Witches in Bible

[Merilwen]

I am not sure if this question has already been asked here, I browsed but didn't find the answer in any previous posts (it is possible I missed it, I can't even seem to find my car keys on a daily basis 8O)
With that disclaimer in mind...

I was curious how witchcraft in Christianity is resolved. When I was a baptist I was always taught that the bible says that witches are evil, devil-worshipping people. Is this a belief held in all christian religions? If so, how do you follow Christianity as a practicing witch? Would this not be a conflict of interest?

Sorrow about all the questions, but I am really curious. If you know of a website that explains it, I would love to have the link.

[David19]

I'm not actually Christian, so i'm sure there are a lot of others here who can help, but i don't think that there would be a 'conflict of interest' because there are witches in the bible (Witch of Endor is probably the most famous one, but i haven't read the bible so there are probably others who are more knowledgabl), while people may have had a 'fear' of them or even 'mistrusted' them, the fact is that there were obvously still witches in ancient Palestine/Israel and people still knew how to get in touch with them, really witches and magic were treated the same in every country and culture, in Ancient Greece, i think witches were 'feared' or thought of as 'evil' and the same in Rome, i think, although people would say that then go get a love spell or something (although i think in Rome, there was a distinction between 'day' magic, which was seen as good, and 'night' magic which was thought of as 'evil' because 'evil' supernatural beings wandered the night, i think) plus in Norse societies and Anglo-Saxon England, i think witches were also 'mistrusted' there too, i think they were seen as 'outcasts' or something similar, interestingly, while many Wiccan's and others see Wicca as meaning 'wise', i think it meant a male magic user (and maybe 'evil'?), so witches seem to have had a 'bad' reputation in every country and culture even before Christianity, so i don't think Yahweh is neccessarily against magic and witches, probably just the people and cultures of the time.

Although others probably know better.

[Cat]

I am not biblical scholar, but I think part of the problem lies in the translations.

IIRC, the 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' bit actually used the word for poisener.

Given that what can cure can kill, it may be a true-to-the-meaning translation. But then again maybe not. Certainly I'd agree that people who go around committing murder need to be caught and punished.

Anyone with some actual knowledge out there?

My additional guess is this: I have heard some Christians state that the New Testament supplants the Old. So they are free to ignore the witch bits if they wanna. I don't recall anything about witches in the NT.

Finally, and my apologies if this offends anyone, I think that in religions where there are a lot of rules, its very hard or even impossible to follow them all. So you pick and choose.

I used to work with battered women, and I cannot count the number of women who told me they could not leave or divorce their spouses because it was against their religion (which happened to be Christianity). Yet these same women used birth control, and had pre- and extra- marital sex with no twinges of conscience.

[CleftOfLight]

I am actualy going to be written a paper on that very subject,so when I am done I will post it.Hopfuly it will help.

[Cindlady2]

cool... like to see it!
Yep... to many people ... translating too many times... that's my thought

[BlackMagicalCat]

Well,after thinking about this very thing for a while,,the two do not go together.No more than you can be a christian-satanist,,,or a conservative liberal,,,or a Budha-Baptist.Or a fat-skinny person,,,,Or a giant-midget.

The bible condemns witchcraft in 3rd grade english.It also condemns all sorts of sorcery,divination,and any and everything that is conected to the occult.
In order to put the two together,,you first need to throw away the bible,and make your own,,or you can pretend all the parts that talk about burning witches arent there,,and you can ignore them.

The same way many denominations ignore the parts of the bible that doesnt fit thier doctrine.The bible is clear that God alone is to be worshiped,and that Jesus is the only way to God.Jesus said,NO man comes unto the father,but by me.In the book of Acts you can see that after the apostles preached the gospel,the whole town repented,and burned all their craft books,and everything craft related,and they added up the cost to see how much was actually burned.Acts 19:19,it turned out to be 6,400,000(boy would I love to have some of those books today)

So trying to be a baptist,or a pentecostal,or a charasmatic,or any other christian denomination that uses the bible as its guide,is going to be rather hard if you walk a pagan walk,and worship the earth,which the bible says,Is Gods footstool.Pagans say,its the mother Goddess.

The bible is clear about the sin of man,that is the whole purpose of Christ dieing on the cross,to save us from hell,and to make an atonment for our sins.
But 99 percent of pagans dont believe in sin,nor do they feel a need to be saved,,nor do they believe in the devil,,which the bible clearly teaches that he does exist.Nor do they believe in hell.

Good luck trying to find a pagan who will admit that thier is a devil.
The only God jesus prayed to,was God,the God of Israel.He never prayed to any other,nor acknowledged any other as his father.He never mentioned the Goddess.

So,the one thing that stands in the way of a person being a christian witch,is the scriptures.So you can ignore them,and still call yourself a christian witch,and perhaps write your own bible one day,like every other denomination has done.But as it stands today,a person who walks the path of the craft,and trys to be a christian too,will find conflicts popping up all the time,and they will at some point have to choose,,,am I a witch,or a christian?

Can you imagine putting money in a coke machine,and a pepsi-coke comes out?So in my humble opinion,many who call themselves christian witches,want to be a witch,but they dont want to let go of Christ,for fear of the eternal damnnation they believe they will recieve.So,they hold on to some of the bible,but are walking a pagan path.

After a while,you will be a pagan,and will not resemble anything that remotely looks christian,,and the church world will condemn you to a devils hell,and you will be called an evil satanic witch,,and get pissed off at the christians.

You will be pulled into two different directions,will have to ignore one side,or the other,but sooner or later you will come to a fork in the road,and you will have to choose,,this way,or that way.But you will not be able to choose them both.

You can be pagan,and a witch,,and carry the title of a christian,but you wont be walking the christian path,nor living like one,you will be a christian in name only.

To follow Christ,is to let him be LORD of your life,your thoughts,your actions,and your will.You must forsake all to follow him,and you must die to yourself.

I called myself a christian witch once,but as the days went by,I realized I was fooling myself,I was dishonoring those who truly were witches,and clearly was not following the teachings of the scriptures.So I stopped calling myself a christian witch.I believe in God,but I can not say I am following the scriptures,I clearly am not.I am becoming more and more pagan as the days go by.Im pissed off at christians,and the churches,because of the way they have treated me.They told me God hated me,they cursed me,called me a devil,they told me I dont belong in thier church,and a few other things they have done,,so ,,,Im not getting along with them to well,,they keep calling me a witch.

I still pray to God,because I love him,,but Im not happy with his followers.
I want to plague them all,or at least most of them.I pray to the Goddess,because she was kind enough to break through to me,and bless me after so many years.So I love her.

Finaly,you can go to any christian forums ,and ask them,can I be a witch and a christian at the same time,,but make sure you are prepared for a flood of hate,and ridicule,because it will more than likely be the result.

And finally,,,,,the God of the witches,,,the Father of the Craft,,,the Father of all witchcraft,the Horned One,Bucca,The Golden Goat,The All Father,Lucifer,The Lord of the Dance,and what ever other name you wish to call him,,,he is not the christian God,they are not the same.

This is what I think.

[Infinite Grey]

Just a few bits where the bible condemns witch craft in the NT



19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions




19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas






8But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."

Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.





16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.



and the light of a lamp shall shine in thee no more; and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall be heard in thee no more; for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, and all nations were deceived by thy sorcery.

[Ninjakitten]

The Bible has been retranslated many times over the centuries to where there are a lot of things that don't hold anywhere near the same meaning as things today. That's something better researched on your own than having me recite it to you. It's pretty easy information to find reliable sources for.

If you think about it, what kind of stuff did the ancient Hebrews do in the Old Testament as forms of worship and sacrifice? Aside from the sacrificing of lambs I mean? They did things like sacrificing a certain number of doves, certain recipes of incense, and did all sorts of ritual stuff that sounds awfully "witchy" by our standards. Many of those practices were still around at Jesus' time.

Also, many of us Christian witches don't tend to trust everything the "Apostle" Paul had to say. He never even met Jesus, and even made a hobby of persecuting Christians (originally), then suddenly has a vision of Jesus and thinks he knows all about him? He even had arguments with the real Apostles over things, if you take at least parts of the Bible as having some sort of recorded history. He was a Pharasee who couldn't shed his Pharasee robes when he turned Christian, but there were a lot of things spirit inspired and Christian he had to say, like when he spoke of the spiritual gifts for example. To me, some of those sound like Christian versions of witchcraft, and I actually have several of them, some I had before I was even Christian and then explained finally when I became a Christian, others since I've been Christian (the Tongues thing never really happened before then, and it freaked me out when it did because I had no clue about the Tongues gift yet).

Many people believe that much of what Jesus did was actually witchcraft, and not Divine. I personally think it was a combination of both. I believe he was a man with Divine Authority given to him by Godde (God YHWH and Goddess Sophia in one), not God literally. He healed in ways that if he only used Divine healing, he had no purpose in doing, like healing a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making a paste to cover the man's eyes with, and told him to wash the mud off at a sacred river (I think it was the Euphrates, but I can't remember), and the blind man was reported to see.

There's an interesting paper called something like "Jesus was a Witch", "10 Reasons Jesus was a Witch", or something like that (I think I usually find it if I Google "Jesus" and "Witch" at the same time). Parts of it I think were a stretch (after all, you can make the Bible say anything you want if you don't research translations far enough back), but some made some sense. Check it out!

There's much more evidence that what we consider witchcraft today is 1) nothing like the so called "witchcraft" of the times the word was used when it was originally put in the Bible as such, and 2) that they can go together quite well, though you need to take the Bible as neither literally nor witchcraft as being one strict method. Then again, the exact same thing can be said about me as a scientist, too. There's more said about the evils of what science does (and even science specifically) than about what we know today as witchcraft.

[Merilwen]

"Well,after thinking about this very thing for a while,,the two do not go together.No more than you can be a christian-satanist,,,or a conservative liberal,,,or a Budha-Baptist.Or a fat-skinny person,,,,Or a giant-midget."

But witchcraft isn't a religion, it's a practice...


Thanks everyone who responded!

[David19]

And finally,,,,,the God of the witches,,,the Father of the Craft,,,the Father of all witchcraft,the Horned One,Bucca,The Golden Goat,The All Father,Lucifer,The Lord of the Dance,and what ever other name you wish to call him,,,he is not the christian God,they are not the same.

This is what I think.

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be saying that there's only one god of witches, or 'one, ultimate horned' god, when there never was (only people who try and say all gods are one god), and Lucifer wasn't horned, i don't think, he's a Roman god, according to Aradia, he's Diana's brother (although some people, that i do trust, have said the person who gave Leland the original Aradia may have been a conartist).

Plus, you seem to be saying all witches have to be 'pagan', when that's not true, there's a lot of African witches (yeah, people will say witch was a 'European' word and African's shouldn't use it, but that, IMO, just sounds racist, plus African's have suffered at the hands of European's for centuries, so they deserve to it, if they want it). A witch is someone with mystical powers, having a religion doesn't make you a witch or give you mystical powers (to quote the www.whywiccanssuck.com author), just like Christian's can't turn water into wine just 'cause they're Christian, and not all witches are 'earth based' either or even worship a goddess, some are atheist or agnostic.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be saying that there's only one god of witches, or 'one, ultimate horned' god, when there never was (only people who try and say all gods are one god), and Lucifer wasn't horned, i don't think, he's a Roman god, according to Aradia, he's Diana's brother (although some people, that i do trust, have said the person who gave Leland the original Aradia may have been a conartist).

Plus, you seem to be saying all witches have to be 'pagan', when that's not true, there's a lot of African witches (yeah, people will say witch was a 'European' word and African's shouldn't use it, but that, IMO, just sounds racist, plus African's have suffered at the hands of European's for centuries, so they deserve to it, if they want it). A witch is someone with mystical powers, having a religion doesn't make you a witch or give you mystical powers (to quote the www.whywiccanssuck.com author), just like Christian's can't turn water into wine just 'cause they're Christian, and not all witches are 'earth based' either or even worship a goddess, some are atheist or agnostic.Your not rude at all.Im aware that not all witches believe in any diety,I know a bunch.They worship no one.But it isnt hard to see the Horned one in most traditions,he is everywhere,in one form or another,,and he is not the christian God,no matter how you try to look at it.

Im aware not all witches believe that-all gods are one,and one god is all.
It looks to me like most do,but some dont.

To most christians,,all witches are pagans,and female satanist,,I should know,,I was a fundamentalist all my life.

Can you imagine,a wiccan coven initiating a christian wiccan?Are they going to say,,in the name of Jesus the Son of God?Or,,amen?

Or,in the name of the Father -Son,and Holy Spirit?

Will they call Jesus Christ in ritual?Will they have open bibles,and will they be reading or quoting passages from the bible?

Mix christianinty and wicca,,and you have niether,,the chistians will condemn you to hell,and you will never become initiated into any wiccan coven.

Not so long as you hold to the belief that Jesus is Lord of all.

I suppose anyone can make up thier own religion,and write thier own rules,and come up with thier own beliefs,,people do it all the time.
And anyone can make up a God or Goddess,and some even can convince you that they actually are real,,but it doesnt mean they are being truthfull.

Mankind is known for lieing,,and deceiving,so people dont really have a good track record of speaking truth.

[Mouse]

Heya Azzy :) From your first post I'm guessing you've made a choice and chosen Witchcraft then?
I think you make a very good point with your posts, although I don't agree that the Christian God is a different God that the Witches God, but then, I'm duothesic. :lol: I find a lot of Christian symbolism coming through into my rituals (not from me, but from them upstairs and other spirits) and I don't think this would happen if they were so far removed from each other.

Merilwen, not all witches think that witchcraft is a practice. Some, like me, practice Witchcraft as a religion. :hahugh:

[BlackMagicalCat]

Heya Azzy :) From your first post I'm guessing you've made a choice and chosen Witchcraft then?
I think you make a very good point with your posts, although I don't agree that the Christian God is a different God that the Witches God, but then, I'm duothesic. :lol: I find a lot of Christian symbolism coming through into my rituals (not from me, but from them upstairs and other spirits) and I don't think this would happen if they were so far removed from each other.

Merilwen, not all witches think that witchcraft is a practice. Some, like me, practice Witchcraft as a religion. :hahugh:
Hi Mouse,,No I havent made a choice,,I wont call myself a witch,unless I am initiated into a coven,,because It dishonors those who really are.I can not claim to be following christian teachings either,because I clearly am not.

Nor am I part of a church,they hate me,and Im on the verge of sending them all a hex God himself wont be able to stop.Okay,maybe not God himself,,but you get the point.

I do believe in God,but will not claim to be following the teachings in the bible.
I love God too,,but have no conection to the churches,because they have given me nothing but hell,and hate,and ridicule,,except for a few.

So,I am a wandering servant,looking for his heart,and trying to find his way,in a wilderness of the craft,and I feel the hand of God still with me,as well as the unseen hand of the Goddess.

I dont know what to call myself,so I call myself a servant.

[Ninjakitten]

Hi Mouse,,No I havent made a choice,,I wont call myself a witch,unless I am initiated into a coven,,because It dishonors those who really are.I can not claim to be following christian teachings either,because I clearly am not.

Nor am I part of a church,they hate me,and Im on the verge of sending them all a hex God himself wont be able to stop.Okay,maybe not God himself,,but you get the point.

I do believe in God,but will not claim to be following the teachings in the bible.
I love God too,,but have no conection to the churches,because they have given me nothing but hell,and hate,and ridicule,,except for a few.

So,I am a wandering servant,looking for his heart,and trying to find his way,in a wilderness of the craft,and I feel the hand of God still with me,as well as the unseen hand of the Goddess.

I dont know what to call myself,so I call myself a servant.


Sounds kind of like where I'm at right now, except in my case I still feel comfortable calling myself a Christian (just not a traditional Christian) and a witch, because I practice witchcraft (which in my case I consider it a practice and an art rather than it's own religion, though I can see how it can be it's own religion) and celebrate the wheel of the year, and have a Wiccan influence but am not by any means any sort of Wiccan. Sometimes, seeking God's own heart requires you to not be told by some human made power structure how to get it. I see the Bible, in the way it's been compiled and translated miserably, as part of that structure, but still a guide, just not the ultimate authority on God and Jesus. I consider the Holy Spirit as the ultimate guide on those issues, and God has made it clear to me that I am where He wants me right now, even in my belief in a Goddess (but He wouldn't answer my question on whether or not there is a Goddess, dang it, and She ain't talkin'... to me at least... more like a belonging and a presence).

[Brighid's Seeker]

::HUGS TO AZZY::

Isn't this an interesting limbo land some of us land in?

I don't really know what to call myself, but I hope that maybe I can help some with this question for everyone.

I do not have access to my greek and hebrew lexicons, and my various dictionaries or bibles...=-/ sadly they are in storage at the moment. Heaven's willing we will be in our own home soon and I will have access to them again. For now, I have had to beg and borrow, and surf the net.

I've actually had a couple of naps in the process and I am a bit medicated. However, here goes.

In the New Testament it is thought that the greek translations of "witch" are in reference to those herbalists or pharmacists who produced poisons, abortificants, and even contraceptives. These were considered murderers. It has become much misunderstood and misinterpreted(Much like the homosexuals mentioned in the New Testiment scriptures were the prostitutes who worked in fertility temples and had sex with people of the same sex in fertility rites for money...but that is a whole OTHER post.) over the years as people have bent the scriptures to their needs.

In the Old Testiment...Using Hebrew interpretations as well as a couple of different dictionaries I found a few interesting things. First of all...witch ALWAYS refers to a woman. One defintion refers to a nagging woman. Which then links to the verse in proverbs you know the one...Proverbs 21:9. There was also a reference to a woman who whispers things in the night.

I will try to get links together for everyone, or at least references to books.

Some of this I have to believe refers directly to cultural and social feeling about women during that time frame, especially in regards to women and sexuality.

A woman who could talk dirty to a man, seduce him and make him weak, or who was too bold might well have been thought to be an enchantress or a witch, especially if she had a self posessed attitude in the light of day.

Remember, women were stoned for a great many things in those days.

Just some food for thought.

Witch hunts have after all been around for a very long time.

I know that I am at peace with God and myself now where my spirituality is concerned. I know that Jesus said that my relationship is personal and between he and I. I will trust my soul's judgement to them. In the meantime I will honor all aspects of God. Male and Female.

Because God couldn't have created such a beautiful earth without a woman's touch ;-).

Bright blessings and much love,

Row

[Lady Valkyrie]

Do not take anything that anyone says as truth, including myself, when it comes to biblical theology and doctrine... learn for dig deep, get your hands dirty and research... see if the various things you hear and read from others hold any truth. I suggest that everyone applies to their life what they feel comfortable with and leave the rest. I also suggest that if anyone can't come to terms with another person having a religious/spiritual faith that they just can't seem to agree with... learn to live and let live.

The following has been taken from ReligiousTolerance.org.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT WICCA AND WITCHCRAFT

Introduction

Overview:

It is important to realize that:
* The term "witchcraft" in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) refers to (mostly) women who used spoken curses to injure other people or destroy their property.
* The term, "witchcraft" in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) refers to murderers who use poisons to kill people.
* In North America, "Witch" and "Witchcraft" most often refer to Wiccans and Wicca.
* Wiccans are modern-day Neopagans. They follow Wicca, a new religion that has been created, in part, from ancient Celtic beliefs, practices, Gods, Goddesses, holy days and symbols. They follow the Wiccan Rede, a rule of behavior which prohibits Wiccans from performing any activity that dominates, manipulates, controls, or injures others.

Thus, in terms of behavior, Wicca is a benign and healing religion; the "witchcrafts" mentioned in the Bible are evil and destructive. The two are exact opposites.

Who exactly is a Witch?

In this section, we are considering whether the Bible specifically condemns Wicca. We have not been able to find any translation of either the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures which contains the words Wicca or Wiccan. However, many translations of the Bible, such as the King James Version and the New International Version, condemn what they call "Witches" and "Witchcraft". This causes serious misunderstandings.

The religion of Wicca is one of at least 18 different practices associated with the term "witchcraft." Most of are unrelated to each other. Of these 18 practices, six main forms of "witchcraft" exist today.

The most popular usages of "Witch" refer to:

1. A woman of such incredible beauty that she bewitches men.
2. An old woman, often portrayed with an evil appearance; sometimes called a "hag."
3. A follower of Religious Satanism who either worships Satan or recognizes Satan as a virile pre-Christian, pagan concept. They may perform evil sorcery, but only against their enemies. Real Satanists from the official Church of Satan do not believe in harming animals of any kind except in the case of food consumption and out of defense for one's own life. They also do not believe in the harming of children.
4. A person devoted to performing evil sorcery: using rituals, spoken curses, etc to injure or kill others.
5. A Wiccan; a follower of a modern religion that was reconstructed partly from an ancient religion of the Celts. Wiccans are prohibited from harming others.
6. A Wiccan; a follower of a modern religion that was reconstructed partly from an ancient religion of the Celts. Wiccans are prohibited from harming others.
7. In TV programs like Bewitched, a person, usually a woman, who was born with supernatural abilities and is capable of performing miracles by waving a wand, wiggling a nose, etc.
8. In children's books like the Harry Potter™ series, where people live in an alternate universe with unicorns, invisibility cloaks, dragons, talking animals, magical quills, flying broomsticks, magic wands, etc.

There are many additional meanings not cited above. Most are variations on the above eight.

*rest snipped by mol because of copyright violations - please post a link to the rest of the stuff so folks can take a look, but you can't post an entire article*

Sorry about that ok here are the links to these articles...

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT WICCA AND WITCHCRAFT (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl1.htm)

Interpretation of Exodus 22:18 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm)

Interpretation of Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm)

Interpretation of Galatians 5:19-20 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl4.htm)

Interpretation of Revelation 21:8 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl5.htm)

[ViolinGoddess]

Well, for me, the biggest part of the Bible that refered to witchcraft was the sorcerors in Egypt, the one's that worked for the Pharoh. And to me that meant that if your magick uses other deities, then it is no cool with God. But if you use the power of God, the it's okay. This is why I use either my own energy or holy energy in my magick. No other deities. There is also the mention of "thou shall not suffer a withc to live" but as is said ealier in this thread, the translation was wrong and it should have said "poisoner". If it hasn't already been suggested, here are some web sites for you.

Rawna Moon's website is great! Here is one of her articles. You can connect to her website at the bottom of the page.
http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/what.html

Here is Rawna Moon's main christian witch page.
http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/index.html

Violin Goddess

[Ryden]

In the New Testament it is thought that the greek translations of "witch" are in reference to those herbalists or pharmacists who produced poisons, abortificants, and even contraceptives. These were considered murderers. It has become much misunderstood and misinterpreted(Much like the homosexuals mentioned in the New Testiment scriptures were the prostitutes who worked in fertility temples and had sex with people of the same sex in fertility rites for money...but that is a whole OTHER post.) over the years as people have bent the scriptures to their needs.


Sorry to say, but that's a common misconception.

Exodus 22:18 ~ Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

The Hebrew word for "witch" used is kashaph, which translates into "to practice witchcraft or sorcery; use witchcraft; sorcerer, sorceress".

It becomes apparent when this is the correct translation when the word is used in other parts of the OT where the "witchcraft" translation only makes sense, such as:

Daniel 2:2 ~ Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

Why would the king command poisoners to interpret his dream? Does it make sense to entrust people that kill with poison to do this?

The actual word for poison, ro'sh is not used in Exodus.


Just my two cents on that...

[Lovehound]

I am not sure if this question has already been asked here, I browsed but didn't find the answer in any previous posts (it is possible I missed it, I can't even seem to find my car keys on a daily basis 8O)
With that disclaimer in mind...

I was curious how witchcraft in Christianity is resolved. When I was a baptist I was always taught that the bible says that witches are evil, devil-worshipping people. Is this a belief held in all christian religions? If so, how do you follow Christianity as a practicing witch? Would this not be a conflict of interest?

Sorrow about all the questions, but I am really curious. If you know of a website that explains it, I would love to have the link.

Well, this is why I'm starting to call myself a Catholic - bearing in mind that the word means "universal."

It has been my experience that one must go beyond the Bible and beyond even Jesus to fully experience Divine Light, and once you get there, all is One and it doesn't make any difference anyway.

[Lahmi]

first off, let me say that I am offended by what they told the
Opening Poster about witches..

unfortunately, I am unable to do everything so that misconception
continues..
Please bear in mind that the average christian knows not what
a witch does nor who he or she may be.

Even so, that does not totally excuse such teachings. For if they
follow scripture and walk after my Saviour closely, they will
see that those on the magik paths are merely people..
People that they have been COMMANDED to Lovingly
tell about Jesus and His offer of salvation.

As was already mentioned by Ryden, the translation is correct as witch.

keeping in mind that while Saul was following God, He removed
those that practiced witchcraft from the kingdom.. not put
them to the sword. Leading me to the understanding that,
what was understood at the time, was they were not supposed
to make a living off of the people of Israel with witchcraft.
With another possibility the Hebrew custom of declaring
them dead to you is what was meant.

[Lahmi]

oh.. and the other part of Merilwen's post..

I was unable to resolve using magik when I started following Jesus.....

here are some thoughts I wrote down about the subject.

http://ancientcrossroads.org/christianmagician.html

whoa... I need to change that font size..

[LordHelmet]

witch of endor (saul meets her) is a 'container' (like a jar). In context she apperantly invokes spirits, and provides them a vessel, the word is used similarly in other places. The word implied that she was a woman, but not that she was evil. There could be a connection they made bettween the ability to invoke a spirit and a womans womb. Women are commonly represented by anything that holds water or for that matter anything concave (that must depend on how horny the men making the associations are lol.)

The version that some say is a poisoner is a misconception. I think it came from the idea that the term could as well refer to a poisoner, as pointed out by historian Karen Armstrong. It could also refer to a woman who uses her charms to get men into fights too though. It also might refer to a woman who is simply good at interpreting dreams as long as she was in any way bad ... aka not a rightoues worshipper of JHVH.

It's nothing new for many societys to have a problem with women who could do unexplainable things. They would be a threat (you never know what one of them will do come that time of the month, thinking). Besides, it's not real good on the ego when you gals can do something we can't, other than make babies, cook food, change diapers, and bring us beer (j/k). So whether these women are herbilists, charmers, or real enchanters wasn't an issue, what was an issue was that they could do something others couldn't, that was OK for men more often then women.

The bible is not the only case where such 'witches' are chased around, it's in greek mythology too. They have gotten the same slices of pie as gays, anytime anywhere. Then othertimes they get breaks that gays usualy don't see and are glorified as stuff like prophets.

No, what we call witches here at MW isn't a womans thing, it's an anybody thing, but the naughty ones from way back in the bible days were generaly women. If they were men, nobody would have thought it was evil spiritual forces and demonic powers of their periods.

I hope I didn't offend any women, I'm trying to put it like it is though.

[Carla O'Harris]

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be saying that there's only one god of witches, or 'one, ultimate horned' god, when there never was (only people who try and say all gods are one god), and Lucifer wasn't horned, i don't think, he's a Roman god, according to Aradia, he's Diana's brother (although some people, that i do trust, have said the person who gave Leland the original Aradia may have been a conartist).

Plus, you seem to be saying all witches have to be 'pagan', when that's not true, there's a lot of African witches (yeah, people will say witch was a 'European' word and African's shouldn't use it, but that, IMO, just sounds racist, plus African's have suffered at the hands of European's for centuries, so they deserve to it, if they want it). A witch is someone with mystical powers, having a religion doesn't make you a witch or give you mystical powers (to quote the www.whywiccanssuck.com author), just like Christian's can't turn water into wine just 'cause they're Christian, and not all witches are 'earth based' either or even worship a goddess, some are atheist or agnostic.

David, I don't think it's "racist" to ask that African terms be used for African concepts and practices. It was a decision within the discipline of anthropology to apply the word "witch" to African traditions, when the word "witch" has its own history, which as I have indicated elsewhere, begins with a much more positive light before Christians smear the term. Asking for more common usage of African terms, along with the nuances of their meanings, is both more interesting and more accurate than simply using the term "witch".

It's important when approaching these questions to not reify a particular historical period or construction, but to see history as a series of overlays with various cultural tensions from different eras and conquests coming to the surface. There obviously was high-level tension with what we might call witch practices in the times the Bible was written, but even here we must be careful to triangulate the agenda of the sectarians writing the Bible. How much their conclusions reflect a general consensus is open to question, especially considering how widespread the "heresies" they document seem to be. At the time, they may have been considered to be the equivalent of close-minded Puritans!! And in the Greek and Roman world, autochthonic religion was often felt to be a challenge to the state religion, but not all the time. It depended. Often witch traditions were directly connected to popular forms of worship. Hecate, for example, was extremely holy in some contexts. What the Romans in particular condemned was maleficia -- a type of magic fairly universally, and quite understandably, condemned.

When one loses sight of these concepts, one is capable of abstracting witchcraft from its historical foundations. It is true that a witch was a kind of European shamanic figure, and we find shamanic figures in various religious and cultural traditions all over the world. Being a shaman as such does not connect one to any particular tradition, although it does in general bring with it a general kind of worldview, with an underworld, and a higher world, for example, and an emphasis upon a world-axis or tree which the shaman can ascend or descend. Beyond this, however, European shamanism has its own history with its own texture and context, and passed through many, many cultural overlays. Throughout this overlay process, it retained many archaic levels. (This is all Gardner ever meant about survivals from ancient times. There are genuinely archaic levels present. That doesn't mean the whole kit and kaboodle is from those archaic times.)

Historically, European witches were connected to the earth, and were connected to a goddess figure, a goddess figure who historically is linked to an often horned and often dying and rising god. That this could recur even in the midst of Indo-European cultural overlays that had their own well-developed pantheon indicates the resilience of the concept.

It is fascinating to learn all about the wondrous diversity of trees in the forest, but one must never lose the forest for the trees.

[Carla O'Harris]

"Well,after thinking about this very thing for a while,,the two do not go together.No more than you can be a christian-satanist,,,or a conservative liberal,,,or a Budha-Baptist.Or a fat-skinny person,,,,Or a giant-midget."

But witchcraft isn't a religion, it's a practice...


Thanks everyone who responded!

It's both. "Operative witchcraft" is a practice ; "ritual witchcraft" is a religion. One can be an "operative witch" without being a "ritual witch". But operative witchcraft in general historically derived from ritual witchcraft practices, so in general it does derive from an alternative religious practice.

[David19]

It's both. "Operative witchcraft" is a practice ; "ritual witchcraft" is a religion. One can be an "operative witch" without being a "ritual witch". But operative witchcraft in general historically derived from ritual witchcraft practices, so in general it does derive from an alternative religious practice.

So then if there are 2 distinctions, then anyone can be an operative witch (such as Jew's, Christian's, Satanist's, Muslim's, etc).

Just thought i'd put this in here :).

[Carla O'Harris]

So then if there are 2 distinctions, then anyone can be an operative witch (such as Jew's, Christian's, Satanist's, Muslim's, etc).

Just thought i'd put this in here :).

Yes. Anyone can be a "sorceror" or "shaman", which approximates to operative witchcraft, although it would be nice to append as a suffix the name indigenous to the tradition in question along with some clarification of its nuances.

One of the problems has been the confusion of operative witchcraft with ritual witchcraft. People who say witchcraft wasn't religious are generally referring to operative witchcraft. The Early Modern Age was filled with a lot of popular operative witchcraft (which was a mixture of remnants of the older ritual witchcraft mixed with new clerical Satanic stereotypes), with a small core of ritual witchcraft.

[LadyCelt]

In Daniel chapter 4, he was consulted as chief of the magicians.

[wtfidka]

Ok you have convinced me that with a little bending of things here and there that it may be possible to be a wiccan and a christian, however I am niether I am a Witch, one who does not recognise the reed and I am certainly not just a doer of good deeds. To me life is both good and bad! I do not recognise just one side of the coin, everything has an opposite so for there to be light there must be dark! I cannot see any way possible whereby a witch could be a christian as well!

[David19]

Ok you have convinced me that with a little bending of things here and there that it may be possible to be a wiccan and a christian, however I am niether I am a Witch, one who does not recognise the reed and I am certainly not just a doer of good deeds. To me life is both good and bad! I do not recognise just one side of the coin, everything has an opposite so for there to be light there must be dark! I cannot see any way possible whereby a witch could be a christian as well!

Magic is a tool and anyone (or more precisely, anyone who has the skill and dedication) can work magic, it has nothing to do with religion or whatever you believe.

Think of it like a hammer, it's a tool, it can be used to build things or kill people, yet a Christian (or a Jew or a Muslim or a Satanist) can still use magic.

[Merilwen]

Wow.

I dissapeared for a few months and missed all the wonderful debating! I did, however, want to thank everyone who was kind enough to post their beliefs (however late it is in coming). I guess it is wrong to hold other religions up to pre-concieved notions, especially as a member of one that has to deal with that sort of thing so often...


Now, in the spirit of curiousity...a new question. (I guess I should have labeled this thread, lets all school Merilwen!)

This is less of a theological thing, and more of me just being curious...

I know it is hard on many people to find fellowship just being pagan, but as a christian-witch, or christian- pagan, or christian-whatever you are, how hard is it to find those of like belief, and how do your fellow christians take it when/if they find out your beliefs?

[gurlygurl2004]

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" So where is this verse in the bible and what exactly does it mean?

[LostSheep]

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" So where is this verse in the bible and what exactly does it mean?

Exodus 22:18. But that particular wording was only put into English in the King James version, and he was notoriously paranoid about witches, and a lot of the wording in that was put in to fit his own prejudices. I think the original (or the greek translation of the Hebrew, it's been translated through so many languages things can easily get distorted) referred to "poisoners" or something similar to that , or murderers in general at any rate, rather than "witches" as such.

(it comes just after "And if a man entice a maiden that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins", which gives you an idea how women were treated then, and how so much of it was very specifc to the time.) That was written more than 1,000 years before Jesus' time, and he recognised that things had changed over time, and that not all of it was relevant now.

[gurlygurl2004]

THanks.