Who owns the word witch?

[Sage Rainsong]

Hey everyone,

Once I again I have a question that derives from a conversation I had with friend. Okay so here it goes. My best friend (I'll call her D) has always practiced Hoodoo. Here mother is from Barbados and she learned it in order to protect herself when coming to America. Anyway we were speaking to a friend of mine who was raised in Wicca. She refered to D as a traditional witch. D became really angry because while she has nothing against witchcraft, she doesn't refer to any of her magical work as spells or witchcraft. She feels that thoes words belonged to the neopagan movement. D doesn't do spells, she works the spirits. My other friend couldn't understand why she was so angry. She presumed that since D knew what witchcraft was, and it wasn't bad, that she would jump at the trad witch compliment. So what are your thoughts? Do we have the right to call someone who is a practioner of a mystical tradtion a witch? If a santera or a curandero does a cleansing bath for someone, are they doing magic? Do you feel that the words witch and magic are becoming too vague? Please talk to me people.

[Mouse]

Interesting. :)

I think that the words Witchcraft and magick are becoming or have become interchangeable, and that's half the problem. Not all magick is witchcraft, but a lot of people think it is the same. This goes for the word "witch" too. To some people a witch is someone who practices magick, to others a witch is someone who practices witchcraft, but to another person these things are the same so it all becomes very hazy.

I understand why D was offended. For example, I like aboriginal people, I have nothing against them and have met a few who are very nice, but I'm not aboriginal. If someone came up to me and was complementing me on my aboriginal heritage I'd be angry, simply because I'm not aboriginal and to me at least, that fact is obvious.

[coeur]

The term witch varies from culture to culture. I agree with your friend that the term 'witch' is only positive in the sense of neopaganism. Everywhere else the term witch is often deragatory and connotes evil. For instance, if someone calls someone else a witch, it usually means he/she is calling someone malicious, etc, etc.

Let's also take the Azande of Africa for example. Their definition of witch is someone who practises magic either consciously or subconsciously to harm other people. To the Azande who believe very much in magic, witchcraft is a hereditary thing that exists as a physical trait (usually a blackish-looking thing near the intestines). Nonwitches cannot practise witchcraft. Witches are identified by an individual known as a Poison Oracle and can be either fined or killed (if their witchcraft produces death) for their acts. On the other hand, you have sorcerors who are sometimes called upon to repel witchcraft. Sorcerors can also be considered evil when they work evil magic, however, they do not bear the stigma that comes with the term 'witch.'

Obviously calling someone a witch in the Azande culture would not be a good thing. In fact, many Azande go to great lengths to deny 'witchcraft' in their families (either by disowning or otherwise).

In other words, you need to give thought to the person's culture when referring to them as a witch. If someone practises Voodou and does not want to be called a witch, then you must respect that wish. Not to mention the term 'witch,' even in the neopagan sense, brings forth a lot of connotations (magickal circles, God and Goddess, nature worship, etc) that might not be representative of someone else's beliefs.

I, for one, am not pleased when someone calls me a witch, because I don't identify with the neopagan culture of a witch. I identify myself as a magician, which signifies a whole different culture of magick and beliefs than that of a witch. I don't worship nature, I don't have altars to a God or Goddess, and the range of my studies and interests are different from those of many witches.

But yes I practise magick. Yes, witches practise magick. But there are different connotations that comes with different terms as well as different cultures, and people need to respect and recognize that.

[Sage Rainsong]

I own it, bitch

I don't see your name on it *sticks out tongue*

[semi]

I relate a little bit to D in the fact that I practice Voodoo with some Hoodoo and Ifa and shamanism. I don't consider what I do to be spells or magic. But most people apply familiar terms to things they don't know about in an effort to understand them, or at least to categorize them and have the illusion of understanding. For example, even on this board full of knowledgeable pagans, Voodoo has been referred to as a left-hand path, a dark art, necromancy, and so on, with many people inferring that it's all about curses and crap, though these things are false. I think most people would rather comment on something as though they had a clue---like calling D's practices "witchcraft"---than to express a complete absence of knowledge and ask to be informed. I think people tend to prefer a dominant superior stance on a subject rather than be in the more submissive role as someone who knows nothing about the subject in question.

[Arion]

My understanding was that 'witch' was a term that Christians gave to 'heathens' who practiced some kind of shamanic religion. Their interaction with the spirit world looked like something supernatural to Christians, hence it must be evil of course.

Today it seems that the word witch is given to any kind of sorcerer or magical practitioner. The stereotypes come out, like an old woman in her Victorian estate with her broomstick and her candles, chanting words in some forgotten language. Makes for good Halloween specials. However, some witches adopt the stereotypical image and the lines start to blur between fact and fiction. What a witch really means can vary a lot depending on a lot of factors. There really is no ultimate definition (to the best of my knowledge).

[jcldragon]

Words are words, and Realities are Realities. There are inherent limitations in the spoken & written languages that we use, but no limitations in what we can comprehend, and apply of the Metaphysical Principles that structure the Universe, (except those we impose upon ourselves).

By virtue of the fact that all living beings have Consciousness, we are all co-creating the Universe around us, not just on the Physical Plane, but upon all of the others as well. One doesn't even need to know what the Cosmic Laws of the Universe are, (or even that there are Metaphysical Laws), in order for this to be true. Our thoughts, beliefs, and feelings are exerting profound effects upon the manefestation of what is going on, on a constant basis, whether we know it or not.

Those who understand this, are doing it more or less consciously, and those who don't understand this, are doing it unconsciously. What we think & believe, shapes the world around us personally, but doesn't change the processes of the Cascade of Creation. So where a Wiccan would use a Spell, a Practitioner of Voodun would work with the Spirits, or a Christian would use a Prayer, the results are the same, and it doesn't matter what you call it.

[TaysatWesir]

I know santeria and voodoo practitioners who don't deem themselves as witches from what I get its a negative word.

[Shield_Wolf]

I think I'll put my 2 cents in. Though thes are just some Defanitions.

Witchcraft, in various historical, religious and mythical contexts, is the use of certain kinds of alleged supernatural or magical powers. A witch is a person (sometimes specifically female) who engages in witchcraft.

The term witchcraft (and witch) is a controversial one with a complicated history. Witchcraft is viewed differently in different cultures around the globe. Used with entirely different contexts, and within entirely different cultural references, it can take on distinct and often contradictory meanings. (from Wokipedia).

In modern times, the term "witch" covers both sexes, and what witches beleive in extermely varied. Witchcraft hes now been reborn as "Wicca" - a term derived from Old English word that simply meaning "worker of sorcery". (from The learned arts of Witches & Wizards).

The term witch comes from the Anglo-Saxon, Wicce, a word meaning "shaper" - from which we get our term "Witch". This word, in turn, comes from Middle High German Wicken, "to conjure". (from Grimoire for the Apprentice Wizard).

But it would seem that most people that call themself Witches are people that follow a Neo-Pagan path, and some other cultures don't like the term.
I myself prefure the trem Wizard.

[Rick]

Who owns the word witch?

I do. That'll be $79.95 for each time it's been used in this thread. I accept paypal, money orders and cash... http://bestsmileys.com/money/2.gif

[Sage WindMoon]

Witchcraft, in various historical, religious and mythical contexts, is the use of certain kinds of alleged supernatural or magical powers. A witch is a person (sometimes specifically female) who engages in witchcraft.


I wonder how the word witch got associated with women in the popular mind? I've had people say "you can't be a witch - you're a guy!"

But even during the "witch trials" period, although most of the accused were female, there were many males accused and convicted of witchcraft.

[Rudas Starblaze]

perhaps its just me, but when i hear someone say magic, or magick, or whatever i cant help but think of those cool illiusionists ya see on tv. totally fake and done with trick mirrors and wires, but still fun to watch. witchcraft to me is something totally real, raw, and uncut and no production crews behind the scenes.

as for you Rick! (the check is in the mail for the use of the copywrite! :lol: )

[Cain]

I own the word witch. Copyright and everything. Now, pagan authors, pay up! I didn't go around inventing words for your benefit.

[TaysatWesir]

Who owns the word witch?

I do. That'll be $79.95 for each time it's been used in this thread. I accept paypal, money orders and cash... http://bestsmileys.com/money/2.gif

I have your money right here Rick http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_5_6.gif

[Sage Rainsong]

bump

[plumedsnake]

Yeah that word witch has so many meanings and connotations quite hard to unravel. So does magic. There is magic as sleight of hand and then magic as in an art of producing real results.
First I reckon that certain words need to be defined at the start of a conversation. But even then people still stick to their definition of the words and will fight tooth and nail over it, even when it has nothing to do with the subject of the conversation. That's some tiresome thing to have to deal with.
Witch and magic are english words and so when they are used to describe a phenomenon from another culture there are bound to be discrepancies. However . . .

There are certain common traits that can be noticed in different practices from around the world that are labeled witchcraft.
1) It is associated mainly with women. Men can be witches too but it is something that comes more easily to women and it is consdered to be a female energy.

2) Certain universal psychic abilities are associated with witchcraft. Most notably the ability for the consciousness to leave the body and travel flying through the night.

3) It is associated with the night time. And with the moon.

4) it confers prophetic abilities and the power to see the future.

5) They have power over childbirth and binding other women so that they can't give birth. etc.

6) Cats are involved somehow or the other with the cult

I've got to go . I'll continue later

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I think that everyone owns it if they want to use it and can define what it means for them within generally acceptable limits. :lol:

However, I think that even though the use of the word witch has become empowering for many members of the neopagan movement, it still has negative connotations for a majority of people and communities.

Does that mean that people don't have magical practices? No, but they don't refer to it as witchcraft which, like a previous person posted, is something bad. They might call it working with the spirits, or faith healing, or medicine, etc... I think that the best thing to do when someone describes the traditions that they follow, is ask them what they like to be called if you really feel that a label is necessary. ;)

The problem with labels is that they mean something different to everyone. :lol:

[Maverynthia]

I think it's something like guild in video games, you don't call a goldsmither a woodsmither... just like you don't call a fisher a hunter... means different things...:nod:

[Agaliha]

Here are some sites that talk about this topic:

http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/witch-defined.htm
http://www.thecrookedheath.com/elder/witchargue.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_dict.htm
The Rights To The Word Witch (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geusyOqnBERlMAjsRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4Y3JpdDhmBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMTYEc2VjA3NyBHZ0aWQDRjc0M 18xNTM-/SIG=12gcakph8/EXP=1148320782/**http%3a//www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/righttowitch.html)
Reclaiming: Witchcraft FAQ (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geusy4qnBEj08AbABXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4ZXQzbTQ3BGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMjUEc2VjA3NyBHZ0aWQDRjc0M 18xNTM-/SIG=12505a5eb/EXP=1148320824/**http%3a//www.reclaiming.org/about/witchfaq/faq.html) --it's somewhere in there
the derivation of the word witch (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geup__qnBEfS0AEmNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3ZTBtaXAxBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGNzQzX zE1Mw--/SIG=126cnl5r4/EXP=1148320895/**http%3a//www.ladyoftheearth.com/witch/word-witch.txt)

[Sage Rainsong]

Here are some sites that talk about this topic:

http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/witch-defined.htm
http://www.thecrookedheath.com/elder/witchargue.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_dict.htm
The Rights To The Word Witch
Reclaiming: Witchcraft FAQ --it's somewhere in there
the derivation of the word witch

ooooohhh thanks!

[Agaliha]

ooooohhh thanks!

You're welcome. :hahugh:

[CalisticSunrise]

Yes, I call myself Witch, but i don't expect everyone who does magick is a witch. My rule is don't put a label on anyone until they put it on themsevles first. this works outside of the magical comunity too. if fact I think it has made every situation easier.

[Sage Rainsong]

My rule is don't put a label on anyone until they put it on themsevles first. this works outside of the magical comunity too. if fact I think it has made every situation easier.

ditto

[Romani Vixen]

I am one of the ones that feel that a witch is someone who practices magic working deliberately and regularly (perfecting their art as it were).

But...

There are still some cultures, and every culture historically, that feel that the word witch is someone who fraternizes with demons (and the like). Perhaps this is part of it...

If you look at my mother... she is a full on hedge witch!!! She practices herbalism, ancestor reverence (big on geneaology), everything. But dare you call my very conservative christian mother a witch? HELL NO!

People are people. Labels can be useful, but you can still live without them. If someone wants to be called something, then so be it. If not.. so be it.

[Athena-Nadine]

Mirriam Webster owns the word witch. ;)

[Sage Rainsong]

bump

[cheddarsox]

The lady who lived across the street from me when I was growing up, she not only owned and personified the term, she had filed for trademark, but died from her own meaness before the paper work got cleared.

Whew! Now the term is up for grabs and with much better uses, still, let us observe a moment of silence for Anna Manchinski, whose husband dropped dead on the way home from the corner store, he couldn't bear to come home, not one more time. May the yucky conotations of the word witch die with her!

Still, sorry folks, I can't quite get past the usage of the term witch that I grew up with. I don't know how many generations it will take to cleanse this term in my culture.

and when I meet someone and they call themselves a witch...I hate to tell you, but they usually just add another negative spin to the word. Way too many flaky,"let's shock people" types have hijacked the word (now that Mrs Manchinski isn't around to sig her dogs on them). And now witch means a big loud woman with too much eyeliner and flowy dresses who sounds crazier than an evangelical with a stack of Bibles, and says Goddess about six times more often than the evangelical says Jesus.

I don't know if I have a prejudice against witches, but I have a hard time liking most of the folks who have introduced themselves to me as such. Most you can tell are coming about 1/4 mile away from the scent of incense, the purple and black clothes and the goddess bumper stickers, t shirts, necklaces, bracelets, tatoos, dashboard statues, and cackle...I kid you not, in my part, seems you can't call yourself a witch until you have worked on perfecting a really loud annoying cackle that you use at the least provocation, or better yet, no provocation at all.

I know many fine Wiccans and practicers of the craft, and I hope they can wrest their title back from the walking/cackling billboards of feminist paganism who think that the person who dies with the most crap from the esoteric book store wins.

rant over,

sorry, I'll bet this post offended just about everyone. This one really touched a nerve.

cheddar

[Sage Rainsong]

sorry, I'll bet this post offended just about everyone. This one really touched a nerve.

why is that?

[cheddarsox]

why is that?


cause I am unhappy with my reaction to the word witch, and wish I could get past it...so I try to blame certain people for my inability to see past nonsense and let the word be something better.

I don't want to be a bigot, but I feel like I am a bigot toward those that come up to me and say... "Hi, I'm JaguarSilverBellRainStar and I'm a witch, Let me tell you all about the goddess..."

I'm as uncomfortable with them as I am with the guy handing out Christian tracts on the corner. I want to make both of them just SHUT UP. I find it very hard to be respectful when someone else decides to play vocal poster child for their faith, and makes me the guinea pig. I just don't want to go there. I find it hard to pretend I care or respect, or want to spend the evening learning/hearing about something that I don't.

I haven't learned how to say, "How nice for you, now please shut up", in a way that doesn't come off as bigotted.

Sometimes I feel like this...when someone is all going on and on about what they believe (in person, like at a party, not on a board like this when this is what we've come to do) I feel like someone has a new baby, and I think that is nice for them, but I don't really care to hold other people's baby, and then they say..."wouldn't you like to hold it?" and how does one gracefully say..."No, not really, thanks anyway." If I say that, everyone looks at me like there is something wrong with me, because EVERY normal person wants to hold the baby...

And at the end of the night, I just want to escape because I am so wiped out and pissed about all the babies I had to hold, and all the religious clap trap I listened to as nauseum, and I wish I knew how to politely say. "no thanks", but I don't, so I get pissed at the silly witches...when I am really pissed at myself.

cheddar

[Amelserru_halqu]

alrighty... the word witch used to belong to the wicked witch of the east, who willed to her sister, due to the www's untimely death due to a rare water allergy her apprentice Dorothy was given custody of the word. Upon returning to Kansas she was arrested for using LSD and upon torture by the police officers she gave the word over to Jesus Christ who gave it to his gay lover Judas, who upon hanging himself gave it to the jews who gave to the earth in his blood who keeps it for herself and anyone powerful enough to take it from her.

Which is a really long winded way of saying only those that are adept, practically by the way, in witchcraft. (By the way I would never dream of declaring myself a witch and dishonor the worth of the word farther than the media and certain groups have done already, I'm nowhere near powerful enough)

[Sage Rainsong]

bump

[Baye]

Baye

[Grimr]

Witchcraft and Shamanism is completely universal on earth in cultures around the world.

I don't see how anyone can own it.