How to Keep Your Coven From Being Destroyed

[morningstar2651]

How to Keep Your Coven from Being Destroyed (http://www.wargoddess.net/essay/troll.php) is a seven part essay series by Eran. I'd like to see other peoples' opinions on the essay series.

I find the series highly informative & practical.

EDIT: Here is an updated version of the essay (http://home.mn.rr.com/bichaunt/Trolls/index.html). It is much larger, more and more in-depth

[morningstar2651]

51 views, 2 votes, and 1 vote is mine.

I'm assuming it's too long of an essay series.

[Amethyst Rose]

Yeah, the second vote is mine.... I abstained from voting cuz I'm not interested enough in the topic to read the essay...or rather, a series of essays. I am not, nor will I most likely ever be, involved with a coven.

[BlueMoon13]

I disagree totally, but my coven experience was not a positive one, to say the least:rolleyes: . What totally turned me off was the statement "just kick them out". I guess the taking of oaths means nothing to the essay writer, if she takes initiation into a coven so cavalierly. A coven is not a country club_tsk_ . The only person I've personally seen destroy a coven was the HP, an egotisical,paranoid,lascivious,abusive,raging alcoholic and drama queen, who loves to tell people that they're disposable, I'll get a whole new batch of students in the spring:aburst: So....I'm sour on coven practice in general.

Currently I'm working on a short project called The Top Ten Ways Your Coven Has Become A Cult-or-When Good HP's Go Bad.

[morningstar2651]

Ahh, yes, that's something else to watch out for as well.

A few months ago, a member of a Pagan group (she was never initiated into our coven though) I was in was kicked out for libel. And I'm not talking once or twice -- there was a definite pattern.

First, she accused our man in black of being abusive toward women, and spread this information to other groups. I investigated. It was a lie. I confronted her with it, and she accused him of being a pathological liar.

Next, she moved on to the High Priestess and her fiance. Her accusation was pretty much that the High Priestess cares more about her fiance than her religion, which progressed into "You don't deserve to be a High Priestess". I've known the High Priestess since before I was in Kindegarten, and she has earned her role. She does not abuse her power -- she was hesitant to kick the troll out.

Moving right along, on the day my fiance and I privately exchanged our vows, she accuses me of manipulating my fiance. My fiance pretty much told her where to shove her accusation & mind her own business. She continued accusations to the point of accusing me of being addicted to drugs (Which isn't too hard to disprove, considering the fact that the town I'm in now has mandatory drug testing for when you get a job) and psychically attacking her and almost causing a heart attack (...with a psychic push :wtf: ). It got to the point where the high priestess had enough!

I'm going to exclude the aftermath...It's not pretty.

In a coven, much like on this forum, if you break the rule(s), you can be kicked out. Finding a good coven with trustworthy leaders is the topic for a different essay (like this one (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos119.htm)) (and this one (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/msg0006.htm)) (especially this one (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/msg0011.htm)) (And some good stuff from Witchvox (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=basics&id=2880)).

[AlleyCat]

Yes I agree with BlueMoon I didn't really like it for that reason

You find people of all types in the world, it would be obvious as you got to know them a bit more what kind of person they are and whether their personality would mesh with the rest of the coven, if you just initiate anyone that comes along and wants to join in without talking to em first then prepared to have conflicts

[morningstar2651]

Um, did you read the entire essay and the entire thread?

This essay applies to Pagan groups as well, for example, college groups. The woman that was kicked out of our group never was initiated into our coven.

The essay was based off of a book (Antagonists in the Church: How to Identify and Deal with Destructive Conflict) recommended by Bonewits.

[BlueMoon13]

(OFF TOPIC) Uncle Aleister as the 3rd Stooge-Bwahahahahahaha!

[AlleyCat]

Yes I read through most of it, not excessively deeply my attention span is good, but not THAT good, its an interesting theory but...I just didnt like it

[morningstar2651]

You DO realize that it talks about preventing problematic people from joining covens then?

[morningstar2651]

(OFF TOPIC) Uncle Aleister as the 3rd Stooge-Bwahahahahahaha!
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law...nyuk nyuk!

[AlleyCat]

You DO realise I was refering to people in general, and that there are dickheads in all religions everywhere, and was making a general comment on if people will let just anyone join without gettin to know people there are going to be problems, and that most times these ppl are bloody obvious to spot anyway, mm anyone here an echo in here?

[ibonewits]

I know the series of essays is long, but it's worth reading all the way through. This is a series I have been recommending to people for a few years as it takes Haugk's advice in Antagonists in the Church and makes it specifically applicable to Pagan groups (whether covens or not).

We do have trolls/antagonists in Pagan groups and other Pagans need to know how to spot them and evict them. This is not to say that we don't also have bad apples amongst the clergy, but there are different tools for spotting them (see my Cult Danger Evaluation Frame at http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html as one example).

Having to evict someone from your coven, grove, lodge, etc. is not a violation of your oaths. It usually happens because the person involved has violated their oaths.

bright blessings,
Isaac _wiz_

[Jenett]

Unfortunately, it's not always easy to spot quickly. And sometimes, something changes in people (or they start making differen choices about how they respond to others) and you have problems.

Obviously, in any case where you've already been working closely with someone for a period of time, you don't just want to dump them out without close consideration, talking to them about things, looking for solutions. But sometimes there aren't going to be solutions. Sometimes people insist on making destructive choices. When that's the case, caring group leaders need a way to handle it that's going to cause as little damage to the group as possible.

(And, other times, it *is* possible to spot more quickly - that's why a lot of groups have a long lead time before making any specific commitments or oaths about someone. It's not the only way you should use to prevent problems, but it definitely helps. However, you do need to be aware what to look for. Not all of the Troll traits are going to be obvious unless a problem comes up.)

Besides the essay version, Eran, the author, has put together a longer online book version: home.mn.rr.com/bichaunt/Trolls/index.html . It's got some more information on setting up groups so that they're less likely to have problems of this kind in the first place.

[Evendusk]

I've dealt with too many people like this in my personal life and I agree with everything in the essays, harsh though it can seem sometimes.

[Astara Seague]

I only read the first one, and it made alot of sense, I am HP of my coven, and we have had a few of those types join with us or at least try, we dont initiate newbies for a very long time so we can observe where their priorites lie, to see if they will be a good fit or not, they are also not invited to 'major"things if we arent sure of them, also we personally invite our guests to join us, after we screen them but some still get through, but it doesnt take long for thier true colors to show..

[RainInanna]

It strikes me that building a strong, cohesive, worthwhile coven is hard work. So far I haven't found one that I feel I fit well with either. I have much respect for the people who do all the interpersonal work as well as the planning, organization, etc. that comes with leading and growing a coven.

[Terra Mater]

I didn't like the essay; whether for an individual or a group, Isaac's Cult Danger Evaluation Frame is a far more useful resource. First of all, the ABCDEF is shorter, guaranteeing far more people will actually read it all the way throug. Second, the ABCDEF is done as an evaluation table, which allows the person/group reviewing their particular troll to determine a proper course of action. Throwing the troll out may be a good solution in some cases, but there are other options that can be taken.

Now some reading this are going to comment "But the ABCDEF is for bad groups and the other article is for bad individuals." Cults start around individuals, and Isaac's tool is far better at assessing the danger level of both a cultish group and a trollish individual.

However, all that aside, the biggest problem I had was the way in which Eran compartmentalizes the issues into being the blame of one troll. There are many things that can destroy a coven, the troll only uses the weaknesses inherent in the groups they choose to create chaos and dissent. The article addresses what to do about the troll and while it ignores the issues within the group that gave the troll its strength to begin with. In short, its a long winded "blame game."

If a group's only method for dealing with a purposely troubling individual is kicking them out, then the group needs improvement as much as the individual does. This is not to say a group should never kick someone out, only that it should be reserved as a last resort. Any discord within the group should necessitate both an evaluation of the individual and the group. If the "troll" is telling lies and the lies are being believed, then the group has trust issues. Getting rid of the "troll" only gets rid of the current fly in the ointment. Fixing the greater trust issues will put the lid on the jar of ointment and keep the flies out.

There is alot of good information in the article, its just mistitled. Instead of "How to Keep Your Coven from Being Destroyed" it should have been called "Trollspotting and Controll: Tips for Dealing With Troublesome Individuals". Many things can detroy a coven, trolls are just a small part.

[Lunacie]

I didn't like the essay; whether for an individual or a group, Isaac's Cult Danger Evaluation Frame is a far more useful resource. First of all, the ABCDEF is shorter, guaranteeing far more people will actually read it all the way throug. Second, the ABCDEF is done as an evaluation table, which allows the person/group reviewing their particular troll to determine a proper course of action. Throwing the troll out may be a good solution in some cases, but there are other options that can be taken.

Now some reading this are going to comment "But the ABCDEF is for bad groups and the other article is for bad individuals." Cults start around individuals, and Isaac's tool is far better at assessing the danger level of both a cultish group and a trollish individual.

However, all that aside, the biggest problem I had was the way in which Eran compartmentalizes the issues into being the blame of one troll. There are many things that can destroy a coven, the troll only uses the weaknesses inherent in the groups they choose to create chaos and dissent. The article addresses what to do about the troll and while it ignores the issues within the group that gave the troll its strength to begin with. In short, its a long winded "blame game."

If a group's only method for dealing with a purposely troubling individual is kicking them out, then the group needs improvement as much as the individual does. This is not to say a group should never kick someone out, only that it should be reserved as a last resort. Any discord within the group should necessitate both an evaluation of the individual and the group. If the "troll" is telling lies and the lies are being believed, then the group has trust issues. Getting rid of the "troll" only gets rid of the current fly in the ointment. Fixing the greater trust issues will put the lid on the jar of ointment and keep the flies out.

There is alot of good information in the article, its just mistitled. Instead of "How to Keep Your Coven from Being Destroyed" it should have been called "Trollspotting and Controll: Tips for Dealing With Troublesome Individuals". Many things can detroy a coven, trolls are just a small part.

Seems to me they are two very different articles. Bonewits' article is intended for individuals who are looking for a decent group to join and gives advice on what to look for and what to beware of. Eran's article on the other hand is for groups to identify those charming new members who are actually passive-agressive trolls who are toxic to the group.

I've been on both sides of this issue now, gone from looking for a decent group to inheriting the leadership of the group and having to eject a troll. So much of what Eran wrote fit the troll we were dealing with, the more I tried to work with her and be reasonable and logical, the less sense she made in her attacks and the more she cried "victim."

Unfortunately she convinced a couple of other people that she was the poor misunderstood unloved victim and they also left the group. Amazing how much more cohesive the group feels with her gone, how much better we are working together, and how much more FUN we are having as a family group without the constant attempts to convince us that we needed to be doing things her way.

[Jenett]

Now some reading this are going to comment "But the ABCDEF is for bad groups and the other article is for bad individuals." Cults start around individuals, and Isaac's tool is far better at assessing the danger level of both a cultish group and a trollish individual.

Actually, that's not what I'd say: I'd say that Isaac's tool is aimed at evaluating the leadership of a group, while Eran's work is aimed for the leadership or membership (depending on structure) evaluating a member. They're two different sets of tools with some different demands and benefits.

You're right that there's a lot of crossover, but I think there's also some stuff in Eran's work (and in the various Christian 'problematic to toxic member' books that have come out: there's several out there besides Antagonists in the Church) that goes beyond evaluation of a group overall, and that's very useful.

For one thing, I think it's really useful for group leaders/responsible parties to know there are toxic people out there, that there are particular kinds of manifestations that seem to be more common in smaller groups (like many Pagan settings), and - probably most importantly, that they're not alone in dealing with them.

More people are aware of these things these days - but 4-5 years ago, that wasn't so true. Even now, when the info's been out on the web and fairly widely discussed if you're looking for group dynamics resources, a lot of people don't have any idea that this or other related resources are out there. As time goes on, and the conversations about it get more sophisticated (in the sense of going deeper and further and with varying approaches), there'll be more stuff. But at the same time, the conversation has to start somewhere.


If a group's only method for dealing with a purposely troubling individual is kicking them out, then the group needs improvement as much as the individual does.

Oh, I agree with you. And so does Eran - if you look at his own site, with the expanded version of the text, you'll find references to this throughout: he points out that these techniques are about dealing with a very specific type of person/behavior that can be very important - but that it's not the only thing to pay attention to.

Likewise, as he points out (and I've had experience with this one myself), attempts to find process to 'solve the problem' sometimes feed trolls. Not always, and that doesn't mean they shouldn't be given a fair shot. But also, sometimes, it may be necessary to say "We've tried all the reasonable options. They haven't worked."


Any discord within the group should necessitate both an evaluation of the individual and the group. If the "troll" is telling lies and the lies are being believed, then the group has trust issues. Getting rid of the "troll" only gets rid of the current fly in the ointment. Fixing the greater trust issues will put the lid on the jar of ointment and keep the flies out.

I agree with you that further work is needed (and the two times it's come up in my direct experience, that has, in fact, occured extensively.) But getting rid of the troll - the person who is directly trying to cause damage and who continues behavior damaging to the overall group - is part of the process too. So is troll-proofing for the future.

Also - have you ever been in a situation with someone telling lies? They're not always obvious. In the two cases I've been closest to, in one case, the person was not passing on information that people on both edges of that conversation thought was getting passed on. The reasons that happened were not quite as much about trust as they were about past communication patterns and such - something that needed fixing, but was more complicated than 'yes, we trust each other'.

In the other case, someone took a long time to get to out and out lying: what we saw far beforehand (and talked about, so we know when the person did start lying to us) was different presentations to different people, and a refusal to follow standard group process on some things (going around the person who said something they didn't want to hear, in inappropriate ways.)

Those things are a problem no matter how much the rest of the group trusts each other, or talks to each other, or communicates about it. For one thing, it meant we had to spend a lot of time cross-checking conversations, because we knew that there were misrepresentations going on, but not where, or what they were. It meant everything else ground to a halt for a little while, too - a disservice to other group members.


Many things can detroy a coven, trolls are just a small part.

I agree - and I hope you (and many other people) write up your experiences and thoughts about them, and share them. (It's on one of my project lists, too.) It's not the only part, but it's an important part.

[nebetmiw]

Oh, well it seems the links are not working anymore. Too bad I did want to read the essays. Is it possible that the site changed?

[Lunacie]

Oh, well it seems the links are not working anymore. Too bad I did want to read the essays. Is it possible that the site changed?


That is odd. The first link works fine for me but the second one says the site has been disabled by the owner.

[Jenett]

Oh, well it seems the links are not working anymore. Too bad I did want to read the essays. Is it possible that the site changed?

It looks like the address shifted as part of the Roadrunner buyout by Comcast about a year ago (i.e. the former addresses finally expired out.)

Try http://home.comcast.net/~bichaunt/Trolls

[Lunacie]

Thank you.

That really helps me, and my sense of self-esteem, to read those articles. I don't think they would have done much good before the trolls joined our group. one was very blatant and it was an easy matter to tell her that she simply didn't fit our group and we hoped she would find a group that suited her better (not likely eh), but the other troll that joined at the same time was much sneakier and she had seen how we handled her friend, so she played her game much differently. She definately suckered a couple of our members into "feeding the troll" and eventually we all agree to go our separate ways, but not without a lot of hard feelings and much soul searching on my part. A hard lesson for me, but one that was well learned.

[Dark_Tezcatlipoca]

By the tittle I assumed it was going to be about how to make a coven stronger and good techniques to organize and stuff but all I got was many pages of scapegoating "trolls" for all the problems in a coven.

[Lunacie]

By the tittle I assumed it was going to be about how to make a coven stronger and good techniques to organize and stuff but all I got was many pages of scapegoating "trolls" for all the problems in a coven.

I didn't see it that way at all, it's merely discussing one problem (a very serious one) that can happen in any group or coven.

What really resonated with me was that the more I tried to be reasonable with our troll, the more I tried to work the things out, the more she blamed me and the more unreasonable she became. If it had only been the two of us, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But these trolls always try to play people off each other, and one of my very dear friends got caught up in her scenario and found herself believing that I was being unreasonable and unwilling to compromise.

Thankfully the troll decided that she could split the group down the middle and convince her half to do things her way, but even after we agreed to part our ways she continued to send me emails and to scapegoat me for not running the kind of group she wanted rather than being happy that she now has a group she should be able to control and make the way she wants it to be. Looking back, it's ridiculous how long I tried to make peace and put up with her growing resentment towards me.

The bonus? One of our members who hadn't said a word or wanted to help with classes and crafts like she used to is now enjoying herself again, leading classes and bringing new crafts with great enthusiasm. The rest of us were also feeling very stifled by the constant criticism that we weren't doing things "the right way" although the group had been together for almost 3 years and had been growing and doing lots of things together.

[Jenett]

By the tittle I assumed it was going to be about how to make a coven stronger and good techniques to organize and stuff but all I got was many pages of scapegoating "trolls" for all the problems in a coven.

For me, 'scapegoating' as a term has a lot to do with blaming someone for something they didn't do/weren't involved in. That's different for holding someone responsible for (and taking appropriate action to support the function of a group) actions that they are actually taking.

You're right that a lot of group issues aren't particularly anyone's fault: you have people of good will, and good intention, who disagree, or misunderstand each other, or who want different things.

That's not a troll. And while some of the things that help with trolls will help with that (having a clear process, or clear communication about how the group works, how decisions are made, what the expectations are) will help - because those things help any group run more smoothly - what normal, reasonable people need is pretty straightforward.

Trolls go *far* beyond that - as described in the essays, and in Lunacie's comments.

Reasonable person: May have disagreements with a group, or a decision, or a way something is done. But they'll work to find ways to express that that don't get in the way of other things.

A troll will demand special treatment. They'll spend lots of time talking or emailing people to make their case - way out of proportion of the actual event. So, for something that might have taken an hour to actually do, they might be calling or emailing people in a way that takes 10 or even 20 hours to resolve - and other stuff those people could have been doing grinds to a halt.

Reasonable people talk to different people differently (we connect in different ways, prefer different kinds of communication styles, etc.)

Trolls will actively change their story as they talk to different people. I've been in situations where what a troll has told me, and what they've told other people, has been *diametrically different* - they're asking for contradictory things from the same people. (And we have the emails to demonstrate it, once the other people in the equation knew to talk to each other.) That's destructive to a group - and it leaves the reasonable people sitting there going "Am I crazy?" which is, shall we say, not my favorite way to spend time.

I could go on like this, but Eran does it better with some of his examples from various people.

If someone outright lies to me, it is *not* scapegoating to call them on it - or to expect them to be responsible for the consequences. If a presumed covenmate lies to me, and in particular, lies in a way that causes other dissention in the group, that's a big deal. It has all sorts of other trust and reliability applications.

Likewise, if someone is taking up tremendous amounts of individual group members time, it is not scapegoating to say "This is unacceptable" and to insist on following a reasonable, well-tested model for resolving concerns. (Like a specific meeting with some time limits: at the end of that meeting, people can agree or disagree, but all sides have been aired, a basic solution is figured out, and people can go on with life.)

It's okay - and necessary - for people to say "I'm not getting dragged into your drama."

But it's scary for a lot of us: we're taught that we *should* be open ot everyone, even if they're getting in the way - all the time, regularly - of the stuff we actually want to do in the group.

A lot of Eran's tips are about keeping the focus on the shared goals of the group (so, in a coven, things like 'spending time with our Gods' and 'doing magical work' and 'sharing ritual') and making that the first priority - rather than letting specific unreasonable people destroy that.

[Zephyrstorm]

Trolls get off on creating drama - they are power tripping.

Interpersonal conflicts generally make everyone involved uncomfortable until they are resolved.

Personal disagreements happen, sure, but Eran's tips are not about interpersonal conflicts or disagreements. I rather like the articles. I've seen trolls cripple what were once very healthy groups too often - more pieces like this are needed.

[Lunacie]

Jennet, that was a great response. I especially agree with this part...


For me, 'scapegoating' as a term has a lot to do with blaming someone for something they didn't do/weren't involved in. That's different for holding someone responsible for (and taking appropriate action to support the function of a group) actions that they are actually taking.

I was very sad that two people who I thought were pretty reasonable were so derailed by our trolls unreasonableness that they bought into her petty schemes and victimhood and while they thought they were trying to help the group run more smoothly, they had become unwilling to listen to or consider any perspective except for that of the troll.

In the end she will burn them too, and there isn't anything I can do to prevent that. Any attempt to contact them afterwards will probably be seen as just wanting to say "I told you so." That's the part that I really hate.

[Ivy Artemisia]

I only read the first 2 essays, and not all the responses (short on time). Those posters who posted about 'just kicking the troll out,' and how thats not going to help the situation need to know that sometimes it is going to help the situation. I've had to ask people in our group to leave. It was really difficult for me- but the leader needs to look after the good of the coven, IMO. And, we've had some doozys. They usually find their way out (almost always prior to initiation-as we have a dedicant period for this very reason) but if need be, I am willing to ask people to leave as they aren't a good fit for our group.

That doesn't mean that if someone isn't loved by all, they'll get the boot, either. Usually a few personal conversations precede the boot, and that person knows its coming. And for those speaking on "oaths" and kicking out an initiate.. I'm not BTW, but we are an initiatory group, and oaths go both ways. Usually, if someone is behaving badly, they are either violating an oath, or the bylaws. If they are negatively impacting the group, then it is my responsibility as leader to repair the dynamics. If it means asking someone to leave, and then repairing the coven hive mind, relationships/dynamics, then it's on me to do just that.

In the previous group that I've been in, we had many trolls in that group, too, but the original HPS didn't do anything about them, and we had a lot of back-biting, fighting, irresponsibility, failed circles because people didn't take responsibility for what their role was. Everyone wanted different things from the group, and the stress was exacerbated by the trolls. It was awful. I almost walked away from group work, totally. But I hung in there, and when the HPS left, I tried to fix what I could, but it was pretty far gone, and the group dissolved.

Now, I'm part of a small, tight-knit family. I'm so so sorry for those people who've had power-trippy HPSs. Give other groups a try... most leaders just want to help other people learn and grow.