Lesson 2 -- Black Magic

[~Elise~]

This could result in a heated discussion--please keep things civil. Remember our rule - RESPECT

Black Magic--does it exist?

This is my point of view on things.
The definition I give my IRL students is that magic is the ability to change reality at will.
Magic is like electricity. It is universal energy out there waiting to be tapped into. There is not white or black electric--there is no white or black magic.
white and black magic get into having a value assigned to them. WE, as society, place that value.

This is just an excerpt from a very long article, That Old Black Magic, by Judy Harrow:

Saying "black" when we mean "evil" is nasty nonsense. In the first place, it reinforces the racist stereotypes that corrupt our society. And that's not all. Whenever we say "black" instead of "bad," we repeat again the big lie that darkness is wrong. It isn't, as people who profess to love Nature should know. Darkness can mean the inside of the womb, and the seed germinating within the Earth, and the chaos that gives rise to all truly new beginnings. In our myths, the one who goes down to the underworld returns with the treasure. Even death, to the pagan understanding, is well-earned rest and comfort, and a preparation for new birth. Using "black" to mean "bad" is a blasphemy against the Crone.

But even if we no longer speak of magic as "black" or "white," we still need to think and speak about the ethics of magic. Although black is not evil, some actions are evil. It simply is not true that anything a person is strong enough or skilled enough to do is OK, nor should doing what we will ever be the whole of the law for us. We need a clear and specific vocabulary that enables us to choose wisely what we will do.

We need to replace the word "black," not simply to drop it. Some Pagans have tried using "negative" as their substitute, but that turned out to be confusing. For some people, "negative" means any spell to diminish or banish anything. Some things - tumors, depression, bigotry - are harmful. There's nothing wrong with a working to get rid of bad stuff. "Left-handed" is another common term for wrongful practice, very traditional, but just as ignorant, superstitious and potentially harmful as the phrase "black magic" itself. So in Proteus we tried using the word "unethical." That's a lot better - free of extraneous and false implications - but still too vague. Gradually, I began to wonder whether using any one word, "black" or "unethical" or whatever, might just be too general and too subjective.

If ethical principles are going to survive the twin tests of time and temptation, people need to understand just what to avoid, and why. Even more important, they need a basis for figuring out what to do instead. Especially when it comes to projective magic.
Projective magic means active workings, the kind in which we project our will out into the world to make some kind of change. This is what most people think of when they use the word magic at all. Quite clearly, magic that may affect other people is magic that can harm. This is the basis of the proverb "a Witch who can't hex can't heal." Either you can raise and direct power, or you can't. Your strength and skill can be used for blessing or for bane. The choice - and the karma - are yours.

Just as some people feel that strength and skill are their own justification, others feel that any projective magic is always wrong - that it is a distraction from our one true goal of union with the Divine or a willful avoidance of the judgements of Karma. I think these attitudes are equally inconsistent with basic pagan philosophy.

We are taught that we will find the Lady within ourselves or not at all, that the Mother of All has been with us from the beginning. We can't now establish a union that was always there. All we can do, all we need to do, is become aware. Knowing what it feels like to heal and empower, again and again till you can't dismiss it as coincidence, is one of the most powerful methods for awakening that awareness. It makes no sense to say that the direct experience and exercise of our indwelling divinity distracts from the Great Work.
Indeed, it is this intimate connection between our magic and our self-realization that our ethics protect. Wrongful use of magic will choke the channel. No short term gain could ever compensate for that.

The karmic argument against practical workings seems to me to arise from a paranoid and defeatist world view. Even if we assume that the hardships in this life were put there by the Gods for a reason, how can we be so sure that the reason was punishment? Perhaps instead of penance to be endured, our difficulties are challenges to be met. Coping and dealing with our problems, learning magical and mundane skills, changing ourselves and our world for the better - in short, growing up - is that not what the Gods of joy and freedom want from us?

One of the most radically different things about a polytheistic belief system is that each one of us has the right, and the need, to choose which God/desses will be the focus of our worship. We make these choices knowing that whatever energies we invoke most often in ritual will shape our own further growth. Spiritual practices are a means of self-programming. So we are responsible for what we worship in a way that people who take their One God as a given are not.

Think about this: what kind of Power actively wants us to submit and suffer, and objects when we develop skills to improve our own lives? Not a Being I'd want to invite around too often!

So it will not work for us to rule out projective magic completely; nor should we. Total prohibitions are as thoughtless as total permissiveness or blind obedience. Ethical and spiritual adults ought to be able to make distinctions and well-reasoned choices. I offer here a start toward analysing what kinds of magic are not ethical for us.

Black magic is magic done for the explicit purpose of causing harm to another person. Usually the reason for it is revenge, and the rationalization is justice. People who defend the practice of baneful magic often ask "but wouldn't you join in cursing another Hitler?"

For adults there is no rule without exceptions. If you think you would never torture somebody, consider this scenario: in just half an hour the bomb will go off, killing everybody in the city, and this terrorist knows where it is hidden....
It's a bad mistake to base your ethics on wildly unlikely cases, since none of us honestly knows how we would react in that kind of extreme. Reasonable ethical statements are statements about the behaviors we expect of ourselves under normally predictable circumstances.

We all get really angry on occasion, and sometimes with good cause. Then revenge can seem like no more than simple justice. The anger is a normal, healthy human reaction, and should not be repressed. But there's no more need to act it out in magic than in physical violence. Instead of going for revenge - and invoking the karmic consequences of baneful magic - identify what you really need. For example, if your anger comes from a feeling that you have been attacked or violated, what you need is protection and safe space. Work for the positive goal, it's both more effective and safer.

But not every other magician is ethical. Psychic attacks do happen. Should we not defend ourselves? Of course we should. Leaving ourselves open to psychic attack is no good example of the autonomy and assertiveness our chosen Gods expect. But first, how can we be sure what we are experiencing really is psychic attack?

The fantasy of psychic attack is often a convenient excuse that allows us to avoid looking at our own shortcomings. When lack of rest or improper nutrition is the cause of illness, or a project isn't completed on time because of distraction, it's a real temptation to put the blame outside ourselves. Doing this too easily betrays our autonomy just as badly as meek submission to attack does. Then, to compound matters, projected blame becomes an excuse for unjust revenge -- and that is baneful magic without excuse.

Once in a rare while, some fool really does try to throw a whammy. It's hard to predict when you might be targeted. Passive shields are always a good idea. Like a mirror, these are totally inactive until somebody sends unwelcome energy. Then a shield will protect you completely and bounce back whatever is being thrown. You may not even know consciously when your shield is working, but the result is perfect justice.
Perfect justice; elegant and efficient. You won't hurt anybody out of paranoia or by mistake. And perfect protection, even though we do not have perfect knowledge.

So, baneful magic, besides being painful in the short run and crippling in the long run, is never necessary. There are better ways of self protection, and retribution is the business of the Gods.

Coercive magic is magic that targets another person to make them give us something we want or need. When most people think of the "Magic Power of Witchcraft," this is what they have in mind.

The spell to make the teacher give you a good grade, or the supervisor give you a good evaluation, the spell to make the personnel officer or renting agent choose you, the spell to attract that cute guy, all are examples of coercive magic.

So, what's wrong with high grades, a good job, a raise, a nice apartment and a sexy lover? There's nothing at all wrong with those goals. An it harm none, do what ye will. As long as nobody is hurt, go for it! But don't strive toward good ends by coercive means.

Are you beginning to think that magic is useless? Did I just rule out all the good stuff: love charms, job magic, spells for good grades? Not at all. It is not only ethical but good for you to do lots of magic to improve your own life. Whenever it works you will get more than you asked for - because along with whatever you asked for comes one more experience of your own effectiveness, your power-from-within.

Work on yourself and your own needs and desires without targeting other people. Then feel free! Ask for what you want. Visualize it and raise power for it and act in accordance on the material plane. "I need a caring and horny lover with a good sense of humor." "I want an affordable apartment near where my coven meets with a tree outside my window." "I need to be at my best when I take that exam next week." Fulfill your dreams, and sometimes let the Gods surprise you with gifts beyond your dreams.


So, what do y'all think? Let the discussion ensue....

Elise

[smckim]

:thumbsup: I think the "good or evil/black or white" is in the heart and intentions of the practitioner. Magick is neither black or white, it is the practitioner that is willing the outcome right?

[slave_isabel]

I as a new witch do not see magic as black and white/good and bad. All humans have the capacity for good or evil. For those that use their magic it really depends on whether they are using it with a good heart and intentions or whether they are using it to cause chaos and disruption. Even the best of magic if used to hurt someone or for selfish gain can be called evil. By selfish means I mean magic is used to get something they want at the cost of someone else being used and/or hurt.The same with some of the darker magic, if used to bind or protect it cannot be called it evil. Magic becomes what your intentions make it into.

[Rin Daemoko]

Certainly when one works magic, you accept that in order to create something new (or to encourage change) you have to be prepared to destroy. All things arise from other things. This is called "dependent origination." So to separately classify a type of "destructive magic" is redundant since all magic destroys in some way.

That said, I do not have a problem with magic worked for the intent of harming other people. This is because I have never heard of or seen an example in which such magic has ever worked on anyone other than the one doing the spellcasting.

Many people need to learn lessons the hard way, and one of the most difficult to learn is how to deal with anger and hatred. You can just wash away those feelings with thoughts of love and peace, because that would be lying to yourself. Self-deceipt is a terrible thing and should not be perpetuated. Rather, it is healthier for one to accept "bad" feelings and to experience them fully. I don't mean to say that you should act on those feelings, I mean to say that you should never deny them or pretend that you don't feel them.

In the past I worked magic with the intent of harming others. The only real satisfaction I got out of it was that it provided for an emotional release. It was a place to channel all of that anger and sorrow, and it felt good. I never saw any real results from the magic, and it took me a while to realize that lust for results keeps people from acknowledging the beneficial side of "bad magic."

Ask any experienced spellcaster and they'll tell you how potent spells can become when you invest emotions in them. They'll tell you about the relief they feel after working intense magics. This cathartic experience is one of incredible value and benefit - whether or not your work manifests in reality.

Now, should one work harmful magic, and should it manifest and actually cause harm, one of two things will happen. Either you'll feel bad about it and realize compassion and wisdom, or you'll re-enforce your anger-indulging mind and you'll continue to work harmful magic until (innevitably) your ego takes a dive. At which point you'll probably realize compassion and wisdom. In any case, the out come is the same: If allowed to, people will naturally gravitate toward enlightenment.

I don't think a person should refrain from "harmful magic" because they fear the law of return, or karmic consequence, or punishment of any sort. That has got to be the worst reason to abstain from harmful magic ever. It teaches you nothing of value. It teaches you to be motivated by fear of punishment, which naturally leads to the sort of thinking of "well, if I can do it and get away with it, why not?" Which isn't always healthy.

A person should refrain from harmful magic only when they decide they should. When they have cultivated a level of compassion and wisdom which compels them to act in a manner congruent with their compassion and wisdom. Whatever manner that may be.

Having said that, I also don't think it's helpful to only work "good" magic. Magic worked only to make you feel good is equally unhealthy as it creates a tendancy to seek out happy feelings as a sort of addiction. When you classify "bad" and "good" magic, you create a trap for yourself. When you tell yourself that you only work "good" magic, it's like the heroin addict searching for their next hit. Similarly, if you tell yourself that you're working "bad" magic you're falling into the same trap. Only whereas you're seeking instant gratification with "good" magic, you're seeking abuse with "bad" magic.

Attachment and aversion, with are two sides of the same coin.

Which leads me back to my opening point about accepting destruction as part of creation. Though "creation" and "destruction" seem to be dualistic, they're only dualistic in their terminology, when really they're illusory parts of Change. Change is healthy, since change is the only real constant in the Universe. It's neither good nor bad, since it's responsible for the production and deconstruction of those very concepts!

Before I turn this into an essay, I'll end this opinion piece here.

</opinion>

[¢edric Špecter]

I think the "good or evil/black or white" is in the heart and intentions of the practitioner. Magick is neither black or white, it is the practitioner that is willing the outcome right?

I completly agree with you.

[medit8ive_spirit]

Magick-good/bad??? No heated debate here! There is not good/bad magick or black/white magick. The only good/bad issue is in the intent of the person practicing. If their intent is positive; positive magick. If their intent is harmful, hurtful, disrespective of/towards someone else; negative magick. One should always keep in mind the following: "As ye harm none, do as ye will." and also ".....good intentions sent out, return threefold(sometimes more), bad intentions sent out.....well, best not to go there.

[~Elise~]

Certainly when one works magic, you accept that in order to create something new (or to encourage change) you have to be prepared to destroy. All things arise from other things. This is called "dependent origination." So to separately classify a type of "destructive magic" is redundant since all magic destroys in some way.

That said, I do not have a problem with magic worked for the intent of harming other people. This is because I have never heard of or seen an example in which such magic has ever worked on anyone other than the one doing the spellcasting.

Many people need to learn lessons the hard way, and one of the most difficult to learn is how to deal with anger and hatred. You can just wash away those feelings with thoughts of love and peace, because that would be lying to yourself. Self-deceipt is a terrible thing and should not be perpetuated. Rather, it is healthier for one to accept "bad" feelings and to experience them fully. I don't mean to say that you should act on those feelings, I mean to say that you should never deny them or pretend that you don't feel them.

In the past I worked magic with the intent of harming others. The only real satisfaction I got out of it was that it provided for an emotional release. It was a place to channel all of that anger and sorrow, and it felt good. I never saw any real results from the magic, and it took me a while to realize that lust for results keeps people from acknowledging the beneficial side of "bad magic."

Ask any experienced spellcaster and they'll tell you how potent spells can become when you invest emotions in them. They'll tell you about the relief they feel after working intense magics. This cathartic experience is one of incredible value and benefit - whether or not your work manifests in reality.

Now, should one work harmful magic, and should it manifest and actually cause harm, one of two things will happen. Either you'll feel bad about it and realize compassion and wisdom, or you'll re-enforce your anger-indulging mind and you'll continue to work harmful magic until (innevitably) your ego takes a dive. At which point you'll probably realize compassion and wisdom. In any case, the out come is the same: If allowed to, people will naturally gravitate toward enlightenment.

I don't think a person should refrain from "harmful magic" because they fear the law of return, or karmic consequence, or punishment of any sort. That has got to be the worst reason to abstain from harmful magic ever. It teaches you nothing of value. It teaches you to be motivated by fear of punishment, which naturally leads to the sort of thinking of "well, if I can do it and get away with it, why not?" Which isn't always healthy.

A person should refrain from harmful magic only when they decide they should. When they have cultivated a level of compassion and wisdom which compels them to act in a manner congruent with their compassion and wisdom. Whatever manner that may be.

Having said that, I also don't think it's helpful to only work "good" magic. Magic worked only to make you feel good is equally unhealthy as it creates a tendancy to seek out happy feelings as a sort of addiction. When you classify "bad" and "good" magic, you create a trap for yourself. When you tell yourself that you only work "good" magic, it's like the heroin addict searching for their next hit. Similarly, if you tell yourself that you're working "bad" magic you're falling into the same trap. Only whereas you're seeking instant gratification with "good" magic, you're seeking abuse with "bad" magic.

Attachment and aversion, with are two sides of the same coin.

Which leads me back to my opening point about accepting destruction as part of creation. Though "creation" and "destruction" seem to be dualistic, they're only dualistic in their terminology, when really they're illusory parts of Change. Change is healthy, since change is the only real constant in the Universe. It's neither good nor bad, since it's responsible for the production and deconstruction of those very concepts!

Before I turn this into an essay, I'll end this opinion piece here.

</opinion>

This is an awesome piece and very well written. Feel free to express your opinion anytime.

[~Elise~]

Magick-good/bad??? No heated debate here! There is not good/bad magick or black/white magick. The only good/bad issue is in the intent of the person practicing. If their intent is positive; positive magick. If their intent is harmful, hurtful, disrespective of/towards someone else; negative magick. One should always keep in mind the following: "As ye harm none, do as ye will." and also ".....good intentions sent out, return threefold(sometimes more), bad intentions sent out.....well, best not to go there.

As I've said before I'm not wiccan and do not follow the Rede. In my opinion the Rede goes AGAINST the law of the Universe. Energy can not be destroyed, it is only transformed. and for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Now, this is a Universal LAW, how can it come back three times?

Not jumping on you, per se, I'm just using this post as an example. so please don't feel like I'm personally attacking you.

Here is a parable for you.

I want you to see a nice, little white bunny hopping through the garden. Oh, he's so cute and fluffy--couldn't possibly cause any harm, right?

WRONG--that one little bunny hopping through the garden eats the veggies, becoming fatter and fatter--he invites a couple of his bunny buddies over, as well.

Well--that cute little bunny who couldn't possibly hurt anyone has just eaten the majority of the farmer's crops. He doesn't have enough to sell at market to make money to buy clothing for his family. He doesn't have enough to even feed his children through the winter and they die of starvation.

That little bunny ain't so cute now is he? No, in fact he's probably considered to be pretty evil now, huh?

Well--he isn't--he's just a bunny doing what a bunny does--existing and trying to create life for himself.

That same applies to magic. It is like electricity...it is neither good nor evil, it just is. When that electricity warms you and lights your way, it's good. when it electrocutes you--it's not so good.

People say that it is the intent that makes it good or bad...magic isn't good nor bad, it just is. My intent is to heal someone of an illness so I do magic to do that...it's good, right? But is it? I have to kill the bad cells or germs causing that illness--and killing is bad or black magic, right? It isn't really intention, it is perception, I believe.

I could argue both sides of this discussion though, so I'm going to end this now.

JMO

Elise

[StarCraftLia]

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[Serendipity]

I do not believe good can exsist without the bad (and vice versa). There is a natural balance, much like Yin and Yang.

I agree with the person who said that the 'black and white/good and bad' is in the persons heart. And I do not condone intentionally malicious behavior.

[medit8ive_spirit]

My comment was not to imply that all follow the rede.....there are general rules/laws in life no matter what path/religion/upbringing that you have. (i.e. the rede, the Ten Commandments, the laws of the Koran, or the general law that is just about anywhere that you live-Don't kill/steal-it lands you in jail/prison; those are things a person just shouldn't do).

As in all things, there is positive and negative-but my personal opinion (since I thought that was what your question was originally asking for-and keeping in mind the RESPECT thing) is that yes, there is good/bad in almost anything in the world, and for every action, there is an equal or greater reaction.

I have Celtic roots as well as Native American roots and have always been taught that true magick was only used for good. I understand your posting about in good magick used to heal someone, you have to kill the 'bad' germs.....but the magick used and the intent is all for good.

[Crystal Raven]

I personally appreciated the clarification on black/dark and like the term "unethical" magick. Ever since I was young, 4 or 5 even, I was considered a "dark" child. Not because I ever did anything bad, but because I was more solemn and serious than other children. As I grew older and added shyness, intelligence and a ton of bad experiences to my repetoire I was consdiered even more "dark". In my late teens I discovered I was colour blind, by wearing what I thought was a matching grey pants and sweater, only to find out the sweater was mint green and everyone thought I looked ridiculous, so I started wearing black everything as I didn't have to worry if it matched (and I still do). Plus The Morrigan found me and so I celebrate the Dark Moon far more often than the Full. When I found the path, some of those I met with similar interests automaticly assumed I was either a "pretender" or aspiring to use "Black Magick". I am not evil, wouldn't harm a soul (unless they were a serious harmful threat to me and mine) and hate this assumption.
I completely agree that magick is only as "ethical/unethical" as the intent of the creator, as many things in our world are.

[~Elise~]

Just to lighten the mood--one of my favorite variations on the opposite reaction law is That for every Action there is an equal and opposite Criticism.
(and boy, have I found that to be true while doing things out in the public community)

Elise

[MariThorn]

Magic is, as Pearl stated, energy, and energy does not have morals or rules that govern whether it is good or bad. Energy is simply out there for us to learn to harness, respect, use, and then send back out into the universe. As with the rabbit example . . . humans are the only ones who see black and white (with shades of grey), or good and bad. I guarantee that the rabbit didn't cackle to itself while eating the lettuce that it was going to wreak havoc on the farmer's family. It was simply hungry . . . humans are the only mammals that have come up with ethics, morals, and codes of conduct that govern our lives. It is no surprise to me that these ethics have transferred over into the Craft, irregardless of what path it is, and that we have things we shouldn't do . . . or else something bad will happen to us.

As for good or bad magic . . . it is not only the intent of the user, but how you word it that can affect how the energy is manifested. You could have the best of intentions, and word your spell wrong and get bad results. (I speak from experience here . . .) I know someone who worked a prosperity spell . . . no it wasn't me . . . and sent the energy out with no specifics. She received her money, but it was the insurance policy of her father. She is still a relatively depressed individual, but wealthy. If it is one thing I've learned it is to make sure:
1. I really need whatever it is I am seeking, and it isn't attainable in any other way.
2. That I'm not doing something out of spite, anger, or jealousy. (Intent will color the magic.)
3. That to the best of my knowledge, after much meditating, that no one is really going to be adversely affected by what I do.
4. That I word my spell correctly with a lot of thought before speaking it.

Now, on that note . . . even if you do not have a Rede, or Code of Conduct, everything does have an effect when it is sent out. If we are trying to attain and learn Truth, which is imo what my purpose here is, then there are going to be times we goof up. There are things that even early mankind inherently knew was wrong. I believe that these things were and are revealed to us by Truth itself. And while we may learn how to manipulate energy, we also as children of Truth have a responsibility to not abuse that right. There will always be those who use energy the wrong way. Which is one reason I walk a Warrior's path spiritually to protect with my knowledge those who cannot or will not.

Not sure any of that made sense . . . LOL . . . I get longwinded at times.
Marithorn

[amakaliani]

But, on to my thoughts. I have been reading and rereading this lesson from the prior class trying to wrap my brain around the ideas running around in there. For example, I am a priestess ( as I have stated before) yet, I generally only work to heal or help. However, the Goddess that I call my power from is one of the traditional "Dark Goddesses", Kali. She is the destruction and salvation, protector of women and children. Before reading this article it really didn't cement itself that I have been following what some would term as "Evil - as she is Dark" (Case in point, my father swears that since I follow her and not Jesus, I am going to hell).

Upon thinking of this topic for the last week or so, I am coming to realize that while I do myself follow the Witches Crede and as well as the threefold law, the black/white thought has definitely raised some questions. I have however decided that I agree with the term "Baneful" Magick. I was sitting there going through some spells last night with a friend who has a decent base in ethics, and was trying to explain to her (without using the term black or 'evil') why it might not be a good idea to do a love spell. I was trying to explain to her that when you involve someone else in your spellcasting that it then becomes a question of ethics.

Then she showed me the spell she wrote to send negativity back to someone, and I had to stop and think about that one. Realizing here that I did just the same thing. Without going into too much detail here, lets say that I did a spell along those lines directed at my father. He hurt me a GREAT deal, in ways of course that a "christian" father should not have. But, I did, I asked that he expierence the same pain and hurts that I knew from his hands. Let me tell you this, it did nothing to him, except maybe make him turn more and more to hiding within his religion ("Jesus forgave me, now you should too"), but what it did to me was rough. I found myself being more and more absorbed with wanting to see what my dad was going through.


That said, I do not have a problem with magic worked for the intent of harming other people. This is because I have never heard of or seen an example in which such magic has ever worked on anyone other than the one doing the spellcasting
Wow, pretty good observastion there.

As for the Rede, while I class myself as Wiccan for legal purposes, I am an eclectic pagan, and for me to realize that within myself there is not one iota of Black/White Magick - becuase I am taken up with only the ability to do the spells and the personal moral code to know if I am doing the spell for the "ethical" reasons. Or if I am doing them for personal glory. I know that if I ask for prosperity (which i have) then I might not get actual cash, becuase as it has been stated the Dieties have a sense of humor, and it is not always our idea of "funny".

But, this is a convoluted way of saying that I feel that only when the spell castor has harmful thoughts or immoral feelings leading thier thoughts, that it is then what I could consider "baneful" magick, and if there are postive healing thoughts involved in a well thought out and planned spell, then it can be used to the postive helping side. I also understand that when there is postive and healing energies placed in a spell, that it can still be considered "negative or hindering" to others. This falls under my general life perceptions......

"My problems are always going to be worse than yours, and Your problems will always be worse than mine." It is a matter of PERCEPTION.

Forgive the meandering thoughts, all week I have thought about this, and have been trying to put it into words, and still am having a hard time classifying things.:sadeyes:

[~Elise~]

When you do a justice spell or realization spell you HAVE to release all attachment to the outcome of the spell. (as you do with any energy work). If you turn it over to the Old Ones to handle...let Them handle it. You can't keep watching for the results, you're drawing the energy away from the work you've done. You know what they say...a watched pot never boils.

Again, JMO

Elise

[Geministar]

Well agree with alot of what all of you have said personally. I agree especially with the point that magic is electricity and that it has no morals, and doesnt really care what "type" of magic we perform. I used to consider myself a solitary wiccan but now I consider myself an eclectic solitary wiccan witch(yes I know, its a mouthful) because I realized I didnt agree with everything that the wiccan religion teaches, especially with the three fold law and how your only suppose to practice "white" magic. Nature isnt black or white its everything, and so am I. I would never intentionally hurt anyone and thats enough of a "rule" for me to follow.
I just follow what feels right in my heart always whether that be "good" or "bad".

[MariThorn]

When you do a justice spell or realization spell you HAVE to release all attachment to the outcome of the spell. (as you do with any energy work). If you turn it over to the Old Ones to handle...let Them handle it. You can't keep watching for the results, you're drawing the energy away from the work you've done. You know what they say...a watched pot never boils.

Again, JMO

Elise

This also goes with a binding spell. If you cannot release your anger and hurt, then you don't need to do the spell. At some point you are fooling yourself, and your negative thoughts and feelings will eventually mar the binding. Justice is a two edged sword, and what you think is just may not be what really is just. Be very careful before seeking the aid of Truth in regards to Justice. When you send out energy, you've done your part. You truly have to walk away and let Truth or Godde handle it. If you don't, then be prepared for a mess instead of an answer.

[LadyAriana]

I've never been one of the "love and light" crowd, where you only work "white" magick. I'm more of the ying/yang philosophy. Without darkness, how can there be light?

As for using negative/black/dark magick, I do believe that what you do comes back to you in a form or another, so I only go on the offensive if I feel threatened or if those I care about are going to be hurt. Other than that, I try to stay neutral, it keeps my life calm.

[Sun_and_Saturn]

I don't believe magick is good or evil. And I don't like the "color" associations with magick, as I see it as ignorance. The intentions and outcome of magick can influence it to seem good or bad, but I agree with the analogy using electricity as an example. I do believe that people can influence magick to harm someone else.

I also am not Wiccan, nor do I follow the Rede. However, I do try not to harm someone if I don't HAVE to. Now, if I need to work a protection/karma spell and someone's OWN actions come back to bite them, well, that's their own problem. And as far as coercive magick goes, if I NEED something, and I do mean REALLY NEED it, and I have to use coercive magick to get it, I'm not above it.

[Salanthos]

I was going to reply earlier, but I was visiting my parents, and their internet went down(AOL... Sigh...), taking my book - I mean, comment :lol: - with it. Ok, here it is again.

"black magic is a matter of symbolism and intent"
I can't remember where I heard this, but this quote fits my definition of harmful magic, though I prefer the word malicious to black. the use of dark or black perpetuates the sterotypes that light is better than dark, instead of both being natural parts of the world, balances, yin and yang, and so on. the name 'malicious' magic, I think, serves better - magic done with malice intended toward anyone is wrong, however this term is without the sterotypes inherent in using 'black' or 'dark'.

Magic can not itself be inherently wrong, it is what is done with it and why that determines whether it is ethical. it is, as has already been mentioned, a force of nature, which can be used in ways that are both beneficial and harmful (sometimes stimultainiously). it can be used to harm or to heal, but it is not inherently a power relating to one or the other. and, as has also been previously been mentioned, that which heals one is harming another - that which originally caused harm.

Intent is the litmus test of magical ethics. doing anything for the wrong reasons is likely to cause problems. if someone intends harm to come of a overtly beneficial act, it is still malicious. I do beleive what you send out comes back, but it is more th intent than the specifics. the same action can have wildly differing karmic reactions - if, for example, you harm someone because you don't like them, you get karmic backlash. if you do the same thing to the same person, for diffrent reasons - say, if it is to protect someone else, you get positive karma. the diffrence is the WHY of the action.

I think it is just as unethical to, say, heal a murderer for the sole purpose of allowing him to murder again, as it is to try to destroy someone's life of jealousy. it is as ethical to harm someone for the purpose of preventing greater harm as it is to heal someone. it is not the act but the intent which distinguishes the right from wrong.

as for those who would argue justice, as a reason for setting forth malicious magics (I have known a few), justice can be seperated from vengance - seeking redress for wrongs done is not the same as malicious. as it says in my sig - "We are not pacifists. Allowing harm to continue is not harming none; it is harming all."-Doreen
Asking for justice is, in my opinion, preventing further harm. simple vengance is, again in my own opinion, incurring further harm.

and that is my opinion of malicious magic.

[~Elise~]

Well agree with alot of what all of you have said personally. I agree especially with the point that magic is electricity and that it has no morals, and doesnt really care what "type" of magic we perform. I used to consider myself a solitary wiccan but now I consider myself an eclectic solitary wiccan witch(yes I know, its a mouthful) because I realized I didnt agree with everything that the wiccan religion teaches, especially with the three fold law and how your only suppose to practice "white" magic. Nature isnt black or white its everything, and so am I. I would never intentionally hurt anyone and thats enough of a "rule" for me to follow.
I just follow what feels right in my heart always whether that be "good" or "bad".

Your comment about Nature brings to mind my favorite line from a very early teacher of mine that I had briefly: When you pick up a stick; you pick up both ends.

You have to know how to handle both ends to do effective magic.

JMO

Elise

[~Elise~]

This also goes with a binding spell. If you cannot release your anger and hurt, then you don't need to do the spell. At some point you are fooling yourself, and your negative thoughts and feelings will eventually mar the binding. Justice is a two edged sword, and what you think is just may not be what really is just. Be very careful before seeking the aid of Truth in regards to Justice. When you send out energy, you've done your part. You truly have to walk away and let Truth or Godde handle it. If you don't, then be prepared for a mess instead of an answer.

I agree with you on this point about binding spells, as well.

Justice Spells---Justice carries a two-edged sword. If you ask for Justice, you better be darn sure that your hands are clean because if not, you'll get the Justice you deserve, as well.

If you can't walk away and release all attachment to the situation when you ask for the Old Ones help, don't do it then. It's the Let go and let Gods POV. You have to let go.

JMO again,

Elise

[ravenscape]

Wow, some really great essays and POVs here. I may be going off on a bit of a tangent in my response, but these are issues I spend a lot of time thinking about of late.

I'm an eclectic Pagan, and although I subscribe to the concept of Karma, particularly aggregate Karma, I don't believe something so formulaic as the Threefold Law works in reality. We are all born into situations not of our making. Whether we have unusual burdens due to family, to geography, to history, or (as most of us) due to a concatenation of many influences, we nevertheless do live in situations that are not of our making. The Earth is a closed system, and as thousands, millions of decisions are made over centuries that perpetuate living beyond our planet's means, then ALL who are born in each succeeding generation inherit a lesser legacy than could have been passed on. That's geographic, or species-based Karma in action I guess.

As a witch, I want to fix things, to improve that situation into which I was born, for my own benefit and for the benefit of my friends, family, community, and outward all the way to beyond the limits of what I perceive to be within my influence, and also forward into time for those who come after me. To improve things, but not at the expense of others, because in doing so at someone else's expense then I simply add to their un-earned burden. My goal is not to shuffle the inequities of life from one person's plate to another, but to work toward overall improvement -- toward a structure or pattern that is beneficial and sustainable, not robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The enemy of magic is entropy. Just as the enemy of all energy is entropy. And though magic, like all energy, is amoral, people are not. Well, in general people are not, I'll leave psychopaths and sociopaths for another day, I guess.

It is up to each of us to develop a moral code we can live with. This applies to magic just as it applies to other aspects of life. Are there times when theft is moral? Yes. Are there times when charity is immoral? Yes. Extreme examples: After Katrina, was it immoral to loot grocery stores for food and clean water? In the aftermath of the December 2004 tsunami, was it immoral of religious charity workers to require victims to hear sermons or to convert on the spot in order to get aid?

Not everyone in New Orleans looted, and of COURSE not all religion-based aid to people affected by the tsunami came with such strings attached. But in both situations SOME people made choices that might seem bad or good to those observing from the outside.

So, are there times when coercive magic is moral? I think so, at least within my own moral code. Influence/coersion is as neutral as magic is. It's not the act of influencing someone. It's whether the influence attempted is against the interests of the person being influenced.

In situations that are inherently unfair or unbalanced, then coersion to influence toward fairness is justified, IMO. And in such situations, magic is one avenue among many to pursue.

[SammieAnn]

I personally don't aggree with the whole white magic/ black magic classification either. I tried the wiccan path when I was a teenager, but could'nt aggree with the rede or the three fold law. IMO the three fold law goes against nature. I have always been very interested in nature and how it regulates itsself.

magic in my oppinion is very similar to nature. magic is not good or evil anymore then the lion that hunts prey to feed its cubs or how a male lion will at times kill baby cubs that are not its cubs. we don't call the lions evil or good.

I don't really like to put any catagorys on magic in terms of black or white because whats considered black to one is not considered black to another. Also circumstances can be different for everyone, making "Black Magic" nesassary for survival.

[PoisonIvy]

IMHO,magick in neither black nor white,it is both because nature is both. It's what's in the heart of the person using magick that makes it good or bad._wiz_

[Penthesilea]

I agree that magical energy is just that -- energy without form or intent. It simply is.It is the intent of the user that determines whether the magical energy is helpful or harmful. To use black, negative or evil to describe certain kinds of magic is, I think, imprecise. I use the term "malevolent" to describe coercive magic intended to harm the innocent since that is usually an accurate description of the caster's mindset.

Magical ethics aren't that much different from mundane ethics. The rule I use is a simple one. If I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of an action, I think hard about executing it. One the other hand, if I or someone I love is under attack, I'll do what I have to and let the karmic cow chips fall where they may! Whenever possible, I use mundane means first then the magical. Passive action first, always, followed by active/projective action designed to distract and/or redirect an attacker. Only as a last resort would I use a direct "ultimate smackdown" method. In this way I use only the appropriate amount of force.

[Wyrdsister]

Wow, I really don't know if I can add anything to what's already been said. :whatgives

It makes complete sense to me that magic, like electricity (great analogy, Elise!), is neither good nor bad, and that is is all in the intent and power of the wielder that puts it to either good or bad use. _wiz_ I also think that protective magic is not inherently unethical and that we do have the right to protect those we love and care about.

If I come up with anything that hasn't been said already, I'll post it here. I just hate being redundant. ;)

Great discussion, all!

Wyrdsister

[~Elise~]

Yes, this has been a great discussion...I'd like to see it continue through the weekend, at least. Sunday or Monday I'll put the next lesson.

Elise

[amakaliani]

I keep wanting to add thoughts to my previous point. However the more I read everyone else's post the more i agree and the more I realize that I have chosen the "darker" path, but, yet that I am not evil nor do I do anything to harm anyone else - until it affects my family.

It has led to many occasions of soul searching in my path, and I must say that it has be enlightening.

[purple dragon]

i beleive there is a counterbalance to everything, black and white, day and night. i got this off a espisode of charmed: if you are slefish and always doing things for yourself and not for others, then you will never have the satisfaction of doing something good. if you put others before yourself then you will never feel the satisfaction of doing something you want. if that selfish person did one completely selfless act, then that one little act could make them see a whole new aspect on life, and visa versa. i also beleive that nothing can be completely evil, or good no matter what they do, there will always be a shread of darkness or light.

[piperwyatt]

I think that it all comes down to understanding the yin and the yang, for lack of better terms on my half. The greatest good intentions do have a spot of negative in them, and vice versa. Do you understand my meaning?

[stari_hrast]

Being rather new to this I've read with great interest the posts here leaving me with a summed up idea that the energy of magic/k is neutral and that it is the intention that makes it good or bad and that truly it's our inner personal ethics that make us decide to what purpose to use it.
Now this class is about magical self defense: does that mean we can also harm someone who's harmed us sending the negative energy back or it can also come from other sources? I've been wondering if when casting the spell we are actually "robbing" someone out there in the Universe of something he/she was supposed to get? So, in the end, is it negative to start with? Maybe some stupid reasonings, sorry, but being new and trying to learn I think the best way is to ask out and hopefully get the answer in one way or another :-) Blessings on your path everyone x

[MariThorn]

You have reached some really good conclusions. I've read that, especially with storm magic, that you are actually taking weather from one spot and moving it about. Nothing happens without a cause and effect. An example is last July 4th I was visiting my parents in KS. We went to watch the fireworks, but I could see the rain clouds gathering in the West. I set up a temporary barrier and diverted the clouds and storm until the show was over. I made sure the result did not involve violent storms when I made the spell, but the next day I read aboout how it was such a freak storm as it was not forecasted. By creating the temporary vacuum the clouds refileed so quickly that they made a really big storm. No one was hurt, but places that should have had rain missed it, and places that shouldn't have had rain got some for an hour. Just an example. :)

I try to send negative stuff into inanimate objects that will wear away the energy gradually. I don't send it back on people . . . I've found that blessing those who harm makes more of an impact on their lives than blighting. However, I will reflect things with wards and so forth. If you catch it because of that it was your own fault for being bad to start. :D

Marithorn

[~Elise~]

Being rather new to this I've read with great interest the posts here leaving me with a summed up idea that the energy of magic/k is neutral and that it is the intention that makes it good or bad and that truly it's our inner personal ethics that make us decide to what purpose to use it.
Now this class is about magical self defense: does that mean we can also harm someone who's harmed us sending the negative energy back or it can also come from other sources? I've been wondering if when casting the spell we are actually "robbing" someone out there in the Universe of something he/she was supposed to get? So, in the end, is it negative to start with? Maybe some stupid reasonings, sorry, but being new and trying to learn I think the best way is to ask out and hopefully get the answer in one way or another :-) Blessings on your path everyone x

NO--you are not robbing anyone out there of something they were supposed to get. The Universe does NOT have a finite amount of abundance. It is in infinite supply, we just have to ask for it and most importantly, accept it.

Yes, you can send negative energy back to the person it came from. You can also send it from other sources, as well.

Does that help?

Elise

[LadyCelt]

I think magic is neutral but how you use it is good or bad. Something used for good can cause bad though too.

[lilyavalon]

The way I see it is, that it realy depends on why you are doing something. If you are choosing a spell to be greedy... then your going to have to sacrafice something. If you are doing a spell to help someone in an hour of need, or protect them then you will have to sacrafice nothing. (that is if the spell goes right - but that could be your karma kicking in from a previous spell....)

maybe im mental.

[amakaliani]

The way I see it is, that it realy depends on why you are doing something. If you are choosing a spell to be greedy... then your going to have to sacrafice something. If you are doing a spell to help someone in an hour of need, or protect them then you will have to sacrafice nothing. (that is if the spell goes right - but that could be your karma kicking in from a previous spell....)

maybe im mental.

I happen to agree completely with your thought.

[LyraDragonStar]

Ok, I know this is very random, but I have to say that I'm sorry if I get a little behind. I'm juggling 4 classes here on MW, my regular schooll, and everything inbetween. :)

[StarCraftLia]

.

[~Elise~]

It is THE source that create and destroys. And it is the same thing, if you stop and think about it. For something new to be created, something is destroyed.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[amakaliani]

Hmmmm, a very true thought........

[Rin Daemoko]

It is THE source that create and destroys. And it is the same thing, if you stop and think about it. For something new to be created, something is destroyed.

JMO and YMMV

Elise
*nod*

It is the thinking mind that creates the illusion that "creation" and "destruction" are two different things. The thinking mind that likes to disect and analyze everything. Even in pregnancy and birth, there is life and there is destruction. Better than this disparity is the idea of "change." In my opinion.

[~Elise~]

Lesson 3 is up!

Great work on this guys!!!!

Elise

[alex_chosen77]

Light and dark magic are both neutral, they can only be good or bad depending on the caster and his objectives. Light magic is more defensive and relies on help from above in battle, its energy sources are air fire and life. Dark magic is more down to earth, it relies on the help you can give yourself and on your own powers and special skills. It's sources are water earth and shadows. Light and dark magic can be used by anyone. Demons however, besides their elemental magic, can also do evil magic, with its power sources: death and fire.

[Meriwen]

It is THE source that create and destroys. And it is the same thing, if you stop and think about it. For something new to be created, something is destroyed.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

After reading all the posts, trying to think of something new to add is not working very well. Yes I agree that magic is energy, and neither good nor bad in itself. Nature is like that. She can feed and give life or destroy but that is her nature, no pun intended. That is the way I feel about magic, good or bad has nothing to do with my decision, it is rather if I should use magic in a sititution. If the need for magic is to heal, then I will use magic for healing, but if the need for magic is to protect or destroy then I will use it as such. The only thing I really try not to do is to fly off the broom handle and unlease magic because I am angry and just want to strike out against the person who is hurting me or causing me to react in anger. Anger and hurt are feelings we allow ourselves, they don't hurt any less than a cut, but they must be dealt with on a mundane level first.

[zede]

well said pearls59

[AineDanu]

I have been unable to access a computer until now so I am catching up on homework. Sorry for the delay.

Black Magic/White Magic. I agree that there is no such thing as good or bad, black or white, because everything comes from the same universal energy. I believe that whatever your INTENT is decides whether it is harmful or helpful and that the person is the one responsible for what happens not the energy itself. So, why do we blame the energy by giving it titles of good/bad, black/white or anything? I think that as long as you take care with your wording and as long as you have a good intention in your heart then the energy will do what it can to help you in the most positive way possible but if you have the desire to manipulate or cause harm to others then you may get your short-term desire but will have a lifetime of bad karma to work off.

[LadyCelt]

http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=16888

I found this on psychic vampires and it gives people techniques and pointers, so I figured I"d share to help people out with what to be careful for.

[Syn]

Magic is magic it swings both ways, it all depends on which intent you use it for. "Good", or "Bad", I once read in a book if you use magic for the good of kind you will recieve from the good, if you intend to use for the bad of kind you will recieve from the bad of kind. Everything comes back eventually.