Egyptian & Germanic deity sharing the same ancestral altar?

[Hærfest Leah]

Obviously recons do not mix and match deities and only in rare cases is it accepted as long as both deities do not oppose eachother.

My husband and I have put together a joint ancestral altar, the only thing is that he has a statue of Anubis on his side & I'm thinking of adding Hel to my side.

Does anyone see any conflict here? And would there be a better Germanic deity to use for my side given her being related to Loki?

[Redshire]

Being that its an altar for your ancestors, I really dont think there should be any problem. This is quite different than, say, working in a ritual setting where you invoke both Anubis and Hel. :)

[Mjollnir]

Does anyone see any conflict here? And would there be a better Germanic deity to use for my side given her being related to Loki?


I do not and never would mix/match but thats just me. My issue is with your wanting to "change" Hela, just because of her relation to Loki, what made you choose her to begin with? And why do you feel now you need to change her, is it by her relation to Loki only?

Remember that of the 3 offspring, she is the least apt to do anything "bad", sure the host of Hel joins with the Jotuns at Ragnarok to fight the gods and einherjar but my kindred still works with her, look at what she does and not so much as who she is related to.

[Rananeida]

My husband and I have put together a joint ancestral altar, the only thing is that he has a statue of Anubis on his side & I'm thinking of adding Hel to my side.

The problem I see isn't that you have gods from different pantheons on your altar, but that you want to put these two particular gods on an ancestral altar. Neither of them is anybody's ancestor, as far as I know - at least Hel isn't, and worshipping her is not very sound in any case. She's a taker not a giver.

[Malcolm]

Whats wrong with Hel? She always seemed like a hip lady to me.

[Mjollnir]

The problem I see isn't that you have gods from different pantheons on your altar, but that you want to put these two particular gods on an ancestral altar. Neither of them is anybody's ancestor, as far as I know - at least Hel isn't, and worshipping her is not very sound in any case. She's a taker not a giver.

How is Hela not one of her ancestral deities? heathens look at the gods and goddesses as our Elder kin.If you have a problem with Hela being a taker and not a giver,go talk to Odin, it was he who put her there and in charge of the souls sent to her, she dont take them, she receives them, big difference. have you ever tried to work with her? Honor her? listen to her?

[Mjollnir]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/hela.html

[Rananeida]

Whats wrong with Hel? She always seemed like a hip lady to me.
There's nothing wrong with Hel. She is indeed a hip lady.

But she's also the skull lady, the rib lady, the eater-of-your-knecaps lady. And she won't give you any wooden limbs in return, either, or anything else for that matter.

[Mjollnir]

There's nothing wrong with Hel. She is indeed a hip lady.

But she's also the skull lady, the rib lady, the eater-of-your-knecaps lady. And she won't give you any wooden limbs in return, either, or anything else for that matter.


Anything in the lore to substantiate that or is it your UPG?

[Rananeida]

How is Hela not one of her ancestral deities? heathens look at the gods and goddesses as our Elder kin.If you have a problem with Hela being a taker and not a giver,go talk to Odin, it was he who put her there and in charge of the souls sent to her, she dont take them, she receives them, big difference. have you ever tried to work with her? Honor her? listen to her?

How you look at things and like to split your hairs is not of my concerns, fortunately, neither do I have any problems with Hel. But she is nobody's ancestor. No matter how you look at her, she has no children, born or adopted, that anybody could descend from. She is a relative at such a distance that any pebble on the pavement outside your house is a closer cousin to you than she is. And, no matter how she gets her stuff, she takes it. If you think she's been giving you something back, it's my conviction you're in for big disillusions.

And, it shows you're a neo-pagan, with no real heathen roots, when you use expressions like "work with" and "in charge of the souls", and have no qualms about breaking serious traditional taboos by chatting up the "hip lady". Nothing wrong with being a neo-pagan, mind you, but it shows where you're NOT from, so please quit talking about heathens in such generalising tones as if your personal views are universal. It's very annoying. It's apparent to me from the way you express your beliefs and customs that I'm definitely not one of those heathens you talk about, and that you and I have very little in common.

And, if I seem a bit huffy it's just my regular reaction to sweeping generalisations and serious custom-breaking, no offense given. Oh, and there's also something in your tone that I actually peceive as haughty snootiness. You might not have meant it that way, so no offense taken in that respect, but you might want to adjust yourself.

Edited: To correct a grave misspelling.

[Mjollnir]

How you look at things and like to split your hairs is not of my concerns, fortunately, neither do I have any problems with Hel. But she is nobody's ancestor. No matter how you look at her, she has no children, born or adopted, that anybody could descend from. She is a relative at such a distance that any pebble on the pavement outside your house is a closer cousin to you than she is. And, no matter how she gets her stuff, she takes it. If you think she's been giving you something back, it's my conviction you're in for big disillusions.


Disillusions? Sorry to dissapoint you cupcake but if anyone here is disillusioned it is you,


And, it shows you're a neo-pagan, with no real heathen roots, when you use expressions like "work with" and "in charge of the souls", and have no qualms about breaking serious traditional taboos by chatting up the "hip lady".

Ahh yes, the personal jab, I assume since you began, I am now under the Rules of Engagement allowed to light you up like a $2 x-mas tree. What do you know of me or my roots? Why is it the words chosen reflect some neo-pagan mindset or make you go off on your little diatribe? I have news for you princess, it is best to keep your opinions to yourself, and since you neither know me, my kin or for that matter your own gods I suggest you close the gaping hole under your nose.



Nothing wrong with being a neo-pagan, mind you, but it shows where you're NOT from, so please quit talking about heathens in such generalising tones as if your personal views are universal. It's very annoying. It's apparent to me from the way you express your beliefs and customs that I'm definitely not one of those heathens you talk about, and that you and I have very little in common.

Strike a chord did I? Is it you who are the neo? Whats more annoying is your attitude and coming across as holier-than-thou, as for having anything in common with you I am glad I do not, your closed mindedness is blatantly obvious, go back and read the lore, who knows you might even learn something and have you updated your identification as a card carrying member of the heathen elite? Thats the attitude you give off and it smells like rotting horses ass wrapped in a dead fish.


And, if I seem a bit huffy it's just my regular reaction to sweeping generalisations and serious custom-breaking, no offense given. Oh, and there's also something in your tone that I actually peceive as haughty snootiness. You might not have meant it that way, so no offense taken in that respect, but you might want to adjust yourself.

Edited: To correct a grave misspelling.


Adjust this darlin................................

[Rananeida]

Anything in the lore to substantiate that or is it your UPG?

Ooooh! What have we here? An Edda-thumper? Should I be afraid or impressed, or something? *grins teasingly* I find it incredibly amusing every time somebody pulls out the "lore" and use that particular acronym.

No offense - we live in different worlds, that's all. :)

[Mjollnir]

Ooooh! What have we here? An Edda-thumper? Should I be afraid or impressed, or something? *grins teasingly* I find it incredibly amusing every time somebody pulls out the "lore" and use that particular acronym.

No offense - we live in different worlds, that's all. :)


Simple question................................and your way past the point of "offense"

[Rananeida]

Disillusions? Sorry to dissapoint you cupcake but if anyone here is disillusioned it is you,



Ahh yes, the personal jab, I assume since you began, I am now under the Rules of Engagement allowed to light you up like a $2 x-mas tree. What do you know of me or my roots? Why is it the words chosen reflect some neo-pagan mindset or make you go off on your little diatribe? I have news for you princess, it is best to keep your opinions to yourself, and since you neither know me, my kin or for that matter your own gods I suggest you close the gaping hole under your nose.




Strike a chord did I? Is it you who are the neo? Whats more annoying is your attitude and coming across as holier-than-thou, as for having anything in common with you I am glad I do not, your closed mindedness is blatantly obvious, go back and read the lore, who knows you might even learn something and have you updated your identification as a card carrying member of the heathen elite? Thats the attitude you give off and it smells like rotting horses ass wrapped in a dead fish.




Adjust this darlin................................

Did you miss the part where I say no offense given? Actually, while you were pulling childish insults out from your behind I said it one more time.
The way you talk here tells me all I need to know about your poor, soiled, shamed, miserable roots. Hel must have gotten away with all but the dregs.

[Mjollnir]

Did you miss the part where I say no offense given? Actually, while you were pulling childish insults out from your behind I said it one more time.
The way you talk here tells me all I need to know about your poor, soiled, shamed, miserable roots. Hel must have gotten away with all but the dregs.


Tell ya what slappy, I have 4 manifests to do before I go home, so you just wait right here for me to reply, ok? And BTW, if no offense was meant, there was no need for your comments, but since you have apparently nothing better to do than question the faith of others..

The unwise man among others who come,
let him be sparing of speech;
for no one knows that naught is in him,
but he opens his mouth too much.

No mock make thou of any man,
though thou comest among kinsmen;
he knowing weens him whom no one has asked,
and dry-shod hies him home.


EDIT: not poor,keep myself clean,only thing ashamed of is getting dragged into a pissing contest with you,ditto for the miserable. You have a nice day now pumpkin.

[Malcolm]

And, it shows you're a neo-pagan, with no real heathen roots, when you use expressions like "work with" and "in charge of the souls", and have no qualms about breaking serious traditional taboos by chatting up the "hip lady". Nothing wrong with being a neo-pagan, mind you, but it shows where you're NOT from, so please quit talking about heathens in such generalising tones as if your personal views are universal. It's very annoying. It's apparent to me from the way you express your beliefs and customs that I'm definitely not one of those heathens you talk about, and that you and I have very little in common

That "hip lady" is the daughter of someone I respect very much. This kind of thing is exactly why I refuse to identify myself as "heathen" or "Asatru". If your not on your knees kissing a gods ass, your are obviously "disrespectful" or breaking some taboo.

Never really thought Loki cared much for taboos.

I never thought our gods worked that way. Maybe I'm reading something in that isn't there, but you seem a bit snobish yourself.

[Rananeida]

Tell ya what slappy, I have 4 manifests to do before I go home, so you just wait right here for me to reply, ok? And BTW, if no offense was meant, there was no need for your comments, but since you have apparently nothing better to do than question the faith of others..

The unwise man among others who come,
let him be sparing of speech;
for no one knows that naught is in him,
but he opens his mouth too much.

No mock make thou of any man,
though thou comest among kinsmen;
he knowing weens him whom no one has asked,
and dry-shod hies him home.


EDIT: not poor,keep myself clean,only thing ashamed of is getting dragged into a pissing contest with you,ditto for the miserable. You have a nice day now pumpkin.
I'm not questioning your faith, nor am I mocking you. That's all in your head. I am seriusly pitying your roots and your ancestors who have to do with a descendant like you. The way you talked to me in your poisonous comment is soiling all those before you and shaming all those after you, should there be any - gods forbid.

I made excuses for being huffy and for maybe taking things the wrong way in my very first comment to you - I even excused your offensive suggestion about "working with" Hel because I knew you're just ignorant and from a different background - but your insults and your rudeness in your later comment, and now this, makes me take them all back.

---

To the OP: My suggestion about not having either god on your ancestral altar remains. Don't put Hel in your house. Make it a place for your nearest ancestors to dwell if they so choose; ancestors you knew in life or at least know the history and character of, so you know they'll be good for you and help and support you. Not many people know much about their ancestry beyond great-grandparents these days, so unless you know somebody even further back, I'd stop there were I you, and just give honours to the rest collectively. In time some of them will step forward and present themselves to you. Till then, stick to the people you know. That's my advice - take or leave. :)

[Mjollnir]

I'm not questioning your faith, nor am I mocking you. That's all in your head. I am seriusly pitying your roots and your ancestors who have to do with a descendant like you.

have no fear my little sun blossom, they are more than adequately honored by me, little cases of internet slamming have no bearing on it, so take your own little barbs and place them where you will.And seeing as your ancestors and mine most likely were kristjan at one point, you have no room to pity anyones roots, unless yours are showing and in that case shall I recommend a dye job, perhaps a nice shade of ditzy blonde perhaps?




The way you talked to me in your poisonous comment is soiling all those before you and shaming all those after you, should there be any - gods forbid.

You mean the poisonous comments in reply to yours? The "no offense" ones? Gotcha................


I made excuses for being huffy and for maybe taking things the wrong way in my very first comment to you - I even excused your offensive suggestion about "working with" Hel because I knew you're just ignorant and from a different background - but your insults and your rudeness in your later comment, and now this, makes me take them all back.

Take them back,guard them close to your heart, let your fluffyness flow....................................



---


To the OP: My suggestion about not having either god on your ancestral altar remains. Don't put Hel in your house. Make it a place for your nearest ancestors to dwell if they so choose; ancestors you knew in life or at least know the history and character of, so you know they'll be good for you and help and support you. Not many people know much about their ancestry beyond great-grandparents these days, so unless you know somebody even further back, I'd stop there were I you, and just give honours to the rest collectively. In time some of them will step forward and present themselves to you. Till then, stick to the people you know. That's my advice - take or leave. :)


The fact that you call me a neo, yet choose to obviously ignore the lore we have at our disposal is staggering, 3 more manifests to go hun, so remember, stay right here if you want to reply and wait for me.............::kisses::

[Malcolm]

So if "working with" is a bad way to say it. How would you say?

[Rananeida]

So if "working with" is a bad way to say it. How would you say?
I wouldn't say it any way at all as the concept simply doesn't exist where I'm from.

And, because I'm tired of having people jumping to the wrong conclusions here, I ask you to re-read the passage where I mention the phrase. If you look closely, I did not say anything about it being "bad" in any way. I pointed to it only to tell I was aware it was a neo-pagan with completely different customs and views than mine I was talking to. Hence my excuses for being huffy and my blind eye to the offensive suggestion about "working with" Hel. Read also what I say about being neo-pagan.

Thank you!

[Mjollnir]

I wouldn't say it any way at all as the concept simply doesn't exist where I'm from.

And, because I'm tired of having people jumping to the wrong conclusions here, I ask you to re-read the passage where I mention the phrase. If you look closely, I did not say anything about it being "bad" in any way. I pointed to it only to tell I was aware it was a neo-pagan with completely different customs and views than mine I was talking to. Hence my excuses for being huffy and my blind eye to the offensive suggestion about "working with" Hel. Read also what I say about being neo-pagan.

Thank you!

Aww c'mon now babe, you can at least mention my name, dont be like that, come give us a kiss.......................and BTW, I am heathen, not pagan. I don't know how it is for someone with "completely different customs/views like yours" but we like to consider ourselves as heathens or Asatruar as opposed to pagan, not to 'split hairs" now though.....

[Malcolm]

I wouldn't say it any way at all as the concept simply doesn't exist where I'm from.

So where are you from then? Is it a language translation issue? What do you call it when you choose to have a relationship with a god or godess?

[Rananeida]

have no fear my little sun blossom, they are more than adequately honored by me, little cases of internet slamming have no bearing on it, so take your own little barbs and place them where you will.And seeing as your ancestors and mine most likely were kristjan at one point, you have no room to pity anyones roots, unless yours are showing and in that case shall I recommend a dye job, perhaps a nice shade of ditzy blonde perhaps?





You mean the poisonous comments in reply to yours? The "no offense" ones? Gotcha................



Take them back,guard them close to your heart, let your fluffyness flow....................................



---




The fact that you call me a neo, yet choose to obviously ignore the lore we have at our disposal is staggering, 3 more manifests to go hun, so remember, stay right here if you want to reply and wait for me.............::kisses::
Looks to me you're having big problems with understanding your precious "lore", name-caller. You're using Havamål as Olav used the cross, and achieve nothing but making a complete fool of yourself.

And, why so touchy about being called a neo-pagan? That's what you are, isn't it. Are you ashamed or something? Is it something bad in your eyes being one? Don't answer - I doubt I'll bother wading through your insults one more time in a vain attemt to find something worthwile. You really don't realize nobody is attacking you, do you.

And, for the record, I don't have all that many Christian ancestors, but I honour them, too, each and every one of them. I don't insult them by deliberately misspelling the adjective describing which faith they belong to.

Actually, more than I pity your poor ancestors, Christian or otherwise, who have such one as you for a descendant, I pity you who can't have all that many ancestors to look out for you, the shameful way you're behaving. No wonder you talk about "working with" Hel - she must be the only one who'll want you by now.

But, no, I won't wait for you. You're a nobody. Besides, you use too much weird slang that's not in my dictionary. Only that.

[Mjollnir]

Looks to me you're having big problems with understanding your precious "lore", name-caller. You're using Havamål as Olav used the cross, and achieve nothing but making a complete fool of yourself.


Really? Wow, cause I thought I was returning fire after being fired upon, and therefore my "precious lore" is more than adequate in describing you. And which Olav? The Norwegian one or Swedish one? I assume you mean St. Olav since you Norwegians have a problem with the Swedes, I'll ask my kinsman Jon and Rick, they are both of Norwegian descent.


And, why so touchy about being called a neo-pagan? That's what you are, isn't it. Are you ashamed or something? Is it something bad in your eyes being one? Don't answer - I doubt I'll bother wading through your insults one more time in a vain attemt to find something worthwile. You really don't realize nobody is attacking you, do you.

No, it's ok, I'll stick with heathen, and as far as "attacking", I suggest you proof read to make sure you arent "misread". I have a lot of worthwhile to offer, but a Level 12 Hereditary Heathen like yourself might find it bland.


And, for the record, I don't have all that many Christian ancestors, but I honour them, too, each and every one of them. I don't insult them by deliberately misspelling the adjective describing which faith they belong to.

You sure?


Actually, more than I pity your poor ancestors, Christian or otherwise, who have such one as you for a descendant, I pity you who can't have all that many ancestors to look out for you, the shameful way you're behaving. No wonder you talk about "working with" Hel - she must be the only one who'll want you by now.

What with the constant "pity this" "pity that", was Mr. T an ancestor of yours as well?....but I'll play along, I already told you, they look out for me just fine thanks, I'll pass along your concerns to them though..................


But, no, I won't wait for you. You're a nobody. Besides, you use too much weird slang that's not in my dictionary. Only that.


Are you sure? I am almost done for the day here, and what slang? They are polite, yet sarcastic ways of saying...........oh you get the idea.

[Hærfest Leah]

#1 Mjolliner, I haven't studied too much on Hel yet and was just unsure if she was the one I needed to use. I personally feel she is right.

#2 If anyone else is going to say anymore smart a** comments stay off my thread! I don't want to read it, it's uncalled for and I WILL report you!

[Malcolm]

I'll try again I guess...



So where are you from then? Is it a language translation issue? What do you call it when you choose to have a relationship with a god or godess?

[Mjollnir]

#1 Mjolliner, I haven't studied too much on Hel yet and was just unsure if she was the one I needed to use. I personally feel she is right.

And that is the only thing that matters, your personal relationship with the gods, be they all or ones in particular.


#2 If anyone else is going to say anymore smart a** comments stay off my thread! I don't want to read it, it's uncalled for and I WILL report you!


You know something Sp, your absolutely right, I was thinking about this on my drive home, everything Rananeida said about me was absolutely true, and you know why?? it's true because I allowed her to get my fuse lit, why may you ask then did I continue? It's the internet...it's also fun...I can be a d**k all I want becasue it's the net, and she can be the unnamed anatomical part....see, I am making the effort by not even making reference to the ___"word"...that she is being for the same reason. It's the net, get over it...not you SP...the thing that got all guns blazing is the Level 12 Hereditary Heathen attitude she exudes,myself and Driffina from here went to see Amon Amarth and hung out with them after the show drinking, am I part of the band now? My g-g'father worked on the Erie Canal, am I f**king water?

You honor who you want how you want Sp, dont let anyone tell you otherwise, newcomers or self proclaimed Level 12'ers who have certificates from Thorkel Thorkelssons School of Real Homeland Heathenry.

You win Rananeida, you made me do the things I wanted to change, and thats being a complete and utter smartass jsut because I can on the 'net, congratulations, you found the last Golden Ticket, so for the sake of the thread lets bury the hatchet, ok?

Now just lay your head here on this stump.........................................

[Rananeida]

So where are you from then? Is it a language translation issue? What do you call it when you choose to have a relationship with a god or godess?
No, I think it's about a somewhat different worldview. I may work with my co-workers, but I live with my family, including the gods, assorted ancestors, spirits and animals. I have duties towards them, they have duties towards me, and we have duties together towards the family and our home as a whole, but none of it can be described as "working with" them. I'm actually a bit unsure what people actually are talking about when they use that phrase. It sounds so impersonal and business-like. Maybe you can enlighten me?

The concept of choosing to have a relationships with a god or goddess doesn't exist, either. For various reasons you develop nearer relationships with some of those around you, especially during certain periods in life, naturally, but it is far from a conscious one-sided choice like I'm led to understand is the neo-pagan approach. You might also have a fulltro* by your side for longer periods, maybe throughout your whole life, or even for generations. If you're new to them and them to you, I suppose it can be a bit like developing a closer relationship with any person or creature you don't know. You approach them, and that's basically the only choice you have, whether or not to approach them. If you can find them. And then you hope they will like you and what you have to offer. But you can't force things.

*I didn't know what word to use here, the nearest seems to be "patron", but "patron" suggests a parent/child relationship, whereas your fulltro is your equal within your relationship.

Edited to add: I beg the OP pardon for contributing to the hijacking of your thread this way (I just saw your plea, and didn't want to add to the mess with a new comment).

What I wanted with my comment to you (the very unpopular first one) was just to tell you that where I'm from it's not seen as a done thing at all to invite Hel into the house, and that having statues of people you're actually not a born/adopted/fostered descendant of, making them your ancestors, on an ancestral altar is completely unheard of. Any other altar, but not that one.

Unpopular views, apparently... ;)

[Mjollnir]

No, I think it's about a somewhat different worldview. I may work with my co-workers, but I live with my family, including the gods, assorted ancestors, spirits and animals. I have duties towards them, they have duties towards me, and we have duties together towards the family and our home as a whole, but none of it can be described as "working with" them. I'm actually a bit unsure what people actually are talking about when they use that phrase. It sounds so impersonal and business-like. Maybe you can enlighten me?

We look at it this way, while we realize the gods are around us, they dont wait around all day for us nor are they waiting to be doting on us as well.I agree with the duties, it is a relationship that gives as well as receives, we here have the "gift for a gift" mentality, while at the same time realizing that 1) the gods expect us to fend for ourselves i.e: be responsible and 2) we dont ask for their help for things we are perfectly capable of doing on our own and we certainly do not go overboard in the giving back department, meaning we dont do it "loosely". It may be a societal thing with you not understanding what we say about 'wprking with', to be honest I am not fond of it either, it is one of those phrases that seems to be ingrained from hearing it so much.


The concept of choosing to have a relationships with a god or goddess doesn't exist, either. For various reasons you develop nearer relationships with some of those around you, especially during certain periods in life, naturally, but it is far from a conscious one-sided choice like I'm led to understand is the neo-pagan approach.

Agreed.......kinda, in my case my fulltrui was around a LONG time, I was somewhat aware but only after looking more into it was it clear. I also have a few others hanging around that I am close with and yes, I would call it a relationship, again, it seems it is a societal thing, but you need to realize......that does not make it wrong.


You might also have a fulltro* by your side for longer periods, maybe throughout your whole life, or even for generations. If you're new to them and them to you, I suppose it can be a bit like developing a closer relationship with any person or creature you don't know. You approach them, and that's basically the only choice you have, whether or not to approach them. If you can find them. And then you hope they will like you and what you have to offer. But you can't force things.


Agreed, and to add it is also unwise for those to dedicate themselves to a deity without thinking it through, too often we hear of people dedicating themselves to someone only to find out it was done hastily.




What I wanted with my comment to you (the very unpopular first one) was just to tell you that where I'm from it's not seen as a done thing at all to invite Hel into the house, and that having statues of people you're actually not a born/adopted/fostered descendant of, making them your ancestors, on an ancestral altar is completely unheard of. Any other altar, but not that one.

Unpopular views, apparently... ;)


From where you come from, unpopular, but remember, we are all not from where you are, we all have our own relationships and we here in the states do not have the connection to land or homeland some others do. It is the societal discrepancies that I believe led to the difference of opinion we had and hopefully some better understanding of where we both are coming from has been achieved.

[Hærfest Leah]

Now to have my thread back......How about just asking the simple question of "What makes you want to add a deity on your ancestral altar anyways" instead of the way you responded to my idea.

And here's the answer....

I'm not making any deity my ancestor by putting them on an ancestral altar. I like the idea of it as, "Hey this is the deity I know is watching over and caring for my departed loved one, so how about I add a representation of them to the table." It might feel nice when I'm lighting a candle for & honoring my ancestors to speak to the deity and say " Hey thanks for doing the job you do, I sincerely appreciate it. By the way here's an offering for you too."

Now that was easy wasn't it.

[Ishtara]

I know next to nothing about Germanic deities so I definitely cannot comment on that. But at least from a Kemetic point of view, I do not think that this is a problem as long as you keep the rituals for each deity separate, like Redshire said.

It is not like your husband and you are "mixing and matching" deities anyway. You are sharing an altar with him and are putting a deity from your pantheon on your side; he does the same for his side.

I do not think that this would be offensive to Yinepu (Anubis).
Historically, it is not like the Ancient Egyptian pantheon was completely closed to foreign influences. There are several instances of Middle Eastern and Nubian deities being incorporated into the pantheon (no Germanic deities, though ;) ).

I hope this helps. If you want to be completely reassured that Yinepu would be OK sharing an altar with a deity from a different pantheon, you could always ask in the Egyptian subforum. I am Kemetic but not Kemetic Orthodox myself, maybe the members of the House of Netjer or other organisations could add their input :)

[Garm]

A Roman historian reported one of the German tribes worshipped Isis.

Now Tacitus described the Germanic pantheon by listing their closest Roman equivalent (Mercury for Odin, Hercules for Thor] so some scholars have concluded he was actually talking about the Goddess Nerthus. But he regarded this faith as being a foriegn import and was puzzled by it's presence so far North.

As to Hels heritage, if one's uneasy about the relationship with Loki accorded her in the lore you might want consider her lineage in terms of Indo-European reconstruction, In such schemes she is the descendant of Kolyo, Dame Holles less presentable sister and Kali's long lost Northern cousin.

[Hærfest Leah]

I know next to nothing about Germanic deities so I definitely cannot comment on that. But at least from a Kemetic point of view, I do not think that this is a problem as long as you keep the rituals for each deity separate, like Redshire said.

It is not like your husband and you are "mixing and matching" deities anyway. You are sharing an altar with him and are putting a deity from your pantheon on your side; he does the same for his side.

I do not think that this would be offensive to Yinepu (Anubis).
Historically, it is not like the Ancient Egyptian pantheon was completely closed to foreign influences. There are several instances of Middle Eastern and Nubian deities being incorporated into the pantheon (no Germanic deities, though ;) ).

I hope this helps. If you want to be completely reassured that Yinepu would be OK sharing an altar with a deity from a different pantheon, you could always ask in the Egyptian subforum. I am Kemetic but not Kemetic Orthodox myself, maybe the members of the House of Netjer or other organisations could add their input :)

Hey thanks for the Kemetic viewpoint. :cheers:

[stella01904]

And it shows you are a neo-pagan with no real heathen roots when you use expressions like "work with"...MM ~ So you are saying anyone who works with Dark Goddess energy is a neopagan?
I don't think so.
White-lighter ethics don't mix well with these things.
BB, Stella

[Rananeida]

Now to have my thread back......How about just asking the simple question of "What makes you want to add a deity on your ancestral altar anyways" instead of the way you responded to my idea.

And here's the answer....

I'm not making any deity my ancestor by putting them on an ancestral altar. I like the idea of it as, "Hey this is the deity I know is watching over and caring for my departed loved one, so how about I add a representation of them to the table." It might feel nice when I'm lighting a candle for & honoring my ancestors to speak to the deity and say " Hey thanks for doing the job you do, I sincerely appreciate it. By the way here's an offering for you too."

Now that was easy wasn't it.
Was this one to me? It's not easy to know when you don't quote what you're responding to or use a name. :)

Anyway, I didn't ask that question, because my problem with this is not that you want to have a deity there - there are many of us who can count and name gods among our ancestors - but that you want to have Hel there.

First of all, like I already said, Hel is nobody's ancestor. Only that should be enough to keep her away from an ancestral altar, which traditionally is for the family, not for people you're not related to by birth, adoption or fostering, no matter what you think you owe them of honour and gratitude.

I might add here that it's a very important, but often overseen, part of Nordic traditions that everything has its time and place, everything is done according to customs. You don't make up things as you go because you "feel it's right". Going after what you feel is right isn't to follow a tradition. To follow a tradition is to heed the customs of those who went before you. It's not for nothing that our traditions sometimes are referred to as the "forn sed" - the "ancient custom/traditon".

Second, Hel doesn't watch over anybody. The ancestors are not with her, she's just the bone-collector, a stop on the way, a gateway we all must pass through.

Third, Hel is not someone you drag into your house - if you have business with Hel before you die, you go to her, if you know the way and have the strength and the right mount. And it has to be darn important business, too - not even the gods venture to her place unless it's darn important.

If you want to honour Hel for some reason - to prepare your own or somebody else's welcome in her halls, for instance, or to prepare for a problem-free journey there for somebody who is dying, which is more important, because, after all, she welcomes all regardless - you go to a spot that's difficult to reach and find a big rock far from your house and give your offerings there in silence (a rock that's part of the ground, not a loose rock). No speeches, no ceremony. And, particularly no thanks.

Such honours are usually given - if given at all - once a year in connection to the feast called "women's day" or even "women's yule day", which nowadays is celebrated February the 2nd many places, but there are local variations as with most old traditions (following the solar calendar the women's month really begins the 12th). However it is always done during the winter half-year. The alfablot-period in late autumn seems popular with all death-related offerings these days, for instance. The offering is often a wheat cake in the shape of some valknot or other and something to drink to that.

I could go into detail how it's traditionally done in my district, give you recipes and such, but this is getting long as it is. Besides, I just discovered this is a reconstructionist forum - I didn't notice that before. There's honestly not much I can connect to in reconstructionism - as so much of it is wild speculations and guesswork with no roots in any actual traditions. And I suppose you will have difficulties connecting to the traditions I follow, too, as some have evolved somewhat over the centuries from the period you want to reconstruct, and others (local or more recent) are hardly of any interest to you as they can't be found in any books, which I understand is what you build your customs on. So I'm leaving this part of the forum now. It really isn't my place to be here, and I beg pardon for any inconvenience I've caused in my staying. :)

[Rananeida]

MM ~ So you are saying anyone who works with Dark Goddess energy is a neopagan?
I don't think so.
White-lighter ethics don't mix well with these things.
BB, Stella
Sorry, OP, I have to respond to this.

No, I say nothing about what people who "work with Dark Goddess energy" are. What I say is that the concept of "working with" the gods is neo-pagan - that is, it's a NEW CUSTOM, a very RECENT WAY OF DOING THINGS, and not based on actual (in this case) Germanic traditions and customs. And, I say it to the person I was talking to as a way to tell that I was aware that s/he and I come from different backgrounds. I was pointing to one of the things that brought me to this awareness, namely the way s/he expressed her/himself.

I also mentioned that you have to be a neo-pagan if you - and let me quote myself - "have no qualms about breaking serious traditional taboos by chatting up the "hip lady". Breaking taboos is not good, see. And here I might also add that both "dark goddesses" and "Dark Goddess energy", too, are neo-pagan concepts - they are not part of any actual northern tradition, but based, I suspect, on scholars' attempts to categorize and systematize things, as it's only in academia and among neo-pagans the concepts exist.

What is it with people who are so afraid of the word neo-pagan? Why is it that you get offended by this word? What's wrong with it? To go by the miffed reaction in here - when did it turn into an insult?

When the context is such that I can't use a less general word, I use it about any follower of the new pagan traditions that have been sprouting in the west in the shadow of a declining Christian culture this last century, give or take, be they reconstruction-attemtps like åsatru, or new ones like wicca. Are there other uses that I am not aware of?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Nantonos]

I could go into detail how it's traditionally done in my district, give you recipes and such, but this is getting long as it is. Besides, I just discovered this is a reconstructionist forum - I didn't notice that before. There's honestly not much I can connect to in reconstructionism - as so much of it is wild speculations and guesswork with no roots in any actual traditions. And I suppose you will have difficulties connecting to the traditions I follow, too, as some have evolved somewhat over the centuries from the period you want to reconstruct, and others (local or more recent) are hardly of any interest to you as they can't be found in any books, which I understand is what you build your customs on. So I'm leaving this part of the forum now. It really isn't my place to be here, and I beg pardon for any inconvenience I've caused in my staying. :)

I would encourage you to describe more about your non-reconstructed tradition - as you say, in a more suitable thread - but please do start one. I'm sure that many would be interested to hear of the traditions you speak of.

[Driffinna]

Obviously recons do not mix and match deities and only in rare cases is it accepted as long as both deities do not oppose eachother.

My husband and I have put together a joint ancestral altar, the only thing is that he has a statue of Anubis on his side & I'm thinking of adding Hel to my side.

Does anyone see any conflict here? And would there be a better Germanic deity to use for my side given her being related to Loki?

While I am kind of "iffy" on the matter, I would say as long as you keep the norse deities on your side and the eygptian on his there shouldn't be too many qualms.

[Driffinna]

How you look at things and like to split your hairs is not of my concerns, fortunately, neither do I have any problems with Hel. But she is nobody's ancestor. No matter how you look at her, she has no children, born or adopted, that anybody could descend from. She is a relative at such a distance that any pebble on the pavement outside your house is a closer cousin to you than she is. And, no matter how she gets her stuff, she takes it. If you think she's been giving you something back, it's my conviction you're in for big disillusions.

No one is saying anyone is the direct descendant of any Hel or any other gods, however most of the Heathens Mjollnir and I know (which equivelates to the entire northeast united states community and then some) would say that the gods in the broadest sense of the term are our Elder Kin and are the gods of our ancestors. So you can stop saying now the Hel is nobody’s ancestor, we already know.


And, it shows you're a neo-pagan, with no real heathen roots, when you use expressions like "work with" and "in charge of the souls", and have no qualms about breaking serious traditional taboos by chatting up the "hip lady". Nothing wrong with being a neo-pagan, mind you, but it shows where you're NOT from, so please quit talking about heathens in such generalising tones as if your personal views are universal. It's very annoying. It's apparent to me from the way you express your beliefs and customs that I'm definitely not one of those heathens you talk about, and that you and I have very little in common.

You know nothing about Mjollnir, so why are you assuming here? So don’t go running off with your mouth about that which you don’t know. Mjollnir asked you serious questions politely and you jumped for his throat. You are the one who made this discussion an argument, there was no need to be as rude as you were. As far as your taboo, obviously that seems to apply to “your district” but certainly does not to all. Did not the Seidth-kona go and “chat up the hip lady” as you call it? None of us are saying that Hel is someone to frolic and have a tea party with, however there are people who have obviously developed some sort of relationship with her- both in the past and today. I assure you these people are not neo-pagan, but are completely serious about their beliefs, some of the most prominent figures in the Northeast community, and some of the best damn Heathens I know, you would be lucky to ever be privileged to meet them.


And, if I seem a bit huffy it's just my regular reaction to sweeping generalisations and serious custom-breaking, no offense given. Oh, and there's also something in your tone that I actually peceive as haughty snootiness. You might not have meant it that way, so no offense taken in that respect, but you might want to adjust yourself.

As far as your Huffy, don’t go and insult someone and then try to take it back with a disclaimer at the end. The disclaimer just makes the person more insulted. It makes it seem like you can’t stand up for your own words. If you don’t mean to come across as condescending perhaps you are the one who needs to adjust your tone.


Ooooh! What have we here? An Edda-thumper? Should I be afraid or impressed, or something? *grins teasingly* I find it incredibly amusing every time somebody pulls out the "lore" and use that particular acronym.

No offense - we live in different worlds, that's all.

Being we are not from your precious special district that apparently has some incites that magically escaped Christianization, we go by the writings of ancient scholars and present archeologists and anthropologists. No where in the anything I or Mjollnir read has ever described Hel as eating bones or even keeping bones. The bones seemed to stay in the burial in the mound or burned in the funeral pyre from all of the Sagas and historical evidence I have read. Again the disclaimer… “I am gonna insult you and call you names and then deny its an insult so you look like the bad guy when you get upset.” Nice.


I'm not questioning your faith, nor am I mocking you. That's all in your head. I am seriusly pitying your roots and your ancestors who have to do with a descendant like you. The way you talked to me in your poisonous comment is soiling all those before you and shaming all those after you, should there be any - gods forbid.

I made excuses for being huffy and for maybe taking things the wrong way in my very first comment to you - I even excused your offensive suggestion about "working with" Hel because I knew you're just ignorant and from a different background - but your insults and your rudeness in your later comment, and now this, makes me take them all back.

I’m not mocking you… but pity your ancestors? Yea that sounds good. From what I am reading here, you started the insults first. Excuses and disclaimers mean nothing once you have seriously insulted someone. If you are going to say something stand by it, even if it is an insult. You said it, so take responsibility for it. You are the one who came in with the “more Heathen than thou” attitude.


Looks to me you're having big problems with understanding your precious "lore", name-caller. You're using Havamål as Olav used the cross, and achieve nothing but making a complete fool of yourself.

If we don’t use the lore as the foundation for heathen pre-christian beliefs, than what are we suppose to use? What does your oh so much more Heathen than the rest of the world’s “district” use?


And, why so touchy about being called a neo-pagan? That's what you are, isn't it. Are you ashamed or something? Is it something bad in your eyes being one?

Neo-pagan is often used to describe people who a very “light and fluffy” in the ethics, who often refuse to acknowledge that the world is not all rainbows and butterflies. They also often like to mix and match gods and beliefs from cultures as if they were at an all you can eat multi-cultural buffet. They do very little research into these beliefs and gods other than the google search found website that has two sentences on the matter, and therefore their willful ignorance doesn’t allow them at all to understand what they claim to believe. Any attempts by more serious followers to help them understand better are usually chided by them as oppression of their beliefs by the closed minded. This is why your use of the term Neo-pagan has gotten a few people on the thread very upset. I know very few Heathens and Asatruar who would refer to themselves as Neo-pagan. I even know a few who would go as far to not call themselves Pagan with out the neo.


You really don't realize nobody is attacking you, do you.

If you weren’t, you certainly came across that way with your condescending tone.


And, for the record, I don't have all that many Christian ancestors, but I honour them, too, each and every one of them. I don't insult them by deliberately misspelling the adjective describing which faith they belong to.

Actually, more than I pity your poor ancestors, Christian or otherwise, who have such one as you for a descendant, I pity you who can't have all that many ancestors to look out for you, the shameful way you're behaving. No wonder you talk about "working with" Hel - she must be the only one who'll want you by now.

For the record Mjollnir doesn’t “work with” Hel all that often. He’s got a much closer relationship with Thor, but I suppose you couldn’t get that from his user name. And I would worry more about your ancestors looking out for you than his with the pompous way you have been throwing around your conceit.


No, I think it's about a somewhat different worldview. I may work with my co-workers, but I live with my family, including the gods, assorted ancestors, spirits and animals. I have duties towards them, they have duties towards me, and we have duties together towards the family and our home as a whole, but none of it can be described as "working with" them. I'm actually a bit unsure what people actually are talking about when they use that phrase. It sounds so impersonal and business-like. Maybe you can enlighten me?


The term “working with” doesn’t always refer to consciously choosing a deity. It also can be very much what you just described. While some people go consciously out and say they are going to try to form a relationship with the god so and so, many of us do not. Usually newer people tend to, consciously decide on a god to “work with.” But as you said these relationships can’t be forced and many times people wind up with very different gods than whom they first thought they should be with. For example in the Asatru community it is common for many people to want to “work with” Odin early on. However many of them will wind up “working with” completely different gods, only a few years or even months later. Most of them will not say this happened because they sat down one day and decided now I am going to work with someone else. Its because while studying the “lore” (that term you have issues with), or during a blot, or even a dream, etc they found something about that particular god which they found related to themselves, called to them, or for other various numerous reasons, which developed into a relationship between both god and person, which you called fulltro. “Working with” is a poor term to describe this, but it’s the only one most of us know. It is discouraged for someone to just decide a deity is their fulltro one day without much thought. To go and dedicate yourself to a particular god without already having a close relationship with them is considered foolish. This relationship I would probably describe again as you put it as being one of equals, than anything else. However I do know some people who believe we are below the gods, would not describe the relationship as equals.


I could go into detail how it's traditionally done in my district, give you recipes and such, but this is getting long as it is. Besides, I just discovered this is a reconstructionist forum - I didn't notice that before. There's honestly not much I can connect to in reconstructionism - as so much of it is wild speculations and guesswork with no roots in any actual traditions.

How you didn’t know this is a recon forum is beyond me, being it says it on the label. And reconstructionism has nothing to do with wild speculations and guess work. And I have a feeling our traditions are more similar than you probably realize. What little you have describe with the ‘women’s day’ is extremely similar to what we call Dísablót. If you ever actually did some research into what it is we do instead of assuming you would know that. I would like you to go into the details of the traditions from the district that somehow escaped being Christianized and is completely unbased on any lore. But I suppose that could be for another thread.

[Hærfest Leah]

Driffinna, Thanks for your opinion in the 1st reply & damn....thanks for the 2nd post too. And for the record, I sure couldn't find anything in it to disagree with.

[Rananeida]

[...]
Oh my, that's an impressive amount of words you're dishing up there. And I thought I was longwinded. Yes, I'm really impressed here. All that trouble just to tell me that you're ever so much better than me at both assumption-making and condescending.

For the rest, I don't find your opinions worth taking into any sort of consideration whatsoever. It might have been different had you settled for a "Stupid Rananeida, leave my buddy alone!" or some such.

---


I would encourage you to describe more about your non-reconstructed tradition - as you say, in a more suitable thread - but please do start one. I'm sure that many would be interested to hear of the traditions you speak of.
I will indeed consider that. Can you suggest a forum or thread where such an article would be welcome?

[Nantonos]

I will indeed consider that. Can you suggest a forum or thread where such an article would be welcome?

I suggest directly in Paths
http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=86

[Driffinna]

Oh my, that's an impressive amount of words you're dishing up there. And I thought I was longwinded. Yes, I'm really impressed here. All that trouble just to tell me that you're ever so much better than me at both assumption-making and condescending.

For the rest, I don't find your opinions worth taking into any sort of consideration whatsoever. It might have been different had you settled for a "Stupid Rananeida, leave my buddy alone!" or some such.


And if you had not said "asatru/germanic recons obviously have no idea what they are doing and are not really heathen" I wouldn't have responded as thus and would have given your opinions much more value as well.

[Renny]

Wow, has anyone tried to answer her question recently or has this turned into a Heathen fight? Seems every time I see Heathens post they are angry and bickering : (

Anyway, even though I will get flamed for this, I think that whatever feels "right" to place on your ancestral altar is what you should go with. Maybe there is a certain reason behind putting Hel on there. You could also put pictures of your family and objects/heirlooms of your ancestors. I recently found a set of family rings with our symbol on them (a mermaid), my mother's side of my family is strong German and comes from Frisia or Friesland. So if you have something like that to use I think that would make a strong addition to the altar.

It's all about what you feel best represents your ancestors. And the Egyptian thing shouldn't be a problem because the whole point of it is ancestral, you and your husband have joined and become family so I doubt Egyptian/German would conflict.

[Malcolm]

Heathens always fight....:viking:

Usually its not personal though.

[Hærfest Leah]

Wow, has anyone tried to answer her question recently or has this turned into a Heathen fight? Seems every time I see Heathens post they are angry and bickering : (

Anyway, even though I will get flamed for this, I think that whatever feels "right" to place on your ancestral altar is what you should go with. Maybe there is a certain reason behind putting Hel on there. You could also put pictures of your family and objects/heirlooms of your ancestors. I recently found a set of family rings with our symbol on them (a mermaid), my mother's side of my family is strong German and comes from Frisia or Friesland. So if you have something like that to use I think that would make a strong addition to the altar.

It's all about what you feel best represents your ancestors. And the Egyptian thing shouldn't be a problem because the whole point of it is ancestral, you and your husband have joined and become family so I doubt Egyptian/German would conflict.

Thanks for the reply, we have no family heirlooms (which makes me sick at times) as far as I know but I'll try to find more personal things to add. :hahugh:

[Malcolm]

Thanks for the reply, we have no family heirlooms (which makes me sick at times) as far as I know but I'll try to find more personal things to add

Seems like an excellent opportunity to start a couple.

[Hærfest Leah]

Seems like an excellent opportunity to start a couple.

I agree and will do, trust me. :)

[Malcolm]

I've been wanting to do the same thing myself. I just haven't decided what yet.

[cowdragon]

We actually just added a small self-made statue of Set to our altar. The reason for this is my family ancestory is from Sweden. But they lived in Egypt for several generations before moving back. The egyptian blood is in there. :) Also, I like Set. He protest the world from the serpent every day if I remember correctly.


The Cowdragon _wiz_

[Rananeida]

I suggest directly in Paths
http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=86
Thank you!

[Rick]

Wow, has anyone tried to answer her question recently or has this turned into a Heathen fight? Seems every time I see Heathens post they are angry and bickering : (
Well yeah... it's what we do... we're not fluffybunnywiccawannabeewhitelighters, after all.

Anyway, even though I will get flamed for this, I think that whatever feels "right" to place on your ancestral altar is what you should go with.
OK... http://bestsmileys.com/fire/2.gif ... :T

Maybe there is a certain reason behind putting Hel on there. You could also put pictures of your family and objects/heirlooms of your ancestors. I recently found a set of family rings with our symbol on them (a mermaid), my mother's side of my family is strong German and comes from Frisia or Friesland. So if you have something like that to use I think that would make a strong addition to the altar.
Couldn't agree more.

It's all about what you feel best represents your ancestors. And the Egyptian thing shouldn't be a problem because the whole point of it is ancestral, you and your husband have joined and become family so I doubt Egyptian/German would conflict.
Egyptian/German would conflict? Well... probably, but that's not the point. As you've so aptly pointed out, it's their ancestral altar, not just his or hers. When you take someone as your mate, you take on that person's orlog, so just stands to reason that you take on their ancestors, too. When Elise & I got handfasted, taking each other's ancestors was part of our vows (and believe me, I got the better of that deal... my ancestors were kicked out of some of the finest countries in the world 8O ).

[Hærfest Leah]

Oh Rick, why ya gotta be so funny? hehe

[Rick]

Oh Rick, why ya gotta be so funny? hehe
It's my job, I take it seriously... :abanana: