Are there Prophets of God among us today?

[mmauren]

Are there Prophet's of God among us today? If there are, how do you know that a person claiming such a thing is truly a Prophet?

I produce a podcast titled Prophet of God - Discerning the Truth. In this podcast we will investigate one man who claims to be a Prophet. To see him on the street he looks like anyone of us. Except that he claims God speaks to him and through him. He claims God heals people through him.

This man has never been on TV or radio, nor does he belong to a church. He works a blue-collar job and lives a modest and unassuming life. He has an amazing knowledge of the Bible, he's articulate and it is truly compelling to listen to him.
Imagine if it's true. Imagine if this man is a real Prophet of God. It will make for an incredible podcast and it will be a wonderful gift and resource for all of us listening. So let's find out. In this program we will ask objective, straight forward questions. You will also have the opportunity to ask questions and make comments. The show is available for free, there is no advertising and no registration necessary.

http://www.prophetcast.com

[Vincent Verthaine]

Noticed this was your first post.
Nice little bit of cut n paste there.

Sorry if I sound a little skeptical,but this seems to me to be back door prostyletizing.

Wonder how many pagan forums you've hit already.

I would like to know what your opinions are about paganism,if it's alright to ask.



So the guy knows his bible.
Doesn't mean he's a prophet.
I'd like to see some scientific proof of his claims please.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Eh, I just report it and let the authorities decide.
Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[morningstar2651]

Welcome to Mystic Wicks.

I'm sorry, but I'm skeptical of people that have to advertize their achievements to gain recognition.

[LordHelmet]

It is odd that someones first post would be entirely cut and paste, no comments or anything. and then there's the 'you will be givin a chance to discuss... bla bla.' hmmmmm

[morningstar2651]

It is odd that someones first post would be entirely cut and paste, no comments or anything. and then there's the 'you will be givin a chance to discuss... bla bla.' hmmmmm
First and only post. It looks like they might have been lurking for a while after posting this though.

[LordHelmet]

why do you say they were lurking afterward? At any rate it's very odd if they did... very odd indeed.

[Xentor]

Admin mode

Although mmauren does ask us to visit their web site, there is no payment or registration involved. That makes their post not a spam post. However it seems to be in the wrong forum, thus this thread will be moved to Personal Websites.

Thusfar mmauren has not violated the MW rules. If you don't wish to read (or hear) about their message, you are free to ignore the link.

All of you, stop discussing someone's intentions. Use the report button if you find something suspicious, but do not publicly slander someone's reputation, especially if they are new to the community.

[LordHelmet]

your right. If it was an actual person we should be nice and say hello.

so.. Welcome to Mystic Wicks!

[ValD]

Interesting coincidence - on another forum, we've been discussing prophets and whether or not they are from God. The general consensus is that it doesn't matter how much of the Bible they know or how "godly" they appear to be; the important thing is - are their prophecies a) capable of being undeniably proven or disproven and b) accurate?

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, I've been wrong in the past, that's certainly true.

I think Jesus saw himself more as a prophet, really. And he said "by the fruits of their actions, ye shall know them." That seems like a pretty good indicator. If this guy is really a prophet, then in time, his actions will show it...

I dunno that I really believe in prophets per se, though...

Anyway...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[mol]

Interesting coincidence - on another forum, we've been discussing prophets and whether or not they are from God. The general consensus is that it doesn't matter how much of the Bible they know or how "godly" they appear to be; the important thing is - are their prophecies a) capable of being undeniably proven or disproven and b) accurate?
SOme folks say I am a prophet...

Eh? Eh?! =)

[BlackMagicalCat]

Are there Prophet's of God among us today? If there are, how do you know that a person claiming such a thing is truly a Prophet?

I produce a podcast titled Prophet of God - Discerning the Truth. In this podcast we will investigate one man who claims to be a Prophet. To see him on the street he looks like anyone of us. Except that he claims God speaks to him and through him. He claims God heals people through him.

This man has never been on TV or radio, nor does he belong to a church. He works a blue-collar job and lives a modest and unassuming life. He has an amazing knowledge of the Bible, he's articulate and it is truly compelling to listen to him.
Imagine if it's true. Imagine if this man is a real Prophet of God. It will make for an incredible podcast and it will be a wonderful gift and resource for all of us listening. So let's find out. In this program we will ask objective, straight forward questions. You will also have the opportunity to ask questions and make comments. The show is available for free, there is no advertising and no registration necessary.

http://www.prophetcast.com
Well,send your Prophet to pray for my beloved pagan friends here,if he isnt too busy I mean.You dont think he will mind do you?

There are many here who need energy,a touch from God,and a blessing from Goddess,and just an I love you,or a listening ear,or what ever can be done to lift them up.Because to serve God,is to serve others.

God is already here in case you dont see him,and he dwells among us already,with us common folk.

And he already speaks to us,in his own way.We really dont need to hear a prophet,do we?I want God to speak to me himself anyway.

If he lives in me,and he does,then I would think he is able to speak to me also.

I think if you take time to come here and serve,you will find God and Goddess is already among us.

[Dawa Lhamo]

SOme folks say I am a prophet...

Eh? Eh?! =)The answer to that lies in the question: Can one be a god and a prophet at the same time? ;)

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[morningstar2651]

The answer to that lies in the question: Can one be a god and a prophet at the same time? ;)

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo
The prophetic magic 8 ball says "Ask again later". 8O

Good scriptural knowledge doesn't mean good prophecies. Hopefully these predictions stay prediction and don't become postdiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postdiction).

[mmauren]

First of all let me clarify something. I am not a prophet. I am doing a podcast talking with and investigating a man that claims to be a prophet of God. I am simply a "radio guy" if you will, that found this man very interesting. I too am skeptical about things like this but just as I was about to blow it off I thought what if there's a possibility that he is real. Would any of us believe it if a true prophet or even Jesus Christ walked up to us. I'm guessing no. Anyway the point of the program isn't to make money or even promote this man necessarily. I don't give his last name. The point is to see if we can prove it absolutely on way or the other. If he isn't I will expose that and the show will end. If he's real then it could get interesting. I open it up to listeners to ask any and all questions. i won't allow him to side step anything.

I will tell you this though. Even though I am skeptical I have seen son unusual and unexplainable things since working with him. I saw him heal a man of a life long knee problem. This was a man he didn't know and I brought to him. On the fourth program I had him do a prayer to release listeners from the grips of fear. Within the prayer he talks in kind of a native American like language. This when he claims god is speaking through him. Upon playing this recording for two people that had never met him I was amazed that it had a profound, visable and positive effect on both of them. He has also picked up on times when an individual had a tramatic event in their life and he's always been right on. He then prays to heal them of that trauma.

Is it real? I'm not absolutely positive but it has been a little freaky to say the least. I just hope that I can determine his validity ultimately. I'm not looking to convert anyone into believers. I'm just looking for assistance in trying to figure this out. I'm looking for people that might have similar interests that might be attracted to such a show. The one poster said that you can judge a prophet by his fruits. That is absolutely right but you can't know that untill you listen to the show.

[BlackMagicalCat]

First of all let me clarify something. I am not a prophet. I am doing a podcast talking with and investigating a man that claims to be a prophet of God. I am simply a "radio guy" if you will, that found this man very interesting. I too am skeptical about things like this but just as I was about to blow it off I thought what if there's a possibility that he is real. Would any of us believe it if a true prophet or even Jesus Christ walked up to us. I'm guessing no. Anyway the point of the program isn't to make money or even promote this man necessarily. I don't give his last name. The point is to see if we can prove it absolutely on way or the other. If he isn't I will expose that and the show will end. If he's real then it could get interesting. I open it up to listeners to ask any and all questions. i won't allow him to side step anything.

I will tell you this though. Even though I am skeptical I have seen son unusual and unexplainable things since working with him. I saw him heal a man of a life long knee problem. This was a man he didn't know and I brought to him. On the fourth program I had him do a prayer to release listeners from the grips of fear. Within the prayer he talks in kind of a native American like language. This when he claims god is speaking through him. Upon playing this recording for two people that had never met him I was amazed that it had a profound, visable and positive effect on both of them. He has also picked up on times when an individual had a tramatic event in their life and he's always been right on. He then prays to heal them of that trauma.

Is it real? I'm not absolutely positive but it has been a little freaky to say the least. I just hope that I can determine his validity ultimately. I'm not looking to convert anyone into believers. I'm just looking for assistance in trying to figure this out. I'm looking for people that might have similar interests that might be attracted to such a show. The one poster said that you can judge a prophet by his fruits. That is absolutely right but you can't know that untill you listen to the show.
Well,What do I know,,,,,,,,,Okay,Im familiar with the bible,And I should be,Im a christian.

A tree is known by the fruit that it bears.

I look at a persons life,their actions speak so much louder than thier words do.

Invite this prophet to pray for the many needs in our help and hugs area.Okay,maybe he doesnt have the time too,but if he has time to answer our questions,then surely he has time to come here and pray for those in need.

Thatway,they will know themselves,when thier prayers are answered.

Why dont you pray in our helps and hugs area too.

[mmauren]

I don't think you quite get the point. This man is a simple, very humble guy. He doesn't see himself as special. He is simply a conduit for Gods word and good works. He works in a blue collar job and when he's not working or sleeping he is praying for people locally and around the country. It's not a matter of if he has time. He says that when he is praying for someone, that is when he feels the most alive.

He's not trying to convert anyone nor does it matter to him if you believe who he says he is. He simply wants to do what God directs him to do. Given that you are a Pagan you are predisposed to not believe in this sort of thing and that's fine. I just thought it was interesting and wanted to open it up to others that might find it interesting.

As far as praying for you he would be happy to. But I'm told that in order to receive the gifts of God you have to be open to it. Based on your sarcasm I'm guessing you're not. But if you really like him to do that I'm sure he will.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I don't think you quite get the point. This man is a simple, very humble guy. He doesn't see himself as special. He is simply a conduit for Gods word and good works. He works in a blue collar job and when he's not working or sleeping he is praying for people locally and around the country. It's not a matter of if he has time. He says that when he is praying for someone, that is when he feels the most alive.

He's not trying to convert anyone nor does it matter to him if you believe who he says he is. He simply wants to do what God directs him to do. Given that you are a Pagan you are predisposed to not believe in this sort of thing and that's fine. I just thought it was interesting and wanted to open it up to others that might find it interesting.

As far as praying for you he would be happy to. But I'm told that in order to receive the gifts of God you have to be open to it. Based on your sarcasm I'm guessing you're not. But if you really like him to do that I'm sure he will.Well,bless your heart,sorry If I seemed sarcastic.

Im not pagan either,Im a christian.Dont let my wiccan looking avatar fool ya.But you can understand how leary I am when a man is lifted up as a mighty prophet of God.God is no respector of persons,and praying for others is something everyone should do who loves God,its not something special,its our duty.

After we have done all we were commanded to do,we as christians are to say
That we are unprofitable servants,(the bible says this)and we just did what was our duty to do.
And you say he is a simple and humble man,yet you lift him up as though he were mighty,and supper anointed,when we are all supposed to be humble and simple.

As christians we are servants,and we serve.The bible says if you want to be great,you must be servant of all.there is a great prophet that we should be lifting up as believers,and that would be the Lord Jesus Christ.So after he done all the great prophesying,he just did his duty,and God is the one who is to be honored and lifted up as the great one.

We lift him up by the life we live,and by our service to others.God speaks to the lowly,as well as the prophet,what he tells your great prophet,he will tell the witch who lifts up her voice and calls on him.Because God is not a respector of persons.

You are welcome to post in my prayer space if you like,as is your prophet,and pray for any and all.Heck,start you own prayer space.But they dont allow proselatizing here.
My prayer space is in the alter of the ancients,Azzeenasman.And there are many others who need prayer too,so jump in and serve,and bless ,and love,and uplift,and comfort the hurting.

If the mighty prophet decides to show up here,PM me if you dont mind.

Bless you.:wave:

[morningstar2651]

I don't think you quite get the point. This man is a simple, very humble guy.Having a podcast dedicated to theirself does not strike me as something a humble person would consent to.

[BlackMagicalCat]

OKay,I listened to some of the mighty prophet,and this is what he did.

He blamed his own frieken mother for not having faith,and using her infirmity and sickness to manipulate others,so she died.Because she didnt have enough faith.

Your prophet sounds sick,tell him I said,we are all going to die,at some piont,and blaming your own mother is disrespectfull to the woman who gave you life,and brought your little knaked rearend into this world.

Honor thy father and thy mother,for this is the first commandment with promise-bible

[morningstar2651]

OKay,I listened to some of the mighty prophet,and this is what he did.

He blamed his own frieken mother for not having faith,and using her infirmity and sickness to manipulate others,so she died.Because she didnt have enough faith.

Your prophet sounds sick,tell him I said,we are all going to die,at some piont,and blaming your own mother is disrespectfull to the woman who gave you life,and brought your little knaked rearend into this world.

Honor thy father and thy mother,for this is the first commandment with promise-bibleI'm listening to the show right now. The host doesn't sound skeptical of Jerry at all.

I'm already catching scripture being used out of context in the first podcast. My verdict is in. He's a nut.

You might want to mention your show at ChristianForums (http://www.christianforums.com), it's the most active Christian discussion board in the world.

[mmauren]

Again, you can believe what you like but you really still don't get the point. I've tried to be as clear as I can. I'm curious though. You suggest he took a scripture out of context. Tell me which one and how he took it out of context. I'll question him on that and see how he responds.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Again, you can believe what you like but you really still don't get the point. I've tried to be as clear as I can. I'm curious though. You suggest he took a scripture out of context. Tell me which one and how he took it out of context. I'll question him on that and see how he responds.
Hey,I wonder if someone showed up at the great prophets church and said,Hey everyone,Come see the Great witch of Goddess.Sorta like,The great prophet of God,but instead ,The Great witch of Goddess.::lol: :lol:

Well,at least you are nice,you keep saying I missed your point though.

Enjoy your stay here and why not go introduce yourself in the introductions area.

[morningstar2651]

Again, you can believe what you like but you really still don't get the point. I've tried to be as clear as I can. I'm curious though. You suggest he took a scripture out of context. Tell me which one and how he took it out of context. I'll question him on that and see how he responds.


The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I hope this answers your questions from a scriptural perspective. The very first bit of scripture from the very first podcast talks about a single prophet, which, according to the Bible, is Jesus (or Muhammad if you're Islamic). Not Jerry...unless he claims to be the second coming or the Jewish messiah.

Sorry, but from what I've seen, this is a podcast with unproven stories (with a marked lack of evidence) treated as objective fact. Don't take it personally - I meet the claims of Pagans with the same level of skepticism. I've dealt with my share of self-proclaimed prophets.

[mol]

ADMIN MODE

Moved to website analysis.

All hail the incredible, moving, pulsating thread.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Something else the mighty prophet said that seems weird,He said demons speak to him and call him Gods cop.

I do beleive in the spirit world,and in demons and angels,it sounds a bit lofty
to think that all the demonic authoritys stand back in awe at the site of the mighty prophet.

And he seems to make it a big deal that within the spirit world he is well known
and respected and feared.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Okay,my last post here.I also noticed that about 90 percent of the podcast,is dedicated to convincing you that the man is a mighty prophet of God.

In my humble opinion,this guy is really into himself.His mission in life sounds like it is getting together a following of people who call him the great prophet.
I didnt hear anything about Christ.

We didnt just fall off the turnip wagon,oh great one.Stay here awhile and you will soon be singing the praises of the Goddess who will humble you.

See ya:wave:

[Shanti]

I dont have time to listen to it all but I did listen to sections of the different recordings.

The thing I wonder is:
it seems that only two people are on these recordings and basically we are to take what Jerry says as truth?
LMAO!! This is the net. Anyone can pretend to be whatever their little heart desires!

Sorry but if someone said they were any kind of messenger from any god, I would not give it second thought, unless they could move my spirit on a real, vrs..tv, net, or any other modern way, level.

This is 2006 and there are people who take advantage of and screw with each others heads everyday!

Any bozo can just say I did this and that and know this and that!

Does the dude have references?

Oh and as for people ignoring a true prophet of god? Well I think god is smart enough to know we live in an untrust worthy period of social time and I think god would know exactly how to get everyones undivided attention.
God would know how to deal with todays mindsets.
If god didnt know how to help his prophet make it clear who he/she is,
then god would be stupid and I dont think you want to assume that god is too stupid to be able to find away to wake his children up.

If Jerry really believes he is a prophet of god..hey great.
He should be very comforted in knowing he was chosen. Congrats Jerry. :)

[Little Billy]

Something else the mighty prophet said that seems weird,He said demons speak to him and call him Gods cop.


Does he eat holy donuts?

[morningstar2651]

The prophet might want to get his mental health evaluated, as should anyone who is devoutly religious. My last examination was in 2004 -- I'm sane.

[morningstar2651]

Something else the mighty prophet said that seems weird,He said demons speak to him and call him Gods cop.This reminds me of the woman that claimed to be "God's doctor (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/brown.html)".

[mmauren]

Thank you for your input. That's what I'm looking for.
Mike

[BlackMagicalCat]

Thank you for your input. That's what I'm looking for.
Mike
So you are looking for something?Why are you looking for input,if you dont mind answering?

John

[MGD]

The Real Prophets Are The Homeless People Talking To Themselves On The Corner And Swilling Wild Turkey.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

The Real Prophets Are The Homeless People Talking To Themselves On The Corner And Swilling Wild Turkey.

I do not know if you know this, but ever word is not necessarily the beginning of a new sentence. Therefore you do not need to capitalize every word. :spaceman:

[LordHelmet]

So you are looking for something?Why are you looking for input,if you dont mind answering?

John

Hey christian boy, be nice to your friend, give him a break, he's not attacking you. you should try to respect m&m's belief that the nut's a prophet(if he does actualy believe that). Maybe m&m really does want to hear the other side too. Would Jesus be sarcastic to him?

[LordHelmet]

You to there morning star

[Little Billy]

The Real Prophets Are The Homeless People Talking To Themselves On The Corner And Swilling Wild Turkey.

And the people bowed and prayed, To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning, In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls." and whisper'd in the sounds of silence.

[Cain]

The Real Prophets Are The Homeless People Talking To Themselves On The Corner And Swilling Wild Turkey.

How many times do I have to say this: you are not a prophet of God and if you took your meds the voices would stop. Get some help damnit...

[mmauren]

I've answered that several times. I'm trying to discern the truth about this man. I'm not a theologian or an expert in anyway about God. I believe in God and have my own experiences in my lifetime that validate my belief. When a man tells me he's a prophet of God of course I don't believe it off hand. Anymore then I would take for granted that anyone on a message board had the ultimate answer or even knew what they're talking about. I find it truly amusing that you all make statements of fact as if you have some expertise. All based on postings by me, an acknowldged neophyte regarding the Bible and theology in general. Or listening to shor segments of the show.

I honestly don't care if you believe he's a prophet or not. I'm not trying to gain him "followers" and the fact is he's said this has been happening to him for 40 years. I did some research and I found that he's never done anything to exploit or profit from what he does. So is this all a master plan 40 years in the making? Or maybe he's crazy...that's why I talk and question him. He may be a lot of things but he's not crazy. It isn't hard to uncover that with the right questions. I've taken him to clergy and people that know a lot more then I do and after meeting him each one of them told me that they believed he is what he says. Still that doesn't convince me absolutely. The Bible says test a prophet and that's what I'm trying to do. You may agree or disagree but that's not what matters to me.

I told you before when I met this man I absolutely didn't believe anything he said. But then I thought what if there was remote possibility that it were true. I walk away from it and I'll never what I missed. I believe I owe it my self and God to do what the Bible says and again, "test the prophet."

The point you all miss is that you believe that I'm trying to exhault this man. that is not the case he is just a guy. More importantly he doesn't see himself as special. What's special is maybe just maybe God speaks and heals through him. It's God that's special. It's God that's important. I know that and this man acknowledges it too.

You want proof? Well that's what I'm trying to find. But not to convince you. I'm looking for proof to me. Once I have it one way or another then I can see what should be done with it. And when I came to this board I was looking for help from people that maybe knew more then I do. Instead I get flip comments and insults. So you haven't been much help. But that's fine. There's a difference between you an I. You think you have all the answers. It comes out of your mouth and it must be fact. That's arrogance and you're fooling yourself. I readily admit that I don't know. But I'm determined to find out and I'll do what ever it takes. If you want to fault me or make fun of me or insult me for that, feel free. It really doesnt concern me.

One last thing regarding your need for proof. As experts that you are I'm surprised that you don't know that when it comes God the operative word is not proof. The word is faith.

[Little Billy]

How many times do I have to say this: you are not a prophet of God and if you took your meds the voices would stop. Get some help damnit...

How do YOU know? Maybe he IS a prophet of God.

Hell, I wouldn't put half the crap MGD claims God says above the big guy.

[Little Billy]

I've answered that several times. I'm trying to discern the truth about this man. I'm not a theologian or an expert in anyway about God. I believe in God and have my own experiences in my lifetime that validate my belief. When a man tells me he's a prophet of God of course I don't believe it off hand.

Wasn't Jesus supposed to be the last one? I was under the impression that the age of prophets was over.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

I've answered that several times. I'm trying to discern the truth about this man. I'm not a theologian or an expert in anyway about God. I believe in God and have my own experiences in my lifetime that validate my belief. When a man tells me he's a prophet of God of course I don't believe it off hand. Anymore then I would take for granted that anyone on a message board had the ultimate answer or even knew what they're talking about. I find it truly amusing that you all make statements of fact as if you have some expertise. All based on postings by me, an acknowldged neophyte regarding the Bible and theology in general. Or listening to shor segments of the show.

I honestly don't care if you believe he's a prophet or not. I'm not trying to gain him "followers" and the fact is he's said this has been happening to him for 40 years. I did some research and I found that he's never done anything to exploit or profit from what he does. So is this all a master plan 40 years in the making? Or maybe he's crazy...that's why I talk and question him. He may be a lot of things but he's not crazy. It isn't hard to uncover that with the right questions. I've taken him to clergy and people that know a lot more then I do and after meeting him each one of them told me that they believed he is what he says. Still that doesn't convince me absolutely. The Bible says test a prophet and that's what I'm trying to do. You may agree or disagree but that's not what matters to me.

I told you before when I met this man I absolutely didn't believe anything he said. But then I thought what if there was remote possibility that it were true. I walk away from it and I'll never what I missed. I believe I owe it my self and God to do what the Bible says and again, "test the prophet."

The point you all miss is that you believe that I'm trying to exhault this man. that is not the case he is just a guy. More importantly he doesn't see himself as special. What's special is maybe just maybe God speaks and heals through him. It's God that's special. It's God that's important. I know that and this man acknowledges it too.

You want proof? Well that's what I'm trying to find. But not to convince you. I'm looking for proof to me. Once I have it one way or another then I can see what should be done with it. And when I came to this board I was looking for help from people that maybe knew more then I do. Instead I get flip comments and insults. So you haven't been much help. But that's fine. There's a difference between you an I. You think you have all the answers. It comes out of your mouth and it must be fact. That's arrogance and you're fooling yourself. I readily admit that I don't know. But I'm determined to find out and I'll do what ever it takes. If you want to fault me or make fun of me or insult me for that, feel free. It really doesnt concern me.

One last thing regarding your need for proof. As experts that you are I'm surprised that you don't know that when it comes God the operative word is not proof. The word is faith.
Is it just me or does this seem a bit hypocritical. Maybe i'll leave it up to someone apparently more "intelligent" than me. What gives you the audacity to assume you are more intelligent about the Bible or Theology in general than others (anywhere or here)? What was you purpose in coming here if you cannot take the "answers" that you sought from us?

[MGD]

How Dare Yuo Question Our Mighty Prophets!

[semi]

Mauren, maybe investigate this guy from a new direction. The man says he's a Prophet of God. Skip that part because it can't be proven or disproved in any way. Look at what the man does. He heals. Many people can heal. Shamans have done it for thousands of years. You don't have to be a prophet to do this. All you need to be is someone who has learned how to heal. The chanting that you mention is also sometimes part of the healing process, whether the chanting is in a language you can understand or just in vocalizations. His ability to learn about past events that have occurred to people as well speaking with "demons" are also skills that many people can acquire, as many shamans have. Religion never has to enter into the picture to acquire these skills. They can be gained systematically and rationally, almost as a science, with no faith in deity needed.

So is he a Prophet of God? You'll probably never know. Does he have some shamanic skills? He probably does. Many people do. No big deal.

[mmauren]

Well at least I get one legitimate response. Semicivilzedman you make some good points. This is something I can use and I will. Thank you. As far as healing and no big deal. Well maybe not. This is the first person that I've met that claims he can do this. As I said I readily admit that I don't know I'm trying to learn. But whether it's a big deal or not where does the healing come from? Thin air? From humans? I've got to think (uninformed as I am) that regardless of what name you attache to a person it has to come from God. Am I wrong about that?

[mmauren]

Akhkharu Asgard read my statement again. I never said I was smarter then you. All I said was that I admit I don't know much. I'm just wondering if you know as much as you act like you do?

[semi]

I don't think metaphysical skills like healing can be defined solely within the parameters of one religion. So are these skills a gift from God? I'd say no, since religion has no bearing at all on who may learn these skills. Everyone may learn these skills. We all have the potential to be shamans. I believe we'd still have the potential for this if no religion had ever been created.

The skills come from many sources. Traditional shamans work with spirit allies, take dream journeys, and so on. People of various religions often attribute these skills to a connection with their deities. But where do these spirit allies and deities come from, where do they exist? In the mind? In the web of energy that holds existence together? No one knows. People have theories, but no one knows. Their faith may convince them that they know, but no one can prove anything.

So I don't know where the skills come from. I have my theories, but nothing can be proven. The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter where the skills come from. Acquiring the skills and the knowledge and wisdom that tends to come with the acquisition of these skills is more important, in my opinion, than where the skills come from. If your guy says that his skills come from God, ok, that's his theory and/or belief. That doesn't mean he's right, but you also can't prove he's wrong. I say talk to the guy, get what you need out of the conversation, then form your own theories. You won't be right or wrong.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Hey christian boy, be nice to your friend, give him a break, he's not attacking you. you should try to respect m&m's belief that the nut's a prophet(if he does actualy believe that). Maybe m&m really does want to hear the other side too. Would Jesus be sarcastic to him?

Im not a boy,im 47,and I am showing him respect,Im asking questions if thats okay with you,dark toddler

[BlackMagicalCat]

I did Pm the man,and smell a rat,I have seen many of these so called prophets face to face,and have even worked with them in person.Like someone else said here,others can do the same.

And I was wondering why MM is hiding and not being open,perhaps he has a good reason,who knows.Im wondering what his intentions are,no big deal,im nobody here anyway,Im just curious.

I say bring the prophet here.MM said he would ask him to pray for us,so he must have access to the prophet,so let the prophet speak for himself.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I've answered that several times. I'm trying to discern the truth about this man. I'm not a theologian or an expert in anyway about God. I believe in God and have my own experiences in my lifetime that validate my belief. When a man tells me he's a prophet of God of course I don't believe it off hand. Anymore then I would take for granted that anyone on a message board had the ultimate answer or even knew what they're talking about. I find it truly amusing that you all make statements of fact as if you have some expertise. All based on postings by me, an acknowldged neophyte regarding the Bible and theology in general. Or listening to shor segments of the show.

I honestly don't care if you believe he's a prophet or not. I'm not trying to gain him "followers" and the fact is he's said this has been happening to him for 40 years. I did some research and I found that he's never done anything to exploit or profit from what he does. So is this all a master plan 40 years in the making? Or maybe he's crazy...that's why I talk and question him. He may be a lot of things but he's not crazy. It isn't hard to uncover that with the right questions. I've taken him to clergy and people that know a lot more then I do and after meeting him each one of them told me that they believed he is what he says. Still that doesn't convince me absolutely. The Bible says test a prophet and that's what I'm trying to do. You may agree or disagree but that's not what matters to me.

I told you before when I met this man I absolutely didn't believe anything he said. But then I thought what if there was remote possibility that it were true. I walk away from it and I'll never what I missed. I believe I owe it my self and God to do what the Bible says and again, "test the prophet."

The point you all miss is that you believe that I'm trying to exhault this man. that is not the case he is just a guy. More importantly he doesn't see himself as special. What's special is maybe just maybe God speaks and heals through him. It's God that's special. It's God that's important. I know that and this man acknowledges it too.

You want proof? Well that's what I'm trying to find. But not to convince you. I'm looking for proof to me. Once I have it one way or another then I can see what should be done with it. And when I came to this board I was looking for help from people that maybe knew more then I do. Instead I get flip comments and insults. So you haven't been much help. But that's fine. There's a difference between you an I. You think you have all the answers. It comes out of your mouth and it must be fact. That's arrogance and you're fooling yourself. I readily admit that I don't know. But I'm determined to find out and I'll do what ever it takes. If you want to fault me or make fun of me or insult me for that, feel free. It really doesnt concern me.

One last thing regarding your need for proof. As experts that you are I'm surprised that you don't know that when it comes God the operative word is not proof. The word is faith.
Well,if you dont care weather or not we believe in this man,why all the trouble?You already sound sold on this guy.Why come to a pagan board to find out if this guy is a man of God?

Why ask a witch if this man is a prophet?Something isnt adding up.

You want my opinion,this man has lifted himself higher than he really is.
He lacks common sense.I based my judgment on the fact he blamed his own mother for dieing,because she didnt have enough faith to be healed.

But most of us know that we are all going to die.It is also a bit selfish to blame your own mother for not having faith(because he probably prayed for her to get healed,and had to have a reason for her not being healed,so he blamed her,instead of himself)to me this is extreemly selfish and disrespectfull to the woman who birthed you.

Im willing to bet he blames others for unanswered prayers,that gives him a cover ,to support his beliefs,and puts the blame on another.

And that is what I based my judgment on.

[mmauren]

I asked you how I was hiding and dishonest. I PM'd you back and you never answered. Tell you what I will put any information up about myself that you are willing to put up about yourself. You're not hiding are you.

I'll give you some freebies though. I'm 45, male, married, have two kids, live in a suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul and I work in radio.

Your turn Azzy.


Secondly you weren't listening to the show very well. His mother is not dead. She is still alive. So how can he "blame" her for dying. If you want to debate you really need to know what you're talking about.

Why come to a Pagan board? Why not? I'm not looking for people to agree necessarily. I want some insight from all angles. Unfortunately so far the only person whose made any cogent points was semicivilizedman. He doesn't have to believe or agree. But at least he shows some intelligence and maturity.

I am not a Pagan and I don't buy into the things you believe in. I can be as sarcastic and confrotational as anyone. But I am on your site and regardless of what I believe or how foreign I think your beliefs are I'm going to try to be respectful of you and your faith. But if this thread is representative of a Pagan or in the case of Azzy, a Christian it's disappointing. The worlds full of people claiming faith and love but they don't live it and that would be my perception of some of you.

[semi]

Cogent points?! Intelligence?! Maturity?! You're kind of slagging my reputation there, Mauren. Watch it.

People here, like in many other places offline, are very passionate. They aggressively defend what they believe in. Some are willing to pick a fight for it. I would, too. But arguing online, or anywhere, won't really solve much. So maybe people who are agitated by this thread can just walk away from it. Staying in here and arguing won't change anything.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Akhkharu Asgard read my statement again. I never said I was smarter then you. All I said was that I admit I don't know much. I'm just wondering if you know as much as you act like you do?

I did not know I was acting like anything. My previous comment on this post was the first thing I posted on this thing. I don't know everything about everything, especially theology and biblical stuff. But growing up as a Christian and going off on my own as a Christian, studying Biblical texts, I know enough to be able to talk comfortably about it. But I don't want to get into an argument with you. This is a very interesting topic (and whether anyone else does or not), I rather like that you showed up here. I do not necessarily agree with the prophet but you did present a very interesting topic for discussion. I am enjoying reading it, so I will go back to shutting up and continuing with the read.

[mmauren]

Akhkharu Asgard please don't go silent. You're right. I shouldn't of lumped you in with my comments. I appreciate your interest and comments.

Semicivilized I'm sorry if I sullied your reputation.

I'm glad that this thread caused people to think and interact. That's far more important then trying to make anyone believe. I'm just looking for points of veiw so I can use that in this investigation if you will.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Akhkharu Asgard please don't go silent. You're right. I shouldn't of lumped you in with my comments. I appreciate your interest and comments.

Semicivilized I'm sorry if I sullied your reputation.

I'm glad that this thread caused people to think and interact. That's far more important then trying to make anyone believe. I'm just looking for points of veiw so I can use that in this investigation if you will.

Well thanks for that. However I will continue my silence for now. I have class in a few hours and need by beauty sleep. But perhaps tomorrow I will actually take part in this thread. Assuming it is still here.

[LordHelmet]

M&M, about the healing thing...

I suggest you make another subsidary thread in the healing/reiki part of the forum. Many people there actively study healing in many forms outside the traditional and they would be able to tell you a lot more about it. Reiki involves manipulateing life force and giving healing spiritual energies to those who need healing. It can be highly effective.

most of the time there isn't this much bickering on Mystic Wicks, we're usualy very kind and helpful of each other.

could you make a list of the major things he does or has done, pertenant to whether or not he's a prophet.

Muhamad was 'The Last Prophet' in Islam, who consider Jesus to have been a prophet. The bible never calls Jesus a prophet, and never says whether theres to be any more or not. Mormans consider Joseph Smith to have been a prophet. There's also the possibility he could be a prophet of God and the bible's wrong about God, or he could be a prophet of A god. I think to invisigate this it's best to take off any blinders saying he could only be a prophet according to modern common view or not at all.

[mmauren]

You make some excellent points. I willl look into all those things. Thank you.

[morningstar2651]

Sure, ignore the mention of the schitzophrenic doctor with demonic delusions that abused her patients, lost her license, and wrote a book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0883683237/qid=1136995454/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9076659-3208812?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) how it's Satan's fault. Her claims from during her medical practice sound oddly like the claims of the alleged prophet. Seriously - he should talk to a psychiatrist to make sure he's not a peanut. Perhaps get ahold of James Randi (http://www.randi.org/) and ask him to investigate as well.

A peanut with power over people can be dangerous:


8. That on numerous occasions Respondent has knowingly and intentionally misdiagnosed her patients including, but not limited to her patients by the name of Edna Elaine Moses, a/k/a Elaine Moses, a/k/a Elaine Bailey (hereinafter collectively referred to as "Edna Elaine Moses"), Claudia Moses, Lucia Lively, Luccinda Sisson, Kelly Sisson, Cheryl Maynard, and two (2) patients identified only as "V.B." and "K.W."
9. That the "misdiagnosis" referred to in "Finding of Fact" no. 8 above, included misdiagnosing alleged leukemia, various blood disorders, gall bladder disease, brain tumors and various other ailments and conditions all of with Respondent stated were allegedly caused by demons, devils and other evil spirits.
10. That in fact, the patients referred to in "Finding of Fact" no. 8 above, were not suffering from the diagnosed ailments and conditions referred to in "Finding of Fact" no. 9, above.
11. That on numerous occasions Respondent stated to her patients that she was "chosen" by God as the only physician able to diagnose certain ailments and conditions which other physicians could not because the other physicians, including physicians from Ball Memorial Hospital in Muncie, Indiana and St. John's Medical Center in Anderson, Indiana were, in fact, "demons, devils and other evil spirits" themselves.
12. That Respondent was inappropriately treating Edna Elaine Moses' purported leukemia with massive doses of Demerol and Phenobarbital to the point where the patient would tolerate 600 to 900 cc injections of Demerol, a fatal dose of which is normally in the 150 to 200 cc range, and up to three times the recommended therapeutic dose of Phenobarbital.
13. That Respondent gave Claudia Moses, a 15 year old mentally impaired daughter of Edna Elaine Moses who possesses the intellectual age of an 8 year old, numerous injections of Demerol for alleged "nausea" and allowed Claudia to administer injections of Demerol to herself.
14. That on numerous occasions the Respondent would supply her patients with excessive amounts of legend drugs and/or controlled substances without any explanation, instruction, or appropriate charting.
15. That numerous patients of the Respondent had to undergo detoxification and withdrawal from the excessive amounts legend drugs and/or controlled substances which the Respondent was prescribing and/or administering without valid therapeutic reasons.
16. That while Edna Elaine Moses was under the immediate care and treatment of Respondent, the family of Edna Elaine Moses had to have Edna admitted to St. Vincent's Hospital Emergency Room in Indianapolis, Indiana and subsequently committed to LaRue Carter Hospital in Indianapolis, Indiana for detoxification from the excessive amounts of controlled substances which Respondent was prescribing and administering for Edna's purported leukemia and for treatment of the multiple infections, including infections of her urinary tract and infections of various catheters including a "Hickman" catheter used to facilitate the administration of intravenous medications and also for treatment of externally caused lesions.
17. That Respondent failed to maintain and keep adequate records or charts on her patients and in several instances failed to maintain any charts or records at all.
18. That on numerous occasions Respondent falsified patient charts and hospital records and misled other health professionals regarding her patients condition including, but not limited to statements made by Respondent at Ball Memorial Hospital in Muncie, Indiana, St. John's Medical Center in Anderson, Indiana, Indiana and Barrien General Hospital in Barrien Springs, Michigan, all to the detriment of her patients' well-being.
19. That on numerous occasions Respondent misrepresented and falsified prescriptions which were presented to several pharmacies for controlled substances including, but not limited to March Pharmacy located at 2808 Nichol Aveneu, Anderson, Indiana, Gene Maddy Drugs located at 3050 Meridian Street, Anderson, Indiana and Hollon's Drugs located at 2101 Jackson, Anderson, Indiana by writing on the face of the prescriptions that the prescriptions for controlled substances for the patient by the name of Edna Moses, Elaine Moses, and/or Elaine Bailey were for "malignancy" when in fact, there was no therapeutic reason for Respondent to be prescribing Demerol or any other contolled (sic) substance as the alleged patient was, in fact, suffering from no malignacy.
20. That Respondent has stated on numerous occasions that she possessed the capability of "sharing" her patients' illnesses in fighting the demons, devils and other evil spirits that were allegedly causing the various ailments and conditions and that she was, in fact, "sharing" Edna Elaine Moses' leukemia.
21. That without a valid therapeutic reason the Respondent self-diagnosed and self-medicated herself with non-therapeutic amounts of Demerol for her "leukemia" that she was allegedly "sharing" with Edna Elaine Moses and also for treatment of an alleged malignant brain tumor and myasthenia gravis.
22. That Respondent has been witnessed routinely receiving non-therapeutic doses of at least 3 cc's of Demerol on an hourly basis by injecting herself in the backs of her hands, the inside of her thighs, or wherever she could locate a suitable vein.
23. That the board appointed psychiatrist who examined the Respondent and reviewed statements made by her patients diagnosed the Respondent as suffering from acute personality disorders including demonic delusions and/or paranoid schizophrenia."

[BlackMagicalCat]

I asked you how I was hiding and dishonest. I PM'd you back and you never answered. Tell you what I will put any information up about myself that you are willing to put up about yourself. You're not hiding are you.

I'll give you some freebies though. I'm 45, male, married, have two kids, live in a suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul and I work in radio.

Your turn Azzy.


Secondly you weren't listening to the show very well. His mother is not dead. She is still alive. So how can he "blame" her for dying. If you want to debate you really need to know what you're talking about.

Why come to a Pagan board? Why not? I'm not looking for people to agree necessarily. I want some insight from all angles. Unfortunately so far the only person whose made any cogent points was semicivilizedman. He doesn't have to believe or agree. But at least he shows some intelligence and maturity.

I am not a Pagan and I don't buy into the things you believe in. I can be as sarcastic and confrotational as anyone. But I am on your site and regardless of what I believe or how foreign I think your beliefs are I'm going to try to be respectful of you and your faith. But if this thread is representative of a Pagan or in the case of Azzy, a Christian it's disappointing. The worlds full of people claiming faith and love but they don't live it and that would be my perception of some of you.
Hey,Im sorry I missed all this,I thought she died?Perhaps I heard it wrong.


Glad you are here,and welcome.

Sorry Im disapointing you.

And I do love you,with the love God placed in my heart for all.

Im 47 and live in Rock Hill SC,and I live with my lovely magical cat Tabitha,and a recent stray who befreinded me ,who I named Samantha.

I have a 15 year old,and my handsome pictures are in my photo albums here on MW.

And I have had personal experience with faith healers,and so called prophets,and I have worked with them.

Sorry If I was a little harsh,take care friend,enjoy MW

[Faeawyn]

Firstly, I apologize if my MW family sounds like a bickering bunch of siblings home for Thanksgiving.....
I'd be very interested if you could list some of his claims for me. I didn't listen to him and would just find it easier if you listed them here so I could read them. You say he claims to be able to heal....I agree with the others. Thats not entirely unusual. Reiki healers believe that they are able to tap in to a universal energy that is the make up of all things...and by tapping in to that energy flow, we can adjust the energy flow in someone who is ill and correct it. Hospice nurses also take courses in "healing touch" that enables them to aid in helping terminally ill patience and ease their pain.
If the bible claims there will be only 1 prophet...then I guess if you believe in the writings of the bible, then you believe it to be true. I am a Christian who does not believe in the "stories" of the bible, but I do believe in Jesus and in God. I believe that his teachings and life were distorted by "men" in order to maintain a level of power.
What does Jerry want to tell us exactly? What is his message?

[BlackMagicalCat]

And tell your prophet I said,Jenna needs prayer,and he is welcome to come and pray for her .She is a pagan child of a dear friend who is epileptic (did I spell that right?)and is in the hospital.

He doesnt mind praying for pagan children does he?Or does the child first need to be converted to be able to recieve her healing?

The thread is here,(energy Request)along with many others who need prayers.

[LordHelmet]

Prophet, dictionary.com

A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
A predictor; a soothsayer.
The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

According to this I could be a Prophet, although I haven't done any evocations or communicated with God or any other dietys, I do think I have a great moral insight (not everybody else is going to agree but they didn't in the bible either). I use Tarot to gain insight into many things.

Many people on this sight have as much if not much more reason to call themselves prophets. An order for these claims to have any meaning I think we need to get at the heart of what seperated biblical prophets like Elija and Moses, and Samual, from all of us practicing magicians and witches, as well as the witches/witchdoctors and divinators of so many other cultures.

I see a trend with biblical prophets that I don't with all these others;
Moses fell before the burning bush, the bush (God) told him to get up.
Isiah was frightened at the sight of angels worshiping God, and angel touched a hot coal to his lips so that he could speak.
and here's the important part...
God said "let my people go"
God sent plauges upon egypt
God Hardened Pharohs heart
God seperated the red sea
God sent lightning to write the ten comandments.
God Sent fire from the sky to burn Elijas offering.
God made an Undead army from the bones of an old battlefeild
The prophets speak what God wants to say to us, they're messangers, then God opens up the earth to swallow up groups of people he doesn't like.
"The Lord gives, and he takes away. All hail the lord!" -Job

[Ptah]

I'm glad that this thread caused people to think and interact. That's far more important then trying to make anyone believe. I'm just looking for points of veiw so I can use that in this investigation if you will.

Isn't a connection to the divine within the scope of all of us? A spiritual path is one walked hand in hand with the divine and needs no intercession. I am always wary of anyone telling me what the divine is saying to me. Afterall, I am here, listening and if I hear I will most assuredly act. More assuredly than if a prophet told me the same. I don't doubt this man has a spiritual walk but anyone can have. Its his authority you should question, it appears to me his only authority is the Bible. To be honest, that authority is rejected by many pagans. I know it has no relevance to my life. Some of us feel that diety speaks through all things, not just one book. His prophesy (ministry) is taught in every pentecostal seminary. I have heard every one of his enlightenments in previous sermons from the pulpit. There's nothing original here.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Well,I guess Im going to have to go back and look for the place where he was talking about his mother,where he said she was manipulative and didnt recieve her healing,I could have sworn he said she died too.

My problem with someone declaring themselves to be great is this,this place is full of great people,who far outshine your prophet.Because allthough they are not well known,and they dont have disciples running around telling everyone how great they are,they nevertheless are great to me,because of the way they serve and bless others in love.And because of the kindness they show,and the way they help those in need.even though many here dont have much,they scrape together what they can to help a fellow member in thier trouble.And they never get much praise for it,and dont care too.

No they are not perfect.

So,I will call your prophet great,when he shows up to offer prayers and serves those here,but there is no money to be made for him,just lots of karma,and thankyous,and bless you,s,and the satisfaction of knowing someone was blessed and uplifted by his service.

So Im not buying his greatness.


Jesus said,he that will be great,let him become as one that serves.

Show me that he is a great healer,instead of trying to convince me with an endless muddle of nonstop words.I am not interested in muddling through all his preaching to find out if he is great.Let his own God and his own prayers speak for himself.Let his service speak for him.

I know from personal experience ,it isnt hard to open a revival,and start a prayer line,and to have people start falling down under the ,,Ahem,,anointing
of the mighty prophet,and then jump up and run around claiming they were healed.

And then a few sundays latter,the same person is doing the same thing.
There are people who do nothing but folllow prophets around wanting to be prophesied too.These same people never show up on sundays to serve.

[mmauren]

Jerry claims that God talks to him and directs him to people that need Gods healing. Jerry also says that God speaks through him and heals through him. You can hear an example of a healing prayer on show #4 at www.prophetcast.com.

As far as praying for Jenna, I'm sure he would be happy to do that. I'll talk to him tomorrow. Jerry doesn't subscribe to a specific religion. We are all children of God.

If you listen to the shows you'll find that Jerry acknowledges that God is within all of us and we all have the power to receive God's gifts through prayer.

[mmauren]

I don't claim that Jerry is "great" and neither does he. In fact he has said many times and I've said it here too, he's a simple man that is no better then anyone else. Anything "great" (as far as healings) that happens through him should be attributed to God and only God. Jerry doesn't heal anyone. God does!

As I said, I will talk to him about Jenna. We'll see what happens and if there is anyone else that is need let me know and I will ask him to pray for you. Let's see what happens.

[mmauren]

Oh and I will see about him coming here. I'm sure he would be happy to do that.

[mmauren]

Azzy with all do respect you sound very synical and even a bit angry. Don't you realize that negativity breeds negativity and it's not good for you?

[BlackMagicalCat]

Jerry claims that God talks to him and directs him to people that need Gods healing. Jerry also says that God speaks through him and heals through him. You can hear an example of a healing prayer on show #4 at www.prophetcast.com.

As far as praying for Jenna, I'm sure he would be happy to do that. I'll talk to him tomorrow. Jerry doesn't subscribe to a specific religion. We are all children of God.

If you listen to the shows you'll find that Jerry acknowledges that God is within all of us and we all have the power to receive God's gifts through prayer.
Well,I tried to listen,but it sounded like an info-mercial,sorry.(I just couldnt sit through it)But thats just me.

What God is he serving?Does he heal in the name of Jesus Christ?
Just wondering.You sound like his spokes person.I dont mean to sound contrary,Im just not much for someone who lifts themselves up,and God speaks through a lot of people here.

We are in a world where many need healing,and a kind word,and an I love you,or just a listening ear.Perhaps the god of the mighty prophet will find the time to send his mighty servant here to pray for those who need it.

Have a nice evening:)

[BlackMagicalCat]

Azzy with all do respect you sound very synical and even a bit angry. Don't you realize that negativity breeds negativity and it's not good for you?
I am,(synical)I dont trust you,nor do I find jerry so great,sorry.

I find the person who serves and never lifts themselves up,as great.

Respect is earned.

When jerry shows up,dont expect everyone to worship the ground he walks on.

Perhaps Im wrong,maybe your jerry will turn out to stay and serve and pray and uplift,but as I said before,when he does,he has done that which was his duty to do,and the same that many here have been doing before jerry and you popped up.

This place is full of people who are humble,and pray for others,and heal others,and to me they are great.But you dont see them trumpeting their greatness,and running around telling everyone how humble they are.

[Ptah]

As far as praying for Jenna, I'm sure he would be happy to do that. I'll talk to him tomorrow. Jerry doesn't subscribe to a specific religion. We are all children of God.

If you listen to the shows you'll find that Jerry acknowledges that God is within all of us and we all have the power to receive God's gifts through prayer.

I don't know what you heard but when I listened to it he only quoted the Bible. What he professes is Christianity. He also professes not to judge others but he specifically says that those who practice witchcraft are cursed to the tenth generation. He also claims other things about witchcraft.. such as mind control, it being drug related, sexually oriented and demon driven.

[LordHelmet]

AAAhh, I didn't listen to the podcasts before. now I don't mean any offense with this but I think I see whats going on here.

Jerry makes a very good point with what Paul says about there being many prophets within the church, along with people who have other gifts. Jerry feels that he is a prophet and I think he's sincere. He feels that he has the spirit of prophesy. Around here we call it precognition among other things, he calls it prophesy. Each defines it according to what their used to and the explination that fits what they already know or believe. This kind of precognition wouldn't seem as abnormal in a place where there is less christianity. It's not my personal bias it's just reality, christians rarely partake of the gifts that Paul spoke of. I think where he to have grown up in a wiccan family he would have excelled in magick.

Jerry is a smart guy, he know a lot about life in general, but like anyone else there's a lot he doesn't know too. Prophets aren't supposed to be omniscient. Jerry connects with something we all experience if we look in to ourselves. I like to think of it as my own higher self who is also your or anyone elses higher self which in fact percieves the universe into exsistance. Jerry calls it God, and thinks of the Bible and what he grew up learning. A Dianic Wiccan might say it's the Tri Goddess. many pagan like myself wouldn't think it's a deity that we can describe at all. Abraham called it Elohim, which means 'My God' or 'My Personal God', Moses called it 'I am what I am' or 'I am because I am' or 'I am that I am'.

M&M also grew up christian and naturaly takes the whole idea in that context. He's faced with a delema, Jerry seems right to him by everything he's grown up with and fits Pauls idea of a prophet, but there's the Deutronomy version that doesn't seem to fit so well. But then at other times in his stories it does. And then how do you define it, where do you draw the line and say, 'this is what makes a prophet of God'

I would like to say that it's Jerry who condemened witchcraft and the occult. I see a definate difference bettween the two and how they think, I don't think the podcast is a fake. Jerry speaks from his raising about witchcraft and complete ignorance as to what the word occult referes too. Very understandable. Again he's not omniscient.

As for M&M I think Jerry has been on christian forums and did not come here with the sole or even primary intention of converting pagans. I believe his feelings come out and I assume that he didn't want to mention the fact that he was also visiting pagan forums on the podcast because of his christian listeners. He might have told Jerry he was or he might not have had to. Jerry I think did have the intention of... speaking to and helping the pagans and witches. I don't think his intentions would be accuretly described as converting, though it sounds like that to us.

M&M, I think that bringing Jerry on MW would be a great idea, but... I'll PM you actualy.

[mmauren]

Thanks you make some good points and I respect your point of view and the way you articulate it.

I should straighten something out about why I posted here. It wasn't some grand plan or hope in converting anyone. I wanted to get some input on Jerry and the show and I posted on a number of Christian message boards. To be perfectly honest my posting here was either accidental or because of MY ignorance. Jerry had nothing to do with what I posted or where I posted it. In spite of that, I'm glad I did. This board has given me a lot of insight and I appreciate the responses positive or negative. debate is good.

Azzy I spoke to Jerry and he said he would love to pray for Jenna. He asked me to ask her age and where she is (as in a city and state) I know this is something you got from another poster on another thread. So I will go to that thread and ask the poster as well.

[Ptah]

What a snow job. What we have here is no more than a slicked up version of every Christian TV talk show and Infomercial out there. This this interview was contucted with no other intent than to profess this man a prophet. Doing this under the guise of investigative journalism will only fool those who believe in your prophet already.

Once again I ask why you brought it here. God doesn't send prophets to talk with the great unwashed, he sends them to warn HIS people.

So what did you expect people on this board to think when he said we are cursed to the tenth generation and that we were all involved in drugs, mind control and sexual pleasures? What did you think we would think when he (and you) says repeatedly that by your works are you known and then turn right around and say that because the healing works and psychic work that we do are not under Jerry's banner of Christianity that God will curse us.

Isn't part of Jerry's message, that we have all been tricked into Witchcraft, on tape, sermon, podcast.. whatever you want to call it, #4.

Bring on your prophet, I'd like to interview him.

[heathenwolf]

Humbug!!

[BlackMagicalCat]

Cursed to the tenth generation,Oh My Goddess.

Well,my son attends a Church of God with his moma,and he isnt into anything
witchy,but he is a christian and loves God and even is involved in a prison ministry,and he tells me how excited he is about it.(im so proud of him too)

And

Since Im an evil witch controlled by the devil who is on drugs and has orgies with my cat,does that mean my son will be cursed?

[BlackMagicalCat]

Im sorry If I seem harsh M and M,But feel free to Pm me if you want,but if you are honest with me,I will be honest with you.

I thought you said you and Jerry were not together,but it looks like you are in bed together with him.

If you are part of his followers,then say so,no big deal.
Hopefully you will stay awhile,because I beleive you will be blessed here,and will even learn something.

So,no hard feelings and you can call me freind if you like.

It may not be an axcident you showed up.There is much to learn here if you are teachable,if not,then sit awhile,you soon will be teachable I beleive.

Bless you.

Since you never introduced yourself,I never got a chance to give you a picture.I try to give pictures that match what I see in the person.So here is yours.

You are the unicorn,the forrest and the water is MysticWicks,and the Fairy is someone who has drawn you here and is watching you.

And you are drinking the water.Welcome

[LordHelmet]

Do I get a picture Azzy?!?!?!

[BlackMagicalCat]

Do I get a picture Azzy?!?!?!
Okay ,here is yours,hope you like it.

And you are strong spirited,and ride in the night,and are familiar with the darkness,but you have a valient heart,and on the inside a good spirit,thats the reflection in the water.

[mmauren]

I appreciate the picture Azzy. Thank you very much. I do also appreciate the input, negative and positive.

Azzy I am not a follower of Jerry's. I don't follow anyone but God. I met this man a few months ago and I thought he was intriguing. I didn't believe in his abilities but I thought it would be interesting to learn more about him and try to prove it one way or another. Over time I have seen some interesting things happen. But I'm still not absolutely sure.

To suggest that this is some promotional ettemp to gain fame and money is simply rediculous. I've worket in radio for 27 years. I've also worked in the advertisng businness writing and creating radio commercials. I've also spent in the music business representing artists. I know how to hype someone and quite honestly you don't do it by going to Pagan message boards. I simply wanted to make available a free show with no obligations to the listener. My hope was to get some insights and questions from people who listen. If they are interested they can keep listening free of charge or if the don't like it they can stop listening. Either way is fine with me.

Jerry has spent his life working in a blue collar job. He's dealt with people in the marketplace with his ministry. What I mean is that God directs him to someone wherever he might be. It could be a restaurant, a mall etc. He's never asked these people for money nor has he any desire for them to follow him. The reason for the show is more about me then it is him. I want to see if I can discern whether it's true or not. His only interest is to get his message out to more people.

If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. If you think I should be harder on him in the interviews, I can understand what you're saying. But in my opinion, Jerry's a nice man. He's delivering a good message which is in line with the Bible and he truly seems like he wants to help people. I can't go "60 minutes" on a guy like this. I do ask him hard questions and he's always answered with a satisfactry answer.

A good interviewer can tear anyone, real or not to shreds if they want. My goal isn't to do that. My goal is to give him an opportunity to prove himself. And I can do that without guerrilla tactics.
i
Finally, I'm hear not because I want to corner the market on Pagan listeners. I continue to respond because the give and take his been interesting

[BlackMagicalCat]

I appreciate the picture Azzy. Thank you very much. I do also appreciate the input, negative and positive.

Azzy I am not a follower of Jerry's. I don't follow anyone but God. I met this man a few months ago and I thought he was intriguing. I didn't believe in his abilities but I thought it would be interesting to learn more about him and try to prove it one way or another. Over time I have seen some interesting things happen. But I'm still not absolutely sure.

To suggest that this is some promotional ettemp to gain fame and money is simply rediculous. I've worket in radio for 27 years. I've also worked in the advertisng businness writing and creating radio commercials. I've also spent in the music business representing artists. I know how to hype someone and quite honestly you don't do it by going to Pagan message boards. I simply wanted to make available a free show with no obligations to the listener. My hope was to get some insights and questions from people who listen. If they are interested they can keep listening free of charge or if the don't like it they can stop listening. Either way is fine with me.

Jerry has spent his life working in a blue collar job. He's dealt with people in the marketplace with his ministry. What I mean is that God directs him to someone wherever he might be. It could be a restaurant, a mall etc. He's never asked these people for money nor has he any desire for them to follow him. The reason for the show is more about me then it is him. I want to see if I can discern whether it's true or not. His only interest is to get his message out to more people.

If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. If you think I should be harder on him in the interviews, I can understand what you're saying. But in my opinion, Jerry's a nice man. He's delivering a good message which is in line with the Bible and he truly seems like he wants to help people. I can't go "60 minutes" on a guy like this. I do ask him hard questions and he's always answered with a satisfactry answer.

A good interviewer can tear anyone, real or not to shreds if they want. My goal isn't to do that. My goal is to give him an opportunity to prove himself. And I can do that without guerrilla tactics.
i
Finally, I'm hear not because I want to corner the market on Pagan listeners. I continue to respond because the give and take his been interesting
Okay,well enjoy yourself M & M I can do anything for you,let me know.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Are there Prophet's of God among us today? If there are, how do you know that a person claiming such a thing is truly a Prophet?



yes, i am one. but then again i could be lying.:gagged:

[heathenwolf]

We could all be prophets of god.

[LordHelmet]

We could all be prophets of god.

To be a prophet in the traditional christian sense, you must fortell the future and or speak on Gods behalf, meaning God gave you a message that you pass on. I could call myself a prophet, borderline at least, but I would not be a prophet in the fundie sense, because I read the tarrot, and I claim that many spirits, likely the spirits of the cards, as well as my own self, affected the outcome. I don't see it as a message from God.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Well,claiming to be a prophet is not a light claim(from a christian veiw).Having a direct connecton to God is a high honor.Most of us struggle with the ups and downs of life and spend many hours praying to seek to know God.And sometimes that takes a lifetime.

Claiming to be a prophet is a lofty claim.Claiming that demons speak to you
and know you and call you Gods cop,sounds a bit high minded.Hopefully
Jerry,s life backs up his lofty claim.

The bible curses the person who claims to be speaking for God(Thus saith the Lord)When God hasnt spoken to them.Hopefully thats not he case here.

Cursed is the man that says,Thus saith the Lord,and I have not sent him,
says the Lord.Bible

Good luck in your search

[mmauren]

Azzy, you make a good point. In fact in the Bible says and I'm paraphrasing, those that claim to be a prophet and do not speak from God will die. That's pretty cut and dried.
Thanks

[BlackMagicalCat]

Azzy, you make a good point. In fact in the Bible says and I'm paraphrasing, those that claim to be a prophet and do not speak from God will die. That's pretty cut and dried.
Thanks
Yep,im trying real hard to learn how to link a site,but cant figure it out yet.
So im going nuts a bit.My sons not here to help me either.Glad to see ya .

[LordHelmet]

I would like to point out azzy, I think the reason that people pray so much and never reach God is that they have lost touch with the spiritual realm, not that their not pios enough or don't pray enough. America as a whole is out of touch with the unseen universe.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I would like to point out azzy, I think the reason that people pray so much and never reach God is that they have lost touch with the spiritual realm, not that their not pios enough or don't pray enough. America as a whole is out of touch with the unseen universe.

Yes ,Most definatly people are worldly,and neglect the spiritual side of things.

And I figured out how to link a site,did you know my last name is the druid name for Ostara?


I happen to be a man of prayer,uneducated ,but I pray long and hard.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Sorry If I seemed like I was rambling,I was doing 2 things at once.

So,where were we?

How is Jerry?

[mmauren]

Jerry's fine. I've asked him to pray for Jenna. I got the info from theperson who originally posted the story. It turns out it's not her daughter it's someone else she knows on the board. We'll see what happens

[BlackMagicalCat]

Jerry's fine. I've asked him to pray for Jenna. I got the info from theperson who originally posted the story. It turns out it's not her daughter it's someone else she knows on the board. We'll see what happens
Okay,thats nice of you to do that,and I thankyou on her behalf,yes its the daughter of her friend.

And Im adopting Kebra Moon Stone into my prayers,she is a teenager who has suffered much at the hands of the person who should have taken care of her.It saddens me to read her posts asking for help.

Thats what my prayer space is for,in the Alter of the ancients,to pray for others,and myself too sometimes.


But there are many prayer spaces there,and anyone can start one.
Thanks again.

[semi]

If I recall correctly, which is highly questionable, someone on this thread mentioned "masters" in martial arts. There is a saying: if you call yourself a "master," you aren't. Same goes for prophets, in my opinion.

[mmauren]

Point taken. I'm not sure you can equate martial arts with God but it's something to consider. As I've said before Jerry doesn't refer to him as a Prophet. He doesn't feel comfortable with that. The decision was mine in naming the show. I did it because I thought it made it easier for people to understand what the show and Jerry was about. Maybe a bad choice on my part but I'm a radio guy not a prophet and it's done. Don't hold that over Jerry. If you would meet him he would never say "Hey I'm Jerry/Prophet of God. In actually he might say "I'm Jerry, God's messenger boy"

When it comes down to it titles are meaningless. If God speaks through him and heals through him it's the message and the work that is done through him that's important.

[LordHelmet]

I would also point out that this is how I think it seems like the prophets in the bible took it. For them prophet wasn't some ancient holy word of high elevation, it was just messenger. They were reffered to as messengers of God, at least it seems that way to me. I doubt Elija walked around with a special walk and accent that said 'That's right, I'm a Prophet with a Capitol 'P'!"

[Storm Moon]

Very interesting read. I do have to say that I don't get into the whole prophet thing, but I wish Jerry luck.

[Ptah]

Azzy, you make a good point. In fact in the Bible says and I'm paraphrasing, those that claim to be a prophet and do not speak from God will die. That's pretty cut and dried.
Thanks

That leaves only two according to the Bible and Enoch wasn't a prophet. Do you think Jerry will live forever?

[Ptah]

When it comes down to it titles are meaningless.

Then why did you go to such great lengths to try to prove he was a prophet? As far as just being a messenger from god, I run into them all the time as god(dess) speaks through all things.

I am not buying for a second that you didn't have any intent but to prove him a prophet and propogate his message. I listened to the questions you asked him. There was not a single question that wasn't carefully thought out to lead him through this interview and when he did get stuck you were right there with the answer for him. Give me a break...


If God speaks through him and heals through him it's the message and the work that is done through him that's important.

Not according to Jerry. If a witch does the very same things that Jerry does, they are cursed. Perhaps you can explain to all of us here why it is "by a man's works he is known" applies to Jerry but not any of us?

[mmauren]

No I don't think Jerry's going to live forever. He's a human. Just a guy. I've said that all along he's not a supreme being. As he says all glory to God.

Regarding my efforts in trying to prove he's real. First of all this is the first messenger of God I've met. Anyone can say they can do this but as I've said, I want to know for sure if it's true. I believe it's possible I'm just dubious about people

Ptah I appreciate your compliment about my interviewing abilities. But I have to tell you it's not true. I don't pre-plan shows or script out questions ahead of time. I'm too lazy for that. I simply ask Jerry what he wants to talk about and I ask the questions that I want answers for. I also follow if he makes an interesting comment. I'm sorry to say there really is no prep for the show. You can believe that or not but it's true. A professional broadcaster could tell you that because it's not as smooth as it could be.

It's funny you all think you have me figured out, but you don't. I am just radio guy that likes to interview interesting people in hopes listeners will feel the same.

Here's a twist for you. In addition to this show I do ther shows not related to religion on the site www.primepodcast.com. I do a show about the paranormal (The Other Side) with a group of ghosthunters. Believe it or not there's Wiccan in the group. Now there's a contradiction? I do a money show call "The Average Joe Money Show. I produce a show that does interviews with authors call "Read This" and I do a completely pointless show called "Skirmishes of the Watercooler Wars" which is just a self-indulgent way to blow off broadcast steam. Don't believe me? Check out the site.

So you see I'm not a faithful follower doing everything I can to promote this man. And I'm not some zealot trying to convert "poor Pagans". I'm just trying to do radio shows that attract listeners. I will say that I have been impressed with Jerry and I find the conversation compelling. I truly do want to find out if he's real for my own spiritual reasons. And I think he's a nice man that really wants to spread a good message and help people.

[BlackMagicalCat]

M&m,what path do you follow?

Im just wondering for myself.Are you a christian?Ive listen to some paranormal stations and there are some awfully strange people out there.

[mmauren]

I am a Christian. I've mentioned that before. I believe in God.

[mmauren]

You're right. There are some strange people out there. But frankly you can run into just as strange folks at the mall or the library.

[Ptah]

Ptah I appreciate your compliment about my interviewing abilities. But I have to tell you it's not true. I don't pre-plan shows or script out questions ahead of time. I'm too lazy for that. I simply ask Jerry what he wants to talk about and I ask the questions that I want answers for. I also follow if he makes an interesting comment. I'm sorry to say there really is no prep for the show. You can believe that or not but it's true. A professional broadcaster could tell you that because it's not as smooth as it could be.

Well, in that case, let's just say a bias is obvious throughout.

[mmauren]

Well we are all biased. Even you Ptah, as is illustrated in your posts. But that's not big news and there's nothing wrong with that. We are all human.

The ironic thing to me is that this thread over 1800views and on my site I can identify a large number visitors coming from here to there. What's that tell you? I don't know but it is interesting. If nothing else I'm glad I've been able to entertain you.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Well we are all biased. Even you Ptah, as is illustrated in your posts. But that's not big news and there's nothing wrong with that. We are all human.

The ironic thing to me is that this thread over 1800views and on my site I can identify a large number visitors coming from here to there. What's that tell you? I don't know but it is interesting. If nothing else I'm glad I've been able to entertain you.

Everyone is doing research on Jerry.And then we are all going to turn Jerry into a frog.:lol:

Just kidding,I couldnt help myself,sorry.:hahugh:

Im glad you are happy.:boing:

See ya

[Ptah]

Well we are all biased. Even you Ptah, as is illustrated in your posts. But that's not big news and there's nothing wrong with that. We are all human.

I never claimed not to be biased. I haven't tried to give anyone the impression that what I was doing was impartial. You claim repeatedly in your opening statements on all the podcasts that you are impartial.That, my friend, is the difference here...


The ironic thing to me is that this thread over 1800views and on my site I can identify a large number visitors coming from here to there. What's that tell you?

People are looking in on this thread and going to your site to see what all the noise is about.


I don't know but it is interesting. If nothing else I'm glad I've been able to entertain you.

It has been entertaining... Would it have been nearly as entertaining, if all the members here had just agreed that this man is a prophet? No, it is the objectivity that can be found in this thread from opposing sides that entertains people. If entertainment was your purpose, how much more entertaining would it have been to see Jerry squirm out of that comment about Witches when pressed. Wouldn't it have been entertaining to ask, "Whoa, Jerry.. what happened to God's love, doesn't God love the Witches too? Did Jesus die for everyone but the Witches? If Jesus died for our sins, why would the Witch's sins be punished to the tenth generation? Is your God is a loving one or a vendictive one who punishes the innocent?

So Jerry, about these Witches in Arizona, how many did you talk to? Were you interacting with them in their religious rites? Did you have fellowship with them on a daily basis? Have you seen this deviant sexual behaviour among them? Have you witnessed the drug orgies? How do they go about practicing their form of mind control? Is that all part of their curriculum or are they just predisposed to this 'evil'? How is it that you can say 'by their works they are known' and not give them any credit for any good works they might do? Jerry, do you believe that Witches are the consorts of Satan? All witches? What about the Witch of Endor, that not only drew up the spirit of Samuel but under peril of death cared for the emotionally distraught Saul until the morning. Wasn't she a tool of god at that moment? Was her family cursed until the tenth generation? Do you believe, Jerry, that all witches should be put to death, afterall isn't that what your bible says? Just exactly how do Witches smell, Jerry?"

Those are all questions this biased old priest would have asked. Why? Well, for one thing I actually know Witches and have met with them in their religious rites; because I know that what Jerry assumes about them is false; because biased reporting is the most basic form of mind control; and because it is important to know the truth of a matter. And you won't get to the truth of this matter, if all you do is venerate the man and his message.

[morningstar2651]

According to Christianity, universal revelations ended with the preaching of the apostles.

[morningstar2651]

Witches in Arizona? Which podcast is that? I might do a little hands on investigation to his claims.

[Ptah]

#4, I believe, just before the middle of the podcast.

It does make sense that Witches would gravitate to where there is very small likelyhood of tornados or accidently being hit with water. :broomride

Just for clarification, I am not a witch but I have many friends who are. Some who live in Arizona...

[-Ember]

Huh... only self described prophet of god I've met face to face is the homeless man we used to call "jesus guy" as he panhandled near my work. And he ended up having some serious problems.... Hear of the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping?

So, are there prophets of god? My first question would be what type of prophet is he? The foretell the future type or the Old Testament screaming preacher type?

If the first type, he should be able to provide some evidence. Something that speaks to you. If he is a prophet of god, his point in being able to do that is usually prested as being one of reaffirming faith. If he can't speak to you and say things that hit home, he isn't doing the job. The focus should be about you or someone else... others.

If the second type, he should be chastizing. He should know what is wrong and have dire threats before the fact (not after, as many of our current wannabe's do.) He should be putting the fear of god into people. And if he isn't, again he isn't doing the job. His message should be focused on society as a whole.

Neither should be stopping to pass the collection plate. They have faith God will do what is needful to get them where they need to go. They do not have to beg us for help (although they will accept it) because their job is with God, not with us. A way will be found. And if they don't believe that, aren't willing to sacrifice what is needful to make their point... they probably aren't prophets.

[mmauren]

Ptah,

I'll put your questions to Jerry and I'll get you some answers. Same for you Ember. I'll give him your postings so there's no confusion of what you want to know.

[morningstar2651]

#4, I believe, just before the middle of the podcast.

It does make sense that Witches would gravitate to where there is very small likelyhood of tornados or accidently being hit with water. :broomride

Just for clarification, I am not a witch but I have many friends who are. Some who live in Arizona...I live in Arizona, and I practice witchcraft.

[Ptah]

Chandler, I would venture to guess..

[morningstar2651]

Chandler, I would venture to guess..Yep. It's set as my location. I'm listening to podcast #4 for mention of witches in Arizona since this is something I can look into.

[morningstar2651]

Jerry mentions a church in Phoenix where everyone was suffering from fear (about four minutes into podcast #4). Which church was this. What is the name of the pastor? Also mention of a "black witch and a warlock praying against a church" -- which church is this? I need this information to investigate his claims.

Also, does Jerry know what a warlock is?

[Ptah]

Ptah,

I'll put your questions to Jerry and I'll get you some answers.

Cool, I will be looking forward to your next podcast where you ask him. Number 6 in the series, right?

[mmauren]

The sixt podcast is already recorded and that will be going up in the next day or so. We will record another on Monday and that will go on next wednesday.

[mmauren]

I'll try to get some answers for you her though in the next day or so.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Ptah,

I'll put your questions to Jerry and I'll get you some answers. Same for you Ember. I'll give him your postings so there's no confusion of what you want to know.
Why do you have to be Jerrys go between?

Let him speak for himself .

Claiming to be a prophet is saying a mouthfull(actually claiming your a witch is too)

I dont need God to send me to pray for someone,I have enough sense to know its what Im supposed to do.

You said Jerry is dirrectted by God to pray for some.But prayer is something we are supposed to do anyway.Its like waiting for God to tell you,OKAY my child,go ahead and brush your teeth.We should not need to be told to do it,its our duty.

So Jerry gets no kudos from me for doing what so many here already do.

You keep saying,Okay,Ill ask Jerry.

[morningstar2651]

I'll try to get some answers for you her though in the next day or so.Awesome, could you please ask my questions about the churches in Arizona too?

[Ptah]

The sixt podcast is already recorded and that will be going up in the next day or so. We will record another on Monday and that will go on next wednesday.

Lets see, Jerry does things and knows things about people and they don't know he knows or that he does things in the name of god to them. He doesn't need to verify anything, he just knows what he did had the desired result.

So witches and those who associate with them are afraid of the power of Jerry? Which lake in Az. did this man, who lost his soul to a witch, supposedly drown in?


I would really like the following explained:




I should straighten something out about why I posted here. It wasn't some grand plan or hope in converting anyone.


in Podcast 7 you say to Jerry,

"...Hopefully... maybe through this podcast we'll be able to accomplish ... to get to more people ... than the one at a time in a grocery store. That's one of the reasons why we are doing this..."


I thought you were going to ask some of the questions I proffered.

[mmauren]

I told you I would ask him and put it in the show. We aren't recording a show until Friday. I'll post the answers here to if you want. But don't act like a child with the na na boo boo stuff. You're better then that.

[Twig]

Hey Welcome to MW mmauren!! We are a friendly lot as a whole. Don't let the terse replies set you off. ~2000 years of discrimination will make a person be guarded at times hehe.

124 replies! :hahugh: You friend have created a firestorm if nothing else.

Well, as my habit is to reply off the cuff and not yet having heard this contraversial cast, I'll be right back with a commentary and explanations.

Don't go away!

(update) Tried every link and then some and get nothing. Taken off the air?

Well then. I would have you ask these questions and see what reply you get. Ones that I have asked preachers, rabbis and imams. It seperates the wheat from the chaff to use a christian saying. (These questions are what caused me to leave christianity in the first place 34 years ago and haven't been answered to my satisfaction yet)

1. If God is All merciful as claimed, how could he in all his mercifulness create a hell? If he "knows all and sees all" why didn't he see Lucifers treachery in advance?

2. How can a God that is All powerful, so far above us that we cannot even comprehend his nature have such base HUMAN emotions such as jealousy and rage? That would presuppose that he is nervous about his position.....among the other Gods and Goddesses perhaps? The jealousy alone is enough to make a person wonder just how mighty one is when they COVET the human race so much. Coveting, yeah there is something mentioned in those 10 laws to live by is there not? Oooops that would make "him" a hippocrite!

But then again he is the originator of the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy after all. (theres the commentary part)

And finally. If he can "see and know ALL" why did he even give man free will and how could he not have forseeen the results if he did? And if he did, see where we would be today, How can his all "encompassing love" allow it to go this far!!? Ooooh thats right he only loves hiiiiiiis people!!! EVERYbody else is "misguided". Lets add favoritism and elitism to that list of base human emotion.

If he can answer these questions of 34 years to my satisfaction, I will get re-baptised the same day. (which is really going to suck because I JUST joined the AODA! hahaha)

Peace,
Rev. R. Twig Jones
The Druid of Peace
(comparative religion for longer than most of ya'll have been alive! :)

[Faeawyn]

Hey Twig. I loved your questions. Can I take a stab at some of them? I consider myself somewhat of a Christian Witch...altho other "Christians" would never see me as one. I'm really more of a "New Ager" I guess. But these are the answers I've found.....now they are in no way the only answers or definitely the right answers....but they work well for me :)



1. If God is All merciful as claimed, how could he in all his mercifulness create a hell? If he "knows all and sees all" why didn't he see Lucifers treachery in advance?
In my belief system, there is no hell. It was created by the early Christian leaders to create fear. If Lucifer was indeed cast from "heaven" (I don't really go for that golden gates and clouds thing), then I believe "God" did indeed know of his plans, but its all about "free will" my friend. I think free will is the number 1 rule....like that Star Trek rule about non-interference.


2. How can a God that is All powerful, so far above us that we cannot even comprehend his nature have such base HUMAN emotions such as jealousy and rage? That would presuppose that he is nervous about his position.....among the other Gods and Goddesses perhaps? The jealousy alone is enough to make a person wonder just how mighty one is when they COVET the human race so much. Coveting, yeah there is something mentioned in those 10 laws to live by is there not? Oooops that would make "him" a hippocrite!

But then again he is the originator of the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy after all. (theres the commentary part)
Again...I don't think that describes God at all. I think its an image that was once again created to invoke fear in people.....a vengeful, merciless, jealous God causes just enough fear to be able to have power over people.



And finally. If he can "see and know ALL" why did he even give man free will and how could he not have forseeen the results if he did? And if he did, see where we would be today, How can his all "encompassing love" allow it to go this far!!? Ooooh thats right he only loves hiiiiiiis people!!! EVERYbody else is "misguided". Lets add favoritism and elitism to that list of base human emotion.
Again, I think these are old preconceived notions created by the early leaders of the church. We are all "his/her" people. Without mistakes, how can we learn. Now don't ask me to what end this educational process takes us.....I haven't figured that out yet. But I'm working on it :)

[Twig]

TY though. Yeah that free will things makes a good argument but not good enough. . Sitting here wondering if we aren't related with those views. :cheers:

But we are getting off the main point I think.

Answer - Yes I belive prophets walk amomg us! Truly inspired people who do see and converse and spread the words their god(dess)(s), whatever. I have seen and even changed the future when my higher power gave me the choice of Druidry over any other Path. And the ripple effect of that brought me here.

He may or may not be an instrument of the Gods but heres the Catch-22! People want scientific proof for acts of faith. Like oil and water. Now that he is trying to speak his word we automatically greet with scepticism. thats all good and fine. But analytical and philosophical mind shall never meet....except for Druids.

( At that Twig jumps down and kicks the soapbox away)

We got the best of both worlds! The original analyticals of history or as some like to say "The Truth Against the World!".

(opening a bottle of mead) So come on everybody! Be a Druid today!!!_travolta_

(This message brought to you by the Druids. Druidry - "y GWIR yn ERBYN y BYD") :nyah: :hehehe:

[Faeawyn]

TY though. Yeah that free will things makes a good argument but not good enough. . Sitting here wondering if we aren't related with those views. :cheers:

Well thats a privilege. I can't think of anyone I'd rather be related too :)

[Ptah]

I told you I would ask him and put it in the show. We aren't recording a show until Friday. I'll post the answers here to if you want. But don't act like a child with the na na boo boo stuff. You're better then that.



Originally Posted by mmauren
The sixt podcast is already recorded and that will be going up in the next day or so. We will record another on Monday and that will go on next wednesday.



I find it interesting that rather than addressing any points brought up in my posts, you choose to scold me instead.

[Ptah]

Ooooh thats right he only loves hiiiiiiis people!!!

He destroyed all but a handful of his people with a worldwide flood.
He destroyed half of them in the desert during the Exodus for breaking a commandment they didn't know existed.
He punished Moses for striking a rock rather than speaking to it, so that he could not enter the promise land.
He punished his people because King David sinned and took a census.
He allowed the righteous Job to suffer, his family, livestock and crops to die, just to prove a point
He allowed his people to be captured and enslaved many times.
He allowed his people to be dispersed all over the world.
He has continued to allow his chosen people to be persecuted worldwide, even unto this day.

...And on and on and on...

No thanks, I think I can do without that kind of love.

[morningstar2651]

And what of my Arizona questions, or would you rather I not investigate his claims and just assume that every word he speaks is true?

[Ptah]

Still waiting... What's the hold up? I really want to see how Jerry Whatshisname addressed my questions? C'mon you scolded me for chiding you about not asking before...the ball's in your court.

[Kestrel Firesong]

Well, MMauren's last activity was on January 28th, and there haven't been any new podcasts since the 22nd of January. I hope nothing has happened to our little Prophet of God.

[LordHelmet]

I think he bailed. Ptah and Azzy softened him up and then Twig gave him one solid one that left him out for the count.

I suppose he dropped these questions by Jerry, Jerry looked at them and started getting a feeling in him like he shouldn't be answering them, and felt compeled to advise Mike to stay away form that croud. Somewhat dissapionted but also secretly (and understandable) relieved, he opted to follow this seeming prophet who had made such an impression on his doubting but willing mind. It didn't seem right to him but he didn't want to end up like some of Jerrys other stories. Now Mike might continue to read the posts without signing in or he might not go near the website.

[Ptah]

Podcast 8...

Hey Mike...:wave: Maybe, it was the deaf and dumb demon Jerry exorcised that erased your Podcast. If so, it didn't work, did it? Perhaps, Jerry needs more practice . Maybe he didn't fast like it says in Mark before he tried it. Or maybe the power of Witchcraft compels you!

[Ptah]

Hey Mikey, I was willing to give you a chance when you swore that you came here with no hidden agenda, I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you said you didn't post here to try to convert us. Why haven't you asked any of the questions this board proffered? More importantly, why is the bulk of the message of the Podcasts on the subject of deliverance from Witchcraft?

I now know beyond any doubt, after listening to all 8 of your Podcasts, that it was not only your intent but your only intent. I knew it and called it from the beginning and I knew, without a doubt, I was correct when you scolded me for saying so. There is no truth to you or your message.

Prophets of God spoke outside the confines of their organized faiths. That their prophesies are contained in the OT are a testament to their accuracy. You are attempting to declare a man Prophet who does nothing more than spew rote from the confines of his organized religion. He has no original message, every word he speaks is from the Bible within the confines of the Charismatic movement. There is no need for a prophet who only repeats what he has read. If so, I am your prophet of god because, not only can I quote the Bible better than Jerry, I can quote it without any influence from the Pentecostal beliefs and in the correct historical context.

I don't believe for one second that anything happened to your Podcast but creative editing. Want to know why? Because you could have asked him all the questions you were going to the next day before you added your little synopsis, in place of his exorcism of Witchcraft. What happened Mike, did the phone conveniently quit working so that you couldn't call him before you added your comments in place of whatever was truly on the Podcast?

By the way, asking your Prophet what his first impressions of Angela were, after he interviewed her, is the oldest carnival sideshow psychic trick in the book. You ask him of his impressions of her before he talks to her, not after, it doesn't take a prophet to repeat what someone has just told him. While I am on the subject of Angela... Jerry is a hypocrite, he tells her one moment that all she has to do is have faith, then he asks her if she has gotten the church to pray with her. What does faith have to do with what others do or don't do? Won't god listen to Angela or is this just a backhanded way of trying to convince people to go to church? (which BTW you also deny he is doing, what a crock) How dare Jerry, after listening to her entire story of woe, tell her that she needed to be more goal oriented. What happened to her faith? Jesus said if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move mountains. He never once said to get the church ladies or Bob Tilton to pray the mountain will move if that doesn't work, nor does he tell his disciples to be more goal oriented. What happened, Jerry had a woman that had been praying and fasting on faith, how come her faith isn't strong enough to get her the very basic of needs for her existence. Didn't Jesus say that his father watches over the sparrow and clothes the lily of the valley, so why worry about those things because his father also watches over us? Or is that only reseverved for church goers?

One last thing, the demon of epilepsy's name, talked about in Mark and rehashed by your supposed prophet, is not Deaf and Dumb. That is a description of what that demon was doing, not its name. Tell Jerry to throw away his Kenneth Hagin books and set aside his Amplified bible. Tell him to pick up the Septuagint or the Peshetta or any translation of the Bible not published by Tyndale House and try doing some real research into the faith he calls his own. Tell Jerry to read the Sermon on the Mount, after all that is the true Doctrine of the Christ, not this ignorant, bigotted, foolishness he professes.

You asked in the very first post if this man is a prophet. Well dude, after listening to all 8 Podcasts in their entirety, I answer your question with an emphatic NO!

[Tobias]

Mind if I jump in here?

I apologize, I have just found this thread and have not followed it all the way through; nor have I listened to the pod-casts. I'm a little short on time right now, so I'll be brief:

I too am a Prophet of God. It's not something I chose for myself, but have tried to be faithful to the calling (even if for nothing else than my own comfort). God can be quite persuasive when he wants to be! Remember the story of Jonah in the Bible. He was called but didn't want to go, and ended up in the belly of a fish before changing his mind.

Prophets speak on behalf of God. That's the job description. It's then up to the listener to determine whether it was indeed God speaking, and to choose whether they will take His words to heart or not. It seems though that some people here think that the title "Prophet" must only go to people that can be exalted and reverenced among men. But that is not necessarily the case. Jonah didn't act too honorably, IMO.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees saying, "Your fathers killed the Prophets, and you build their memorials." Iow, neither one cared to listen to what the Prophets had to say. Exalting Prophets is just one way to avoid listening to them. We see that quite clearly with the Abrahamic faiths today. Abraham listen to the voice of God, and by faith followed this mysterious voice to another land and learned many lessons because of it. Today much of the world's population centers around honoring Abraham for his spiritual accomplishments; while avoiding imitating his religion. Instead, we redefine "faith" to mean: "Believe what I tell you to believe" rather than trusting the voice of God like Abraham did.

Prophets are just tools that God uses to get us accustomed to hearing his voice. We shouldn't put them up on too high of pedestals, least we forget Who it is we are listening to. If this guy Jerry really is a Prophet, then great! If and when God wants to speak to you individually through him, then He will prove Himself in a way that you can understand. But don't expect signs like walking on water or raising the dead. God is usually more subtle, and loves to work in the realm of "reasonable doubt". It has a way of sorting out those who obey because they feel they have to, from those who listen because they want to.

Well anyway, I hope that I got my point across ok. Just don't feel it's necessary to exalt the Prophet above what he's useful for. I'm off to do my Valentine's Day shopping. I'll check back in later. :)

[Tobias]

Well, I've made it through most of the discussion on this thread, as well as some of the podcasts. Based upon the content of Podcast #4, I would have to say that Jerry definitely IS a Prophet of God. I could tell he was speaking and acting on behalf of God through much of that segment.

Mostly though, it seems that Jerry is content to discuss his own personal beliefs. I wasn't able to listen to much of the interviews, as the site seems to be having problems. Also, I found most of what I heard quite boring. There is nothing unique about what Jerry believes, and literally thousands of Prophets just like him have been trained over the past two decades. If you haven't heard about them, it's probably because they are quite isolated from most everybody else, being persecuted by other Christians yet holding onto rigid belief in the Bible. You pretty much have to go to one of their meetings to even know they exist; and then you have to put up with your basic Evangelical salvation doctrines +.

Personally, I rate a Prophet based upon how much and how often he/she speaks and acts on God's behalf. Anyone can teach or talk about what they believe, which Jerry seems to be doing more than anything else. And OMG, some of the stuff he believes about witchcraft etc.!! But, I'm not going to be too hard on him for that. I too was into the Deliverance ministries (exorcism) years ago, and was taught all that same garbage. There is some validity to it though.

In leu of Jerry showing his face around here, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you guys might have concerning modern day Prophets. They are mentioned in the New Testament along side of the Apostles, so they are a valid ministry today in the Church (according to the Bible). There are even instructions on how only two or three of them should speak at a time in public meetings, so there must have been plenty of them in the New Testament Church.

Oh, and if you are looking for a Prophet who can predict the future with any kind of accuracy, try KimClement.com

[Ptah]

Personally, I rate a Prophet based upon how much and how often he/she speaks and acts on God's behalf.

God told me you're wrong to rate his prophets like that and he tells me that often.


Anyone can teach or talk about what they believe, which Jerry seems to be doing more than anything else. And OMG, some of the stuff he believes about witchcraft etc.!! But, I'm not going to be too hard on him for that. I too was into the Deliverance ministries (exorcism) years ago, and was taught all that same garbage. There is some validity to it though.

There is no validity to a demon of Witchcraft that curses your family for 10 generations. Its apostolic fantasy. Why not be hard on him for that?


In leu of Jerry showing his face around here, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you guys might have concerning modern day Prophets.

Would it be you answering or God?


They are mentioned in the New Testament along side of the Apostles, so they are a valid ministry today in the Church (according to the Bible). There are even instructions on how only two or three of them should speak at a time in public meetings, so there must have been plenty of them in the New Testament Church.

Oh, and if you are looking for a Prophet who can predict the future with any kind of accuracy, try KimClement.com

Or Sylvia Brown at http://www.sylvia.org/home/index.cfm she also claims her powers are from God.

Don't get upset, I'm just being glib here, I have a weird sense of humor that sounds better live than written. I do have some questions for you, though it might be better to start a new thread on the subject rather than hijacking this one.

How does one determine that another person truly has God speaking through them? In other words, how do I know that a person claiming to be a Prophet of God isn't just blowing out a lot of hot air? By what authority can I be sure it is truly God speaking?

If God can speak to anyone and anything (and I am supposing he is because he is considered by most to be omniscient) why does he need prophets? Are we not supposed to have a personal relationship with the divine and doesn't personal relationship with Deity negate the need for any such intercessory interference? Why wouldn't (s)he just talk to us then?

[Elderbush]

This is an alien concept to my religion, but it is an Abrahamic one, that their god cannot speak directly to the person he wishes to address but has to speak through another person. I've never quite gotten the point of that. I prefer direct gods myself.

[Ptah]

This is an alien concept to my religion, but it is an Abrahamic one, that their god cannot speak directly to the person he wishes to address but has to speak through another person. I've never quite gotten the point of that. I prefer direct gods myself.

Exactly.. Why, if he can speak though one, can't he speak to, and through, all. In the Bible he even speaks to Baalam through his ass (donkey) :hahugh: .

[Tobias]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias
Personally, I rate a Prophet based upon how much and how often he/she speaks and acts on God's behalf.


God told me you're wrong to rate his prophets like that and he tells me that often.



Ptah,

You must be a False Prophet then. ;)



There is no validity to a demon of Witchcraft that curses your family for 10 generations. Its apostolic fantasy. Why not be hard on him for that?


Yes there is. But remember, it is a Christian Rule that all spiritual truth must be filtered through the Bible. Unfortunately a lot of untruth is usually picked up in the process. Many Christians are off balance because of this. I try and ground myself in some of the other basics: like science, psychology, logic, and what other people know about the spirit realm. The knowledge of God is not limited to Christians. All through the Bible we see God dealing with people outside the Faith.

Jesus was an exorcist, and cast out many "unclean spirits." Followers for the past 2000 years have accumulated at least a little bit of knowledge along those lines. Or, are you one of those Pagans who thinks Christianity is not a valid spiritual path, and nothing but a big black mark on our history?



Quote:
In leu of Jerry showing his face around here, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you guys might have concerning modern day Prophets.


Would it be you answering or God?



Mostly just me. :)



Or Sylvia Brown at http://www.sylvia.org/home/index.cfm she also claims her powers are from God.

...How does one determine that another person truly has God speaking through them? In other words, how do I know that a person claiming to be a Prophet of God isn't just blowing out a lot of hot air? By what authority can I be sure it is truly God speaking?

If God can speak to anyone and anything (and I am supposing he is because he is considered by most to be omniscient) why does he need prophets? Are we not supposed to have a personal relationship with the divine and doesn't personal relationship with Deity negate the need for any such intercessory interference? Why wouldn't (s)he just talk to us then?

Sylvia Browne doesn't speak for God, but channels her spirit guide Francine. (I don't really like that setup).

I can tell when someone is speaking for God or not. I don't know exactly how. Over the years I've developed the ability to focus in on the Spirit of my God, and know when he's doing/speaking or not.

Perhaps that is one of the reason he would choose to speak through prophets rather than through other means. Being a prophet involves more than just your mouth (or ass in Balaam's case!) Ideally it encompasses your entire life, to where most everything you do is a testimony of what God wished for Mankind. The Bible is generally very frank about how God's people fail, just to keep us from getting confused.

Ideally I do think that God wants to speak to each of us in his own way. Prophets are just tools to get us started in hearing his voice, and hopefully dependable sources for confirmation when we aren't so sure at times.

[Tobias]

This is an alien concept to my religion, but it is an Abrahamic one, that their god cannot speak directly to the person he wishes to address but has to speak through another person. I've never quite gotten the point of that. I prefer direct gods myself.


Throughout history we have had a problem with people claiming to be the sole "Prophet" or spokesperson for their god. The personal benefits for the person in that position are obvious. The Abrahamic faiths are not the only ones that have fallen prey to this kind of human ambition.

Many Christians have found their God to be quite personal. Where do you think the question: "Have you met Jesus?" comes from? Now obviously not everyone who offers you a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" actually makes regular use of this bond they have with God; but nonetheless, it is quite possibly there.

It's unfortunate that most people would rather have somebody else speak for God rather than listening to him themselves. That was the problem Moses faced when God spoke directly to the people at mt. Sinai. They freaked out, and asked Moses if there was any way that God could speak just to him, and then have him tell them what God had to say. Thus the concept of the Prophet was born, and basic principles to govern the job were written.

It does seem to be just a part of the human condition to want to follow somebody else, and to have someone we can trust to "Speak on behalf of God." Just because many charlatans have tried to fill this position, doesn't mean that there have never been any God-ordained messengers. Anyone wanting to speak directly with God is more than welcome to do so. In fact, people looking to the Prophets instead of establishing their own relationship with God is a problem that's quite prevalent in the Christian Prophetic Movement.

[mmauren]

This is really pretty funny. I look at this thread and there are some reasonable and intelligent people here. On the other hand we have got some out here that are little more then children. Some of you are just flat out in a Jr. High mob mentality. Then there are some that act nice and then when they don't get what they want they join the mob. Grow up!

I've been away from this thread is for a few reasons. First of all I have a life and I don't have as much time to devote to message boards as some of you obviously do. Secondly, as I said before, initially I posted here by accident. For awhile it was kind of interesting but ultimately it got tedius. I mean how long can you listen to the same sophmoric comments before it get's old. Or maybe I was embarrassed be cause I was found out. You realized that I was covertly trying to convert each an every one of you. Yeah right!!! Like it matters to me what you believe. I'm not a prophet, I'm just a radio guy. I have nothing to gain by converting you or anybody. Besides if God wanted you converted he could do it without my help. Regarding the verification of this situation in Arizona. The reason we haven't addressed that is because we're not here to hurt people. Jerry and I decided that by exposing the names we could hurt innocent people and open up ourselves to lawsuits. We don't need that fight. We have nothing to gain from it. Maybe you think you scared me off. Hardly! You don't scare me. Jerry once said that fear is the opposite of faith. Frankly, I'll go the way of faith everytime.

The bottom line is the thread was getting redundant and boring. You need some new material. But I have an idea about how we could liven this thing up again. Why don't we address what you believe as Pagans or wicca or whatever. Let me ask some hard questions about your beliefs. Let's face it. Your beliefs are a bit outside the mainstream and there's some things that are just as hard to believe as some of Jerry's claims. So is there one of you that feels up to answering some direct and pointed questions? Is there someone out there that can handle it? The advantages you have over me is that you are on your own turf and are surrounded by allies. Still I'd be willing face off with you and see what we can discern about your beliefs and what we might expose as questionable.

So there's a challenge. Let's see if anyone steps up and addresses my questions and comments like I did with you. I'll be watching.

[morningstar2651]

I'll gladly answer your questions. However, right now I have to pull an all-nighter. I have a 40 page document & a level to finish for tomorrow. I'll be able to get a fairly in-depth response to you within probably 48 hours.

To be honest, there is much variation between the Pagan religions. It's a broad category.

[Tobias]

The bottom line is the thread was getting redundant and boring. You need some new material. But I have an idea about how we could liven this thing up again. Why don't we address what you believe as Pagans or wicca or whatever. Let me ask some hard questions about your beliefs. Let's face it. Your beliefs are a bit outside the mainstream and there's some things that are just as hard to believe as some of Jerry's claims.


So that's the end of it already? Time to move on to the "next big story"? See if you can come up with something from your "accidental" encounter here with Pagans who live on the fringes of spiritual beliefs? I see how it is.

It's fascinating to see how quickly you've lost interest in your "personal" quest to determine whether Jerry is a true Prophet of God or not. Or are you satisfied with my conclusions, and ready to move on? But without any acknowledgment or so much as a "thank you"? Sheesh!

Lol! Actually Mike, I thank you! I've learned more about "Investigative Reporting" from this experience than you could imagine! I see that it's more about the information that you don't give, than what you do. It keeps people on the edge of their seats, waiting for you to "find out". All it takes is someone like me to come in and ruin everything by laying out the facts. I gave up more information about what it really means to be a prophet in 4 short posts, than you did in 29 posts and 8 pod casts!

But hey, it's all good. I understand what it takes to make the world go 'round. People watch/listen to the news programs because they like to. They're exposed to things they may never come into contact with otherwise. I'm just lucky enough to know this subject backwards and forwards, and get to see straight through it to what it is that you do.

[Tobias]

Wow! Is it just me, or does taking on the title of "Prophet of God" seem kind of high and lofty? I've quite honestly never referred to myself as one before. Though I've been around the Prophetic Movement since the early 80's, I've never considered myself to be a prophet. It always seemed like other people could prophesy better than I ever could. It was these that I considered to be the real prophets.

Lately though, being out of the Christian setting, it has occurred to me that I do sometimes speak on my god's behalf. It's usually very difficult for me; I have to take some time to make sure I get it right. Other prophets I've known just rattle it off with confidence. Many times too they seem to be quite into themselves.

And that's pretty much my point. I'm amazed how much "into myself" I've felt over the past two days since calling myself a Prophet of God. I feel such authority, like everything I say must come straight from God Almighty. Of course I can't forget how not too long ago, about 5 veteran prophet/esses stood around me and my wife telling us that God had called us to a ministry traveling around Germany on a motorcycle! (We don't speak any German, nor do I ride motorcycles anymore!)

Apparently Prophets can be quite wrong. Perhaps confidence isn't such a good thing when it comes to divination (or whatever you call it). I can see how people in the "Office of the Prophet" can so easily believe in themselves, and not take the time to determine whether what they say is true or not.

Maybe it doesn't work the same for everybody; but for me the title of "Prophet" is just too much. Organized religion has elevated it too high. I'd rather be accurate than revered, so I'm going to drop it right here. I may prophesy at times, but I'm no Prophet. This has been a great learning experience for me. My apologies for the arrogance I've displayed.

[mmauren]

Tobias,

I haven't given up my quest with Jerry or the show. That continues. It's simply that I've answered questions and comments here and it's like pounding my head against the wall. I can't believe you think that all we are doing would revolve around this board or you. I can assure you that it has been only a minor benefit. It's more an interesting aside. As far as you being a Prophet...if you are great. But I'll tell you this. What I've found is that prophets are humble people. And you show and arrogance that is not typical of this kind of person. You're attempts at humor or cleverness fall short.


As far as the reference to Jerry as a Prophet of God, I have answered this several times. I'll do it one more but this is exactly why I have spent less time here. Jerry thinks of himself more of a messenger or servant of God. I chose to entitle the show Prophet of God- Discerning the Truth. Right, wrong or otherwise I did it because I thought it would attract more interst and curiousity. So that's on me. Don't hang that on Jerry. You may want to work on your reading skills.

As far as your "understanding" of investigative reporting, you obviously know very little and you obviously don't understand what I'm trying to do.. But that's fine. whether you get it or not is really inconsequential.

[Ptah]

This is really pretty funny. I look at this thread and there are some reasonable and intelligent people here. On the other hand we have got some out here that are little more then children. Some of you are just flat out in a Jr. High mob mentality. Then there are some that act nice and then when they don't get what they want they join the mob. Grow up!

What? Still no answers, just more scolding us out of control children? Is this your modis operandi when you don't wish to ask or answer questions? None of the questions I have asked are new, nor have I ganged up on you. I am repeating, nearly word for word , what I have said from the beginning.... and you have ignored my questions from the start. That could be why this is getting tedious, there are no new questions because there are no answers to the previous questions.


I've been away from this thread is for a few reasons. First of all I have a life and I don't have as much time to devote to message boards as some of you obviously do.

What a weak, condescending, ad hominem argument... I spend nearly an hour a day on the internet? I also have a life, I am a wildcrafter, a priest of my faith, am a counselor, teacher, gardener, writer and ahealer. I realize that may all seem trite to some but it keeps me very busy. What I don't do is try to convert others to what I believe by devious means and then throw a tantrum when someone calls me on it.

Listen dude, I am 52 years old, I grew up in an Assemblies of God pentecostal church. My parents owned an interdenominational Christian Book store that I ran for 10 years. I see through you like water, I first heard your Podcast on the radio as a child, I have seen it on every PTL club (insert any TV evangelist talk show here). I have had heated spiritual debates with WV Grant Jr., Walt Mills, Bob Tilton and a few other charlatans. The only difference in what they were, and you are, doing is your medium and your premise. There is simply nothing new about your technique or the message you try to espouse. Deny that's what your doing all you wish, I happen to know better. I recognized it from the beginning and said so. To date you have done absolutely nothing to cause me to change my mind.


Secondly, as I said before, initially I posted here by accident. For awhile it was kind of interesting but ultimately it got tedius. I mean how long can you listen to the same sophmoric comments before it get's old. Or maybe I was embarrassed be cause I was found out. You realized that I was covertly trying to convert each an every one of you. Yeah right!!! Like it matters to me what you believe. I'm not a prophet, I'm just a radio guy. I have nothing to gain by converting you or anybody. Besides if God wanted you converted he could do it without my help. Regarding the verification of this situation in Arizona. The reason we haven't addressed that is because we're not here to hurt people. Jerry and I decided that by exposing the names we could hurt innocent people and open up ourselves to lawsuits. We don't need that fight. We have nothing to gain from it. Maybe you think you scared me off. Hardly! You don't scare me. Jerry once said that fear is the opposite of faith. Frankly, I'll go the way of faith everytime.

LOL.. it would seem to me that if someone commits suicide it would be a matter of public record. Just give me the lake and date, I can find out the rest. The fact is you can't verify anything because what you are dealing with here is fantasy. Prove the man who drowned himself had a demon of witchcraft. You can't, all you can do is make that assertion and that assertion comes from the mind of Jerry, not from anything real. Look at the damage that mindset can do, look in todays news, look at what has happened throughout history.

Speaking of a sophmoric responses... No one is trying to scare you off, we just keep asking you the same questions that never get answered. I even kept listening to those inane podcasts you keep putting out, in hopes you actually had the cohonies to ask just one of question put forth here. We simply added to this thread everytime you posted another "Jerry is a Prophet and I can Prove It" podcast or whatever you want to call it.


The bottom line is the thread was getting redundant and boring. You need some new material. But I have an idea about how we could liven this thing up again. Why don't we address what you believe as Pagans or wicca or whatever. Let me ask some hard questions about your beliefs.

Sure, right after you do the same with Jerry.


Let's face it. Your beliefs are a bit outside the mainstream and there's some things that are just as hard to believe as some of Jerry's claims. So is there one of you that feels up to answering some direct and pointed questions? Is there someone out there that can handle it?

I am sure that if you ask us questions in the same manner you ask Jerry, anyone could handle it. However, feel free to ask anything you want of me, after you ask Jerry, on the Podcast, the questions I asked you to ask him. That seems fair to me...


vantages you have over me is that you are on your own turf and are surrounded by allies.

Ahhhh... just like Jerry and you are allies?


I'd be willing face off with you and see what we can discern about your beliefs and what we might expose as questionable.

So there's a challenge. Let's see if anyone steps up and addresses my questions and comments like I did with you. I'll be watching.

I am sure that you wouldn't have any problem whatsoever coming up with extremely hard questions for us here. I do find it very interesting that you would be willing to ask "hard" questions of us but not of Jerry. Is there another agenda at work there? Your offer is disingenuous at best, however ask away, after you ask Jerry my questions on your Podcast. Afterall, dissemination of information, not proselytization, is the purpose of a message board.

[Tobias]

Tobias,

... As far as you being a Prophet...if you are great. But I'll tell you this. What I've found is that prophets are humble people. And you show and arrogance that is not typical of this kind of person. You're attempts at humor or cleverness fall short.



IOW, you ignored me because you didn't see anything marketable here in your line of work.

That's ok, Mike. I'm a humbled man. My goal is to learn from these experiences, and I'm getting what I came here for. I don't mean to be hostile... I was sucked into this conversation with the best of intentions really.

Anyway, good luck with what you do.

[Ptah]

Ptah,

You must be a False Prophet then. ;)

lolol


Jesus was an exorcist, and cast out many "unclean spirits." Followers for the past 2000 years have accumulated at least a little bit of knowledge along those lines.

At least according to the Bible, Josephus called him "that Egyptian necromancer". Demon exorcism and its belief doesn't have its roots in the Bible. Egyptian Sem priests were also exorcists. They even had a god for it, KhensuNeferHetep.


Or, are you one of those Pagans who thinks Christianity is not a valid spiritual path, and nothing but a big black mark on our history?

I feel that the greater part of my life was searching that path only to find it had no validity to my life.


Sylvia Browne doesn't speak for God, but channels her spirit guide Francine. (I don't really like that setup).

FYI, I don't buy into the Sylvia Brown experience either.


I can tell when someone is speaking for God or not. I don't know exactly how. Over the years I've developed the ability to focus in on the Spirit of my God, and know when he's doing/speaking or not.

I can tell when the Lord or Lady is speaking to me. I have been told many times that a God or Goddess told someone to tell me something. They have been wrong 100% of the time and I would say at least 90% of those were trying to bend my will or make me submit. The other 10% were well intentioned but misguided or delusional.


Perhaps that is one of the reason he would choose to speak through prophets rather than through other means. Being a prophet involves more than just your mouth (or ass in Balaam's case!) Ideally it encompasses your entire life, to where most everything you do is a testimony of what God wished for Mankind. The Bible is generally very frank about how God's people fail, just to keep us from getting confused.

Prophets didn't have the Bible. They spoke outside their organized faiths and were not usually considered prophets until after their deaths. They didn't speak of Satan or demons but of God's wrath because of the breaking of certain covenants.


Ideally I do think that God wants to speak to each of us in his own way. Prophets are just tools to get us started in hearing his voice, and hopefully dependable sources for confirmation when we aren't so sure at times.

Gods and Goddesses have no need to have their message carried to another by man. Though we would like to think we are an integral part of the process, thats just hubris. I have heard the voice of both Gods and Goddesses, sometimes they were audible, sometimes I heard their voice in the placement plants or animals that suddenly appear to relay a message. Sometimes, I hear them in the sunset or in a shooting star, sometimes it is simply three women giving 1/3 of an answer and sometimes its just a slap upside the head. Yet in all those instances I wasn't once told to speak on the gods behalf. Those were all personal experiences, the only way one can experince the divine. I can't experience a single thing related by or experienced by another. And neither can I hear the voice of god through a prophet.

Boy would I be ticked if Ptah or Sekhmet sent someone to speak to me on their behalf. Afterall I am here, waiting and listening...

[Ptah]

Tobias,

I haven't given up my quest with Jerry or the show. That continues. It's simply that I've answered questions and comments here and it's like pounding my head against the wall.

You have answered repeatedly the same questions, those you wished to answer. I have many unanswered questions still outstanding. Care to give them a shot?


I can't believe you think that all we are doing would revolve around this board or you. I can assure you that it has been only a minor benefit. It's more an interesting aside. As far as you being a Prophet...if you are great. But I'll tell you this. What I've found is that prophets are humble people. And you show and arrogance that is not typical of this kind of person. You're attempts at humor or cleverness fall short.

I don't know why don't we let you the reader figure that out for yourselves. I don't know Tobias but this man claims that god speaks through him. Does god speak through this man? Does he have divine gifts? I don't know, I only know there is something special about him. You'll have to decide that for yourselves, in the next four posts we will discern whether this man is truly a prophet of god, does healing works, has been known to levitate, speaks with the voices of angels and has god speak though him.... or not.

Tobias, how are you today? Lets get right into this with heavyhitting, no hold barred questions.

How long has God spoken through you?

Tell me about the first time you felt God speaking through you.

Now, I don't want anyone to think I believe this because I don't know if I do or not.. but what about the miracles god has performed through you, tell me about those, Tobias.

What about those who say you are arrogant, are they demonic and can they be healed?

Tobias, tell us about the lady who didn't listen...

Tobias claims to be a Prophet, I don't know maybe he is, maybe he isn't thats not for me to decide. Search your hearts and see if you think godly wonderful man is indeed a Prophet of God.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

This is really pretty funny. I look at this thread and there are some reasonable and intelligent people here. On the other hand we have got some out here that are little more then children. Some of you are just flat out in a Jr. High mob mentality. Then there are some that act nice and then when they don't get what they want they join the mob. Grow up!

I've been away from this thread is for a few reasons. First of all I have a life and I don't have as much time to devote to message boards as some of you obviously do. Secondly, as I said before, initially I posted here by accident. For awhile it was kind of interesting but ultimately it got tedius. I mean how long can you listen to the same sophmoric comments before it get's old. Or maybe I was embarrassed be cause I was found out. You realized that I was covertly trying to convert each an every one of you. Yeah right!!! Like it matters to me what you believe. I'm not a prophet, I'm just a radio guy. I have nothing to gain by converting you or anybody. Besides if God wanted you converted he could do it without my help. Regarding the verification of this situation in Arizona. The reason we haven't addressed that is because we're not here to hurt people. Jerry and I decided that by exposing the names we could hurt innocent people and open up ourselves to lawsuits. We don't need that fight. We have nothing to gain from it. Maybe you think you scared me off. Hardly! You don't scare me. Jerry once said that fear is the opposite of faith. Frankly, I'll go the way of faith everytime.

The bottom line is the thread was getting redundant and boring. You need some new material. But I have an idea about how we could liven this thing up again. Why don't we address what you believe as Pagans or wicca or whatever. Let me ask some hard questions about your beliefs. Let's face it. Your beliefs are a bit outside the mainstream and there's some things that are just as hard to believe as some of Jerry's claims. So is there one of you that feels up to answering some direct and pointed questions? Is there someone out there that can handle it? The advantages you have over me is that you are on your own turf and are surrounded by allies. Still I'd be willing face off with you and see what we can discern about your beliefs and what we might expose as questionable.

So there's a challenge. Let's see if anyone steps up and addresses my questions and comments like I did with you. I'll be watching.
OK. I will openly discuss my beliefs with you on the basis of an open exchange dialogue. I am concerned that you can't or won't directly answer honest questions put to you, or your prophet. Are the two of you afraid we will turn anyone who disagrees with us into frogs? If the answer to this is yes, lay off the tv, hollywood does not define who we are. In fact, no on but an individual here can define to you who they as an individual are. I don't grant the right to define me as a "pagan" to anyone. You must first come to understand we are first individuals who follow our respective paths as WE determine to. We, (most) of us would never surrender our right to this another. We are united yet varied. We all don't follow the same gods and goddessess. I believe we die, are reborn, endlessly. Yes my goal is to attain perfection, but I am not arrogant enough to believe it can be done in a single, or even a few lifetimes. I believe I learn from my mistakes, and each lifetime is to eliminate a couple of mistakes from who I am. I suppose that one lifetime it is posible I may actually attain some degree of perfection, then what? Beats the hell out of me. The one thing I do honestly believe is that all this living will prepare me for whatever will happen, and oddly enough, that is enough. I believe in treating all people with respect, as far as they will allow me. I believe I am a good person. I am male, I am a witch, and I am proud of it, and I do not anyone to validate it for me. I am what I am. (Oh, crap, a good man was once crucified for saying that!) I believe we are all a part of the same, and to the same we all belong. If you actually go to the basest of creation and existenance, you will find we are all part of the same original particle, it is simply a matter of how we are organized. I believe this is why I can feel the earth, the trees, the wind, and so on. I believe that no matter what path we follow, we all end up at the same place, ready to learn a new lesson. I am Hawk Shadowsoul. Now, bring your prophet here and let him answer for himself, for if he is truely a prophet of his god, then surely he has nothing to fear from us. Having you as a go between is tedious.
Yours In The Light,
Hawk Shadowsoul

[Tobias]

Quote:
Or, are you one of those Pagans who thinks Christianity is not a valid spiritual path, and nothing but a big black mark on our history?


I feel that the greater part of my life was searching that path only to find it had no validity to my life.

I'm sorry to hear that. I feel quite fortunate to have been able to find the spirituality I did as a Christian. My life has to have been guided for me to have been in the right place at all the right times and learn what I have. It's only been lately (the past few years) that I've expanded my search outside of that religion, and realized how diverse Christianity really is, and how few people find the same path that I did there.

It seems that Jerry found much of the same teachings that I did. From Kenneth Hagin to Deliverance and Generational Curses, I recognize most of what he's talking about; and have experienced it firsthand.


At least according to the Bible, Josephus called him "that Egyptian necromancer". Demon exorcism and its belief doesn't have its roots in the Bible. Egyptian Sem priests were also exorcists. They even had a god for it, KhensuNeferHetep.



Ok, this is something I'm VERY interested in. I've attempted at times to explain exorcism outside of Christian Cosmology, but haven't met too much sucess. You'd think with all the talk about ghosts and banishings and psychic self defense, people could relate to what I'm saying. But, i guess it's hard to get past the Hollywood image.

Do you think you could point me in a direction to research the Egyptian roots of this some more?



Gods and Goddesses have no need to have their message carried to another by man. Though we would like to think we are an integral part of the process, thats just hubris.

This goes so far against the grain of Christian tradition, that I can't fully comprehend the possibility of it being true. It is sufficiently backed up by scripture though to make even a good Christian wonder. And, judging by how fast hubris set in when I decided to take on the title of Prophet, you could have a valid point.

It has been a long time practice of mine to NOT accept guidance from anyone trying to step in between my God and I. I don't need anyone to speak for him, or tell me what God would have me do. But, is that the case for everyone? Or are there only a select few that can actually hear spirit voices? I believe I'm clairaudient, which gives me a somewhat unique ability to hear things others cannot. Couldn't there be a valid use for someone with my abilities to relay messages for other people?

Really though, direct prophecy (speaking a message for my God) is not something I've focused much energy on, nor done very many times. What I have seen and practiced quite often is speaking with divine inspiration, or "anointing" as it's often called. Instead of giving someone a direct "word form God", this is more of a directed message paraphrased by the speaker into whatever s/he feels most appropriate. This is what I've tuned in my sensors to detect whenever and wherever I hear it. My basic rule of thumb here is: When God speaks, I listen.

I suppose if I wanted to I could speak more often with this anointing. Sometimes it can be rather subtle... but a person who's truly seeking will recognize the validity of what is said, and take it to heart. I suppose that's better than declaring oneself to be a Prophet, and insisting that what you say is God's message word for word. Truth should be made available to those who seek, not used to slap people upside the head or get them to revere you.

[Tobias]

I don't know why don't we let you the reader figure that out for yourselves. I don't know Tobias but this man claims that god speaks through him. Does god speak through this man? Does he have divine gifts? I don't know, I only know there is something special about him. You'll have to decide that for yourselves, in the next four posts we will discern whether this man is truly a prophet of god, does healing works, has been known to levitate, speaks with the voices of angels and has god speak though him.... or not.




LOL! Mike keeps his genii bottled up pretty tightly in his jar, doesn't he?

That was my initial motivation for joining this thread, and declaring myself to be a Prophet. I thought it might help to have access to someone willing to answer your questions, and give out information a little bit faster than the way Mike was spoon feeding it.

[DoktorSick]

Why do we need a prophet from god anyway?
If a god and or goddess wants to communicated a message
I'm pretty they have ability connect witht he right person
with some dude on a street corner or a pod cast.
Hey if ancent people could figure out how to send smoke signals
to far away tribes it's a sure bet that wotan,zesu,jehovah-1 or
whatever needs to lay the word on some they can.
Without the add of a lone nut or drunk guy babbling in the gutter.

[Ptah]

LOL! Mike keeps his genii bottled up pretty tightly in his jar, doesn't he?

That was my initial motivation for joining this thread, and declaring myself to be a Prophet. I thought it might help to have access to someone willing to answer your questions, and give out information a little bit faster than the way Mike was spoon feeding it.

Stick around and I'll prove you're a prophet in the same manner MM conducts business.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

mm, still waiting. I guess I should lay down some rules though.

1) Bashing or insulting each others beliefs will not be allowed.

2) You or your (prefferably your prophet) will actually have to answer questions put to you by me.

3) Unfounded allegations are non admissable as fact.

4) I have to answer any questions put to me about my path, I will not answer questions about anothers path, that is not my place.

5) the discussion must be conducted in a timely manner. I work Thur -Mon, 2:30-11:30 PM, Central time.

If these rules are not acceptable, then don't bother to respond. If you have some rules of your own to bring , then do so.

[Tobias]

Why do we need a prophet from god anyway?
If a god and or goddess wants to communicated a message
I'm pretty they have ability connect witht he right person
with some dude on a street corner or a pod cast.
Hey if ancent people could figure out how to send smoke signals
to far away tribes it's a sure bet that wotan,zesu,jehovah-1 or
whatever needs to lay the word on some they can.
Without the add of a lone nut or drunk guy babbling in the gutter.


Point taken.

But, does reality work that way? Surely God (or the gods) CAN get a hold of each of us individually through whatever means available, but do they? Christianity is pretty damn sure that God uses spokespersons to get the message across. Whether it's the Bible, a preacher on tv, or a Prophet of God; there is most often a medium He uses to talk through.

I'm open to the possibility that each person has an equal opportunity to hear from their god. Mine uses a combination of my clairaudience with my clairsentience. Basically, it takes all of my functions to accurately follow a message. Logic and experience come into play as well.

Sometimes I get the idea that he sizes up my abilities, and stretches me each time by letting his advice be known only if I'm really attentive. I remember when I was developing my clairaudience, how he progressively spoke softer and softer; presumably so that I would have to apply myself just as much as I had to earlier before I had tunned in my hearing.

What evidence do we have though, that each person will be spoken to in a way they can understand? ...That almost sounds like a stupid question even as I ask it. Of course everyone will hear in a way they are able to comprehend.


Still, I remember all the times in my life when I lost sight of my path, and wandered off following ambition or other desires. Then a Prophet would come through the church, or a song would be written that spoke straight to my heart, and I would remember the path that I'd left behind. Other people are an integral part of my god's ability to give messages to me and to guide me. Not that the people themselves are anything, or that they hold any authority over what I do. They merely make themselves available to God to be used, and people who are seeking Him get blessed. I'm so very appreciative of those who have stepped in and done this, most of them don't even know of my existence. And I endeavor to extend the same favor to others whenever I can.

[morningstar2651]

Brief Introduction
My beliefs have their foundation in Wicca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca), with various other influences. I'm also influenced by Hellenism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism), Ásatrú (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asatru), Taoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism), Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism), Thelema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema), Ceremonial Magick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_magick), and Aikdio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido).

Polytheism, Duotheism, & Monotheism
I believe that all gods (Pan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28mythology%29), Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin), YHVH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yhvh), Tangata-Manu, etc.) are one god, which I refer to as The God.

I believe that all goddesses (Aphrodite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite), Freyja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja), Hecate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate), etc.) are one goddess, which I refer to as The Goddess.

I believe that The God and The Goddess combined form what I call The Godhead. The Godhead is comprised of all deities. It is both male and female, good and evil, creation and destruction, etc.

Dual Nature - (masculine & feminine, good & evil, creation & destruction, etc.)
Everything has its opposite - although this is never absolute, only comparative. Each contains the seed of its opposite. One cannot exist without the other. For example, day cannot exist without night. They can be further subdivided. For example, temperature can be seen as either hot or cold. However, hot can be further divided into warm or burning; cold into cool or icy. Within each spectrum, there is a smaller spectrum; every beginning is a moment in time, and has a beginning and end, just as every hour has a beginning and end. They are usually held in balance—as one increases, the other decreases. However, imbalances can occur. They can transform into one another. For example, night changes into day; warmth cools; life changes to death. However this transformation is relative too. Night AND day coexist on Earth at the SAME time when shown from space. There are always traces of one in the other. For example, there is always light within the dark (e.g., the stars at night), these qualities are never completely one or the other. The absolute extreme transforms instantly into the opposite. For example, the hardest stone is easiest to break.

Nature
I view the divine as being immanent in nature. Nature, however, isn't what most people view it as. It's more than where you go when you leave town to go camping. The town is within nature. Our planet, and all other planets, stars, moons, comets, etc. are within nature. I do not believe that anything exists outside of nature. Nothing exists that is outside of nature (unnatural or supernatural) because nature is comprised of everything that exists.

Ethics & Morality
I do my best to adhere to the Wiccan Rede. The most commonly used fundamental version of the Rede states "An it harm none, do what thou Wilt." An is an archaic version of the word "If". Here is the wording used by Gerald Gardner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner):


"[Wicans] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol [sic], 'Do what you like so long as you harm no one.' But they believe a certain law to be important, 'You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm'." - Gerald Gardner, The Meaning of Witchcraft (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1578633095/sr=8-1/qid=1140288255/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-5028657-3501403?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Gardner's version is pretty straightforward, but let's return to the wording I mentioned previously, and analyze the deeper meanings of the rede.

"An it harm none. . ."
Harm none through either action or inaction. Of course, this is physically impossible. Keep in mind that this is an ideal, not a law (however, according to Gardner, it is a law when applied to the use of magic). The obvious violation of this is to physically harm someone, however, other types of harm are included. A less obvious way of causing harm is to not defend yourself. If a fist is approaching your face at a fast speed - block it or move out of the way. Fight back if you need to. However, it is your responsibility to not cause equal or greater harm than would have been caused had it not been prevented.

"Do what thou Wilt" is also a part of the Law of Thelema. While everyone is supposed to interpret the Book of the Law (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm) for theirself in Thelema, I'll share some commentary. Keep in mind that these are my views and interpretations, unless otherwise specified and that I am not a Thelemite.

"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law." (AL I:40)
"Love is the Law, Love under Will." (AL I:57)
"The Law is for All." (AL I:34)
"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!" (AL III:42)
"Do what thou Wilt..."
First, this implies action. Get off your lazy butt and do what thou Wilt. Second, this doesn't mean "do whatever you want to". There is Will and there are wants and desires. Here is an example to illustrate this concept. Fred is a recovering alcoholic. It is his Will to overcome alcoholism. On his way home, Fred drives by a bar. He really wants to stop by for some drinks, but acting upon this desire violates his Will to overcome his addiction. These two points apply to the Wiccan Rede as well.

"Love is the Law"
I liken this part of the Law to "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust". Wiccans are supposed to follow the rede and laws in perfect love and perfect trust. So, what is perfect love and perfect trust? I believe that perfect love is agapē (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape). I believe that perfect trust is not blind. Perfect trust is trusting someone who is trustworthy. A person should not enter a circle if they do not have perfect love and perfect trust - It is detrimental to the group and their work.

"The Law is for all"
Within the context it is used in the Book of the Law, I believe it means that the Law may be revealed to all - it is not meant to be a mystery to the uninitiated. When combined with "Love is the Law", it may be a reference to agapē. I believe that, when combined with "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law", it is the condemnation of interfering with the Will of another. When a person is following their True Will - their life's purpose - they can't interfere with the True Will of another.

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!"
My subjective experiences and research are proof enough for me that I am following the path that I should follow. I believe that my path is not an appropriate path for everyone. Attempting to convert others to my path is contrary to my beliefs. First of all, I do not believe in anything we need to be saved from. Therefore, I do not need to convert people to save their souls. Second, I believe that nobody can truly know the True Will of another. Attempting to convert someone is an implicit claim to know that person's True Will. While it may be that person's True Will, I cannot know that it is. Finally, beliefs should not be discussed at inappropriate times. When someone asks me "What do you believe?" is an appropriate time to discuss what I believe. Proclaiming my religion or beliefs unprovoked is inappropriate. Now to pull another relevant quote by Crowley:

"I will have thee to know, moreover, my dear Son, the right Art of Conduct with them whom I shall give thee for Initiation. And the Rule thereof is one Rule; Do that thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. See thou constantly to it hat this be not broken; especially in the Section thereof (if I dare say so) which readeth Mind thine own Business. This is of Application equally to all, and the most dangerous Man (or Woman, as has occurred, or I err) is the Busy-body. Oh how ashamed are we, and moved to Indignation, seeing the Sins and Follies of our Neighbours! . . ." - Aleister Crowley, Liber Aleph (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/aleph_index.htm)

Responsibility and The Law of Return
The law of return is considered, by most, to be a fundamental belief within Wicca. The most common name of it is the threefold law, but calling it the threefold law causes some odd interpretations and misunderstandings. The threefold law states that everything you do will come back to you threefold.
That doesn't mean that by donating $1 to a charity that you will receive $3 from a charity. The best explanation I've heard of the law being threefold is that it will effect you mentally, spiritually, and physically. It works because of the interconnected systems (http://www.systems-thinking.org/systems/systems.htm) in the world.

I must take responsibility for my actions and the consequences, both intended and unintended. I do not believe in salvation. Too often I see the doctrine of salvation used to excuse inappropriate behaviors. "I can steal, but God forgives me, so it's okay". If my choices send me to Hell (which I don't believe in), then I accept responsibility for making my choices and will go to Hell.

Well, I think that's enough for now. If you have any more questions on something I covered, or are curious about something I didn't cover, feel free to ask!

[Ptah]

Point taken.

But, does reality work that way? Surely God (or the gods) CAN get a hold of each of us individually through whatever means available, but do they?

Sure they do and its not a matter of faith, either. In reality god(dess) have no need of a human messenger.


Christianity is pretty damn sure that God uses spokespersons to get the message across. Whether it's the Bible, a preacher on tv, or a Prophet of God; there is most often a medium He uses to talk through.

Thats because it is in their best business interest to have people believe that God only talks through them. I personally believe that god does not talk through them to me. Their egos speak to me, though.


I'm open to the possibility that each person has an equal opportunity to hear from their god. Mine uses a combination of my clairaudience with my clairsentience. Basically, it takes all of my functions to accurately follow a message. Logic and experience come into play as well.

And therein lies the rub. All of this reminds me of that gossip game where one person whispers something to another and that person in turn passes on the message. By the time the message goes all the way around it is never even close to the original. As fallable as we are, it just seems it is more prudent to talk directly if you have a message to deliver. If I take a message from you I have to have faith that you got the mesage right and if you claim it is from God, then I would also have to take that on faith also. The messenger needs no faith because that person has had a direct contact with diety. If diety delivers the message and skips the middle man, no faith is required.


What evidence do we have though, that each person will be spoken to in a way they can understand? ...That almost sounds like a stupid question even as I ask it. Of course everyone will hear in a way they are able to comprehend.

We can't ever be sure of understanding what a neghbor always means. that just human nature. I could shout for someone to watch out and still that person might walk in front of a bus. Still the most effective means of communication is direct communication, relaying the warning would be no more effective.

I think what it all comes down to is how we have been programmed over the years to believe that others hold the key to our spirituality. In fact, nothing can be farther from the truth. We are the only ones who can make the direct contact with diety thats so essential for a spiritual walk. Spirituality is a one on one relationship with diety, any time another person imposes on that relationship it is damaged, sometimes lost completely.

[Ptah]

Ok, this is something I'm VERY interested in. I've attempted at times to explain exorcism outside of Christian Cosmology, but haven't met too much sucess. You'd think with all the talk about ghosts and banishings and psychic self defense, people could relate to what I'm saying. But, i guess it's hard to get past the Hollywood image.

Do you think you could point me in a direction to research the Egyptian roots of this some more?

http://www.touregypt.net/egyptmagic8.htm
http://www.gratia.info/exorcism.htm
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-BesMaor-c4-0.html
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/spirit_possession.htm

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

I think what it all comes down to is how we have been programmed over the years to believe that others hold the key to our spirituality. In fact, nothing can be farther from the truth. We are the only ones who can make the direct contact with diety thats so essential for a spiritual walk. Spirituality is a one on one relationship with diety, any time another person imposes on that relationship it is damaged, sometimes lost completely.
Why Ptah! How prophetic!:lol: Couldn't agree with you more on this one.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Tobias, what I see as a major issue with Christianity is this, And I speak from having been one, All the teachings are only the fluff. The stuff everybody knows. It seems that if a deep probing question is asked, even by a member,a solemn, "God works in mysterious way", or, "This must be taken on faith", or, "Are you questioning your faith", etc., ad nausaum. I have Southern Baptist Preachers in my family, and it seems they are taught not to go into the deeper issues of their faith with the lay christian. Why? Because they seem to think it is beyond the uncalled to learn and accept. I have been a member of several organized christian churches through my life and have run into the same wall in each and every one of them. The only one that even tried to answer was the Mormons, and as a result I was a Mormon Elder for 13 years. Still, in the end it all became the same. And, fyi, the president of the Mormon church is considered a prophet. In my opinion, this simple fact is why christians need a prophet, they are taught not to seek and find for themselves, they are hamstrung in their quest of knowledge by always having to go to the same human source for any information. In my opinion that is the keystone as to why christians need a prophet. Mind you, this is not to taken as criticism in any way, it works very well for many people, and I will respect their path. It's just that I prefer the responsibility of finding knowledge on my own shoulders, and as Ptah has said, my gods know where I'm at if they want to talk to me. However, I also know where they are if I want to talk to them.

[lamoka]

Merry Meet to all on this thread (that includes you Mr. Mauren!)
I have been watching this thread almost from the beginning as well as listening to the podcasts.. and I have a few things I would like to say..
First to Mr. Mauren..
I'm not exactly sure how you posted here in error to begin with only because the name speaks for itself and the area you posted in as well does the same.
I have spoken to you personally because of a question I had for Jerry and he was "confused" by my question.. I still don't think that the question was answered (I know it wasn't by Jerry as you were the only one I spoke with via the phone) so I will post it here for all.. If a persons guiding force is
God(ess) or whatever name they choose to use, regardless of the way they practice that faith how can it be condemned in Gods(esses) eyes.. for example if I am Wiccan and all my faith is given to God(dess) and the fruits of my labors reflect his(her) place in me and my life and it is all POSITIVE AND LOVING AND GIVING ALL IN THE NAME OF GOD(DESS), why then would I be sent to hell or my generations cursed? "You shall know them by their fruits..." isn't that what Jerry said..
Also.. it would show you in a better light if you were less antagonistic and a little more accepting in light of the fact that you are supposed to be an objective seeker of truth (probably on a personal level as well as a professional one).
We are all on a journey regardless of the fact that we may be in different parts of the process and view it in different ways.. I do believe I stated to you that my belief is that we have all been given pieces to the puzzle and it's our job to get past the conflict and put it together.. it may make more sense.. and if it truly was an "accident" for you to post here, maybe it was God(desses) way of trying to broaden your horizens a little as well as a few peoples here.. are we open to the possibilities of the messages that may be coming from our experience with you or are we so RIGHT that everyone else is wrong..
My advice.. go back through this thread. List each question posted to you and ANSWER IT IN PLAIN LANGUAGE.. don't preach, don't hedge, don't prevaricate (sp?).. yes, no, I don't know, maybe, are all good basic answers..
and remember the questions are for JERRY.. it's not you that has made the claims of having God(dess) work through you (I don't like the whole prophet word) so have JERRY answer them.. it's only fair.
Secondly to some of the other posters on this thread..
I have found nothing but kindness and understanding and open hearts since I found this forum when first exploring the path of Wicca.. I am from a traditional roman catholic italian household and been searching for the past 8 years or so, ever since the church said that my husband wasn't a child of my God because he wasn't catholic.. by the Grace of my God he was sitting in church that day beside me to hear that..
it saddens me to see and interpret the sarcasm and anger that this thread has generated.. you have been given the opportunity to show your beliefs and paths in the most positive light within a venue that may not have been given to you on ordinary days.. and you have responded in bad form.. I have experienced better here.. although seeking in Wicca, I DO believe in evil, and I believe that it can warp even the best intentions when our guard is down and we are lax in our vigilance.. the negativity here is contrary to what my God(dess) wants for us.. we are not showing THEIR place in our hearts when our heads get in the way.. step aside.. look within.. listen.. is this the way they would want you to respond.. is this how they want the world to see and hear their children..
faith, love and peace
blessed be

[Elderbush]

I don't know about that. I'm glad that your goddess speaks to you and tell you how s/he wants you to respond on this thread. Did s/he tell you to share it with everyone? To become a prophet for your god? If people ignore it, it may be because not everyone here follows your god just as not everyone here follows the Christian god and so the message you are getting from your god may not be appropriate for other people.

I am Wiccan too and I don't believe in an evil that can seep into me and make me do thing I do not want to do. I believe in self-responsibility.

Shouldn't you have complained to the mods if you think that people have gotten out of line?

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

I don't know about that. I'm glad that your goddess speaks to you and tell you how s/he wants you to respond on this thread. Did s/he tell you to share it with everyone? To become a prophet for your god? If people ignore it, it may be because not everyone here follows your god just as not everyone here follows the Christian god and so the message you are getting from your god may not be appropriate for other people.

I am Wiccan too and I don't believe in an evil that can seep into me and make me do thing I do not want to do. I believe in self-responsibility.

Shouldn't you have complained to the mods if you think that people have gotten out of line?
I didn't see anyone out of line here, what I did see was some frustration at someone starting a topic, and then waffling on some questions. It may all be moot at this point, it seems mm has gone away.

[Elderbush]

Well, that is what I thought, too, but hey, if she is getting messages from her god, what can I say?

[lamoka]

With all respect.. I did not say this was the message I was getting nor did I insinuate that I was prophesizing.. nor did I say anything about evil making one do something they don't want to.. I did say that it can warp the best of intentions.. after all perception is a persons true reality.. if one has a weak point in them it may be subject to weaker tendencies.. that is where the growth part comes from.. although this thread has not gone from my mind for a couple of days while I was away and these suggestions kept coming so maybe there is a message in there somewhere from God(dess).. I am but a humble "child" still learning with an open heart and hopefully speaking with their blessing.. the words were given in light and love and hopefully received by those needing them in the same way.. please forgive any slights or disrespect..
blessed be

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

No prob, peace.

[morningstar2651]

In response to lamoka's post, I'd like to add a bit of commentary on inter-faith dialogue.

We may be the first pagans or the only pagans that mmauren has encountered. First impressions are very important. Our actions can become what someone bases their view of all pagans off of. Do we want sarcasm and antagonism to be viewed as an inherent trait of Paganism?

mmauren hasn't left the forum to my knowledge. His last login was yesterday afternoon. I am still awaiting his response to my posting my beliefs as he requested:


The bottom line is the thread was getting redundant and boring. You need some new material. But I have an idea about how we could liven this thing up again. Why don't we address what you believe as Pagans or wicca or whatever. Let me ask some hard questions about your beliefs. Let's face it. Your beliefs are a bit outside the mainstream and there's some things that are just as hard to believe as some of Jerry's claims. So is there one of you that feels up to answering some direct and pointed questions? Is there someone out there that can handle it? The advantages you have over me is that you are on your own turf and are surrounded by allies. Still I'd be willing face off with you and see what we can discern about your beliefs and what we might expose as questionable.

So there's a challenge. Let's see if anyone steps up and addresses my questions and comments like I did with you. I'll be watching.

[BlackMagicalCat]

And im still waiting for the great prophet to show up and start praying for everyone.

The one who the devils are calling,,,Gods cop.At least that is what he said.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

I too am waiting for him to come back and talk with me. It could be good conversation. And where did Ptah and Tobias go? BTW, I enjoyed reading you post, it was well written and thought out.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

And im still waiting for the great prophet to show up and start praying for everyone.

The one who the devils are calling,,,Gods cop.At least that is what he said.
Yeah, I would like the gods cop thing explained a little further also.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Tobias, what I see as a major issue with Christianity is this, And I speak from having been one, All the teachings are only the fluff. The stuff everybody knows. It seems that if a deep probing question is asked, even by a member,a solemn, "God works in mysterious way", or, "This must be taken on faith", or, "Are you questioning your faith", etc., ad nausaum. I have Southern Baptist Preachers in my family, and it seems they are taught not to go into the deeper issues of their faith with the lay christian. Why? Because they seem to think it is beyond the uncalled to learn and accept. I have been a member of several organized christian churches through my life and have run into the same wall in each and every one of them. The only one that even tried to answer was the Mormons, and as a result I was a Mormon Elder for 13 years. Still, in the end it all became the same. And, fyi, the president of the Mormon church is considered a prophet. In my opinion, this simple fact is why christians need a prophet, they are taught not to seek and find for themselves, they are hamstrung in their quest of knowledge by always having to go to the same human source for any information. In my opinion that is the keystone as to why christians need a prophet. Mind you, this is not to taken as criticism in any way, it works very well for many people, and I will respect their path. It's just that I prefer the responsibility of finding knowledge on my own shoulders, and as Ptah has said, my gods know where I'm at if they want to talk to me. However, I also know where they are if I want to talk to them.

Well,i think the reason there are so many,,ahem,,mighty prophets and great church leaders,,is because everyone wants to be someone,,,,powerhungry,,
while telling all just how humble they really are,,,.

But a humble man will take off his robe,and become a servant,and serve,because Christ became a servant,and we are to follow in his footsteps.
so im not impressed with those calling themselves great men of god,who have the devils shaking in thier boots(I have heard that phrase before).

And Im not a former christian,I still am one.

So I invited the great prophet to come and show us his greatness by praying for those here who need prayer,instead of inviting us to his infomercial to convince us he was great,,,,I mean ,,humble .

He boasted how God did many mighty works by his ministry,while proclaiming his own humility to the world.Then letting us all know how even the demons know him in the spirit world,because ,,well,he is so anointed that they fear him and take off running when he shows up,,with his humble (but great )presence.

As far as M&M goes,i like him,I am not sure if he is working for the Prophet,or not,but perhaps whatever his intentions were,he is hooked ,and will soon be forever changed by coming to drink from this pool.

And I welcome him.Now I must go to work.

[Elderbush]

With all respect.. I did not say this was the message I was getting nor did I insinuate that I was prophesizing.. nor did I say anything about evil making one do something they don't want to.. I did say that it can warp the best of intentions.. after all perception is a persons true reality.. if one has a weak point in them it may be subject to weaker tendencies.. that is where the growth part comes from.. although this thread has not gone from my mind for a couple of days while I was away and these suggestions kept coming so maybe there is a message in there somewhere from God(dess).. I am but a humble "child" still learning with an open heart and hopefully speaking with their blessing.. the words were given in light and love and hopefully received by those needing them in the same way.. please forgive any slights or disrespect..
blessed be


I'm sure you meant well. However, maybe you could phrase your suggestions next time from yourself, that you don't like the tone or whatever or you find it unethical instead of speaking for you god(s) which don't happen to be mine...sort like "mom doesn't like that" when I'm thinking who cares what your mom thinks.

Good luck on your path.:)

[lamoka]

After re-reading my post AGAIN to find where I so offended you elderbush I believe I have found the crux..
when I used the words "my God(dess) wants for us" I meant just that.. MY GOD(DESS).. I purposely did not use OUR.. I was stating a personal belief in my MY PERSONAL GOD(DESS) not trying to tell anyone that it was theirs.. again a persons reality is in THEIR PERCEPTION.. I was stating my belief as was asked by an earlier thread by Mr. Mauren.. and if you recall I also asked that people stop and listen to what THEIR BELIEF STRUCTURE MIGHT TELL THEM.. I'm open to wherever the message may come from..
and I believe I did state that this was my belief in the whole situation from the beginning..
blessed be

[Elderbush]

Yep, that was it, plus the THEIR BELIEF STRUCTURE MIGHT TELL THEM part. My belief structure says absolutely nothing about how to post but my ethical system is another matter.

Reading this thread I'm beginning to see that there is a wider chasm between the Christian view of the world and that of pagans than I thought. It is a very different way of thinking and easily causes misunderstandings.

[lamoka]

How do you compartmentalize the aspects of yourself.. my belief structure is the basis for ALL that I am, It is the reason I am.. it is the grounding on which all else is based.. ethics included.. it answers the question "who are you" not "what are you"..
maybe that is the chasm you speak of..
blessed be

[Elderbush]

I'm sorry. I was translating "religion" for belief structure. My relationship to my gods is the most important thing in my life. However the gods do not give me many laws (ethics) about how to live. Part of my ethics comes from the land I live in (my culture), some from empathy for others, some because of political beliefs, some from my job, some from my family. Some also come from my gods, of course, and the law of return is always around to keep things in check.

The answer to "who are you" is very complicated, in my world.

[lamoka]

The way I was raised "who you are" was always answered for me so that is what I grew up "knowing".. when asked "what you are" it has always been in relation to my religion (I don't use the word religion in relation to my faith anymore) .. as I've searched and hopefully learned I have found that when I take "the world" out of it (society type world), who I am is fairly simple.. I am a child, servent, believer, follower (add your own :) ) of my God(dess) and I'm just getting to know the Goddess as no one in my world ever spoke of her in the way I am now learning.. the way I act, the things I say, the deeds I do, the love I give, the needs I fulfill, I hope is a direct reflection of their growing place in me and my life..
there is so much truth in what you say about the influence of culture and life experience.. thank you so much for hanging with me in this discussion and helping me gain a different perspective to my world.. and one into yours..
blessed be

[Elderbush]

Every discussion like this helps me as well develop and grow. I too enjoyed it.:)

[Ptah]

I too am waiting for him to come back and talk with me. It could be good conversation. And where did Ptah and Tobias go? BTW, I enjoyed reading you post, it was well written and thought out.

Nothing to respond to that I have read.. still waiting on MM.

[Tobias]

Sure they do and its not a matter of faith, either. In reality god(dess) have no need of a human messenger.

Thats because it is in their best business interest to have people believe that God only talks through them. I personally believe that god does not talk through them to me. Their egos speak to me, though.

The "best business interest" and ego of the preacher set aside, it seems that my experience differs from yours quite a bit. I have heard the voice of my god speak to me countless hundreds (if not thousands) of times through the message given by another person. Sometimes this has been through direct prophecy. More often than not though it has been through "anointed" sermons.




And therein lies the rub. All of this reminds me of that gossip game where one person whispers something to another and that person in turn passes on the message. By the time the message goes all the way around it is never even close to the original. As fallible as we are, it just seems it is more prudent to talk directly if you have a message to deliver. If I take a message from you I have to have faith that you got the message right and if you claim it is from God, then I would also have to take that on faith also. The messenger needs no faith because that person has had a direct contact with deity. If diety delivers the message and skips the middle man, no faith is required.

Theoretically, modern day prophets are supposed to only confirm what God is saying to you. Jesus said: "My sheep hear my voice". Each person is supposed to be able to hear God for themselves. But, God has also ordained certain people to the job of hearing from Him, and relating these messages to others.

I can understand what you're saying about having a middle-man though Ptah. In practice this can happen quite often. It is just as much the fault of the followers as it is of the leader, IMO. We have a responsibility not to set anyone up in that kind of position between us and our god. One thing that has really caused me to separate myself from the Prophetic movement is their adherence to Discipleship teachings, with a hierarchy of people you're supposed to submit to because apparently nobody can trust themselves to hear God on their own.





We can't ever be sure of understanding what a neghbor always means. that just human nature. I could shout for someone to watch out and still that person might walk in front of a bus. Still the most effective means of communication is direct communication, relaying the warning would be no more effective.

I think what it all comes down to is how we have been programmed over the years to believe that others hold the key to our spirituality. In fact, nothing can be farther from the truth. We are the only ones who can make the direct contact with diety thats so essential for a spiritual walk. Spirituality is a one on one relationship with diety, any time another person imposes on that relationship it is damaged, sometimes lost completely.

So what are you saying? Do you believe all clergy (from every faith) to be in error? What about the diviners and seers? Isn't it pretty much a universally accepted fact that some people have gifts and abilities that other don't possess? And that these people should use these gifts, not just for their own selfish personal connection with spirituality, but also for the benefit of others? Or do you see Prophets as some how different from the rest of this bunch, in that Deity should be able to communicate directly without the assistance of Man?

[Tobias]

Tobias, what I see as a major issue with Christianity is this, And I speak from having been one, All the teachings are only the fluff. The stuff everybody knows. It seems that if a deep probing question is asked, even by a member,a solemn, "God works in mysterious way", or, "This must be taken on faith", or, "Are you questioning your faith", etc., ad nausaum. I have Southern Baptist Preachers in my family, and it seems they are taught not to go into the deeper issues of their faith with the lay christian. Why? Because they seem to think it is beyond the uncalled to learn and accept. I have been a member of several organized christian churches through my life and have run into the same wall in each and every one of them. The only one that even tried to answer was the Mormons, and as a result I was a Mormon Elder for 13 years. Still, in the end it all became the same. And, fyi, the president of the Mormon church is considered a prophet. In my opinion, this simple fact is why christians need a prophet, they are taught not to seek and find for themselves, they are hamstrung in their quest of knowledge by always having to go to the same human source for any information. In my opinion that is the keystone as to why christians need a prophet. Mind you, this is not to taken as criticism in any way, it works very well for many people, and I will respect their path. It's just that I prefer the responsibility of finding knowledge on my own shoulders, and as Ptah has said, my gods know where I'm at if they want to talk to me. However, I also know where they are if I want to talk to them.


Yes, I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, religion is like this for most people, Christian or not. I think that if/when several hundred million followers are added to the various Neo-Pagan religions, they will also look very much the same. It's just human nature to want to follow someone else; to center your spirituality around a person you consider your "hero."

Christianity was never like that for me. I felt like I owned the religion, and was free to define it as I pleased. Not necessarily into whatever I wanted, but into what I perceived as Truth. Much the same way that many Neo-Pagans take whatever they wish from the old traditions, and add common sense and the reality of spiritual experience to it. What you have in the end is what the individual may conceive to be what our forefathers intended, but to the recon it is far from the original.

I have been changing my perception of what "True" Christianity is for many years. I sometimes would like to think that I have discovered what Jesus and the Apostles originally set out to accomplish. But more likely as not, I have somewhere along the way departed from what could even be determined anymore as "Christian", and didn't even know it when it happened! Lol

Maybe someday in the future people will go marching off to war again in the name of Athena; while the mystics who can actually talk to her will know that she's had nothing to do with the campaign. Do we blame the religion, or is it just human nature? Christianity has it's faults, granted. But not too many people are spiritual enough to feel comfortable leaving their concept of Deity and trading it for another.

I have found Truth in many of the systems of Christianity, and spent time weeding out the error. It seems almost like a shame to abandon the religion completely now. I can't help but think that, quite possibly, God has a plan to use me within that religion, and has taken great lengths to prepare me for that.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

What is this? Have I finally found a balanced christian to have a discussion with? How utterly refreshing. I agree with many things you said in your last post. Even to the point about eventually there being blindly following pagans. To me this flies in the face of ANY religion or creed. If you can't be bothered to take the time to find out for yourself then you are a rudderless ship. Blind faith is just that, blind. I honestly believe that to come to know, a balance between the head and the heart is required. I personally belong to no religion and many. To really understand something requires thought, study, research, and COMPARING IT TO OTHER, DIFFERING POINTS OF VIEW IN A NON HOSTILE OPEN MINDED MANNER. So many times the latter above is discarded in favor of yelling and screaming. And then and only then, is it proper to follow your heart. Do I speak directly with my gods? Yes. Am I a prophet? No. Just a man in search of truth. The messages I receive are asked for by me and intended for me. Go check your own damn message machine for yours. Are the gods perfect? Um..., no. Are they gods? Yes. Would I run off of a cliff if one told me to? Hell no.
I forsee enjoying a long discussion with you.

[Ptah]

So what are you saying? Do you believe all clergy (from every faith) to be in error?

I believe it is the clergy's responsibility, in all faiths, to guide the faithful in their spiritual quest and give them the tools they need to walk a spiritual walk. But that won't make them any money, its not marketable and that leads away from their control.


What about the diviners and seers?

I have yet to meet one that performed to my satisfaction. That is why I learned to read an oracle (I Ching). Its pretty cut and dry and needs no personal interpretation.


Isn't it pretty much a universally accepted fact that some people have gifts and abilities that other don't possess? And that these people should use these gifts, not just for their own selfish personal connection with spirituality, but also for the benefit of others?

I guess a spiritual walk could be considered a selfish act, seeing as how no others should or truly can be involved. Sure those abilities should be used for the benefit of others, but how many seers or psychics will give a reading to someone without being asked?


Or do you see Prophets as some how different from the rest of this bunch, in that Deity should be able to communicate directly without the assistance of Man?

As far as the Bible goes, prophets were those who stood against their accepted organized faith. More often than not their message was "do it like we used to or else". Mostly the message was one of political and religious reform. However, their message was never accepted in their lifetimes and their message's only outcome is a retrospective "he told us so." I see no benefit at all in the outcome of the prophets message. There truly is no need for prophets, because no one listens to them.

[Elderbush]

I quite agree that some people are more gifted writers, etc., and should, if moved to do so, write books, whatever and perhaps some of the things that they say may resonate with with others. Or not. As far as I'm concerned they are sharing their truth, not their gods truth, because there is no way to check that out.

Deity should be able to communicate directly with the people deity wants to communicate with. Mine can certainly communicate with me. I see know reason to worship once who won't....or can't.

[Tobias]

What is this? Have I finally found a balanced christian to have a discussion with? How utterly refreshing. I agree with many things you said in your last post. Even to the point about eventually there being blindly following pagans. To me this flies in the face of ANY religion or creed. If you can't be bothered to take the time to find out for yourself then you are a rudderless ship. Blind faith is just that, blind. I honestly believe that to come to know, a balance between the head and the heart is required. I personally belong to no religion and many. To really understand something requires thought, study, research, and COMPARING IT TO OTHER, DIFFERING POINTS OF VIEW IN A NON HOSTILE OPEN MINDED MANNER. So many times the latter above is discarded in favor of yelling and screaming. And then and only then, is it proper to follow your heart. Do I speak directly with my gods? Yes. Am I a prophet? No. Just a man in search of truth. The messages I receive are asked for by me and intended for me. Go check your own damn message machine for yours. Are the gods perfect? Um..., no. Are they gods? Yes. Would I run off of a cliff if one told me to? Hell no.
I forsee enjoying a long discussion with you.


Thanks Hawk,

It's also refreshing for me when I find people on this board who can see past what they think Christianity is all about, and recognize that my experiences really are rather similar to what many Pagans are striving for. I'm not saying I'm perfect; nor that I've been able to avoid all of the pitfalls that are common in Christianity... but it can be rather tiresome to always have to contend with people's preconceived ideas. Not that I blame them... but still, it's a pain.

That aside, what is your opinion of the possibility of Oracles/Prophets commissioned to speak on behalf of the gods? You say that They speak to you directly; and I can't imagine it being any other way. But what about the inexperienced? Could messages be sent via another person, in an attempt to establish open lines of communication? Couldn't there be times when even an Adept strays, and needs a 'slap in the face' type of message delivered through somebody else?

Christian tradition has an established foundation for this type of ministry. There we have prophets/priests being both sought after for messages from God, and delivering messages that were not so welcomed at the time. Surly this cannot be a unique phenomenon only found in Judaism/Christianity.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Thanks Hawk,

It's also refreshing for me when I find people on this board who can see past what they think Christianity is all about, and recognize that my experiences really are rather similar to what many Pagans are striving for. I'm not saying I'm perfect; nor that I've been able to avoid all of the pitfalls that are common in Christianity... but it can be rather tiresome to always have to contend with people's preconceived ideas. Not that I blame them... but still, it's a pain.

That aside, what is your opinion of the possibility of Oracles/Prophets commissioned to speak on behalf of the gods? You say that They speak to you directly; and I can't imagine it being any other way. But what about the inexperienced? Could messages be sent via another person, in an attempt to establish open lines of communication? Couldn't there be times when even an Adept strays, and needs a 'slap in the face' type of message delivered through somebody else?

Christian tradition has an established foundation for this type of ministry. There we have prophets/priests being both sought after for messages from God, and delivering messages that were not so welcomed at the time. Surly this cannot be a unique phenomenon only found in Judaism/Christianity.
Well, here's my take on oracle/prophets. In the beginning of each of our paths, yes we certainly need help finding direction. I could imagine the unexperienced having their brains leak out their ears if they heard the voice of their god. But this is the time when the unitiniated are being spoon fed, in my path to prevent them from frying themselves or some else inadvertantly. However, iI see it as my responsibility to get them on their own feet as soon as their ability allows. And as a teacher, yes it is my responsibility to keep them on the path, so if they started running wild, I would curb that. Would I be acting as a prophet? Hmmmm......., i don't know. This is why I don't like to take students, the responsibility can at times be overwhelming. But the ones I do teach understand that until I say so, they do exactly as I say, with some leeway for personal expression. Would I allow someone to invoke a god at the beginning? The thought of it terrifies me. But, in the end, when they do land on their feet, then I forfeit all rights to tell anyone how, when, and where to use their gifts. From that point I consider them to be an "adult" in the path. Certainly, if they need help, I am there, but I make it plain to them that the burden of responsibility is on their shoulders, not mine. Could I refuse to teach someone? Only under specific circumstances, and they would have to be extreme. To allow someone coming into their power to run around like a loose cannon would be irresponsible of me.
For the last part of your response, I guess I would be suspicious if a god came to me and wanted me to be a prophet for some cause or something. I have a healthy respect for the gods, and a healthy mistrust. Throughout history they have sometimes proven themselves to be immature and selfserving. They have their own agenda at times, and I wouldn't pretend to be on the inner circle of whatever scheme they are up to at the time. And this is back to what I perceive as the single major difference between my path and christianity, I beleive it is normal to have this attitude. In christianity, I have just blasphemed. I would never blindly follow.
Now, what is your take on this?

[Tobias]

Thanks, Ptah, for the links on exorcism. I finally got a chance to look through them last night. Very interesting!





I have yet to meet one that performed to my satisfaction. That is why I learned to read an oracle (I Ching). Its pretty cut and dry and needs no personal interpretation.


So do you think belief could have something to do with this? People who don't believe that Deity wants to speak to them don't hear anything. People who believe God speaks to them through the Bible do often times receive divine messages therein. People who don't believe the Bible is true, don't see anything but a bunch of words on the pages. I don't think tarot, astrology, or any form of divination works for people unless they put some kind of faith in it.

Perhaps your views concerning prophets are subjective. If you don't believe your gods will ever speak to you through another person, then it only stands to reason that they would avoid that method.





I guess a spiritual walk could be considered a selfish act, seeing as how no others should or truly can be involved. Sure those abilities should be used for the benefit of others, but how many seers or psychics will give a reading to someone without being asked?


Yes, spiritual progress can be very selfish. I'm just coming back from having spent a bit of time relating to Theistic Satanism. I was shocked at how selfish my personal spirituality had become to me. I felt like I fit right in, having a god who took care of my needs, my desires, and my spiritual progress toward whatever end that may be (godhood?) Me Me Me!

I realized that there had to me more to this than that. Some spiritual development only takes place when we can step outside of ourselves, and assist others. That's when I started looking into the Prophet thing, and remembering that my God has used me in that capacity before, and the preparation to be of service as such has been an underlying theme throughout my spiritual journey.

Perhaps there isn't much I can ever do that doesn't have selfish benefits attached in one way or another. Perhaps selfishness and altruism are like the ying and the yang, neither one separate-able from the other. But still, I've seen where focusing only on the self leads; and now I'm looking for balance.




As far as the Bible goes, prophets were those who stood against their accepted organized faith. More often than not their message was "do it like we used to or else". Mostly the message was one of political and religious reform. However, their message was never accepted in their lifetimes and their message's only outcome is a retrospective "he told us so." I see no benefit at all in the outcome of the prophets message. There truly is no need for prophets, because no one listens to them.


Yes, this is one aspect of the Prophets. Christians who only see Prophets in this light do not accept the Prophetic Movement either. They believe that Prophets are a thing of the past.

This isn't really what we're talking about here. Jerry didn't claim to be that type of Prophet, but the New Testament version as defined by Charismatics. There are at least two types: prophets who are used by God regularly to deliver messages to others, and those in the Office of Prophet who have authority similar to, but slightly less than the Apostles. These would travel about curing the sick and casting out devils. I'm sure it's this latter definition that Jerry was referring to himself as.

Myself, I referred to myself as a Prophet more with a New-Agey definition: in that God uses me and speaks through me in a prophetic/seer type of way. In the Prophetic Movement, I never claimed to be one because I don't fit either of their definitions.

What I've been trying to pin down here lately, has been people's opinion on what I consider the essence of what a Prophet does; and that is speaking on behalf of the gods.

[Tobias]

For the last part of your response, I guess I would be suspicious if a god came to me and wanted me to be a prophet for some cause or something. I have a healthy respect for the gods, and a healthy mistrust. Throughout history they have sometimes proven themselves to be immature and selfserving. They have their own agenda at times, and I wouldn't pretend to be on the inner circle of whatever scheme they are up to at the time. And this is back to what I perceive as the single major difference between my path and christianity, I beleive it is normal to have this attitude. In christianity, I have just blasphemed. I would never blindly follow.
Now, what is your take on this?


Christians who learn to follow the voice of their God don't normally question His integrity. They do however, quite often question their ability to accurately hear Him. In essence this achieves something pretty close to your suspicions of your gods. If a Christian believes God has asked him to do something, and he can't see any spiritual benefit or make any sense out of it, he will most likely conclude that he has heard wrong.

Personally I've found my god to be VERY trustworthy. He can be a bit tricky at times though. Sometimes he ok's me to go do something that isn't really in my best interest. I guess he figures the lessons I could potentially learn are just as profitable (if not moreso) than if I avoided the problem altogether. I have to apply myself to double and triple check with him, to determine whether the lesson is really necessary or not. If and when I really really want something that isn't particularly good for me, sometimes attempting to get is is the best way to learn how futile the desire was.

My god treats me with a certain amount of respect in this way. I usually get to choose whether I want his advice and help, or not. As far as I can tell though, he hasn't let me down yet due to incompetence. He could just be really good at hiding it though! lol


One question: You say you don't trust your gods, yet you expect you students to place unwavering faith in you and obey your every word. Myself, I strive to be like my god, to follow his example and apply his methods of teaching to my children and those who might wish to follow me. Yet it looks to me like you have a double standard; what's good for you is not good for your students. Or did you have unquestioning faith in your gods up until you became a spiritual "adult"? Or, are you superior in integrity than your gods? ;)

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Christians who learn to follow the voice of their God don't normally question His integrity. They do however, quite often question their ability to accurately hear Him. In essence this achieves something pretty close to your suspicions of your gods. If a Christian believes God has asked him to do something, and he can't see any spiritual benefit or make any sense out of it, he will most likely conclude that he has heard wrong.

Personally I've found my god to be VERY trustworthy. He can be a bit tricky at times though. Sometimes he ok's me to go do something that isn't really in my best interest. I guess he figures the lessons I could potentially learn are just as profitable (if not moreso) than if I avoided the problem altogether. I have to apply myself to double and triple check with him, to determine whether the lesson is really necessary or not. If and when I really really want something that isn't particularly good for me, sometimes attempting to get is is the best way to learn how futile the desire was.

My god treats me with a certain amount of respect in this way. I usually get to choose whether I want his advice and help, or not. As far as I can tell though, he hasn't let me down yet due to incompetence. He could just be really good at hiding it though! lol


One question: You say you don't trust your gods, yet you expect you students to place unwavering faith in you and obey your every word. Myself, I strive to be like my god, to follow his example and apply his methods of teaching to my children and those who might wish to follow me. Yet it looks to me like you have a double standard; what's good for you is not good for your students. Or did you have unquestioning faith in your gods up until you became a spiritual "adult"? Or, are you superior in integrity than your gods? ;)
Didn't mean to come across like that. I was referring to not allowing them to work spells of certain kinds, or not to invoke until their ability can handle the results. This is because new magick user tend to always try and rush things, and really, the results could be very disasterous. Also, after a time they will stand up to me, and I use this as a point to help me know when they are ready to move on. I teach them to question, doubt, and suspect everything. In this way do I teach them to go find out for themselves. My absolute control over when they can start working magick is not negotioable. If this is unsatisfactory to them, then they have the freedom to find another teacher. This is simply due to the danger involved, and not my superiority. It is just too easy for a newbie to "burn themselves out" leaving an empty shell, or to get backlash headaches that make migranes look like a picnic. Or even to harm others around themselves. And I was also taught this way. I consider real magick to be the power of creation, and nothing to trifle with. And one other consideration, if it becomes apparant that they are getting into magick for the wrong reasons, such as to cause harm, then I will teach then enough to not hurt themselves or others, then seal off most of their ability. I know it sounds merciless, but then so are the results of misuse. Hope this cleared this up! And for the first part of your post, in my opinion, god(s) are just not always respectors of people.

[Tobias]

in my opinion, god(s) are just not always respecters of people.


Can you fault me then, if sometimes I entertain the thought, that maybe, just maybe, my god is somehow superior to yours? That the Christian expectation of God to be all-knowing and all-caring, might just put us in touch with a different sort of deity, or give us a different view or the Universal Divine?

I've found my god to be the perfect Father. As far as I can tell, he understands human nature very well. He also knows the path I need to take to achieve spiritual maturity. I have 25 years worth of experience following him, and feel no need to color my testimony in favor of Christianity. It just seems that he's the xtian God; but with a few twists they don't tell you to expect.

With him though, there is no learning magick. He likes to be in control of the outside circumstances that mold and shape our lives. I'm free to ask and participate in some of this (it is my life after all), but it really is more about submitting to the lessons than anything else. I suppose people who feel the need to be in control would have a hard time with this setup.

I don't mean to evangelize here... though I struck up my relationship with my god by being a Christian, I don't feel right about advising anyone to join that religion in hopes of finding what I did.

[Ptah]

So do you think belief could have something to do with this? People who don't believe that Deity wants to speak to them don't hear anything. People who believe God speaks to them through the Bible do often times receive divine messages therein. People who don't believe the Bible is true, don't see anything but a bunch of words on the pages. I don't think tarot, astrology, or any form of divination works for people unless they put some kind of faith in it.

Perhaps your views concerning prophets are subjective. If you don't believe your gods will ever speak to you through another person, then it only stands to reason that they would avoid that method.

Actually, I think it is the other way around. Those who have faith that god is speaking through a prophet will believe it. It takes faith to believe that a person has received a message from god for you. Plus, you also have to weigh everything this person says against what may or may not be a personal agenda and you must take into account that that person may be in error. It takes no faith to hear the voice of a Diety. There is only one variable then, "Am I losing my mind or was that really you God(dess)?"



Yes, spiritual progress can be very selfish. I'm just coming back from having spent a bit of time relating to Theistic Satanism. I was shocked at how selfish my personal spirituality had become to me. I felt like I fit right in, having a god who took care of my needs, my desires, and my spiritual progress toward whatever end that may be (godhood?) Me Me Me!

I realized that there had to me more to this than that. Some spiritual development only takes place when we can step outside of ourselves, and assist others. That's when I started looking into the Prophet thing, and remembering that my God has used me in that capacity before, and the preparation to be of service as such has been an underlying theme throughout my spiritual journey.

Perhaps there isn't much I can ever do that doesn't have selfish benefits attached in one way or another. Perhaps selfishness and altruism are like the ying and the yang, neither one separate-able from the other. But still, I've seen where focusing only on the self leads; and now I'm looking for balance.


Anytime you take your eyes off diety and place them on yourself you will lose that personal connection I keep talking about. If you are truly in a spiritual walk you become a servant to both God(dess) and man. This does not mean that you are to be the intercessor, only that you have been shown the way, in order to guide others and show them the process.


Yes, this is one aspect of the Prophets. Christians who only see Prophets in this light do not accept the Prophetic Movement either. They believe that Prophets are a thing of the past.

This isn't really what we're talking about here. Jerry didn't claim to be that type of Prophet, but the New Testament version as defined by Charismatics. There are at least two types: prophets who are used by God regularly to deliver messages to others, and those in the Office of Prophet who have authority similar to, but slightly less than the Apostles. These would travel about curing the sick and casting out devils. I'm sure it's this latter definition that Jerry was referring to himself as.

Myself, I referred to myself as a Prophet more with a New-Agey definition: in that God uses me and speaks through me in a prophetic/seer type of way. In the Prophetic Movement, I never claimed to be one because I don't fit either of their definitions.

What I've been trying to pin down here lately, has been people's opinion on what I consider the essence of what a Prophet does; and that is speaking on behalf of the gods.

The charismatic movement is New Age, comparitively speaking. All the definitions do, that they come up with, is muddy the water of a true spiritual walk.

You said earlier that I don't believe that God(dess) speaks through people to me, nothing could be further from the truth. Many times I have had people give me information that I was seeking and I knew it was an answer from diety. I doubt these people even knew they were being used as a tool of God(dess) but they were. Ma'at spoke to me through three women, each with one third of the answer to a question I had posed to her. At the same time, I don't think that diety is limited to the physical human voice. In fact, I had Tatanen speak to me through the back right rear tire of a Suburban once. Ptah once spoke to me through a bag of Dove chocolate candy (both long stories). Geb has spoken to me through the placement of chickweed on my property. Sekhmet gave me a sign, I was once seeking, through a book called The Alchemists Handbook. One of the gods (don't know which) told me that I was about to get robbed by sending me a racoon to warn me. (wish I had listened to that one) The voice of diety is all around us speaking, pretty much all of the time. Most often we just don't understand the language being presented.

What I will say about the people who I knew brought me the message from diety, not one of those people told me they received a message from god. However, had the racoon spoke to me told me he had a message from god .... I think I would have believed that... lol... then again it would have been a miracle for a Racoon to speak.

[Ptah]

Can you fault me then, if sometimes I entertain the thought, that maybe, just maybe, my god is somehow superior to yours? That the Christian expectation of God to be all-knowing and all-caring, might just put us in touch with a different sort of deity, or give us a different view or the Universal Divine?

The Christian expectation is that suddenly Jehovah became a nice perfect father and Satan took over his role of being an ass, because why? Because God killed his son? That makes no sense, why if this god is so loving didn't he just forgive those who sinned and chalk it up to his own poor design of the human psyche. If he is all knowing, what is the point of torturing his chosen people throughout the ages, when he already knew what they were going to do? That is a sadistic act of jealousy, not love. Love is not possesive, it is freely given with no expectation of return.


It just seems that he's the xtian God; but with a few twists they don't tell you to expect.

Interesting, considering Jesus wasn't a Christian... he was a Baptist, though.

[Ptah]

Didn't mean to come across like that. I was referring to not allowing them to work spells of certain kinds, or not to invoke until their ability can handle the results. This is because new magick user tend to always try and rush things, and really, the results could be very disasterous. Also, after a time they will stand up to me, and I use this as a point to help me know when they are ready to move on. I teach them to question, doubt, and suspect everything. In this way do I teach them to go find out for themselves. My absolute control over when they can start working magick is not negotioable. If this is unsatisfactory to them, then they have the freedom to find another teacher. This is simply due to the danger involved, and not my superiority. It is just too easy for a newbie to "burn themselves out" leaving an empty shell, or to get backlash headaches that make migranes look like a picnic. Or even to harm others around themselves. And I was also taught this way. I consider real magick to be the power of creation, and nothing to trifle with. And one other consideration, if it becomes apparant that they are getting into magick for the wrong reasons, such as to cause harm, then I will teach then enough to not hurt themselves or others, then seal off most of their ability. I know it sounds merciless, but then so are the results of misuse. Hope this cleared this up! And for the first part of your post, in my opinion, god(s) are just not always respectors of people.

When I began our temple here and accepted students all they wanted to learn was Magick. I spent the first 2 years teaching them spirituality. Of course I lost most of them because most of them just wanted was a fast track to the power. There was no discipline in them, they couldn't even control their emotions much less their own will. Of course, I had many other pagan teachers who said I was wrong because that is not the way everyone does it. But I looked at the results of their work and the destruction caused because of ignoring what I consider to be the most important part of what we do and that is a connection the highest power.

I wouldn't say that I control when people in our temple begin to work magicks because it is really too easy to find the information out there and everybody has the right to screw up their lives. What I do not do is teach them a single thing until I think they are ready. Afterall, you can't give a toddler a loaded gun, tell them not to play with it and expect them not to pull the trigger.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

When I began our temple here and accepted students all they wanted to learn was Magick. I spent the first 2 years teaching them spirituality. Of course I lost most of them because most of them just wanted was a fast track to the power. There was no discipline in them, they couldn't even control their emotions much less their own will. Of course, I had many other pagan teachers who said I was wrong because that is not the way everyone does it. But I looked at the results of their work and the destruction caused because of ignoring what I consider to be the most important part of what we do and that is a connection the highest power.

I wouldn't say that I control when people in our temple begin to work magicks because it is really too easy to find the information out there and everybody has the right to screw up their lives. What I do not do is teach them a single thing until I think they are ready. Afterall, you can't give a toddler a loaded gun, tell them not to play with it and expect them not to pull the trigger.
Very well said. Sometimes my words have trouble getting my thoughts across.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Can you fault me then, if sometimes I entertain the thought, that maybe, just maybe, my god is somehow superior to yours? That the Christian expectation of God to be all-knowing and all-caring, might just put us in touch with a different sort of deity, or give us a different view or the Universal Divine?

I've found my god to be the perfect Father. As far as I can tell, he understands human nature very well. He also knows the path I need to take to achieve spiritual maturity. I have 25 years worth of experience following him, and feel no need to color my testimony in favor of Christianity. It just seems that he's the xtian God; but with a few twists they don't tell you to expect.

With him though, there is no learning magick. He likes to be in control of the outside circumstances that mold and shape our lives. I'm free to ask and participate in some of this (it is my life after all), but it really is more about submitting to the lessons than anything else. I suppose people who feel the need to be in control would have a hard time with this setup.

I don't mean to evangelize here... though I struck up my relationship with my god by being a Christian, I don't feel right about advising anyone to join that religion in hopes of finding what I did.
While I certainly understand your desire for your god to be superior to mine, I just can't accept it. I see in him all the faults and characteristics of all of them. It's not so much that I feel the need for control as much as I accept the responsibility of the burden being on my shoulders, and not my gods. I am a natural being, and accessing the power of creation is to me a very natural thing. I wonder why a god would deny me this right to use something that I am a living part of. The bible teaches that natural man is an enemy to god, and this is a source of confusion to me. I am from nature, a part of nature, and as such am natural. And I would never advise anyone to follow a certain path, that is up to them to find for themselves.

[Tobias]

Anytime you take your eyes off diety and place them on yourself you will lose that personal connection I keep talking about. If you are truly in a spiritual walk you become a servant to both God(dess) and man. This does not mean that you are to be the intercessor, only that you have been shown the way, in order to guide others and show them the process.

This is very similar to what most Christians are striving for, myself included. Up until a year or so ago when my god led me into the depths of Dark Spirituality, where I had to disassemble my religion and see how much of it was based upon things that were beneficial to me personally. I'm coming away from that experience completely content with my spiritual path and happier than ever with my god, yet also recognizing the need to find ways to get beyond myself, and lend assistance to others.

Being a Prophet is one way that I can see that I can help others. Sorry, but your arguments to the contrary have not persuaded me. I have been helped repeatedly by other Prophets, and feel I have the tools to do the same for others. I have been asking my god for several months now what I can do for him in return for all the assistance he has given me over the years. He insists that I owe him nothing. Nevertheless, I do wish to show my appreciation by offering my services if he'll accept. Speaking on his behalf is something that seems quite simple for me (based upon my experience). If that's all he's asking for right now, then I'll have to be satisfied in doing it to the best of my abilities.





What I will say about the people who I knew brought me the message from diety, not one of those people told me they received a message from god. However, had the racoon spoke to me told me he had a message from god .... I think I would have believed that... lol... then again it would have been a miracle for a Racoon to speak.

Which brings up the next big question. If I am a Prophet of God, is it better to tell people what I am, or not? I noticed by not telling people when I'm giving them a message from god, they usually don't know. Or at least, I'm left to wonder if they understood where it came from. OTH, telling people I'm a Prophet opens up it's own can of worms. If I can't keep my pride in check, then it's better to not bring it up. But if I can remember that I'm only doing it as a service for others, then perhaps it's best to let people know what I think is going on.

[Tobias]

The Christian expectation is that suddenly Jehovah became a nice perfect father and Satan took over his role of being an ass, because why? Because God killed his son? That makes no sense, why if this god is so loving didn't he just forgive those who sinned and chalk it up to his own poor design of the human psyche. If he is all knowing, what is the point of torturing his chosen people throughout the ages, when he already knew what they were going to do? That is a sadistic act of jealousy, not love. Love is not possesive, it is freely given with no expectation of return.


LOL

To understand somebody else's god(s), you have to view him as they do. Just because you read the Old Testament, and try to incorporate that into the knowledge of the Christian God, doesn't mean that those who work with him do. Even the Jews can tell you that xtians don't follow the god of their holy book.

Isn't it possible that I could read a few manuscripts concerning one of your gods or goddesses, and come up with something unrecognizable to you? Or that, because nobody has served them for so long, the true knowledge of them has been lost, and you are coming up with something completely different by depending on historical accounts?

Knowledge of the Christian God does not come from reading the Bible, no matter what xtians claim. It comes from other Christians. Even then, doctrine is often times a stumbling block.

[Tobias]

While I certainly understand your desire for your god to be superior to mine, I just can't accept it.




That sounds prejudice. Are you sure you aren't confusing me with every other Christian you've ever met? ;)


It's not so much that I feel the need for control as much as I accept the responsibility of the burden being on my shoulders, and not my gods. I am a natural being, and accessing the power of creation is to me a very natural thing. I wonder why a god would deny me this right to use something that I am a living part of.

Perhaps I mis-spoke. Mysticism only is what I've found works best for me. The Charismatic tradition that I came out of doesn't teach this. They believe they have a certain responsibility to enact God's power and blessings He's made available to them. On a practical level, I find it very similar to working magick. But I won't dare call what they do "witchcraft", as that would not only freak them out, but also open the doors for other xtians to criticize.




The bible teaches that natural man is an enemy to god, and this is a source of confusion to me. I am from nature, a part of nature, and as such am natural. And I would never advise anyone to follow a certain path, that is up to them to find for themselves.

Yes, unfortunately many xtians interpret things that way. But there are other verses also written by Paul that indicate that the knowladge of God is incorporated into nature, and people who cannot perceive Him there are without excuse. I personally don't see Paul as an infallible source, so... whatever. Truth is all around us. If the writers of the Bible got it down right, then great! If they didn't, then let's focus on what is true instead.

I see enough truth in Christianity to build a good foundation off of. But there's also enough crap to justify tossing the whole religion out. I can go either way. I don't think it's my decision to make, so I'll defer that one to my god. I get the impression he feels much the same way about Christianity as I do. Unfortunately, millions of people are locked into it, so he graciously goes to where he's needed. Shouldn't I do the same?

[Ptah]

LOL

To understand somebody else's god(s), you have to view him as they do. Just because you read the Old Testament, and try to incorporate that into the knowledge of the Christian God, doesn't mean that those who work with him do. Even the Jews can tell you that xtians don't follow the god of their holy book.

Isn't it possible that I could read a few manuscripts concerning one of your gods or goddesses, and come up with something unrecognizable to you? Or that, because nobody has served them for so long, the true knowledge of them has been lost, and you are coming up with something completely different by depending on historical accounts?

Knowledge of the Christian God does not come from reading the Bible, no matter what xtians claim. It comes from other Christians. Even then, doctrine is often times a stumbling block.

Your contention here is in error, don't assume that everyone who rejects your belief is ignorant of it. Some have searched it out well and found that path to be lacking and now search elsewhere. I spent nearly half of my life in the church seeking your God. I ran a Christian Book store for 10 years and am well read on the history and doctrines of your faith and others.

I know for a fact, the Christain faith is founded in the Jewish belief. You can't reject the foundation of your belief because it doesn't agree with present day doctrine. I also know that when asked, Jesus told the inquisitors that he had come to fulfil the law not to destroy it. Make no mistake Jesus was a Jew and he told his followers right before the Last Supper, "He who believes in me believes not in me but he who sent me" (John 12:44). considereing Jesus only referred to El as his father I don't see how one can seperate the two.

Christanity was a religion of the Jews before it was anything else. In fact, the inclusion of Gentiles into the Paul's church led to the first church split, which became the modern day church. The split was so bad that when Paul collected an offering for the poor Jews and took it to James, it was rejected outright. The original church considered Paul a heretic, not an apostle. Considering that and where all the passages are found about prophesy in the NT, I simply can't accept that authority.

On top of that, I have studied all those books that were not cannonized at Nicea and that is many more than just a few. Those documents were left out of what you read as the NT because they didn't hold up to the doctrine Paul's church wished to portray.

I find your last statment curious, why would one need others to understand ones own God? That sounds to me like the grip of the church talking not the voice of god.

[Ptah]

Being a Prophet is one way that I can see that I can help others. Sorry, but your arguments to the contrary have not persuaded me.

My arguments are not meant to persuade you, I do not proselytize and don't expect you to forsake your beliefs. I am giving you my point of view. You can believe anything your heart desires. However, there are many others who are reading this thread and I hope by presenting what I have found on my path that it will help them overcome the concept that one must rely on others authority to walk with diety. That is all..

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

That sounds prejudice. Are you sure you aren't confusing me with every other Christian you've ever met? ;)



Perhaps I mis-spoke. Mysticism only is what I've found works best for me. The Charismatic tradition that I came out of doesn't teach this. They believe they have a certain responsibility to enact God's power and blessings He's made available to them. On a practical level, I find it very similar to working magick. But I won't dare call what they do "witchcraft", as that would not only freak them out, but also open the doors for other xtians to criticize.




Yes, unfortunately many xtians interpret things that way. But there are other verses also written by Paul that indicate that the knowladge of God is incorporated into nature, and people who cannot perceive Him there are without excuse. I personally don't see Paul as an infallible source, so... whatever. Truth is all around us. If the writers of the Bible got it down right, then great! If they didn't, then let's focus on what is true instead.

I see enough truth in Christianity to build a good foundation off of. But there's also enough crap to justify tossing the whole religion out. I can go either way. I don't think it's my decision to make, so I'll defer that one to my god. I get the impression he feels much the same way about Christianity as I do. Unfortunately, millions of people are locked into it, so he graciously goes to where he's needed. Shouldn't I do the same?
Heh. No prejudice on my part. And I assume most people are going to feel at some time or other that their god is superior to mine. Frankly, I don't care who's god can kick who's gods ass. My path is one that allows my inner harmony to be at peace, and it is only for me. We should all be this way, and I am very surprised that as a christian, even you seem to have reached this conclusion. It is refreshing that you aren't one of the oh so typical organized religion sheeple. Perhaps this is why we can have such an informative exchange of information.
And glad to hear you realize that magick is an everyday part of life in working with deity. And you are so right about people freaking out over this one! I have know many who would run screaming in the christian world.
And Paul was so full of his own prejudice, and that is reflected in so many of his writings. I often wonder if his celibacy stance wasn't a result of his power struggle for the control of the church with Mary.
The bible would have so much more credibility to me if the different sects of the day had ben able to agree among themselves instead of turning the task over to Constantine. As it is the missing texts have created so many contradictions as to cause confusion and mistrust. And other than the apistles, the rest is second and third hand heresay, no insult intended here, and as such is suspect as to how much is the writers input and how much is simply fact.
And you approach yours the same way I do mine. It is right for me, my inner self is at peace with my belief, and I am content. In my soul I feel this is the only sane approach to ANY religion.
Charley

[Tobias]

Ptah,

Let me see if I can clear up what I was trying to get across. There are different views on what the Bible means. The Jews have their beliefs, and no amount of Christian scholars can persuade them otherwise. They reserve the right to interpret their holy book the way they like.

In the same way, many non-Christians try to quote Bible passages, and tell Christians what they are supposed to believe. They say that the Christian God is evil, petty, jealous, etc. This is not what Christians believe though. Non-Xians have created another concept of God from the scriptures; and can't understand why anyone would want to worship him. And it's true, nobody does want to worship this version of Bible God; neither the non-Christians who invented him, nor the Christians who claim to believe every word of the Bible.

Unfortunately, that is a very simplistic explanation. Christianity is a huge religion, with many differing understandings of God. Some branches actually do try to incorporate more of the OT type Jehovah into their worship; while others pretty much ignore the Old Testament.

So basically my point here is: Don't presume to know what "God" means to any Christian just because you've studied the Bible. Knowledge of God comes through personal experience, which, if you haven't had any yourself, means that you just don't know anything. Personal experience is related from Xian to Xian, so even in churches from the same denomination you're sometimes going to find very different applications.

Mystical knowledge of God is very tricky to come by. It appears to be present in most all denominations, yet not traditionally emphasized. Quakers and Pentecostals seem to focus on it the most, but even so often times miss it. Pentecostals are always trying to revisit the last "Revival", and Quakers... well ok, I didn't "get it" back when my family attended a Friend's Church, but I was only 11.

But I'm sure you already know most of this, Ptah, if you've studied Christianity as much as you claim. Like you say, there's potentially other people reading this thread. It seems to be a rather common fallacy that a person can read a few verses out of the Bible, and challenge Christians as to why they place their trust in a god like that. While this may work on refuting the belief in biblical inspiration, it misses the mark on discussions of who God is.


Now, considering how easy it is to miss what Christians and Jews believe about their god by only studying their holy book, what does that have to say about Reconstructionism? Can anyone truly reconstruct a "dead" religion accurately from ancient writings? I would think not; not that I really care though. Hopefully we make religion into what we individually want it to be, which is what I've done with Christianity.

[Ptah]

Ptah,

Let me see if I can clear up what I was trying to get across. There are different views on what the Bible means. The Jews have their beliefs, and no amount of Christian scholars can persuade them otherwise. They reserve the right to interpret their holy book the way they like.

In the same way, many non-Christians try to quote Bible passages, and tell Christians what they are supposed to believe. They say that the Christian God is evil, petty, jealous, etc. This is not what Christians believe though. Non-Xians have created another concept of God from the scriptures; and can't understand why anyone would want to worship him. And it's true, nobody does want to worship this version of Bible God; neither the non-Christians who invented him, nor the Christians who claim to believe every word of the Bible.

Unfortunately, that is a very simplistic explanation. Christianity is a huge religion, with many differing understandings of God. Some branches actually do try to incorporate more of the OT type Jehovah into their worship; while others pretty much ignore the Old Testament.

So basically my point here is: Don't presume to know what "God" means to any Christian just because you've studied the Bible. Knowledge of God comes through personal experience, which, if you haven't had any yourself, means that you just don't know anything. Personal experience is related from Xian to Xian, so even in churches from the same denomination you're sometimes going to find very different applications.

Mystical knowledge of God is very tricky to come by. It appears to be present in most all denominations, yet not traditionally emphasized. Quakers and Pentecostals seem to focus on it the most, but even so often times miss it. Pentecostals are always trying to revisit the last "Revival", and Quakers... well ok, I didn't "get it" back when my family attended a Friend's Church, but I was only 11.

But I'm sure you already know most of this, Ptah, if you've studied Christianity as much as you claim. Like you say, there's potentially other people reading this thread. It seems to be a rather common fallacy that a person can read a few verses out of the Bible, and challenge Christians as to why they place their trust in a god like that. While this may work on refuting the belief in biblical inspiration, it misses the mark on discussions of who God is.

Now, considering how easy it is to miss what Christians and Jews believe about their god by only studying their holy book, what does that have to say about Reconstructionism? Can anyone truly reconstruct a "dead" religion accurately from ancient writings? I would think not; not that I really care though. Hopefully we make religion into what we individually want it to be, which is what I've done with Christianity.

No one cannot, one must have that personal experience. No word of mouth, prophet or manuscript can relay that experience. I don't know what you consider a dead religion, though the very term smacks of prejudice. Afterall, you do worship a slain god, very much in the same way the Egyptians did Osiris. However, I can assure you that what I believe has nothing to do with any religion. It has to do with my personal experiences with diety and because it is a personal experience, I could care less who believes it. They must seek their own connection.

I am not a reconstructionist. I am not going to build a hypostyle hall, shave my body bald, start a templar order, do daily oblations or conduct morning processions nor will I baptize myself daily. I understand that the religion part of Egyptolgy was a religio-politcal organization, much like the Christian church of today. That was a partial reason for the downfall of both Egypt's templar sects and their religion. My understanding of who and what god(dess) really is came to me while I was a Christian, not afterwards, and realizing just how far off that faith was in that regard, I first took my search away from the church and then away from Christianity all together. Religion in itself is destructive because it is based on doctrine aka rules made by another for all to follow. How can any one person, who has never met me or know my life experiences and may not have even lived in this century, tell me anything about what I need for my personal spiritual walk? Doctrines are designed to keep the sheep in line, not to enhance a spiritual walk. In other words, I live my life by my tenets alone, not by someone else's doctrine.


It seems to be a rather common fallacy that a person can read a few verses out of the Bible, and challenge Christians as to why they place their trust in a god like that.

Why would properly quoting the Bible to a Christian be any more of a fallacy than denying the ecclesastical validity of half the book that IS the foundation book of the Christian faith? Christianity is not an oral tradition, its entire concept is based in one book and one book only. I will be happy to discuss anything and everything about your bible but don't think or make the assertion that I am misquoting anything. If you truly believe that I have, don't be highhanded or condescending, just show me where.

You probably missed this in the thread but I told you that I don't base what I believe on the cannonized text only. I have also studied the manuscripts that Paul's church decided to ignore as scriptual, the early church in its historical context and the true doctrine of the Christ (not the one the churches made up).


Mystical knowledge of God is very tricky to come by.

I had that problem once, so I looked elsewhere.

[wolf]

I think that there are prophets of The Gods upon the earth today, but I don't think that any of the guys with tv shows are it.

The awe and mystery of the divine is often expressed in everyday contacts and events ... a single word or sentence at the right time can carry the weight of a lifetime of lessons.

[OnyxStar]

Ok, this thread is getting weird...

[Tobias]

I don't know what you consider a dead religion, though the very term smacks of prejudice.


Really? I didn't mean it to sound that way. How else do you refer to a religion that hasn't had any followers for hundreds of years?




Why would properly quoting the Bible to a Christian be any more of a fallacy than denying the ecclesastical validity of half the book that IS the foundation book of the Christian faith? Christianity is not an oral tradition, its entire concept is based in one book and one book only. I will be happy to discuss anything and everything about your bible but don't think or make the assertion that I am misquoting anything. If you truly believe that I have, don't be highhanded or condescending, just show me where.

But Christianity is not about scholastic study of the Bible, weighing it's validity out against all dissenting arguments, now is it? No, it's about being narrow minded, and reading only filtered, Christian approved information concerning science, evolution, other religions, cults, and apocryphal books. Once a Christian crosses the line and starts studying the material for them self, they are then ruined for life! Lol

In the same way, you aren't expected to read the Bible and start coming up with your own ideas. No, it wouldn't do to have everyone thinking for themselves. I'm not saying, Ptah, that you misquoted the Bible or took it out of context. I'm saying that to the average Christian context, biblical content, in-errancy, and everything else that they say is supposed to be the foundation; all pales in comparison to the authority of the oral message affirmed by the Pastor.

Did I come across as "condescending" or "highhanded"? I've had a lot of pagans tell me that my god simply can not be the way I say he is, all because of a few Bible scriptures they can quote that indicate otherwise. My apologies if that's not what you were doing.

I do appreciate most of your posts, they make me think. I hope I'm not giving the wrong impression by only responding to the few parts I disagree with. :)

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Ok, this thread is getting weird...
I don't think it's weird, what I think it is......it's just different opinions sharing ideas based on where we are at now. Open exchange is a healthy thing.

[Ptah]

Really? I didn't mean it to sound that way. How else do you refer to a religion that hasn't had any followers for hundreds of years?

Its a backhanded way of saying my faith isn't valid. Besides what makes you think there haven't been any followers.




But Christianity is not about scholastic study of the Bible, weighing it's validity out against all dissenting arguments, now is it?

Sure it is or at least it should be.




No, it's about being narrow minded, and reading only filtered, Christian approved information concerning science, evolution, other religions, cults, and apocryphal books. Once a Christian crosses the line and starts studying the material for them self, they are then ruined for life! Lol

In the same way, you aren't expected to read the Bible and start coming up with your own ideas. No, it wouldn't do to have everyone thinking for themselves. I'm not saying, Ptah, that you misquoted the Bible or took it out of context. I'm saying that to the average Christian context, biblical content, in-errancy, and everything else that they say is supposed to be the foundation; all pales in comparison to the authority of the oral message affirmed by the Pastor.


And thats why I left the church, I will not turn over my spiritual life to anyone, much less a Christian preacher.


Did I come across as "condescending" or "highhanded"? I've had a lot of pagans tell me that my god simply can not be the way I say he is, all because of a few Bible scriptures they can quote that indicate otherwise. My apologies if that's not what you were doing.

I do appreciate most of your posts, they make me think. I hope I'm not giving the wrong impression by only responding to the few parts I disagree with. :)

I only quoted scripture that was valid to the discussion. I did not feel it necessary to reprint the entire bible. But if you dont believe the Bible...

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

OK, now I'm wondering if this should be in New Pagan.

And Ptah, you know those of us who follow the "old" ways are often ridiculed because we have no "books" to guide us, and no established format to follow. We have to deep search ourselves and seek so much harder than some.
I have old blood that leads me into a mixed path, and had one helluva time figuring out how to find compatability with it. Turns out the answer was too simple. Accept who you are, what you are, ignore the criticisim, and move on.
I find the discussion with Tobias pleasant, mostly because he doesn't fall back on the old "just because I know it's true" thing.
It seems you and I share a lot of common religous background. I also have a good knowledge of the bible, and other documents that were not included. And like you, found nothing in christianity for me.
It is good to have my inner self at peace with my spirituality.

[Ptah]

Podcast 9 is out. In case anyone thinks I was too harsh on MM when I posted that he had a hidden agenda. Its hidden no more.

[lamoka]

Cannot open the podcast at this time EST 12:13 pm..
Can't wait..
blessed be

[Ptah]

Cannot open the podcast at this time EST 12:13 pm..
Can't wait..
blessed be

lol, Must be the demon Electra.

[Tobias]

Woo hoo! He mentioned us on the show!! About a third of the way in Mike says something to Jerry about the Pagan message board where he posted this. Jerry acts as though he hasn't even heard of us... :(


Anyway, according to my sense of discernment, Jerry spoke a lot more this time using the Anointing. I haven't listened to half of the previous podcasts (due to technical difficulties and/or boredom at the time), but this one's pretty interesting. The last quarter of it they start rambling on about money topics... :yawn: but the rest is good.

Jerry discusses Witchcraft... and besides being understandably cautious of witches and Satanists, he does mention that witchcraft in his opinion (the bad stuff) can be committed by just about anybody inadvertently by just how we speak. He follows "Word of Faith" Christian doctrine pretty closely on this: that the "words" we speak have the power of life or death so we should speak words of faith not doubt. Many people, according to this doctrine, curse one another (as well as themselves) just by proclaiming out their mouths what they believe in their hearts.

I've found this a marked difference from what most professed witches and satanists purposely do with their time. Sure, there are plenty of satanists who feel the need to curse other people occasionally; but still, joining forces with negative energies that want nothing better than to drain people and lead them into spiritual traps is not what any religion I know of is about. Not intentionally, anyway. Christianity can be just a guilty of actually doing that as any other religion.

I wonder if Jerry would change his opinion of witches if he found out they don't go around cursing people all the time? Maybe he'd change his ideas about who all qualifies for the "10 generations of God's wrath"? Eh?

Probably not.

[Ptah]

Woo hoo! He mentioned us on the show!! About a third of the way in Mike says something to Jerry about the Pagan message board where he posted this. Jerry acts as though he hasn't even heard of us... :(

And fact is he does know about us, he has even spoken on the phone with one of us. I'll let her speak of that but diesn't that make you wonder about the truthfulness of both of them? Why lie about that? Did someone forget their commandments?


Anyway, according to my sense of discernment, Jerry spoke a lot more this time using the Anointing. I haven't listened to half of the previous podcasts (due to technical difficulties and/or boredom at the time), but this one's pretty interesting. The last quarter of it they start rambling on about money topics... :yawn: but the rest is good.

Jerry discusses Witchcraft... and besides being understandably cautious of witches and Satanists, he does mention that witchcraft in his opinion (the bad stuff) can be committed by just about anybody inadvertently by just how we speak. He follows "Word of Faith" Christian doctrine pretty closely on this: that the "words" we speak have the power of life or death so we should speak words of faith not doubt. Many people, according to this doctrine, curse one another (as well as themselves) just by proclaiming out their mouths what they believe in their hearts.

I've found this a marked difference from what most professed witches and satanists purposely do with their time. Sure, there are plenty of satanists who feel the need to curse other people occasionally; but still, joining forces with negative energies that want nothing better than to drain people and lead them into spiritual traps is not what any religion I know of is about. Not intentionally, anyway. Christianity can be just a guilty of actually doing that as any other religion.

I wonder if Jerry would change his opinion of witches if he found out they don't go around cursing people all the time? Maybe he'd change his ideas about who all qualifies for the "10 generations of God's wrath"? Eh?

Probably not.

Well he might change his opinion but first he would have to actually meet one. His ideas of us are based in fantasy and out of ignorance but yet he continues to speak as an authority on the subject. That tends to make me question his "annointing". Why would god lie to and through him?

[Tobias]

Well Ptah, truth is always subjective, right? Words spoken to one person could mean something entirely different to someone else. The anointing on Jerry's message could be there because the people he's sent to need to hear it.

One teaching in the Prophetic Movement is about a minister's "Set Measure of Rule". Basically, it referes to the jurisdiction of people that God has sent you to. I'm pretty sure Jerry doesn't show up here because he's not "called" to minister to you all. Either he knows this, or his God is allowing circumstances to block his getting involved here.

I, oth, am "called" to be here. Thus, I know a little bit better how to divide between the negative type of "witchcraft" that Jerry's talking about, and what you guys do.

[morningstar2651]

I'm guessing that mmauren isn't going to come back to discuss theology with me...pity.

[Ptah]

Well Ptah, truth is always subjective, right? Words spoken to one person could mean something entirely different to someone else. The anointing on Jerry's message could be there because the people he's sent to need to hear it.

Truth is also easily manipuated for those who wish to do so and to be honest I don't like his message. Its one of ignorance and hate and has no truth to it. Who needs to hear someone, who obviously knows nothing of what we do, tell us that we are evil people? Only those who need to feel morally superior, thats who.


One teaching in the Prophetic Movement is about a minister's "Set Measure of Rule". Basically, it referes to the jurisdiction of people that God has sent you to. I'm pretty sure Jerry doesn't show up here because he's not "called" to minister to you all. Either he knows this, or his God is allowing circumstances to block his getting involved here.

I, oth, am "called" to be here. Thus, I know a little bit better how to divide between the negative type of "witchcraft" that Jerry's talking about, and what you guys do.

Thats a cop out. You claim he speaks with the "annointing", to me that means his message is from god and therefore correct. The fact is his message comes from Jerry, via Kenneth Hagin, so don't try to justify his ignorant message of hate and prejudice to me by saying the message isn't for us. ITS ABOUT US.

Please expound on what the negative type of "witchcraft" is. Would it be overt and covert untruths so I can convince others of my correctness and authority? How about cursing someone for 10 generations, would that be negative witchcraft? How about a witch working in secret to expel the spirit of Christianity found in somone, is that negative or positive witchcraft? How about a witch going to a Christian message board and pretending to be something they are not, to try to convert someone to Witchcraft, would that be negative? How about making a series of podcasts trying to prove that a person is a psychic but doing it by saying that all Christians are dangerous hate mongers who base their religion on cannibalism and child abuse, would that be negative witchcraft or would that be the "annointing"?

Yeah, truth is subjective all right.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Truth is also easily manipuated for those who wish to do so and to be honest I don't like his message. Its one of ignorance and hate and has no truth to it. Who needs to hear someone, who obviously knows nothing of what we do, tell us that we are evil people? Only those who need to feel morally superior, thats who.



Thats a cop out. You claim he speaks with the "annointing", to me that means his message is from god and therefore correct. The fact is his message comes from Jerry, via Kenneth Hagin, so don't try to justify his ignorant message of hate and prejudice to me by saying the message isn't for us. ITS ABOUT US.

Please expound on what the negative type of "witchcraft" is. Would it be overt and covert untruths so I can convince others of my correctness and authority? How about cursing someone for 10 generations, would that be negative witchcraft? How about a witch working in secret to expel the spirit of Christianity found in somone, is that negative or positive witchcraft? How about a witch going to a Christian message board and pretending to be something they are not, to try to convert someone to Witchcraft, would that be negative? How about making a series of podcasts trying to prove that a person is a psychic but doing it by saying that all Christians are dangerous hate mongers who base their religion on cannibalism and child abuse, would that be negative witchcraft or would that be the "annointing"?

Yeah, truth is subjective all right.
Gotta go with Ptah on this one. At this point they have showed their hand.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Hey,am i missing something here?

Im still waiting for the great prophet to show up,and prophesy to us,and pray for those who need it.

Im a christian,and have been all my life,when the prophet anounces to his followers,that he is battling with a whole lot of witches(poor guy)he has all his congregation feeling sorry for him,and thinking that he is a mighty man of
God engaged in spiritual warfare.And we are the enemy.So when they see us ,it makes jerry look good to his followers.OHHH loook,a real witch!
Poor Jerry,lets give him some more money and pray for him,because he is being attacked by witches,and (who knows what else he has told them in his church about those here)

So,in the eyes of his followers,he is engaging the powers of darkness(they know nothing about witchcraft more than likey)And so he puffs himself up,by supposedly confronting the devil and his demons,so those who follow him will see him as a mighty man of God who isnt afraid to confront the enemy,and who has the demons running around scared.(Gods cop,he said the demons called him)

Hence,the lofty statement he said in his podcast,,,that even the devils know him ,and call him Gods cop.Most christians love witchcraft,but wont admit it.
They stand at a distance,because they were taught how evil it is,but being spiritually minded themselves,they find an inner attraction to the supernatural
,and are curious,but they wont admit it.With my little knowledge(and its small compared to those here),I started a blog on a christian forums,and I put some witchy things in it from time to time,and it is read daily.

Im not impressed with Jerry,but thats just me,and this is just my opinion.
What does move me,is a humble man who will serve and blss others in love.
That doesnt mean he cant preach,we all have our own beliefs,but I want to see the love of God in those who are claiming to belong to him.I want to see the hurting comforted,and I want to see all this mighty anointing jerry has,but I want him to get off his rearend,and come here.

But,well,he isnt called to come here.Well,then why send his followers here?
We are being used to make him look good,to those who follow him.

[Ma'at's_Feather]

Gotta go with Ptah on this one. At this point they have showed their hand.



Ditto

[lamoka]

Merry Meet and Greet to All..
Thank you Ptah for the consideration..
Let's hope I can put everything into a non-threatening non-judgemental piece here...
Okay..
I am a "used to be Catholic, gone seeking the truth, turned Christian, now embracing Wicca" kinda girl. :wave:
I believe ALL TYPES OF FAITH AND SPIRITUALITY TO HAVE VALIDITY AND PURPOSE. It is not for me to judge what that validity or purpose would or should be.
So it was with this mindset that I emailed the podcast with a question for Jerry to explore in his interviews. On 1-27-06 I sent the following question in reference to MY belief system at this point in my life. "Could you please tell me how Jerry makes a distinction of a religion being cursed and another not.. if God is the central belief of that religion is it still cursed?"
We all call our Gods by what is personal to us.. this going back to Yahweh, etc. and please realize that I use the term religion in my question but have pretty much extinguished it from my system of belief. It is WAY TOO AGGRESSIVE of a word when used by mainstream.
Anyway..
I receive an email back from MIKE MAUREN stating that Jerry was confused by my question and wanted to speak to me personally.. okay keep in mind that when I emailed my question it was with a personal email account I use to filter junk mail.. so he was not aware that I had found him through these boards.
I replied stating that I would speak with Jerry but it would be through Mike so as to avoid giving Jerry personal info about me i.e. phone numbers and such.
MIKE MAUREN called me to discuss my question.. we conversed about beliefs and such, I clarified my question to him and that was basically it. I NEVER spoke with Jerry. He was NEVER given the clarified version of my question that I know of because I have seen no response forthcoming. That is one of the main reasons I posted before being so disappointed in the way this thread started going and Mike Maurens aggressive stance. JERRY quoted scripture about how one is known by the fruits of their labors. MY GOD KNOWS MY HEART AND MY LABORS. HE HAS KNOWN ME FOR ETERNITY AND WILL KNOW ME FOR INFINITY. What completely amazes me is that neither one of them, Mike or Jerry, has asked any here of their fruits.
I found a definition once of witchcraft that roughly stated, "using herbs, plants, energy, etc and any physical or non-physical means to affect a physical outcome"
so when I thought about it witchcraft can be considered in the following categories:
* Any type of religion, faith, or spirituality
* Naturopaths, homeopaths, allopaths
* meditation
* energy running
* quantum touch
* acupuncture
* chiropractors
need I say more..
And one more thing.. why not address issues like poverty, starvation, serial killers, rapists, murderers, diseases, incest, molestation, war and a myriad of other topics on these podcasts in relation to what God wants or says.. and what "curses" these actions bring to the soul.. how can my trying to get closer to MY GOD any way I deem necessary WHILE HARMING NONE curse my children and on and on.. how is that so BAD in MY GODS EYES..
for awhile his first few podcasts instilled "the spirit of fear" in me that I was doing SO WRONG, but didn't he say himself that the spirit of fear is in direct contradiction to God.. who brought that fear to me.. was it Jerry or Mike Mauren.. and it's my belief that when you are the closest to God is when it irks 'evil, spirits, Satan" (or however you see it) the most. :rant:
blessed be

[Elderbush]

You go girl.:)

[Tobias]

I see a lot of similarities between Neo-Paganism and the Charismatic/Pentecostal branch of Christianity that I come from. After getting past the initial shock of conversing with people who believe in multiple gods, I realized that many of our methods of trying to reconstruct ancient religions from holy texts are much the same.

Back at the beginning of the Pentecostal Movement, someone got the idea that perhaps there could be some spiritual validity to practicing religion the same way that it's described in the New Testament. They noticed that people were recorded as having experienced something called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, so they worked for months trying to recreate the environment for this to happen. Once they tried "laying on of hands" then BAM! something happened.

Ever since then, people have been trying to recreate the spiritual experiences found in the Bible. Some people in those churches just don't get it, and try to fake it to fit in. Others have been finding new truths, ones that have spiritual significance, and are repeatable and verifiable by others who also have spiritual maturity and perhaps the psychic skills to validate what's going on. And, yet others are more academic, and find all the inconsistencies with our modern day practices and how they compare to what those in the past most likely did.

Probably the biggest difference between Neo-Paganism and Christian Reconstuctionism (if we can call it that), is that Christians believe their texts as infallible. This creates all kinds of problems, imo. Faith Healers may find early in their walk that they have gifts if healing, no different than similar people from other faiths. But then the Bible tells them that ALL people can be healed, and that Faith is what provides for this. So they preach that everybody can be healed, and by faith proclaim everyone they pray for as being miraculously touched; and then ignore reality when it comes back after the service and many people didn't actually get delivered from their ailments.

This problem I would attribute also to possible exaggerations that made their way into the Bible. We have to be careful in Reconstructionism to sort out fact from fiction. IMO, all we are doing is trying to find spiritual truths that have been lost over the ages. Some of the academics would have us repeat our forefather's errors as accurately as we can mimic them, though.

Which then brings us to the whole point of this thread: Reclaiming names and titles that were used before in the past, but have somehow developed in our language to meaning something else. ie. the title of Prophet.

Christians from Jerry and my background have reclaimed this title, and redefined it according to the New Testament usage of it. Hence the Prophetic Movement. Within this movement, we have people with psychic skills, who are able to validate certain things about the modern day ability of people to deliver messages from God. They have classified, explored, poked at and prodded those who seem to fit the description.

They have also had to separate fantasy from reality. Nobody has yet to call down fire from heaven like Elijah. People who think this ability is a prerequisite to being a prophet are not going to be able to accept the "reclaimed" modern day usage of the description of Prophet. And that's fine, really. Ever find it difficult to explain to an "unbeliever" what modern day Witches and Witchcraft are all about?

to be cont.

[Tobias]

So what is a Witch, and what is Witchcraft? As much as Pagans would love for people to understand them, most still think of witches as characters in Disney movies, or a costume you can buy on Halloween. We have to accept the fact that "witch" means different things to different people.

And what of all the people burned during the "Witch Hunts"? Do their practices fall under either of the two definitions mentioned in the first paragraph? Perhaps we need a third definition or qualification. Otherwise modern day witches might spend too much time sympathizing over the people who were accused of being witches and burned at the stake, when really, they don't have much in common at all. :)

On top of all this, Christianity has come up with it's own definition of "witch". Or two definitions, I should say. This fact isn't recognized by any of them... yet... but it's true.

The first definition of "witch" came about when good ol' King James thought he'd stick the word "witch" in his translation of the Bible to describe the shamanic practices of ancient Canaan. When the Bible now says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", it's no more talking about Neo-Pagan witches than it is referring to the little girl trick-or-treating at your door. Nor did it mean the victims of the "Burning Times". In fact, I don't know if anyone knows what practices exactly were forbidden by this verse, as nobody cares to take the time and search historical records to determine what the Canaanites used to do. I think that Christians are being very irresponsible in this, preferring to hold on to superstitious fear of anyone called a "witch", like the name itself carries some kind of evil presence with it.

This superstition is most probably what many of you object to in Jerry's teachings about Witches and Witchcraft. Much of what I learned in Deliverance Ministry was colored by the Great Satanism Scare of the 80's and 90's. Christians were not the only ones taken in by this, even many government agencies were looking under ever rock for evidence of Satanic Ritual Abuse. None ever turned up. Sometimes I wonder if Christians got that memo.

But there is one more definition of Witches... actually witchcraft this time, that some Christians have developed. Remember, unquestioning belief in the Bible means that sometimes you have to assign things biblical descriptions even when they don't really fit. People have perceived the passing on of spiritual gifts and deficiencies from one generation to the next, and have explained it as "Generational Curses", just to give it biblical justification. In the same way, they've come up with a new definition of Witchcraft, one they can actually see happening and oppose through prayer and counseling.

This type of witchcraft (also known as having a Jezebel spirit) shows up within Christians themselves. Basically, because mystical connection with God comes through yielding your life to him and "waiting upon the Lord", someone displaying just the opposite is working spiritual witchcraft. These people go around controlling those about them, interfering in their lives and sowing seeds of discontent in the church. Their lives display spiritual immaturity, and sometimes very "evil" things come out of their mouths when they can't have their way.

As this is the exact opposite from what most Christians are striving for, it is assumed that it must be Satan and Witchcraft that's motivating them. Exorcism has been known to help. But more often than not, it's the choices the person is making that have to be realigned.

By redefining witchcraft in this manner it does lend credence to the supposed presence of "Evil Witches out to get us" mentality many churches entertain. If good Christian wives can sometimes fall for the wiles of witchcraft (according to the last definition), then how much more Pagans and Satanists? I would assume it's this misconception that guides Jerry to speak out against it so strongly. I don't see it as a fault so horrible that God would cease to use him as a prophet though. Nobody's perfect. It just limits who all God can send him to.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

It is still prejudice based on ignorance, exactly the same as all prejudices.

To whom much is given, much is required. Thus is the burden of educating himself placed squarely on Jerrys' shoulders.

And btw, I am really beginning to wonder if Jerry isn't a figment of someones imagination.

Surely hatred or fear based on ignorance is a sin. Isn't it?

[Tobias]

It is still prejudice based on ignorance, exactly the same as all prejudices.




What is? Jerry's lack of understanding concerning your definition of Witchcraft? Do you understand his?

Or what about the general ignorance displayed here about the Prophetic Movement's definition of Prophets?


Misunderstanding is misunderstanding, not prejudice. I can't redefine a commonly used English word, and then call "foul" whenever people mistake what I mean when I use it. The burden should be on me to explain why I choose to do so.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Whether the prejudice is mine, yours, or whomevers, it still is.

Tobias, my post wasn't an attack, just an opinion. I accept that you can be a prophet. I also realize you personally don't have the typical misunderstanding of witchcraft that so many do. I respect that you have assumed the burden of learning about other ways.

I didn't use the word misunderstanding, I used ignorance, which is a lack of education. All I was saying, is if he has been given so much, then much is required of him. I feel that his perception of witchcraft is a conception of man, not god. If he really is a prophet, could he simply not ask god about this, prior to preaching it? If he is a prophet, and is accepted as such, then there is no idle words from him, they will all be considered to be from god. Such is the mantle you who are or claim to be prophets assume. Lets not allow this to sink to personal issues, I have never discredited your claim, and do not intend to do so, but the topic is interesting to me and I want to continue our discussion.

[Ptah]

What is? Jerry's lack of understanding concerning your definition of Witchcraft? Do you understand his?

Anyone who fills the bill......


Or what about the general ignorance displayed here about the Prophetic Movement's definition of Prophets?

I don't see anyone here cursing that movement to the tenth generation. I dont see anyone here going to that movements website and trying to convince them they are on the wrong path by devious means. I personally don't care what Jerry calls himself, he can define himself as a bird but he'll be a bird perpetuating the ignorance of Kenneth Hagin. If Hagin's a prophet then everyone who has ever written anything based on a hateful ignorant doctrine is a prophet.


Misunderstanding is misunderstanding, not prejudic.

The prejudice is in the message, it doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to see that. That prejudice is base on a misunderstanding, or like I've been saying all long, ignorance. He bases his theosophy on attacking those he knows absolutely nothing about. There is no way anyone is going to justify his message or convince me that he is any more than a hack tent revivalist right out of the eighties. 1880's

[Tobias]

That's ok Hawk,

I didn't take your post as an attack. I see that the "ignorance" goes both ways, and thought I'd point it out.



I feel that his perception of witchcraft is a conception of man, not god. If he really is a prophet, could he simply not ask god about this, prior to preaching it? If he is a prophet, and is accepted as such, then there is no idle words from him, they will all be considered to be from god. Such is the mantle you who are or claim to be prophets assume.

Being a prophet doesn't grant a person omniscience; any more than being a witch gives you omnipotence. There may be certain standards to which a person has to achieve before God will choose to use him/her as a prophet, but there is a very big difference between what a prophet knows, and what God knows.

Unlike how some witches limit their use of magick for personal gain, I've never seen any limits to how much prophetic abilities can be used for oneself. Still, the ability to talk to God does not guarantee that he will give you any more answers than what you need for the moment. A person's spiritual walk is of utmost importance to God; so even prophets need to live by faith.

Also, a prophet is someone who gives direct words from God. Nobody can do this all the time. Sometimes the gift is "on", but most of the time it's "off". This is the reality of how we've found things to work. Resist the urge to exalt the Prophet into something else. ;)


Such is the mantle you who are or claim to be prophets assume. Lets not allow this to sink to personal issues, I have never discredited your claim, and do not intend to do so, but the topic is interesting to me and I want to continue our discussion.

Well, I did renounce my claim to being a Prophet, after seeing the fallacy of doing so (not to mention the hubris). Jerry has put himself (and not without the help of Mike) into an impossible position to reach out to too many people from. I think it comes from erroneous concepts concerning the Prophets of the Bible.

But as I did mention earlier, there are two types of prophets accepted by the Prophetic Movement. The one type is Jerry, in the Office of the Prophet, working signs and wonders and everything else you'd expect from the Great Prophets of Old. The other type is merely "one who prophesies". This I feel is what my god has gently been pushing me toward over the past few months. I've greatly enjoyed this discussion because it has shown me the pros and cons of taking on the job, as well as a considerable amount of wisdom on how to effectively carry it out.

I've enjoyed your part of this discussion too, Hawk. I find you considerate and level-headed; and quite unlike many other Pagans who can't seem to wrap their minds around the concept of Christianity being "just another religion". A lot of prejudism comes my way on this site, but I don't see it chasing me away anytime soon. I've been on the other side of prejudism often enough before to understand.

[Tobias]

Ptah,

So Jerry is willfully ignorant and prejudice then. Feel better? I have been pretty forthright about his faults, almost to the point of being critical myself. But it's important to separate between the man and the Message. That is a theme that runs throughout the Bible. But, I'm sure you already know that.

I sense that God uses him regardless of his faults. In God's defense I say that He is stuck using imperfect people, and that at least He hasn't sent Jerry to you with a message.

But you don't believe that prophecy is possible. You've made that quite clear. That, and you have some unresolved issues either with Christianity, the Christian god, or maybe just Kenneth Hagin?

What is it you want from me? Anything?

Are you pissed because Christianity works for some people, but never worked for you? Have you considered the possibility that you may have changed your approach to spirituality when you changed religions? I'm just grasping at straws here. If there's anything I can do to help let me know.

[Elderbush]

What bothers me is the maliciousness to outside groups - the making of a scapegoat if you will - that Jerry preaches. It is more of a political tactic and done many times before to Jews, African Americans, and various religious, political and ethnic groups. Minorities. I wouldn't like a self styled prophet of my god reflecting maliciousness, since one is then forced to wonder if the god is malicious. Possibly he is ignorant of the group (this time witches) that he turns into a scapegoat but surely he has been through school and understands the political tactic involved?

What if Jerry's god is a malicious god and Jerry's message is a true one?

[Ptah]

Ptah,

So Jerry is willfully ignorant and prejudice then. Feel better? I have been pretty forthright about his faults, almost to the point of being critical myself. But it's important to separate between the man and the Message. That is a theme that runs throughout the Bible. But, I'm sure you already know that.

I sense that God uses him regardless of his faults. In God's defense I say that He is stuck using imperfect people, and that at least He hasn't sent Jerry to you with a message.

But you don't believe that prophecy is possible. You've made that quite clear. That, and you have some unresolved issues either with Christianity, the Christian god, or maybe just Kenneth Hagin?

What is it you want from me? Anything?

Are you pissed because Christianity works for some people, but never worked for you? Have you considered the possibility that you may have changed your approach to spirituality when you changed religions? I'm just grasping at straws here. If there's anything I can do to help let me know.

You're just not getting it. Its a message of hate and discrimination, pure and simple. And no I don't think it comes from Diety, I think it is learned from false teachers.

My view of Christianity, and especially those associated with those who teach as Hagin does, comes from life experiences. My issue is that I don't like to hear anyone try to spread a very dangerous message of hate and do it in the name of any Diety. That is the reason I left the church, in the first place... ignorant discrimination. My approach to spirituality has always been the same, one on one. It is only the religious institutions and outside interlopers that try to interfere with that. So, no I don't think I need your help.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

That's ok Hawk,

I didn't take your post as an attack. I see that the "ignorance" goes both ways, and thought I'd point it out.




Being a prophet doesn't grant a person omniscience; any more than being a witch gives you omnipotence. There may be certain standards to which a person has to achieve before God will choose to use him/her as a prophet, but there is a very big difference between what a prophet knows, and what God knows.

Unlike how some witches limit their use of magick for personal gain, I've never seen any limits to how much prophetic abilities can be used for oneself. Still, the ability to talk to God does not guarantee that he will give you any more answers than what you need for the moment. A person's spiritual walk is of utmost importance to God; so even prophets need to live by faith.

Also, a prophet is someone who gives direct words from God. Nobody can do this all the time. Sometimes the gift is "on", but most of the time it's "off". This is the reality of how we've found things to work. Resist the urge to exalt the Prophet into something else. ;)



Well, I did renounce my claim to being a Prophet, after seeing the fallacy of doing so (not to mention the hubris). Jerry has put himself (and not without the help of Mike) into an impossible position to reach out to too many people from. I think it comes from erroneous concepts concerning the Prophets of the Bible.

But as I did mention earlier, there are two types of prophets accepted by the Prophetic Movement. The one type is Jerry, in the Office of the Prophet, working signs and wonders and everything else you'd expect from the Great Prophets of Old. The other type is merely "one who prophesies". This I feel is what my god has gently been pushing me toward over the past few months. I've greatly enjoyed this discussion because it has shown me the pros and cons of taking on the job, as well as a considerable amount of wisdom on how to effectively carry it out.

I've enjoyed your part of this discussion too, Hawk. I find you considerate and level-headed; and quite unlike many other Pagans who can't seem to wrap their minds around the concept of Christianity being "just another religion". A lot of prejudism comes my way on this site, but I don't see it chasing me away anytime soon. I've been on the other side of prejudism often enough before to understand.
Honestly though, the system seem very imperfect. Granted we are all imperfect, but Jerry has a message of evil and hate, rather than love and acceptance. I have to admit the 10 generation curse is a bit insulting, especially coming from someone who should know better in spite of his imperfections.
And I don't limit how I use my power, although I know of some who do, as you have said. The power is neither good nor evil, it's use determines it's results.
And as far as Jerry and his works, even you must admit at this point he is only a myth. And Jesus was supposed to end the hatred of the old testament, as was taught in the new. Tolerance and love is supposed to be the new message, and that is seriously lacking in Jerrys' preaching. Ptah is more animated than me about it, but Jerry really seems to be very short on the spiritualism that should be a prequisite for the job. I certainly do not envy you the position. I have tasks in the power, and to be quite frank, they scare the hell out of me, but I have ben set to these tasks and I will do my utmost best to discharge them honorably.
(LOL), many are called, few are chosen. Even fewer still remember that they are but laborers in the field and the field is the main thing. It is when the laborer begins to feel more important than the field that evil begins. Contemporary version: don't read your own press clippings.
I have a cousin who was on a tractor one day and "got the call". Duh, it was over 100 degrees, dusty, and no end in sight. Now he preaches in an air conditioned church in Texas. Please forgive my sarcism here, but duh.
I certainly hope that you are steadfast in your path and that you remain among us and strong in your path. I really believe the first rule is believe what you do and do what you believe, otherwise a person is just another fluffy bunny.
Do right, honor the Mother, and walk in the light.

[Ptah]

Ptah is more animated than me about it...,

I have no tolerance for the intolerant.

[Tobias]

Christianity has a lot of different teachings, and the Bible has many contradictory spiritual directions it can take you. People have to choose which option they want to take. For me, I chose the mystical path of listening to the voice of God. Looking back, I have no regrets. I feel quite fortunate to have found what I did. I can even sometimes fell that God "saved" me from mundane xianity. Yet, my path is still Christian, I suppose.

Through the countless hours of church services with preachers droning on and on about "Bible truths", I found that occasionally my God would speak to me concerning something in the message. I also found that some preachers were able to submit to God in such a way as to encourage his inspiration on the message they were delivering. I sought these preachers out, and developed the habit of tunning out what the person had to say in favor of that which was anointed.

Not everything that is anointed speaks directly to me. Often times I already know what they're talking about. But still, I can't help but sit up and take notice. But countless times though out my life my God has given me nuggets of truth in the midst of anointed preaching. Usually it does have something to do with the sermon, but often taking things a little different direction than where the preacher's going with it.

There are different levels of anointing, too. Some people just barely register anything with their preaching. I've been in some Prophetic meetings though where the presence of God is so thick you feel like you're wearing it when you leave. Prophecy brings some of the heaviest anointing, probably because the message is direct.

No Prophet can spend his/her entire ministry only prophesying. God just doesn't have that much to say directly in that format. It is NOT like channeling. But, there are other ministry gifts besides just Prophets; God anoints Preachers and Teachers as well. (Anyone interested in what the Five-Fold ministry is?) As my God is expanding my ministry capacities into the realm of prophecy, he's also showing me that I operate as a Teacher as well (and have been for many years).

When I listen to Jerry speak, I'm probably listening through different ears than you all. I learned a long time ago that you can't judge a preacher for content, because well, most of it is crap anyway. I like Jerry because, despite his personal faults and shortcomings, he does speak with the anointing sometimes. He doesn't do it as often as I'd like, but anyone who can get it to flow even 25% of the time is a decent preacher in my book!

Do I set my standards rather low? I don't know what else to do. This is what I've found works for me, and the only way I know of for a person to survive Christianity.

[Tobias]

What if Jerry's god is a malicious god and Jerry's message is a true one?


This is why it's important to separate that which is anointed and inspired by God (ie, what he has to say about himself), from what Man passes around as truth.

I haven't found my god to be malicious in any way. He seems to truly care for my spiritual well-being. But this path that I'm on isn't for just anybody. There is an awful lot of dark soul searching, and hard lessons that are meant to purge us of our habits that equate to spiritual stupidity.

I'm very happy with the progress we've made together on my life, and would recommend accepting his help to everyone. But, not too many people want what he has to offer; and many people start down this path with him only to find out later that it's not what they thought they were signing up for.

[Elderbush]

Tobias, you don't say what you get out of this annointing. Is that when you feel connected with your god or in the presence of your god? You look to connect with your god through others...it sort of sounds like a short circuiting connection where if you jiggle the wires just right <i>maybe</i> it will work. Do you go to these groups for that feeling, that connection? Do you put up with hate and nastiness in order to get that feeling? It sort of sounds, if you will forgive me, seeking the feeling rather than the god but maybe I've misunderstood.

Those of us in my religion also seek the connection and a relationship with their gods and we go to circle for it sometimes but only in a way is it like your church. The connection with the gods is a personal one. In some groups they draw down the gods, many more develop that connection as a solitary.

[Elderbush]

This is why it's important to separate that which is anointed and inspired by God (ie, what he has to say about himself), from what Man passes around as truth.




So only the good messages are from the god? The bad messages are because he is a liar? or does he think his god is malicious and full of hate and therefore that is how he portrays him?

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

.

But this path that I'm on isn't for just anybody. There is an awful lot of dark soul searching, and hard lessons that are meant to purge us of our habits that equate to spiritual stupidity.



This is universal, regardless of the path. IMO, unless one is willing to face the inner demon, then they aren't serious, and are just following like bleating sheep. Do we all not have a dark side? The trick is to live in harmony and balance within yourself. Many ancient religions teach this. BTW, I do not consider my path a religion, but a way of life. In so many I see the impulse to critize another because of the differences, and I'm not talking about responses to insults, but the ones who will not accept anothers right to differ from them. I find the "I am right and you are wrong" people are the ones who simply can't be bothered to search and learn. This kind of intolerance is insulting.
What do you consider to be the most important key to ones spirituality? The most inalienable right to intelligent life? In my mind they are one and the same.

[Tobias]

Tobias, you don't say what you get out of this anointing.

Through it I do feel the presence of my god; but I also receive from him direction for my life and personal instruction. Anointed messages are not the only way that God talks to me though. Just as often I can speak with him on my own, or revel in his presence by simply choosing to do so.

The fact that I can't deny is that my god still uses the Christian community to minister to me. I suppose I could maintain my relationship with him without any ties to the Bible or xianity, but why cut off half of the experience? If anything, I should be looking for more not less.

God also ministers to me through avenues like this forum. It was here that I was shown my calling as a prophet, and taught some of the parameters to that ministry. I had to combine what we discuss here with prayer and introspection; but the results I've achieved could not have happened without my participation here. Thus, it's a combination of outside and inside resources that produce positive results for me.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Through it I do feel the presence of my god; but I also receive from him direction for my life and personal instruction. Anointed messages are not the only way that God talks to me though. Just as often I can speak with him on my own, or revel in his presence by simply choosing to do so.

The fact that I can't deny is that my god still uses the Christian community to minister to me. I suppose I could maintain my relationship with him without any ties to the Bible or xianity, but why cut off half of the experience? If anything, I should be looking for more not less.

God also ministers to me through avenues like this forum. It was here that I was shown my calling as a prophet, and taught some of the parameters to that ministry. I had to combine what we discuss here with prayer and introspection; but the results I've achieved could not have happened without my participation here. Thus, it's a combination of outside and inside resources that produce positive results for me.

I didnt know you were a prophet,do you prophecy?

When you do,is it God?

Do you hear the word and speak for God?

Just wondering,I dont know you to well.

[Elderbush]

Tobias, what you get from the prophets within the evangelical Christian community is the ecstatic feeling along with messages you feel are true ones? I have had some contact with Appalachian churches as well as an anthropology background so the seeking of such emotional moments is something that cuts across cultures and times. The cult of Dionysus I believe was after the same thing. It is a very cathartic experience. I see no reason that you should cut yourself off from that emotional high.

Do you feel that these prophets have the same god that you do, imperfectly reflect that god because they don't understand what he is saying, or deliberately slide in their own messages of hate? Do you think that the average member of the congregation is able to discern what message is from the god and what is not? Can this be addressed or is it addressed within the religious community?

My gods also speak to me in many ways. That is the way of gods.

[Tobias]

This is universal, regardless of the path. IMO, unless one is willing to face the inner demon, then they aren't serious, and are just following like bleating sheep. Do we all not have a dark side? The trick is to live in harmony and balance within yourself.


I watched the movie "Frailty" for the first time the other night. For those who haven't seen it, it's about this man who has a "vision from God" telling him that certain people are demons and need to be gotten rid of. "God" leads him to the tools he needs to do the job, and gives him a list of names to start working on. He brings these victims home, and involves his sons in murdering them and burying their bodies. One son takes up the legacy and follows in his father's footsteps.

What I found to be really creepy about this, is that I can't see any place where this man erred in his methods of following "God". God assists him in miraculous ways, hiding evidence and leading him to the right victims.

I too have seen the same kind of mini-miracles in my life, while following my God. I don't murder anyone... but then again, He has never asked me to yet either. Would I if he led me that direction, showing me their sins and providing me with all the tools and opportunities to do the job?? Hmmm. I am rather trusting of him.

I feel vulnerable, thinking about this and knowing I cannot control who or what my God is. Most Christians put limits on God, forcing him to stay within biblical parameters. I don't know what good that does in this case, as the God of the OT sent people out to kill other people quite often. Still, I have abandoned some of the basic guidelines that they say to keep, and struck out on my own.

What I have found about my god by doing this, is that his interests are toward spiritual maturity. He's not hung up on "saving the world from hell" like xian doctrine assumes. The practical application of the Christian God is very similar to what other religions have come to expect. Most of the time this is comforting to me to know that the rest of you find this same mystical connection; but other times it's difficult, knowing that this is the All roads lead to God "deception" that xians warned me about. But, spiritual reality holds more weight with me than doctrines that serve nothing but to support the "Us vs. Them" boundaries of Christianity.

This movie exposes the dangers of the "Obey God or burn in hell" attitude when applied to those who actually get direction from someone they perceive as God. Fortunately, my god very early on encouraged me to always bounce things off of other people. I say that I think he's trustworthy not because I don't question him, but because I have and he's proven to be ok. If he ever did ask me to do something unjustifiable like murder, and was convincing enough to persuade me to go along with it, I still have enough other people out there to set me straight.

[Tobias]

I didn't know you were a prophet,do you prophecy?

When you do,is it God?

Do you hear the word and speak for God?

Just wondering,I dont know you to well.


Hey Azzeenasman, how have you been?

It seems that god does want to use me as a prophet. He's been doing it more lately, which I think is cool. I'm also becoming more aware of how he uses me in anointed teaching; which is like prophecy but with a lesser level of inspiration. I have been doing the anointed teaching thing for years now, and have received positive responses and karma touches from people who feel they have been helped by it.

I've been wondering how to tell people that the things they sometimes hear from me is from god, and have been considering the label of "prophet" for a while. But, once again, it seems that god is tying me back in to established Christian teachings, and I may as well just explain it the way they do. I have the active Five-Fold ministry gift of Teacher, and I'm a prophet because I prophesy. (Prophecy in this sense is not telling the future, but speaking messages for God.)

I really haven't done much to help others over the past few years, I've been more focused on my own path. It's been rather difficult for me as I shake off many of the harmful Christian doctrines, and wondering where this all leads. But I'm feeling more sure footed, and would like to assist others as the opportunities present themselves.

God assures me that this doesn't have to take away from my own progress, but that it will help me spiritually as I watch Him help others through me.

[Tobias]

Tobias, what you get from the prophets within the evangelical Christian community is the ecstatic feeling along with messages you feel are true ones? I have had some contact with Appalachian churches as well as an anthropology background so the seeking of such emotional moments is something that cuts across cultures and times. The cult of Dionysus I believe was after the same thing. It is a very cathartic experience. I see no reason that you should cut yourself off from that emotional high.



Religious ecstasy is cool! I enjoy it just as much as the next guy, but I see it as different than the anointing. Some people do confuse the two. They assume that they can manufacture the presence of God through human means. They try to play the right set of songs, or preach the right sermon. They may be able to produce ecstasy, but God remains sovereign.

I can't deny that there is often a connection between anointing and ecstasy. By choosing to enter appropriate altered states of consciousness, often times He understands our desire to connect with him and shows up. Or, sometimes when the anointing hits us we naturally respond by entering ecstasy. But the two should not be confused as the same thing.

God speaks and anoints teachings when he wants to. The trick is to yield to him in such a way as to encourage him. I don't know why I've focused my skills so sharply on perceiving when he does this. Christians call it the Gift of Discernment. I don't know if that's directly related to clairsentience or not, but it seems to be a bit more common than some of the other gifts. Or maybe all empaths can sense it to some extent.

I do believe I've refined my ability to discern quite a bit more than other people. Probably because I depend on it so much for my personal spiritual walk. Or it could be because I'm also clairaudient, and actually tap into the message as it's being dictated. I really don't know. I imagine more people could do this if they tried harder or knew what they were looking for. It's always been important to me, so I developed my abilities.

That's why I see being a full bone fide prophet at this point is a small step for me imo. I can already do the hard part, and hear God speak. I just need to learn the right ways to deliver the message so people will accept it.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

I watched the movie "Frailty" for the first time the other night. For those who haven't seen it, it's about this man who has a "vision from God" telling him that certain people are demons and need to be gotten rid of. "God" leads him to the tools he needs to do the job, and gives him a list of names to start working on. He brings these victims home, and involves his sons in murdering them and burying their bodies. One son takes up the legacy and follows in his father's footsteps.

What I found to be really creepy about this, is that I can't see any place where this man erred in his methods of following "God". God assists him in miraculous ways, hiding evidence and leading him to the right victims.

I too have seen the same kind of mini-miracles in my life, while following my God. I don't murder anyone... but then again, He has never asked me to yet either. Would I if he led me that direction, showing me their sins and providing me with all the tools and opportunities to do the job?? Hmmm. I am rather trusting of him.

I feel vulnerable, thinking about this and knowing I cannot control who or what my God is. Most Christians put limits on God, forcing him to stay within biblical parameters. I don't know what good that does in this case, as the God of the OT sent people out to kill other people quite often. Still, I have abandoned some of the basic guidelines that they say to keep, and struck out on my own.

What I have found about my god by doing this, is that his interests are toward spiritual maturity. He's not hung up on "saving the world from hell" like xian doctrine assumes. The practical application of the Christian God is very similar to what other religions have come to expect. Most of the time this is comforting to me to know that the rest of you find this same mystical connection; but other times it's difficult, knowing that this is the All roads lead to God "deception" that xians warned me about. But, spiritual reality holds more weight with me than doctrines that serve nothing but to support the "Us vs. Them" boundaries of Christianity.

This movie exposes the dangers of the "Obey God or burn in hell" attitude when applied to those who actually get direction from someone they perceive as God. Fortunately, my god very early on encouraged me to always bounce things off of other people. I say that I think he's trustworthy not because I don't question him, but because I have and he's proven to be ok. If he ever did ask me to do something unjustifiable like murder, and was convincing enough to persuade me to go along with it, I still have enough other people out there to set me straight.
I have thought long about this post.
I say this with the utmost respect, for a christian you certainly walk a pagan path. I think from now on in my mind you are a pagan who follows the god of your choice. Your god just happens to be Elohim.
I now admit I have been waiting for you to start preaching, and you have not, you have answered some very tough questions that could have been traps, and you answered the openly and honestly. This I respect.
If ever you need someone to defend you on this site, call me.
Do you have any questions about me and my path?