Wicca's Thelemic Roots

[Fr. INRI]

Finally found a link to this article, which, while being a weee bit long, does break some ground in the History of Wicca as it relates to Aleister Crowley and my religion of Thelema. It would make for a good discussion, I think.

http://www.draeconin.com/database/wicca.htm

[RedRaven]

Of course Wicca has its roots in CM :) I hadnt read the article yet but its shown in "The Cauldron of Inspiration" that Gardner did at the very least meet with Crowley a few times before he, Crowley, died in `47 (?). Anyone who does enough research into CM and Traditional Wicca can see the similarities between the two and the things that were borrowed from CM.

RR

[RainInanna]

From what I read Gardner denounced Crowley. Wonder what happened there :)

[RainInanna]

I was quickly skimming over the essay (this is a link to a PDF file) here - http://www.geraldgardner.com/index/Gardner46-49.PDF

You can see the page of Gardner-focused essays that this PDF is posted on (rather than linking right to the PDF) at http://www.geraldgardner.com/index/essays.shtml

[Ben Gruagach]

Just to clarify for people who are reading this thread... RedRaven mentioned a book by Philip Heselton, which is called "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration." It was published in 2003 by Capall Bann books and is available through booksellers like Amazon.com as well as directly from Capall Bann (their website is here (http://www.capallbann.co.uk/).)

The book presents an excellent exploration of Gerald Gardner's involvement in Wicca, including Gardner's involvement with Aleister Crowley and the O.T.O.

It might also be worthwhile noting that Crowley's influence on Wicca didn't come in just through Gardner, but also through other influential early Wiccans. Doreen Valiente was familiar with Crowley's work (she was the one that pointed out the Crowley material in the Book of Shadows to Gardner, so Gardner suggested Valiente rewrite it -- so she did!) Arnold and Patricia Crowther were also familiar with Crowley. Arnold Crowther was the one who introduced Gardner to Crowley and played chauffeur for their visits just before Crowley died.

While Gardner (and many other occultists at that time) probably did admire Crowley and undoubtedly used his published material in their own work, it's not surprising that they might publicly try and distance themselves from him. Crowley had a rather unsavory public reputation (calling himself the Great Beast 666 and all that) so people like Gardner who were trying to promote their own occult stuff as being a positive thing would naturally want to play down connections to Crowley.

[RedRaven]

Just to clarify for people who are reading this thread... RedRaven mentioned a book by Philip Heselton, which is called "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration." It was published in 2003 by Capall Bann books and is available through booksellers like Amazon.com as well as directly from Capall Bann (their website is here (http://www.capallbann.co.uk/).)


yes, thats the one I have :) great book!!

RR

[Fr. INRI]

I need that book.

[RainInanna]

Hi Ben,

Ah, so you think it was just a natural desire to distance oneself from someone so infamous? Do you think he may also have wished to downplay how much he borrowed from Thelema or Ceremonialism in general?

Just curious because it seems a lot of Wiccans I've heard from seem to avoid Ceremonialism and general and Crowley in particular.

From the essay I mentioned it seemed like there was a lot of animousity, which is why I wondered if it was more than just natural distancing. No way to tell I guess.

[RedRaven]

Im not sure why a lot of Wiccans want to avoid the area of CM, I mean it is part of our roots so it just makes sense to atleast study it a bit. I have a few books by Crowley, "Magick Without Tears" and "777", and they are great!

RR

[Ben Gruagach]

Hi Ben,

Ah, so you think it was just a natural desire to distance oneself from someone so infamous? Do you think he may also have wished to downplay how much he borrowed from Thelema or Ceremonialism in general?

Gardner was trying to pass off what he was presenting as an authentic, intact, ancient religion so it doesn't surprise me that he'd downplay the sources where he "borrowed" things. In his publicity of Wicca, he did seem to try and make it out to be a positive and non-threatening thing. Acknowledging or reinforcing connections with Crowley (who the press called the Wickedest Man in the World) would have been counter-productive for Gardner.


Just curious because it seems a lot of Wiccans I've heard from seem to avoid Ceremonialism and general and Crowley in particular.

From the essay I mentioned it seemed like there was a lot of animousity, which is why I wondered if it was more than just natural distancing. No way to tell I guess.

After reading Doreen Valiente's books (particularly her "The Rebirth of Witchcraft") and also Fred Lamond's recent "Fifty Years of Wicca," it seems that Gardner might have changed his initiate training a bit after Doreen left his group to play up the intact-ancient-religion claim. This could account for at least some of the people who came into Wicca after Doreen and Fred having a bias against Crowley and CM in general. Doreen and Fred relate experiences with Gardner which suggest he was a bit more open (and mayber more honest) with them than he seems to have been with subsequent initiates, at least regarding the sources and origins of what he was promoting as Wicca.

These days I think the antipathy is misguided, but people are people and biases do tend to get passed down from teacher to student.

[RainInanna]

Thanks, Ben. I can always count on you for historical knowledge.

RR: I think, for one thing, they want to distance themselves from the Judeo-Christian flavour of CM magic. Also, I think they do want to distance themselves from people like Crowley, often considered a devil worshipper (ie. "The Beast", 666) by those "not in the know". And I think generally they don't realize that Crowley had a lot of amazing magical and spiritual stuff to say and wasn't just a crazy devil worshipper ;)

[Fr. INRI]

The most interesting part of the article, in my mind, is that it makes the following rather juicey points:

1) Gardner was a Thelemite.

2)Wicca was begun as nothing more than a "folksy" version of Thelema.

These two possibilities (and, at the very least, the first one is pretty much fact) raise some very interesting question about the nature of Wicca and the meaning behind it's earliest incarnations.

[cartweel]

The Lance and Graal (http://www.lanceandgraal.com) podcast discusses this exact issue in episodes seven and eight. In episode seven, a man gives a detailed description of Gardner's founding of Wicca; in episode eight, John Crow, host of Thelema Coast to Coast (http://www.thelemacoasttocoast.com), an occult and Thelemic podcast, comments on the description and concentrates on Crowley and Gardner's relationship. It's a great listen, if you're into podcasting.

[RedRaven]

I can certainly understand wanting to distance yourself from hebrew and all that, im the same way! I feel no connection to it at all so something like traditional Golden Dawn style stuff just doesnt work for me. :) there are other styles though, Frater kind of got me going on Thelema and it works perfectly fine with me. I can handle the Egyptian a lot better than the hebrew.

Yours fraternally,
666

lol !! I couldnt help myself

[KEishin]

2)Wicca was begun as nothing more than a "folksy" version of Thelema.

Of course I wonder where that leaves the supposed "traditional witchcraft" element Garnder always said he inherited from Dorothy Clutterbuck. I've yet to fully decide if he made that whole initiation up or not.

I'm not trying to argue the Thelemic roots - they're blindingly evident to anyone who knows what to look for. I just find it interesting that even such a solid practice as Thelema wasn't enough; it needed to have the "traditional" flavor to make it more mainstream.

[RedRaven]

My take on the whole thing is that a great deal of Wicca comes from CM in general BUT according to Frederic Lamond (one of the last surviving members of Gardner`s coven), in his newest book "50 Years of Wicca", the founders (before and up to Gardner) were taking the works of Margaret Murray and trying to do a "reconstruction" of a theory. This makes sense in one reason why they called it "the old religion", back then Murray`s books had some idea of being accurate, its not like today when we know its not accurate at all. So between trying to rebuild a path and CM I think they did really good back when things were being put together.

RR

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm not convinced that Gardner's Wicca was meant to be "folksy Thelema." I do think that Gardner was involved with the OTO (as well as many other things occult and secret-society-like including Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, etc.) and he drew freely from all of them when he was putting together Wicca.

I've also no doubt that he did learn some things from the witches he met in the New Forest area and used those as the central seed of Wicca. What those are exactly are not clear (there seems to be very little left when you account for the things that came from Thelema, Freemasonry, Theosophy, Dion Fortune, etc.) and of course we don't know where the New Forest witches got their material from either. They could have made it up too.

Philip Heselton's book "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" though really does go a long way in suggesting likely sources.

[Fr. INRI]

I doubt that the whole "New Forest" nonsense ever existed. There's no evidence for it, really.


I'm not convinced that Gardner's Wicca was meant to be "folksy Thelema." I do think that Gardner was involved with the OTO (as well as many other things occult and secret-society-like including Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, etc.) and he drew freely from all of them when he was putting together Wicca.

I've also no doubt that he did learn some things from the witches he met in the New Forest area and used those as the central seed of Wicca. What those are exactly are not clear (there seems to be very little left when you account for the things that came from Thelema, Freemasonry, Theosophy, Dion Fortune, etc.) and of course we don't know where the New Forest witches got their material from either. They could have made it up too.

Philip Heselton's book "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" though really does go a long way in suggesting likely sources.

[Ben Gruagach]

I doubt that the whole "New Forest" nonsense ever existed. There's no evidence for it, really.

The evidence that has been presented by Philip Heselton, not to mention the testimony of people like Doreen Valiente and others who met Gardner's "New Forest coven" working partner Dafo, have convinced me that there was a group that Gardner met who he got involved with before he went off on his own and started promoting Wicca.

Of course the question still remains what exactly that pre-Gardnerian group was practicing, whether it was some sort of authentic Pagan survival, or whether they had made it up themselves.

Ronald Hutton presents some of the evidence of pre-Gardnerian witches including people like Dafo. There were other groups too such as the Pentagram Club that Sybil Leek's mother was involved with prior to Gardner's time, but again the question with them is whether they were Wiccan at all, and if they were survivals in any way or modern attempts at creating what they thought a witch cult would be like.

Owen Davies' books "Cunning-Folk" and "Witchcraft, Magic and Culture 1736-1951" present lots of other evidence that there were witches around prior to Gardner. Again, it's still open for debate if any of these people were practicing bona fide Pagan survivals, or were doing something they had made up or borrowed and put together themselves.

[Fr. INRI]

I was generally under the impression that most English witchcraft at the time was of the "cunning folk" persuasion, and Hutton never really makes clear on Dafo's pre-Gardner stuff(I have yet to read Heselton's stuff, but I had heard from another that he was a Wiccan apologist. Any truth to that?). Hutton really never got into Dafo, which I was sort of disapointed about.

As for Sybil Leek....*rolls eyes* I'm gonna need some real evidence to back up ANYTHING remotely involved with that woman. She could tell me she spent all day making up lies about her involvement in Wicca, and I'd still check references.


The evidence that has been presented by Philip Heselton, not to mention the testimony of people like Doreen Valiente and others who met Gardner's "New Forest coven" working partner Dafo, have convinced me that there was a group that Gardner met who he got involved with before he went off on his own and started promoting Wicca.

Of course the question still remains what exactly that pre-Gardnerian group was practicing, whether it was some sort of authentic Pagan survival, or whether they had made it up themselves.

Ronald Hutton presents some of the evidence of pre-Gardnerian witches including people like Dafo. There were other groups too such as the Pentagram Club that Sybil Leek's mother was involved with prior to Gardner's time, but again the question with them is whether they were Wiccan at all, and if they were survivals in any way or modern attempts at creating what they thought a witch cult would be like.

Owen Davies' books "Cunning-Folk" and "Witchcraft, Magic and Culture 1736-1951" present lots of other evidence that there were witches around prior to Gardner. Again, it's still open for debate if any of these people were practicing bona fide Pagan survivals, or were doing something they had made up or borrowed and put together themselves.

[Ben Gruagach]

I was generally under the impression that most English witchcraft at the time was of the "cunning folk" persuasion, and Hutton never really makes clear on Dafo's pre-Gardner stuff(I have yet to read Heselton's stuff, but I had heard from another that he was a Wiccan apologist. Any truth to that?). Hutton really never got into Dafo, which I was sort of disapointed about.

Heselton does present some conclusions that are not solidly supported by the evidence he presents. However, he has presented a huge amount of previously unreported evidence and this alone is valuable as it allows others to examine it and draw their own conclusions. And Heselton's work has provided some excellent direction regarding where more research needs to be done to clear current questions up. You don't have to agree with his conclusions for his work to be important.


As for Sybil Leek....*rolls eyes* I'm gonna need some real evidence to back up ANYTHING remotely involved with that woman. She could tell me she spent all day making up lies about her involvement in Wicca, and I'd still check references.

I agree that dear old Sybil was one for repeating tall tales (like the vast majority of Wiccans before the 1990s, particularly Ronald Hutton's pivotal "Triumph of the Moon"). However it is a historical fact confirmed by Hutton that Sybil's mother was indeed involved in a witchcraft group they called the Pentagram Club prior to Gardner's appearance on the scene.

Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" actually suggests that the influences in English culture and the occult community produced all sorts of Wicca-like groups prior to Gardner; it just happens that Gardner's was the one that really took hold. Perhaps it had to do with Gardner's incessant self-promotion.

Personally I suspect that a lot of the groups were likely started or inspired by people who had connections (one way or another) back to the Golden Dawn. When it fell apart in the early 1900s due to massive personality conflicts and internal politics the former members didn't give up on occultism and alternative spirituality movements altogether. They went on to form other secret societies, occult groups, etc. of various types and sizes so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the members might have decided to start up more folksy or operative magick or spiritual types of groups.

The coven that Gardner met in the New Forest could have been started by a former Golden Dawn member. Heselton talks about the likely person in "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration." The former-Golden-Dawn person was likely a woman named Rosamund Sabine (nee Carnsew), "Mother Sabine" to Gardner, and known by the Golden Dawn name of "Vacuna" (a Roman Sabine goddess.) Rosamund Sabine also lived near by where both Dorothy Clutterbuck and also Edith Woodford-Grimes ("Dafo") lived so it's not unlikely that they might have all known each other.

Philip Heselton's book gives the details in much more depth than I've given here.

[Ptah]

I doubt that the whole "New Forest" nonsense ever existed. There's no evidence for it, really.

Would there be any evidence if it were a truly secret society?

[Ptah]

I have always been of the impression it was neither one way or the other but a mixture of the two, with a little imagination thrown in. For the most part Thelema added structure, tools and a few magickal components. The "cunning folk' added the spirituality, herbalism and folk magick. The sabbats (at least 4 of them) are recent inventions, as are the political guidings of the coven (99 laws, rede.. etc.). It is obvious that GD (Thelema) had a large influence on Wicca and that there have been other components added, as well.

Too many times we try to find the answers where there truly are none. We want to verify things that really make no difference and in the process we tend to cripple ourselves spiritually. There has to be a component of faith in what we do, and faith is the belief in things unproven, or the mystery is lost.

Sorry, I read the thread and it got me thinking. FYI, I was but am no longer a practicing (coven) Wiccan of the Order of the Golden Cross (Phoenix Roundtree) whose original founders were a French Witch and a Member of the Houston, Tx OTO. It seems to be a good marriage of energies, if you ask me.

[Fr. INRI]

I think I'm just gonna take notes everytime you talk. You rock dude.


Heselton does present some conclusions that are not solidly supported by the evidence he presents. However, he has presented a huge amount of previously unreported evidence and this alone is valuable as it allows others to examine it and draw their own conclusions. And Heselton's work has provided some excellent direction regarding where more research needs to be done to clear current questions up. You don't have to agree with his conclusions for his work to be important.



I agree that dear old Sybil was one for repeating tall tales (like the vast majority of Wiccans before the 1990s, particularly Ronald Hutton's pivotal "Triumph of the Moon"). However it is a historical fact confirmed by Hutton that Sybil's mother was indeed involved in a witchcraft group they called the Pentagram Club prior to Gardner's appearance on the scene.

Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" actually suggests that the influences in English culture and the occult community produced all sorts of Wicca-like groups prior to Gardner; it just happens that Gardner's was the one that really took hold. Perhaps it had to do with Gardner's incessant self-promotion.

Personally I suspect that a lot of the groups were likely started or inspired by people who had connections (one way or another) back to the Golden Dawn. When it fell apart in the early 1900s due to massive personality conflicts and internal politics the former members didn't give up on occultism and alternative spirituality movements altogether. They went on to form other secret societies, occult groups, etc. of various types and sizes so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the members might have decided to start up more folksy or operative magick or spiritual types of groups.

The coven that Gardner met in the New Forest could have been started by a former Golden Dawn member. Heselton talks about the likely person in "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration." The former-Golden-Dawn person was likely a woman named Rosamund Sabine (nee Carnsew), "Mother Sabine" to Gardner, and known by the Golden Dawn name of "Vacuna" (a Roman Sabine goddess.) Rosamund Sabine also lived near by where both Dorothy Clutterbuck and also Edith Woodford-Grimes ("Dafo") lived so it's not unlikely that they might have all known each other.

Philip Heselton's book gives the details in much more depth than I've given here.

[Ben Gruagach]

I think I'm just gonna take notes everytime you talk. You rock dude.

Some would say it's because I read too much. (My sweetheart teases me that my bibliophilia is a disease like alcoholism.)

[KEishin]

It's not a disease . . . at least until you have to reinforce the floor to support all the books. :D

I know from experience.

[Ben Gruagach]

It's not a disease . . . at least until you have to reinforce the floor to support all the books. :D

I know from experience.

I'll have to remember that argument. It might come in handy!

(We haven't had to reinforce any floors... yet!)