Other deities besides God?

[Cyzarine]

Does anyone honor other deities besides God? Maybe from another pantheon or even from the Christian pantheon? Do you feel it is wrong or that God feels it is wrong?

Most of those I honor are all from within the Byzantine Catholic faith but they are my chosen deities. I do not feel guilty about it. I have plenty of statues of Egyptian gods and goddesses in my house. I still honor Anubis. I was once a Kemetic and even though I have since changed spiritualy my connection with Anubis does not.

I do not believe that it should matter. I see it this way...as long as I know who God is and what God has done for me I can be free to communicate with other deities. I am polythestic when it come to this...so bare with me. If it was wrong to communicate and honor other deities would you not know about Gods feelings on a much larger scale then guilt. I do not believe God is as vengeful as most make it out to be. We are surrounded by man-made dogma and beliefs and we must spiritually find our way to the divine.

[LostSheep]

I've been thinking about this lately ... I think that, while I recognize and try to follow the teachings of Jesus, I tend to believe in the God and Goddess who are everywhere, in all things, rather than God in the Christian sense as an individual. Whether it's possible to be Christian but not believe in the biblical God I've no idea; but who said that life had to be simple?

[Cyzarine]

Life is far from simple and spirituality is even farther from simple...but everyone has their veiws and no one is right or wrong...just perception. You have a good point though. I do believe you can be Christian and believe in Mary or Christ or Joseph, etc. I don't know about not believeing in God. Yet, a Christian is one who believes in Christ...so it could be you believe in Christ but not God. It get's complicated but spiritualy it has to feel right to you.

[Christo Pagan]

I don't believe in the monotheistic God of the Bible, but instead my belief is that God is made up of an innumerable amount of divine personages or emanations, each representing a different personality of the creator. It's these personages that I believe many have assigned as different gods throughout ancient history. Therefore, me personally, I see the worship of other gods both inside and outside the Christian pantheon as being perfectly acceptable (though I myself have chosen my God & Goddess from within the Gnostic Christian cosmology).

[Cyzarine]

I don't believe in the monotheistic God of the Bible, but instead my belief is that God is made up of an innumerable amount of divine personages or emanations, each representing a different personality of the creator. It's these personages that I believe many have assigned as different gods throughout ancient history. Therefore, me personally, I see the worship of other gods within and within the Christian pantheon as being perfectly acceptable (though I myself have chosen my God & Goddess from within the Gnostic Christian cosmology).

You make a good point. I agree with you about not seeing anything wrong.

[Cyzarine]

What deities do you honor...besides God?

For me it is God first...the creator who created physical...the earth, the animals, humans, etc. Then Holy Spirit...female part of God (being that God is genderless or both gender, however you look at it) who is within all. Then comes Christ and Mary the Virgin. Other deities that I acknowledge are Mary Magalen, Joseph, John the Babtist. I honor Anubis because I feel a connection to this god. Why I do not know. I know Anubis has reached out and guided me several times and I honor him just not as much as my pantheon.

[Christo Pagan]

What deities do you honor...besides God?


I hold a panentheistic view of God, and that is that God is both within and without his/her creation. In that regards, I am a Deist. However, I honor both Christ and Sophia as my God and Goddess symbolically.

For me Christ, the masculine side of Deity, represents Knowledge, for according to Gnostic myths it was Christ that came to Adam and Eve in the guise of the serpent (and not Satan) and imparted knowledge unto them, thus helping them discover their divine nature. In the Gnostic gospels, Christ was also seen as a liberator whose purpose on earth was to reveal to mankind their inner light through gnosis.

On the flip side, I see Sophia as the feminine side of Deity, who represents wisdom. She is the "divine spark" within us that is revealed when paired with Christ (the bridegroom), and together they bring about gnosis.

I also believe in another, lesser deity - the demiurge, which I see as being the "ego" that we must all overcome in order to find God. The demiurge demands worship and blinds us from seeing our true divine heritage. By finding gnosis (through Christ and Sophia), I believe we can ascend above the demiurge and trully know God.

[CleftOfLight]

I have guardian spirits that are always with me that are none christain.But I respect them I do not worship them,I worship God and God a lone.I dont even do any prayers with the trinity because I believe it is taking away from God.

[Silver Ivy]

I've been thinking about this lately ... I think that, while I recognize and try to follow the teachings of Jesus, I tend to believe in the God and Goddess who are everywhere, in all things, rather than God in the Christian sense as an individual. Whether it's possible to be Christian but not believe in the biblical God I've no idea; but who said that life had to be simple?

I believe in much the same as this ... at times it is hard for me to wrap my head around ... but I think that this is the simplest way of describing it.

[Meryln2k]

Hi agian, Cyzarine,

I also worship work with the -Green Man and Lord Herne, sometimes the Orthodox Saint John.

As far as Goddesses go, it's Mary, Isis and the Triple Goddes--Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Oh yeah and I lve St. Joan, too.

[ViolinGoddess]

Does anyone honor other deities besides God? Maybe from another pantheon or even from the Christian pantheon? Do you feel it is wrong or that God feels it is wrong?

I love your icon! WHere did you get it? Can I use it?

Violin Goddess

[MariThorn]

I believe that God is Truth and that Truth has and still does reveal itself to mankind (insert your own pc beginning there) as civilization can comprehend it. Names are descriptions and words, when I call on Nuada it is the Gatherer of Clouds I seek help from. Do I believe that there is a Irish Celtic man with a silver hand that is coming spiritually to help me? No, not really I believe that the power of Truth embodied in the concept of a cloud gatherer is coming to help me. Same goes for any other deity. I truly believe they are all one in the same. The catechism even states that God is a Mystery and that we will never fully comprehend it. That God is Father and Mother in one. I don't think it really matters which form you worship.

Just my two cents :)

[miller junior]

Can a person be an atheist and still practice magick?

-mj,
curious

[Lady Valkyrie]

For me it's the Holy Trinity... Father God, Mother Goddess (the Holy Spirit), and their son Jesus. I do acknowledge the Angels, The Virgin Mary, Sophia, & Mary Magdelene. But my main focus is the Trinity.

[Lady Valkyrie]

Can a person be an atheist and still practice magick?

-mj,
curious

I believe so... the practice of magick is not a religion in my opinion and it doesn't require a diety to practice. Therefore it would be safe to say that yes even an athiest can indeed practice magick.

[JadeEmerald]

I agree with many of you in saying that God can never be explained. He/She is a true mystery. The Holy Trinity (God, The Holy Spirit, and Jesus) are all forms/aspects of the Divine....therefore, I don't think it's wrong to honor other pantheons. They are all different forms of the Divine too...just specific ways to think of God in another way. I think I confused myself. LOL!

[LordHelmet]

I would say that God should not be revered in the same way you would a god. They are entirely different things. A god is a limited being, perhaps a face on a concept.

To often God is treated as a limited being. To me, God isn't something that has a name for instance, that would be a diety. But then again that's more of a Kabilistic view then a christian one. At any rate I don't see the problem observing various dietys as dietys and God. There can be only one God.

There's no reason an athiest couldn't practise magick. You don't have to aknowledge any God or Gods to affect the universe through any of the other laws of physics, why would it be different for those concerning magick?

[Lovehound]

Outside of God and Yeshuah and Mother Mary, I also worship the Norse Gods.

[Anita]

I'm a hard polytheist and see each god and goddess as distinct powers.

I follow Yahweh, the father, the son and the holy spirit. I also follow Bast and Het-Heret (Hathor).

In Exodus 15, Yahweh's answer to Moses asking his name is usually translated as I am who I am. But the Hebrew, Elyeh Asher Elyeh, can also mean "I will be what I will be". I see the second translation as Yahweh saying I can have different relationships with different people. This is why he is ok with some people being polytheistic.

[LadyCelt]

Jesus said "Get behind me Satan! For it is written,'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"


For me, even though I'm drawn to other deities, this is a big part of what stops me. I know in the Old Testament, it says no gods before God. And, I also consider idolatry to be more aobut statues and worshipping an image. But, when I found this, it seems hard for me to communicate with other gods.

[Faol-chù]

For me, even though I'm drawn to other deities, this is a big part of what stops me. I know in the Old Testament, it says no gods before God. And, I also consider idolatry to be more aobut statues and worshipping an image. But, when I found this, it seems hard for me to communicate with other gods.

I guess all of this begs the question (again) what, exactly, is a "god"?

Do you have any deceased loved ones that you continue to honor?
If so, are they 'gods'?

Do you honor the wind, or a thunderstorm, or a mountain? Are they 'gods'?

Does the fact that you may not consider any of these, personally, to be 'gods' stop you from honoring them?

I sort of think this whole word 'god' became largely 'shorthand' for 'entity I honor'.

Do you really think that every entity referred to in history as a 'god' was 'worshipped' as opposed to 'venerated' and/or 'honored'?
Is there a difference in your mind?


Maybe it's all just 'semantics'....:)

Just a thought...

[LadyCelt]

^^^^^ Its very confusing. But, I"m saying for me, its part of what stops me.

[Kira Catgirl]

I have to say that it's a definite confidence booster to see that some Christians feel a connection to a non-Christian deity without having a 'crisis of faith', so to speak. Or irritating any beings involved.

I've been personally having a (very) slow spiritual awakening of sorts for the past few years, and have felt some qualms about the growing feeling of Christianity being 'right' possibly conflicting with my connection to Isis. I haven't gotten a feeling from either end that it would, other than my menal worries, so seeing that others seem to be perfectly fine with it is a big help.

I'm tempted to go into a longwinded description of my current views on God and gods and spiritual entities of all sorts, but I think that may be better suited elsewhere. So, I shall refrain for now.

[Bella Canolli]

I think that one needs to define what it means to worship, what it means to honor, what means to revere and what it means to simple pray to.

Love is a great thing, there is plenty to go around- to give and recieve. If your hearts is filled with love and joy towards a specific diety, how can love be wrong?

Just my 2 cents.

[SapphireMoon]

MM,
Hi, I have a couple of questions & I think they may fit here. This might have already been posted but being new & one of these questions is bugging me non stop I decided to post.

I was christian for 36 years & the past 3 years a witch but I cant seem to let go completely of my amazing experiences with Jesus & the christian God nor can I let go of my amazing experiences of being a witch, using other Gods too.

What is the Christian Witchcraft view on the Devil?

When I was christian I just could not believe in the devil. I had no personal experience to confirm his existance. I had personal experiences for demons/nasties but not the devil but I also did have personal experiences of Jesus & the Christian God. Now being a Witch I still cant seem to believe in the devil.

Next question how do you incorporate the other Gods & Goddesses into your life being you still hold a Christian view? I mean how do you let go of the guilt of doing wrong that you have been ("brainwashed")taught to believe?


SapphireMoon

[Lovehound]

Jesus said "Get behind me Satan! For it is written,'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"


For me, even though I'm drawn to other deities, this is a big part of what stops me. I know in the Old Testament, it says no gods before God. And, I also consider idolatry to be more aobut statues and worshipping an image. But, when I found this, it seems hard for me to communicate with other gods.


I think, from my readings of various Bible scholars such as John Dominic Crossan and Marcus J. Borg, that what this statement of Jesus is warning people about is serving "the world" or "empire" and "greed" - consider what kind of life Jesus was dealing with, what with Roman occupation of Judea and all the implications thereof.

I think that verse would give us pause to ask "what do I serve - do I serve money and my job and fashion and all these temporal things, or do I serve that which is etermal and edifying, things like compassion and truth and whatnot?"

Do we have the book, chapter and verse that came from? I think it needs to be read in a whole context, not just taken as an isolated verse on its own. That's called "proof-texting" and is generally understood among Bible scholars to be poor Bible scholarship. Proof-texting is taking one verse out of its context and using it to serve a specific (usually worldly) agenda. Evangelists and conservative Christians do this quite frequently; most people who grew up Roman Catholic (or any other form of Catholic, really, such as Greek and Russian Orthodox, Anglican, etc) would not engage in proof-texting.

Bible scholarship takes a lot of work and study and effort. I recommend the works of:

John Dear
M. Basil Pennington
Marcus J. Borg
John Dominic Crossan

I even would say it's a very good idea to get a copy of the Catholic Catechism and go through it very carefully. I have found that it enhances and deepens one's overall spiritual experience, be it Christian or pagan.

[Lovehound]

I guess all of this begs the question (again) what, exactly, is a "god"?

Do you have any deceased loved ones that you continue to honor?
If so, are they 'gods'?

Do you honor the wind, or a thunderstorm, or a mountain? Are they 'gods'?

Does the fact that you may not consider any of these, personally, to be 'gods' stop you from honoring them?

I sort of think this whole word 'god' became largely 'shorthand' for 'entity I honor'.

Do you really think that every entity referred to in history as a 'god' was 'worshipped' as opposed to 'venerated' and/or 'honored'?
Is there a difference in your mind?


Maybe it's all just 'semantics'....:)

Just a thought...

Did not Jesu himself say, in quoting a passage of scripture, "It is not written, 'Ye are gods?'"

He sure did. John 10: 34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=34&version=31&context=verse)

Puts a whole new twist on things, does it not?

[latin_baller]

Does anyone honor other deities besides God? Maybe from another pantheon or even from the Christian pantheon? Do you feel it is wrong or that God feels it is wrong?

Most of those I honor are all from within the Byzantine Catholic faith but they are my chosen deities. I do not feel guilty about it. I have plenty of statues of Egyptian gods and goddesses in my house. I still honor Anubis. I was once a Kemetic and even though I have since changed spiritualy my connection with Anubis does not.

I do not believe that it should matter. I see it this way...as long as I know who God is and what God has done for me I can be free to communicate with other deities. I am polythestic when it come to this...so bare with me. If it was wrong to communicate and honor other deities would you not know about Gods feelings on a much larger scale then guilt. I do not believe God is as vengeful as most make it out to be. We are surrounded by man-made dogma and beliefs and we must spiritually find our way to the divine.

When i say god i always mean Amun.

[Silverwing]

This hasn't been replied to in a while, but I felt like adding in my thoughts...

Personally, I view the Pagan triple goddess (Maiden, Mother, and Crone) as the female half of the Christian Holy Trinity, and address God in both male and female terms depending on the situation. I acknowledge the existance of the older pagan gods and goddesses, but I do not *worship* them...I look on them as spirits subordinate to the Trinity, similiar to angels (if that makes any sense). I pray to some occasionally for small things, but I always try to focus on the Trinity and Christ as the center of my worship. I also am panenthistic and believe that a spark of the Divine is in all of creation. Having been raised Catholic, I have found that interacting with other deities in much the same way as Catholic saints helps me reconcile my two faith systems, but that's just me.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I honor Sekhmet as the destructive force of God and Horus as the Egyptian version of Christ. Both deities bring light into the world.

[Lucien]

Does anyone honor other deities besides God? Maybe from another pantheon or even from the Christian pantheon? Do you feel it is wrong or that God feels it is wrong?

Most of those I honor are all from within the Byzantine Catholic faith but they are my chosen deities. I do not feel guilty about it. I have plenty of statues of Egyptian gods and goddesses in my house. I still honor Anubis. I was once a Kemetic and even though I have since changed spiritualy my connection with Anubis does not.

I do not believe that it should matter. I see it this way...as long as I know who God is and what God has done for me I can be free to communicate with other deities. I am polythestic when it come to this...so bare with me. If it was wrong to communicate and honor other deities would you not know about Gods feelings on a much larger scale then guilt. I do not believe God is as vengeful as most make it out to be. We are surrounded by man-made dogma and beliefs and we must spiritually find our way to the divine.

This is the way i see it. IMO "God" is a personification of the divine energy that fills all with life. And since "God" is a personification that means Anubis (my patron deity as well) Lugh, Loki, Venus, Aphroditie...are all personifications as well. The divine will connect with us in the way they see as effective. Theres a lot that goes into my thesis about this but thats the basics. and when you really study different faith systems every single one draws on the same parallels. Take jesus for example, isn't his teachings the same exact ones us pagans are called to live by? And the imaculate conception? Does Cúchulainn ring a bell? Hercules? Same type of story However the main diffrence lies in that Christ wasnt ment to be a warrior hero but a savior. All religions are linked it's kind of like Dinosaur bones. The creature dies then is covered and covered by cities and roads...each layer builds on another. IMO monotheistic religions just tried to simplify everything...even though none of the Abrahamic Gods are alike so they refuse to recognize thier own polytheism or accept that the lay orgin in the same pantheon but no they'd rather play "who's more right" and kill each other and us in the process...

[Bix]

The Bible mentions other gods and goddesses (often in a negative light, though). I really don't think I've experienced other gods and goddesses but I'm not sure I'd just totally say they don't exist.

[Greenwolf]

I grew up Christian and spent my late teenage early twenties as a fundie, It wasn't till I was about 30 that I started saying "this just isn't right and it is so not working for me!"

I started fresh with Gaia and the Creator God with no name. I figured if he created the Earth and the universe and all of that any name I put to him was just my convenience.

I researched and have never stopped researching I started going Christo-pagan but I have had a few unexpected bends in the river lately. So who and what and why so far the Earth and the Ultimate Creator and anyone else is just and aspect of the masculine or femine divine.

But for all of you who feel the guilt and polar duality of Christo-paganism... here's a link that might help.

http://www.entheology.org/POCM/index.htm

I just found this the other day and it was fascinating to say the least!

Greenwolf

[EponaCapaill]

This is the way i see it. IMO "God" is a personification of the divine energy that fills all with life. And since "God" is a personification that means Anubis (my patron deity as well) Lugh, Loki, Venus, Aphroditie...are all personifications as well. The divine will connect with us in the way they see as effective. Theres a lot that goes into my thesis about this but thats the basics. and when you really study different faith systems every single one draws on the same parallels. Take jesus for example, isn't his teachings the same exact ones us pagans are called to live by? And the imaculate conception? Does Cúchulainn ring a bell? Hercules? Same type of story However the main diffrence lies in that Christ wasnt ment to be a warrior hero but a savior. All religions are linked it's kind of like Dinosaur bones. The creature dies then is covered and covered by cities and roads...each layer builds on another. IMO monotheistic religions just tried to simplify everything...even though none of the Abrahamic Gods are alike so they refuse to recognize thier own polytheism or accept that the lay orgin in the same
pantheon but no they'd rather play "who's more right" and kill each other and
us in the process...


I started fresh with Gaia and the Creator God with no name. I figured if he created the Earth and the universe and all of that any name I put to him was just my convenience.

I could not agree more with these statements, well said!

[sparrowspirit]

I often find myself very conflicted. I post around here and there but nothing ever clicks for me. I grew up Pentecostal Christian in a mix of Spanish/English churches throughout my years until at 16 I felt empty and believed in nothing. I was a hollow shell of a person. The only thing that kept me and still keeps me at peace is my music and the ability to hear music anywhere I go.

Christian music artists such as Jennifer Knapp or BarlowGirl were a big part of my life until I reached my teens... and those two bands always bring me back to peace. As I got older I found it harder to believe in the Church and whatever the sermon was that Sunday. I put my bible aside and started researching fully into Witchcraft, and even now 4 almost 5 year later I still call myself a witch, but often feel that longing to go back to where I was... happy and at peace knowing that "god" loves me.

I can't bring myself to go back to church because I feel slightly guilty. My "church" is the Earth. It's here I feel safe, and calm. It's touching a tree to recenter myself, or watching the birds fly above me in the sky.

I feel that if I were to go back and read the Bible, I'd find that connection somewhere, but I never know where to start.

I know I am connected deeply to my psychic ability, energy, the elements, nature, the change of seasons, the cycle of the sun and moon, animals, dragons and the Fae.

I worship no gods or goddesses although I always feel like someone is watching over me. I don't really believe in angels, but I believe in demons as the obstacles and fears we struggle to overcome. While I don't believe in the concept of sin as something you need to atone for, I feel it is just you trying to let go of your ego in order to better your divine self.

I often feel like I should have *some* sort of connection to deity, but since leaving Christianity behind, I don't. I briefly had a connection to the Goddess as I was a Dianic Witch, but I realized that was just nature...and I know she embodies all of nature. I have a really good connection with spirits, and the Fae. I also see ghosts and spirits of the land. I believe that each tree, plant, rock, and animal has a spirit, I also believe that the Faerie folk, help those plants and trees to grow.

I just feel sort of aimless. I have ALL kinds of books on Witchcraft, Energy Work, and Faeries, but nothing makes sense anymore.

I so didn't mean to hijack this thread...stream of consciousness... I'll go now.

thanks for listening.

[Tobias]

...but often feel that longing to go back to where I was... happy and at peace knowing that "god" loves me.


Was that a true spiritual state, or simply blissful ignorance?


I often wrestle with a relationship with God, vs a relationship with nature and the spirit world much as you described. Not that there is much to wrestle over. God is there when I need Him. I put on Christian music, watch Charismatic preachers on God TV. Sometimes even a heavily anointed deliverance prayer on youtube with Benny Hinn.

Relationship with God does not shut off the other stuff. Christians would throw a conniption fit if they knew, but other than that God seems to be fine with it. It's all just a part of the universe, and He seems to be comfortable being my Lord through all of it. Some things seem to be more spiritually profitable than others. I try to pursue what works.

[sparrowspirit]

It was a mixture of both. I was very much happy, and even now every time i put on christian music I feel relax and better. at the same time, every time I take a walk through the woods or down the street I feel that same emotion.

It's more a question of where does one begin?

[Tobias]

It was a mixture of both. I was very much happy, and even now every time i put on christian music I feel relax and better. at the same time, every time I take a walk through the woods or down the street I feel that same emotion.

It's more a question of where does one begin?


Where does one begin... what? It sounds like you are already well on your way! Which is why I suggested that you just do what works. If listening to Christian music works to bring you into that place of peace, then do that. If you think you want or need more, you can always try reading your Bible or going to church. See if that produces the desired results.

The thing to look out for in Christianity, is how many would have you give up your spirituality for an empty system of do's and don'ts. But Christian spirituality is a wonderful thing! Especially if you can just enjoy it without anyone looking over your shoulder telling you all the things you must do to perform.

So far, I haven't noticed any conflict between enjoying both pagan and Christian spirituality. I keep holding my breath, wondering when the day will come when I'm given an ultimatum that I must give up one for the other, but nothing of the sort has happened yet!

[sparrowspirit]

well music in general is my vice to feel better, I just like how christian music feels uplifting.

I've been re-reading "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk.

I don't currently own a bible.....

[Amata]

What I personally believe, and I think many other pagans here do (as they have offered me similar advice) is that there is but one Divine. Whether you choose to call him or her God, Athena, Anubis, or Freya is up to you, and by forming a relationship with the Divine via prayer and ritual, I believe that the Divine will call on you and help you find out how you should worship. God(dess) has a plan for each of us, spiritually.

At this point in time I am worshipping God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost Sophia, as well as devotion to Mary the Blessed Mother, Mary Magdalene, and the angels. Remember that Divine inspiration can come to anyone, anytime and anywhere. All you must do is open your heart and answers will come.

[U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya]

I Cant really give a detailed statement about What "God" is,Because I never had a relationship with "God". For a fews years i went to church with my friend and her family,But there was never a connection there.I think the reason i never really developed any kind of connection with "God" was because i dont belive he/she is what most people belive.I belive that The Religion that Worships "God" Has become corrupt,unstable,and unhealthy,Thus The image of "God" has been twisted with the religion that worships him/her.I dont say this because i dont belive in "God",I say this because as an outsider this is how i see things.And Christianity is not the only religion its happened to.But I see so many Followers of "God" who are quick to judge others,Then claim to be faithful to their beliefs,Yet is it not their own Bible that says:"(Mat 7:1 Judge not lest ye be judged.)".

I'm not picking on anbody or anything like that,I'm just saying that I feel that "God's" image has been,Modifyied.Too many times I have seen Churches take money from the gov. that they dont need and claim its for a good cause,yet there's a school down the street that needs to have new plumbing or windows or heaters put in,Or they need to replace the playground because its a saftey hazzard,but they cant because they cant get the money to do it.

Anyways,Thats just my two cents,Sorry if i offended anbody,I really didnt mean to.

[perceval23]

well music in general is my vice to feel better, I just like how christian music feels uplifting.

I've been re-reading "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk.

I don't currently own a bible.....

Some things can be communicated better through music, or poetry, or prose, or dance, than with simple words. Music is one of the most important forms of spiritual communication.

It's also worth noting that The Chronicles of Narnia is on Starhawk's recommended reading list.

The edition of the Bible I'd recommend is the Methodist edition. It's very annotated. I'd also recommend giving the Gnostic Gospels a look.

Do you like Loreena McKennitt? I see her as the gold standard for Celtic Christian music. She really takes you to Avalon, I think, though she does it with an echo of the Middle East. Perfect for Celtic Christianity, I think, given it's dual Celtic and Middle Eastern roots.

The Mummers' Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B7sH5QLyXY

The Mystic's Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt2r2rUHc7Q

Night Ride Across the Caucasus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz6EFiXbcT8

And some songs specific to the current season...

Good King Wenceslas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41rmb_dhqmM

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2SR_P-_98s

The Holly and the Ivy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FvE-z8xV1g

Noel Nouvelet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F0XBZdOy8Y

The Seven Rejoices of Mary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx2Mc5K9VO0

[Æon Flux]

Isn't part of the whole premise of Christianity that Jesus is the only son of the ONE TRUE God?
Just "believing" in Jesus wouldn't cut it at all. Both Muslims and Jews recognize Jesus as a prophet, just not the Messiah, right?
So in such a case, if the one true God is not your one true God and Jesus Christ is not your only way to salvation, you wouldn't actually be a Christian at all?

I mean, do what you want, but I still think it sounds pretty off.
If you don't believe in the Christian god, and you don't believe Jesus was his only son, but merely... what? A prophet? A teacher? A cool guy?
If that's what you believe that doesn't make you a Christian.

It's like saying you're a Wiccan when you don't believe in the Lord and the Lady, or follow the teachings of the religion... or even adhere to the "threefold rule". But you do believe Gardner was pretty cool. (Maybe not exactly, but close enough)

Having more gods and goddesses you "communicate and work" with is in complete violation to the first commandment. Most people are probably in constant violation of the first four commandments.

It's just off. If you don't even believe in the basic premises of a religion, why use that religion to describe yourself?
I'm honestly curious. You can work with whatever "pantheons" you want, but if you don't call yourself a Christian, Hindu, Greek, Roman, Norse, Buddhist, Jew, worshiper of the Egyptian pantheon just because you occasionally work with figures and deities from all the mentioned mythologies... why would you do so with Christianity?

[Twinkle]

Isn't part of the whole premise of Christianity that Jesus is the only son of the ONE TRUE God?
Just "believing" in Jesus wouldn't cut it at all. Both Muslims and Jews recognize Jesus as a prophet, just not the Messiah, right?
So in such a case, if the one true God is not your one true God and Jesus Christ is not your only way to salvation, you wouldn't actually be a Christian at all?

I mean, do what you want, but I still think it sounds pretty off.
If you don't believe in the Christian god, and you don't believe Jesus was his only son, but merely... what? A prophet? A teacher? A cool guy?
If that's what you believe that doesn't make you a Christian.

It's like saying you're a Wiccan when you don't believe in the Lord and the Lady, or follow the teachings of the religion... or even adhere to the "threefold rule". But you do believe Gardner was pretty cool. (Maybe not exactly, but close enough)

Having more gods and goddesses you "communicate and work" with is in complete violation to the first commandment. Most people are probably in constant violation of the first four commandments.

It's just off. If you don't even believe in the basic premises of a religion, why use that religion to describe yourself?
I'm honestly curious. You can work with whatever "pantheons" you want, but if you don't call yourself a Christian, Hindu, Greek, Roman, Norse, Buddhist, Jew, worshiper of the Egyptian pantheon just because you occasionally work with figures and deities from all the mentioned mythologies... why would you do so with Christianity?


This.

The thing that ties all of Christianity together (regardless of denomination) is the belief that Christ is the Savior. Christianity is an orthodoxy - which means that to be a part of it one must adhere to "correct belief".

If one doesn't view Christ as the Messiah - then they are not Christian.

[EponaCapaill]

Isn't part of the whole premise of Christianity that Jesus is the only son of the ONE TRUE God?
Just "believing" in Jesus wouldn't cut it at all. Both Muslims and Jews recognize Jesus as a prophet, just not the Messiah, right?
So in such a case, if the one true God is not your one true God and Jesus Christ is not your only way to salvation, you wouldn't actually be a Christian at all?

I mean, do what you want, but I still think it sounds pretty off.
If you don't believe in the Christian god, and you don't believe Jesus was his only son, but merely... what? A prophet? A teacher? A cool guy?
If that's what you believe that doesn't make you a Christian.

It's like saying you're a Wiccan when you don't believe in the Lord and the Lady, or follow the teachings of the religion... or even adhere to the "threefold rule". But you do believe Gardner was pretty cool. (Maybe not exactly, but close enough)

Having more gods and goddesses you "communicate and work" with is in complete violation to the first commandment. Most people are probably in constant violation of the first four commandments.

It's just off. If you don't even believe in the basic premises of a religion, why use that religion to describe yourself?
I'm honestly curious. You can work with whatever "pantheons" you want, but if you don't call yourself a Christian, Hindu, Greek, Roman, Norse, Buddhist, Jew, worshiper of the Egyptian pantheon just because you occasionally work with figures and deities from all the mentioned mythologies... why would you do so with Christianity?


This.

The thing that ties all of Christianity together (regardless of denomination) is the belief that Christ is the Savior. Christianity is an orthodoxy - which means that to be a part of it one must adhere to "correct belief".

If one doesn't view Christ as the Messiah - then they are not Christian.

I agree with both of you. These are some of the reasons I no longer call myself Christian, or anything for that matter.

The thing is, I don't think we really know what Jesus' original message was, at least not in it's entirety. The books of the bible have been translated and manipulated in such a way as to push people in the direction that the early church wanted people to go. To control them. The books that were not included in the bible tell a somewhat different story. They weren't included in the bible because they didn't support the story that the early church wanted to tell. Look at the Gospel of Thomas. It is a collection of quotes attibuted to Jesus. In some ways it is similar to the the 4 Gospels in the Bible, but in some ways it is very different.


from Wikipedia
The teaching of salvation (i.e., entering the Kingdom of Heaven) that is found in The Gospel of Thomas is neither that of "works" nor of "grace" as the dichotomy is found in the canonical gospels, but what might be called a third way, that of insight. The overriding concern of The Gospel of Thomas is to find the light within in order to be a light unto the world.

Perhaps the early church steered early Christians away from this because it would be more difficult for the early church to control people.

What I am getting at is that yes, combining Paganism (in any of its incarnations) with Christianity is at odds with the church, early and modern, but I think that the true meaning of Christianity has been lost. I think that the true way of Christianity is more like a Pagan religion than modern Christians would like to think. I think that some Christians feel that, making other dieties a draw for them.

Personally I believe that there is one divine being or force in the universe. All gods and goddesses are aspects of that divine force. Good/bad, peace/chaos, happiness/anger, love/hate etc are all part of us as humans. They are all also part of the the Divine, each god or goddess is an expression of an aspect or similar aspects of the Divine. Since I don't believe that Christianity is the only way, I no longer identify as a Christian. I do however still hold some Christian values. Which, might I add, are really universal values.

I don't know if any of that made sense to anyone but me, I feel like I am rambling a little.

[Æon Flux]

The thing is, I don't think we really know what Jesus' original message was, at least not in it's entirety. The books of the bible have been translated and manipulated in such a way as to push people in the direction that the early church wanted people to go. To control them. The books that were not included in the bible tell a somewhat different story. They weren't included in the bible because they didn't support the story that the early church wanted to tell. Look at the Gospel of Thomas. It is a collection of quotes attibuted to Jesus. In some ways it is similar to the the 4 Gospels in the Bible, but in some ways it is very different.

Perhaps the early church steered early Christians away from this because it would be more difficult for the early church to control people.

What I am getting at is that yes, combining Paganism (in any of its incarnations) with Christianity is at odds with the church, early and modern, but I think that the true meaning of Christianity has been lost. I think that the true way of Christianity is more like a Pagan religion than modern Christians would like to think. I think that some Christians feel that, making other dieties a draw for them.

Personally I believe that there is one divine being or force in the universe. All gods and goddesses are aspects of that divine force. Good/bad, peace/chaos, happiness/anger, love/hate etc are all part of us as humans. They are all also part of the the Divine, each god or goddess is an expression of an aspect or similar aspects of the Divine. Since I don't believe that Christianity is the only way, I no longer identify as a Christian. I do however still hold some Christian values. Which, might I add, are really universal values.

I don't know if any of that made sense to anyone but me, I feel like I am rambling a little.

1. Nothing was written down about Jesus until a couple of centuries after his supposed death. And any and all "original" documents we have today are at least a copy of a copy of a copy. (Meaning that at least three previous people have had their hands in there, meddling)

2. Jesus is not a historical figure. There are nothing written down about him from the time of his supposed life, and subsequent teachings. And the Romans liked to keep records. It's highly unlikely that he actually existed.

3. The "true way" of Christianity, if there was such a thing, would more likely have been an adaptation of the Jewish faith, seeing as how Jesus was a Jew, more so than any of the "Pagan" faiths.

Just... putting an additional 2 cents into the thread.

[perceval23]

It's not as though the accounts of Jesus's life weren't written until centuries later. 15 years isn't that long, by standards of the time. Do you really think that many people who were tortured and killed for saying they were taught by Jesus and, in some cases, witnessed the Resurrection would have endured all that for something they knew to be a lie?

You can argue that accounts of Jesus's life were made into Myth, sure, but to deny the man existed makes no sense.

As for other deities, it didn't bother the Celts, who kept the Fae. To them, Christ wasn't there to replace the old religion, but fulfill it. Of course, the Celtic view of gods wasn't how we tend to think of them, the Greco-Roman way. The Celts forceably took Ireland from the Tuatha De Danann and drove them into the Fairylands, after all.

The Tuatha De Danann...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeDeOrdRaNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBdHzA4zp5A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmA2VcUOX4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKfLlTmwjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lIRUrjLE_Y

The Tuatha De Danann would bring with them the Four Treasures, which we now know as the four suits of the Tarot.

The ancient Celtic culture, it's devotion to Nature, the role of women, and how this shaped the Celtic Church, including an interesting comment of St. Augustine's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWEIZlwyzno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9D9ci7MnHk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNA36a_t7EY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISv4zjN0xss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WruuG6vJPg8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7M8gJrfZUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSNX0_hCuWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYK6J9OXZ4k

When the Roman Empire withdrew from Britain, the Celtic Church expanded to it. It eventually lost out to the Roman Catholic Saxons, but left it's philosophies and Myths behind, the most important of which was the young Jesus accompanying Joseph of Arimathea on a trip to Britain, where they were welcomed into the Fairyland of Avalon. Joseph would later bring the Holy Grail there, to be protected by a sacred sisterhood of Fae.

This would be popularized centuries later by the Troubadours, who would blend the Celtic Myths with Jewish Kabbalah and Islamic Sufism. This, in turn, led eventually to Alchemy.

Alchemy wasn't about literally transforming lead to gold, but using these elements as symbols for a system of personal transformation. The goal was the Philosopher's Stone. Here, the Alchemists returned to the Roman identification of Christ with the Sun. The final step was the Sacred Marriage of Sol and Luna, Sun and Moon, the union of opposites within oneself. As the Alchemists already had the Celtic identification of Christ with the Stag, Luna became identified with the Fairy Queen in her May Queen aspect.

In the mid-20th Century, this combining a Solar deity with a horned Nature deity, and a Moon goddess with the May Queen, would form the basis of a new religion called Wicca. This is something those here that are arguing that Christianity must be purely Jewish should keep in mind. While Christianity came from Judaism, it's no more Jewish than Wicca is Christian, despite Wicca's roots in Christian traditions.

Another thing that came from this is Tarot. Ever notice how the Tarot deck has both Celtic and Kabbalic elements? That's why.

Another major influence on Alchemy was the Gnostic Gospels. Here's a bit from them explaining the One. This covers how you can have God (with the capital "G") and still have the angels, saints, and the Tuatha De Danann (and whoever else works well with you)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vinHFfBFae4

In the 19th Century, Alchemy would strongly influence theologan George MacDonald's revival of Celtic Christian ideas. Here's some thoughts from MacDonald...

http://www.macdonaldphillips.com/fromtheheart.html

I especially like this...



IT IS THE TEMPLE OF NATURE and not the temple of the church, the things made by the hands of God and not the things made by the hands of men, that afford the truest of symbols of truth.

ALL NATURE SPEAKS, like the flower, messages from God, the Father of the universe.

EVERYWHERE IS GOD. The earth underneath us is his hand upholding us; the waters are in the hollow of it. Every spring-fountain of gladness about us is his making and his delight. He tends us and cares for us; he is close to us, breathing into our nostrils the breath of life, and breathing into our spirit thoughts that make us look up and recognize the love and care around us.

SEE THE FREEDOM OF GOD in his sunsets-never a second like one which is passed! See the freedom in his moons and skies, in the ever-changing solid earth!- all moving by no dead law, but in the harmony of the vital law of liberty.

EVERYTHING BEAUTIFUL is but a bit of love frozen.

EVERY FACT IN NATURE is a revelation of God.

ALL LOVELY SIGHTS tend to keep the soul pure, to lift the heart up to God.

THE MAN WHO, in harmony with nature, attempts the discovery of more of her meanings, is just searching out the things of God.

SOME CLOUDS RISE from stagnant bogs and pools, others from the wide, clean, large ocean. But either kind, thank God, will serve the angels to come down by.

ALL THE SNOW that fell on the black winding river vanished, as death and hell shall one day vanish in the fire of God.

THE BEAUTIFUL THINGS around us are the expressions of God's face.

THERE MUST BE TRUTH in the scent of the pinewood; someone must mean it.

THERE EXISTS A MYSTERY in the world, and in all the looks of it-a mystery because of a meaning. There is a jubilance in every sunrise, a sober sadness in every sunset. There is a whispering of strange secrets in the wind of the twilight, and an unknown bliss in the song of the lark.

Much of MacDonald's work centered on the Fairyland/Otherworld Myth. His protege would also write of the Fairylands with a strong Alchemical influence. He'd written a story as a Christmas present for a young girl, who suggested he publish it. He sought advice from MacDonald, who read the story to his family, who loved it. The protege was Lewis Carroll. The book was Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

Alice Liddell as the May Queen, photographed by Lewis Carroll.

http://www.alice-in-wonderland.biz/Alice_Liddell_flowers.jpeg

Together, the Alice books have become our greatest and most influential modern Myth. Here's the opening of Carroll's second Alice book, Through the Looking Glass, set to music by Pagan band Omnia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hH2JFSGMiM

Another section of the book set to music by Omnia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac186kDfHP8

And Franz Ferdinand setting to music a section of the first book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbOAwO1KpA

Carroll wouldn't be the only writer influenced. In the 20th Century, MacDonald's theology would be the biggest influence on J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis, who would use the Fairy Myths and Alchemical symbolism in their own work. Lewis said that he never wrote a book that didn't quote MacDonald at some point.

Sol and Luna, Stag and Fairy Queen, are key to many works in that genre by Christian writers. The Hero is often a Solar one, and finds wisdom and guidance in the form of the Goddess figure, a Fairy Queen archetype, in an enchanted, misty, wood. In a recent example, the Fairy Queen figure is even named Luna.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX3px_Ivs44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrLmdRSas7g

By the way, Luna's Patronus is a hare, while Harry's is a stag.

The BBC and Walden Media, in their adaptations of C. S. Lewis's second Narnia book, Prince Caspian, both cut what I thought was the most important part, the Bacchus sequence. I guess they didn't think it was action oriented enough, or maybe they thought it confusing. Regardless, by cutting it, they missed Lewis's entire point with that story. Here's an overview of the Bacchus sequence...

http://stefanie-bean.livejournal.com/124313.html

Now that we've gone over Lewis's influences, we see that it makes perfect sense for Christ and Bacchus to be close in the Fairyland of Narnia. To those here who are critical of the Celtic model of Christianity, I'll point out that C. S. Lewis was the most respected writer on the subject of Christianity of the 20th Century. This while the Narnia books happened to be on Starhawk's recommended reading list.

[Selah]

I don't think it matters if there actually was a historical Jesus or not. Hindus don't seem to care if there was a historical Rama or Krishna, yet they are worshipped widely throughout India. So...yeah.

[Æon Flux]

It's not as though the accounts of Jesus's life weren't written until centuries later. 15 years isn't that long, by standards of the time. Do you really think that many people who were tortured and killed for saying they were taught by Jesus and, in some cases, witnessed the Resurrection would have endured all that for something they knew to be a lie?

You can argue that accounts of Jesus's life were made into Myth, sure, but to deny the man existed makes no sense.
[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

1. The oldest surviving fragment of the New Testament is dated to almost two centuries after the supposed life of Christ.
Independent records, CENTURIES after the supposed life of Christ
15 years? Have you been reading apologist texts?
So... yeah. You're off by about one and a half centuries

2. IF Jesus existed there would have been independent, roman records of it. They were obsessive compulsive about record keeping. Without independent verifiable writings about his existance, NO ONE can claim Jesus was a historical figure. There is more proof Akilles existed than Jesus.

3. The persecutions of Christians didn't even really start until 400 years after the supposed life of Christ. (Not counting regular, run of the mill conflicts)

Jesus is not a historical figure, in any sense of the word.
The likelihood of Jesus having existed and stirring up so much and there not being any record about him from Romans at all... does not compute.

Yeah

[EponaCapaill]

1. Nothing was written down about Jesus until a couple of centuries after his supposed death. And any and all "original" documents we have today are at least a copy of a copy of a copy. (Meaning that at least three previous people have had their hands in there, meddling)

Agree 100% that there has been manipulation of the bible.

The books of the bible have been translated and manipulated in such a way as to push people in the direction that the early church wanted people to go.


2. Jesus is not a historical figure. There are nothing written down about him from the time of his supposed life, and subsequent teachings. And the Romans liked to keep records. It's highly unlikely that he actually existed.

If there was no actual Jesus, then someone did a mighty fine job of creating him and a mythos for him. Perhaps there was a real person named Jesus that it was based on, or maybe his name was something else.


3. The "true way" of Christianity, if there was such a thing, would more likely have been an adaptation of the Jewish faith, seeing as how Jesus was a Jew, more so than any of the "Pagan" faiths.

The Isrealites were polytheistic before Hezekia, were they not? Thus the roots of Judaism are pagan. It is concievable that Jesus was at least *in part* harkening back to some of those paganistic ideas.


Just... putting an additional 2 cents into the thread.

I welcome and appreciate your 2 cents, intelligent discussion is always a good thing.

[Tobias]

When it comes to any living religious tradition, I think we have to separate that which is factual, from that which is useful for spiritual purposes. For instance, it may be factual that the biblical God hates fags, but not entirely useful to go around town reminding everybody of this "fact". :)

Religions have to change a bit with the times. We see them doing this throughout history. It could easily have been argued that Mormonism wasn't a Christian religion when it was first getting started, but it's accepted today. Heretics were tortured and killed for many years, then enough of them banded together and we have Protestantism. Homosexuality is forbidden in the Bible, but now we have thousands of churches that accept them. At what exact point in time are to we to start accepting the fact that Christianity has changed when it comes to homosexuality? When the first Gay friendly church was founded? Or not until after the last fundamentalists changes his mind?

It's quite possible that leniency towards homosexuality is going to become widespread in the Church. I don't think there is going to be one set moment in history when people who are obsessed with "facts" can point to, and say, "Homosexuality became an acceptable Christian lifestyle on this day." ...Assuming that all homosexual Christians were not "real" Christians before that time, while afterwords they were.


So, while there may be some arbitrary exclusion factor that states that one must believe Jesus was the Messiah to be a Christian, there are many variations on what that statement means. And Christianity encompasses ever so much more than just a bunch of beliefs one must adhere to. It is a philosophy, a spiritual path, a magickal path, and the root of all Western culture. I think we all have a certain amount of Christianity in our systems, whether we like it or not!

[EponaCapaill]

So, while there may be some arbitrary exclusion factor that states that one must believe Jesus was the Messiah to be a Christian, there are many variations on what that statement means. And Christianity encompasses ever so much more than just a bunch of beliefs one must adhere to. It is a philosophy, a spiritual path, a magickal path, and the root of all Western culture. I think we all have a certain amount of Christianity in our systems, whether we like it or not!

Well said.

[perceval23]

1. The oldest surviving fragment of the New Testament is dated to almost two centuries after the supposed life of Christ.
Independent records, CENTURIES after the supposed life of Christ
15 years? Have you been reading apologist texts?
So... yeah. You're off by about one and a half centuries

2. IF Jesus existed there would have been independent, roman records of it. They were obsessive compulsive about record keeping. Without independent verifiable writings about his existance, NO ONE can claim Jesus was a historical figure. There is more proof Akilles existed than Jesus.

3. The persecutions of Christians didn't even really start until 400 years after the supposed life of Christ. (Not counting regular, run of the mill conflicts)

Jesus is not a historical figure, in any sense of the word.
The likelihood of Jesus having existed and stirring up so much and there not being any record about him from Romans at all... does not compute.

Yeah

The Gospel of Mark, according to most scholors, appeared around 70 AD, possibly earlier. So, that's no later than 40 years after the events described. That Gospel was based on earlier sources. That's enough time for legend to work it's way into things, but not for it to be made up entirely, as you claim it unquestionably was.

Nero blamed the burning of Rome on the Christians, and persecuted them. The Roman Senator and historian Tacitus was nine at the time, so he's a witness. He wrote...



Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#cite_note-92)] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Surely, a contemporary Roman Senator and historian is authentic enough, for you?