Non-Theistic Pagans?

[ravenscape]

I've run into a few non-theistic witches recently, including a couple of Buddhist witches, and have a lot of curiosity about the concept. Are there other pagan paths that non-theists choose? How does belief or non-belief in the supernatural factor into non-theistic paganism. Can someone believe in/practice magic/witchcraft with a purely naturalistic world view?

I hope that I'm not phrasing my questions in an offensive way. I don't mean offense, but am truly curious because of my personal spiritual background.

I deconverted from fundamentalist Christianity in my early 20s. I was an agnostic for many years before becoming interested in Paganism. My entry into Paganism was indirectly a result of experiencing the effectiveness of non-traditional medicine and the inherent correspondences. So, I was first convinced that some of the effective treatments I experienced were not operating according to naturalistic theories as we understand science at present. And from there I semi-reluctantly reopened the whole question of "Is there a Divine?"

Please share your thoughts on non-Theistic Pagan paths.

[Theres]

i practiced witchcraft on and off for 20 years as an agnostic, so i didn't consider myself Pagan either. that changed when i discovered the gods, and i delved deeply into Wicca (well, as deep as it goes, i guess). but as my religious awakening continued i found that Wicca no longer answered my questions or served my needs, and i walked away from it about 18 months ago. now i'm a... hell, i don't know. how about an eclectic pre-Hellenistic non-recon Greek something-or-other Pagan.
yeah, that works... so, anyone else wanna join my religion?

[Auroro]

I'm a nontheistic pagan.

[Aidron]

i practiced witchcraft on and off for 20 years as an agnostic, so i didn't consider myself Pagan either. that changed when i discovered the gods, and i delved deeply into Wicca (well, as deep as it goes, i guess). but as my religious awakening continued i found that Wicca no longer answered my questions or served my needs, and i walked away from it about 18 months ago. now i'm a... hell, i don't know. how about an eclectic pre-Hellenistic non-recon Greek something-or-other Pagan.
yeah, that works... so, anyone else wanna join my religion?


No. You'll likely want me to give you money. [smirks]

I do not believe I am the most obvious or even a true candidate for non-theistic Witchcraft, but I do not believe anything to be unnatural, thus by default all things are natural simply because they exist (as unnatural denotes that which exists outside the confines of nature or that is in some manner twisted).

[ravenscape]

<snip>
I do not believe I am the most obvious or even a true candidate for non-theistic Witchcraft, but I do not believe anything to be unnatural, thus by default all things are natural simply because they exist (as unnatural denotes that which exists outside the confines of nature or that is in some manner twisted).

What about the category of supernatural phenomena? Is magic entirely explainable by science? Will magic eventually be entirely explainable in terms of physics, biochemistry, psychology?

[Aidron]

What about the category of supernatural phenomena? Is magic entirely explainable by science? Will magic eventually be entirely explainable in terms of physics, biochemistry, psychology?


Supernatural? So it's natural and super? Would that be the natural stuff that got a gold star on it? [smirks]

Honestly, I don't even care for the term supernatural. Like extraordinary (why would I want 'extra' of something that is ordinary) it's just another example of how poorly constructed the english language is.

I believe that magic can be explained by science... some day. Things take time, we couldn't always explain gravity or how the celestial bodies moved, but with the passing of time who knows what we can explain.

That said, I believe there are some things we will likely never be able to explain, magic just isn't one of them.

[ravenscape]

Supernatural? So it's natural and super? Would that be the natural stuff that got a gold star on it? [smirks]

Honestly, I don't even care for the term supernatural. Like extraordinary (why would I want 'extra' of something that is ordinary) it's just another example of how poorly constructed the english language is.

I believe that magic can be explained by science... some day. Things take time, we couldn't always explain gravity or how the celestial bodies moved, but with the passing of time who knows what we can explain.

That said, I believe there are some things we will likely never be able to explain, magic just isn't one of them.

Eh...I've been spending too much time in apologetics debates lately. :imout:

I'm not sure which group decided that the Divine by whatever name belongs in the "supernatural" bin.

Anyway, I agree with you regarding the natural basis of magic. Though I'm kind of surprised that phenomena such as raising energy and grounding don't show up in tests as some sort of biochemical energy if it truly comes from within the practitioner. Mental states are measurable, but apparently the most basic of energy manipulations we typically talk about in Pagan circles can't be measured. Or scientists are looking under the wrong rocks when they try to measure it.

Anyway, it's a good confirmation, because my going in assumption was that an atheist involved in some form of Craft wouldn't see anything unnatural or supernatural in what they do.

[Theres]

Honestly, I don't even care for the term supernatural. Like extraordinary (why would I want 'extra' of something that is ordinary) it's just another example of how poorly constructed the english language is.
'extra' in this case means 'outside of' the ordinary. like extraterrestrial doesn't mean more terrestrial.

[ravenscape]

'extra' in this case means 'outside of' the ordinary. like extraterrestrial doesn't mean more terrestrial.

Exactly: Natural - explainable by science. Supernatural - outside the realm of scientific explanation.

Theres, you practiced without a theistic framework first, and now are searching for a theistic framework? Is that the right way to describe the evolution of your path?

Is there a quantitative or qualitative difference in your craft? If yes, what is different?

[Theres]

Exactly: Natural - explainable by science. Supernatural - outside the realm of scientific explanation.

Theres, you practiced without a theistic framework first, and now are searching for a theistic framework? Is that the right way to describe the evolution of your path?

Is there a quantitative or qualitative difference in your craft? If yes, what is different?
yes, that's pretty much it. i think i have my framework now, but i'm not sure i'll ever be able to define it. no matter.

as far as comparing the two, i'm not sure i can. the time period we're talking about here is over 30 years, so i'm not sure what was spiritual growth and what was just 'growing up'.
however i can say that what i practiced way back then was much more ego driven. i was never what you might call a fluffbunny (oh man, that's funny! lol), but my appraoach was pretty superficial... at least it seems so to me now.

but these days everything in my life focusses me in one way or another toward Her, and this is only partly by design. as a result i have withdrawn from much of the community activities i used to enjoy so much as a Wiccan. i rarely do group ritual, and when i do it is only if the magick is relevant (like this upcoming Samhain). everything else seems distracting to me now, and so i choose to remain focussed, even if it means that i, like Hekate, must walk in "desolate places".
this has meant having to deal with a lot of misunderstanding from those i used to associate with in the Pagan community, but that is their problem not mine. at this point in my life i can honestly say that i am seeing clearer than i ever have before, and i'm not stepping backwards just to socialise.

so, i'm not sure if any of that clarifies your question, but there it is.

[ravenscape]

yes, that's pretty much it. i think i have my framework now, but i'm not sure i'll ever be able to define it. no matter.

as far as comparing the two, i'm not sure i can. the time period we're talking about here is over 30 years, so i'm not sure what was spiritual growth and what was just 'growing up'.
however i can say that what i practiced way back then was much more ego driven. i was never what you might call a fluffbunny (oh man, that's funny! lol), but my appraoach was pretty superficial... at least it seems so to me now.

but these days everything in my life focusses me in one way or another toward Her, and this is only partly by design. as a result i have withdrawn from much of the community activities i used to enjoy so much as a Wiccan. i rarely do group ritual, and when i do it is only if the magick is relevant (like this upcoming Samhain). everything else seems distracting to me now, and so i choose to remain focussed, even if it means that i, like Hekate, must walk in "desolate places".
this has meant having to deal with a lot of misunderstanding from those i used to associate with in the Pagan community, but that is their problem not mine. at this point in my life i can honestly say that i am seeing clearer than i ever have before, and i'm not stepping backwards just to socialise.

so, i'm not sure if any of that clarifies your question, but there it is.

It is a deep answer to a shallow question. Many thanks. I will think on what you've shared :)

[Aidron]

'extra' in this case means 'outside of' the ordinary. like extraterrestrial doesn't mean more terrestrial.


I know, but I have major issues with the english language and this is just one of them. It's just too easily misinterpreted if you approach it from a common sense and outsider perspective.

[Auroro]

My personal non-theistic beliefs are at a bit of a lingering status. I am not sure if I believe there are gods and goddess or none at all, I don't and won't believe there is only one. That's a bit childish and naive.

[ravenscape]

My personal non-theistic beliefs are at a bit of a lingering status. I am not sure if I believe there are gods and goddess or none at all, I don't and won't believe there is only one. That's a bit childish and naive.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm curious why you think that one deity is naive compared to polytheism.

[equinox2]

Ravenscape wrote:

Are there other pagan paths that non-theists choose? How does belief or non-belief in the supernatural factor into non-theistic paganism. Can someone believe in/practice magic/witchcraft with a purely naturalistic world view?

(I added the bold)


Sorry for not seeing this question earlier.

The answer - YES, definitely.

It's called, as you might have guessed, "Naturalistic Paganism". There are some of us Naturalistic Pagans around, both here at MW and elsewhere. A webpage that talks a little about it is www.naturalpagan.org (www.naturalpagan.org) , and there is a yahoo group at


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturalistic_paganism/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturalistic_paganism/)


My experience with Naturalistic Paganism is here: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap8.htm (http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap8.htm)


Basically, we don't believe anything without first having good evidence - and good evidence means repeatable, experimentally testable results. Now, I know that most Pagans do believe in the supernatural, and that's fine - we can all worship together, even if some of us see things symbolically, and other see the same things literally. Mutual tolerance (indeed, welcoming acceptance) is easy since none of us believe in a Hell that is waiting for those with "wrong" beliefs. Thus, if I think your beliefs are "not correct", that's fine with me - just as if you liked vanilla ice cream and I liked strawberry best. Notice that I couldn't logically do that if I believed in a Hell based on belief, because then your liking vanilla would be literally the most dangerous thing imaginable.

So my best guess for the afterlife is that there is none, and that there are no gods, or at least none that I've seen good evidence (see above) for. I celebrate the seasons, the wheel of the year, and other pagan ideas as metaphors for helping to enjoy THIS life. You also might enjoy my webpage below, especially my spiritual history, which is somewhat similar to yours. In short, I was raised Catholic, deconverted to an agnostic, then added a Pagan approach to form a full and fun spirituality. I'm now a scientist, a father, and a Naturalistic Pagan.

Is that the kind of thing you were wondering about?

Blessed be-

[ravenscape]

Yes equinox! That's pretty much spot on. I also depend to a large extent on what's experimentally repeatable in my own practice and observances. And what isn't verifiable falls into that big pit of "I don't know", "I'm not sure", and "the jury's out". So, in some ways I'm as agnostic as ever :).

I'm glad you checked the thread out. I'll take a look at the websites you recommended.

[equinox2]

Hmmm.... With the new categories up top, I wonder where this path (Naturalistic Paganism) should go?

It probably fits best with the Celtic/Druid category, since that is already sort of a mix, and much of the rituals can be the same. Perhaps similar things could be said for the Wicca category too.

Whever it goes, it's a little tricky since the worldview is so radically different - all of the others up there usually believe in some kind of supernatural, some kind of spirits or gods, while Naturalistic Paganism doens't. What do you think?

Brightest blessings-

[Agaliha]

Right now I consider myself a non-thiestic Pagan. I don't believe the Gods are there, active and interceeding anymore, I never really did now that I think about it [I was fooling myself, heh]. I see the Gods as symbols and metaphors for nature, humans, and life...distant and far away.
I also think when it comes to the Gods, what you believe and what is in your head is what makes it...real. For example, if you believe that your Gods love you...then well they will.
I grew up in a non-mainline faith with no God/Diety that was worshiped, no holidays, no rituals, no place of worship, no holy books...it wasn't athiesm, but close. There was talk to God-- but it was in a distant way, there was talk of reincarnation, astral travel, souls...things like that. I was with that faith till I was 11 when I declared myself Athiest. A few years later and things changed-- I began my endless search for a Faith, belief, religion that fit me. The problem was I was trying to find a religion that fit not my beliefs, but fit my views and opinions and views of the ideal. For example, the ideal view of diety to me is Henothiesm, many connected to one, unique yet connected. I found I don't believe it though and though deep down...
So here I am, sort of full circle, heh. I'm more interested in the Gods and religion in the sense of anthropology, archaelogy and thelolgy-- I always was, even when I was a child. I like to read, research, learn, understand them-- in a scholarly way. My family even jokes that I should get my major in theology-- comparitive religions.
Anyway, I don't really know what the future holds and anything, but right now I am content as a non-theistic pagan.

[equinox2]

Belle Terre, and others -

In addition to the Naturalistic Pagans Yahoo group in my sig, I've just started reading Pagaian, by Glenys Livingstone - it seems to also have this Naturalistic Pagan approach.

I'll post how I like it when i'm done.

_vb_ May you mind soar like the eagle-

[Agaliha]

Cool, I'll check out you group and stuff :). Thanks, Equinox.

[Agaliha]

I think I finally found a definition that explains my beliefs....and perphaps it will explain others as well:

functional polytheism – Symbolic use of polytheistic theology and terminology as a ritual tool or useful concept, without literal belief in the existence of multiple gods.

archetypal polytheism – Belief in multiple gods/goddesses as representing psychological (Jungian) archetypes, or elements of the human personality; belief that there are a relatively small set of unique gods/goddesses, and that gods/goddesses from different cultures who have similar personalities and domains are representations of the same god/goddess.

From: http://www.ksu.edu/psg/handout1.doc (http://www.ksu.edu/psg/handout1.doc)

I'm thinking if there is such a thing "Symbolic Polythiesm" would apply as well.

Does that fit with any other Non-Thiests ?

[EternalMaiden]

For me, witchcraft was always an option no matter the religious/spiritual background I was grounded in.

Being a natural witch, I see all magic as a way of ensuring your outcome, rather than letting the winds lay the seeds in their paths.
I still find witchcraft to be a bit foreward, but honestly I don't see a difference from praying and using witchcraft.

I hardly ever do spells or incantations, my lack of faith in Gods as idols leaves little room for invocation. I have to personally understand the concept I seek, fully, before I can provoke it in my life. I do use Gods for clarity, though. They don't seem to mind...

So I myself, am a nature's way type of witch!

Not at all offended, I enjoyed your asking :D

(Ooh, symbols are very powerful. I love props, but symbols speak a very familiar language to us. Visually.)

[ravenscape]

I think I finally found a definition that explains my beliefs....and perphaps it will explain others as well:

functional polytheism – Symbolic use of polytheistic theology and terminology as a ritual tool or useful concept, without literal belief in the existence of multiple gods.

archetypal polytheism – Belief in multiple gods/goddesses as representing psychological (Jungian) archetypes, or elements of the human personality; belief that there are a relatively small set of unique gods/goddesses, and that gods/goddesses from different cultures who have similar personalities and domains are representations of the same god/goddess.

From: http://www.ksu.edu/psg/handout1.doc (http://www.ksu.edu/psg/handout1.doc)

I'm thinking if there is such a thing "Symbolic Polythiesm" would apply as well.

Does that fit with any other Non-Thiests ?

Wow. Functional and Archetypical polytheism come a lot closer to nailing my beliefs than any labels I've found so far. I've tried to embrace pantheism, because true polytheism is kind of a non-starter for me, at least at this point.

But, from a "what I do" perspective, I find myself using and manipulating polytheism on a Jungian basis in rituals and meditations. If I were to try to describe what I'm doing, I would say that many centuries of trancework and astral work by believers (and non-believers) have created frameworks for (divine?) energy to inhabit and animate. I use and add my own energies and imagination to those frameworks.

Anyhoo...I'm attempting to be a theist, but it's quite a stretch for me to go much past pantheism.

[Agaliha]

Wow. Functional and Archetypical polytheism come a lot closer to nailing my beliefs than any labels I've found so far.

Same with me :) I was going to find more info about them, if I get anything good/helpful I will post it here.

But, from a "what I do" perspective, I find myself using and manipulating polytheism on a Jungian basis in rituals and meditations.

Could you give an example? Or just PM me if you don't want to post it.
I'm curious how and what one would do.

Anyhoo...I'm attempting to be a theist, but it's quite a stretch for me...

Heh. Same here. I've tried for about 8 years off and on and it did not work for me ...and it wasn't being true to myself and my beliefs...even though I would like to believe in the Gods like everyone else done...I just [I]can't. Never could really.

[ravenscape]

Could you give an example? Or just PM me if you don't want to post it.
I'm curious how and what one would do.


A simple example would be calling the Quarters when casting a circle. Although not a universal association in circle work, the association of particular elements and Watchtowers/Guardians with the different cardinal directions has an accumulation of psychic presence, making it a matter of far less energy to animate than a unique-to-me visualization in trance or circle-work.

I don't really buy the male-female polarization of divinity/attributes/energy, so I guess it's not quite correct to call my conceptualization of the Divine "Jungian". But I do feel that I activate archetypical conceptions of Deities when I attempt to work in that way, for say, a healing ritual. Of late, I've been moving away from that sort of work, though.

[Birdy]

Thanks Agaliha!

I though I was alone. That definitely fits with me and it's exactly what I have been fighting with myself over for a long time. I have a hard time of it, but the symbol of the gods, it... concentrates the essence of.. er.. unifies.. er.. acts as a spiritual focus.. for... something. I can't explain it very well.

It's important to have a direct relationship with what is but I think every person has different layers and ways of thinking, I can't explain this either. There is a place for straight pantheism and there is a place for symbols and mythology, they are like... can you help me out here Agaliha?
This is strange territory to me.

[Agaliha]

Thanks Agaliha!

I though I was alone. That definitely fits with me and it's exactly what I have been fighting with myself over for a long time. I have a hard time of it, but the symbol of the gods, it... concentrates the essence of.. er.. unifies.. er.. acts as a spiritual focus.. for... something. I can't explain it very well.

It's important to have a direct relationship with what is but I think every person has different layers and ways of thinking, I can't explain this either. There is a place for straight pantheism and there is a place for symbols and mythology, they are like... can you help me out here Agaliha?
This is strange territory to me.

You're welcome. :) You're not alone.
As of today I am back on my Pantheistic path. I just posted a thread in this forum (Conflicted & Confused (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147817) & here my AotA thread (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2946704#post2946704)) about my issues...and I was lead away for some time, but I think it's time I face the music so to speak. :lol: I am a Pantheist.
What would you like me to help you out with? I don't know if I can, but I'm willing to try. I've basically had Pantheistic beliefs for a long time, but for various reasons I keep trying to be theistic...and it doesn't work for me.

[ravenscape]

Wow...reading back over this thread has been quite the eye-opener. I'm so glad it was bumped today!

I feel a lot more comfortable calling myself a pantheistic pagan today than I did a year ago. My beliefs haven't changed much, but I don't have that feeling now that I *should* be trying to believe in a different way.

Reading over this thread, I'm amazed at the thoughtful sharing that you each have brought to this topic. So, I have some new questions for you.

Do you post or read in the MW Path forums? If so, which ones do you feel are good fits, where the discussions are beneficial to you?

[Agaliha]

Do you post or read in the MW Path forums?
Do you mean in the Pantheism section or others?
Either way, yes I post and read various threads and sub-forums in Paths.

If so, which ones do you feel are good fits, where the discussions are beneficial to you?
Well none fit my spirituality no matter how hard I try. The one I post the most in is the Eastern Paths because Hinduism and I mesh well, but I'm not theistic. From what I understand Hinduism supports a pantheisic view, though I don't know if one can be pantheist alone and be Hindu.
I also post in the Christian paths area because (unlike many Pantheists I believe in reincarnation and past lives) I've had a strong Catholic past life, I was a monk. I know this for a fact. So I have a draw to Catholicsm and various elements of it, I think because of that. But as my personal spirituality? No.
Then I just reply to various threads here and there. One of my life long interests is religions, so I enjoy learning what people believe and all that. The problem occurs when I try to follow them and be theistic. :lol:

[ravenscape]

I think I originally started this thread in the Just Pagan forum...If there was a pantheism path forum at the time, I wasn't aware of it.

I hadn't really noticed this forum until the thread was bumped. I'd kind of given up on the Paths forums for the most part, though I enjoy reading some of the Discordia/Taco/etc threads, and some of the Celtic path threads, too.

Despite finding people here and there at MW with whom I enjoy discussions like this one, I just don't think I've found an area of the forum where I fit very well. I'd like to change that in the next few months. If not, then I think I need to spend my energies on another forum somewhere.

[Agaliha]

I think I originally started this thread in the Just Pagan forum...If there was a pantheism path forum at the time, I wasn't aware of it.
Ah, it (Paths: Pantheism (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=285)) was added a little while ago. It wasn't always here.


Despite finding people here and there at MW with whom I enjoy discussions like this one, I just don't think I've found an area of the forum where I fit very well. I'd like to change that in the next few months. If not, then I think I need to spend my energies on another forum somewhere.

I don't exactly fit in with the Gods and Goddesses area, but that's where I post the most. I guide there too. I enjoy researching and finding info for people and mythology is one of my interest so I find it fun. I don't really get anything spiritual out of that forum though.
I guess my point is you don't have to fit into any area here to have fun and contribute. :)

[ravenscape]

Ah, it (Paths: Pantheism (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=285)) was added a little while ago. It wasn't always here.



I don't exactly fit in with the Gods and Goddesses area, but that's where I post the most. I guide there too. I enjoy researching and finding info for people and mythology is one of my interest so I find it fun. I don't really get anything spiritual out of that forum though.
I guess my point is you don't have to fit into any area here to have fun and contribute. :)

I'm not so much concerned about a fit in terms of "oh cool! all these people are on a path like mine" as in terms of a sympatico fit -- where I feel I'm contributing and also growing in some way as a result of my energies.

Not sure if that makes sense or not. I think there's something worthwhile here at MW - I'm just having trouble finding it - or cooperating to make it.

[cheddarsox]

Agaliha,

It's nice to have you "back" as a pantheist. lol.

I am not confused with my own faith, but I find that it confuses others when I speak of it...I very much feel like a theist. I believe in the Divine, and feel I have a 24/7 relationship with it. Yet, I don't have a deity, a personal "god/des", so many say I am atheist, or a wannabe, or a faker.

Pantheism is a very different concept..or rather set of concepts, about our relationship with the universe. Some of us experience it more theistically, others atheistically. I think the thing is...in a culture that is dualistic, there aren't good words to explain and discuss a faith that is neither clearly one or the other.

I have friends who identify themselves as atheistic pantheists, yet when we discuss our beliefs and practices, they are nearly identical.

Most people haven't had many encounters with pantheism, so they, understandably, try to fit it into what they know. But it is different, and requires coming to an understanding of it on its own terms. I don't know if we will ever exist in percentages large enough for my culture to become familiar with this set of concepts.

Usually, when I get into a discussion with someone, they ask me about my faith...and end up by saying...'you're confused. God is a male spirit in the sky, if you don't believe that, you're an atheist, why don't you just admit it." There is just no place in their minds for a third option (and I believe there are more than three, but since they are stuck at two...no point in going there)

I really enjoy discussing with other pantheists, to see how we self identify, and the language we choose to use to describe our beliefs and practices. Again, I often find that language is the "barrier" even among pantheists, we are using different terms, all imperfect, because they are borrowed from a language that does not come out of a culture that has a concept of pantheism, to describe the same things. And our use of different terms, sometimes comes off as our beliefs differing more than they really do.

In the end, most of my beliefs are the same as atheistic pantheists, though my practice is very different. I expect this is due to my personality and upbringing. I am a religious tempered person, and I don't have a lot of negative religious experiences in my past that I am reacting to. For me, religion has been enriching, so I continue to use the traditions that enriched my life. For others, for whom religion was a negative in their lives, they feel they want to distance themselves from it's practices and pitfalls.

Still, I hope we can stay in conversation enough to learn from each other and to create some pantheistic language that will serve us all.

cheddar

[Birdy]

You're welcome. :) You're not alone.
As of today I am back on my Pantheistic path. I just posted a thread in this forum (Conflicted & Confused (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147817) & here my AotA thread (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2946704#post2946704)) about my issues...and I was lead away for some time, but I think it's time I face the music so to speak. :lol: I am a Pantheist.
What would you like me to help you out with? I don't know if I can, but I'm willing to try. I've basically had Pantheistic beliefs for a long time, but for various reasons I keep trying to be theistic...and it doesn't work for me.

It's okay, I think I have it sort of clear in my head now (largely thanks to the discussions in other threads), and I can sort of explain it. But I just had to post just after new years and about 3 hrs. of sleep :lol:

The reason I ask is because I have never been theistic, ever. I can't claim to have the experience to really understand it. I do not want to be theistic, yet I find power in the image of certain deities. To me they are neither imaginary, nor literally existing beings. I find deity to be a human construct but one which concentrates and expresses what we know and think and feel spiritually in a form. They are like avatars of The Divine. They are like the language with which we talk about it.

Does that make any sense?

[Eleisawolf]

It's okay, I think I have it sort of clear in my head now (largely thanks to the discussions in other threads), and I can sort of explain it. But I just had to post just after new years and about 3 hrs. of sleep :lol:

The reason I ask is because I have never been theistic, ever. I can't claim to have the experience to really understand it. I do not want to be theistic, yet I find power in the image of certain deities. To me they are neither imaginary, nor literally existing beings. I find deity to be a human construct but one which concentrates and expresses what we know and think and feel spiritually in a form. They are like avatars of The Divine. They are like the language with which we talk about it.

Does that make any sense?

It does. I like the imagery, actually.

And that wouldn't negate the fact that these avatars do visit some of us. Some of us are better able to connect with them, some without them. That doesn't make it better or worse one way or the other, just different ways of approaching the spirituality we feel with the realistic world-view that we treasure. And it certainly doesn't make the Gods themselves real or unreal. Anything that affects the human psyche so powerfully is certainly real.

On another board where I participate, a discussion has occurred regarding the difference between objective reality and subjective reality. Deity, in my opinion, falls into the latter area. However, it is a vague concept and difficult to pinpoint.

Thanks for sharing, Birdy.

Peace

[faery songs]

I'm definitely a non-theistic pagan. I think that whatever we think of as supernatural just doesn't have explanations yet, or maybe never will. It's not our place to know everything.

[ravenscape]

Hard to imagine that any entity would have that place. It's our challenge to learn as much as we can.