Witchcraft as a religion. [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Mouse

October 27th, 2005, 06:51 AM

I'm writing to share my path. My personal beliefs. I don't want to argue, I'm just adding one more opinion to the pile.

Witchcraft is my religion. To me, witchcraft isn't a practice, and it never was. Magick is a practice, but witchcraft is more than just magick.
Some argue that it might not be a practice but it isn't a religion, if anything it is a way of life. But I see it this way, every religion when practiced correctly is a way of life.

A common arguement is that religion must have dogma. Witchcraft teaches many things. One core belief, the foundation of everything, is balance. Being balanced as a person, and understanding balance completely. Walking a path that is neutral. This means you confess to being neither good nor bad, neither white nor black. It's looking at both sides to every situation at all times, and recongnising the repercussions that will be casued from your chosen course of action. It doesn't mean choseing to do good all the time, because at times doing something usually considered good could in fact be cruel. For example, If someone is dying and you can heal them, should you? If healing them will only prolong their pain should you still attempt to lenghten their life? If death is the only relief available to a person, is it still wrong to murder them?
These examples are extreme cases, but they make you examine the difference between doing what is good and doing what is right. Every situation is different, and a witch needs to gather all the infomation available and decide for themself what is the best course of action useing their individual moral compas. Balance also means being unbiased.

A personification of balance, is the God and Goddess, or Lady and Lord. The Gods (and I'm refering to every god or goddess ever worshiped) are energies. It is us humans that give them physical discriptions. We put them into shapes that we can understand and relate to. Balance doesn't nessesarily mean two, nor does it always imply even numbers. One god/dess with several aspects can be just as balanced as a whole pantheon of gods, just as on a scale one tonne of feathers weighs the same as a one tonne lump of rock. Witchcraft teaches that we do not choose our patron or matron god or goddess, If a particular god or goddess wishes for us to serve them they will come forth and tell us so. But the core of all magick, (or energy, or chi, or mana -whatever you wish to call it) comes from the gods. The gods come from our understanding of the divine energies. The divine energies are magick. It's all connected.

Every living being has inside it a store of this power to do what they see fit. We'll call this "personal power". Some have this in abundance, some have next to nothing, and some have it but can not reach it.

Everything in nature that isn't specifically a living being is alive with a similar energy, but that energy is influenced by the physical form. (for example fire, gems and crystals and water). We can call this "natural power".

People, (and possibly other animals, who knows?) can use "personal power" to draw or channel "natural power". However, they must ask or have "divine power" freely lent to them for each individual requirement that they may need assistance fullfilling.

The theroy and practical use of this power are core teachings of witchcraft. Although the ways which it is used are many, the responsible use of magick is still plays a major part in witchcraft dogma, as does how magick is performed. Not all spells work. This is for a reason.

Dogma is a set of core beliefs, but core belifs do not have to be a list of do's and dont's.

Witchcraft is primarily family orentated, and is best practiced in groups. If this isn't possible, and indeed for many it is not, that that witch must seek out an experienced teacher or coven and become an apprentice. Witchcraft can not be learned soley from books, in fact a lot of witchcraft can not and should not be written down.

Witchcraft is being a part of nature, untamed and raw. It's experienceing the change of seasons, not just celebrating them. Witchcraft and spellcraft are two different things, just as wicca and witchcraft are two different things.

What I have written here so far no where near covers the subject truly adequitly but I have no desire to write a book, this a very general outline only. Practicing witchraft means, to me, never reaching full portential. To me, practicing rather than living is just dabbeling, just playing. It would be the same as, for example, going to church but not following the teachings.

I have not included references to books, websites or people to back up what I say for a reason. History is written by those that won the war, and real witchcraft is not learned from books, it is traditonally passed on verbally. I know that my way of life is not merely a practice but a true path, as valid as any other. I would not persume the right to say that christianity or wicca or druidism was not a religion, so it isn't fair for others to assume that witchcraft is not a religion. However, any religion if carried out devoid of true faith is just an empty practice.

thankyou for your time.
~Miriam

raven grimassi

October 30th, 2005, 12:06 AM

To me, witchcraft isn't a practice, and it never was. Magick is a practice, but witchcraft is more than just magick.

Well, there is certainly a great deal of literature and historical documentation spanning over 2500 years that appears to depict Witchcraft within a religious context. It is actually only within the last three decades or so that some people have taken the position that Witchcraft is a practice and not a religion. This is essentially the view of anthropologists, and this view is rooted largely in the study of the African witch doctor figure (which is a non-European perspective).

The ancient Greeks referred to Witches as practitioners of illicit religion, which meant a religion not sanctioned by the State. However, the reference to religion (and not just a practice) is what the material reveals. A good research source here is Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome, edited by Bengt Ankarloo and Stuart Clark. The contributions by Georg Luck and Richard Gordon are of particular interest.

Among the earliest Witch figures is Medea, who is depicted as a priestess of Hecate. The works of Horace, Ovid and Lucan include references to Witches calling upon several goddess figures (particularly Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina/Persephone). Here again is a religious connotation.

During the Christian era, Witches are depicted as worshipping Satan, which bears a religious theme. It is not until modern times that the religious connotations disappear, which does not negate centuries of a contrary view.

Personally, I view Witchcraft as an ancient religion that has evolved over the centuries. Today some people practice Witchcraft without any religious connection or philosophy. But, as I mentioned, this is a relatively modern phenomena.

Geministar

November 6th, 2005, 01:47 PM

Amen! I have always been taught, and read that witchcraft in and of itself is NOT a religion. This never felt right to me and both of these posts on this thread bring out the reasons why beautifully. To me, anything that you feel in your heart to follow for all of your life, is your religion.I follow my own way, what feels right to me and toss anything that I learn that doesnt feel right aside. To me witchcraft IS a religion and has alot of the things that other religions have, but not in a typical way. Its good that you have posted this thread to explain to people who have been taught that Witchcraft is a religion, and why.

Mouse

November 7th, 2005, 03:20 AM

Thankyou both for your information and support.
This is something I'm very passionant about and I apreciate all feed back, doesnt matter if it is something that re-afirms my beliefs or if it is to challenge my views... It all helps me learn. :)
It's nice to know i'm not alone in my beliefs as well.

Athene

November 29th, 2005, 09:51 AM

Hi there,

As you've opened this up as a discussion thread then I'll post my views too. :) These are of course all my personal opinions based upon my life experience and teachings from my family. So at all times I speak about traditional witchery, not modern beliefs or ideas (as these can be anything you want them to be). You seem a little annoyed so I want to make this clear.

Witchcraft is a practice. Any practice can become a religion if you choose it to be. Gardening can become a religion.

If you have created tenets for your practice and have specific deity then it can be classed as a religion, but witchcraft has no such tenets or deity for most every witch I've ever met. You say you have 'beliefs', well so do I in regards to witchdom working within certain paradigms. I am what many call a hereditary witch, and I have travelled the world meeting witches (traditional, hereditary I'm speaking of) and we all share the same paradigms. But no witch claims these to be a religion.

In fact, religion is an antithesis to traditional witchery.

Some quick points:

Much literature that I've read refers to people (mostly women) that I recognise as sorceresses, not witches. (examples include Medea and Circe).
It's natural for people within societies to be inclined towards religion, so witchcraft has influenced many religions and subsequently can become 'religious'.
'Witchcraft' linguistically speaking refers to a practice, a craft.
Anyone at all can practice it, you do not have to believe in any god or goddess or even be a witch.
Balance is not a core belief in witchdom.
The concept of a Lord and Lady is totally non-witch.
"Witchcraft is primarily family orentated, and is best practiced in groups."
This is not any belief that I know of. There is a bloodline in witchery but 'primarily family orientated' or 'practised in groups' is not part of it.
"If this isn't possible, and indeed for many it is not, that that witch must seek out an experienced teacher or coven and become an apprentice"
Coven teaching is not of traditional witchery.
"real witchcraft is not learned from books, it is traditonally passed on verbally."
I agree.

Now, hopefully you've read carefully. At no point am I saying you cannot believe in balance or Lord and Lady, etc, and be a witch. As I said above, if you have pulled things together along with a god or two, then yes, it can be classed as a religion. But that is a totally different thing from claiming outright as fact that, "witchcraft is a religion".

You stated

Some argue that it might not be a practice but it isn't a religion, if anything it is a way of life. But I see it this way, every religion when practiced correctly is a way of life.

But this is circular and does not explain why you consider witchcraft to be a religion.

It might be helpful to understand what you mean by 'religion', as well as what the word actually means.

Religion does not mean way of life. The word, as many do, has evolved over time, it once meant something like 'bond', 'tied fast', 'connect', or 'obligation'. If we still adhered to this Latin usage your premises could work. But as it stands today, and has for many years, it specifically refers to being bound to a god/gods.
It's illogical for a practice to have gods, and core witchery has no gods. So with my understanding of all three, the word religion applied to anything witch is incorrect.

Thing is, this is all very easily taken care of by saying that 'witch' or 'witchery' is your religion. While I would still disagree in general, I would be more inclined to accept its validity in your eyes rather than the craft (a practice, skill) being a religion.

I support your right to call whatever you do a religion, but don't be offended when others say it isn't, as most/all traditional witches would disagree with you, so have no problem with others saying it isn't one.

In fact, much that is deemed witchcraft is just folk magic and not of the witch. And, a craft of the witch that can be practiced by absolutely anyone being hailed as a religion of the witch is potentially incredibly offensive to witches.
Fortunately, witches aren't so easily offended by such debates. :weirdsmil

I appreciate you will probably disagree with almost everything I've said, but these beliefs are held by many of us. It matters nothing to me if you believe me or not. But if you are interested in 'real witchcraft' as you say, you might like to know. And that's what MW is all about - exploring, learning, debating.....

stay cheerful, peace

Nemesis Descending

November 29th, 2005, 12:35 PM

These are of course all my personal opinions based upon my life experience and teachings from my family. So at all times I speak about traditional witchery, not modern beliefs or ideas (as these can be anything you want them to be).

Hmmm, that's curious, because on your website you say you were never taught the ways of your ancestors: “While my ancestors were strege, I was not taught in their ways”.

You also state that you are a “Mystical Christian Bruja” (Spanish/Mexican) and you refer to yourself as a "restorationist Spanish Italian-trad-influenced hereditary bruja". But on your webpage you claim your lineage is strega. What's up??
Where exactly does your traditional knowledge come from since you apparently have no personal training?

Darakash

November 29th, 2005, 01:19 PM

Mouse, could you expand on these two statements from your first post?

But the core of all magick, (or energy, or chi, or mana -whatever you wish to call it) comes from the gods. The gods come from our understanding of the divine energies. The divine energies are magick. It's all connected.

People, (and possibly other animals, who knows?) can use "personal power" to draw or channel "natural power". However, they must ask or have "divine power" freely lent to them for each individual requirement that they may need assistance fullfilling.

I am not sure if I am understanding you here...are you saying that magick itself cannot be practiced without God/dess being involved?

Mouse

November 29th, 2005, 10:08 PM

Athene, I was under the impression that the paths forum was not a place for debate, if you would like to argue tho I'd be more than happy to... In the right place.
The MW respect rule stops me from saying what i would like to say, however, I will ask you this: since when was "witchdom" actually a word?

Darakash, I'm happy to try and explain this further. :)

I'm not saying that you can't practice magick without involving the Gods, As far as i'm aware CM is magick that doesn't require the assistance of Gods, and spellcraft is another area where you can use "personal power" (or combine "personal power" with "natural power") and still acheve the goal without asking the Gods for help.
I'm saying that "divine power" is the most potent type of power and it belongs to the Gods, who are beings capable of thought, and if someone wants to utilize "divine power" they must ask/pray. I'm also saying that all magick originates with the gods (whomever you believe them to be) but we are each given our own share. For example, parents earn the money so all the money in that family comes from them, but they give their children an alowance with which they can do as they see fit.

Each one of us has inside a store of "power" or "magick" that we are able to use for whatever we want, be it good or bad. We dont have to ask permission to use it. But if the power we have isn't enough, we can ask the Gods to lend us some. (Just as the children could ask for a little extra money if their own alowance didnt cover the cost of the item they wanted)

I hope that makes more scence, but if it doesn't I'm willing to try again.

AlleyCat

November 29th, 2005, 10:39 PM

If it matters to you not whether she believes what you say or not then why write it in such a way that you appear to be trying to undermine her beliefs and shove your own down her mousie throat? Just wondering,

Blessings to you all

AlleyCat

November 29th, 2005, 10:46 PM

BeigeAllen

November 29th, 2005, 11:50 PM

Oh Athene I was also wondering if you go by the name BeigeAllen, just asking because you're writing style and the way you set out your arguements have very distinct similarities is all...just asking,

Cheers

Alley Cat

Thanks for the compliment, but no, we are not the same person. Though I do like the writing style she has. I like Mouse's too though we butt heads somewhere else. He at least disagrees with me intelligently. Haven't seen much of your yet Alleycat, but I have liked what I saw, and your graphics are eyecatching.

Athena's post mostly sums up my views on the subject.

Witchcraft is a practice. Any practice can become a religion if you choose it to be. Gardening can become a religion.

If you have created tenets for your practice and have specific deity then it can be classed as a religion, but witchcraft has no such tenets or deity for most every witch I've ever met. You say you have 'beliefs', well so do I in regards to witchdom working within certain paradigms. I am what many call a hereditary witch, and I have travelled the world meeting witches (traditional, hereditary I'm speaking of) and we all share the same paradigms. But no witch claims these to be a religion.

In fact, religion is an antithesis to traditional witchery.

Some quick points:

Much literature that I've read refers to people (mostly women) that I recognise as sorceresses, not witches. (examples include Medea and Circe).
It's natural for people within societies to be inclined towards religion, so witchcraft has influenced many religions and subsequently can become 'religious'.
'Witchcraft' linguistically speaking refers to a practice, a craft.
Anyone at all can practice it, you do not have to believe in any god or goddess or even be a witch.
Balance is not a core belief in witchdom.
The concept of a Lord and Lady is totally non-witch.
"Witchcraft is primarily family orentated, and is best practiced in groups."
This is not any belief that I know of. There is a bloodline in witchery but 'primarily family orientated' or 'practised in groups' is not part of it.
"If this isn't possible, and indeed for many it is not, that that witch must seek out an experienced teacher or coven and become an apprentice"
Coven teaching is not of traditional witchery.
"real witchcraft is not learned from books, it is traditonally passed on verbally."
I agree.
To it I am merely going to add a couple of points:

The term "witchcraft" has been applied to the rites and rituals of any of 2500 different religions. Modern witchcraft adapts the religions of those who come to it, allows them to find whatever they felt was missing from their first religion or from a lack of religion. What witchcraft is to you can be the exact opposite of what it is to someone else, and both of you are right.
The practices under the heading of witchcraft require no specific deity be honored. You can worship Circe, or Thor, or Kermit the Frog, its just an image you use to bend your will to a desired effect.
Religions have both dogma (belief) and tenets(do's and don'ts), witchcraft can have either, neither, or both. For every protection spell there is a spell to be protected from, but not all witches believe in balance. Not all witches follow the Rede, not all witches celebrate the same points on the wheel of the year(some do more, some do less, and some do them all). There is no set moral among all witches, nor do they all practice in the same way. Religions have very specific rites that are performed the same way every time. Witchcraft is as varied as the personalities practicing it, religion has structure.
Pagan religions usually incorporate one or more of the practices or magickal arts of witchcraft. Many newbies confuse being Pagan for being a witch.
Although for many centuries one had to be "of the blood" to be Strega, that is no longer the case. There were blood witches among those Aradia led, and certainly between her time and the late 20th Century, most streghe/strega had been raised in family traditions. But there has long been the inclusion of spouses who appeared interested and so inclined, and a provision for bringing devoted outsiders into one of the clans. Also, children raised in Strega households do not always follow in the same path as their parents, often choosing to wander the variety of ways for many years to learn as many different viewpoints as possible.
Being raised in a family that practices any variety of witchcraft means you do not have to receive formal training to pick up the basics. I can't tell you about how the Strega handle it, but among the Romany, training is four-six hours per day on top of schoolwork. Testing begins at age 16 and lasts until completion, average length of testing is 5 years. However, not all who begin training complete it. Most just pick up the basics and wash out, not everyone is meant to excel, not everyone wants to. However, much of herbalism is less about magick than it is about science and yet herbalism is a form of witchcraft. Both willow bark and aspirin will knock out a headache or drop a fever, the aspirin is convenient, the willowbark tastes better. You do not have to believe in the god of willowbark for it to work.

Then again, this is just how I was raised to look at it. Don't care if you see it my way, I just don't see it yours.
:graduate:

AlleyCat

November 30th, 2005, 12:33 AM

Thanks for clearing that up :-) as you can see from the writing styles you both display are similar in some ways hence my question :-). Thanks for the compliment on my graphic I'm very fond of my puss cat, simple but suits me but sometimes simples the best way to go lol

Blessings to you,

Alley Cat

ObsessedFae86

November 30th, 2005, 05:21 AM

just wondering..i thought Wicca was the religion and witchcraft was all the spells and such without the religious side..?...am i wrong?

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 05:31 AM

Yes, from my point of view, you are wrong :). Wicca and Witchcraft are seperate things, alike in someways, completely different in others.
Witchcraft is more than just magick, and that's what i'm trying to show people with this thread. I'm happy to answer any questions you have.
It's a modern concept that Witchcraft is a practice.

ObsessedFae86

November 30th, 2005, 05:35 AM

I practice Wicca. I never practiced witchcraft and therefore don't know much about it..I just always thought that witchcraft wasn't a religion. Do witches worship deities? like Wiccans? What are the differences?

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 05:52 AM

Witches do worship deities, but in a different kind of way. It's more of a deep respect, like an elderly family member. It's not "respect through fear" as seen in many other religions, and it's not about calling on a God because they have "properties" that can help in a spell.
Many Wiccans aproach the Gods in that way. They build a relationship with a God that can help them at that time, and then move on. With Witchcraft once a God chooses you, you're stuck with them much like family.

The main difference between Wicca and Witchcraft, that most people see, is that Wicca has written tenants that need to be followed, for example the rede. Witches don't have that. They rely on the guidance of their teachers, family and Gods to build within them a moral compas so that with each new situation they can choose to do what is right, because no two situations are exactly the same, what might be the wrong thing to do most of the time might be right in a raer instance (for example think assisted suiside for the terminally ill)

I hope this makes scence. :) I'm not 100% sure exactly what it is you wanted to know, so if I havnt given you a proper answer lemme know.

Athene

November 30th, 2005, 01:39 PM

Hmmm, that's curious, because on your website you say you were never taught the ways of your ancestors: “While my ancestors were strege, I was not taught in their ways”.

You also state that you are a “Mystical Christian Bruja” (Spanish/Mexican) and you refer to yourself as a "restorationist Spanish Italian-trad-influenced hereditary bruja". But on your webpage you claim your lineage is strega. What's up??
Where exactly does your traditional knowledge come from since you apparently have no personal training?

:lol: Well, no witch is ever going to divulge such a thing nor make it clear. I have no interest in promoting myself so widely, or indulging in some sort of ego trip about where my taining has come from, my Knowings are a sacred thing, not a badge. So believe what ever you choose. I teach where I am called and divulge what is necessary. hence the tongue-in-cheek 'label'. Otherwise, I come here to MW, to learn and debate interesting topics. :graduate: I am darkness, silent, merge into the mob, same as everyone else, nothing special, nothingness, you saw nothing ...
Although, can't ever remember saying Mexican....

If it matters to you not whether she believes what you say or not then why write it in such a way that you appear to be trying to undermine her beliefs and shove your own down her mousie throat? Just wondering,

Are you sure you read the whole post??? I believe I took great pains to make it clear that they were my beliefs and I support her right to call what she does whatever she likes. I took great pains for the sensitive people of this forum, but I won't sugar coat every little phrase, sorry, some maturity is essential if we're to discuss spirituality, etc.

Athene, I was under the impression that the paths forum was not a place for debate, if you would like to argue tho I'd be more than happy to... In the right place.
The MW respect rule stops me from saying what i would like to say, however, I will ask you this: since when was "witchdom" actually a word?

I enjoy a debate, but have no desire to argue - what does it matter to me what you believe? That is your business. Who am I to argue with you what you should believe? I'm nobody.

My main stance all boils down to what we proclaim to the world. When somebody makes a statement as if it is a fact, then you're going to be called up on it. If somebody states "witches are X' or 'witches do X', then you've stepped into the firing line. Although I wasn't shooting, honest. :)
'Some witches believe X' or 'My witchcraft is X' is closer to the truth. That's really the main issue. Dozens of Novices will read your post and my interest is some accuracy. Even if I'm wrong, it provides readers with another truth.

Just like you state in your last post "Witches do worship deities, but in a different kind of way."
Some witches worship deities. Adding to that, there are no deities in core witchery.

The second minor one is that linguistically, witchcraft IS a practice - craft = practice. I think what you're talking about is being witch, full stop, but have chosen to call it witchcraft.
The difference between farmer and farming. A farmer may hold certain values etc, but the practice of farming doesn't. This, true, I am debating with you. YET, if you want to call it that, that's you're perogative.
I can understand what you're saying if you're saying being witch is a religion to you, you're saying that being witch is a way of life, it is sacred, it is not something you just do on a whim or 'practice', but who you are and your spiritual path. Yep, great, I get it. That is being witch to you, but it's not being witchcraft.

I know you can't see me, but try to picture a woman with a constant smile on her face - I'm not an ogre, :lol: but I don't sugar-coat and will discuss when I see something that seems untrue to me. This is respect to the witch - assuming you are mature enough to listen as well as speak.

take care

ObsessedFae86

November 30th, 2005, 01:53 PM

Ok..I don't believe that Wiccans worship out of fear. I do understand what you mean though about some religions doing that. I personally don't worship. I HONOR out of respect. I also don't bow down but thats personal(my chosen pantheon is Greek and those deities didn't like their followers to bow) but thats another topic. I understand your point of view about how you feel Witchcraft is a religion. Thats your choice though. I don't support it at all but if it makes you happy and you feel complete. Thats great and I'm sure thats what the Lord and Lady want people to feel. :) Blessed be and thanks for replying Mouse.

Dave the Druid

November 30th, 2005, 03:48 PM

I need to learn more. I was of the mistaken opinion that they were inseperable Whichcraft deriving from Wicca.

BeigeAllen

November 30th, 2005, 03:55 PM

It's a modern concept that Witchcraft is a practice.

Depends on what you mean by modern. The Romany have believed witchcraft to be a practice for the last 1500 years.

BeigeAllen

November 30th, 2005, 03:57 PM

It's a modern concept that Witchcraft is a practice.

Depends on what you mean by modern. The Romany have believed witchcraft to be a practice for the last 1500 years. In fact, its only in the last 70 years that we have seen people trying to assert witchcraft as being a religion.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 07:03 PM

My main stance all boils down to what we proclaim to the world. When somebody makes a statement as if it is a fact, then you're going to be called up on it. If somebody states "witches are X' or 'witches do X', then you've stepped into the firing line. Although I wasn't shooting, honest. :)
'Some witches believe X' or 'My witchcraft is X' is closer to the truth. That's really the main issue. Dozens of Novices will read your post and my interest is some accuracy. Even if I'm wrong, it provides readers with another truth.

Just like you state in your last post "Witches do worship deities, but in a different kind of way."
Some witches worship deities. Adding to that, there are no deities in core witchery.

The second minor one is that linguistically, witchcraft IS a practice - craft = practice. I think what you're talking about is being witch, full stop, but have chosen to call it witchcraft.
The difference between farmer and farming. A farmer may hold certain values etc, but the practice of farming doesn't. This, true, I am debating with you. YET, if you want to call it that, that's you're perogative.
I can understand what you're saying if you're saying being witch is a religion to you, you're saying that being witch is a way of life, it is sacred, it is not something you just do on a whim or 'practice', but who you are and your spiritual path. Yep, great, I get it. That is being witch to you, but it's not being witchcraft.

I know you can't see me, but try to picture a woman with a constant smile on her face - I'm not an ogre, :lol: but I don't sugar-coat and will discuss when I see something that seems untrue to me. This is respect to the witch - assuming you are mature enough to listen as well as speak.

take care

:lol: Well it's true I enjoy a good debate, however I put this thread in this forum so I wouldn't have to do so. In all truth I enjoy being called up on this most of the time because by explaining to others it makes me say out loud what I believe in my heart, and I make sure I know and understand exactly what I'm putting so much faith in.

You didn't answer my question either.. :rolleyes:

Ok, I see that many other people of other faiths call themselves witches, and it might seem I'm speaking about them, when I'm not. So for the sake of arguement from here on in I will call my people (and yea, I'm not the only one with these beliefs, I'm just the only one who stands up and admits it) "Witches". I'll call Wiccan Witches "Wiccans" and other kinds of witches "Magickans". This way no one gets confused.

There is a difference between practicing magick and practicing Witchcraft. But people seem to have forgoten that. There is a lot in Witchcraft that can't be written down, and a lot of witches are hesitant to come forward and declare a difference between themselves and wiccans because they fear loseing the protection that being thrown in with the Wiccans gives them. Just as you will not speak of your training, there are many things in mine that I'm not alowed to voice, not even to my closest friend. But I have chosen to do my best to explain these things to people without breaking any oath. A lot of the magick that the Magickans and Wiccans use has absolutly no resembelence to Witchcraft (as in the religion of the witches).

Witches do worship Deity. Many Magickans do not.

I'm happy to argue (politely) with you. But not here. If you have honest questions I am more than happy to answer them but I'm not here to defend my beliefs, I've done that enough in other threads. I know the majority of the people here don't agree with me and never will. It's understandable for many reasons. For a start, termanology becomes a real problem if witchcraft is seen as a religion rather than a practice, and that's only the begining of it. You don't have to agree with me, and I'm happy that you don't sugar coat what you mean because it's refreshing, but this thread is to give information to those who are interested, not to convert people.

I too am smiling.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 07:13 PM

Depends on what you mean by modern. The Romany have believed witchcraft to be a practice for the last 1500 years. In fact, its only in the last 70 years that we have seen people trying to assert witchcraft as being a religion.

Please read Raven Grimassi's reply at the start of this thread. :)

Philosophia

November 30th, 2005, 07:47 PM

Witches do worship Deity.

So are you calling atheist witch's non-witch's?
And what about Dianic's who don't worship a "God"? They aren't witches because they don't fit into your limited definition of witchcraft?

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 08:01 PM

So are you calling atheist witch's non-witch's?
And what about Dianic's who don't worship a "God"? They aren't witches because they don't fit into your limited definition of witchcraft?

I see that many other people of other faiths call themselves witches, and it might seem I'm speaking about them, when I'm not. So for the sake of arguement from here on in I will call my people (and yea, I'm not the only one with these beliefs, I'm just the only one who stands up and admits it) "Witches". I'll call Wiccan Witches "Wiccans" and other kinds of witches "Magickans". This way no one gets confused.

Dianics to the best of my knowledge are Wiccans, and the Goddess is still a deity. I never said anything about the sex of said deity.
Atheist witches, for the pourpose of this exercise are falling under the heading "Magickans".
I hope I've made this clear for you.

Philosophia

November 30th, 2005, 08:20 PM

But I'm not a Wiccan, I'm a Witch. I'm also a Dianic who doesn't worship any "gods" (though I do have great reverence to Thoth) so by your definition I'll also be unbalanced.

Elavon

November 30th, 2005, 08:29 PM

Why can't you believe in balance without the god/goddesses?

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 08:30 PM

How the *beep* can you be Dianic and not worship/honor any gods? (gods, not being specifically male or female)

Well for the pourpose of this exercise I'm just going to lump you in with the Magickans.

I think I stated somewhere along the line that balance doesn't nessisarily mean even numbers, and I also mentioned that we put the gods into their human forms, so I don't see how you think you would be unbalanced. I'm sure there is things in Dianic teachings that make up for the absence of a male god.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 08:33 PM

Why can't you believe in balance without the god/goddesses?

You can, I assume. But where does that balance come from? What keeps the balance? Is there a higher power in control of these things or are we the ones that tip the scales? If nature is what keeps the balance then that is still a personification, is it not? :)

VelvetBlade

November 30th, 2005, 08:41 PM

And this is my opinion on the matter...

Wicca is an Earth-based, nature centered religion drawing on the ideas of pantheism, gnosticism, ceremonial magic, and the remnents of pagan religions.

Although the words "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" are often used interchangeably, they are not the same thing. Wicca is a modern revivial of the old, Pagan religions, using magic, nature and a female Deity along with Her Consort, the Horned Lord, as its central core.

The term Witchcraft literally means the craft of the wise. In its original usage, witchcraft was practiced by those persons, more often than not female, who had knowledge of herbal lore, the law, psychology and physiology.

It is important to note that not all Wiccans consider themselves witches, and not all witches are Wiccans. The difference between Witchcraft and Wicca is, for many, a confusing line. The two are best differentiated by the idea of religion vs. practice.

Wicca is a religion which involves communion with the Earth, communion with a God/Goddess (or several of them if you're a polytheist), living in peace with yourself and others, and giving to those that gave to you. Witchcraft, however, is something that some Wiccans practice.

Witchcraft is the art of magic, the art of energy manipulation, the art of altered states of consciousness. A Witch is anyone who practices magic, including Wiccans as well as those of other faiths. This is not a religion in and of itself. Witchcraft may be practiced in many different forms, and admittedly, not all of them are positive. Satanist practices come to mind as an example of negative magic.

A Witch as defined in the Wiccan religion is someone who has studied very hard, committed the Pagan ways to memory, and has given his/her life over to the Goddess for protection and guidance. The term Witch within Wicca is a high title--just because you are Wiccan does not make you a Witch (in the same sense that being a Christian does not make you a priest). Being a Witch also does not make you a Wiccan (anymore than it would make you a Catholic, a Jew, or a Hindu).

Witches and Wiccans are entirely different people, being one does not make you the other. If you look at a Witch as being a Doctor of sorts the analogy becomes easy. Pick ten Doctors from your phone book. If you called and asked - you may find 4 Catholics, 3 Protestants, a Buddhist, a Hindu, and a Wiccan. If there was a listing for Witches in the same book the result would be no different. It IS true that the vast majority of Witches happen to be Wiccan, but you don't have to be one in order to be the other.

Elavon

November 30th, 2005, 08:41 PM

You can, I assume. But where does that balance come from? What keeps the balance? Is there a higher power in control of these things or are we the ones that tip the scales? If nature is what keeps the balance then that is still a personification, is it not? :)

I guess where I have am having difficulty is the god/goddess aspect of things. (I am trying to gather information and find where I may fit-not argue)

Is there a higher power? hmmm, I believe there is something larger than myself but not sure what that might be or where it comes from. What about balance within ourselves? Also, I have never heard the term "atheist witch", would someone explain that further?

Philosophia

November 30th, 2005, 08:45 PM

How the *beep* can you be Dianic and not worship/honor any gods? (gods, not being specifically male or female)

* I never stated I didn't worship any Goddesses. I said "Gods". There is a difference.

Well for the pourpose of this exercise I'm just going to lump you in with the Magickans.

* Don't "lump" with anybody. I am a Dianic witch.

I think I stated somewhere along the line that balance doesn't nessisarily mean even numbers, and I also mentioned that we put the gods into their human forms, so I don't see how you think you would be unbalanced. I'm sure there is things in Dianic teachings that make up for the absence of a male god.

* I believe in masculine/feminine energies, which everybody (including Gods/Goddesses) have. I don't believe in seperating energies and putting them into seperate deities. I don't believe in giving the energies human personifications (which is the same as good/bad, etc.).
I'm also not saying that I'm unbalanced, but by your definition of "witchcraft" I am.

AlleyCat

November 30th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Philosophia

November 30th, 2005, 08:50 PM

As Mouse has stated this is NOT a place for arguements, this is HER path and HER beliefs, the Path forums are not a place to attack others! If you are going to ask stupid questions I suggest you re-read what other people have previously stated as Im pretty sure that Mouse, Raven, Athene and BeigeAllen have covered a fair amount of information.

Excuse me? I'm simply asking questions that have not been asked. I haven't attacked Mouse nor has anybody here so maybe you should just take a deep breath and calm down a bit.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 08:53 PM

VelvetBlade, I'm familiar with your definitions, and that's one of the resons I opened this thread to show a different point of view. I'm not here to argue. :) But there is more to Witchcraft than just magick, and that's what I'm trying to explain

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 08:58 PM

I guess where I have am having difficulty is the god/goddess aspect of things. (I am trying to gather information and find where I may fit-not argue)

Is there a higher power? hmmm, I believe there is something larger than myself but not sure what that might be or where it comes from. What about balance within ourselves? Also, I have never heard the term "atheist witch", would someone explain that further?

You dont have to see the Gods (deity) as being human forms. Let go of those images if it helps you. Focus on the masculine and femine energies and cycles of nature and you can find the god/dess. i'm willing to discuss this with you further if you want to PM me.

To me witchcraft is a religion, and people like "atheist witches" just want to have the fun parts without the work. :) But I have a feeling I'm going to so get flamed for saying that.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 09:02 PM

* I never stated I didn't worship any Goddesses. I said "Gods". There is a difference.

* Don't "lump" with anybody. I am a Dianic witch.

* I believe in masculine/feminine energies, which everybody (including Gods/Goddesses) have. I don't believe in seperating energies and putting them into seperate deities. I don't believe in giving the energies human personifications (which is the same as good/bad, etc.).
I'm also not saying that I'm unbalanced, but by your definition of "witchcraft" I am.

Why are you argueing with me? If you had read my previous posts properly you would see I'm not saying you have to have two deities. If your goddess has both masculine and feminine embodied within her then that is enough. As I stated, balance does not always mean even numbers. Male and masculine are two very different things.

I'm not saying you are unbalanced.

"Gods" generally refers to everyone "upstairs" girls and boys. I'm sorry if this confused you.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 09:05 PM

As Mouse has stated this is NOT a place for arguements, this is HER path and HER beliefs, the Path forums are not a place to attack others! If you are going to ask stupid questions I suggest you re-read what other people have previously stated as Im pretty sure that Mouse, Raven, Athene and BeigeAllen have covered a fair amount of information.

*hugs* Alleycat.

In a way she kinda has a right to yell at me.. not here of course, but she does. Although these are my beliefs I am basically saying other people are wrong, not in a bad way, but wrong none the less. I'm doing more than stating my beliefs in a way, but I wasn't issueing a chalange either. I'm sure you follow my drift. :)

AlleyCat

November 30th, 2005, 09:07 PM

Funny that you think my post was aimed at you, and how does "Don't "lump" me with anyone!" and such comments NOT arguementative? Maybe you need to look at the way you are writing then because that's what it certainly looks you're doing

BeigeAllen

November 30th, 2005, 09:37 PM

Please read Raven Grimassi's reply at the start of this thread. :)

Wow, you couldn't just type, compared to 2500 yers its still pretty modern. Thanks for the suggestion that I go back and reread the posts. For someone that started the thread by stating that they didn't want to argue, you sure have done a lot of it.

Your views work for you. Not all of us share them:fprtyman3

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 09:47 PM

Wow, you couldn't just type, compared to 2500 yers its still pretty modern. Thanks for the suggestion that I go back and reread the posts. For someone that started the thread by stating that they didn't want to argue, you sure have done a lot of it.

Your views work for you. Not all of us share them:fprtyman3

Ok, maybe I had a lazy moment. :lol:

I'm still maintaining I don't want to argue, but I'm not gonna sit by and agree with people when they say I'm wrong either. I'm not angry though, there is no fight comming from my side.

I know the majority of people here do not share my views, but being part of the majority doesn't make a person right either, nor does it make them wrong.

But this is a path, and i'm not the only one on it, and I not only have the right to share that path, but people also have the right to learn about it if they wish.

Philosophia

November 30th, 2005, 10:28 PM

Why are you argueing with me?

* First, I'm not argueing with you. I'm simply discussing it. You stated in your first post that its about "God and Goddess". I simply stated I disagreed. Oh, and btw, I have read your previous posts on this.

Funny that you think my post was aimed at you, and how does "Don't "lump" me with anyone!" and such comments NOT arguementative? Maybe you need to look at the way you are writing then because that's what it certainly looks you're doing

* Maybe you should read my posts without being quick to judge? My comments are a reflection of how Mouse is writing to me. She stated "Well for the pourpose of this exercise I'm just going to lump you in with the Magickans." Thats why I typed "Don't lump me with anybody". Oh, and there was no exclamation mark at the end it either.
So, no, I don't believe I was being arguementative. Merely engaging in a simple discussion.

Mouse

November 30th, 2005, 10:35 PM

* First, I'm not argueing with you. I'm simply discussing it. You stated in your first post that its about "God and Goddess". I simply stated I disagreed. Oh, and btw, I have read your previous posts on this.

Granted, I should have narrowed it down more than that, you are right. Thankyou.
I thought: "A personification of balance, is the God and Goddess, or Lady and Lord. The Gods (and I'm refering to every god or goddess ever worshiped) are energies. It is us humans that give them physical discriptions. We put them into shapes that we can understand and relate to. Balance doesn't nessesarily mean two, nor does it always imply even numbers. One god/dess with several aspects can be just as balanced as a whole pantheon of gods" was pretty darn clear, but obviously it isn't and I apreciate you pointing that out.

I'll post somthing more specific on this when my mind is clearer. (I'm angry over something else right now, so my focus wont be up to scratch.)

Mithrea

December 1st, 2005, 12:25 PM

If anyone disagrees about a topic in Paths, the thing to do is to go to T&P and discuss it. We don't debate here and debates always start with "I disagree."

David19

December 1st, 2005, 03:01 PM

Mouse

December 2nd, 2005, 10:34 PM

Because I wasn't clear enough about this before, I'm going to try to give a better description of withcraft as a religion in relation to how witchces view Deity.
This post will follow on from a specific paragraph in the first post.

A personification of balance, is the God and Goddess, or Lady and Lord. The Gods (and I'm refering to every god or goddess ever worshiped) are energies. It is us humans that give them physical discriptions. We put them into shapes that we can understand and relate to. Balance doesn't nessesarily mean two, nor does it always imply even numbers. One god/dess with several aspects can be just as balanced as a whole pantheon of gods, just as on a scale one tonne of feathers weighs the same as a one tonne lump of rock. Witchcraft teaches that we do not choose our patron or matron god or goddess, If a particular god or goddess wishes for us to serve them they will come forth and tell us so.

A lot of people see balance as even numbers, just as they see each god/dess as a seperate "person" most of the time in human form. To understand what i'm about to expalain, and the Witches teachings about the Gods, You must let go of these preconceptions.

Godde is the spirit behind everything and can easily be seen as one deity, be that deity seen to be male or female, IF that deity displays both masculine and feminine characteristics. Balance does not always mean two, a single being can be perfectly balanced. Most Witches start off worshiping the masculine and feminine principles as two seperate beings, usually called the Lady and Lord or God and Goddess, because our minds naturally see balance between seperate beings rather than inside one. Neither of these ways can be considered the "wrong" way. Most witches who do approach Godde as "the Lady and Lord" will affirm that they are two parts of the same 'force', and that they balance between them is not a balance of opposites.

For example they don't say that one of the pair is evil and the other good. They are part of each other, and are neither good nor evil. Many people will argue "how can they not be completely good when Godde is perfect/ion?" But it is our human minds that assume that perfect = good, when clearly, it does not. Look at nature. When we are alone in nature it can feel like perfection, peace and completion, but looking closer at nature shows us that while nature's balance is a taste of perfection, that balance is created by things that we would consider "bad" interacting with things that we consider "good".

All other Gods can be seen as coming from the one Divine Spirit or the two (God and Goddess) who are the embodyment of the masculine and feminine. Some witches are beconed to work with full pantheons (sp), these can be seen as many faces of one crystal. But even if these Gods are seen as completely seperate entilties, they are all inter-related in some way, all part of the extended family of Gods, and thus can be aproached as one Deity if that Witch desires of if s/he is working with other witches who work with different Gods.

Blessings,
~Miriam

Mouse

December 2nd, 2005, 10:39 PM

I think this thread is interesting and it's cool seeing other people's beliefs but, for me personally, i don't think witchcraft is a religion since i think it's more a craft of magic and other mystical things since a witch can be anyone - wiccan, christian, satanist, aethist (although i'm not sure what aethist witches do or what they believe), Jewish, muslim, etc. I know people say it's always had a religious context but that doesn't mean others can't be witches even if they don't have a religion or if their religion is different.

Although i've heard that some satanist witches feel they have more of a right to the word than wiccan ones, although i don't believe that since it's just a word.

When witchraft is seen as a religion, it is seen as more than just the practice of magick. The words Magick and Witchraft have become interchangeable, even though they are not. So, when seen from a Witch's point of view everyone can practice magick in some form, but useing magick is not enough by itself to bestow the title of "witch", because witchraft is more than just magick.
I hope this makes more scence for you. :)

ewok

December 3rd, 2005, 12:56 AM

The words Magick and Witchraft have become interchangeable, even though they are not.
:)

makes perfect sense to me..and it only took 5 pages of discussion to get to this point?.. :smoke:

BlackMagicalCat

December 3rd, 2005, 01:06 AM

Mouse

December 3rd, 2005, 01:57 AM

VelvetBlade

December 3rd, 2005, 07:38 AM

I hear what you are saying, but you don't seem to hear me.
When I say "witches" I am refering to the religious practitioners of the relgion Witchcraft. For the pourpose of this thread all other 'Witches' (except wiccans,) are being called Magickans. They parctice magick, not witchcraft.

As I said elsewhere, power/magick can be broken down into three types of power, which can be used together or seperatly.

I am a witch, not a magickan (is that a real word??), I practice witchcraft, not magick (hate that word) and my witchcraft is not a religion. The power comes from within.
Interesting discussion though...

~VB

Crystal Raven

December 3rd, 2005, 07:50 AM

I have always thought of Witchcraft (capitalized) as a seperate religion, perhaps because I have an interest in it. Though as a Hedge Witch I do practice/use/incorporate witchcraft (not capitalized) into my doings. I think part of the problem in this discussion is the english language, and Mouse was trying to help the situation by using a different word for Witch (Magickans) to help clarify her position.
Be kind of like trying to describe two different breeds of cats, if you use the term "cat" for both it becomes confusing, whereas if you use cat for one and Persian for another the distinctions are easier to read through and perhaps understand, but they are both still cats.

Just my 2 cents

Mouse

December 3rd, 2005, 08:48 AM

I am a witch, not a magickan (is that a real word??), I practice witchcraft, not magick (hate that word) and my witchcraft is not a religion. The power comes from within.
Interesting discussion though...

~VB

Another word for the witchcraft that you practice is Magic(k). As much as you dislike that word, that is all it is. A practice. The witchraft I am talking about here is not a practice, it is not JUST magick, It's a part of who you are, it's a way of life, a religion.

Define your witchcraft for me. Tell me what makes it more than magick? What makes it different to magick?

*laughs* No, Magickan is not a real word, or at least not as far as I'm aware, but it serves it's pourpose for this discussion.

Yes that power does come from within. This is "personal power" and is entirly yours to do with as you see fit.

Please understand I'm not trying to be offenceive here, I just find the politer I am the more people miss the point. I'm not speaking in anger, and i hope you are not either.

Mouse

December 3rd, 2005, 08:51 AM

VelvetBlade

December 3rd, 2005, 09:08 AM

Another word for the witchcraft that you practice is Magic(k). As much as you dislike that word, that is all it is. A practice. The witchraft I am talking about here is not a practice, it is not JUST magick, It's a part of who you are, it's a way of life, a religion.

Define your witchcraft for me. Tell me what makes it more than magick? What makes it different to magick?

*laughs* No, Magickan is not a real word, or at least not as far as I'm aware, but it serves it's pourpose for this discussion.

Yes that power does come from within. This is "personal power" and is entirly yours to do with as you see fit.

Please understand I'm not trying to be offenceive here, I just find the politer I am the more people miss the point. I'm not speaking in anger, and i hope you are not either.

Oh no..no anger at all. I love that it's okay to have differing opinions. What a boring world it would be if we all agreed, right?
As for my witchcraft, it IS magic (hate the whole "k" thing too...lol). It is also my way of life and a part of who I am. But it certainly isn't something I'd classify as religion. There is no diety involvement, no "worship" so to speak. So my craft does not fit into the definition of religion..

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

UNLESS (isn't there ALWAYS an "unless" - ha!!) you follow THIS definition of religion...

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

My concern, I guess, is the confusion of witchcraft and Witchcraft.

~VB

ewok

December 3rd, 2005, 09:15 AM

VelvetBlade

December 3rd, 2005, 09:19 AM

i stand corrected.. 6 pages and counting.. i thought it was obvious about the point lil mouse was making..

oh well.. perhaps if it was writtin in point form perhaps it would make more sense to those who are having trouble grasping at what this thread is all about..:alol: :fpoke:

I don't think it's that the point isn't obvious,or that it's not able to be grasped.. it's that it's a DISCUSSION. Pretty great, huh??

~VB

Crystal Raven

December 3rd, 2005, 09:32 AM

My concern, I guess, is the confusion of witchcraft and Witchcraft.
then perhaps an easier distiction is needed like a symbol...

witchcraft or Witchcraft© (alt+ 0169)

or

witchcraft or Witchcraft™ (alt + 0153)

or my personal fav

witchcraft or Witchcraft¤ (alt + 0164)

:lol:

ewok

December 3rd, 2005, 09:40 AM

if its a discussion then how come everyone is bytching about the same thing?.. and .. lets not leave this lil snippet in the dark.. why is everyone asking the same question based on their definition of terminology?..wait a minnit.. wasnt it stated earlier in this thread that for the sake of this "discussion" particular terms were going to be used to avoid confusion..

mouse was trying to make a point.. and yet that point she was TRYING to make has been miscontrued to be something else in favor of aguing over basic terminology.. upto and including people (no names no courtmartial) using direct quotes from dictonaries..

if the terminology used offends delicate sensabilities or causes endless suffering and anguish then perhaps if someone could come up with an alternate word to use instead of that the dreaded "m" with a "k" word then i am sure she would have used it..

correct me if i am wrong.. but.. to me if you use MAGIC then you are a MAGICIAN.. simple.. if you arnt a MAGICIAN then what IS the correct terminology to describe a person who uses MAGIC in a NON-RELIGIOUS setting?_inabox_

ewok

December 3rd, 2005, 09:43 AM

then perhaps an easier distiction is needed like a symbol...

witchcraft or Witchcraft© (alt+ 0169)

or

witchcraft or Witchcraft™ (alt + 0153)

or my personal fav

witchcraft or Witchcraft¤ (alt + 0164)

:lol:

you deserve lots of karma for this..:floating: .. hmm..what about the old classic which craft do you follow?

VelvetBlade

December 3rd, 2005, 10:05 AM

correct me if i am wrong.. but.. to me if you use MAGIC then you are a MAGICIAN.. simple.. if you arnt a MAGICIAN then what IS the correct terminology to describe a person who uses MAGIC in a NON-RELIGIOUS setting?_inabox_

Oh that's easy.....a WITCH.:floating:

Darakash

December 3rd, 2005, 02:38 PM

This thread has been very interesting...I have been reading along, but with the exception of a couple questions I asked Mouse (which you answered very clearly by the way, thanks), I haven't responded. Mostly this is because, I find myself nodding my head in agreement with both "sides" of the discussion on various points. It is kinda hard to join a discussion or debate when you just plain don't know what to say!

But today as I was reading the most recent I just decided to put my two cents in. It seems to me that this really is all a matter of terminology. I liked the Capitalization post by the way....I think that really did help clarify the whole craft of magic versus religion of Witchcraft type issue. At the same time though, an earlier post which asserted that perhaps "Witchcraft" as the name of the religion is erroneous and that it might be more accurate to say that being a Witch is one's religion...hmm...

In my experience and from my point of view, I believe and practice much the same way as you do mouse, but I have never called myself a Witch, nor do I consider my religion to be Witchcraft or Witchery. I am a Neo-Pagan Ecclectic who practices Magic. (Add a k if it makes you happy, I don't have a preference about that). Magic IS part of my religion, my practice of it comes from my personal/human power, Divine power, and Natural power (of Crystals, Stones, etc)....

For me personally, I cannot find a separation in my religious/spiritual path and beliefs and magic. For me, the very nature of Neo-Paganism and the Deities whom I honor are integral and interconnected to/with Magic.

I too believe that there is ONE divine source and that individual deities are aspects of that ONE; However, I believe that those aspects are fully realized "personalities" for lack of a better word, and that we as humans will often find we relate more effectively with some of those individuals than others and that if we have Patrons with whom we work, whom we honor, etc, these Patrons are REAL and INDIVIDUAL and not just human-created for the purposes of making us feel more comfortable...I don't know if that made sense, I hope so!

One thing I thought of as I was writing this, is if you look through my post at all the instances of the word "Magic" it could easily be replaced with the word "witchcraft." I think, I still believe that this is an aspect OF my faith/religion/path, but not the title of it....make sense?

Mouse

December 4th, 2005, 01:14 AM

Oh no..no anger at all. I love that it's okay to have differing opinions. What a boring world it would be if we all agreed, right?
As for my witchcraft, it IS magic (hate the whole "k" thing too...lol). It is also my way of life and a part of who I am. But it certainly isn't something I'd classify as religion. There is no diety involvement, no "worship" so to speak. So my craft does not fit into the definition of religion..

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

UNLESS (isn't there ALWAYS an "unless" - ha!!) you follow THIS definition of religion...

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

My concern, I guess, is the confusion of witchcraft and Witchcraft.

~VB

You didn't answer my question. I wanted to know HOW your witchcraft differs from magic.

I know what the definition of religion is, hence one of ther reasons I maintain that witchcraft is a religion.

What confusion between witchcraft and Witchcraft?? It's the same freaking word! :lol:

Mouse

December 4th, 2005, 01:30 AM

Darakash, you make perfect sence. :)
The only difference is I'm not an "eclectic" anything. I follow a very clearly defined path, without borrowing from any other religion or traditon. And while I'm here I keep hearing "But that's not a real religion" so I decided to try and explain a different point of view to people.

I'm understand what you said about deities, and in my clumbsy way that's basically what I was saying. I don't mean they are created by us , only that it deepens a persons understanding if they can let go of the "physical" confines of divine energy and experience it as one, as even the individual gods are conected to each other.. I know I'm not explaining this very well, but I hope you understand.

I know everyone is getting caught up on the terminoloy here, and it is frusterating to me because people are missing the point I'm trying to make, and I can see it frusterated Ewok too. *sighs*

Darakash

December 4th, 2005, 01:40 AM

I don't mean they are created by us , only that it deepens a persons understanding if they can let go of the "physical" confines of divine energy and experience it as one, as even the individual gods are conected to each other.. I know I'm not explaining this very well, but I hope you understand.

*

Oh, hey just so you know...that part of my post was not directed toward you at all...it was just a flow of thought. It was/is quite apparent to me that you were not suggesting that the gods are created by us. I think you have done an excellent job describing your beliefs.

In terms of the language/semantics thing...yep, it really is kind of coming down to that...but nevertheless, this is still a very interesting thread and conversation.

silentillusions

December 4th, 2005, 03:43 AM

I am a "hereditary witch" as well, however I do not agree with what you say, Athene. In fact, I agree with what Mouse says. Witchcraft is my way of life and that is just what I chose to believe. Please do not lump all "hereditary witches" into one category when you say that we disagree. It is not appreciated when you feel it necessary to speak for all "hereditary witches" without knowing what everyone thinks.
Blessed be,
Cryssi

VelvetBlade

December 4th, 2005, 07:51 AM

You didn't answer my question. I wanted to know HOW your witchcraft differs from magic.

I did answer your question.....

As for my witchcraft, it IS magic (hate the whole "k" thing too...lol). It is also my way of life and a part of who I am. But it certainly isn't something I'd classify as religion. There is no diety involvement, no "worship" so to speak. So my craft does not fit into the definition of religion..

I know what the definition of religion is, hence one of ther reasons I maintain that witchcraft is a religion.

And hence the reasons I feel it's not, unless you're utilizing the last definition that I listed, then I could agree. Though that's not the commonly used definition. Geesh, did that make sense? lol

What confusion between witchcraft and Witchcraft?? It's the same freaking word! :lol:

It is the same word, but the whole capitalization things is the difference. I guess it's like God and god, or or capitalizing She/He when referring to diety. It makes folks relate it to religion because of the capitalization.

Mithrea

December 4th, 2005, 07:55 AM

Religion does not have to have a deity.

VelvetBlade

December 4th, 2005, 08:08 AM

Religion does not have to have a deity.

Now see, that's where I've always been "led astray" I guess..lol. To me, religion is about the belief in a higher power that is either the creator of all or the overseer of all. Maybe it doesn't have a specific diety, but the essence is there. That's always been my take on it, at any rate.

~VB

ewok

December 4th, 2005, 08:33 AM

Religion does not have to have a deity.

now that is an interesting remark..how do you explain that line?.. religion is worshipping a diety..a higher being if you want to call it that.. or in more general terms something/someone/or a collective..

as far as my research has shown all religion has that basic tenement as its starting point..

VelvetBlade

December 4th, 2005, 08:36 AM

now that is an interesting remark..how do you explain that line?.. religion is worshipping a diety..a higher being if you want to call it that.. or in more general terms something/someone/or a collective..

as far as my research has shown all religion has that basic tenement as its starting point..

Hey...that's what I said.....*wink*

~VB

Mouse

December 4th, 2005, 08:38 AM

I did answer your question.....

As for my witchcraft, it IS magic (hate the whole "k" thing too...lol). It is also my way of life and a part of who I am. But it certainly isn't something I'd classify as religion. There is no diety involvement, no "worship" so to speak. So my craft does not fit into the definition of religion..

And hence the reasons I feel it's not, unless you're utilizing the last definition that I listed, then I could agree. Though that's not the commonly used definition. Geesh, did that make sense? lol

It is the same word, but the whole capitalization things is the difference. I guess it's like God and god, or or capitalizing She/He when referring to diety. It makes folks relate it to religion because of the capitalization.

All you have said is it is magic.. you have not said how witchraft is different to magic.. and if it is not different then that would make you a magican.. which is still beside the point to this whole damn thread!

I'm not utilizing the last deffinition!

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

All of these are true for witchcraft.

And somehow I doubt useing capitalisation in this way is at all correct grammer, however, I could be wrong.

Can we please get back to the original topic people? Let's get over the terminoloy for one second.. ok?

ewok

December 4th, 2005, 08:40 AM

I did answer your question.....

It is the same word, but the whole capitalization things is the difference. I guess it's like God and god, or or capitalizing She/He when referring to diety. It makes folks relate it to religion because of the capitalization.

right.. same word.. same spelling..and capitalisation dont mean a thing unless you write in uppercase all the time..

"witchcraft - Witchcraft" means two seperate entirely different words that have absolutley nothing in common with each other.. except that they both contain the same letters in exactly the same sequence and mean exactly the same thing..

sheesh..

Mouse

December 4th, 2005, 11:37 PM

right.. same word.. same spelling..and capitalisation dont mean a thing unless you write in uppercase all the time..

Ah, but even if you write in uppercase all the time what do you do if you are having a spoken converstion?? :whatgives :whatmewor

ewok

December 4th, 2005, 11:55 PM

Ah, but even if you write in uppercase all the time what do you do if you are having a spoken converstion?? :whatgives :whatmewor

simple.. you hyphernate each word by intonation.. :megaphone _happydanc

Nemesis Descending

December 5th, 2005, 12:21 PM

Well, no witch is ever going to divulge such a thing nor make it clear. I have no interest in promoting myself so widely, or indulging in some sort of ego trip about where my taining has come from

Hmmm...so you're saying that no witch will admit to the origin of his or her background training!? That's a pretty bold statement. I wasn't aware that you're the spokesperson for all witches.

And where is the ego in simply stating where your training comes from?

So believe what ever you choose.

Thanks, I think I'll take you up on your offer.

Mouse

December 7th, 2005, 05:11 AM

simple.. you hyphernate each word by intonation.. :megaphone _happydanc

I think i still want to know, when useing the uppercase aproach, what do you do if you are having a spoken converstion? This really baffels me.. How do you pronounce "Witchcraft" different to "witchcraft"?

Darakash

December 7th, 2005, 11:55 AM

Can we please get back to the original topic people? Let's get over the terminoloy for one second.. ok?

So you know what now has me curious....you consider Witchcraft itself to be your religion. You have clearly stated why you consider this to be the case. My question now becomes, what name would YOU prefer those who practice what they consider to be withchraft as part of their religion, but not AS their religion...I am not talking here about people who ONLY do magics that have no religious connection, I mean people who incorporate their deities and such in their magical works? Are these just magic practicioners and NOT witches?

Edited to add: Of course, I am only looking for YOUR opinion, I know you do not consider yourself to be the end all authority on what people should be calling themselves! LOL

ewok

December 7th, 2005, 06:50 PM

I think i still want to know, when useing the uppercase aproach, what do you do if you are having a spoken converstion? This really baffels me.. How do you pronounce "Witchcraft" different to "witchcraft"?

i am not going to answer that is i think its bluddy stupid..perhaps an expert can differentiate between the two words..as i sure as goddess dont...:chatty:

Mouse

December 7th, 2005, 07:07 PM

So you know what now has me curious....you consider Witchcraft itself to be your religion. You have clearly stated why you consider this to be the case. My question now becomes, what name would YOU prefer those who practice what they consider to be withchraft as part of their religion, but not AS their religion...I am not talking here about people who ONLY do magics that have no religious connection, I mean people who incorporate their deities and such in their magical works? Are these just magic practicioners and NOT witches?

Edited to add: Of course, I am only looking for YOUR opinion, I know you do not consider yourself to be the end all authority on what people should be calling themselves! LOL

:lol: No worries..

Thinking about it, I've never actually had a conversation about this in RL. All the witches I have ever worked with have practiced witchcraft as a religion, or I'm training them. Well, sept Ewok of course, but he isn't a Witch and doesn't claim to be.

I call Wiccans, Wiccans. If that Wiccan is a Christian Wiccan, I call them that, If they are Dianic, I'll call them a Dianic Wiccan. Most Wiccans I have spoken to have not even noticed I never call them a Witch. "Satanist witches" I would call Satanists. "Athiest witches" I call magic practitioners, or magicains. I'm still having trouble with "Christian Witchcraft" and I'm sure you can see why looking at it from my point of view, lol. If their magic looked like it was a combination of the two religions then I would not hesitate for a second to call them Christian Witches but I find that they are just useing witchcraft to mean magick.. I'd have to wait until I have actually discussed this with a "Christian Witch" to give a decent answer.

If it's part of their religion then I'd say it is magick, not witchcraft. Or if we were talking about a specific element/type of magick I'd call it by what it is.. for example, spellcraft, high magick, ritual, rites of passage..

I spose, yes, I would say they are magick practitioners, not witches. But then, looking at it from another angle, I too am a magick practitioner, but instead of being Wiccan or Christian, I'm a witch. Does that make more sence?

Take cares,
~Miriam

AlleyCat

December 8th, 2005, 02:08 AM

I think you lost em there Mouse lol

Mouse

December 8th, 2005, 02:54 AM

Why does one say that? :lol: Did I not make sence?

ewok

December 8th, 2005, 02:59 AM

Why does one say that? :lol: Did I not make sence?

perhaps using syllables of one or less would help clarify the last post you made.. :seehearsp

AlleyCat

December 8th, 2005, 03:40 AM

yes I think one syllable words are required for those well, hmm, can't think of a nice way to say "slower" peoples, so yeah, dumb it down and spell it out in tiny words for people, use lots of pretty pictures, and people may get the points you are making LOL remember we is well versed in Mouse speak

Darakash

December 8th, 2005, 10:03 AM

Nope, I understood...just not been on line since you posted mouse....and hey alley cat I hope that "dumbing it down" comment wasn't about me! LOL

Anyanka

December 17th, 2005, 11:41 AM

Well i'll be the first to admit i'm slow...yes I am, but I do find it rude to say things such as "dumb it down and spell it out in tiny words for people, use lots of pretty pictures" etc. To the person that said that, you have to understand that the majority of people may not understand, or simply don't agree with the concept that Witchcraft is a religion, but I see and accept that it is for you.

Personally, I do not see how Witchcraft/witchcraft (gosh i'm confused) is a religion as it's been stated many times before, is the worship of Deities, Gods, etc...but it has opened up my mind to at least ponder the possibility of witchcraft as a religion. I don't believe in that, but I don't dispute that - if it is what you believe, who am I to say otherwise? There's also the aspect of integrating Christianity and Witchcraft, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Basically, my point is (yes I have one lol), I accept that this is what you believe and this is what's right for you, but I still am not clear on what you believe. I have read all 5 pages of this thread and 2 hours later (I have no life), I still don't see how witchcraft can be considered a religion. As someone pointed out, if you want to draw pretty pictures and dumb it down for me, feel free to.

Crystal Raven

December 17th, 2005, 02:32 PM

*comes to the rescue again* _vb_ (j/k)

I can easily get what Mouse is saying, cause I think for the most part my path is very similar.

Try this on for size:

I am not a "Wiccan" because...
I have not been initiated
I do not follow the Three Fold Law nor The Rede
my Sabbats do NOT celebrate the Goddess/God son/lover mythology
I don't believe in the Maiden, Mother, Crone thing
I do not call upon nor worship any God or Goddess, regardless of their pantheon
I do not call upon, nor demand service from Watch Towers
I don't do skyclad
I dont follow a specific, set ways of doing ritual, usually copied from anothers BOS
When their "magic" is practiced it is much more formal and usually involves "petitions" to and/or the worship of the God(s) &/or Goddess(es)

I am a Witch and consider Witchcraft as my religion because...
I have dedicated myself to following the Old Ways and worship one or more male or female Gods &/or Goddesses
I believe in the laws of intent, responsibility and honour and as a "Celtic Flavoured" (not butterscotch) Witch I also follow the old ethics of the Celts...
my sabbats celebrate the Seasonal Changes as well as the emotional states that accompany them, as they happen around me.
I do believe that most Gods & Goddesses have different aspects.
I do call upon and worship Gods and Goddesses from my own culture, or my ancestors' culture
I do call upon and request assistance from Guardians, Elementals, Faeries or Ancient Ones
I do have special clothes or robes specificly for ritual use
I do do somewhat formal rituals, that do have a purpose, but they are usually "made up" or spontanious or something I have written and done before
When I practice "magic" it is far more focused on the practical and is more seen as "working with" spirits, elementals, fairies, God(s) or Goddess(es)

I could go on, but these, I think, are the main points/differences.

As for being a "Pagan"...
by the dictionary def. #1

One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
Pagan/Paganism has, in todays modern society, been turned into an umbrella term to cover almost all religions that are not Christian, Judeo or Muslim.
I myself would also not include Buddism, Toasim and a few others.

As for how one would differentiate Witchcraft from witchcraft in a verbal conversation...
one could use the "quote" symbols like Dr. Evil does :lol:
or perhaps refer to themselves as an Old Religion Witch or use the term Witchycraft :lol:

Mouse

December 18th, 2005, 05:47 AM

shamengoddess, *laughs* thanks. For the most part you covered what I mean, 'sept generally I like the whole wheel of the year myth and the Sabbats to me are a time for me to worship/honnor the God and Goddess. I do do skyclad, but that's due to the fact I rarely actually wear clothes (for serious! AlleyCat can tell you. :) She always phones before visiting, lol) unless I'm cold. But the points you put up are basic, in the way that we'd have to talk them out fully to see where we both stand, so to speak.

Heritage/lineage plays a very big part in Witchcraft as a religion, which is why there are differences that can be argued even between two witches. Something that works really well for a witch of my blood might not work so well for a witch in shamengoddess's family, for example I have a very strong affinity for copper and so adding it to my spells can give them a boost, but this extra component might spoil the whole effect of another witch's spell because they don't have that affinity. Make scence?

Anyanka, Don't worry too much about what AlleyCat and Ewok say. They both know me very well and can joke with me "Dumb it down" happens to be a very common saying in my home. They are also pointing to the fact that I'm repeating the same things over and over because people are asking the same questions and missing the point entirely. Don't worry if it's not an easy concept for you to grasp, I am more than happy to explain what I mean to people who are honestly wanting to understand rather than argue.

Ok, it's much easier for me to explain if you ask specific questions, because it is such a big topic, but I'll do my best to outline, in point form, how witchcraft is be a religion.

Witchcraft as a religion:

Includes the worship of Deity (one or many). The Witchcraft I practice has two, Masculine and Feminine.
Has set principles.
Intergrates into every phase of life. It's not just something you believe or do at a sabbat, it's part of who you are.
Has teachings that are considered "secret" to be learned by more advanced members/practitioners, like most other religions.
Has a specific identifiable way that rituals are set out. For example if you go into a church you can tell by their rituals what form of christianity is being practiced, same goes for witchcraft. If you walk into my circle you can (if you know what you are looking for) tell clearly that I'm not Wiccan, because Witchcraft has different rituals.

I know i'm not explaining this well right now, which could have a lot to do with the fact I've been packing all day and am exhausted. I'll be offline for a little while, but as soon as I'm back, I'll answer any questions you might have.

Just ignor the whole Witchcraft/witchcraft thing. What is happening here is people are getting their knickers in a knot because of the words used.
~Sleepy Miri

Anyanka

December 18th, 2005, 06:31 PM

First off, thanks shamengoddess and Mouse for clearing up a few things, yes I did admit to reading all 5 pages of this thread, yet I still couldn't grasp the concept of how Witchcraft can be considered a religion. I read your explinations over and over and it does actually make sense (see...I am that slow).

Secondly, my question was a rather broad one, mainly because I didn't really know how to be specific in approaching this subject...it's all too mish-mashed too me and I did need a "dumbed down" explination, honestly!

Thirdly, I do understand it, I just couldn't grasp that concept, and the fact that I have always, and still do believe Witchcraft is referred, broadly, to the practice of magic, and not referred to as an actual religion, may have made me sound ignorant.

Basically, I do accept what you believe, I did from the beginning, I just didn't see it, and possibly, disagreed with it. To be honest, there are still some things I don't agree with, but I don't see any point in arguing it, it wont serve any purpose. I just wanted to understand where you were coming from, and how you could justify the meaning, and you have, so thanks for taking the time out to answer!

Crystal Raven

December 18th, 2005, 06:48 PM

thanks for taking the time out to answer!

yvw!! :hugz:

Darkwater Stone

December 20th, 2005, 03:20 PM

*comes to the rescue again* _vb_ (j/k)

I can easily get what Mouse is saying, cause I think for the most part my path is very similar.

Try this on for size:

I am not a "Wiccan" because...
I have not been initiated
I do not follow the Three Fold Law nor The Rede
my Sabbats do NOT celebrate the Goddess/God son/lover mythology
I don't believe in the Maiden, Mother, Crone thing
I do not call upon nor worship any God or Goddess, regardless of their pantheon
I do not call upon, nor demand service from Watch Towers
I don't do skyclad
I dont follow a specific, set ways of doing ritual, usually copied from anothers BOS
When their "magic" is practiced it is much more formal and usually involves "petitions" to and/or the worship of the God(s) &/or Goddess(es)

I am a Witch and consider Witchcraft as my religion because...
I have dedicated myself to following the Old Ways and worship one or more male or female Gods &/or Goddesses
I believe in the laws of intent, responsibility and honour and as a "Celtic Flavoured" (not butterscotch) Witch I also follow the old ethics of the Celts...
my sabbats celebrate the Seasonal Changes as well as the emotional states that accompany them, as they happen around me.
I do believe that most Gods & Goddesses have different aspects.
I do call upon and worship Gods and Goddesses from my own culture, or my ancestors' culture
I do call upon and request assistance from Guardians, Elementals, Faeries or Ancient Ones
I do have special clothes or robes specificly for ritual use
I do do somewhat formal rituals, that do have a purpose, but they are usually "made up" or spontanious or something I have written and done before
When I practice "magic" it is far more focused on the practical and is more seen as "working with" spirits, elementals, fairies, God(s) or Goddess(es)

I could go on, but these, I think, are the main points/differences.

As for being a "Pagan"...
by the dictionary def. #1

Pagan/Paganism has, in todays modern society, been turned into an umbrella term to cover almost all religions that are not Christian, Judeo or Muslim.
I myself would also not include Buddism, Toasim and a few others.

As for how one would differentiate Witchcraft from witchcraft in a verbal conversation...
one could use the "quote" symbols like Dr. Evil does :lol:
or perhaps refer to themselves as an Old Religion Witch or use the term Witchycraft :lol:

You read my mind word for word!!!! I ALLREADY DO THE DR.EVIL QUOTE SYMBOLS!
(our beliefs are practically identical!!)
Right on.....Somebody send this gal some karma!!
I differ in one aspect, I do practice Witchcraft. Instead of worshipping gods/goddess, I worship the elements.
But other than that, Shamengoddess and Mouse, I'm on the same page as yall!

Crimson Mage

December 20th, 2005, 10:14 PM

It's all in the semantics here folks......

In the end it really boils down to this -- is a "tradition" necessarily a "religion"?
Whether or not you answer yes or no to that basic question will lead you to the answer to this one.
Those who practice a form of witchcraft (note the lower case w here) that has been passed down thru time, whether its by family or some other way, will tell you in no uncertain terms that what they do is their religion. Over time, many ritualistic things have been added, and things are tinkered with, and one forms his/her own sense of religion within the practice of witchcraft.
It evolves from just working with herbs, energies, and a multitude of other things into a more spiritual form of witchcraft than a Wiccan for example would ever practice. This evolved "product" would be what is referred to as "Witchcraft" (the upper case W).

This will seem weird to say, but its actually true: Wiccans practice witchcraft, and Catholics practice witchcraft, and and Druids practice it, and Witchcrafters - those who follow the Witchcraft FAITH for the sake of this discussion- also practice witchcraft (the practice). The problem most folks have with seperating the two is mostly due to the nomenclature as well as not grasping the idea of the Witchcraft faith due to its uniqueness from person to person within the faith itself. It has to be considered the most PERSONAL of all faiths because of the varied individual ways that each person is drawn to it.

Arion

December 22nd, 2005, 06:27 PM

Mouse

December 27th, 2005, 03:21 AM

Iwitchcraft is essentially a religious movement. If you want to practice magic and not worship the gods, call yourself a magician, that's my opinion.

Well part of this thread is stateing that Wicca is different to Witchcraft, that they are not interchangeable, but I'm on the same page as you with this bit ^ but people seem to think of "magican" as an insult or something._inabox_

Mouse

December 27th, 2005, 03:28 AM

Arion

December 28th, 2005, 04:57 PM

Well part of this thread is stateing that Wicca is different to Witchcraft, that they are not interchangeable, but I'm on the same page as you with this bit ^ but people seem to think of "magican" as an insult or something._inabox_

Oh yes, I agree with the not interchangeable point, I was just saying that Wicca is what started the religious movement of all types of witchcraft in our time.

Wicca is Witchcraft but Witchcraft isn't necessarily Wicca, correct?

As for magician title, I think people just like calling thmselves witches, it carries a lot more mystique than "magician" which usually gives the image of those wacky guys at kids parties who pull rabbits out of their top hats. The definition of Witch, however is usually reserved for a certain type of religious practitioner, and people who don't realize this probably watch too much Charmed :p

Philosophia

December 28th, 2005, 05:32 PM

The definition of Witch, however is usually reserved for a certain type of religious practitioner, and people who don't realize this probably watch too much Charmed

* I was going to keep out (I've always believed in the adege to each their own) but just because somebody doesn't believe that witchcraft is a religion doesn't mean they watch too much "Charmed". It just means they have a different opinion to what they believe witchcraft is.
I call myself a "witch", not because there is more "mystique" to the word but because its what I am. I am not a magician because my path isn't soley based on "magic" but, imo, it still ain't a religion.

Arion

December 28th, 2005, 08:20 PM

oops, maybe that was a stupid thing to say:bigredblu

Just curious, what is it that you think makes you a witch if you disagree with the traditional meaning of the word?

Philosophia

December 28th, 2005, 09:09 PM

Just curious, what is it that you think makes you a witch if you disagree with the traditional meaning of the word?

What's the "traditional" meaning of the word "witch"?
To me, being a witch means connecting with the energy that surrounds us and nature. It means having a deep reverance with nature and everything that encompasses that meaning, knowing the cycles of earth, moon, and the seasons. It means going beyond this world and seeing into the next.
IMO, it doesn't mean connecting with a diety, however you can do this.
Witchcraft, to me, is a practice and a path. It can be combined with other religions, i.e. Wicca, Christianity, etc. but it is still a practice. This is, of course, my opinion.

Aidron

December 28th, 2005, 09:22 PM

Oh yes, I agree with the not interchangeable point, I was just saying that Wicca is what started the religious movement of all types of witchcraft in our time.

Started? No. Prominent? Quite so.

Wicca is Witchcraft but Witchcraft isn't necessarily Wicca, correct?

You are partially correct. Witchcraft is not necessarily Wicca, for one is a practice and the other is a religion. There are no inherent morals within Witchcraft, it is simply a magical practice that tends to focus more on thaumaturgical magic. Wicca is not Witchcraft, however. Witchcraft can be incorporated into Wicca and accepted with great ease, but Wicca is much more than simply the practice of Witchcraft. It has a dogma, like all religions, fundamentals which must be adhered to if you wish to refer to your faith as Wicca with any credibility. I will make a pre-emptive strike, however, in stating that I no desire to define the fundamentals of Wicca. It is no my religion and even those who follow it seem to be unable to agree upon it. My mind is made up on the fundamentals, but since it is not a religion I adhere to, it's of little concern.

As for magician title, I think people just like calling thmselves witches, it carries a lot more mystique than "magician" which usually gives the image of those wacky guys at kids parties who pull rabbits out of their top hats. The definition of Witch, however is usually reserved for a certain type of religious practitioner, and people who don't realize this probably watch too much Charmed :p

I find this paragraph to be unenlightened. Magicians will often focus more on theurgical magic, which can be referred to as high or ceremonial magic. Witches on the other hand, focus more on low and folk magic (thaumaturgical, as stated above). I will say that most probably select the title out of ignorance and a fondness of the title, not necessarily because they have given a great deal of thought to their magical practice. Some have, like myself, and thus the title of Witch is more appropriate.

Aidron

December 28th, 2005, 09:29 PM

I haven't read the enitre thread yet, but i think its safe to say that Witchcraft is indeed a religion. Gardnerian authors like the Farrars, Doreen Valiente and Gerald Gardner use Wicca and witchcraft interchangably. I highly doubt anyone woul dhave called themself a witch before Wicca was founded, so Wicca was the original witchcraft in our modern society, and we can't really say for sure what witchcraft was in the past. I'm aware that other forms of Witchcraft have popped up for those who don't relate to Wicca, but witchcraft is essentially a religious movement. If you want to practice magic and not worship the gods, call yourself a magician, that's my opinion.

Gardner was... ignorant in many respects and lacked the desire to truly put forth a great deal of work in my mind, unlike Doreen who clearly showed an interest in the work it required to be what she was; and as she defined it, a Witch.

Wicca is not the original Witchcraft in our modern society, as my other post stated. It is merely a religion which is accepting of Witchcraft and that you can blend seemlessly the practice with the faith.

Witchcraft is not a religious movement, however. Wicca is, for it is only under the guise of Wicca that Witchcraft truly even became brought back into the public eye, which can be to a degree the problem in this confusion, because it is actually Wicca, not Witchcraft, that was brought into public view. Witchcraft just happened to come along with it because of the way Wicca as a religion is.

"The gods"? A curious phrase. Regardless, you can exhaust yourself until you die and people will refer to themselves as they wish, whether with good reason or not. Still, magicians have throughout history been quite faithful, particularly in ancient Greece where mages and the like were very much a controversial subject (some respected them, others thought them to be blasphemous charlatans). Witches too can be seen throughout history as being religious, much like Medea or Circe, however, what each Magician and each Witch has in common is a practice of magic, while their faith and religious affinities very much differ depending upon the culture in which they existed or were professed to have exist. There are even other tales in which both Magicians and Witches had little to nothing to do with any form of divinity or a connectedness with the world around them; they simply practiced magic.

Crystal Raven

December 29th, 2005, 09:56 AM

Witchcraft is not a religious movement

perhaps I am reading your post incorrectly, however, I sincerely disagree with this statement!!!

it also contradicts this statement you made:

Wicca is not the original Witchcraft in our modern society
which seems to state that Witchcraft did in fact exist before Wicca, which I do happen to agree with, though way back then they were called Healer, Cunning Men, Wise Women etc...

Aidron

December 29th, 2005, 10:11 AM

perhaps I am reading your post incorrectly, however, I sincerely disagree with this statement!!!

Disagree as much as you wish then. Witchcraft is not a religion, therefore it cannot be a religious movement. What it can be is a key factor of inclusion amongst religions on the rise, such as Wicca. It is, however, the individual religions which create the religious movement, not the magical practice(s) they support and incorporate.

it also contradicts this statement you made:

which seems to state that Witchcraft did in fact exist before Wicca, which I do happen to agree with, though way back then they were called Healer, Cunning Men, Wise Women etc...

How is it contradictory? Witchcraft existed before Wicca and it did find its way into America and modern times in many ways. Wicca just happened to be a stronger religious supporter of Witchcraft than any other at the time, but that doesn't make Wicca modern Witchcraft, it makes Wicca exactly what it is, a modern religion.

And as for what Witches were called way back when, no. For starters, we are not reclaiming any title, Witches as far as history can tell us were always thought of as malicious and malevolent practitioners. We are simply claiming the title. Witches centuries ago were called Witches and it likely wasn't anything anyone wanted to be referred to. Furthermore, not all Witches are wise, nor are all Witches healers. To be a Witch is to bend reality and energy to your will. Witches are shapers of energy and magic, nothing more. This does not mean that Witches cannot be healers or wise, but simply that it is not a necessary component to adorn the title. If anything, I've met more Witches who intentionally and unintentionally do harm to themselves and those around them and who are about as wise as exposed brick.

Arion

December 29th, 2005, 05:47 PM

What's the "traditional" meaning of the word "witch"?
To me, being a witch means connecting with the energy that surrounds us and nature. It means having a deep reverance with nature and everything that encompasses that meaning, knowing the cycles of earth, moon, and the seasons. It means going beyond this world and seeing into the next.
IMO, it doesn't mean connecting with a diety, however you can do this.
Witchcraft, to me, is a practice and a path. It can be combined with other religions, i.e. Wicca, Christianity, etc. but it is still a practice. This is, of course, my opinion.

Well said. I agree with you, in general. Some people who call themselves witches don't necessarily have reverence for nature though, so defining what is a witch is still pretty difficult. I was thinking that since Wicca is the most "prominent" form of Witchcraft, it defines what witches are on the whole, and that is ignorant on my part.

I find this paragraph to be unenlightened. Magicians will often focus more on theurgical magic, which can be referred to as high or ceremonial magic. Witches on the other hand, focus more on low and folk magic (thaumaturgical, as stated above). I will say that most probably select the title out of ignorance and a fondness of the title, not necessarily because they have given a great deal of thought to their magical practice. Some have, like myself, and thus the title of Witch is more appropriate.

Enlightenment is an illusion in self-important people. What I said was a dumb thing to say, and probably offensive to some, but I tend to post without thinking sometimes. I'm a bitch, I admit it. :p

Gardner was... ignorant in many respects and lacked the desire to truly put forth a great deal of work in my mind, unlike Doreen who clearly showed an interest in the work it required to be what she was; and as she defined it, a Witch.

Doreen was indeed a fantastic lady.

I'm still very confused. I thought especially here in a Pagan community people would agree that "witch" is a religious term. I strongly think there needs to be more discipline in the Pagan community on the whole, so that these labels and practices can be clearly defined and people aren't prancing around calling themselves goodness-knows-what without reason.

Philosophia

December 29th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Crystal Raven

December 29th, 2005, 11:31 PM

sorry Mouse, I give...apparently now Witchcraft is not a religion, so who knows what my religion actually is, cause it sure ain't Wicca.
What I do know is that I am just not up for an argument. _inabox_

Arion

December 30th, 2005, 04:04 PM

*hugs shamengoddess* Don't worry, Witchcraft is a religion, but i think the point others are trying to make is that religious Witchcraft isn't the only type of witchcraft out there.

Vincent Verthaine

December 30th, 2005, 08:07 PM

I'm still very confused. I thought especially here in a Pagan community people would agree that "witch" is a religious term. I strongly think there needs to be more discipline in the Pagan community on the whole, so that these labels and practices can be clearly defined and people aren't prancing around calling themselves goodness-knows-what without reason.

Says who?
We are all individuals here,and not some cult bending to the will of a charismatic high priest.
If there is to be "more discipline" in the "pagan comminity" who's gonna enforce it?
By who's standards are we to follow.
And what happens to those pagans that don't fit the "status quo?
The Path of Eris strictly forbids us discordians from engaging in mindless conformity.

Defining practices and paths are solely the responsibility of the practicioner.
The "pagan community" has no right to define anyones path for them.
The "pagan community"has no right to define what gods to believe,what terms we use,and and how we live our lives in general.
We discordians pride ourselves on having no leaders telling us what to do,and we plan to keep it that way.

If you believe that witchcraft is a religion,well, by golly,it is .
For you it is, though.

If you believe that witchcraft isn't a religion,well,by Eris,it isn't.
For you it isn't, though.

And if someone is "prancing around calling themselves goodness-knows-what without reason",so freaking what. That's their right.
If they make a fool of themselves,I personally have no problem with it.
This should be an open forum,not a highschool clique that only allows the "cool" pagans to join.

Arion

December 31st, 2005, 01:36 AM

Eep, that's not what i meant. Of course people shouldn't be enforcing paths on others. I think there should be more discipline in defining the LABELS people have, not their actual paths. To each their own in that regard. But for example, I could call myself a Hindu because I like the idea of being a Hindu, yet have nothing in common with the established beliefs and practices of Hinduism (no matter how diverse they are), so would calling myself a Hindu really make me one just because "to me it does"? I would think that would offend some people, understandably.

CzechWoods

January 8th, 2006, 01:29 AM

mouse, i may or may not agree with everything you said.

but i appreciate the work you have put in here, you have set out an example, and this is most respectable

it is so very easy to say how one disagrees with this detail or the other, people, but i beieve that fairness would ask, that all of you, who are fast with disagreement define THEIR VERY PATH in the same detailed, exact manner as mouse did, and after they have done so successfully (and obviously perfectly) to com back and start debates (if it is allowed in this thread by the admins)

mouse, once again. a wonderful thread, and excellent posts.

:yourock: for that

Ben Gruagach

January 8th, 2006, 01:43 PM

Part of the ongoing problem is that some people try to claim a generic title to refer to something that is actually quite specific. In this case, it's people who are calling their particular religion which incorporates witchcraft by the name Witchcraft.

As other have pointed out already (and believe me, this topic has been discussed at great length for decades now with very little "final outcome") the words witch and witchcraft refer to lots of very different people and groups and practices. Sure, some of them are overtly religious but not all are yet they are all witches.

It makes more sense to me for people who desire a specific name for their religious beliefs to invent a new term for their religion rather than try to attempt to co-opt a generic term which already has a long history of use as a generic term. By all means use the generic term as part of your new religion's name -- just be sure to add extra bits to the new label to make it truly unique.

Calling a specific religion Witchcraft is like some specific group starting up and then deciding to call themselves Christianity (with all those other Christian groups considered to be "not real" of course.) It just doesn't go over too well and really isn't helping anyone.

raven grimassi

January 8th, 2006, 06:44 PM

It makes more sense to me for people who desire a specific name for their religious beliefs to invent a new term for their religion rather than try to attempt to co-opt a generic term which already has a long history of use as a generic term. By all means use the generic term as part of your new religion's name -- just be sure to add extra bits to the new label to make it truly unique.

Calling a specific religion Witchcraft is like some specific group starting up and then deciding to call themselves Christianity (with all those other Christian groups considered to be "not real" of course.) It just doesn't go over too well and really isn't helping anyone.

Ironically this is exactly what happened with Wicca (from my perspective as one who first encountered "Wicca" in the summer of 1969). Back then the terms Wicca and Witchcraft were interchangeable, they meant the same thing. Then, in the early 1980s, groups formed who decided to call themselves Wiccan and they redesigned Wicca to suit their individual needs and beliefs. These groups and individuals grew into a majority and thus established Wicca as it is popularly depicted today. Those of us who practiced the former Wicca are now told that we were and are incorrect. And you are right, Ben, it does not go over too well. ;)

Witches as far as history can tell us were always thought of as malicious and malevolent practitioners. We are simply claiming the title. Witches centuries ago were called Witches and it likely wasn't anything anyone wanted to be referred to.

The fact that Witches have always historically been portrayed as evil is like the fact that racial minorities have always been portrayed in negative ways, and it does not indicate the reality regarding the true character of such people. Instead such views reflect fear and ignorance.

We know from the studies of social anthropology that the Witch figure was used to explain the ills of society, crop failures, diseased herds, and so forth. The Witch was intentionally viewed as evil for specific purposes. It was political not factual. For example, Witches were believed to kill babies and children for use in the brews, and yet in the towns where Witches are tried there are no corresponding reports of missing or dead children.

While it is true that the majority of people accused of Witchcraft were not Witches by any definition, it is also true that some of the accused openly admitted to being Witches. In the 17th century trial transcripts of Laura Malipero we find that she freely admitted to practicing Witchcraft. It is interesting to note that she had been tried and convicted of Witchcraft three times over a period of years, and witnesses stated that she was the most famous Witch in the area. Italy was less harsh in its treatment of Witches, and punishment rather than death was usually administered.

Ben Gruagach

January 8th, 2006, 09:24 PM

I'm glad that there are people like Raven who can speak from firsthand experience and clarify some of the history of the modern Pagan community. It always amazes me how quickly people forget how things can change. There is a tendency to assume that the opinions that are common today have always been the way things were, and will always be the way things will be. Even ten years ago these opinions might have been in the minority or might not have existed at all. In ten years from now who knows what people will be saying?

Personally I do think there is a difference though in the example of the term Wicca and its evolution. When it was first introduced by Gardner (however fleeting his reference to it) and then was picked up and popularized by some of his followers, it was an archaic term that was not part of modern English. Taking an old word that has not been used for generations and then repurposing it is a lot easier to do than taking a word that is still commonly used, like the terms "witch" and "witchcraft", and then repurposing them into something different than the generic and common usage.

Raven's point is right though that making a clear distinction between Wicca and witch is a relatively new thing. When Wicca was first introduced by Gardner's followers it was used as a synonym for witch rather than to try and differentiate their system from other forms of witchcraft. I think that the witch-wars though had a large part in forcing the term Wicca to mean a specific type of witchcraft. When people make a fuss that such-and-such isn't real Wicca (but could still be considered witchcraft) it's not surprising that Wicca would get identified as a specific system or subset of the more generic witchcraft.

It's also very true that witches were not universally considered to be evil. It's certainly a common perception but it's not the only one thoughout history.

One final observation I'd make is that I'm rather reluctant to accept confessions made in court regarding whether a person is a witch or not to be valid. People under duress (physically tortured or not) will often admit to the most amazing things. I am much more convinced though by examples of people who present themselves openly to the community as witches outside of the court setting. For example, a person who makes their living selling charms, potions, cures, etc. and who openly calls themselves a witch is a witch as far as I'm concerned. But even then they could just be trying to cash in on what they think is easy money without any real belief or skill in magickal arts.

raven grimassi

January 9th, 2006, 02:04 AM

I'm glad that there are people like Raven who can speak from firsthand experience and clarify some of the history of the modern Pagan community. It always amazes me how quickly people forget how things can change. There is a tendency to assume that the opinions that are common today have always been the way things were, and will always be the way things will be. Even ten years ago these opinions might have been in the minority or might not have existed at all. In ten years from now who knows what people will be saying?

You are making me feel old, Ben. ;) But yes, I was there in the late 60s, and saw the Witch Wars of the 70s and 80s as well. The Craft is significantly different now in the public arena, and bears little resemblance to what I was taught many years ago. I think we have gained and lost much along the way.

Personally I do think there is a difference though in the example of the term Wicca and its evolution. When it was first introduced by Gardner (however fleeting his reference to it) and then was picked up and popularized by some of his followers, it was an archaic term that was not part of modern English. Taking an old word that has not been used for generations and then repurposing it is a lot easier to do than taking a word that is still commonly used, like the terms "witch" and "witchcraft", and then repurposing them into something different than the generic and common usage.

Perhaps we looked at things in a much simpler way in my era. In the dictionary the word wicca was the root word for Witch, and so we felt on solid ground. Many of us used the word Wiccan instead of Witch simply because telling someone you were Wiccan gave you time to explain. Telling someone you were a Witch barely gave you time to get out of town.

I think in the old days that most of us were Witches of the heart and not so much Witches of the head. We didn't intellectualize the Craft we just enjoyed it on moonlit nights. The Witch wars changed that, and I think took away much of the innocence of those days.

In the 1980s when things began to become significantly altered in the Craft, many of us abandoned the Wicca title and embraced the word Witch in order to avoid being identified with the new offshoots. Little did we know at the time that the offshoots would soon grow so large as to overshadow and displace us.

One final observation I'd make is that I'm rather reluctant to accept confessions made in court regarding whether a person is a witch or not to be valid. People under duress (physically tortured or not) will often admit to the most amazing things. I am much more convinced though by examples of people who present themselves openly to the community as witches outside of the court setting. For example, a person who makes their living selling charms, potions, cures, etc. and who openly calls themselves a witch is a witch as far as I'm concerned.

That is one of the reasons why I look to the Italian records, as many recorded confessions are made to priests by local members of the parish (I think Ginzburg goes into some of this). These were passed on to higher church officials, and then sometimes to secular authority. In Italy the Church was more interested in repentance than in punishment, and so we have a fair amount of information not extracted through fear of torture, death or imprisonment. I also believe that this situation allowed for the survival of Witchcraft in Italy.

Crystal Raven

January 9th, 2006, 10:37 AM

Temptation

January 9th, 2006, 11:55 AM

So then, what should we (those in this thread that say that Witchcraft is their religion) call it???

Maybe you could call it Religious Witchcraft?

I don't know, to me witchcraft was never a religion. The one who taught me her brand of witchcraft, my grandmother, had her own religion. She was a Catholic, she believed in God, the Holy Ghost, the Virgin Mary and all the Saints you can think of. She never saw witchcraft as her religion. Witchcraft is just something she was naturally gifted at. She said it was a gift from God.Something she couldn't ignore if she tried because it was so much a part of who she was.

To some degree, it's the same for me. It's in my blood, although I'm not nearly as gifted as she was. She was the most amazing healer and spell caster I've ever known. I, unfortunately, do not have her healing gift. My specialty lies elsewhere, with divination. My spell casting skills are getting better every year, but I can't heal people the way she could.
I don't practice any religion. Witchcraft is not my religion. I do have my own personal spirituality, but it has very little in common with what I define as religion.

In my mind, we're both witches. But it has nothing to do with religion.

Ben Gruagach

January 9th, 2006, 12:18 PM

So then, what should we (those in this thread that say that Witchcraft is their religion) call it??? This is one of the reason I use the term Hedge Witch, it is what I am by all popular definitions, but a Hedge Witch whos' religion is in fact Witchcraft.

*edited to add*
and then there is the problem of validity, many people, even on this board, would question ones validity if they have a "made up" term or tradition that has not previously been established...how does one then answer for themselves?

If you are practicing as part of a group then the group needs to make up a distinctive name if they feel that having a label is necessary. If you're practicing as a solitary and aren't associated with a particular group who says you have to have a name for your particular spiritual path?

If you really feel you need a label for your spiritual path then make up a unique one.

It doesn't make any sense to me to choose a generic label for one's specific spiritual path and then get all worked up when others dare to use that generic label to mean other things. Who owns the generic term? Who has the authority to tell everyone else they are using the generic term wrong?

Do Roman Catholics have the right to tell all other Christians that they can't call themselves Christian? (I don't think they do.) But Roman Catholic authorities most certainly have the right to declare who is allowed to call themselves a Roman Catholic.

It's the same with witchcraft, Wicca, and the different denominations, sects, or traditions. (Personally I don't like it when we use the word "tradition" as a synonym for sect or denomination as it's another generic term which is being co-opted to mean something very specific, often in a very less-than-straightforward way.) We don't have a central authority in our community that can dictate to all witches, nor do we have a central authority to dictate to all Wiccans. But Gardnerian Wiccans do have their own authority structure and can dictate to Gardnerian Wiccans. Alexandrian Wiccans have their authority structure. Other groups have their own hierarchies set up to determine membership, practice, and even thealogy/theology. But those groups don't have the authority to dictate to those who are outside their group.

Temptation illustrated the issue really well with her own personal example. Her example is hardly an exception either -- I think if we look through historical examples we'll find that witches come in all sorts of varieties with all sorts of religious contexts -- Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, agnostic, and even atheist. Not all Pagans are witches, and all witches are not neccesarily Pagans.

When we use generic terms we need to be realistic in accepting that the broader meanings are there too.

Crystal Raven

January 9th, 2006, 12:37 PM

It doesn't make any sense to me to choose a generic label for one's specific spiritual path and then get all worked up when others dare to use that generic label to mean other things.

I haven't gotten worked up at all, just looking for suggestions. As for me "choosing" a generic term for a religion, I wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last...

http://www.thecrookedheath.com/
and they seem to very much disagree with some of the opinions on here (as there are always differences with humans)...here's their opinion...

http://www.thecrookedheath.com/witchnf.htm

Ben Gruagach

January 9th, 2006, 01:14 PM

I haven't gotten worked up at all, just looking for suggestions. As for me "choosing" a generic term for a religion, I wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last...

Glad to hear you're keeping yourself grounded and realistic. There are, unfortunately, lots of people who are more than eager to claim themselves the final authorities on who is and isn't a "real Witch" or a "real Wiccan" or a "real Pagan." It's stuff like that which fuels witch-wars.

http://www.thecrookedheath.com/
and they seem to very much disagree with some of the opinions on here (as there are always differences with humans)...here's their opinion...

http://www.thecrookedheath.com/witchnf.htm

We've had some discussion of that particular website a little bit here at MysticWicks. One thread you might want to check out is this one (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=87869).

Robin Artisson and his friends are certainly free to have their own opinions on things. They're fighting an uphill battle (and one which I would question is worth fighting) in trying to deny everyone else the right to use generic terms like "witch" and "witchcraft."

Crystal Raven

January 9th, 2006, 07:14 PM

Ben Gruagach

January 9th, 2006, 07:39 PM

They're fighting an uphill battle (and one which I would question is worth fighting) in trying to deny everyone else the right to use generic terms like "witch" and "witchcraft.I'll agree with you on this point...
however; with this staement of yours...

It makes more sense to me for people who desire a specific name for their religious beliefs to invent a new term for their religion rather than try to attempt to co-opt a generic term which already has a long history of use as a generic term.

aren't you doing the same thing?

I haven't said that anyone out there is not a "real Witch", a "real Pagan," or a "real Wiccan" even. And I leave it up to people who do belong to specific denominations (like Gardnerian Wiccans, Alexandrian Wiccans, etc.) to use their own authority structures to determine who is a "real" member of their particular denominations.

I'm not sure how what I've said is contradictory. Could you explain it as I'm missing the confusion...

The crookedheath people though do seem to be pretty open in claiming that their way is the One True and Only Witchcraft, and all the rest who use the word witchcraft are mere pretenders or are fake somehow. That's witchwar nonsense.

Crystal Raven

January 9th, 2006, 07:45 PM

Ben Gruagach

January 9th, 2006, 10:12 PM

yes yes I agree on the Crooked Heath bit...but aren't you doing the same... denying the right to use a generic term like Witchcraft to denote ones religion, even by just suggesting that one come up with a different term?

No, I don't think I'm doing the same.

What the crookedheath people are doing is the same as Roman Catholics telling all Christians that they don't have the right to call themselves Christians.

From my point of view, the crookedheath people are witches, but I'm also a witch, and so are the Gardnerians, and Alexandrians, and solitaries, and non-English based magickal practitioners that identify themselves with that word. No one subgroup has exclusive ownership, nor do they have the authority to tell the rest of us that we can't use the larger generic terms of witch or witchcraft.

Crystal Raven

January 10th, 2006, 10:02 AM

So then if I state, Witchcraft is my religion, why suggest a making up a different term?

Ben Gruagach

January 10th, 2006, 10:25 AM

So then if I state, Witchcraft is my religion, why suggest a making up a different term?

Because it's like saying Cooking is my religion.

Sure, I could decide to make cooking a central part of my spiritual path... but is it really fair to all the other chefs out there for me to start banging the drum that Cooking is a religion?

Witchcraft is most definitely central to the spiritual paths of many people (including me) but our spiritual paths are our spiritual paths -- regardless what names we give them. And while witchcraft might be a huge part of that spiritual path witchcraft itself is not the religion. We only confuse things by mistaking one of the practices (however central) for the religion itself.

Does that make sense?

raven grimassi

January 11th, 2006, 02:50 PM

Because it's like saying Cooking is my religion.

Sure, I could decide to make cooking a central part of my spiritual path... but is it really fair to all the other chefs out there for me to start banging the drum that Cooking is a religion?

Well, I think there would be a case for it if cooking, like references to Witchcraft, had long and consistently been featured with religious themes, goddesses and supernatural beings. For example, if cooks were associated with a goddess figure, and in cook trials a goddess figure kept popping up (who cooks called upon), and cookery was once called an illicit religion by the ancients, then yes, I think you could bang a drum.

:jamsessio

Ben Gruagach

January 11th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Well, I think there would be a case for it if cooking, like references to Witchcraft, had long and consistently been featured with religious themes, goddesses and supernatural beings. For example, if cooks were associated with a goddess figure, and in cook trials a goddess figure kept popping up (who cooks called upon), and cookery was once called an illicit religion by the ancients, then yes, I think you could bang a drum.

:jamsessio

Let's go with a similar example then: medicine. Or how about prayer. Those are two things which have very long and very clear histories of being closely intertwined with religious themes and contexts, yet I don't think anyone would seriously say that either of them is an actual religion.

Prayer for instance is pretty much always (or 99.999% of the time anyways) part of a religious context. However, because it exists in multiple religious contexts and itself does not have all the requirements of a religion (i.e. its own clear set of beliefs, its own teachings about the Divine, its own universal hierarchy of followers, etc.) it is not in itself a religion.

dragoncrone

January 11th, 2006, 04:07 PM

Prayer for instance is pretty much always (or 99.999% of the time anyways) part of a religious context. However, because it exists in multiple religious contexts and itself does not have all the requirements of a religion (i.e. its own clear set of beliefs, its own teachings about the Divine, its own universal hierarchy of followers, etc.) it is not in itself a religion.

I'm reminded of at least one Christian order in which monks (or nuns or whatever the participants are called) take their vows, and then stand inside an enclosed space from which they hear peoples' confessions and then pray for them...plus, there are orders of Buddhism in which prayer pretty much constitutes the sum total of the monks' practice.
What about Tibetan Buddhism and those who tend the temples, spinning the Prayer Wheels all day? It seems to me that there are esoteric instances in which prayer is the religion.

dragoncrone

January 11th, 2006, 04:10 PM

For example, if cooks were associated with a goddess figure, and in cook trials a goddess figure kept popping up (who cooks called upon
I think we should have a Kitchen Goddess!! There is already a Chinese Kitchen God. We demand equal time!!!:hahugh:

raven grimassi

January 11th, 2006, 05:03 PM

Let's go with a similar example then: medicine. Or how about prayer. Those are two things which have very long and very clear histories of being closely intertwined with religious themes and contexts, yet I don't think anyone would seriously say that either of them is an actual religion.

I think you have lost me in this analogy, but that is probably my fault as I am "under the weather" as they say, and my head is a bit foggy.

Ben, I am simply giving the other side of the story. Personally, if someone wants to practice Witchcraft as a magical system, well, that is fine with me. I am just trying to point out that it has a longer and earlier history of displaying religious markers than it does only sorcery markers. My only objection is that people seem to ignore or dismiss this fact in favor of regarding it as a magical system first and foremost. This approach seems to me to disregard the literary and historical precedents concerning the religious elements of Witchcraft in the days of old.

Ben Gruagach

January 11th, 2006, 05:38 PM

I respect your input, Raven, although I disagree with the conclusions. You always bring a lot of great material that is definitely worth examining. We need more people like you who are willing to track down the evidence and present it so that others can puzzle over what it might mean.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there have been people who incorporated witchcraft so intimately in their religion that their religion just wouldn't be the same without it. Wicca, to me, just isn't Wicca if it's divorced from witchcraft.

And it really doesn't matter much who did what first either -- whether witchcraft was first used in a religious context or in a non-religious context. The fact is there is evidence for both of these that stretches back hundreds if not thousands of years. Witchcraft as a central part of a religion is not something dreamed up in the past hundred years, but neither is the idea that witchcraft is a practice and something that can be done within any (or no) religious context.

dragoncrone - your example of various religious orders that make prayer their exclusive practice does not really prove that prayer itself is a religion. The religions in those examples are either Christianity or Buddhism, not "Prayer." Prayer is the method there, but the religion is Christianity or Buddhism or whatever.

And I thought we did have some kitchen goddesses! Some people treat Martha Stewart as a kitchen goddess incarnate. Personally, I'd be more inclined to put Julia Child on that pedestal.

Hestia and Hertha are other goddesses of the hearth and home who I would think count as kitchen goddesses too. I'm sure there are others if we researched it some more.

Mmmm... kitchens and food. I might have to go have a snack soon.

raven grimassi

January 11th, 2006, 05:59 PM

Dawa Lhamo

January 12th, 2006, 01:18 AM

Well, I think there would be a case for it if cooking, like references to Witchcraft, had long and consistently been featured with religious themes, goddesses and supernatural beings. For example, if cooks were associated with a goddess figure, and in cook trials a goddess figure kept popping up (who cooks called upon), and cookery was once called an illicit religion by the ancients, then yes, I think you could bang a drum.

:jamsessio Actually, in Hinduism, cooking is intertwined with both medicine and religion. If you read up on Ayurveda and Indian forms of alchemy, cooking can be very much a religious act. The universe is sometimes described as a big masala stew-pot. ^_^ And it is customary to have an altar in the kitchen. Often, newly cooked food is offered to a deity first, who "eat the essence", and then the people partake of it. Such food is called prasad. Anyway, just pointing it out. ^_^

(I took a class called Hindu Medicine and Indian Food, can you tell? ^_^ )

raven grimassi

January 12th, 2006, 11:31 AM

Actually, in Hinduism, cooking is intertwined with both medicine and religion. If you read up on Ayurveda and Indian forms of alchemy, cooking can be very much a religious act.

Yes, food and its preparation is something we do find in many ritual aspects. I am reminded of the cakes & wine in Craft ritual, and there is also the cauldron and its many brews.

Ben Gruagach

January 12th, 2006, 12:25 PM

I think there's a good argument for claiming that cooking is central to the spiritual path of people who identify themselves as either hearth witches or kitchen witches too.

BlackMagicalCat

January 12th, 2006, 12:34 PM

No, I don't think I'm doing the same.

What the crookedheath people are doing is the same as Roman Catholics telling all Christians that they don't have the right to call themselves Christians.

From my point of view, the crookedheath people are witches, but I'm also a witch, and so are the Gardnerians, and Alexandrians, and solitaries, and non-English based magickal practitioners that identify themselves with that word. No one subgroup has exclusive ownership, nor do they have the authority to tell the rest of us that we can't use the larger generic terms of witch or witchcraft.
So true,I have others always trying to tell me what I am or am not.

Christians say at times I cant be saved,because I believe in a Goddess and magic.

Some pagans,(not here,and not many)claim Im a pagan wanna be.

I dont really listen ,because I feel a claim on my life by God,and a Goddess I love.To me,they decide who I am,and what they will do with me,not another.

I serve them,and answer to them.And I love them.I rest in the knowledge that its the Goddess who decides what to do with me and where to lead me.
And I follow her with my heart.

BlackMagicalCat

January 12th, 2006, 01:23 PM

That reminds me of Christians arguing amongst themselves as to who is and isnt really saved.This seems to be human nature,like who is and isnt the real IRA

Or who is or isnt a real muslim.

We all want to put our stamp of aproval on what we think we believe,and who qualifies to carry the title.

Thats how the many denominations of churches came to be.

Its that way in every religion.

The Pictish Druid

January 24th, 2006, 07:02 PM

IMO there are two types of spiritual paths; religion and magick. Religion requires devotion to a god or goddess. Magick on the other hand allows one to become a god or goddess.

The Path of witchcraft is not so much a religous path as a magickal path. Apart from Shamanism many other (considered to be religions) come into the same category. For example I would also include Taoism and perhaps even Buddhism as being magickal paths.

stella01904

January 24th, 2006, 07:52 PM

For example I would also include Taoism and perhaps even Buddhism as being magickal paths.MM ~ Certainly Tibetan Buddhism! :hahugh:
BB, Stella

Meabh23

January 27th, 2006, 05:28 PM

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

It is a religion. People get the two confused ever since Neopagans started using the term Witchcraft for a religion (or set of closely related religions). I tend to agree with Isaac Bonewits' usage when he calls it Neopagan Witchcraft to be specific and to separate it from what many people might think. Within that title (NpW) I feel Wicca falls. And within that title, I fall.

Mouse

February 14th, 2006, 05:04 AM

Ok. It's been a while ay? I'm glad to be back.

Seems no one actually heard me when I said I didn't want to argue, that I wanted to share. I was hopeing maybe we could move past the lables bit by now, because maybe I might have something worth shareing here. *lopsided smile* It's an interesting read though, some really good points have been made here.

Blessings,
Miri.

Ben Gruagach

February 14th, 2006, 07:38 AM

Mouse

February 14th, 2006, 08:00 AM

stella01904

February 14th, 2006, 10:54 AM

... I was under the influence that debateing, however politely, is not to be done in the paths forum.MM ~ Is this true? Xentor?
But besides that what i'm saying is I would have thought that people would have been able to move past the lable by now and see what i'm really writing, you know what I mean?This thread's gone on so long that I had to go back to your first post to see what you were referring to! Yes, I agree with you, Witchcraft is, and has always been, a religion.
BB, Stella

Dawa Lhamo

February 14th, 2006, 01:58 PM

*smiles* Thats not quite what I ment... I was under the influence that debateing, however politely, is not to be done in the paths forum. But besides that what i'm saying is I would have thought that people would have been able to move past the lable by now and see what i'm really writing, you know what I mean?I'm aware that this is the case. Of course, you also posted this (It's like the fourth post in this thread):
I apreciate all feed back, doesnt matter if it is something that re-afirms my beliefs or if it is to challenge my views... It all helps me learn. Emphases are my own. You invited people explicitly to challenge your views. If you did not want people to do that, then I would wonder why you made the invitation?

I was under the impression that the "debate" or presentation of differing viewpoints was only really started because you invited it. Before you posted this invitation, there was no debate at all.

I'm perfectly fine with no debate in Paths. I think it's a good policy. I'm just curious as to the discrepancy between what you wanted from people then and what you want from people now.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

Rasenna

February 14th, 2006, 02:43 PM

Witchcraft--religion or practice? Who cares? It is what it is...
~R

Mouse

February 14th, 2006, 06:58 PM

I'm aware that this is the case. Of course, you also posted this (It's like the fourth post in this thread): Emphases are my own. You invited people explicitly to challenge your views. If you did not want people to do that, then I would wonder why you made the invitation?

I was under the impression that the "debate" or presentation of differing viewpoints was only really started because you invited it. Before you posted this invitation, there was no debate at all.

I'm perfectly fine with no debate in Paths. I think it's a good policy. I'm just curious as to the discrepancy between what you wanted from people then and what you want from people now.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

I but I didn't invite them explicitly to challenge my views. Yes I stand by my statement that both kinds of feedback is good, but it's getting a bit excessive here. Yes there are two sides, one that says witchcraft is a religion, and one that says its a practice, and thats great, but that's not actually challengeing my views any way as the arguments are getting repetitive and it's only challenging the name I give it.

What I'm saying is we have established that some people want me to call it something different and that some people are happy to agree with me, now why can't we move on and see the ideas and information that I am trying to share? no, not what I'm calling it, but what "it" actually consists of.

I put this thread here to share a path, not to debate if witchcraft is a religion or not. I gave a few reasons why I thought it is a religion, to help people understand where I'm comming from and let it go from there. I figured people might be curious enough to ask more about this path, to learn more, but instead everyone is too busy squabiling over termanology.

I hope this makes a bit more scence.

Mouse

February 14th, 2006, 06:59 PM

This thread's gone on so long that I had to go back to your first post to see what you were referring to! Yes, I agree with you, Witchcraft is, and has always been, a religion.
BB, Stella

Yep it is, but that's only half of what I was trying to say. :hahugh:

stella01904

February 14th, 2006, 08:01 PM

stella01904

February 14th, 2006, 08:08 PM

Yep it is, but that's only half of what I was trying to say. :hahugh:
MM ~ Quite a long thread here, trying to sift through your posts...I see some mention of "drawn" (from diety) power as compared with "raised" power - that's always interesting! Working closely with a diety gives you a nice edge, IMHO. ;)
BB, Stella

Philosophia

February 14th, 2006, 08:37 PM

MM ~ I've noticed that any time one refers to one's religion as Witchcraft, the "Huttonites" show up in droves and attempt conversion. :lol:
BB, Stella

Nobody is trying to convert anybody here, and the implication one has is just silly.

Rasenna

February 14th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Stella:
What do you mean "Huttonites?" And what do you mean that they try to convert everybody? This is not a challenge, this is my admitted ignorance.
~R

stella01904

February 14th, 2006, 09:57 PM

Philosophia

February 14th, 2006, 09:59 PM

CzechWoods

February 14th, 2006, 11:39 PM

I but I didn't invite them explicitly to challenge my views. Yes I stand by my statement that both kinds of feedback is good, but it's getting a bit excessive here. Yes there are two sides, one that says witchcraft is a religion, and one that says its a practice, and thats great, but that's not actually challengeing my views any way as the arguments are getting repetitive and it's only challenging the name I give it.

What I'm saying is we have established that some people want me to call it something different and that some people are happy to agree with me, now why can't we move on and see the ideas and information that I am trying to share? no, not what I'm calling it, but what "it" actually consists of.

I put this thread here to share a path, not to debate if witchcraft is a religion or not. I gave a few reasons why I thought it is a religion, to help people understand where I'm comming from and let it go from there. I figured people might be curious enough to ask more about this path, to learn more, but instead everyone is too busy squabiling over termanology.

I hope this makes a bit more scence.

i totally understand your frustrations, mouse.

many people (or some people) have difficulties to see the whole picture, when a detail derrails their view.

some peopl though, are so much thriving to find and debate this very detail, that one comes to the conclusion, they are not even interested in the message.

as the saying goes: sometimes, there is a hair in the soup, sometimes though, people will shake their heades above the plate for so long, until they find a hair

and possible complain about it.

i said it earlier, and i repeat it again.

you have written some excellent posts. it is not whether i agree with it or not, but i wish everyone put the same effort into defining their own paths, before derrailing someone else's made up mind set

Mouse

February 14th, 2006, 11:58 PM

i totally understand your frustrations, mouse.

many people (or some people) have difficulties to see the whole picture, when a detail derrails their view.

some peopl though, are so much thriving to find and debate this very detail, that one comes to the conclusion, they are not even interested in the message.

as the saying goes: sometimes, there is a hair in the soup, sometimes though, people will shake their heades above the plate for so long, until they find a hair

and possible complain about it.

i said it earlier, and i repeat it again.

you have written some excellent posts. it is not whether i agree with it or not, but i wish everyone put the same effort into defining their own paths, before derrailing someone else's made up mind set

Thankyou :cheers: I'm glad someone understands where I'm coming from! (even if you don't agree, it's good to know I'm making scence). I just love the soup analogy! It's very apt.
~mouse

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 10:54 AM

MM ~ Ron Hutton wrote a book basically saying that Witchcraft was invented by Gerald Gardner and there were no Witches before that, etc. etc. etc. Many subscribe to this view, many don't. I don't. Nor do I view Leland, et.al, as "discredited" just because someone wrote that someplace.

A "Huttonite" is the kind of person who, when told of Medea saying "This I do by the Threefold Goddess Hecate", will say "All this proves is magic in conjunction with Goddess worship". :spaceman:
BB, Stella

You have a rather odd understanding of what Hutton says in his books and an even more peculiar understanding of the opinions of those who agree with Hutton.

Hutton never said there were no witches prior to Gardner. He did say that the religion that Gardner presented, Wicca, does not seem to have existed before Gardner came along. He challenged the still-unproven claim that Gardner was merely passing on an intact pre-Christian religion.

Hutton's books are filled with pre-Gardnerian witchcraft lore and history as well as the non-witchcraft sources that Gardner drew from in putting together Wicca. If you or anyone else has evidence that proves Gardner was just passing on an intact pre-Christian religion then there are a lot of people (me included) who would love to hear about it. Without evidence to back it up though a claim is just a claim.

stella01904

February 15th, 2006, 10:57 AM

Yet, there is no proof of anybody stating this so why label people "Huttonites" here?MM ~ No one has specifically brought up Hutton on the thread, but it was begun in the spirit of discussing the religion of Witchcraft:

I'm writing to share my path. My personal beliefs. I don't want to argue...and quickly degenerated into a lot of arguing over the definition of Witchcraft. The "Witchcraft is just magic not a religion" line is commonly used by Huttonites. I can smell 'em a mile off...:lol:
BB, Stella

Elderbush

February 15th, 2006, 11:01 AM

What do you call yourself? Witchite?

Isn't it a little childish to label others without giving yourself one too? Do you smell as well?

Ed. to add: I'm really offended by the suggestion that people who disagree with you smell and need to be called names.

The Pictish Druid

February 15th, 2006, 11:18 AM

stella01904

February 15th, 2006, 11:25 AM

Hutton never said there were no witches prior to Gardner. He did say that the religion that Gardner presented, Wicca, does not seem to have existed before Gardner came along. He challenged the still-unproven claim that Gardner was merely passing on an intact pre-Christian religion.MM ~ Hutton (and the people who push Hutton - no offense intended, I like you, but we do disagree on this point) seems to be saying that Witchcraft was totally extinct at the time Gardner came along. I've brought up Leland, and been told that he's "discredited". (By who? Why? What proof is there? Never seem to get a clear explanation of this.) Bring up the Canon Episcopi and everyone goes "What does that have to do with anything?" (Well, it tells you people were worshipping Diana.) Not everyone killed during the burning times was Christian, else they would have simply confessed to Satan worship, like the torturers wanted, and not belonging to the Society of Diana.

Someone mentioned on another thread that Medea worshipped Hecate and not a God and Goddess and that makes her "not a Witch". No, it makes her "not a Wiccan". BTW, the Greek pantheon has a balance of male and female god forms. Medea just had a special affinity for Hecate. Very special, if you ask me. :cheers:

Anyway, I've noticed on this and probably a half dozen other forums that a capital "W" or referring to Witchcraft as a religion will bring the naysayers out in droves. I am not convinced, and you are not convinced, even a Hereditary Witch with multiple degrees and a lifetime of study like Raven Grimassi has not convinced you, so isn't the sensible thing to agree to disagree?

Hutton's books are filled with pre-Gardnerian witchcraft lore and history as well as the non-witchcraft sources that Gardner drew from in putting together Wicca. If you or anyone else has evidence that proves Gardner was just passing on an intact pre-Christian religion then there are a lot of people (me included) who would love to hear about it. Without evidence to back it up though a claim is just a claim.So there is "pre-Gardnerian 'witchcraft' lore", yet Gardner made everything up? Do you define Witchcraft by the modern trappings of Wicca: the Rede, the Threefold Law (which Doreen Valiente herself said "old Gerald cooked up at a ritual", no one is trying to say that one is ancient), candles, the generic "Lord and Lady"? By this logic, wouldn't Judaism be a modern invention since a lot of people buy matzoh in the store rather than making it? Medea didn't have a cell phone, either, she didn't watch "Medium" on Monday nights, and if she kept dogs they didn't have ID chips implanted in their scruffs, but she was a Witch and we are Witches, and it never completely died out. It's just too good. :tongueout Haven't you seen the moon?

By the way, we've presented the evidence. Many, many times. If you don't want to see it, that's you!

Now, we've argued long enough. There are other threads for that. Let's talk about what Miriam WANTED to talk about. I am declaring a Hutton-free zone. :lol:
BB, Stella

Elderbush

February 15th, 2006, 11:43 AM

Gardner did not make everything up. He borrowed from many places to create a new religion. You seem to be saying that the existance of bits and pieces that have been incorporated into witchcraft today prove that witchcraft was around for thousands of years. This smells to me sort of like illogic.

stella01904

February 15th, 2006, 11:56 AM

You seem to be saying that the existance of bits and pieces that have been incorporated into witchcraft todayMM ~ "Witchcraft"? Or "Wicca"? Please clarify.
prove that witchcraft was around for thousands of years. This smells to me sort of like illogic.Not only the forms in modern Wicca, but the many written references. BB, Stella

stella01904

February 15th, 2006, 12:04 PM

What do you call yourself? Witchite? MM ~ Actually no, I follow a religion, not one guy who happened to write a book.

Isn't it a little childish to label others without giving yourself one too? Do you smell as well?
Ed. to add: I'm really offended by the suggestion that people who disagree with you smell and need to be called names.I wasn't implying body odor, I was speaking metaphorically.
And if you are offended that, on a thread specifically for the discussion of this religion and not a questioning of whether it IS or not, I have pointed out certain behaviors I find asinine, (like rushing in to tell us our religion is not a religion when we try to talk about it) that is your own problem.
BB, Stella

Elderbush

February 15th, 2006, 12:21 PM

Well, then I suggest you say you won't tolerate people who disagree and in addition complain to the moderators next time like a big old grown up (a metaphysical one of course).

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 12:50 PM

I'm just amazed at how Hutton's work is being misrepresented. First the claim that he supposedly said there were no witches before Gardner. Then the claim morphs into witchcraft was extinct by the time Gardner came along and there were no living witches when Gardner appeared on the scene.

BUZZZ! Sorry, no prize for that one either.

Hutton's books give lots of examples of people who called themselves witches who were practicing at the time Gardner came out of the closet, and who were practicing well before Gardner. Sybil Leek's mom and her friends in the "Pentagram Club" are one example that Hutton gives as a confirmed witchcraft group that predates Gardner. Dafo is another person who Hutton discusses as a witch who was practicing prior to Gardner.

The point though is that there is little evidence that Wicca, which is the system Gardner promoted as an intact pre-Christian religion, existed prior to Gardner. The witches who we know practiced before Gardner came along don't seem to have been Wiccans from what we know of what they did and what they practiced.

I'm going to add my voice of disapproval too over this childish name-calling which is clearly intended to be derogatory. Discussing ideas and sharing opinions, and making claims and providing evidence to support or refute it, is something that we can all engage in respectfully. It happens all the time here at MysticWicks so I know it's possible. Let's keep the level of discussion respectful. No one has to change their minds about anything and we can have differences of opinion at the same time in a respectful way.

raven grimassi

February 15th, 2006, 12:52 PM

I've brought up Leland, and been told that he's "discredited". (By who? Why? What proof is there? Never seem to get a clear explanation of this.)

Some people do love to toss around the term "discredited" do they not!? But when it comes to Leland it is a matter of speculation and conjecture. And to a degree the same is true of Gardner.

Here is the way I see it, Witchcraft has evolved through the ages and Wicca is derived from it. The earliest literature on Witchcraft in Western culture contains elements of religion such as prayer, worship, and deity. Even within the Christian era Witchcraft we find the use of such terms as worship (in this case the devil). The view of Witchcraft without religious elements is relatively new. I cannot find a century without religious references to Witchcraft, including our own.

Anyway, I've noticed on this and probably a half dozen other forums that a capital "W" or referring to Witchcraft as a religion will bring the naysayers out in droves.

Do these same people capitalize Christianity? Personally I think Witchcraft deserves the same respect.

I'm just amazed at how Hutton's work is being misrepresented.

I think part of the confusion resides in the fact that Hutton states his book is really about the British Isles: "The subtitle of this book should really be a history of modern pagan witchcraft in South Britian (England, Wales, Cornwall, and Man), with some reference to it in the rest of the British Isles." - Introduction, page vii, Triumph of the Moon

But some people, myself included, feel that he strays beyond this to include European Witchcraft in general.

Discussing ideas and sharing opinions, and making claims and providing evidence to support or refute it, is something that we can all engage in respectfully. It happens all the time here at MysticWicks so I know it's possible. Let's keep the level of discussion respectful. No one has to change their minds about anything and we can have differences of opinion at the same time in a respectful way.

Well said, Ben.

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 12:56 PM

Here is the way I see it, Witchcraft has evolved through the ages and Wicca is derived from it. The earliest literature on Witchcraft in Western culture contains elements of religion such as prayer, worship, and deity. Even within the Christian era Witchcraft we find the use of such terms as worship (in this case the devil). The view of Witchcraft without religious elements is relatively new. I cannot find a century without religious references to Witchcraft, including our own.

There is a difference though in having evidence that religion is mixed with a specific practice, and claiming that the practice is a religion in and of itself. I don't think anyone is doubting that there is evidence that stretches throughout history of witchcraft being practiced in all sorts of religious contexts.

The fact that witchcraft can be practiced within ANY religion, or in no religion, tells me that witchcraft itself is not a religion.

David19

February 15th, 2006, 01:37 PM

I like Hutton's Triumph of the moon (i haven't brought it but i have read some of it in the library) and from what i've seen, he doesn't say there were no witches before Gardner, he just clears up history and tells the truth, he also doesn't attack wicca, he seems to give it more credit by helping people learn the truth, also i believe he speculates there was a witch called Dafo (or something) who initated Gardner, so wicca should be glad to have Hutton writing books.

As for witchcraft as a religion, i don't think it is, the religion is the act of worshipping a god, gods, whatever (although you don't have to have a god e.g. Buddhism), witchcraft is the act of using magic (summoning spirits, spells, potions, whatever) which can be used by anyone regardless of religion (or lack of) even an aethist could practice (although they'd probably have some kind of a belief in mystical forces, maybe).

Anyway that's what i think.

raven grimassi

February 15th, 2006, 01:55 PM

There is a difference though in having evidence that religion is mixed with a specific practice, and claiming that the practice is a religion in and of itself.

I understand and appreciate your point. I am simply pointing to roots, and the roots (if nothing else than literary) do not appear to separate the craft from the religion. Separating them appears to be a modern phenomenon. The book Witchcraft and Religion, by Christina Larner, is an interesting look at Witchcraft as viewed in the Renaissance period: "The study of Witchcraft is both important and difficult. Important because such beliefs lie at the precise intersection of religion, law, economics and family life." - Foreword, page ix

There is also an interesting view of Witchcraft as a religion in the book Oedipus & the Devil: Witchcraft, Sexuality and Religion in early modern Europe, by Lyndal Roper. The author discusses the early view of people who saw the causation of magic to be understood as both social and religious.

The fact that witchcraft can be practiced within ANY religion, or in no religion, tells me that witchcraft itself is not a religion.

I would phrase this differently and say that it means Witchcraft can also have its magical craft separated out and isolated as a practice in and of itself.

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 02:01 PM

I would phrase this differently and say that it means Witchcraft can also have its magical craft separated out and isolated as a practice in and of itself.

For those people who have separated witchcraft from a religious context (and they have existed throughout history too -- it's not just modern practitioners) are they not practicing witchcraft then?

I'm just having a really hard time reconciling the claim that witchcraft is a specific religion with the fact that it's practiced by Christians, and Jews, and Pagans, and atheists too.

raven grimassi

February 15th, 2006, 02:12 PM

For those people who have separated witchcraft from a religious context (and they have existed throughout history too -- it's not just modern practitioners) are they not practicing witchcraft then?

This could be an interesting conversation. Who are you referring to exactly? I mean, where do you specifically find people associated with European Witchcraft in the past where there is no reference to religious elements?

I'm just having a really hard time reconciling the claim that witchcraft is a specific religion with the fact that it's practiced by Christians, and Jews, and Pagans, and atheists too.

I guess because they have separated out the magical craft and discarded the religious elements. To use an Italian example, Stregheria is the religion and stregoneria is the magical practice (but both translate into English as Witchcraft).

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 03:35 PM

This could be an interesting conversation. Who are you referring to exactly? I mean, where do you specifically find people associated with European Witchcraft in the past where there is no reference to religious elements?

I'd refer you to Owen Davies' books, particularly "Cunning-Folk." It seems to me that witchcraft was a practice, a craft, even a business for some people (it was their primary way of making money) and not their religion at all.

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 03:36 PM

I guess because they have separated out the magical craft and discarded the religious elements. To use an Italian example, Stregheria is the religion and stregoneria is the magical practice (but both translate into English as Witchcraft).

Do you consider the stregoneria to not be "real" witches then? (And were there no stregoneria before Gardner's time?)

raven grimassi

February 15th, 2006, 04:28 PM

I'd refer you to Owen Davies' books, particularly "Cunning-Folk." It seems to me that witchcraft was a practice, a craft, even a business for some people (it was their primary way of making money) and not their religion at all.

Are you saying then that the Cunning Folk were Witches? That is certainly not a view held by scholars, but I would be interested to know if it is your view.

Do you consider the stregoneria to not be "real" witches then? (And were there no stregoneria before Gardner's time?)

I consider modern "stregoneria" as a form of sorcery. It was once a part of Witchcraft as Stregheria (a pre-Christian religion) but has since been so watered-down with Christian elements that it is now debatable as to whether it can be called Witchcraft (as something distinct from Christian magic).

It is clear from literary and historical sources that Italian Witches claimed to be worshipping a goddess figure, which was typically Diana. Some examples -

In 1313, Giovanni de Matociis wrote in his Historiae Imperiales that many lay people believed in a nocturnal society headed by a queen they call Diana. A woman tried by the Milanese Inquisition in 1390 claimed to belong to the “Society of Diana,” confessed to worshipping the “Goddess of Night,” and stated that “Diana” bestowed blessings upon her.

In 1457 three women tried in Bressanone confessed that they belonged to the “Society of Diana” (as recorded by Nicholas of Cusa). In 1576, Bartolo Spina wrote in his Quaestrico de Strigibus (listing information gathered from confessions) that “witches” gathered at night to worship “Diana,” and had dealings with night spirits.

In 1749, Girlamo Tartarotti associated the Witch Cult with the ancient cult of Diana, in his book Del Congresso Nottorno Delle Lammie. In his A Study of the Midnight Sabbats of Witches he wrote: “The identity of the Dianic Cult with modern witchcraft is demonstrated and proven.”

However, the Church dismissed such things as deceptions of the devil and spent no time in trying to discover a pre-Christian Witch sect. This is clear when we look at the questions asked of Witches, which have more to do with how many times they had sex with the devil and how large was his phallus. Secular trials also ignored the references to goddess worship, and focused on magical deeds. So there was no sincere investigation of Witchcraft as anything other than what the Church officials and secular authorities had in mind. This is the data that formed the views of modern scholars, which is why they likewise dismiss Witchcraft as a pre-Christian religion.

When we look at the trial data, the accounts of the accused are dismissed when they do not fit with devil worship. So it did not matter what the people who admitted to being Witches (without torture) had to say about their Witchcraft. They were just as dismissed and their religious views equally denied authenticity just as Witches are today who maintain the same religious views. I find that a bit ironic.

Here is something interesting -

Ancient Greeks viewed Witchcraft as an illicit religion (you cannot be valid because you are not sanctioned by the State as an official religion). In the Christian era the view was one of a deceived people (you cannot be worshipping a goddess because she is a form used by the devil to trick you). In the current era it is one of lack of evidence (you cannot be an ancient religion because there is no substantial evidence). I find it fascinating that people have been dismissing as non-existent the same thing for over 2500 years. For something that supposedly never existed, why all the press?

misschief

February 15th, 2006, 04:52 PM

ok. (in reference to original post).. in my opinion, it isn't a religion and not even close to being one.. but hey, it's yours, own it *shrug*. doesn't matter what i, or anyone else think... just what you think.

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Dawa Lhamo

February 15th, 2006, 05:14 PM

British witches after all are purportedly following British gods (although I know they do sometimes follow European ones.) How can it be the same religion when one group is clearly Christian and another is clearly Italian, and another clearly Celtic? That's my confusion. It seems to me that Witchcraft as a single religion makes no sense. Any more than Paganism as a single religion makes sense.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that there were likely Witchcraft religions, which varied region to region. People then might call it Witchcraft without a modifier because they had no reference as to what went on in other regions.

However, it is very unclear to do that in modern times. We don't have the same excuses. I think we're more accurate if we say Italian Witchcraft and British Witchcraft.

Raven, your evidence seems to point to religious Witchcraft (perhaps several Witchcraft religions), but not necessarily a single Witchcraft religion. (It seems to be like saying there are several Pagan religions, but Paganism itself isn't a single religion.)

I dunno, just throwing my thoughts in there.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 05:44 PM

Thanks for that summary, Dawa Lhamo. I agree completely with what you've said.

raven grimassi

February 15th, 2006, 05:58 PM

I am saying that people who called themselves cunning-folk are witches because they did call themselves witches, at least in the British Isles according to the material presented by Owen Davies. Gardner and others who promoted the claim that Wicca was an intact pre-Christian religion would often point to the cunning-folk specifically as the people before them who had preserved the "old religion."

Interesting, as my view has long been that the Cunning Folk were Witches who did, in effect, what American Indian scouts did, work against their own people. I was not aware that other people viewed them as Witches. I have the Davies book, and will take a look.

If witchcraft itself is a religion and not just a practice that can be done within any religious context including atheism, then how can we say that it is the same religion when its done in a Christian, or a Jewish, or even a Pagan context?

We seem to be having some miscommunication, and I am beginning to think that you think I am saying that Witchcraft is ONE religion as opposed to religious in its roots (the latter being my point). I am not saying Witchcraft is universal in its precise structure, as I believe Witchcraft existed and exists in many European cultures with variants within each. In various cultures it has religious elements (for example, Eva Pocs associates Hungarian Witchcraft with a Fate goddess among others). I am only saying that Witchcraft in the past, in various regions of Europe, is associated with deity worship and is also a magical system.

But perhaps I do not understand what you are saying, because I do not understand the problem you refer to in regards to it as a practice among Christians, Jews, etc. People appear to be taking its magical practices and using them in their own system, and so why is that a problem related to its foundational religious nature?

Raven, your evidence seems to point to religious Witchcraft (perhaps several Witchcraft religions), but not necessarily a single Witchcraft religion. (It seems to be like saying there are several Pagan religions, but Paganism itself isn't a single religion.)

No argument here, and I am not sure why anything I said is being translated into Witchcraft as ONE TRUE religion. If someone can point out where I said that, I would like to correct it. All I recall referring to is religious elements in literature and historical records, from which I conclude that Witchcraft was viewed as religion over the passed centuries.

Ben Gruagach

February 15th, 2006, 06:54 PM

A very interesting development, Raven! I've gone over this topic quite a number of times before with you and this is the first time I can remember that you've acknowledged that witchcraft isn't one single specific religion.

I'm not sure that anyone has argued that witchcraft has no religious roots and is completely divorced from religious overtones. What has been under debate has been the claim that keeps coming up over and over again that witchcraft is a single universal religion. This was a large part of Margaret Murray's hypothesis (the universal Great Mother cult known as Witchcraft) and which others have pointed out was brought forward by others in print before Margaret Murray's work on the subject.

It's why people like me tend to chime in when we see people say, "yes, witchcraft is a religion" or say things like "Witchcraft is the Old Religion" rather than saying witchcraft can be a religion or in some circumstances is a religion. It's the difference between being absolute about it and describing it in terms of being a singular religion and making it clear that the witchcraft being discussed is one of a larger set.

Gardner believed Margaret Murray's theories wholeheartedly and presented Wicca as not just a religion based on witchcraft but the religion of Witchcraft (again in terms of it being a singular universal religion.) People who followed naturally repeated the claim until the doubts became open in the modern Pagan community in the 1990s and especially after Hutton's book "Triumph of the Moon" came out in 1999. I remember that there was a bit of an outcry against Hutton's book (similiar to a few of the Hutton-bashing posts we've seen here) but then once people had a chance to read and discuss the book it's amazing how opinions changed. The claims that Witchcraft was a single universal pre-Christian religion of the Great Goddess and her Horned God consort suddenly opened up to become aware of how this belief was perhaps not supported by the evidence of history.

We witches must be careful with our language as words do have power. When we talk about "the god of the Witches" we imply that there is a single unified religion of Witches, and that this religion has a single god. When we say Witchcraft is "the Old Religion" we are being clear in stating that Witchcraft is a single, ancient religion -- even though that might not be what we think we are saying. People can only really figure out what we mean by what we say. We must be clear in what we say. We must accept responsibility for clarifying when our words are not accurate and mislead.

raven grimassi

February 15th, 2006, 08:32 PM

A very interesting development, Raven! I've gone over this topic quite a number of times before with you and this is the first time I can remember that you've acknowledged that witchcraft isn't one single specific religion.

Well, had I known earlier that you took things the way you apparently have, we could have put this to rest long ago. However, I am cautious as to whether we are actually talking about the same thing here. What I mean is that Witchcraft is not like Catholicism, for example, where there is a cohesive structure that unites its churches. I see Witchcraft, in days of old, as a religion with various expressions, and various traditions that share a similar magical craft and a basic theology. There are things held in common, and there are cultural differences. Does that help?

I'm not sure that anyone has argued that witchcraft has no religious roots and is completely divorced from religious overtones. What has been under debate has been the claim that keeps coming up over and over again that witchcraft is a single universal religion. This was a large part of Margaret Murray's hypothesis (the universal Great Mother cult known as Witchcraft) and which others have pointed out was brought forward by others in print before Margaret Murray's work on the subject.

Really!? My take on Murray is that she was addressing Witchcraft primarily in western Europe. I am not aware of the "single universal religion" notion. Now that being said, I do personally believe that in latter times Italic pagan beliefs were carried by the Romans into Celtic lands, which contaminated the indigenous beliefs. I also believe that elements of Italian Witchcraft influenced Gardnerian Wicca. So, there are some natural commonalties between Witchcraft outside of Italy, and some introduced Italic pagan elements (which are also natural to Italian Witchcraft).

Now to muddy the waters further, I also believe that it all can ultimately be traced back to Old Europe, the region described by Gimbutas. This is where I think all European pagan religions share a lineage of transmitted core concepts, including the various traditions of Witchcraft. I do not know if this is the Universal Mother cult that you refer to in connection with Murray. It has been decades since I first read her, and I guess I need to go back again. I am not an advocate of ancient Matriarchal religion per se, but am an advocate of ancient Matrifocal religion.

It's why people like me tend to chime in when we see people say, "yes, witchcraft is a religion" or say things like "Witchcraft is the Old Religion" rather than saying witchcraft can be a religion or in some circumstances is a religion.

I see the confusion. When I refer to Witchcraft as "The Old Religion" I do not mean THE in a universal sense, I am referring directly to Italy. Now when I say the Old Ways, I am referring to the commonality of regional Craft traditions throughout Europe.

Gardner believed Margaret Murray's theories wholeheartedly and presented Wicca as not just a religion based on witchcraft but the religion of Witchcraft (again in terms of it being a singular universal religion.) People who followed naturally repeated the claim until the doubts became open in the modern Pagan community in the 1990s

Hmm, everyone I knew in the 60s looked at Gardner's stuff as something related to Britain. The Hungarian, Polish, and Italian Witches I knew back then acknowledged there were similarities as well as cultural differences.

I remember that there was a bit of an outcry against Hutton's book (similar to a few of the Hutton-bashing posts we've seen here) but then once people had a chance to read and discuss the book it's amazing how opinions changed.

Interesting, I thought the outcry was generally in response to seeing Hutton's work as a debunking of Gardnerian Wicca, as well as a debunking of Witchcraft as an old fertility religion in the British Isles.

We witches must be careful with our language as words do have power. When we talk about "the god of the Witches" we imply that there is a single unified religion of Witches, and that this religion has a single god.

You mean like a horned god? Or do you mean different views of a horned god, or?? I think, as a religion, there are certain things that give Witchcraft its distinction. I think we need to be equally careful not to be so open in our definitions that Witchcraft, as a religion, becomes whatever anyone wants it to be at any given time of the day. Oops, so says the traditionalist - LOL

stella01904

February 15th, 2006, 09:53 PM

I'm going to add my voice of disapproval too over this childish name-calling which is clearly intended to be derogatory. Discussing ideas and sharing opinions, and making claims and providing evidence to support or refute it, is something that we can all engage in respectfully. It happens all the time here at MysticWicks so I know it's possible. Let's keep the level of discussion respectful. No one has to change their minds about anything and we can have differences of opinion at the same time in a respectful way.
MM ~ Apologies all around, for taking a more acid tone than is appropriate here!
I do stand by the things I said. I just should have said them differently.
BB, Stella

stella01904

February 15th, 2006, 09:57 PM

MM ~ Haven't thought about the semantics of the "a religion" up to now. Been saying it as a blanket term for European pre-Christian Pagan fertility religion, I guess that would be the more precise term..."a religion" is much less cumbersome. :)
BB, Stella

Mouse

February 16th, 2006, 12:56 AM

I have not read the new posts here very carefully, I've just skimmed through because I'm distracted, so if I missed something I do apologise, but.. the one thing that stuck out to me here is the statement that Witchcraft can't be a religion because it can fit into any other religion, like cooking. I see your point but then, many other religions can be used inside another religion in the same way, for example, (this is from memory, so I might put it wrongly) In africa christianity is part of their voodoo. both which would be considered religions in their own rights, but are combined together, in this case (as far as i am aware) because originally Voodooists were useing christanity to hide their beliefs and then later absorbed many chrstian elements and symbols into their practices.

Still, no one has yet explaned to me the differences between "witchcraft" and "magic(k)". I believe these terms are not interchangeable, but it seems that they are being used in this way. Maybe it isn't witchcraft people are intergrating into their religions, but the practice of magic(k)?

raven grimassi

February 16th, 2006, 02:30 AM

Maybe it isn't witchcraft people are intergrating into their religions, but the practice of magic(k)?

Yes, I think magic divorced from Witchcraft (the religion) is "sorcery"

arianrhods_daughter

February 16th, 2006, 02:52 AM

I've browsed through bits so I apologise if this sounds a bit stupid but..

why can't witchcraft be both a religion and a practice? If you use it as a religion in itself or add other beliefs to it can it not be both? It's like having the chocolate cake with or without the icing, it's still what it is, and thats witchcraft

raven grimassi

February 16th, 2006, 10:29 AM

why can't witchcraft be both a religion and a practice? If you use it as a religion in itself or add other beliefs to it can it not be both? It's like having the chocolate cake with or without the icing, it's still what it is, and thats witchcraft

The oldest writings appear to indicate that Witchcraft contained both religious and magical elements together within one system. What seems to have happened is that its magic became feared, and thus became a focus of the authorities. I think this was the beginning of separating out the magical craft from the religious practice. Once isolated and emphasized, over the centuries it became the norm to view Witchcraft as the casting of spells, making of potions, and so forth.

stella01904

February 16th, 2006, 10:47 AM

Still, no one has yet explaned to me the differences between "witchcraft" and "magic(k)". I believe these terms are not interchangeable, but it seems that they are being used in this way. Maybe it isn't witchcraft people are intergrating into their religions, but the practice of magic(k)?
MM ~ I don't think they are interchangable at all! I do think that magic is a big part of Witchcraft, it's just not the whole show. :)

If a non-Witch integrates, say, candle magic into their own religion, is this Witchcraft? IMHO no, especially since candle magic is near universal. Here is a Hoodoo link on candle magic:
http://www.luckymojo.com/candlemagic.html

So how can candle magic be Witchcraft if it is Hoodoo? Answer: Magic is a PART of Witchcraft.

No one knows who notched the first candle and set it to burn for seven days, no one knows the race, religious beliefs, or location of the person. (The origins of magical practices are often obscure, since magic was driven underground.)

In the ancient times we might have used torches or oil lamps to achieve the same intensity of focus. I think the focus and visualisation is key, along with power drawn from our dieties and allies. Often I am so tired at the end of the day, I leave dishes in the sink. How is my OWN energy sufficient to draw prosperity, sway decisions, heal people at a distance, etc. etc.? As a Witch, I can't imagine doing "just magic." The magical act alone, without the religion, or with a different religion, is not Witchcraft. I agree, "sorcery" is a better term for magic alone.
BB, Stella
PS Here is an enticing bit of doggerel:
http://www.hedgewytchery.com/craft_links.html
I've got to read this Lethbridge fellow!

Meabh23

February 19th, 2006, 04:39 AM

Yes, I think magic divorced from Witchcraft (the religion) is "sorcery"

I don't know about that.

Sorcery is probably the font from which all cultures base their various religious and magical games upon.

arianrhods_daughter

April 16th, 2006, 04:29 AM

So pretty much its just down to a definition debate

Mouse

April 16th, 2006, 05:06 AM

Again. *rolls eyes*

arianrhods_daughter

April 16th, 2006, 07:56 AM

And again and again and again..

Arion

April 22nd, 2006, 08:46 PM

Isn't witchcraft synonomous with shamanism to an extent, and isnt shamanism a religious practice?

I agree also with what arianrhods_daughter said:

why can't witchcraft be both a religion and a practice? If you use it as a religion in itself or add other beliefs to it can it not be both? It's like having the chocolate cake with or without the icing, it's still what it is, and thats witchcraft

arianrhods_daughter

April 25th, 2006, 06:57 AM

-takes a bow- thanks its nice to know you aren't the only one who thinks something! :)

CzechWoods

April 25th, 2006, 08:41 AM

no shamanism isnt = witchcraft nor religious practice

Dawa Lhamo

April 25th, 2006, 11:03 AM

no shamanism isnt = witchcraft nor religious practiceI agree that it's not synonymous. However, it really depends on how you define religion and religious practice. In very open definitions, especially ones tailored to Eastern cultures as well as Western, yes, it can be religious practice. Korean shamanism, from what I've studied of it, seems very much like a religious practice. But shamanism isn't *necessarily* a religious practice, either, 'tis true.

Ben Gruagach

April 25th, 2006, 11:13 AM

Exactly -- it all comes down to how people are choosing to define specific words, like "shaman," "witch," and even "religion."

Arion

April 25th, 2006, 02:10 PM

I think society today has a pretty effed up concept of what religion is. Like, many people think of it as a set of rules and beliefs that you have to subscribe to, or else. Way, way back in the day, spirituality/religion/law/life-style were all inter-related, were they not? An ancient shaman would practice according to his/her religious/spiritual beliefs. Today "religion" is so organised, formal and public that these kinds of personal spiritual practices are seperated from it. Not too mention that the big religions in western society would think of acquiring psychic or spiritual powers as being either hog-wash or "evil." Wasn't the word "witch" given as a derogatory name to those people who still used shamanic-type practices, which scared the Christians?

Mouse

April 25th, 2006, 10:47 PM

Exactly -- it all comes down to how people are choosing to define specific words, like "shaman," "witch," and even "religion."

Which wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. In 20 pages I think maybe three people saw the point I was making. :bangyourh

Ben Gruagach

April 26th, 2006, 11:00 AM

Which wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. In 20 pages I think maybe three people saw the point I was making. :bangyourh

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're upset about. Is it the fact that there are differences of opinion? Is it because the discussion grew to be about much more than what you posted in that first post in the thread?

Personally I think it's a good thing that we are able to see the diversity of opinion. If everything were black-and-white and everyone agreed on everything the world would be an awfully boring place.

In my understanding, Nature (and thus the Divine, however we perceive It) is inherently diverse. Glorious diversity! I'd much prefer to celebrate it than see it as an annoyance.

Darius

April 26th, 2006, 03:20 PM

Good for you.

Personally, I tried following witchcraft as my religion for some time there. To me, it just wasn't dark enough. Yeah, I dabbled into Nocturnal Witchcraft as well, but that still didn't hit it on the head. Being a vampyre, I needed something truely dark, natured, and it's light content. I moved to the so called "Left Hand Paths".

David19

May 4th, 2006, 04:22 PM

Toby Stimpson

May 4th, 2006, 04:32 PM

I thought i'd just add this here, Scott Cunningham also saw a difference between a witch and a wiccan (i was looking in the back of my Wicca a guide for the Solitary practicioner, in the glossary, it says witchcraft refers to magical practices, or something like that).

BTW, i'm not trying to cause an arguement here, or 'destroy' someone else's beliefs, i'm just adding a different perspective.

haha I dont think you would destroy anyone's beliefs with that...as Im sure sooo many others in this long thread have said....there is a big diference between witchcraft the practice and Wicca...the two are not synonymous.

Mouse if I may be so bold...I have to agree with ben, why are you getting frustrated? I mean you placed this thread up...and well the debate must prove to you that indeed there are many views on this subject and to say one thing might be ok for you but others will have different opinions and strong beliefs depending upon where they are coming from...witchcraft may be a religion but in most cases as there are different types of witchcraft, it in it's self is not a religion. Thats my point of view anyways, yours is different I understand and appreciate that. Just take a deep breath, have a cup of tea or soemthing and please do engage in debate...it looks like a fun thread, Im sorry I didnt get a chance to engage earlier. :D

stella01904

May 4th, 2006, 07:18 PM

Philosophia

May 4th, 2006, 07:25 PM

I think that's about the time that the notion that Witchcraft is not a religion really started making the rounds, when Cunningham started writing. You don't see it with Buckland, Valiente, et.al.
BB,. Stella

No, I think it started a long time before that. Cunningham differentiated between Wicca and Witchcraft.

stella01904

May 4th, 2006, 08:03 PM

I should clarify, I meant in the community itself. Witches considered Witchcraft to be a religion until the 80's or so. A lot of us still do.

The difference between Wicca and Witchcraft is that Witchcraft is a blanket term that would include Wicca, but also the other Pagan European religions. You can be a Witch but not a Wiccan, but if you are a Wiccan, you are a Witch.
Stella

Philosophia

May 4th, 2006, 08:09 PM

I should clarify, I meant in the community itself. Witches considered Witchcraft to be a religion until the 80's or so. A lot of us still do.

Again, I disagree. I know many who practised before the 80's who don't see Witchcraft as a religion. *shrugs*

Mouse

May 4th, 2006, 08:11 PM

I'm frusterated because you all missed the point in the first place. I'm glad there are differences of opinion, it is a good thing. As I've said before, I like to debate with people, I like learning other peoples opinions, however I did not start this thread to debate terminology! If I wanted to debate I would not have started this in Paths.

I'm frusterated because I'm sick of repeating myself. Are you like this in every-day life? Do you get so caught up in what an author calls a book that your forget to actually read it?

I set out my reasons for why I chose the termanology that I did, and was happy to move past that, so I could show other people a path that they may not have considered before, or to give people the opportunity to ask questions about a path that for the most part keeps its secrets orally within the tradition.

I called it what it is -Witchcraft- because that's as I was taught. I don't call it mine or slap a fansy name on it because I did not invent it and have no right to lable it how I see fit.

I should do now what I should have done ten pages or more ago, and that is ask to have the thread closed. I didn't want to because I thought that this path might have something that maybe one or two of the people seeking their own paths on this forum could benifit from, but somehow I think all chances of that are lost.

I hope, for a change, this post of mine is clear. I'm not going to repeat myself any more.
~Miriam