Was Jesus a witch?

[Dustypuppy]

if you look at his view on sociology, Love, tolerance, care for all, and his miraculous works.......all for the good of the people..........

[catphrodite]

I think he was more of a Buddhist. ;)

[Dustypuppy]

Buddhist ey?ya mean he liked the shaven skinhead look?haah x

[catphrodite]

Buddhist ey?ya mean he liked the shaven skinhead look?haah xI mean his philosophy. :}

[Autumn-Forest]

I sorta look at Jesus as a witch of sorts. With all the healin' and what not. ;) I'd say so, yes. :D

[catphrodite]

I sorta look at Jesus as a witch of sorts. With all the healin' and what not. ;) I'd say so, yes. :Ddoes that make all healers witches then, in your opinion?

[Autumn-Forest]

Hmmm...not all, i'd say. But I think Jesus was a witch for other reasons than just the healingness. Like what Dustypuppy said, his love and tolerance. But I also agree with you in a way, that his philosphy was much like a buddhist.

[Zibblsnrt]

if you look at his view on sociology, Love, tolerance, care for all, and his miraculous works.......all for the good of the people..........

So Jews can't hold those views or something?

Really, now. Not every nice person is automatically a pagan of some sort or another.

[Shanti]

was jesus a witch?

I dont know. What did he do for at least almost sure?
Everything written was done long after he died.
Jesus himself didnt leave writtings.
It seems to be mostly guessing.

Disclaimer:
My post is in answer to the above question only and is of only my opinion, nothing more.

[catphrodite]

Hmmm...not all, i'd say. But I think Jesus was a witch for other reasons than just the healingness. Like what Dustypuppy said, his love and tolerance. But I also agree with you in a way, that his philosphy was much like a buddhist.and that would lead me to ask you what your definition of a witch is.
does love and tolerance alone make one a witch?
or is it a certain spiritual connection one has, a belief system, a way of living?

[Autumn-Forest]

A witch, to me, is the walker between worlds. A wise man or woman who apperciates, uses, and recognizes the forces of nature and the elements. Love and tolerance are just in what a humans nature is like, but, I think most witches have a very high tolerance, I guess we have to nowadays. I also think that witches do have a spritual connection to whatever they believe-may it be Gaia, Morrigan, etc.

Does that answer your question?

[catphrodite]

A witch, to me, is the walker between worlds. A wise man or woman who apperciates, uses, and recognizes the forces of nature and the elements. Love and tolerance are just in what a humans nature is like, but, I think most witches have a very high tolerance, I guess we have to nowadays. I also think that witches do have a spritual connection to whatever they believe-may it be Gaia, Morrigan, etc.

Does that answer your question?it does, indeed! ;}

[Autumn-Forest]

:d

[The Pictish Druid]

Yes of course he was. He had the power to work natural magick; heal the sick, etc. He also had a coven of twelve. He was the Sun king who became the witches sacrifical Lamb.

[omar]

Yes of course he was. He had the power to work natural magick; heal the sick, etc. He also had a coven of twelve. He was the Sun king who became the witches sacrifical Lamb.
The energy to heal is one & the same whether its Jesus or a witch,all natural.

[equinox2]

Originally Posted by Dustypuppy

if you look at his view on sociology, Love, tolerance, care for all, and his miraculous works.......all for the good of the people..........



Hmm. Well, at least with regard to social standing (like accepting the poor, or the lepers). However, should we just pick and choose what stories about Jesus to believe based on what we wished were true? All stories should be considered and tested based on the evidence, and when this is done, some of the meaner stories about Jesus appear to be historically accurate. For instance, Jesus also urged people to put religion ahead of their families, abandoning their wife and kids if needed – think of that in the world of Jesus’ day – a single mom was terribly vulnerable, and Jesus’ words could well have been a death sentence to many women and children. Jesus also is reported as saying he came to bring not peace, but a sword (Mt 10:34). There is discussion of Jesus’ racism in this thread here: http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=57104&page=9&pp=10 (about mt 15:23, where Jesus refuses to heal someone because they aren’t Jewish - See posts #86 and #94. )

It’s hard to imagine a more intolerant and hateful doctrine than the doctrine of Hell, where people are tormented forever based (according to Christianity) on whether or not they are in the "right" religion. Who talks about Hell the most in the whole Bible? Moses? Nope. Peter? Nope? What about the much-maligned apostle Paul? Nope. Jesus preaches about the torment of Hell more than everyone else in theBible put together.

Jesus certainly does appear to have taught acceptance, especially of women, the diseased, and other social outcasts, as well as mentioning other good things, like the quoting the old testament law of the golden rule.

However, let’s not candy-coat Jesus and pretend he was something he wasn’t. Remembering that he was an apocalyptic Jewish teacher in the 1st century, does make it likely that he condemned other religions. I'm not sure what you mean by saying he was tolerant. He said "I am the way the truth and the light, no one gets to the father except through me" in the Bible, and that seems to be the opposite of tolerance. I know it is popular to claim to be following Jesus, but let’s not mold Jesus to our beliefs and then claim that Jesus followed our beliefs all along. That’s not honest.

This seems to be a pretty common practice - first decide what you are, then claim Jesus was that too. Literally thousands of books have been written saying jesus was anything you can think of, such as a communist, a capitalist, a fundmentalist, an armed revolutionary, a pacifist, a Catholic, a Protestant, a radical feminist, a magician, a doomsayer, a mormon, an aryan, a Jew, a Nazi, a hobo, a hippie, etc. All of them start by deciding what they want to make jesus into, then taking a few lines that are favorable to them, then ignoring everything else, and proceeding to spinning a grand story, filled with their own speculation.

You might want to compare several sources on the historical Jesus, and see which are supported by evidence, and decide based on an unbiased look at the evidence (here is a good overview: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html ).

Or, you could do what most people do (both Christians and non-Christians). First, just decide what you'd like Jesus to have been, and just stick with that. Evidence is irrelevant. You may choose a book which supports your view, and ignore all other books. That way you can feel like you actually read a book, even though reading one pre-chosen book means just about nothing.

Seriously though, I don't mean to sound aggressive - this is just the approach I see much more often than not.

Hey, that gives me an idea - I should sell Jesus ventriloquist dummies (so everyone can make Jesus say whatever they want him too) and sugar-coated Jesus candies (everyone also likes to sugar-coat Jesus)!


Take care-

[Pol]

I think Jesus was the spiritual leader of a Jewish sect.
I do not think Jesus was a Buddhist, a Witch, nor a Hippie. And he wasn't a Liberal, either.

For some reason, it really scratches me wrong when people try to apply modern/alternative views to Jesus.

All that we know of Jesus is what his followers wrote about him - and based on what they said, no, he was not a Witch. Based on the religion that formed around him, no, he was not a Buddhist.

Let's let Jesus be Jesus.

[Philosophia]

Let's let Jesus be Jesus.

I agree! Let Jesus be Jesus!

[healeri2]

I think Jesus was a mystic.

I also think when Jesus said - "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one may come to the father except through me" he was talking about the Self of everyone. That only you yourself as the I can transcend to your higher self. In my opinion his words are meant to teach the self about the self - as God is inside the self - and to unveil the hidden truth of the self is where one will find God - as God is in everything. That no one will come to know God without knowing the true "me" - the self.

[wintermagick]

Jesus was the ultimate hippie. Most of us can respect that.

[The Pictish Druid]

I think Jesus was a mystic.


As in Gnostic. Indeed many of the early Christians were Gnostics of the Greek, Egyptian and other Mystery traditions of the Eastern Mediterrian and Middle East.

[Philosophia]

Jesus was the ultimate hippie. Most of us can respect that.

:fpeace:

[Autumn-Forest]

Jesus was the ultimate hippie. Most of us can respect that.

Muwhahahahaha! :)

Hippies=:fpraise: :D

[David19]

I'm not sure, i've heard he learned some mystical things from Budhists and Hindus, and also Jews, i think he may have been something like a mage or something (he did know Zoroastrian priests, who were magi/mages), and i've heard he was influenced by a Jewish mystical group called the Essenes, so who knows.

Although i don't think his love teachings have to be pagan, after all there are many, many Jews who are good people.

[Meabh23]

I agree! Let Jesus be Jesus!

I agree with this. I am not going to take a major founder of another religion and claim he was something else. He was definitely not a Buddhist, but does he have to be? Does he have to be a witch? Does he have to labeled through your own religion in order to have validity? For me, no. He is valid enough for Christians and that's good enough for them. I won't tell Christians what to think, even if viewing Jesus through other categories may illuminate somethings. His miracles and his teachings have a unique context that mean something within the Christian religion.

To the world, Jesus is a great spiritual leader, but I think that Christians think of him as more than that. He was or is the son of God. I am not Christian, but I can respect that and leave it be.

Certainly he commanded the weather and healed sick people, at least through the stories we have. He also parallels many other popular religions of that time such as Mithraism. But calling him a witch may simplify his significance at the expense of how Christians conceived of him.

[catphrodite]

let's cut right to it, folks.

Jesus was a Jew. :D

[The Pictish Druid]

let's cut right to it, folks.

Jesus was a Jew. :D

There is nothing to stop a Jew from becoming a witch, mystic or gnostic.

or even a Buddhist :D

[Pol]

I think there would have been, 2000 years ago, because Buddhism is - despite being billed as a philosophy - a religion of its own with its own beliefs on deity, the afterlife, et cetera.

[The Pictish Druid]

Has anyone ever been to the 'Reluctant Messenger' site? There are many things of interest there including a section on Jesus which gives an alternative view:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/christ.htm

[Pol]

My problem with such alternative views is that Christ did not say he came to wash away Karma or to replace Satan.
As there is very, very little mention of Christ outside of what became 'the Bible' - as far as we know - that's all we have to base it on.
If you take away what the Bible described him as, why believe he even existed to begin with?

[Meabh23]

My problem with such alternative views is that Christ did not say he came to wash away Karma or to replace Satan.
As there is very, very little mention of Christ outside of what became 'the Bible' - as far as we know - that's all we have to base it on.
If you take away what the Bible described him as, why believe he even existed to begin with?

He wasn't a Buddhist because in Buddhism you take responsibility for your own karma and whatever you have done. No one can wash away your sins in that perspective.

[Pol]

That too.
Though, Pure Land Buddhism could kind of be Christlike, but it's still so very different in its reasons and backgrounds.

[Meabh23]

That too.
Though, Pure Land Buddhism could kind of be Christlike, but it's still so very different in its reasons and backgrounds.


Pure Land? Is that the Amitabha group?

[The Pictish Druid]

My problem with such alternative views is that Christ did not say he came to wash away Karma or to replace Satan.
As there is very, very little mention of Christ outside of what became 'the Bible' - as far as we know - that's all we have to base it on.
If you take away what the Bible described him as, why believe he even existed to begin with?

There are many references to Christ in the non-canon or Gnostic gospels which were found at Nag Hammadi in 1945.

[Toby Stimpson]

I really do hate this tendency within the Pagan world to somehow coopt other figures as being 'Pagan" or a "witch"...the reality is Paganism is not the be all and end all...we have taken a LOT from other religions and every religion somehow started off as a sect of another religion so really we can't say that Jesus was a Witch or anything like that because if anything he was Jewish who just had a different outlook. And since it was 2000 years ago...whos to say Christianity hasnt somehow influenced other religions around it or other more ancient religions influenced Christianity?

Tobias

[Pol]

There are many references to Christ in the non-canon or Gnostic gospels which were found at Nag Hammadi in 1945.

There was a lot of non-canon writings on Christ destroyed by the early 'Church,' and no doubt some of it has survived.
Canon or non-canon, it still supports the more-or-less same notion of Christ - not a witch, not a Buddhist.
My point is that in order to see Christ as a witch, a Buddhist, or even 'a good teacher' you would have to throw out the only written accounts of him we have - be it canon or non-canon like the gnostic and other early post-Christ writings.

[Pol]

Pure Land? Is that the Amitabha group?

Yep, Amitabha/Amida Buddha - a more faith-based branch of Buddhism rather than self-based.

[equinox2]

Pol wrote:


My point is that in order to see Christ as a witch, a Buddhist, or even 'a good teacher' you would have to throw out the only written accounts of him we have - be it canon or non-canon

Right. Thanks for carrying this after my really long post on the second page about this practice. I can't think of anyone who is (ab)used more often this way than Jesus. People (especially the few remaining liberal Christians, and especially Pagans and New-Agers) routinely pretend Jesus was whatever they'd like, as if it were open season on history. This is revisionist history as much as the holocaust deniers, moon landing deniers, and evolution deniers.

Hey, why stop with Jesus? From now on everyone is to understand that Mao was a capitalist, Rand was a socialist, Gandhi was Christian, Calvin was a witch, and Sagan was a Catholic. Krishna was Kristian, wasn't he? or Christian? Or Crystalline? Or Chrism? All this ignoring of evidence and just pretending that all ideas are equally true leaves humans in a state of perpetual confusion and helplessness.

I hope the work of scholars and scientists over the past several hundred years is appreciated. They have been able to come to some conclusions about who Jesus probably was, and it wasn't a witch. To find out about the evidence yourself (from a scholary, not a Christian, source) listen to these academic classes on tape. They are at least a start:

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/643.asp?id=643&d=Historical+Jesus&pc=Search

Hey, if we are going to just decide what we want people to be, why restrict ourselves to dead people? How about if I decide that Pol is a Muslim fundamentalist, that the Pictish Druid is a Donatist, and that Tobias is a Shinto? Of course that would be silly (or offensive), and it still would be so if any of them died. I think that all this hang up over Jesus exposes the fact that so many peole haven't actually grown out of their Christianity yet, and are clinging to it even if they have to deny reality. If they had left their past in the past, they wouldn't care much about whether Jesus would approve of them or not.

Just sayin.

P. S.
Druid wrote:

Gnostic gospels which were found at Nag Hammadi in 1945.

I've read those. For one thing, they don't support the idea that Jesus was a witch, but rather a divine Aeon. Seondly, scholars agree that they have little accuracy about who Jesus actually was because they were written in the 2nd century. That'd be like me writing now about the life of President Garfield, in a world without newspapers or such. Not very useful.

[Pol]

Well said.
I heard someone once say that there's a big problem with making Jesus into a 'good teacher' - if he was a good teacher, and not God, then he was a liar and lunatic and as such not a good teacher.

[I will point out that it was me you quoted at the end there]

(straps on some bombs)

[Astara Seague]

I have always thought of him to be a good man and a wise counsler, to put a modern day title on him I would say he was more like a hippie, a nomad moreless, crossed with a magician of sorts_inabox_

[Pol]

Where do people get that Jesus was anything at all like a hippie?
I'm not really sure where that idea comes from.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Well,its a bit awsome to see him still being debated(on a pagan forums )even after all these years.His name is still changing lives,blessing others,and is loved and hated by millions.

The energy of the Love that Jesus has for humanity,is still flowing in the lives of others to this very day,so if he was a witch,he was an awfully powerfull
one.

Hey,guess who is the one God,who when his name is spoken,causes more
activity and debates ,on this site?on any site for that matter.

What god is discussed the most?

But,some on a christian forums are calling me a witch,and are telling me Im
not serving the same god as them.One former witch said,,you arent fooling me,I know you are a member of a circle and a coven,and praying to the Morrigan and to the Stag,all because I posted a druid poem.
Witch Witch,your a witch,,,I can not believe that they are saying that to me,I heard about it happening to others,in storys,but I didnt think they would do it to me.It doesnt matter that my prayers are to the Lord,they dont care.

I dont even know who the stag is,it was a poem of the wheel of the year.

So,If Jesus was a witch,then we have something in common,if not,I hope he still loves me anyway.For some reason they will not bann me from the christian side.

And Im sure the religious leaders thought Jesus was evil,because they accused him of casting out devils,through the prince of the devils.Jesus was accused of using evil powers to cast out evil spirits,I guess that might be considered an occultist.When they couldnt stand him anymore,they crucified him,even though many were healed by him.

This is my humble opinion,and I suppose I could be wrong,it wont be the first time I was wrong.But my heart says Jesus was the Son of God,and is a God of love,not judgment.He warned everyone about Gods judgment,and offered himself to die to deliver us from it.

And as far as his warning on hell,if there is one,then he did us a big favor in warning us,,,if thier isnt one,then he lied to us.We must all decide for ourselves if he was lieing or telling the truth,but we will all find out in due time,since we will all die.(in response to Equinox)

[David19]

I don't know why people want to turn Jesus into something to suit their needs, i think that Jesus was probably a lot more than a witch (that's no offence to other witches, though), i don't like it when i see some pagans try and turn him into a wiccan or some will say there's no evidence that he existed other than the bible, which may be true, but how do people know the Greek gods exist, how do Asatruer know the Norse gods exist aside from the Eddas, how do Kemetic pagans know the Egyptian gods exist, etc.

[equinox2]

Pol wrote:


Where do people get that Jesus was anything at all like a hippie?
I'm not really sure where that idea comes from.

I don't know either, but my guess is partly from his homelessness, and partly from all the portraits of him with long hair& a beard. I really do think it can be that simple - mostly just a picture of him drawn by some European who never saw him. Plus, many of the people who think he was a hippie think his message was about love, and hippies certainly talked about love.

Azzy wrote:


And as far as his warning on hell,if there is one,then he did us a big favor in warning us,,,if thier isnt one,then he lied to us....(in response to Equinox)

Hi again Azzy!

Hardly a big favor if he actually is the ruler of the universe, since then it isn't warning, it's a threat (because it is under his control). It's like if I put a gun to your head and said that if you didn't join the Heaven's Gate group, then I'd shoot you - oh, and I did you a big favor by telling you that, since I'm sure you don't want to be shot.

Also, if there isn't a hell, Jesus need not have lied - that's a repeat of the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument. (the idea that since Jesus claimed to be God, he must either be a liar, a lunatic or really be God). That argument is fallacious because someone can claim something and simply be wrong. For instance, Einstein rejected quantum mechanics to his dying breath, saying that "God does not play dice with the universe". Well, QM has been shown to be correct time and time again since then. Was Einstein a liar? No - he was just incorrect. Was he a lunatic? I don't think so. Was he correct? No.

So even if Hell does not exist, that doesn't make Jesus a liar. He could have simply been wrong. Being human, I'm sure Jesus did lie at some point - we all do - it's just that his many threats about Hell aren't good examples of lying , since Jesus (being a Jewish doomsayer) probably did honestly believe them.

Take care-

[equinox2]

Pol wrote:


Where do people get that Jesus was anything at all like a hippie?
I'm not really sure where that idea comes from.

I don't know either, but my guess is partly from his homelessness, and partly from all the portraits of him with long hair& a beard. I really do think it can be that simple - mostly just a picture of him drawn by some European who never saw him. Plus, many of the people who think he was a hippie think his message was about love, and hippies certainly talked about love.

Azzy wrote:


And as far as his warning on hell,if there is one,then he did us a big favor in warning us,,,if thier isnt one,then he lied to us....(in response to Equinox)

Hi again Azzy!

Hardly a big favor if he actually is the ruler of the universe, since then it isn't warning, it's a threat (because it is under his control). It's like if I put a gun to your head and said that if you didn't join the Heaven's Gate group, then I'd shoot you - oh, and I did you a big favor by telling you that, since I'm sure you don't want to be shot.

Also, if there isn't a hell, Jesus need not have lied - that's a repeat of the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument. (the idea that since Jesus claimed to be God, he must either be a liar, a lunatic or really be God). That argument is fallacious because someone can claim something and simply be wrong. For instance, Einstein rejected quantum mechanics to his dying breath, saying that "God does not play dice with the universe". Well, QM has been shown to be correct time and time again since then. Was Einstein a liar? No - he was just incorrect. Was he a lunatic? I don't think so. Was he correct? No.

So even if Hell does not exist, that doesn't make Jesus a liar. He could have simply been wrong. Being human, I'm sure Jesus did lie at some point - we all do - it's just that his many threats about Hell aren't good examples of lying , since Jesus (being a Jewish doomsayer) probably did honestly believe them.

Take care-

[Philosophia]

Where do people get that Jesus was anything at all like a hippie?
I'm not really sure where that idea comes from.

I think it was meant to be a joke...y'know, something to lighten this thread a little
Or maybe I'm absolutely wrong like I have been on many occasions?
Anyway, I'll repeat what others had stated (including myself):
Let Jesus be Jesus.

[Pol]

Well, I wasn't just talking about that post, it's something people say a lot, sometimes in jest, but sometimes in seriousness when I just don't see him at all as a hippie type - and I'm something of a hippie.

[Philosophia]

Well, I wasn't just talking about that post, it's something people say a lot, sometimes in jest, but sometimes in seriousness when I just don't see him at all as a hippie type - and I'm something of a hippie.

Mmm...I agree. I don't see him as a hippy (though I'd say so jokingly) and, other than the appearance and some attributes (love, peace, etc.), I can't see how he can be defined as one.

[The Pictish Druid]

Where do people get that Jesus was anything at all like a hippie?
I'm not really sure where that idea comes from.

Maybe it is because he had long hair and challenged the establishment.

[Vincent Verthaine]

What Jesus was,and what the bible says Jesus was,may not be the same thing.

We know that Yeshua was jewish,probably spoke Aramaic and probably was an Essene.
Other then that,everything else is a matter of debate.
Since his teachings has caused many of his followers to spread chaos,confusion and strife for 2000 years,it can easily be said that Jesus was a discordian also.
Hell,I can say every great religious leader was a discordian by that criteria.

Yeshua was Yeshua,and only he and the Supreme really know the truth.Everythig else is just opinion.

[Pol]

Maybe it is because he had long hair and challenged the establishment.

Therein is the problem with that thought - he didn't challenge the establishment. At all, actually. He taught, he had followers, it was a personal journey, not one involving the government or politic or establishment.

[Heart of Isis]

Simple answer = No. Next question please.

HOI

[The Pictish Druid]

Therein is the problem with that thought - he didn't challenge the establishment. At all, actually. He taught, he had followers, it was a personal journey, not one involving the government or politic or establishment.

Yes it may well have been a case that he never intended to challenge the establishment, but he certainly ruffled a few feathers among Jewish religous leaders which eventually resulted in his death sentence.