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Dawa Lhamo
December 5th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Viewpoint: The religion of atheism (http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20051202-110857-7838r)

The situation of the atheist with respect to religion is similar to that of the logical positivists in philosophy, who declared that metaphysics is meaningless and should be eliminated. The problem is that this statement or declaration is itself a metaphysical statement, so the logical positivist program could not succeed because it was internally inconsistent and possibly even incoherent. In a similar way, the religious fundamentalists who declare, for themselves, "I have nothing to do with philosophy," do in fact have something to do with philosophy because their statement is itself a philosophical one. It is the same for atheists: Their statement, "I do not believe in any religion or any god," is itself a religious statement.

Interesting... Granted, I have a definition of religion that is slightly different than the author's. I think that an essential element of religion is community of some sort, so I would replace "religion" with "spirituality".... but even in the case of the prison inmate, I would consider it religious, because the person sought to form a group.

lol. Though I have encountered people who will try to prove that something is not a religion by applying a strict and narrow definition of religion to it. lol. My poor unfortunate roommate got scored down on a paper (her first religious studies class) because the teacher assigned us to argue whether or not this ancient Korean group was religious based upon *our own* definition of religion, whatever that may be. She argued that religious people were necessarily peaceful, and got scored down because her definition was too narrow. (The whole assignment was flawed, though, because there were *no* guidelines as to the definition of religion, so the argument necessarily hinged upon the openness or narrowness of the personal definition.... )

Anyway, your thoughts?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

The Oracle
December 5th, 2005, 08:20 PM
How "Life of Brian" the quote is, sad realy, trying to sound clever and only looking like foolish (the quote, not you).

So, what the person is basicaly saying is that because Brian says he's not the messiah, he MUST be the messiah... how sad.

I'm Athiest myself, and I promise that when I say I don't believe is gods ect ect ect, that this is what I realy mean.

Since the word Religion means:
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:
the Christian religion

2 [C] INFORMAL an activity which someone is extremely enthusiastic about and does regularly:
Football is a religion for these people.

I can honestly say that being athiest isn't religous LOL

ofcourse thats just my opion ;)

Dawa Lhamo
December 5th, 2005, 09:24 PM
How "Life of Brian" the quote is, sad realy, trying to sound clever and only looking like foolish (the quote, not you).

So, what the person is basicaly saying is that because Brian says he's not the messiah, he MUST be the messiah... how sad.

I'm Athiest myself, and I promise that when I say I don't believe is gods ect ect ect, that this is what I realy mean.

Since the word Religion means:
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:
the Christian religion

2 [C] INFORMAL an activity which someone is extremely enthusiastic about and does regularly:
Football is a religion for these people.

I can honestly say that being athiest isn't religous LOL

ofcourse thats just my opion ;)If you're going by the dictionary, then of course not. But the first thing I learned in Religious Studies, was that there is no one good definition of religion. (and I was taught by experts in their field) If you choose to believe you are not religious according to your own definition of religion, alright. Buddhism isn't a religion either, then. And some kinds of Hinduism.

In fact, going by the definitions come up in the West by theologians throughout the ages, very few Eastern religions actually 'qualify' as religions. And only relatively recently have scholars endeavored to find a definition that encompasses all religions (and not include things like "I watch Law and Order *religiously*)...

*That* was what my point was about. That atheists are or are not religious depending upon whatever definition you care to apply.

Dictionaries are good to get the general idea of a concept, but in every field I've ever encountered, dictionary definitions, especially when referring to ideas or cultural conceptions, are not definitive if you ask studied people with a vested interest in that field.

Anyway, thanks for bringing in your perspective. I would call an atheist's statement of disbelief, rather a metaphysical or philosophical statement, in and of itself. But how would you wish for the first Amendment to apply to atheism? Do you really think that the gov't can promote the idea that there's a god if they don't name the god? It seems to me that that was the real issue.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

Happy Shrew
December 6th, 2005, 02:24 AM
Within the context of discrimination based on religion, atheism can count. A religion is simply defined as a set of firmly-held beliefs regarding right and wrong (Civil Rights Act of 1964). Atheism doesn't have these things intrinsically, but there are atheists who are religious according to this definition. For some people, that's really all religion is, and that's peachy.

Dawa Lhamo
December 6th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Within the context of discrimination based on religion, atheism can count. A religion is simply defined as a set of firmly-held beliefs regarding right and wrong (Civil Rights Act of 1964). Atheism doesn't have these things intrinsically, but there are atheists who are religious according to this definition. For some people, that's really all religion is, and that's peachy.Thanks for the information! I would wonder, though, because some atheists seem to get very offended when *anyone* considers them religious, what they think about even this definition. It's one thing to say, "well, I don't consider myself religious, you believe whatever you like about atheism" and another to say "I'm not religious; and it's foolish for you to think I'm religious either." For THOSE people, I wonder how they view Constitutional protection of atheism... Because it seems to me that if you don't want anyone calling atheism religion, then you're, in essence, eschewing that protection.

And what about agnosticism, then? I mean, it's not even a statement of belief. They don't believe or disbelieve in a god, they just don't much care. It's (sometimes bemused) indifference rather than "firmly-held beliefs" regarding anything. (I guess you could say that they believe it doesn't matter). I don't suppose agnostics would be up-in-arms, though about being legally defined as a religion (for the purposes of protecting from discrimination), as some atheists might be.

Anyway, I'm just rambling...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo