Hellenic Reconstructionists and magic

[David19]

Does anyone know if magic can be a part of Hellenic Reconstructionism, i've read several different things, some say magic was 'illegal' but i've seen a lot of sites and books (i haven't read them but i'd like to) on the magic of ancient Greece (like there's a book called Roman and Greek necromancy by Daniel (i can't remember his last name). I've heard that Dionysis was associated with alterted states (and some say shamanism, but i don't think it was, as shamanism is a siberian word and a siberian context, although Aztec shamans do similar things) and then you have the Delphic Oracle and Apollo.

While, currently, i'm not a Hellenic Reconstructionist, it is something i'm very interested in and i'd like to know a bit more about how things were viewed by them and the gods.

Anyway, thanks for any help :).

[Agaliha]

I don't really know about this, but here are some sites and resources that might help:

Amazon.com: Magika Hiera : Ancient Greek Magic and Religion : Books: Christopher A. Faraone,Dirk Obbink (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqIUNpdEbmgBRFlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2MWFla2V2BGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlg1X zMw/SIG=12nrf3e7j/EXP=1150846868/**http%3a//www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195111400%3fv=glance)

Georg Luck, Arcana Mundi: Magic and the Occult in the Greek and Roman Worlds (http://www.ecauldron.com/cncbook.php?asin=0801825482) (Baltimore/London: Johns Hopkins UP, 1985). A collection of essays and primary sources on magick in the ancient world.

Sannion's Sanctuary - Magic in Hellenismos (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqarNpdEgHMBB6pXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2ZGhvZmh2BGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlg1X zMw/SIG=12dhtbnuv/EXP=1150847019/**http%3a//www.winterscapes.com/sannion/magic_hellenismos.htm)

Hellenismos FAQ (The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum) (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqarNpdEgHMBDKpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2MWFla2V2BGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlg1X zMw/SIG=11nth0j0k/EXP=1150847019/**http%3a//www.ecauldron.com/dc-faq.php)



Is magic(k) part of Hellenismos?
It might be more accurate to say that magic was, and is, a part of Hellenic culture, but not part of mainstream religious worship. We have considerable evidence of ancient Hellenic magical practices, many of them highly syncretistic and a fascinating subject in their own right. In addition, during the Roman Empire, several philosophical schools, particularly the Neoplatonic school of the Syrian Iamblichus, developed an elaborate system of ritual designed to elevate the individual human soul to its divine origins. These practices, known as theurgy, were distinct in intent, if not in method, from "low magic" or thaumaturgy.
Literary sources suggest that common sorcery was viewed with suspicion by the average Greek, as it was in so many cultures—even though people did not hesitate to use it when faced with a recalcitrant lover or a nasty lawsuit! Theurgy, on the other hand, was the province of a tiny philosophical elite, never achieving any sort of general practice or acceptance.
Today some Hellenic pagans do work magic, but this forms a part of their private spiritual practice, not public ritual. Many Hellenists do no magic at all, believing it to be hubristic or simply unnecessary, while others do not believe in the efficacy of operant magic in the first place.


Wikipedia: Hellenic polytheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%C3%AAnismos)


...Specific practices that some Reconstructionists find offensive include the use of magic, historically inaccurate portrayals of the Greek gods in Neopagan literature, and generalizations about Neopaganism that assume the term applies only to those who practice Wicca or Wicca-inspired religions.


Mysticism in Hellenismos (http://kyrene.4t.com/mysticism.html)

That's all I found.
I'm pretty sure magic was part of ancient Greece and the religion...I just don't know exactly in what form and who was allowed to practice. Those sites above seem to say it's not part of Greek Recon.
Maybe someone of this path can better answer :)

[Arion]

I'm not a Hellenic Reconstructionist either, but Greek religion is something I'm interested in as well. I don't think magic was a central religious practice like it is to modern Witchcraft religions, but people did do it. There was the infamous goddess Hekate, Goddess of Witchcraft, and myths of witches like Medea who invoked her during her sorcery. Hekate was kind of an outcast Goddess though, not one of the big twelve Olympians, her worshippers were definitely not part of the mainstream. So yes, magic was done in ancient Greece, but it depends which God or Goddess you are working with, since it isn't a central part of worship for every God/dess. Thats my two cents.

[David19]

Thanks you both helped :).

[Tim]

Does anyone know if magic can be a part of Hellenic Reconstructionism, i've read several different things, some say magic was 'illegal' but i've seen a lot of sites and books (i haven't read them but i'd like to) on the magic of ancient Greece (like there's a book called Roman and Greek necromancy by Daniel (i can't remember his last name). I've heard that Dionysis was associated with alterted states (and some say shamanism, but i don't think it was, as shamanism is a siberian word and a siberian context, although Aztec shamans do similar things) and then you have the Delphic Oracle and Apollo.

While, currently, i'm not a Hellenic Reconstructionist, it is something i'm very interested in and i'd like to know a bit more about how things were viewed by them and the gods.

Anyway, thanks for any help :).
Well... it depends on how you're defining magic... divination was of course practiced... if we are talking about the "public" religion then no, magic was not apart of it... but there was of course folk magic that was practiced within the culture... the Mystery Cults included mystical practices... but over all, most recons I know would say that magic exists outside the religion.

[eihdos]

Hekate was kind of an outcast Goddess though, not one of the big twelve Olympians, her worshippers were definitely not part of the mainstream. So yes, magic was done in ancient Greece, but it depends which God or Goddess you are working with, since it isn't a central part of worship for every God/dess.

Not being one of the Olympians doesn't make a deity an outcast, and whether people practiced magic didn't have much to do with which deities they honored (which in turn would depend more on where and when you lived, and less on personal preference. While an ancient Greek might feel a special affinity for one or several of the Theoi, he wouldn't pick out just one or a few to worship.)

[David19]

Well... it depends on how you're defining magic... divination was of course practiced... if we are talking about the "public" religion then no, magic was not apart of it... but there was of course folk magic that was practiced within the culture... the Mystery Cults included mystical practices... but over all, most recons I know would say that magic exists outside the religion.

Thanks (and also to the others who replied :)), so if i'm understanding right, magic was more something, if done, that was private, not part of the religion (something i have no problem with), i know that there have been found several Greek Curse tablets (i think) and, i think i've heard them (or something else) called Greek Voodoo dolls (it was something like that, i haven't got the quote in front of me right now).

Also, was Theurgy part of Hellenic practice (or magical practice), from what i've got, i've heard it was basically asking for divine aid (i think that might be right, feel free to correct me :)), but i'm not too sure what it's about (like is it basically praying to a deity for a result (e.g. to be streotypical, praying to Aphrodite for love in order to meet someone, etc).

Thanks again :).

[Theres]

... i know that there have been found several Greek Curse tablets (i think) and, i think i've heard them (or something else) called Greek Voodoo dolls (it was something like that, i haven't got the quote in front of me right now).
well, not exactly.
curse tablets were pleas to the gods (usually Hermes, occasionally Hekate) which were buried at the crossroads, thrown down a well, etc, in order to reach the appropriate deity. so in this way they were more theurgical than magical.
they were usually written on lead sheets, then rolled up and pierced with a nail. maybe this is where the comparison comes from.

[David19]

well, not exactly.
curse tablets were pleas to the gods (usually Hermes, occasionally Hekate) which were buried at the crossroads, thrown down a well, etc, in order to reach the appropriate deity. so in this way they were more theurgical than magical.
they were usually written on lead sheets, then rolled up and pierced with a nail. maybe this is where the comparison comes from.

Thanks for that :).

So, was Theurgy prayers and pleas to gods (like, going back to my stereotypical example, if you wanted love, would you make a prayer or plea to Aphrodite, or if Eros (i'm not sure if he's a god of love and/or lust?), etc).

[Theres]

correct.
theurgy is the petitioning of a god to do something particular, or perform a miracle, etc, for which sacrifice would be made.

however i have to agree with whoever said that this may have been the religious practice of the average Greek, but that did not necessarily exclude the practice of folk magic in other areas.

[Tim]

Eros (i'm not sure if he's a god of love and/or lust?), etc).

There are two...

Elder Eros is the Protogenos (Primordial deity) of sexual desire who emerged at the very creation of the universe.... He is the driving force behind procreation in nature.

Younger Eros is a God of love... depicted as a child (variously as an infant, a boy, or a young teenager) armed with either bow and arrows or a flaming torch... and a son of the goddess Aphrodite.

[Aidron]

I just wanted to add a few things, and in doing so, keep in mind that I am not a Hellenic Reconstrunctionist. I looked into it deeply, and I do share many correlations with them, but I would not think it appropriate to refer to myself as one.

A lot of famed individuals from ancient Greece were said to practice some form of sorcery, magic, or witchcraft. Philosophers were often accused of or self-proclaiming such.

In many instances though, magic, withcraft, and sorcery tended to be looked down upon in the culture of the ancient Greeks. From what my own research has revealed, I would say the degree of its taboo was no different than todays on a worldwide scale roughly.

In general, magic, witchcraft, and sorcery seemed to be percieved as corrupt or lesser in that the gods are where all true blessings and good things eminate from, and that in many instances to work around them was blasphemous. A lot of the times, sorcery, magic, and witchcraft were linked with the realm of the Underworld and in working with spirits thereof; particularly the dead.

On the other hand, I think it's relevant to consider that thaumaturgy and theurgy are not so different. While they are indeed, officially, different in definition, thaumaturigical means can be thought of as achieving theurigcal ones, and vise versa. You can use candle magic, which will often be percieved as low, folk, or thaumaturigcal magic to achieve enlightenment, which is a theurgical goal. How the magic is practiced or what style it emanates from is not necessarily directly going to lump it into the same style, in other words.

With that said, I don't think it's inappropriate for Hellenic Reconstrunctionists to practice magic, but I would be surprised by those who practice it a great deal instead of relying upon prayer, communion with the gods, and making offerings to the gods as opposed to say working with poppets and candle magic. So, it's not inappropriate, just probably uncommon, and while it may seem a little unusual in accordance with history and beliefs of Hellenic Reconstrunctionists, I think it can be such a gray area that those who are truly talented and wise can blend it so perfectly that you would never question the legitimate nature of their practices.

[Aidron]

however i have to agree with whoever said that this may have been the religious practice of the average Greek, but that did not necessarily exclude the practice of folk magic in other areas.

Just incase my own post did not present this view point as clearly, I am going to state that I completely agree with this.

No matter where in the world you look or when in history, regardless of the prevailing spiritual and religious beliefs, folk magic has likely been a part of our lives for as long as anyone can remember. People enjoy coming up with their own solutions, and people will always seek out simple solutions in life (and why shouldn't they?).

I'd certainly rather come up with my solutions on my own and work toward them with my magic rather than bother the gods. Ask not for what you can obtain yourself, so to speak.

[eihdos]

So, was Theurgy prayers and pleas to gods (like, going back to my stereotypical example, if you wanted love, would you make a prayer or plea to Aphrodite, or if Eros (i'm not sure if he's a god of love and/or lust?), etc).

I'd call that magic, plain and simple. Theurgy is becoming closer to the Gods through purification and rituals - some of which may be magical in nature.

[David19]

I'd call that magic, plain and simple. Theurgy is becoming closer to the Gods through purification and rituals - some of which may be magical in nature.

Thanks, so how do you become closer to the gods, is it a bit like the goal of some Ceremonial magicians, who want to join with Yahweh, except Hellenic ones might join with the gods (or something else, that i'm missing here).

[eihdos]

Thanks, so how do you become closer to the gods, is it a bit like the goal of some Ceremonial magicians, who want to join with Yahweh, except Hellenic ones might join with the gods (or something else, that i'm missing here).

Would a horribly simplified and probably somewhat incorrect explanation do?

The theurgists believed that everything came from one single point. From this single point sprang ideas and conciousness and the soul and everything else. Far from the original single point is the imperfect material world that we live in. The aim of theurgy is to reunite with the One. (The Gods are somewhere between us and the original source in this hierarchy.) The methods used were prayer, sacrifice, and rituals.

Since I know that you're interested in Hekate, may I recommend "Hekate Soteira" by Sarah Iles Johnston? It's a bit of a heavy read, but it deals with Hekate's role in the Chaldean Oracles and would give you some idea of what theurgy is all about. :)

[Hellenic_Witch]

Does anyone know if magic can be a part of Hellenic Reconstructionism

Perhaps it depends on how you define the word "magic".

But then, I can only speak for myself. I used to practice magic and at the time, it added a great deal to my life. I did not conciously stop, but the more I studied and read about Hellenismos, the more I realized that the practice and interest of magic had gradually phased out of my life so naturally that I didn't even notice.

In fact the word "witch" in my user name "Hellenic Witch" bothers me now that I don't consider myself a witch anymore, but a Hellenic Reconstructionist. *shrugs* but I don't see the point in changing it. It's just a handle, after all.

I'm not against magic, I just don't need it anymore. If I knew a Hellenic Reconstructionist that practiced magic, I wouldn't think it odd, I would probably assume that is was something practiced on the side, separate from Hellenismos.

If anything can be separate from Hellenismos, that is. :)