The Virgin in Mythology(including Catholocism)

[Ceres]

I have been thinking about this a long time, but I would like some fresh input. Do you think the virgin is a powerful figure in mythology? Do you think catholocism made her weak by adopting that part of mythology in the form of Mary and then making her submissive? Is she submissive in your view? Joan of Arc seems a strangely powerful virgin figure and is part of catholic mythology and history. It seems confusing.....

[Ceres]

:No takers? And here I thought if the word virgin was in the thread title it would be a sure sell. :rolleyes:

[Toby Stimpson]

I'll take it I'll take it Radika!!!!!

Well, personally, and just seeing catholics pray to the Blessed Mother, I find her to be more powerful in Catholicism than any other Christian religion. The Virgin though is an archetype that is ancient. virginity has been for a long time a symbol of purity and freedom. The Virgin Goddess Artemis, one of the stronger Goddesses in the Greek pantheon and her counterparts from Asia Minor and Rome. You also find the many virgins of Egypt who through miracle had children, Isis is among them. While all of these lead Christinas to a form of the Virgin Mary I think the archetype is much larger than her and indeed any of these goddesses becasue they come down to a level that we can understand and respect. Virginity is also seen as a sign of innocence, which to some cultures is a looked after treasure. A virgin may very much be innocent of sexuality which many religions condemn as mere matters of the flesh, and so in that way it is also a sign of spirituality. It all comes down to one's idea of sexuality though, either way virginity can become a negetive thing or a positive thing. Also if you look at so many of the religions of the east, virginity is an important part. Most Goddesses such as laxmi or Sarasvati are virgins in many myths, and the most important Goddeses in the Shakti tradition who are mothers are worshippd in virgin states also. A great example is the national Goddess Kumari who is seen as a Balaavatar of Parvati, and is worshipped as a little girl before puberty. When the chosen girl who embodies the Goddess reaches puberty, she is sent away to live a normal human life and a new child is found. She is ofcoruse a Virgin Goddess. So, I think in Catholicism has taken the mythos becasue of it's importance to many and including their own cultural and religious ideas.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Hmmm... I don't think the virgin is necessarily a weak character. It depends on how you treat it. Artemis is a pretty kick-@$$ virginal character.

I dunno. I suppose it's really whether you're a virgin simply by not having had sex or whether you're a virgin because you derive power from your virginity.

Mary just strikes me as one of those who just hasn't had sex. But then again, I'm not Catholic.

I don't know if that's a trend that started with Christianity, though.

[Maggie]

I have been thinking about this a long time, but I would like some fresh input. Do you think the virgin is a powerful figure in mythology? Do you think catholocism made her weak by adopting that part of mythology in the form of Mary and then making her submissive? Is she submissive in your view? Joan of Arc seems a strangely powerful virgin figure and is part of catholic mythology and history. It seems confusing.....

Caveat--I am not as well read in history and comparative religions as many others on this forum. This is just my impressions from what I have come across....

The virgin seems to be something of a widespread archetype like the hero, the creator, battle frenzy, seer......many religions have a virgin figure.

IMO, the Catholic church didn't have a whole lot to do with "adopting", at least formerly. The worship of Mary grew over time, it was a popular movement and not church led. I'm not so sure Mary is seen as submissive, one of her contemporary titles is "Queen of Heaven." Joan of Arc is certainly not submissive. They are both, however, good examples of why we shouldn't make assumptions about the status of women based on the existance of powerful goddesses in a culture.

Maggie

[Garm]

The virgin thing is just another case of the mundane interpertation of an esoteric symbol giving us an absurdity. The underlying concept is similiar to that of the "Unknown God", another one the early Christians badly misunderstood.

Both are symbols for a reality that is totaly inaccsesable to human conciousness, the virgin simply serves as a metaphor.

[Cassie]

The word that is translated into english from varoius languages and traditions does not always mean a woman who has not had sex. It can also simply mean a young woman or an un-married woman.
My interpretation of the Virgin aspect of the Goddess is as young, fiery, powerful, passionate and independent female archetype who may well be very sexually active.

[Maggie]

The virgin thing is just another case of the mundane interpertation of an esoteric symbol giving us an absurdity. The underlying concept is similiar to that of the "Unknown God", another one the early Christians badly misunderstood.

Both are symbols for a reality that is totaly inaccsesable to human conciousness, the virgin simply serves as a metaphor.

I don't think the 'cult' of Mary became popular until at least the Middle Ages. The earliest Christians were Jewish, hasn't there been some evidence of a Sophia found in some small Jewish houses of worship? Is she thought to be a virgin?


"....mundane interpretation of an esoteric symbol giving us an absurdity." Can you explain further?


Maggie

[Maggie]

Hmmm... I don't think the virgin is necessarily a weak character. It depends on how you treat it. Artemis is a pretty kick-@$$ virginal character.

I dunno. I suppose it's really whether you're a virgin simply by not having had sex or whether you're a virgin because you derive power from your virginity.

Mary just strikes me as one of those who just hasn't had sex. But then again, I'm not Catholic.

I don't know if that's a trend that started with Christianity, though.

Mary is popularly supposed to not have had sex, since Jesus was an immaculate conception. There have been a great many heated arguements over the years about the phrase in the bible about Jesus' brothers. The cult as it developed seems to have developed a dependance on Mary staying chaste throughout her entire life.

I don't think it started with Christianity either. As someone else mentioned, Diana was a virgin, wasn't Kwan Yin also?

Maggie

[David19]

I never saw Mary as 'weak', and i don't think Catholic's portray her as that, like someone else said, one of her title's is Queen of heaven, so she's obvously quite powerful.

Also, Joan of Arc was a warrior, so she wasn't a 'weak' character.

[Maggie]

Hmmm... I don't think the virgin is necessarily a weak character. It depends on how you treat it. Artemis is a pretty kick-@$$ virginal character.

I dunno. I suppose it's really whether you're a virgin simply by not having had sex or whether you're a virgin because you derive power from your virginity.

Mary just strikes me as one of those who just hasn't had sex. But then again, I'm not Catholic.

I don't know if that's a trend that started with Christianity, though.

Mary is popularly supposed to not have had sex, since Jesus was an immaculate conception. There have been a great many heated arguements over the years about the phrase in the bible about Jesus' brothers. The cult as it developed seems to have developed a dependance on Mary staying chaste throughout her entire life.

I don't think it started with Christianity either. As someone else mentioned, Diana was a virgin, wasn't Kwan Yin also?

Maggie

[Ceres]

I never saw Mary as 'weak', and i don't think Catholic's portray her as that, like someone else said, one of her title's is Queen of heaven, so she's obvously quite powerful.

Also, Joan of Arc was a warrior, so she wasn't a 'weak' character.

Growing up catholic, my impression of Mary was submissive and gentle. She was definitely stripped of any real power; You could pray to her to intercede with God, but not to actually do anything herself. Queen of Heaven doesnt mean power so much as position, especially when its in the context of a patriarchal society. Joan of Arc seems an anomaly, doesnt she?

This differs from how I have seen various virgin goddesses treated in mythology. They are powerful.

[Ceres]

Oops delete this please?

[Arion]

The Virgin Mary doesn't seem submissive to me. True, she is not God, but Christianity is a monotheism after all, so that position has already been filled. I think the idea that she is unequal to God comes from Wiccans who like to have balance between male and female deity, and since God is typically seen as male, Mary seems like the female counterpart, yet she is not equal to God. However, Christians don't really put much emphasis on male/female balance. God is genderless, known as male, female or whatever, it doesn't matter. God is just God.

Mary is the Mother of God, the bringer of God into the flesh. She is pure, without sin. I don't know why having sex is thought of as such a dirty, sinful practice, but whatever. As the mother of Jesus, she is also the mother of the Church and the mother of all humanity. She is even the Queen of Heaven. Mary is very important part of Catholicism. Not submissive to God, just seperate. Although, different people will interpret her position dfferently.

The Hail Mary prayer is very beautiful, aswell:

Hail Mary, full of grace! the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I read somewhere that Greek virgin goddesses like Artemis and Athena weren't celibate until the rise of patriarchy in Greece and the Classical Olympian pantheon developed. Before that, they were sexual, yet still independent. I don't know why they became de-sexed later on.

To me, the virgin goddess is wild and untamed, innocent, and free of all the pain and suffering in life. She is eternally independent and playful.

[Ceres]

She is KEPT a virgin in the mythology of christianity - doesnt that seem odd? There is no mother figure in the pantheon, just a perpetual virgin. It seems to me this shows how christianity views/ed women: there is no room for sexual experience, life experience.

Think of what young women are like. They can be powerful and passionate in their own way, but they dont possess the life experience wisdom of older women.

[Maggie]

Growing up catholic, my impression of Mary was submissive and gentle. She was definitely stripped of any real power; You could pray to her to intercede with God, but not to actually do anything herself. Queen of Heaven doesnt mean power so much as position, especially when its in the context of a patriarchal society. Joan of Arc seems an anomaly, doesnt she?

This differs from how I have seen various virgin goddesses treated in mythology. They are powerful.


Even though I was raised Lutheran :hahugh: obedience to God was stressed re Mary in that she accepted being told that she was to have this baby. Bend to the will of God and all that. Protestants as a rule don't assign any special role to Mary beyond that. In my experience the Catholic women I know seem to view her as the way women reach the ear of God, so to speak. It seems to me that Mary's role has grown in response to a need of the women in the church. In recent centuries Mary has also been the focus of visions--Our Lady of Guadalupe and Lourdes, for example.

IMO opinion Mary is actually the anomoly. She seems to have taken on some characteristics of a (visions, intercession) goddess but at the same time functions as a role model of obedience to God, not men in particular, within the context of church doctrine.

And once again, the female members of a pantheon don't necessarily say anything about the role of women in that society. Diana was a virgin huntress--and yet women in many Greek city states who worshipped her were highly oppressed.

How many examples of virgin goddesses are there? Is it even always specified? Bridget is often seen as the goddess of hearth and home, although at the same time she is the patron of blacksmiths. Is she considered a virgin? Or Kwan Yin? Both of them are often characterized in contemporary society as "gentle" also. What about Hesta?

Maggie

[Arion]

She is KEPT a virgin in the mythology of christianity - doesnt that seem odd? There is no mother figure in the pantheon, just a perpetual virgin. It seems to me this shows how christianity views/ed women: there is no room for sexual experience, life experience.

Think of what young women are like. They can be powerful and passionate in their own way, but they dont possess the life experience wisdom of older women.
That's very true. Christianity does come from a patriarchal culture, so its views on women aren't always that positive. I mean, the ideal woman is a gentle and nurturing mother who happens to be a virgin... kind of a contradiction. My history teacher last year (in Catholic school) was telling the class how the evidence that Jesus could have had a brother is threatening to the beliefs of many Catholics. Like somehow if Mary didn't remain a virgin until she died, it would somehow damage her standing in the Church. I think that's a bit silly. If she was a virgin when Christ was born, thats fine, immaculate conception and whatnot, but I don't see the point of why she had to stay virginal. I feel sorry for poor Joseph. Being married to the mother of God must have meant a very poor sex life.

[Maggie]

She is KEPT a virgin in the mythology of christianity - doesnt that seem odd? There is no mother figure in the pantheon, just a perpetual virgin. It seems to me this shows how christianity views/ed women: there is no room for sexual experience, life experience.

Think of what young women are like. They can be powerful and passionate in their own way, but they dont possess the life experience wisdom of older women.


Well, actually there isn't a "Christian pantheon", at least in the classic sense. And originally there wasn't any competition, so to speak. Not all early Christians viewed women/sex that way, it's mostly the fault of Paul, unfortunately "his" side won out. He's the one who stated that it was better to marry than to burn in hell. Hardly a ringing endorsement of either women or marriage.

Odd? Not really any odder than a society who kept their women stuck in the house while at the same time worshipping Diana. Looked at it that way could be said that at least Christianity was more honest about the whole thing.


Maggie

[Garm]

I don't think the 'cult' of Mary became popular until at least the Middle Ages. The earliest Christians were Jewish, hasn't there been some evidence of a Sophia found in some small Jewish houses of worship? Is she thought to be a virgin?


"....mundane interpretation of an esoteric symbol giving us an absurdity." Can you explain further?


Maggie

In gnostic scriptures Christ is thought of as having been brought forth by the interaction of primal spiritual beings before this material realm was created. Describing them, as those texts do, as virginal, makes sense within that context.

Somehow this carried over into the narrative of the human Mary giving us a woman who remains a virgin in spite of having a number of children.

Sophia is described in some sources as having a consort, there is an underlying eroticism about her very unlike Mary

[Maggie]

In gnostic scriptures Christ is thought of as having been brought forth by the interaction of primal spiritual beings before this material realm was created. Describing them, as those texts do, as virginal, makes sense within that context.

Somehow this carried over into the narrative of the human Mary giving us a woman who remains a virgin in spite of having a number of children.

Sophia is described in some sources as having a consort, there is an underlying eroticism about her very unlike Mary

This is one of those times that I wish I was better read in early Christian history.

Anyway...

I'm not sure that it follows *automatically* that the gnostic beliefs had much to do with the growing legends, beliefs about Mary. Originally it appears that her sexuality wasn't a matter of discussion, even the KJV still includes the sentences about Jesus' brothers. And the Pauline group disapproved of marriage and women which would more logically follow that the insistance of Mary's chastity would come from a repudiation of sex rather than gnostic beliefs about how Jesus was conceived. Do you know the comparative timelines of the beginnings of the Mary cult and the emergence of Gnosticism?

Yes, I had gotten that impression about Sophia also, which would place her among the more familiar type of goddesses.

Maggie

[_Banbha_]

I have been thinking about this a long time, but I would like some fresh input. Do you think the virgin is a powerful figure in mythology? Do you think catholocism made her weak by adopting that part of mythology in the form of Mary and then making her submissive? Is she submissive in your view? Joan of Arc seems a strangely powerful virgin figure and is part of catholic mythology and history. It seems confusing.....I think the virgin Mary is a powerful figure in myth; but to compare her other virgins in other or older cultures might be a little misleading. As Cassie and Gadaraal have mentioned not all virgins are "chaste" and are in fact sexual. Artemis has been mentioned; but think of the statue found at her sanctuary at Ephusis(sic) with it's mysterious egg or breast shaped symbols.

I think the whole hymen fetish that surrounds Mary is a bit extreme and detatched from reality. It's been metioned that her virginity was originally a sophisticated metaphor. I think there is something to that and the idea evolved into a crude morality lesson to female Christians. Mary was held up as an unachievable role model. It damaged the christian male psyche as well with the whole virgin or whore thing. Even attempting to just skirt around the twisted world of Catholic sexuality is daunting (I was raised Catholic too) and how Mary is interpreted is so much a part of that nuttiness.

That said, I think she is a powerful and beloved figure either despite of or because of said submissiveness. She is so much about compassion and yet remains above the fray. I found this link which describes Catholic meaning of virginity:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15458a.htm

[_Banbha_]

Slightly off topic: Here's a Link (http://www.mysticwicks.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2531225) that provides some insight into the development of sexual thought in the Catholic Church. Paul is first, but Augustine is so much fun to read.


"Early Christians," writes Ira Reiss, "read the story of Adam and Eve as symbolizing the importance of human freedom ... What others saw in the story of Adam and Eve as human freedom, Augustine saw as human bondage." (Reiss. 1990, pp. 193-194). Elaine Pagels of Princeton University who has specialized in that period of Church history would agree: "Adam's sin was not sexual indulgence but disobedience: thus ... the real theme of the story of Adam and Eve is moral freedom and moral responsibility...for nearly the first four hundred years of our era, Christians regarded freedom as the primary message of Genesis 1-3.11 (Pagels, 1988. pp. 23-25).

The real clue, we believe, lies in the fact that Augustine was not against marriage -- therefore logically, not opposed to a married clergy -- but he despised the concupiscence that accompanied all sexual activity. His problem, then, was not with marriage as a state-in-life but with concupiscence as a state of fallen humanity. He wished -For a return to "the good old days" of pre-Fall Eden when people could have all the sex they wanted devoid of concupiscence : "Without the seductive stimulus of passion , with calmness of mind and with no corrupting of the integrity of the body, the husband would lie on the bosom of his wife ... No wild heat of passion would arouse those parts of his body ... The semen would have been introduced into the womb of the wife with the integrity of the female organs being preserved, just as now with the same integrity being preserved, the menstrual -flow of blood can be emitted from the womb of a virgin ... Thus, not the eager desire of lust but the normal exercise of the will should join the male and female for breeding and conception." ("The City of God" 14.26). Since concupiscence was a consequence of the Fall, redemption resided in abstinence -- not in celibacy. As far as Augustine was concerned, man's penis was not under the full control of his will because of Adam and Eve, therefore, an erect penis symbolized man's defiance of God.

Not even the waters of baptism could remove that one remnant of the Fall -- concupiscence. Celibacy and virginity were merely spin-off issues to Augustine. The nexus was abstinence. Historian John Boswell believes that all of Augustine's sexual attitude can be reduced to one simple idea: erotic love is always sinful, within or outside marriage. Marriage is not the real issue, eroticism is. (Boswell, 1980, p.165). It appears to us, as stated earlier, that there were many sex negative voices, voices that did not coalesce until Augustine's sexual interpretation of Genesis acted as a tuning fork that centered a cacophony of disparate voices on a single note. Augustine successfully united the anti erotic, pro abstinence Church theologians into one mighty chorale thus setting the stage for the establishment of forced abstinence that would carry the name "celibacy." Morton and Barbara Kelsey, reflecting on the consequence of sex negativism in the Church Fathers, write: "When celibacy is practiced because sexuality is perceived as evil, it can become demonic and repressive." (Kelsey, 1986, p.177). Feminist author, Mary Daly, argues that the sex negative attitudes of the Christian Church were born of a need to protect the patriarchal system that dogmas such as The Virgin Birth, "stripped all women of the integrity, for the female was transformed into little more than a hollow eggshell, a void waiting to be made by the male" (Daly, 1978. p.83).

[Garm]

This is one of those times that I wish I was better read in early Christian history.

Anyway...

I'm not sure that it follows *automatically* that the gnostic beliefs had much to do with the growing legends, beliefs about Mary. Originally it appears that her sexuality wasn't a matter of discussion, even the KJV still includes the sentences about Jesus' brothers. And the Pauline group disapproved of marriage and women which would more logically follow that the insistance of Mary's chastity would come from a repudiation of sex rather than gnostic beliefs about how Jesus was conceived. Do you know the comparative timelines of the beginnings of the Mary cult and the emergence of Gnosticism?

Yes, I had gotten that impression about Sophia also, which would place her among the more familiar type of goddesses.

Maggie

The notion of Mary's virginty [or at least the virgin birth] shows up first in the Gospel of Mathew [dated to 80-90ce]. Mark [dated to the late 60's] makes no mention of it.

I am not factoring in the much later Marion cult.

Direct references to the gnostics in heresiology dates to about the year 200.

Some place the gnostics much earlier but that is controversial.

IMO It is as imposible to derive gnosticism as a "heresy" of orthodox Christianity as it is derive orthodox Christianity as a "heresy" of gnosticism. Both of them evolved from the teachings of the historical Jesus in directions so completely opposed it looks like they were defining themselves in deliberate contrast to each other.

In the Book of Revelations we have a hatchet job on a group of heretics called the Nicolations and the appearance of the whore of Babylon with the composite beast she rides upon. Gnostics, at least in some branches, venerated a figure they called Barbelon [if not the supreme being then something very near such, their cosmologies featured an eloborate chain of command] and portray the creator of the material realm as a composite beast.

There is more evidence for such interplay at the earliest stages of Christian development, but this should be enough to give the jist of it.
__________________

[Cassie]

Slightly off topic: Here's a Link (http://www.mysticwicks.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2531225) that provides some insight into the development of sexual thought in the Catholic Church. Paul is first, but Augustine is so much fun to read.
Unfortunately the link is still wrong--it takes you to the new reply page.
Anyhow thanks for reminding me of good 'ole Augustin! I studied him and the authors you quoted at uni. He was a very disturbed individual! It is no wonder that when he and his cronies assumed power in the early church, Christians with a more favourable attitude to sexuality were driven out of the mainstream church and often branded as hereitics.

It was really from this point on, that Mary's virginity was solidified and the idea came about that the only way a woman could be considered good or clean was if she remained a virgin.

[_Banbha_]

Unfortunately the link is still wrong--it takes you to the new reply page.
Anyhow thanks for reminding me of good 'ole Augustin! I studied him and the authors you quoted at uni. He was a very disturbed individual! It is no wonder that when he and his cronies assumed power in the early church, Christians with a more favourable attitude to sexuality were driven out of the mainstream church and often branded as hereitics.

It was really from this point on, that Mary's virginity was solidified and the idea came about that the only way a woman could be considered good or clean was if she remained a virgin.Yes, I believe that was the gist of the whole virginity thing too. :lol:

Here is another try at the link:
http://www.ejhs.org/volume2/walsh/walsh2.htm

edited to add: scroll down to Negativity Institutionalized.

[Cassie]

Yes, I believe that was the gist of the whole virginity thing too. :lol:

Here is another try at the link:
http://www.ejhs.org/volume2/walsh/walsh2.htm

edited to add: scroll down to Negativity Institutionalized.
Oh dear, it seems I am a lost soul! ;) The link works fine this time. :)

[Ceres]

Sophia is described in some sources as having a consort, there is an underlying eroticism about her very unlike Mary

Who is Sophia? Tell me more about her, I am am curious.:wave:

[Ceres]

Anyhow thanks for reminding me of good 'ole Augustin! I studied him and the authors you quoted at uni. He was a very disturbed individual! It is no wonder that when he and his cronies assumed power in the early church, Christians with a more favourable attitude to sexuality were driven out of the mainstream church and often branded as hereitics.

It was really from this point on, that Mary's virginity was solidified and the idea came about that the only way a woman could be considered good or clean was if she remained a virgin.

Was Augustin saying much the same things Paul did?

[Ceres]

Odd? Not really any odder than a society who kept their women stuck in the house while at the same time worshipping Diana. Looked at it that way could be said that at least Christianity was more honest about the whole thing.


Maggie

Perhaps when Diana was first worshipped their women werent so imprisoned?

[Amythyst]

This thread made for some very interesting reading.

All I have to say is, that as the product of Catholic Parochial School, I can tell you that the Roman Catholic Church has a very unhealthy view of sex in general and women in particular.

[Maggie]

Perhaps when Diana was first worshipped their women werent so imprisoned?


Not all Greek women ever were, the Spartans were just the opposite. My point was that it's not always possible to hypothosize from the pantheon to the society directly. Athena is a warrior and yet there were no women in the Greek armies.

Maggie

[Ceres]

Not all Greek women ever were, the Spartans were just the opposite. My point was that it's not always possible to hypothosize from the pantheon to the society directly. Athena is a warrior and yet there were no women in the Greek armies.

Maggie

Okay, thanks for clarifiying. :) Why do you think the greeks had a warrior goddess then? Or a virgin goddess who was shown as strong and free?

[Maggie]

Okay, thanks for clarifiying. :) Why do you think the greeks had a warrior goddess then? Or a virgin goddess who was shown as strong and free?

Okay, remember you asked! :hehehehe:

This is a subject I have been thinking about recently. I have been reading a book (a very LARGE book) on Primitive Textiles by Elizabeth Barber. In the course of the book the workings of cultures are discussed. Put this one with straight historical texts I've read in the past and I am now wondering at this point if there really ever was a neat division of ancient societies into matriarchal and patriarchal societies that we're so fond of in contemporary society.

She includes a quote about division of labor that has absolutely nothing to do with male and female in the sense that we mean these days, only which sex can be reliably depended upon to fill that role. That also does not preclude either sex from performing a job usually performed by another, only that the society cannot depend on that person to always perform that role. That means that women would do the jobs that could always be performed when pregnant, nursing, or raising babies. I noticed that ancient societies varied quite a bit and that factors other than sex discrimination played a role--when draft animals began to be used women were no longer in charge of the fields, for instance. It makes more sense to understand that draft animals and tiny children don't mix than to assume it happened because women were thought to be incapable of manageing draft animals. Assyrian women had their own businesses, Egyptian women could initiate a divorce, etc. The ancient records make it clear that female captives were valuable, not for sex or whatever, but because they could be set to spin. Their talent was valuable, their sex irrelevant but for the fact that textile arts and child raising are compatible. And none of this necessarily had anything at all to do with what kind of goddesses were worshipped in that society. I've always found the behaviour of the Greek and Roman pantheons rather eyepopping; any human who actually behaved as their gods and goddesses did usually got in a lot of trouble.

Athena seems to be an odd case. Barbar talks about her origins some, there was a HUGE festival in Athens yearly in her honor. It appears that Athena may have been a tribal goddess worshipped there already when the ancestors of the Greeks came into the area, and not originally a "Greek" goddess at all. Her importance comes from the protection of Athens. I don't see how her virginity was important to the people of the time, it's her wisdom and her protection that is mentioned over and over. My question these days is how did the common people of that time see this quality of virginity? What importance and meaning did they attach to it? How we view it now is not necessarily how they saw it.


I don't know enough history to comment on Artemis/Diana origins. I do know the story of the man who was changed into an animal and killed simply because the poor man saw her bathing, but was that because a mere mortal dared to intrude on a goddess, because a non-familial male saw her naked, or because a man saw an virgin naked?


I am also wondering now about just how widespread/common virgin goddesses were. I can't think of any celtic goddesses whose viriginity was an important characteristic, perhaps someone else knows of one? How many virgin goddesses (in the sense of non-sexual) are there actually? And do we see this characteristic differently in contemporary society than the ancient peoples did?

Maggie

[Cassie]

Was Augustin saying much the same things Paul did?
I can only give my opinion. They both had 'issues' but I think Augustin took things further and 'dogmatised' a certain view of sexuality in general and female sexuality in particular.

[Garm]

Who is Sophia? Tell me more about her, I am am curious.:wave:

'twas no shortage of googlables, the challenge was trying to find something that looked liked objective scholarship in the midst of all that femminist stuff

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:15861175&ctrlInfo=Round19%3AMode19b%3ADocG%3AResult&ao=

[Philosophia]

Who is Sophia? Tell me more about her, I am am curious.:wave:

Here is some links about Sophia:
http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/publications/kdamiani/kdsop112.pdf
http://northernway.org/sophia.html
http://www.sophiafoundation.org/about_us/who_is_sophia/
http://www.wiu.edu/users/mfjks/303sfa.html

[Ceres]

I am going to pick your brains a wee bit more here....do you think its more often true or not true in history that virgin meant unattached rather than not having had sex? Also, I once read a book that theorized that virginity in the sexual sense only became important in the past when different groups of people started to lean toward exclusive patriachal leadership because men wanted to know who their children were to pass on their property and power. What do you think?

[Maggie]

I am going to pick your brains a wee bit more here....do you think its more often true or not true in history that virgin meant unattached rather than not having had sex? Also, I once read a book that theorized that virginity in the sexual sense only became important in the past when different groups of people started to lean toward exclusive patriachal leadership because men wanted to know who their children were to pass on their property and power. What do you think?

I tend to think that virginity, in the sense that we talk about it now, was not as important in the past, particularly in the far past. Children were a necessity, and the religions that I know of did not put a premium on our version of virginity. Even when that aspect is ascribed to a diety, it doesn't seem to be the most important. Athena is generally described as a virgin goddess but the attributes of wisdom and protection are the more emphasized.

The second is bit more complicated. Sparta and the Picts, for instance, traced 'power' and money lines through the mother. MacBeth and Duncan (who were real, although not as in Shakespeare) based their claims to the kingship on their respective relationship to FEMALE relatives of the previous king. It would be more accurate to talk of patrilineal and matrilineal societies and both still exist today. In European history, which is the one I'm most familiar with, those with power and money were the ones who started insisting on virginity in their brides for that reason, while at the same time still enjoying themselves. Outside of the aristocratic circles it took a lot more time for such importance to be attached to female virginity. If there is no money, property, or prestige to be passed on, why worry about possible paternity? The more children, the more farm workers.

Maggie

[Ceres]

I guess its important to remember that the aristocracy, whom we read the most about in history, were actually the minority.

[Maggie]

I guess its important to remember that the aristocracy, whom we read the most about in history, were actually the minority.


LOL! Yep. That's why I tend to look at some past life claims with a certain amount of skepticsm, because an awful lot of people seem to have been aristocrats in past lives!

Maggie

[Ceres]

Sophia is described in some sources as having a consort, there is an underlying eroticism about her very unlike Mary

I know I have already pestered you about Sophia, but this point interests me a lot and the last article about Sophia you recommended was great, despite not mentioning this idea. QAny fursther reading for me? :boing:

[Garm]

I know I have already pestered you about Sophia, but this point interests me a lot and the last article about Sophia you recommended was great, despite not mentioning this idea. QAny fursther reading for me? :boing:

Although a bit new agey I found Caitlin Matthews "Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom" to be very comprhensive.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0835608018/104-9718640-7772726?v=glance&n=283155

I got curious about her from readings on gnosticism, she also shows up in my CD collection on 3 or or more albums.

I had been trying to acsses some of the gnostic Archetypes in the course of my meditations without satisfactory results.

But the time came when I felt an external presence trying to get my attention, I cued in on it.

I asked is this Sophia? and I was flooded this intense ecstatic feeling, sort of sweet but poignant, with a melodic like undercurrent that felt like a nostalgia for something not quite within reach of conscious memory but very impactive none the less.

There were visual impressions of a woman's face and hands which had a sort of an "art deco" [don't know if I'm using the term correctly] lithographic look about them, illustrations in black and white with red hilights, the eyelids were drawn down, the face partly covered by her hairstyle, the fingers were long and delicate.

All terribly subjective of course so I don't know how acurately I can vouch for it

This Burning Effigies song Communion With Sophia caught the sense of it very well, I'm sure their singer had writen it on the basis of a personal experience