In What Way Do You Find Atheism Insufficient?

[Snapdragon]

My answer is twofold.

First, I cannot account for the fact of Being. Not of this or that being--tables, animals, water, etc.--but of Being. "That there is..." is what I cannot account for. "Big Bang" theories do not explain anything...because that presupposes Being, as well.

Someone I knew once expressed this as "Isness." It is the fact of "isness" that atheism does not address. To talk about chemical reactions or sexual reproduction and all the rest, is entirely off the issue; the question, once again, is not that of beings but of Being: the fact "that there is..." When I give my attention to this, reflect on it, I do truly feel wonder, and awe, and sometimes that feeling Pascal expressed as a sense of uncanniness.

The other way in which I find a-theism insufficient is through experience. This is much harder for me to communicate, so I'll just say that my experience of Power fits more with my sense of the Mystery of Being (mentioned above), whereas all atheism can offer in this regard is to talk about what you had to eat this morning or what your love life is like. These do not suffice; the sacred cannot be reduced to a burp or a bump in calories.

How about you? In what way do you find a-theism insufficient?

[Toby Stimpson]

I can see the potential for this to become a big flame message board *rolls eyes*

Anyways, personally I don't find Atheism insufficient. In some ways it does adeqautly address so amny different things. personally and I take atheism from the stan point of believeing in soemthing higher I see atheism as a natural part of the order because an athiest mindset is to somehow focus on the here and now, what can be seen and what can be tested. I don't see atheism as a threat to my own beliefs, becasue i have faith in my own beliefs....I actually find atheism as a check and balance becasue whenever an atheist has asked me a question in all good faith it has challeneged my 'held' beliefs and shook them. Those that were not able to soemhow survive I see as not being real to me. Its a wonderful way to really test one's 'faith' blah whetever faith is. But I also find atheism to be honest to soem degree...we all believe that there is a higher being, and yet we use so many physical metaphors to make up what it or he or she is...metaphors that exist as physical objects and what not here. For soem they guide us to soem kind of faith in an afterlife, or a God being, and yet to atheists they are manifestations of the universe that we are part of. I also find atheism to be quite powerful really because Atheism forces us to delve and find answers and look for ourselves...its true that soem athiests know more about the bible than soem christians do and thats becasue they do hopefully go out to find answers for themselves....if you know what I mean. If any of that made any sense really...blah its like almost 1 am and a looong day just thought it was an interesting thing to comment on Snap :).

Namaste

Tobias

[Snapdragon]

*chuckles* I thought something was afoot, G...when I saw all the typos. Very unlike you--please comment more, when you have a new day under your belt. I know you're typically quite exacting in your comments, so I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but you're supporting your case that Atheism is "insufficient" with evidence from your own biased religiosity?

[DoktorSick]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but you're supporting your case that Atheism is "insufficient" with evidence from your own biased religiosity?
Word is born!

"whereas all atheism can offer in this regard is to talk about what you had to eat this morning or what your love life is like. These do not suffice; the sacred cannot be reduced to a burp or a bump in calories."

This just shows a lack of imagination of all the possible things one could talk about. And "sacred" that's a matter of opinion. And what is so mundane about burp or a bump in calories ?Seems like you are not clearly away of the amazing internal workings of the human body.

[Amelserru_halqu]

I've always thought that atheism was either "There is no god." or "I will not serve." Personally I'll play whatever role I need to and avoid firm long term beliefs at all. I'll play Christian, Muslim, a tuna fish sandwich, or whatever suits me at the time. Though I suppose my base religion/philosophy is somewhat like Taoism.

The true question is what is god? Is god a reflection of man or man a reflection of god? More probable is a combination of the two, though I think man created god as a concept for attaining something (probably a form of social control), meaning that the created god molded its creators as time went on. So perhaps god is not the origin of man but that doesn't stop the concept of god from being a valuable tool.

So then is god worth worshiping? While to me god is a personification of the entirety of the uni/multiverse, a concept created and broken down so that we can comprehend some of its magnitude. (From the breaking down we created good and evil (which depends on perspectives about what is good for society or personal power).) But even if god is a perfect almighty being is it worth giving up the freedom that we are all born with, the right to think for ourselves? A freedom which is not encouraged (quite the opposite really) and barely exists in the "free" world due to the large numbers of non-thinkers (AKA cabbages) who have social power. That is for you to decide. Personally I will throw myself into the fires of hell before I give up that right. If a god offers me life eternal I will still cry, Non servium!

But is atheism, as in there is no god, adequate then? In certain circumstances yes, in others no. But then again I am an Atheist, a Pantheist, a monotheist, a polytheist, and on occasion an animist so who knows or cares what I think. Besides the desert sun has fried my brain until it looks like burnt toast so draw your own conclusions.

One final story:
Non servium! Cried the dinosaurs so a rock wiped them out. Non servium! Cried the ostridges and penguins so their flight was taken away from them.
Non servium! Cried the dolphins and they were caught in nets and killed.
Spare us! Cried the humans and they lost everything.

[Choro's Mom]

::shrug::

The same way a belief in a deity or deities is "insufficient": both require a firm belief in something that cannot be proven at all.

Atheism (a belief that there IS no deity) is not "insufficient" for those who truly believe anymore than any other belief system is "insufficient" for those who accept it.

In what way is ANY belief system "insufficient"?

[_Banbha_]

Atheism is more natural than all the artifical 'faith' constructs with the dogma and rules, that generally attempt to remove humans from the natural world, into the controlling contrivance of herd animals. Atheism is freeing, both spiritually and intellectually.

[Toby Stimpson]

I am going to have to disagree with you Wylde, partly...no one can say that statement about anything becasue a rleigion, faith construct, or strong belief is an object that is used by people. HOW it is used by people determines if it is controlling of others or not. I mean one could say that science does exactly what you said religion does becasue it forces people into one set of views and a herd mentality. I think you are right, but what you are saying is not always true and it depends upon WHO is using it or sheltering themselves with it. Know what i mean?

namaste

Tobias

[_Banbha_]

I am going to have to disagree with you WyldeThat's O.K., I'm used to it.:) Besides, it gives us something to talk about.
partly...no one can say that statement about anything becasue a rleigion, faith construct, or strong belief is an object that is used by people. HOW it is used by people determines if it is controlling of others or not. Yes, the HOW is important and I have eons of empirical evidence that prooves it's been used to the hilt, badly. Even benignly, religion often (not always) promotes delusions. I'm not saying those delusions don't provide comfort, I've indulged myself from time to time. For me the study of religion is the study of human nature more than the divine.
I mean one could say that science does exactly what you said religion does becasue it forces people into one set of views and a herd mentality. Umm, scientific theories are not based on faith and they evolve as evidence is uncovered and understood. Could you give me an example of sceince forcing people into a set of beliefs? I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It's not scientists who burned people at the stake for being too church.
I think you are right, but what you are saying is not always true and it depends upon WHO is using it or sheltering themselves with it. Know what i mean?

namaste

TobiasI'm not going to disagree with you...until I hear examples:hahugh: I'm not a great believer in absolutes, particularly when human nature is involved, so I'm sure we both could come up with some stuff. Then we can debate the effect... :hmmmmm: Peace, W. Dryad

[Toby Stimpson]

yes it does give us soemthing talk about :D. Im up for a debate!

Hmm examples, well one that hits home for me for example. And this is aided by religion but there are soem athiests who through culture just see this as being a good thing...gay gene theory. Some scientists believe that there is a gay gene responsible for homosexuality...even if it is argued against or disproven it's hold over people will be that "oh theres a gay gene responsible for it...that must mean that soemthing is wrong with you after all." Another example is the faith in the race idea... science has been used in the past to try and create a theory that would discriminate based upon race. One classic one I learned in science class in that "science that went too far" type of lectures was the one where in the 60s (??) a man took skulls of an Asian male, a Caucasion male, and Negro male and filling them with rice decided to calculate how much brain mass could exist. Finding so called 'results' (which were actually majorly messed up due to him shaking the skulls slightly to create more room) he used his findings to perpetuate already existing stereotypes. These stereotypes were ofcoruse that 'Black people have less space in their heads so ofcours ethey must be dumb, asians have more space so they must be smart, and white people have average capacity." This did create a following until they were proven to be wrong and society changed, yet out there white supremacist groups use this study to indoctrinate people. ( Ill try and find a link to all that!) Now I didnt mean to say that scienbce entirely does this but when ever a theory coems out...especially one that is popular, there is a wonderful want for humans to put faith into it...science though is good becasue it is easier for science to disprove and prove things. But again, I do think it is all about how one uses it.

I WILL have better examples if I can find some...this is going to be fun :)

Tobias

[Vincent Verthaine]

If an atheist has no problem with atheism,how is that insufficient?

Spirituallity is a personal decision,if an atheist doesn't want to believe in a deity,thats their business.
Trying to convince an atheist that there is a god is as foolish and futile as an atheist trying to convince a religious person there is no god.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I'm going to have to agree with Choro's Mom here, both theistic belief and atheistic belief are still beliefs, requiring that human element of drawing you own conclusions based on your human experiences, so if one is *truly* insufficient, so are the others.

That said, on the problem of Being, you might check out a nontheistic POV in the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna and his writings on emptiness. It's quite eloquent.

[_Banbha_]

If an atheist has no problem with atheism,how is that insufficient?That's a good point and why I ignored that part of the post.


Spirituallity is a personal decision,if an atheist doesn't want to believe in a deity,thats their business.
Trying to convince an atheist that there is a god is as foolish and futile as an atheist trying to convince a religious person there is no god.

[_Banbha_]

Word is born!
Snapdragon said:
"whereas all atheism can offer in this regard is to talk about what you had to eat this morning or what your love life is like. These do not suffice; the sacred cannot be reduced to a burp or a bump in calories."
DoktorSick replied:
This just shows a lack of imagination of all the possible things one could talk about. And "sacred" that's a matter of opinion. And what is so mundane about burp or a bump in calories? Seems like you are not clearly away of the amazing internal workings of the human body.:lol: I've gone through periods of being agnostic Catholic, Pagan Atheist and Humanist, and Celtic re-con Pantheist. I don't take Divinity literally. I don't need to cast a circle or join in formal ritual because all is sacred to me. Every stone and blade of grass. The human body and it's process's are an amazing thing. I revel in the dawn during my ocean run along the shore. This is just one way I connect with my "amazing internal workings." It's a wonderous thing how sacred and spiritual existance can be, when you're free of "religion"

[_Banbha_]

yes it does give us soemthing talk about :D. Im up for a debate!

Hmm examples, well one that hits home for me for example. And this is aided by religion but there are soem athiests who through culture just see this as being a good thing...gay gene theory. Some scientists believe that there is a gay gene responsible for homosexuality...even if it is argued against or disproven it's hold over people will be that "oh theres a gay gene responsible for it...that must mean that soemthing is wrong with you after all." Another example is the faith in the race idea... science has been used in the past to try and create a theory that would discriminate based upon race. One classic one I learned in science class in that "science that went too far" type of lectures was the one where in the 60s (??) a man took skulls of an Asian male, a Caucasion male, and Negro male and filling them with rice decided to calculate how much brain mass could exist. Finding so called 'results' (which were actually majorly messed up due to him shaking the skulls slightly to create more room) he used his findings to perpetuate already existing stereotypes. These stereotypes were ofcoruse that 'Black people have less space in their heads so ofcours ethey must be dumb, asians have more space so they must be smart, and white people have average capacity." This did create a following until they were proven to be wrong and society changed, yet out there white supremacist groups use this study to indoctrinate people. ( Ill try and find a link to all that!) Now I didnt mean to say that scienbce entirely does this but when ever a theory coems out...especially one that is popular, there is a wonderful want for humans to put faith into it...science though is good becasue it is easier for science to disprove and prove things. But again, I do think it is all about how one uses it.

I WILL have better examples if I can find some...this is going to be fun :)

TobiasThese are examples of psuedoscience used to promote political or social ideas. Science is all about dabate, and religion is , at it's core, all about blind faith and dogma. People seem to debate interpretations of Dogma. People will use whatever tools at thier disposal in attemt to sway others. In the end, the truth prevails to those who are interested. For example, proof for the 'gay gene' remains elusive. This disappoints some on both sides. link here (http://www.gene-watch.org/programs/privacy/gene-sexuality.html)Off topic: I watched a documentary about a man searching for scientific proof that homosexuality exists in animals. He found it in some funny places. The most definative was a researcher who placed two ewes in a stalls with only their rumps showing, both were in season and a intact ram in a third stall in the same situation. 10% of rams only wanted rams when left to their own devices. I forget exactly what the researcher was studying this but she wasn't looking for gay rams. Nature is like that.8O

[equinox2]

WyldeDryad wrote:


I've gone through periods of being agnostic Catholic, Pagan Atheist and Humanist, and Celtic re-con Pantheist. I don't take Divinity literally. .... Every stone and blade of grass. The human body and it's process's are an amazing thing. I revel in the dawn during my ocean run along the shore. This is just one way I connect with my "amazing internal workings." It's a wonderous thing how sacred and spiritual existance can be....

Sounds like Naturalistic Paganism. Have you checked it out? There is a yahoo group of us in my .sig file.


I watched a documentary about a man searching for scientific proof that homosexuality exists in animals.

Yep. Have you seen this list of the dozens of kinds of animals which have been documented as having some homosexual members?:lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_practicing_homosexual_behavior

Take care-

[Meabh23]

Atheism is much like any other set of beliefs in that it claims that its beliefs are not really "beliefs" or "assumptions" but are just "observations" on 'reality'.
Sounds like an incredibly complex line of "One True Way (to see reality)" BS to me.

I admit that religious views are beliefs, but so are non-religious views.

[cheddarsox]

On the subject of science...(my favorite) with some regularity "Science" discovers some "fact" and makes statements or suggestions based on said "fact" which is later proven to be not true, or only true under certain specific conditions etc.

Many people have lost their lives due to erroneous scientific information, bad medicines, faulty technology etc. etc.

I'm a scientist, and like most good scientists, a healthy sceptic, not too quick to join the bandwagon of making big "Pronouncements".

The universe is so complex.

I have a healthy respect for science, and for religion. They both serve useful purposes in human culture, but they can both cause lots of trouble as well. Here is my personal Rx, Apply as needed, take no more than neccessary, best taken with caution, Warning...habit forming.

Atheism seems sufficient for lots of folks.But personally, it wouldn't give me enough to "do". My faith explains what I experience in life...and it keeps me busy with useful purposeful activity. So it serves.

cheddar

[Jolixte]

I'm an atheist somedays, and it's perfectly sufficient when I need it.

[Little Billy]

Atheism fails for me because it is too optimistic.

Little Billy,
Suspects that the Gods ALL exist, and they're universally malevolent.

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

Athiesm is insuffecent for me. That doesn't make Athiesm itself insufficent. I feel there is some sort of higher conscienousness, and Atheism doesn't account for that. However, if one doesn't feel there is a higher being, then it's quite sufficent.

LB, Cthulhu fthagan?

[Meabh23]

Atheism fails for me because it is too optimistic.

Little Billy,
Suspects that the Gods ALL exist, and they're universally malevolent.

That sounds like you had a rough day.