Hereditary Witches

[maeli]

My mother is a christian women who brought me up in the Kingdom Hall (Jeohavahs Witness). Though she does not go to church now she is firm in her beliefs. But get this. My mother is psychic. She has shown this to me several times. She used runes and the tarot when I was a kid and we have done the quiji board together. She is the only person I know that amazes me when it comes to this. Her dreams come true and she tends to know everything before hand. I have an aunt who is the same way and is as far as I know Christian. Actually all my aunts have some psyhcic abilities. Does anyone here believe in hereditary witches. Me and my sisters have pondered this thought before. Not saying that I come from a line of witches or anything because I am no where near having the capability that my mom has. Just a question for thought.

[puchidevil]

erm..........what has being psychic got to do with being a witch???

Just thought i would ask, since it was the first question that popped into my head. :)

[Morgandria]

No, I don't believe in "born" witches, or witch bloodlines.

[SidneyCozzoi]

erm..........what has being psychic got to do with being a witch???

Just thought i would ask, since it was the first question that popped into my head. :)

That's a good point. I believe that everyone has the capacity to 'know.' to quote Death "Everyone knows everything, they're just in denial becasue it's the only way to cope" that may not be a direct quote, but you get the point. As far as heredity and being a witch is concerned, do you think of a witch as a person who has chosen a path or another being much like a person only with certain 'magical powers' I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic... it's not meant to be :hahugh:

[maeli]

Your right, I misused the word witch, my apoligies. But to put it this way all my aunts use charms, herbs and so on. My mother uses divination. She may not cast spells but do witches have to cast spells to claim that they are a witch? Do you have to claim to be a witch to be one?


Let me put it in other words because you are right. Because being a witch has nothing to do with pyshcic abilities.

Do you think that pyschic abilities are hereditary?

[maeli]

And just to note, I don't claim to be a witch,

[SidneyCozzoi]

My mother is not a witch. She, however, subconsciously practices and behaves much like a witch. She has a born knowledge of Feng Shui. I think people are born with a certain amount of innate knowledge or learn it as they grow. Much of what witches do now reflect what many people in general practiced thousands of years ago in the mainstream society. These behaviors can be passed down by example.

[puchidevil]

I believe that everyone is born with psychic abiities/sixth sense/intuition. (call it what you will :) )

Outside influences will determine how we grow and develop within these capabilities.

For example - if your parents openly use psychic 'tools' to focus - then you are more likely to develop the innate abilities you possess whilst young.

I wouldnt call it hereditary exactly. :)

[Tabbykitty]

Hi Maeli,


with regards to the question, do I believe that there are hereditary witches, yes I do believe so.

To the question, do I believe that psychic abilities are hereditary, yes, I also believe that that is so.

However, I'd like to point out that intuition as a whole is a trait shared by the entire human race and is available to one and all. However, there is strong evidence to show that psychic abilities as we currently understand it (ie. clairvoyance, psychometry, etc...) is likely inherited.

From where I come from there are religious and spiritual groups that believe strongly in the importance of the ancestral lineage. Traits both physical and spiritual are passed down from generation to generation.

I once did an inquiry about psychic or spiritual traits and gifts among members of my local new age community. I wanted to find out why it is that some people struggle for years to develop their psychic skills, while others seem to take to it like fish to water. Well, the theory is that, as we progress through various lifetimes, we pick up skills. If a man has been a very spiritual man for many lifetimes, it is most likely then that in this lifetime he would possess a lot of spiritual insights and gifts.

If this lifetime is the first where someone is awakened to the spiritual, then he or she would have to take the effort to "cultivate" certain skills.

As a result of the development of the soul, souls who have experienced many lifetimes practicing these gifts tend to be born into all psychic or all spiritual families. Or families where people have these gifts but don't really use them.

Time and time again in my inquiry, I have come across psychics or people with strong psychic abilities who also coincidently come from families that share these traits.

This is apparently the same too for practicioners of magic. There are all magic practicing families in my country. Apparently many of the members of these families have spent many lifetimes being witches.


The main point that I would like to draw from this is that, this life is only a speck of time in the vast journey of the development of the soul. We aren't all at the same stage and knowledge and skill can be picked up over time. Also, I learned over time that we were all made different. And each time we reincarnate we have different life purposes and different lessons to learn. It isn't important to have psychic or magical skills at all. In the end, all can still progress ahead spiritually if only we have the HEART to search for the truth, to walk our path with integrity and understanding.

Wisdom and spiritual understanding are fortunately things that ALL of us can in this lifetime, aspire to.

Well, there is a lot more that I can tell you about this, Maeli. Please message me if you want to know more.

[SageofThyme]

Yes I believe they can be
I belong to a family of psychics and witches (not sure how far they go back so I'm not claiming a long line). My family recognised that I was psychic from being young -and didn't discourage it and did support me when I asked about it but at the same time didn't force it down my thought. So although I was born "psychic" I did learn about it from a young age also -so how much is natural ability and how much is because I have worked at it who knows

However I think it can be true of any ability to some degree (The book Presence of the Past by Rupert Sheldrake might interest you) and everyone is born will the ability to learn it.

I don't believe being hereditary makes me better or worse than those who have trained. If anything my advantage has been the people I have known over the years who have taught me

[aislin_ryann]

I believe that psychic abilities are inherited, kind of. I think the ability to do different things runs in a blood line. Take mine for example, my mother's, mother's mother (my great grandmother) is irish and was the first to marry a non-irish for many generations. I know that the blood line is old and it seems that all of the females have psychic dreams and empathy. I know, not too unusual as far as abilities go. But none of the males in the blood line have exhibited these abilites. And it isn't something that is really hidden in the family. We all talk about it. The majority of my family are Christians when it comes to religion but they are kind of witchy in their lifestyle. Caring for the earth, healing naturaly, with herbs and the like. I don't consider them witches though. Just in touch with the natural world.

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

Your right, I misused the word witch, my apoligies. But to put it this way all my aunts use charms, herbs and so on. My mother uses divination. She may not cast spells but do witches have to cast spells to claim that they are a witch? Do you have to claim to be a witch to be one?


Let me put it in other words because you are right. Because being a witch has nothing to do with pyshcic abilities.

Do you think that pyschic abilities are hereditary?

i think as with any skill some people are born with an inborn predisposition to be good at certain things. Some are good at sports, some good at arts, and some good at meta-physical skills and psychic skills. Whether these skills are nurtured or not, i think also plays a big role in it.

as for the word witch, i think it's a tricky one. what one culture calls a witch, another may call by another name...calling this person a witch may be incredibly insulting, while calling them thier correct title in that culture may be a great honor. To look at it most broadly witchcraft isn't bound to any one group...certain forms of it generally are, and it may go by different names, but some basics remain. However, imho, going around calling some one a witch, unless they'ev made it known that thats an ok thing to call them is or at least has the potential to be very insulting and/or troublesome for them.

[Morgandria]

*snickers* I got red karma from this thread! Woohoo! The person didn't even post here, either, or otherwise give me a reason why....gotta love that.

[maeli]

*snickers* I got red karma from this thread! Woohoo! The person didn't even post here, either, or otherwise give me a reason why....gotta love that.

:jawdrop: ...ouch

[Morgandria]

I actually find it amusing. They didn't even attempt to give me an alternate viewpoint. Ah well.

[Philosophia]

I don't think there is such a thing called "born" or "heredatary" witches. There's too much confusion over what is considered "pure" blood and not. Witchcraft is a very large and varied path.
Can gifts be in families? Sure. You can have certain techniques that allow the ability to grow better, but thats not necessarily witchcraft.

[Morgandria]

Pretty much. Witchcraft is a craft - something you have to learn, and practice, to use. You can be born to people skilled in that craft, but it is not inherent, and you still have to learn its' ways to become proficient in it. I think of it the same as carpentry, or dancing - you aren't born knowing how to do these things genetically, even if it's been the family trade for hundreds of years.

Gifts, however, I think are possible to have run in families. It's still something you have to practice and hone - I don't believe we're born at all with control over our talents - but the seed of certain types can sometimes run in bloodlines. I know that my own family all seems to have a predilection for having certain kinds of dreams, and some precognitive abilities. This only came to light recently, though, since no-one in my family had really talked about it to me before.

[Crystal Raven]

I am a witch...my mother & grandmothers & great grandmothers all had pyschic abilities and I do too.

Now heres the question...I am not a hereditary witch, but 2 of my daughters are interested in Witchcraft, and one is now practicing...so does that make her a hereditary???

[Morgandria]

Well, she didn't really inherit it...she has simply chosen to follow it. If a few more generations follow the same path with the same ways of doing things, you might have a family tradition on your hands, which is kind of neat. But it's not hereditary, in the same sense as a birth mark or a hair colour or a plot of land might be.

[Astara Seague]

I believe it can be passed down, and taught while you are growing up by someone of your own linage, it happened to me
but I also believe that certain gifts are inside everyone, they just have to choose what they do with it..

[stella01904]

MM ~ Everyone is psychic, not everyone has unfolded it much. Gifts run in families. Sylvia Browne (who, btw, is not a Witch) states her grandmother was psychic. Psychism is not Witchcraft but it helps. ;)

Hereditary Witchcraft is when someone in your family teaches you the Old Ways, Raven Grimassi has a wonderful book by that name and he's over at the author's forum here. He makes himself very available to answer questions, he can clarify anything you need to know on that subject.

Hereditary Witchcraft DOES exist but is not identical to modern Wicca so it tends to get dismissed as "not real". Semantics.
BB, Stella

[SidneyCozzoi]

Simply put,:boing:
It's education not genetics.

[KaliGiri5]

erm..........what has being psychic got to do with being a witch???

Just thought i would ask, since it was the first question that popped into my head. :)

It has a lot to do with it..her mom is a born witch
which makes her a hereditary witch.
you are into Astrology..Neptune rules magic so does Pluto both of which also rules psychic gifts.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

Hereditary Witchcraft is when someone in your family teaches you the Old Ways, Raven Grimassi has a wonderful book by that name and he's over at the author's forum here. He makes himself very available to answer questions, he can clarify anything you need to know on that subject.

First of all, I know few people who refer to it as "hereditary witchcraft" - since the craft itself must be taught, while there are certain abilities that might come from a family bloodline. I feel a more accurate term would be someone who was raised in a "family tradition" - often refered to as "famtrad" in some Pagan circles.


Hereditary Witchcraft DOES exist but is not identical to modern Wicca so it tends to get dismissed as "not real". Semantics.
BB, Stella

I will have to disagree with you on semantics. The terms Wicca and Witchcraft are often used interchangaby, although the definition of witchcraft as a term of religion on its own or a craft within a religion has been debated quite frequently. I'm sure a quick search would bring up plenty of threads if you're interested.

Blessings, ~Caitriona

[puchidevil]

It has a lot to do with it..her mom is a born witch
which makes her a hereditary witch.

dont talk ridiculous :)

Being a witch is a lifestyle you consciously embrace or develop over time through traditional or self-educational means. You are no more 'born' a witch than you are 'born' a christian/jew/buddhist etc'. Just because your parents are of their chosen religion/lifestyle does not mean that you have to be also.

Although we ARE all 'born' with innate sixth sense abilities - how we choose to adopt and use these abilities is again a choice we undertake.

[raven grimassi]

First of all, I know few people who refer to it as "hereditary witchcraft" - since the craft itself must be taught, while there are certain abilities that might come from a family bloodline. I feel a more accurate term would be someone who was raised in a "family tradition" - often refered to as "famtrad" in some Pagan circles.

You raise an interesting point. Personally I use the phrase "trained in a family tradition" when I refer to myself in my writings and in interviews. One reason that I use this phrase is because I believe that training is vital.

It is interesting to note that references in the writings on Witchcraft to "witch blood" do exist, and often we find mention of the "gift" being passed in the blood (but that not everyone in the family possessed the gift). So this leaves open any debate regarding genetics.

The hereditary component of Witchcraft is mentioned by various folklorists in Italy during the 19th century. It also appears in the writings of Francesco Guazzo, who was an Italian Witch Hunter. But it should be noted that not everyone born into a Witch family becomes a Witch (more specifically does not end up practicing Witchcraft).


The terms Wicca and Witchcraft are often used interchangaby, although the definition of witchcraft as a term of religion on its own or a craft within a religion has been debated quite frequently.

And we seem to live in a time when there is no longer a definition but instead many definitions. I think this leads to a great deal of miscommunication and misunderstanding. When someone today tells me that they are Wiccan or a Witch, I have to first ask what they mean by that before going any further in the conversation. The replies are often astonishing, and the only thing I have yet to hear is a reference to being from another planet inhabited by Witches. :collapse:

[Wiccanizer]

You are no more 'born' a witch than you are 'born' a christian/jew/buddhist etc'. Just because your parents are of their chosen religion/lifestyle does not mean that you have to be also.

Hmm...depends what you mean by "witch". To me a witch is someone who is naturally gifted when it comes to magical workings.
Think of it this way: some people are natural born musicians; they just have that special something that others don't have and will never match no matter how much they train and practice.
Some people are born with a natural ability in the magical arts.


Although we ARE all 'born' with innate sixth sense abilities - how we choose to adopt and use these abilities is again a choice we undertake.

This, I agree with.

[Xerenity]

Traits of a family such as esp or telekinis can be past through the bloodlines. Also different forms of magic such as Dragon or etheral is tied to family lines, or maybe your previous life is the tie that binds you to your current path.
My experience with "hereditary witch" is dragon magic. My family has a guardian bronze that was quite happy to have me return back to the fold and "take up" my family duties to the dragons.
As for being a witch, my experience is that no you don't have to cast spell to be a "witch". I also have to ask do you pray to your diety everyday. If you do then that is also a form of "casting a spell".
I have been taught that "wiccan is not a witch" and vice versa. When I get asked what I am? I respond "I am Christian and a witch that practices White magic. I am also an Earthbound Angel with Devil's horns and tail."

[ancestral_lee]

I have been taught that "wiccan is not a witch" and vice versa.

shouldnt that be " all Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are wiccans"

lee

[KaliGiri5]

dont talk ridiculous :)

Being a witch is a lifestyle you consciously embrace or develop over time through traditional or self-educational means.


No it isn't..that just what them books have you thinking.
maybe being a Wiccan is a lifestyle chosen.
_wedgie_

[puchidevil]

No it isn't..that just what them books have you thinking.
maybe being a Wiccan is a lifestyle chosen.
_wedgie_


What books would they be then that you think I have read?

[KaliGiri5]

What books would they be then that you think I have read?

Whatever books you read that has you thinking we have chosen to be witches'
we can become pagan if we want..yeah I agree
-=-
But witches..
There is very few left our age and older..believe it our not
at the moment..for some reason..more than anytime before
a lot of "healers" are coming in.
many ladies here with children have baby witches
:wave:
the popularity of Paganism in general will help the little ones later on..
not so much to the young ones but to the ones who raise them.
everything from Wicca to Harry potter coming out at this time is for a reason,
this helps the rest of the people who will cross their paths as far as acceptance & being believed.
the baby witches can pick any roll they wish...from being a pope to president to being an entertainer to being a regular joe as long as they are able to heal.
some will heal by groups/masses some on a personal/individual level.
and our "gifts" can't be abused..you'd lose it if you try
this means some of the darker people who seem negative..they too have their role.
it's not chosen by us....we are chosen by God or however you see him/her.
a hereditary witch is a born witch.

[stella01904]

the baby witches can pick any roll they wish...from being a pope...MM ~ Maybe they are "able" to do so, but that sounds very hypocritcal. While I understand people who are Catholic in public and worship the Old Gods in private, anyone who would take it so far as becoming Pope strikes me as taking dishonesty to the nth degree. :crylaugh:
BB, Stella

[puchidevil]

Whatever books you read that has you thinking we have chosen to be witches'
we can become pagan if we want..yeah I agree
-=-
But witches..
There is very few left our age and older..believe it our not
at the moment..for some reason..more than anytime before
a lot of "healers" are coming in.
many ladies here with children have baby witches
:wave:
the popularity of Paganism in general will help the little ones later on..
not so much to the young ones but to the ones who raise them.
everything from Wicca to Harry potter coming out at this time is for a reason,
this helps the rest of the people who will cross their paths as far as acceptance & being believed.
the baby witches can pick any roll they wish...from being a pope to president to being an entertainer to being a regular joe as long as they are able to heal.
some will heal by groups/masses some on a personal/individual level.
and our "gifts" can't be abused..you'd lose it if you try
this means some of the darker people who seem negative..they too have their role.
it's not chosen by us....we are chosen by God or however you see him/her.
a hereditary witch is a born witch.


So what your saying then is - you believe that a witch is simply someone who was born with the ability to heal??

[KaliGiri5]

So what your saying then is - you believe that a witch is simply someone who was born with the ability to heal??


yep
if they are healers
we all can heal to a point..but for some
that is the reason they are here.
the new ones coming up will blow your mind.
they are able to do magical things under the age 6 for example and has nothing to do with being taught that or reading about it.
and nothing to do with what religion they are affiliated with.

[ancestral_lee]

what do you mean by the term 'witch'?

go back further than 50 odd years and witches were something other than healers. its only with the rise of modern witchcraft that 'witch' has taken on a new meaning.

a born healer isnt a witch, theyre a healer - though they might go on to be a witch if THEY choose.... but then the books youve been reading have been telling you differently.

lee

[puchidevil]

a born healer isnt a witch, theyre a healer - though they might go on to be a witch if THEY choose.... but then the books youve been reading have been telling you differently.

lee


Precisely!!

[Crystal Raven]

am not trying to stir up trouble, I understand the whole "born" aspect for the most part...I know those who were born healers, or born seers, or born artists etc...but what would the characteristics of a born witch be?

[Wiccanizer]

am not trying to stir up trouble, I understand the whole "born" aspect for the most part...I know those who were born healers, or born seers, or born artists etc...but what would the characteristics of a born witch be?

You'll get a difference answer to that question with every person you ask. It seems to me that everyone has a different definition for the word witch.
Some will say that a healer is also a witch because of their healing abilities. Others will call a Tarot reader, or fortune teller a witch.
I personally call a natural born witch someone who is naturally drawn to the magical arts and who needs little to no training because they naturally "know" what to do. Yes, they do exist. I've met some.

[stella01904]

You'll get a difference answer to that question with every person you ask. It seems to me that everyone has a different definition for the word witch. MM ~ It's become much more slippery than it has any reason to be, true. Maybe it's time it was narrowed a bit.

I personally call a natural born witch someone who is naturally drawn to the magical arts and who needs little to no training because they naturally "know" what to do. Yes, they do exist. I've met some.By this definition, Sylvia Browne would fall into the category since she makes uncannily accurate predictions and converses with spirits. She states her grandmother possessed this same gift.

Sylvia Browne is not a Witch, however, she is a Gnostic Christian and would probably be very quick to correct anyone who called her a "Witch". She has very nice things to say about Wicca and Witchcraft but is very clear that this is not her path.

There is an old, incorrect usage of the word "witch" (small "w") to refer to "witch doctors", etc. - in other words, tribal shamens not well understood by writers of the time. This is probably the basis for the school of thought (which has become quite widespread and served to muddy the waters even further, IMHO) that "Witchcraft" is just magic and not religion. The Witches in the old times incorporated religion, as did tribal shamens. Take the religious aspect out of magic and you have folk magic, not Witchcraft. People who find pennies and put them in their shoes are not necessarily Witches.

A Witch is a practitioner of one of the ancient european fertility religions. It may be adapted to modern times and reconstituted somewhat but you still have a God and Goddess, seasonal rites, etc.

A hereditary Witch may well be born with some ability, so that the older Witch in the family says "Ah! THIS is the one I am going to train!" but the abilities alone without the training do not make a Witch.

I fully expect that there will be many here who do not like this answer and I will not have as much time online to argue back & forth and defend my point as all of you may require, so I refer you to just about any book written by any legitimate Elder.
BB, Stella

[Ben Gruagach]

A Witch is a practitioner of one of the ancient european fertility religions. It may be adapted to modern times and reconstituted somewhat but you still have a God and Goddess, seasonal rites, etc.

There are certainly some witches who follow what they believe are based on ancient European fertility religions --- however they are not the only types of witches out there.

In pre-Gardnerian days it was common for people who self-described as witches to be the cunning men or wise women of the community who provided services such as healing (often through magickal or herbal techniques), divination, or spellwork. But if you examined their religious outlook they were definitely not following ancient European fertility religions.

In the United States they often preferred to call what they were doing "pow-wow" although some did call it witchcraft. There's lots of pre-Gardnerian literature on this at one of my favourite websites, Sacred-texts.com (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/index.htm) (the link takes you directly to the Americana section.)

I also have a copy of a very interesting grimoire called the Black Books of Elverum, edited by Mary S. Rustad. It's an English translation (with the originals reproduced on facing pages) of a Norwegian folk-magick spellbook that is about as close to a traditional witch's workbook as you're likely to find. The books are from the 1800s at least unless they are very clever forgeries. The important point for this thread though is that the magick outlined in the book clearly relies on the practitioner being a Christian and not a follower of some ancient European fertility religion.

Defining witch as being exclusively followers of ancient European fertility religions is a very modern (I would say post-Gardnerian) thing and ignores the huge number of pre-Gardnerian witches who clearly do not fit that definition.

[KaliGiri5]

what do you mean by the term 'witch'?

go back further than 50 odd years and witches were something other than healers. its only with the rise of modern witchcraft that 'witch' has taken on a new meaning.

a born healer isnt a witch, theyre a healer - though they might go on to be a witch if THEY choose.... but then the books youve been reading have been telling you differently.

lee

Maeli asked if she was a hereditary witch since her mom was a Christian but she is psychic and used runes..tarot and even used an Ouija board.
Puchidevil's reply was "erm..........what has being psychic got to do with being a witch???"
it has everything to do with being a witch.
today it's cool to say you're a witch..
in the past...that isn't what we called ourselves...this is what the people who killed us called us.
it was meant as a negative...to anyone who possessed any supernatural/paranormal powers.
the others assumed this power was given to us by Satan that we was his followers and sold our souls to have this power..
they thought if it was God given then everyone would be able to do the same thing.
Semites(Jews,Arabs,Roma) & Indo Europeans(Persians) brought this to Europe..they both benefit and suffered from it.
Some people with no power did take advantage of white people because they made money from their ignorance..
white people assumed all these dark people dabbled in the black arts and knew some secrets with magic..
and was willing to pay for services..everything from simple readings to death curses.
that gave birth to the stereotypical Gypsy.
while many more died because the white folks was scared of them.
-=-
Puchidevil is into Astrology...should have known this.
all witches have a strong Neptune and/or Pluto...
Neptune rules magick...the paranormal...psychic gifts...spirits..the occult.. so on.
a "psychic attack" by a witch means what to you if she isn't psychic??
you don't have to be a healer to be a witch but we can all do that.
I was just saying for the first time witches are being born today in masses..
most of who will be healers.
these kids will be born witches and able to do magic without your pagan supplies...without reading a book.
high strung ones do low magic and low strung ones will do high magic.
these are the same kids that New Age people call Indigo & Crystal children
they are "lightworkers"
:spaceman:

[Wiccanizer]

MM ~ It's become much more slippery than it has any reason to be, true. Maybe it's time it was narrowed a bit.By this definition, Sylvia Browne would fall into the category since she makes uncannily accurate predictions and converses with spirits. She states her grandmother possessed this same gift.

Sylvia Browne is not a Witch, however, she is a Gnostic Christian and would probably be very quick to correct anyone who called her a "Witch". She has very nice things to say about Wicca and Witchcraft but is very clear that this is not her path.

There is an old, incorrect usage of the word "witch" (small "w") to refer to "witch doctors", etc. - in other words, tribal shamens not well understood by writers of the time. This is probably the basis for the school of thought (which has become quite widespread and served to muddy the waters even further, IMHO) that "Witchcraft" is just magic and not religion. The Witches in the old times incorporated religion, as did tribal shamens. Take the religious aspect out of magic and you have folk magic, not Witchcraft. People who find pennies and put them in their shoes are not necessarily Witches.

A Witch is a practitioner of one of the ancient european fertility religions. It may be adapted to modern times and reconstituted somewhat but you still have a God and Goddess, seasonal rites, etc.

A hereditary Witch may well be born with some ability, so that the older Witch in the family says "Ah! THIS is the one I am going to train!" but the abilities alone without the training do not make a Witch.

I fully expect that there will be many here who do not like this answer and I will not have as much time online to argue back & forth and defend my point as all of you may require, so I refer you to just about any book written by any legitimate Elder.
BB, Stella

Sorry. Gotta agree to disagree. Wicca does not own the terms "witch" or "witchcraft". The only terms we can call our own are "Wicca" and "Wiccan". Some of us choose to practice witchcraft, some of us don't.

Also, there are many different kinds of witches or folk magicians as you like to refer to them. Some are Buddhist, some are Catholic, some are atheists and some are [insert whatever path here].

Witches do not necessarly need a religion to incorporate to their practices. JMHO.

[SidneyCozzoi]

Witches do not necessarly need a religion to incorporate to their practices. JMHO.
I am not wiccan or pagan, I study witchcraft, hinduism, Pa Kua, and many other lifstyles/philosophies/religions etc...
Again, I think it's EDUCATION, not GENETICS. Genetic memories do exsist. A person can be born with a memory of practices, that doesn't mean they have the ability. I know how to anoint a candle before I know what witchcraft was, perhaps I saw it somewhere, perhaps it is a genetic memeory, that doesn't make me a hereditary witch. I'm not even a half-blood! I'm just a muggle, like everyone else :hahugh:

[KaliGiri5]

A Witch is a practitioner of one of the ancient european fertility religions. It may be adapted to modern times and reconstituted somewhat but you still have a God and Goddess, seasonal rites, etc.

A hereditary Witch may well be born with some ability, so that the older Witch in the family says "Ah! THIS is the one I am going to train!" but the abilities alone without the training do not make a Witch.


ancient european fertility religions?
what religion what that be?..and please name one pre Asian contact.
because there is no witch religion.
this is why neo pagans have such a hard time.

A hereditary Witch...yeah & no
they don't have to come to you and pick you out and train you
either you are or you are not..
your able to do what you can without being taught.
you may use techniques used by family members.
but it's not needed for you to be a witch.
you become a witch because others refer to you as such,
not because you called yourself that.

[Ben Gruagach]

all witches have a strong Neptune and/or Pluto...
Neptune rules magick...the paranormal...psychic gifts...spirits..the occult.. so on.

I hope this isn't too far off topic (sorry if it is.)

I'm just curious -- can you tell me what constitutes a strong Neptune or Pluto in one's natal chart?

I don't know enough about astrology to know what's supposed to be strong and what's not in a chart. But I do have a printout of my own natal chart and would like to see if I have this strong Neptune or Pluto feature.

And to bring this back to the topic, I think that a hereditary witch can be one of two things:

- a person who has natural talent at witchy things (magick, divination, healing, etc.) that they inherited through their family

- a person who is taught witchy things by blood relatives as a way to keep family knowledge and skills alive through the generations

A person could have one or the other of these, or both, and I guess it could be said they inherited their witchcraft from previous family members. However, a lot of people imply that those previous family members self-identified as witches when it seems that is often not the case. So on that side I can see saying it's not really hereditary witchcraft if the previous family members you got your witchy stuff from didn't call themselves a witch.

[KaliGiri5]

I hope this isn't too far off topic (sorry if it is.)

I'm just curious -- can you tell me what constitutes a strong Neptune or Pluto in one's natal chart?

I don't know enough about astrology to know what's supposed to be strong and what's not in a chart. But I do have a printout of my own natal chart and would like to see if I have this strong Neptune or Pluto feature.

And to bring this back to the topic, I think that a hereditary witch can be one of two things:

- a person who has natural talent at witchy things (magick, divination, healing, etc.) that they inherited through their family

- a person who is taught witchy things by blood relatives as a way to keep family knowledge and skills alive through the generations

A person could have one or the other of these, or both, and I guess it could be said they inherited their witchcraft from previous family members. However, a lot of people imply that those previous family members self-identified as witches when it seems that is often not the case. So on that side I can see saying it's not really hereditary witchcraft if the previous family members you got your witchy stuff from didn't call themselves a witch.

I agree with the hereditary..
sometimes it skips a generation..don't know why

astrology..
you are an Aquarius..where is your Neptune and Pluto?
what is your Ascendant.
basic info on neptune & pluto
http://www.geocities.com/rbltre/astro/neaspl.html

[raven grimassi]

There is an old, incorrect usage of the word "witch" (small "w") to refer to "witch doctors", etc. - in other words, tribal shamens not well understood by writers of the time. This is probably the basis for the school of thought (which has become quite widespread and served to muddy the waters even further, IMHO) that "Witchcraft" is just magic and not religion.

Yes, and this arose, I believe, from the view of early social anthropologists who defined "witchcraft" in terms of an African phenomena. I may be wrong, but I think anthropologists still call the African variety witchcaft, and have a different view of what we would call European Witchcraft. I think historians and folklorists recognize the European variety as witchcraft (no cap) and as something different from the African witch doctor.


The Witches in the old times incorporated religion, as did tribal shamens. Take the religious aspect out of magic and you have folk magic, not Witchcraft.

Well, it IS noteworthy that there is a longer history of religious themes/associations associated with Witches than there is an absent of it (although I cannot find an absence of it in any century including our own). Witches first appear in Western literature associated with various deities that they call upon (Hecate, Diana, Prosperpina, Priapus, Venus, etc.). This is consistent up into the Christian era. From there the material reflects Witches worshipping Satan (although there are many references to Diana in the Witchcraft trials of Italy). In the 19th century material arises claiming to indicate that Witchcraft was an ancient fertility religion. Gardner continues the theme into the 20th century, and other authors still carry it into the 21st century. So the case for Witchcraft having nothing to do with religious themes is something quite new by comparison.


A hereditary Witch may well be born with some ability, so that the older Witch in the family says "Ah! THIS is the one I am going to train!" but the abilities alone without the training do not make a Witch.

I very much agree with that. In my own case, none of my siblings practice the Ways.



There are certainly some witches who follow what they believe are based on ancient European fertility religions --- however they are not the only types of witches out there.

Yep


In pre-Gardnerian days it was common for people who self-described as witches to be the cunning men or wise women of the community who provided services such as healing (often through magickal or herbal techniques), divination, or spellwork. But if you examined their religious outlook they were definitely not following ancient European fertility religions.

I think that depends upon how far back you are referring to, and I think there are cultural varients to deal with as well. It should also be noted that it was never wise in the Christian era to admit to being anything other than a cunning person, folk healer or whatever. So a denial is not proof, nor is the absence of self-labelling as a Witch in public proof, of what one actually believed or practiced in the dead of night.


The important point for this thread though is that the magick outlined in the book clearly relies on the practitioner being a Christian and not a follower of some ancient European fertility religion.

I think that may be too broad a brush to paint with, Ben. Grimoires such as the Black Books of Elverum are not a testimony against the existence of non-Christian Witchcraft systems. They are instead their own separate genre. Clearly, Christianized systems seeped into folk magic systems, but that is something different from Witchcraft. It is a case of apples & oranges.


However, a lot of people imply that those previous family members self-identified as witches when it seems that is often not the case. So on that side I can see saying it's not really hereditary witchcraft if the previous family members you got your witchy stuff from didn't call themselves a witch.

I understand your point, but just as an FYI, the hereditaries that I know possess a teaching that if there is a Witch in your bloodline, it does not matter if the practice skipped a generation. Witch blood is Witch blood, so they say.

[Crystal Raven]

- a person who has natural talent at witchy things (magick, divination, healing, etc.) that they inherited through their family

- a person who is taught witchy things by blood relatives as a way to keep family knowledge and skills alive through the generations


so... by this defiinition (which I agree with) my eldest daughter would, in fact, be considered a hereditary and so may some of my other children, but that is yet to be seen.

[KaliGiri5]

Just wanted to add a link or 2 for any parents of or adult who may be a Crystal or Indigo and never heard of this.
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=uswa&c=passages&id=9810
http://www.starchildascension.org/starchild/adult.html

[stella01904]

Yes, and this arose, I believe, from the view of early social anthropologists who defined "witchcraft" in terms of an African phenomena. I may be wrong, but I think anthropologists still call the African variety witchcaft, and have a different view of what we would call European Witchcraft. I think historians and folklorists recognize the European variety as witchcraft (no cap) and as something different from the African witch doctor.
MM ~ Just wanted to add, where I live, all magic is colloquially called "Voodoo". If someone is not paid for all the hours he worked, he might get a Pancho Villa candle, offer Senor Villa a little wine and a little water, ask him to make things right, and refer to this as "Voodoo." It isn't, but the guy needed a word. :)
Referring to any and all magic as "witchcraft" may have come about the same way.
BB, Stella

[ancestral_lee]

Indigo and crystal children....

all i can say is ....

Mother.

of.

god.

<shakes head>

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, it IS noteworthy that there is a longer history of religious themes/associations associated with Witches than there is an absent of it (although I cannot find an absence of it in any century including our own). Witches first appear in Western literature associated with various deities that they call upon (Hecate, Diana, Prosperpina, Priapus, Venus, etc.). This is consistent up into the Christian era. From there the material reflects Witches worshipping Satan (although there are many references to Diana in the Witchcraft trials of Italy). In the 19th century material arises claiming to indicate that Witchcraft was an ancient fertility religion. Gardner continues the theme into the 20th century, and other authors still carry it into the 21st century. So the case for Witchcraft having nothing to do with religious themes is something quite new by comparison.

For those who aren't aware, Raven and I have discussed this all before in other threads here at MysticWicks. My short answer to this is that many things (including mundane practices such as cooking) are presented with all sorts of religious overtones in the past as religion permeated all life. That doesn't mean cooking (for example) is a religion though... and I am not convinced that witchcraft itself is a religion either.

Witchcraft does have lots to do with religious themes. There is no question that witchcraft is central to a variety of religious systems such as Wicca. However, witchcraft itself is not the religion -- just a practice that is often incorporated into (and is sometimes central) to a religion. But witchcraft can be practiced outside religion too (and has been in pre-Gardnerian times too.) To me that's the key point that refutes the claim that witchcraft = religion.




The important point for this thread though is that the magick outlined in the book clearly relies on the practitioner being a Christian and not a follower of some ancient European fertility religion.
I think that may be too broad a brush to paint with, Ben. Grimoires such as the Black Books of Elverum are not a testimony against the existence of non-Christian Witchcraft systems. They are instead their own separate genre. Clearly, Christianized systems seeped into folk magic systems, but that is something different from Witchcraft. It is a case of apples & oranges.

I brought up the Black Books of Elverum to refute the point that witchcraft is only Wicca. I was responding to the definition of witchcraft as exclusively followers of pre-Christian European fertility religions.

One other point I think might be worth discussing is the idea that denial of something is not proof of non-existence. Sure, people who were witches probably did deny it (and still do.) However without proof we can't say we have proof. Saying that someone would obviously deny they are a witch does not prove that they are, in fact, a witch.

I could say that my dear friend Raven is actually an extraterrestrial from the Tau Ceti system, sent here in human form to teach us stellar wisdom, but that he has to keep his cover by denying his true home. If he denies my claim does that mean I'm right because of course he'd deny it to keep his cover? It does not make logical sense.

We might want for various pre-Gardnerian historical witch figures to have been secretly keeping alive a pre-Christian religion, but without actual proof of this it's just a speculation. Their public denials don't prove our speculations.

[Nacken]

It seems that the term 'witch' is has changed in meaning a lot in the past 50 years or so. Gearald Gardener called himself a witch, but he probably offended members of the New Forest coven by characterizing them as witches. I don't think that they thought of themselves in those terms. Then they began to say that all wiccans are witches. It stayed there for awhile. But some of the followers of wicca didn't like being called witches, so it isn't entirely so. I know that some people are 'naturals.' with the predisposition for psychic abilities. That doesn't make them witches though. Sometimes this disposition runs in families, but it doesn't make them hereditary witches.
I have a friend who is a Gard HP, and was also raised by a grandfather who was involved in Pow Wow or Appalachian magic. Perhaps that makes him a hereditary witch. If your mom was a Gardenerian and you are trained as a Gard, it might make you a Gard but I don't know that it makes you a hereditary witch. I suppose it is semantics and that the meanings will change over time. It seems to be that the term witch means what you or a significant proportion of your fellows want it to mean. But 20 uyears from now the meaning may change again.

[raven grimassi]

I could say that my dear friend Raven is actually an extraterrestrial from the Tau Ceti system, sent here in human form to teach us stellar wisdom, but that he has to keep his cover by denying his true home. If he denies my claim does that mean I'm right because of course he'd deny it to keep his cover? It does not make logical sense.

Ben, I thought we had agreed to keep my true identity private. Gosh, who can you trust anymore these days. ;)

But, joking aside, I agree that denial is not proof, but I think it is something to take into consideration within the context of how safe it is not to deny something in a given setting.

On a related side note, I had an anthropologist once tell me that she cannot accept my label of Witch because it is subjective on my part. But then later in a conversation about Cunning Folk she stated that they were not Witches because they said they were not. So I guess saying you are something is not proof you are, but denying something is proof you are not. Okay, got it now. ;)



Witchcraft does have lots to do with religious themes. There is no question that witchcraft is central to a variety of religious systems such as Wicca. However, witchcraft itself is not the religion -- just a practice that is often incorporated into (and is sometimes central) to a religion. But witchcraft can be practiced outside religion too (and has been in pre-Gardnerian times too.) To me that's the key point that refutes the claim that witchcraft = religion.

And the alternative view is that Witchcraft has been practiced as a religion since the beginning, and that people later lifted its magical practices and isolated them for personal use. This then became a branch of Witchcraft akin to sorcery.


We might want for various pre-Gardnerian historical witch figures to have been secretly keeping alive a pre-Christian religion, but without actual proof of this it's just a speculation. Their public denials don't prove our speculations.

Agreed, but the counter argument against Witchcraft as a pre-Christian religion is speculation as well. There is no proof that it was not, but there is much that suggests it was. Take for example the fact that the ancient Greeks referred to Witchcraft as "illicit religion" - why did they even put it in a religious context? Why not call it an illicit practice or illicit beliefs, why a religion?

Why does a goddess figure keep popping up in Witchcraft well into the Renaissance period? For example, according to professor Eva Pocs (Between the Living and the Dead, Central European University Press, 1999) there are 36 documented cases in which a "fate goddess" appears in Hungarian witchcraft spanning 3 centuries of witch trials.

We find that in Italy, the mention of the goddess Diana periodically appears in trial transcripts dating from 1390-1647. According to historian Carlo Ginzburg (Ecstasies) in Germany the goddess Diana appears in witch trials and is called Unholde, or die selige Frawn (the beautiful woman). Other female deities show up in German witch trials transcripts as well, such as Fraw Berthe and Fraw Helt.

If Witchcraft was simply a magic tradition, then why so much connection with a goddess figure? Where are the isolated accounts of pre-Gardnerian Witchcraft that only mention sorcery without a goddess or a supernatural being present? That would be contrary data, but where is it in any impressive numbers?

Carlos Ginzburg (in part 2, chapter one, of his book Ecstasies: deciphering the Witches' Sabbat) brings to light many interesting pieces of information associated with Witchcraft and a goddess figure over the centuries. When not viewed directly as a goddess, this figure is called the Queen of the Fairies. This theme appears throughout much of continental Europe and parts of the British Isles. It is interesting to note that the Goddess and the Fairy Queen in these cases is often accompanied by a male entity appearing as a king, a stag or goat. In this we see the theme of the consort pair, a long-standing concept associated with Witchcraft.

Ginzburg presents a map on page 98, depicting regions he claims were associated with "female divinities" in Witchcraft trials. These regions include Scotland, France, North-Central Italy, and the Rhineland. Professor Eva Pocs, in her book Between the Living and the Dead, states that Hungarian witches are associated with Balkan goddess figures of Slavic or mixed origins, which appear in trial transcripts. Pocs also states that all goddess figures in Hungarian trial data carry chthonic features of fertility goddesses and are associated with spinning. She notes that Hungarian witch trials mention witches spinning, weaving, or carrying spindles.

The 16th century trial of Zuan delle Piatte, in Val di Fiemme, bears some interesting elements. Piatte confesses to going to a mountain near Norcia where he was "initiated into the society of witches." Ginzburg notes that Piatte claimed to have been brought before "the woman of the good game." This is not unlike the earlier trial of a woman named Sibillia in 1390. Sibillia confessed to paying homage to a female divinity named Madona Horiente. The Milanese Inquisitor Friar Beltramino recorded that Sibillia confessed to going to the "game of Diana." Maria Panzona, tried by the Inquisition in the 17th century, confessed to paying homage to a "majesty" bearing the title "The Abbess."

All this sounds like a bit more than mere sorcery to me, but I could be wrong.

[Ben Gruagach]

Good points, Raven.

I'm going to recommend though that people interested in discussing witchcraft as a religion, rather than the thread topic here of hereditary witchcraft, saunter over to this thread for witchcraft as a religion (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=112470).

[raven grimassi]

Good points, Raven.

I'm going to recommend though that people interested in discussing witchcraft as a religion, rather than the thread topic here of hereditary witchcraft, saunter over to this thread for witchcraft as a religion (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=112470).

Alrighty then .... :adidas: