Lesson 2 -- Black Magic?

[~Elise~]

This could result in a heated discussion--please keep things civil. Remember our rule - RESPECT

Black Magic--does it exist?

This is my point of view on things.
The definition I give my IRL students is that magic is the ability to change reality at will. Magic is like electricity. It is universal energy out there waiting to be tapped into. There is not white or black electric--there is no white or black magic. white and black magic get into having a value assigned to them. WE, as society, place that value.

This is just an excerpt from a very long article, That Old Black Magic, by Judy Harrow:

Saying "black" when we mean "evil" is nasty nonsense. In the first place, it reinforces the racist stereotypes that corrupt our society. And that's not all. Whenever we say "black" instead of "bad," we repeat again the big lie that darkness is wrong. It isn't, as people who profess to love Nature should know. Darkness can mean the inside of the womb, and the seed germinating within the Earth, and the chaos that gives rise to all truly new beginnings. In our myths, the one who goes down to the underworld returns with the treasure. Even death, to the pagan understanding, is well-earned rest and comfort, and a preparation for new birth. Using "black" to mean "bad" is a blasphemy against the Crone.

But even if we no longer speak of magic as "black" or "white," we still need to think and speak about the ethics of magic. Although black is not evil, some actions are evil. It simply is not true that anything a person is strong enough or skilled enough to do is OK, nor should doing what we will ever be the whole of the law for us. We need a clear and specific vocabulary that enables us to choose wisely what we will do.

We need to replace the word "black," not simply to drop it. Some Pagans have tried using "negative" as their substitute, but that turned out to be confusing. For some people, "negative" means any spell to diminish or banish anything. Some things - tumors, depression, bigotry - are harmful. There's nothing wrong with a working to get rid of bad stuff. "Left-handed" is another common term for wrongful practice, very traditional, but just as ignorant, superstitious and potentially harmful as the phrase "black magic" itself. So in Proteus we tried using the word "unethical." That's a lot better - free of extraneous and false implications - but still too vague. Gradually, I began to wonder whether using any one word, "black" or "unethical" or whatever, might just be too general and too subjective.

If ethical principles are going to survive the twin tests of time and temptation, people need to understand just what to avoid, and why. Even more important, they need a basis for figuring out what to do instead. Especially when it comes to projective magic.
Projective magic means active workings, the kind in which we project our will out into the world to make some kind of change. This is what most people think of when they use the word magic at all. Quite clearly, magic that may affect other people is magic that can harm. This is the basis of the proverb "a Witch who can't hex can't heal." Either you can raise and direct power, or you can't. Your strength and skill can be used for blessing or for bane. The choice - and the karma - are yours.

Just as some people feel that strength and skill are their own justification, others feel that any projective magic is always wrong - that it is a distraction from our one true goal of union with the Divine or a willful avoidance of the judgements of Karma. I think these attitudes are equally inconsistent with basic pagan philosophy.

We are taught that we will find the Lady within ourselves or not at all, that the Mother of All has been with us from the beginning. We can't now establish a union that was always there. All we can do, all we need to do, is become aware. Knowing what it feels like to heal and empower, again and again till you can't dismiss it as coincidence, is one of the most powerful methods for awakening that awareness. It makes no sense to say that the direct experience and exercise of our indwelling divinity distracts from the Great Work. Indeed, it is this intimate connection between our magic and our self-realization that our ethics protect. Wrongful use of magic will choke the channel. No short term gain could ever compensate for that.

The karmic argument against practical workings seems to me to arise from a paranoid and defeatist world view. Even if we assume that the hardships in this life were put there by the Gods for a reason, how can we be so sure that the reason was punishment? Perhaps instead of penance to be endured, our difficulties are challenges to be met. Coping and dealing with our problems, learning magical and mundane skills, changing ourselves and our world for the better - in short, growing up - is that not what the Gods of joy and freedom want from us?

One of the most radically different things about a polytheistic belief system is that each one of us has the right, and the need, to choose which God/desses will be the focus of our worship. We make these choices knowing that whatever energies we invoke most often in ritual will shape our own further growth. Spiritual practices are a means of self-programming. So we are responsible for what we worship in a way that people who take their One God as a given are not.

Think about this: what kind of Power actively wants us to submit and suffer, and objects when we develop skills to improve our own lives? Not a Being I'd want to invite around too often!

So it will not work for us to rule out projective magic completely; nor should we. Total prohibitions are as thoughtless as total permissiveness or blind obedience. Ethical and spiritual adults ought to be able to make distinctions and well-reasoned choices. I offer here a start toward analysing what kinds of magic are not ethical for us.

Black magic is magic done for the explicit purpose of causing harm to another person. Usually the reason for it is revenge, and the rationalization is justice. People who defend the practice of baneful magic often ask "but wouldn't you join in cursing another Hitler?"

For adults there is no rule without exceptions. If you think you would never torture somebody, consider this scenario: in just half an hour the bomb will go off, killing everybody in the city, and this terrorist knows where it is hidden.... It's a bad mistake to base your ethics on wildly unlikely cases, since none of us honestly knows how we would react in that kind of extreme. Reasonable ethical statements are statements about the behaviors we expect of ourselves under normally predictable circumstances.

We all get really angry on occasion, and sometimes with good cause. Then revenge can seem like no more than simple justice. The anger is a normal, healthy human reaction, and should not be repressed. But there's no more need to act it out in magic than in physical violence. Instead of going for revenge - and invoking the karmic consequences of baneful magic - identify what you really need. For example, if your anger comes from a feeling that you have been attacked or violated, what you need is protection and safe space. Work for the positive goal, it's both more effective and safer.

But not every other magician is ethical. Psychic attacks do happen. Should we not defend ourselves? Of course we should. Leaving ourselves open to psychic attack is no good example of the autonomy and assertiveness our chosen Gods expect. But first, how can we be sure what we are experiencing really is psychic attack?

The fantasy of psychic attack is often a convenient excuse that allows us to avoid looking at our own shortcomings. When lack of rest or improper nutrition is the cause of illness, or a project isn't completed on time because of distraction, it's a real temptation to put the blame outside ourselves. Doing this too easily betrays our autonomy just as badly as meek submission to attack does. Then, to compound matters, projected blame becomes an excuse for unjust revenge -- and that is baneful magic without excuse.

Once in a rare while, some fool really does try to throw a whammy. It's hard to predict when you might be targeted. Passive shields are always a good idea. Like a mirror, these are totally inactive until somebody sends unwelcome energy. Then a shield will protect you completely and bounce back whatever is being thrown. You may not even know consciously when your shield is working, but the result is perfect justice. Perfect justice; elegant and efficient. You won't hurt anybody out of paranoia or by mistake. And perfect protection, even though we do not have perfect knowledge.

So, baneful magic, besides being painful in the short run and crippling in the long run, is never necessary. There are better ways of self protection, and retribution is the business of the Gods.

Coercive magic is magic that targets another person to make them give us something we want or need. When most people think of the "Magic Power of Witchcraft," this is what they have in mind.

The spell to make the teacher give you a good grade, or the supervisor give you a good evaluation, the spell to make the personnel officer or renting agent choose you, the spell to attract that cute guy, all are examples of coercive magic.

So, what's wrong with high grades, a good job, a raise, a nice apartment and a sexy lover? There's nothing at all wrong with those goals. An it harm none, do what ye will. As long as nobody is hurt, go for it! But don't strive toward good ends by coercive means.

Are you beginning to think that magic is useless? Did I just rule out all the good stuff: love charms, job magic, spells for good grades? Not at all. It is not only ethical but good for you to do lots of magic to improve your own life. Whenever it works you will get more than you asked for - because along with whatever you asked for comes one more experience of your own effectiveness, your power-from-within.

Work on yourself and your own needs and desires without targeting other people. Then feel free! Ask for what you want. Visualize it and raise power for it and act in accordance on the material plane. "I need a caring and horny lover with a good sense of humor." "I want an affordable apartment near where my coven meets with a tree outside my window." "I need to be at my best when I take that exam next week." Fulfill your dreams, and sometimes let the Gods surprise you with gifts beyond your dreams.


So, what do y'all think? Let the discussion ensue....

Elise

[Necrobomber]

I think she has a point that using the term "black" is in a way racist. However, how else are we to describe magic with evil intentions? the only other way i can think of to describe black magic is dark magic or shadow magic.

[~Elise~]

Evil intentions from whose point of view? Playing devil's advocate here.

If I do a death spell on a rapist--is that evil? From mine--it isn't--from the rapist's-it probably is-but does my evil cancel out his evil?

Good-evil, Dark-white--still all values that WE assign.



Elise

[Necrobomber]

that's a good point you bring up teacher. But still if a mage, necromancer, or spellcaster of some kind has an evil mind and evil intentions when casting a spell, a summon, a hex...then the outcome is evil magic because of the caster's state of mind. am i wrong?

[Garden of Eden]

Evil intentions from whose point of view? Playing devil's advocate here.

If I do a death spell on a rapist--is that evil? From mine--it isn't--from the rapist's-it probably is-but does my evil cancel out his evil?

Good-evil, Dark-white--still all values that WE assign.

Elise

The main problem that I have with casting a vengeful spell is my ignorance of the exact circumstances. If I start casting spells on every rapist or murderer on the news, eventually I'm probably going to hit someone who's been wrongly accused or who acted under specific circumstances which lessen the "evil" of their crime. Even if the person is close to me and I watch the "evil" taking place, I don't know what's happening in their head or what other influencing factors have brought them to this moment and these decisions. I simply don't feel it's my place in the universe to be judge, jury and executioner. I don't want to be any of those, actually. We are by nature judgemental, but it's not a good way to live your life, measuring others by harsh standards (often harsher than we measure ourselves). Who am I, in my limited knowledge, to start throwing harm out into the universe? I say leave the biggies to the Gods. :p

But what about the gray area of 'justice spells'? Is a spell which calls for justice a safer option, since you're not creating harm, you're just sending back what a person originally projected? Is it a safeguard against hitting someone falsely accused, since the universe won't deal justice to an innocent person? But of course there's the constant worry that in speeding up karmic retribution, we also draw it more quickly to ourselves (i.e. your hands better be clean before you start asking for the scales to be balanced!)

All magic is going to be subjective, I suppose. Some people are totallly anti-love spell, while others say that a spell which draws an unspecified person to you is absoloutely fine. It's always going to depend on your point of view and the personal values you hold. Where do we draw the line? Is it wrong or evil to heal someone? Probably not. If they don't want to be healed or they're completely anti-magic/witchcraft? It becomes a little less ethical. If someone is behaving in a really self-destructive way, you might decide to bind them to help them. But you may block a very important life lesson and ultimately hold them back from what they're meant to learn. And technically speaking, you're imposing on their free will-- you're taking their freedom! :awilly: Is that not a powerful 'evil'? It all comes down to viewpoint. What looks 'wrong' or manipulative from my angle might not be from someone else's. To me, it's about being able to take responsibility for the decisions I make.

[Infinite Grey]

I disagree with the term "black magic" being racist in origin. Though I'm sure there could be connections made, but the idea of black or darkness being evil wasn't fundamentally racist. It was how ever, a factor in racism. Black or darkness refers to the fundamental instinctive fear in all humans on a primitive level. In the dark, we are vulnerable, this leads to the instinctive response of fear, which is designed to heighten our scenes and instill a need to find a safe area (light). About 60% of the way humans perceive the world is through sight, which means we are at our most vulnerable in situations without light. But it also means we are at our strongest in well lit areas. This is probably the origin of the concept of Black being evil and White being good.

The racism emerges when people compare the darkness to dark skinned people, it was a subconscious connection, and a superstitious connection.

This doesn't mean the term "Black magic" is inherently racist.

[Hermgirl]

I'm going to print this out and mull it over for a while...I like it.

[CelticMoon11]

I agree with Peacock about the term "black magic" not being racist in origin. Especially in mythologies a lot of dark figures and places shows this inherent fear of darkness based on the fact we cannot see what is there which leaves us vulnerable.

I feel "unethical" in place is very context limited on a cross cultural scale and also extremely subjective. I do agree that it is not the energy itself that is "evil" it is the intent but there are nasties out there that aren't the result of an "unethical person".

In terms of Karma not everyone believes in Karma and many don't believe in the threefold law.

I personally haven't hexed, cursed, or done mundane workings, most of my magical practices are to honor those upstairs, their holidays and for requesting healing for others and for spiritual and psychic development which I think are the "good stuff" :D

I personally think that "black magic" is just trying to establish psychic links with another to bring harmful energies into their lives sometimes for a desired purpose, sometimes just for a bunch of "bad luck". Maybe "ill-willed magic" is a term to be considered? Magic is based on will and intent and they are trying to be coercive or just "ill willed" towards another...so it covers it..sort of :lol:

I don't know I've just awoken from a nana-nap and haven't had a coffee yet so shall leave it here for now here's hoping for some great discussion!

Celtic Moon 11

[Tarbh Nathroch]

This is one of those times I would prefer to read rather than post…but I should participate in the class…so

I don’t believe in black magic or white for that matter. I see nothing as evil or good. They are fake terms that only have meaning for the one with the opinion. There is no “good” or “bad” there just “is”. Like stated before weather something is good or evil is the sole decision of the self and the programming of that mind.

I just killed 437 people over the last 3 years they died in horrible agony, they were tortured and suffered like you could never imaging and begged for death every day. By doing so I cured 17 diseases including all forms of cancer. Not another person, not one child will ever suffer Cancer again…..Am I evil?

Good and evil are empty values.

(This opinion is my own and based on my brain’s programming and you are by no means expected to feel or believe the same way, nor is it presented as "the way it is")

[Wytchie]

I definitely agree that magic itself is neither ethical or unethical, it is simply a force that we can learn to tap into and manipulate.

I also agree that ultimately, it is going to come down to the conscience or beliefs, or whatever you want to term it, of the caster as to what it ethical to do and what is not. Being here at MW has clearly illustrated to me the vast diversity of belief systems which fall under the Pagan umbrella, and I know that ideas I hold to be true are most likely not held to be true by others, if not the majority, of people here. Different cultures and situations are also going to result in different viewpoints about what is and is not morally 'right' or 'wrong'.

Just as it is not my place to judge them, their actions, and their beliefs, it is not their responsibility to judge or 'nanny' me...therefore it is very important that I think on what it is exactly that I personally find ethical and unethical. No one else out there realistically can do this for me, not only do they not ultimately have the right, but they cannot ever really know ME as much as I know myself, so it would be stupid of me to ask them to make decisions such as this for me.

This isn't to say that the input of others is not valuable; it is highly likely that things others may say may trigger a new thought line in my own head, bringing me to a different point that I may never have got to by myself. But it is important that I listen to the arguments made, then make up my own mind.

I personally think that magic cast in ignorance is the least ethical..by that I mean magic cast when someone has not carefully thought, not only about their actions, but the possible consequences of their actions too. I have little patience for those who claim "well I had no idea that would happen" on a regular basis...if a magic has been carefully thought out, most possible scenarios should have crossed the caster's mind, so nothing should be a surprise result. Although I do accept that this is bound to happen from time to time (we are never going to be 100% right all of the time, or see things with perfect clarity 100% of the time), if this happens a lot I would suggest that the caster is using magic immorally or unethically, as they are starting things up which they have paid little time or attention to trying to understand.

I can accept that people may cast things I personally find to be unethical, but if they do so in a clear and thought out way, then ultimately their decision is their decision, and it is not up to me to question that. But magic cast without thought is another thing entirely...this doesn't come from a different understanding of morals or ethics, this comes from a lack of commitment, or a 'toying' with things. Careless magic is to me, the most unethical.

[moonbride]

I don’t believe in black magic or white for that matter. I see nothing as evil or good. They are fake terms that only have meaning for the one with the opinion. There is no “good” or “bad” there just “is”. Like stated before weather something is good or evil is the sole decision of the self and the programming of that mind.

I believe this too...to some extent and I loved the analogy with the cancer too. It makes sense. To me the energy just "is" but I do believe that there can be evil people with evil intent and that's where the need for protection comes in the most.

As far as anything magical I do, the only thing I can really do is to not have any intent to cause harm or evil. Is there really any way to know if you would cause harm to someone or something, though? No... I don't think there really is but as long as my intent is genuine I feel that I'm ok. And i certainly think that I should be able to try and protect myself from evil, too.

I don't feel that "black magic" is anything racial as well. I feel that there is a fear of the dark and the unknown. In the dark, you have less control because of what you can't see and that's probably where that comes from.

There's so much more to this, though... I definitely want to watch this thread closely and see what others think.

[~Elise~]

I think this is the best discussion that has happened on this topic since I've taught this class.

Keep up the discussion. Due to time contraints, and that pesky thing called a job, I can't post right now. I'll do it tonight.

Elise

[Philosophia]

While racism may not be the only reason, I do see it as a major factor in the label black magic, especially considering that the color white, in some Asian cultures, is seen as evil and death. However, it’s so engrained within our society that simply changing the label is hard.

I don’t believe black magick exists, simply because it colors an energy that absorbs all. It is only with our intent can we do anything “harmful”, and even then the energy may not always do want we want. Nonetheless, I will hex/curse someone if all mundane avenues have failed, and they have hurt either my loved ones or myself. Knowing this, I haven’t hexed anybody because the occasion has not arisen.

I do not believe in the three-fold law or the Wiccan rede. I do believe in the physics law “for every action there is an equal, opposite action” and I subscribe to the opinion “if you cannot hex, you cannot heal.” In spite of this, I do judge every situation with hopefully an open, but logical, mind.

With everything I do, I try to make sure I cannot harm anybody. Yet I know with some of my spells that have helped me, I could have harmed another person but taking a position, money, or energy that they would’ve wanted. I also know that I can’t “not harm” another living thing because everything I do has some sort of impression (whether good or bad) on others. I think it’s the conscious acts of harm that we have to be careful of, yet its difficult when you “over think” the situation. I also believe that healing a person can create some harm because of energy use, the intention and the possible ramifications in the future. Everything can cause harm, so while I try not to harm anybody, I also acknowledge that I probably unintentionally will.

I do judge other people by their actions and their intent. If I know a child molester, rapist, serial killer, etc. will hurt somebody, I believe it is my ethical and moral duty to try to stop them by any means necessary. But I have to have solid information and evidence provided to me before I do anything otherwise I could end up harming an innocent person.

This probably makes no sense at all because I'm really tired right now. :awilly:

[Kmartin60]

Well, I can see it termed "that" and also see the other side of the coin also! Just like a serial rapist, or serial murderer...there could possibly mages that just throw spells, hex's energies, etc.just because!
And it's karmic effect hasnt caught up to them, or they flat dont care!

But for me...I think it is also a test to anyone as they start to grow into their talents and energies...a test will come along with that. Yes, I originally have gone back to my teenage roots of what some call new age stuff, magic, divination etc. for help with my health issues...but as I have seen mentioned...maybe I shouldnt do anything in case I'm suppose to learn a MAJOR lesson? Or if I waited a bit anyway, been able to help another even more so, if I was still as I am now!..hmmmm..its hard to believe that anything good can come but, you never take anything for granted either!

Also, I dont think in terms of black/white..more attitudes, negativities, intent. Just in the last couple of days since signing up for this class, after posting why I decided to join...:hehehehe: I have been sent my first test! (I think, I pray, that is all it is!)

As I have grown while reconnecting to things I could do as child...going back, and relearning or bringing them back to surface, not sure how to phrase it...one thing this last 3 weeks, is I get messages in the chat line or IM line format! (stupid sounding isnt it?) but night before last was sent one that was the clearest and strongest one yet! And it came with the handle of one of my forum buddies from another forum...(also last person I IM'd that night) and they were explaining all this stuff..how our owner of the forum had been attacked by someone from this HUGE group that she use to belong to, and just on and on..and If I cared for her or the forum and its members I would do this and put a....then stopped to clarify

"Its not really a hex, more of a binding!"..in a real molly-coddle way like when trying to get kid to take medicines by saying "Oh! It tastes like Grape Jelly!" and passed over it...gave me the whole spell, chant...everyting! Freaked me out! It was the clearest, most vivid dream in years...enough that I got up at 3:45 AM, to sit on toilet with scrap of paper to jot down what I oculd remember, so I woulndt forget part of it before I got up. (shudders, not had goose bumps like this since the blob and dawn of the dead!) oopps! I just gave away my age! Drat!....

But, there is no WAY im gonna do that! Best to do a reflection charm or spell...who am I to decide...morally in my gut? NO, NO, a thousand times no.
:)
Im sure more tests will come, especially if and as I grow stronger, so thats why this class is such a great idea. Need all the help I can get! Just my point of view....Kim

[MoonDragn]

Evil intentions from whose point of view? Playing devil's advocate here.

If I do a death spell on a rapist--is that evil? From mine--it isn't--from the rapist's-it probably is-but does my evil cancel out his evil?

Good-evil, Dark-white--still all values that WE assign.



Elise

The question here is who's job is it to judge other people? If you kill someone because you think they are evil, that still makes you a murderer. Evil cannot be defeated by evil acts.

It is the action that is evil, not necessarily the person. We are all morally mixed between good and evil. Some of us are just not in the right mind to tell the difference.

Therefore, the only thing you really need to worry about here is, are my actions ethical? Don't judge other people, les you be judged yourself.

Whever I perform magic, I ask myself a simple question, what would happen if this spell was cast on me? I believe in the three fold law, that whatever I do will come back to me three fold. Therefore, to me, the best way to achieve what I want is to wish it on someone else. I get it back three times as much!

[moonbride]

It is the action that is evil, not necessarily the person. We are all morally mixed between good and evil. Some of us are just not in the right mind to tell the difference.

That does make more sense than what I first said about there being evil people... at least for the most part. But I do believe that there can also be evil people that know exactly what they are doing and do it anyway. So I think there's a little of both. I have known people in my life that are like that.

But I do agree that it's not necessarily up for us to judge and even though I do believe that there can be evil people, there's still no way for us to know all the circumstances. I think at some point, whether in this lifetime or another, their karmic retributions bite them in the ass. I think our emotions might tell us that we should do something about it, but it's not necessarily up to us to find their justice. I think all we should be worried about is protecting ourselves from it and protecting our loved ones in a way that we can feel good about our own karma.

[Brightshores]

Wow. This is all really, really fascinating! :reading:

I don't think the issue is simply "Does black magic exist and is it acceptable?" I suppose some of the fundamental questions in all of philosophy are relevant here. What is good? What is evil? Do they ever overlap? Do they even exist as absolute ethical dimensions? The very definition of "black" or "unethical" (a term I haven't heard before but like very much) magic seems to refer to "evil" intentions or actions.

But, as some of you have already said, an evil work in one frame of reference can have far-reaching good consequences to the world. The cancer and Hitler analogies already mentioned in this thread are great examples of that, and there are many, many others. That being said, very rarely do individuals have the kind of influence that can directly affect major world events or huge groups of people at one time. Most of the time, I think, individuals are dealing with other individuals or small groups of people - we're human, and are often most comfortable working on a human scale.

Personally, I do believe that absolute good and absolute evil do exist. I am not a moral relativist. However, I think that these states rarely exist in and of themselves - most, if not all, people exist somewhere between those two extremes, and most, if not all, actions do likewise. I also think that it's impossible for us as humans to perceive all the possible consequences of any given action or situation. To do that, we would need to be omniscient, and that, in my opinion, is something only the Gods can achieve. That is, I think, one of the fundamental things separating human from Divine.

Anyway - after all this theoretical rambling... my actual answers to the question. I believe that each person, in every decision they make, has this choice: "Am I going to contribute to the total store of happiness and goodness in the world, or am I going to contribute to the totality of evil, anger, pain, and hate?" Obviously, this question doesn't apply to every decision: deciding what to cook for dinner doesn't usually have karmic consequences. (I guess if you're a vegan, it might... but I'm rambling again. This gets very confusing!)

"Black magic" or "unethical magic," to me, then, is any spiritual or intentional act which is intended to contribute to evil, pain, and hate. Obviously - most people don't think in those terms - but actions which have those effects often follow from greed, revenge, anger, a desire for power or control over others, etc. (Of course, some people are simply psychopathic or sociopathic, but that's something else again.) Often, unethical magic simply is an accident, resulting from thoughtlessness or an incomplete understanding of or examination of the facts of a given situation.

That is the risk we take when we try to influence the world, through magical or through conventional means - we take the risk that what we do will hurt someone else and that the resulting spiritual consequences will be with us. All we can do is try most sincerely to learn all the facts of a situation and understand it as fully as possible before we project our intentions out into the world. Or, in cases where we're trying to affect our own lives, through trying to find money, love, etc... we can try to frame our requests and desires in such a way that we take into account any possible undesirable effects on others. We have to be responsible and considerate. Of course, that's a good idea in general, whether in magical circumstances, or just in day to day life!

Sorry for rambling! This is really interesting - I look forward to hearing more about what everyone has to say! :steppy:

[anomalous]

... I subscribe to the opinion “if you cannot hex, you cannot heal.” ...

I agree with 90% of the sentiment of what your saying but the above statement has me a bit baffled. Are you saying that someone who walking on an "evil" road of self hate and emotion filled distress for fellow man can turn around and simply start healing who he/she wishes?

Or are you saying, for the amount of posative energy one can put out its equally as strong on the negative?

I love the almost taoist approach the discussion, it definatly shows many wise people on this forum :)

[Wytchie]

I agree with 90% of the sentiment of what your saying but the above statement has me a bit baffled. Are you saying that someone who walking on an "evil" road of self hate and emotion filled distress for fellow man can turn around and simply start healing who he/she wishes?

Or are you saying, for the amount of posative energy one can put out its equally as strong on the negative?

I love the almost taoist approach the discussion, it definatly shows many wise people on this forum :)

Hmmm interesting, I always took it as having the ability to hex if needed, rather than the idea of "if you haven't hexed you cannot heal" more along the lines of "if you CANNOT hex you cannot heal"; I had never thought of it in the first sense you suggest tbh, so thanks for that!:)

Although I would still say it is more a case of having the ability than actually using it, even after having a little think ;) , I suppose to me it implies the old idea of "know the enemy"...how can you properly cure something if you don't really understand what it is? All that type of thing...or something..8O

[Infinite Grey]

I just killed 437 people over the last 3 years they died in horrible agony, they were tortured and suffered like you could never imaging and begged for death every day. By doing so I cured 17 diseases including all forms of cancer. Not another person, not one child will ever suffer Cancer again…..Am I evil?

Good and evil are empty values.

(This opinion is my own and based on my brain’s programming and you are by no means expected to feel or believe the same way, nor is it presented as "the way it is")

What you have described here could fall under the Act Utilitarianism concept, to which basically the end justifies the means. The wikipedia example uses the analogy of 5 people are admitted to an emergency room, each with a different internal organ is fatally damaged. A 6th person is also admitted to the hospital with perfectly healthy internal organs. The doctors choose to sacrifice the healthy person and transplant the healthy organs to the 5 dieing patients. Seems to be the logical thing to do right? 1 person dies to save 5 other people. The flaw is that relatively healthy people will stop going to hospitals if this was a common practice and the concept would fail.


Rule Utilitarianism looks at the consequences of an action over an extended period of time and bases the rules of conduct on these consequences. Act Utilitarianism bases choices on a short term selection of consequences, choosing the most favourable outcome for the immediate or near immediate situation.

Killing 437 painfully over a 3 year period would be Act Utilitarianism, and ultimately flawed. Even if the cure of cancer was discovered over that time, you would have lost the trust of the general people and lost all creditability.

So if were to look at good and evil based on consequences on extended time frame, the events that lead to a negative and/or destructive outcome would be considered evil.

This indicates that sacrificing 437 people for the advancement of the study and eventual cure to cancer would be considered evil, on a long enough time line.

[Tarbh Nathroch]

See these are fun topics and can never gain any ground in one direction or the other because of the one truth I have ever seen…people are weird.

The intention can be a deciding factor if it was evil or good, harmful or beneficial, chaos or order or what ever two sided coin you would like. But so can the perception of it by people other than the one who did it.

I killed a dog to be cruel…..evil, harmful, chaotic
I killed a dog to eat….good, beneficial, order (You could have had a salad…it was evil)

An act or magical doing will almost never end up at the same place with more than one person having an opinion of it.

[atropa]

I personally think that magic cast in ignorance is the least ethical..by that I mean magic cast when someone has not carefully thought, not only about their actions, but the possible consequences of their actions too. I have little patience for those who claim "well I had no idea that would happen" on a regular basis...if a magic has been carefully thought out, most possible scenarios should have crossed the caster's mind, so nothing should be a surprise result. Although I do accept that this is bound to happen from time to time (we are never going to be 100% right all of the time, or see things with perfect clarity 100% of the time), if this happens a lot I would suggest that the caster is using magic immorally or unethically, as they are starting things up which they have paid little time or attention to trying to understand.

I think that's a very good point. Simple ignorance can be as dangerous, if not more, than any intentional workings. The article by Judy Harrow was really good, and I thought it was right on. That said, I think that any magic used to manipulate any person, even if done with good intentions is unethical. Any magic done in vengeance towards anyone also. I believe you should always think long and hard before doing any magic with the exception of Sabbats, full moons, house blessings, etc., and make sure that it's not going to inadverdently hurt someone..

[Tarbh Nathroch]

I liked that point too

[Sivafae]

I am going to take a macrocosm/microcosm approach to such matters. This is a matter that I have long meditated on since I knew people that would consider themselves on the "left-hand path," by which they mean a darker sort of magic. And after years of knowing these people, I have figured out that really what they are into is controlling magic, as in controlling other people. Mostly these people were interested in gaining power for power's sake
.
So in the Grand scheme of things, we need to reflect on where our place is in the universe/macrocosm, and how that translates into the microcosm. Especially when Karma is introduced into the conversation. When people do things that are unethical, and seemingly have no repercussions, we are sometimes left with questions of "how do they get away with that?" Responsiblility is the name of the game for me. Karma can be negated simply by learning the lesson that Karma is presenting to you, and that is your responsiblility. So when Karma is not metted out the way we think it should, is it our responsiblility to do the work of the Lords and Ladies of Karma? I think not.

Having been a victim of these so-called friends of mine with their controlling magic, I learned some very valuable things. One, that they will have absolutely no effect on your Karma, and that they are setting themselves up for being drowned in their own misery (because at the heart of it, these people are usually pretty miserable). Also, that since I am aware, I have a choice to accept their magical intents or not. Lastly, that these people do not accept their own place in the Microcosm/macrocosm scheme of things and seek to place themselves higher than they really are. But these are all people that have had some magical education.

The ones with out magical education are truly the most dangerous because they simply do not know or are aware of what they are doing, and their will can sneak in through the back doors. They can be really hard to shield because they are only meta/subconscious of what they wish, and seem to think that they will harm no one with their thoughts or desires. What makes them so powerful is the ablility to keep their mouth shut about these thoughts and desires, sometimes even to themselves. On the Astral this translates into dreams of being attacked or seduced (my personal favorite!). The major difference in my experience is that a magician/witch with state clearly their will, while a non-initiate will just sense and not really articulate well, if at all. Again to go back to the relation to the Microcosm/macrocosm thing, since there is very little education to assist these people very rarely does it get to the place where karma needs to be doled out. They are rarely very powerful, but they can muck things up.

So is Magical Self defense necessary? Absolutely. Because while I don't think that non-initiates are terribly powerful, they can gum up some of your best laid plans, and best plans to get laid.
I hope that all makes sense. I am going to go ahead and post it, but I may try to clarify later.

[AstralMagick]

In the dark, we are vulnerable, this leads to the instinctive response of fear, which is designed to heighten our scenes and instill a need to find a safe area (light). About 60% of the way humans perceive the world is through sight, which means we are at our most vulnerable in situations without light. But it also means we are at our strongest in well lit areas. This is probably the origin of the concept of Black being evil and White being good.

The racism emerges when people compare the darkness to dark skinned people, it was a subconscious connection, and a superstitious connection.


I do agree that 'black' and 'white' magic did not originate from racism, and that some feel dark is evil because they feel vulnerable, and light is good because people know more about their surroundings.

The main reason for 'black' and 'white' titels (imo), is that the 'wise' people figured out the properties of the colors. Red is strength, yellow is happiness, white is protective, black is absorbing. I don't know exactly how all of the colors got their meanings, but white is the presence of all colors, and black is the absence of any. Black absorbs all colors, all energies. I've just hypothesized that it's from 'absence of color' emptiness, loneliness, and vulnerability became what black was in many people's minds.

I prefer to call-this magic we're trying to name-simply negative energies. I know that Pearls mentioned that it can be confused with the absense of energy, but I in turn call 'the absence of energy' 'empty energy'.
As long as I clear all this up with whoever I'm working with, everything is clear.

[AstralMagick]

While racism may not be the only reason, I do see it as a major factor in the label black magic, especially considering that the color white, in some Asian cultures, is seen as evil and death. However, it’s so engrained within our society that simply changing the label is hard.



So then you're saying that the representation of every color is merely a 'label'?

[atropa]

I am going to take a macrocosm/microcosm approach to such matters. This is a matter that I have long meditated on since I knew people that would consider themselves on the "left-hand path," by which they mean a darker sort of magic. And after years of knowing these people, I have figured out that really what they are into is controlling magic, as in controlling other people. Mostly these people were interested in gaining power for power's sake.


I think that is a very big factor. My latest run in with someone of this type is my brother's ex girlfriend. Not only is she controlling in the magical sense, but in the mundane as well. She actually drugged my brother with GHB when he broke up with her one night so that he wouldn't remember doing it. I know that sounds outlandish, but he was drugged by her on several occasions, and is actually in counselling now after having recovered memories of things she subjected him to while drugged. Now THAT is controlling. Good observation, Sivafae.

[Philosophia]

So then you're saying that the representation of every color is merely a 'label'?

Yep. Colors are just colors. We're the ones who put the associations and labels on them.

[Philosophia]

I agree with 90% of the sentiment of what your saying but the above statement has me a bit baffled. Are you saying that someone who walking on an "evil" road of self hate and emotion filled distress for fellow man can turn around and simply start healing who he/she wishes?
Or are you saying, for the amount of posative energy one can put out its equally as strong on the negative?
I love the almost taoist approach the discussion, it definatly shows many wise people on this forum :)

I see the statement "if you cannot hex, you cannot heal" to mean more than just simply negative/positive. To hex, you must be able to raise energy and direct it at will and to heal is the same principle. If you cannot raise energy to hex, then obviously you can't heal.
Thats what I believe it is anyway. Also, if a person can hex than they can heal, so this person who is walking an "evil" road can heal if they want to.

[Sobeq]

I'm going to try to keep this organized. I'm usually not vocal about my opinions because I tend to get disorganized when expressing them, so please bear with me and feel free to point out flaws in my logic, just be gentle please!

I agree with "black" being a silly word to describe harmful magic. It is appropriate, considering the connotations of the colour, and as such is not a racist term -- however we do not live in the same world we used to. Back when folks started using the term black magic, there was enough racism to warrant using the term "black" as a synonym for wicked or sinful. I don't care how historical it is, it can still be used offensively, so I personally prefer to refer to magic as just magic, with "black" magic being harmful magic, also coercive magic. It's like in Huckleberry Finn or the play Big River. The N word is used frequently. Mark Twain was writing in that era, the actors in Big River are depicting a historical (albeit fictional) sequence of events. The fact that they can use it doesn't make it any better to be bantered around in the streets. Same with "black" magic, I don't care that it's historical, I still don't like stereotyping. Not that racism is my biggest problem with "black" magic -- it also perpetuates some of that lingering Hollywood myth.

It also implies that there are two kinds of energy involved. Energy is energy is energy. What you do with it is what counts. I'm pretty sure that's what was in the opening statement.

Okay, moving on from that. What makes it good or bad, harmful or justifiable?

I have no right to say what anyone else can or cannot do. I can express my own morals, but I have no right to force them on anyone else -- I'm not in the proper position of authority.

I must agree with the ends justifying the means -- but the means should also justify the ends... if that makes sense.

Examples: Killing 500 people over 3 days to cure cancer will, as said, lose the trust of alot of people. Killing 500 people over 3 years will make people uneasy, but still more trusting. At any rate, the death toll of cancer is high enough to more than merit the deaths of 500 people. Far more than 500 people will benefit from these deaths.

Killing a rapist and his entire family to avenge your siblings rape and murder will benefit only yourself. You will ultimately bring pain to the family of the rapist and too many other people to justify such a rash act (although who wouldn't want to do that to a rapist, really.)

If you cannot hex, you cannot heal: It merely means you need to have the ability to hex -- healing takes the same amount of strength as hexing, for lack of better words.

Ultimately, magic which is passive usually ends up being "white", helpful magic, and magic which is directly controlling usually ends up being "black", harmful magic. Power corrupts, period, and it is all too easy to use power to control. There is nothing wrong with having a wonderful life, but it's the same as killing someone to get their house. You're taking away their ability to live freely. My stepdad frequently says "your freedom end where another's begins." That's when magic effectively becomes harmful -- when it interferes with someone else's freedom.

Okay. I think I've covered everything. Someone feel free to punch large holes in my logic.

[anomalous]

I see the statement "if you cannot hex, you cannot heal" to mean more than just simply negative/positive. To hex, you must be able to raise energy and direct it at will and to heal is the same principle. If you cannot raise energy to hex, then obviously you can't heal.
Thats what I believe it is anyway. Also, if a person can hex than they can heal, so this person who is walking an "evil" road can heal if they want to.

I was expecting to have a stronger discussion about this particular issue. Let me take the reins for this discussion for a second :)

The discussion on this thread are talking about what is "evil" and "good" and labeling it as simply "IS". Folks on another thread were talking about hexing not so long ago was debating is an evil spell evil if it has a good outcome.. they were debating the "good" and "evil" out of the whole situation.

So instead of discussing the good and the bad and the IS. How about separating the god and the bad and the IS for a second.

I like to model our consciousness similar to that of a sandwich.

The bottom piece of the bread is the animal instincts I.E sexual reproduction and base emotions and of course the home to such things as adrenaline, basic body functions, etc. The top piece is the of bread is spiritual consciousness majestic spirit self the thing that is ageless an all powerful that holds no judgment of good and bad it simply accepts all that is.

The peanut and jelly in the center is our consciousness, it fluctuates the two to build who we are as people... Therefore, good and bad is a animal and base subconscious expression whilst when a person taps into the higher self (spirit self) then that good and bad simply turns into "no judgment" and becomes "IS".

So where does this leave the practicer? and how does it affect the magical outcome.

[~Elise~]

Okay==you will NOT be taking the reins on this discussion.
1) you are not the teacher
2) you are not a student in this class

Do not post anymore in any discussion or lesson in this particular forum until you are a student in this class or you become the teacher.

You are, however, more than welcome to read along. And I'll be happy to talk to you about any questions or point of view that you can add either via email or PM.

Elise
Magical Self Defense Teacher

[~Elise~]

The discussion on this thread are talking about what is "evil" and "good" and labeling it as simply "IS". Folks on another thread were talking about hexing not so long ago was debating is an evil spell evil if it has a good outcome.. they were debating the "good" and "evil" out of the whole situation.

So instead of discussing the good and the bad and the IS. How about separating the god and the bad and the IS for a second.

I like to model our consciousness similar to that of a sandwich.

The bottom piece of the bread is the animal instincts I.E sexual reproduction and base emotions and of course the home to such things as adrenaline, basic body functions, etc. The top piece is the of bread is spiritual consciousness majestic spirit self the thing that is ageless an all powerful that holds no judgment of good and bad it simply accepts all that is.

The peanut and jelly in the center is our consciousness, it fluctuates the two to build who we are as people... Therefore, good and bad is a animal and base subconscious expression whilst when a person taps into the higher self (spirit self) then that good and bad simply turns into "no judgment" and becomes "IS".

So where does this leave the practicer? and how does it affect the magical outcome.

That is a great analogy--one that I have not seen used before. And I do agree-we do float between the layers.

There have been some great comments in this thread that I'm going to address in a few moments.

Great work, folks

Elise

[~Elise~]

The main problem that I have with casting a vengeful spell is my ignorance of the exact circumstances. If I start casting spells on every rapist or murderer on the news, eventually I'm probably going to hit someone who's been wrongly accused or who acted under specific circumstances which lessen the "evil" of their crime. Even if the person is close to me and I watch the "evil" taking place, I don't know what's happening in their head or what other influencing factors have brought them to this moment and these decisions. I simply don't feel it's my place in the universe to be judge, jury and executioner. I don't want to be any of those, actually. We are by nature judgemental, but it's not a good way to live your life, measuring others by harsh standards (often harsher than we measure ourselves). Who am I, in my limited knowledge, to start throwing harm out into the universe? I say leave the biggies to the Gods. :p

But what about the gray area of 'justice spells'? Is a spell which calls for justice a safer option, since you're not creating harm, you're just sending back what a person originally projected? Is it a safeguard against hitting someone falsely accused, since the universe won't deal justice to an innocent person? But of course there's the constant worry that in speeding up karmic retribution, we also draw it more quickly to ourselves (i.e. your hands better be clean before you start asking for the scales to be balanced!)

Exactly-- who are WE to judge? What gives us that right?
Justice spells--justice is blind and carries a two-edged sword. The keys to Justice spells are this: 1) you release all attachment to the outcome. Give it to the Old Ones and do NOT hang onto it. 2) you have no blame or fault in the situation.


I disagree with the term "black magic" being racist in origin. Though I'm sure there could be connections made, but the idea of black or darkness being evil wasn't fundamentally racist. It was how ever, a factor in racism. Black or darkness refers to the fundamental instinctive fear in all humans on a primitive level. In the dark, we are vulnerable, this leads to the instinctive response of fear, which is designed to heighten our scenes and instill a need to find a safe area (light). About 60% of the way humans perceive the world is through sight, which means we are at our most vulnerable in situations without light. But it also means we are at our strongest in well lit areas. This is probably the origin of the concept of Black being evil and White being good.

I, personally, agree with the POV. Keep in mind-you have to have dark to have light. When you pick up a stick - you pick up both ends. You have to be able to handle both equally well.

Darkness is where we rest and recover when we sleep. Darkness is essential for growth of plants, and most life. Darkness is when we cuddle under the covers with our lover, with our selves. It is not a thing to fear.


Good and evil are empty values.

I agree.

As to your example and your question Am I evil? Yes, no and everything in between



Just as it is not my place to judge them, their actions, and their beliefs, it is not their responsibility to judge or 'nanny' me...therefore it is very important that I think on what it is exactly that I personally find ethical and unethical. No one else out there realistically can do this for me, not only do they not ultimately have the right, but they cannot ever really know ME as much as I know myself, so it would be stupid of me to ask them to make decisions such as this for me.

This isn't to say that the input of others is not valuable; it is highly likely that things others may say may trigger a new thought line in my own head, bringing me to a different point that I may never have got to by myself. But it is important that I listen to the arguments made, then make up my own mind.

I personally think that magic cast in ignorance is the least ethical..by that I mean magic cast when someone has not carefully thought, not only about their actions, but the possible consequences of their actions too. I have little patience for those who claim "well I had no idea that would happen" on a regular basis...if a magic has been carefully thought out, most possible scenarios should have crossed the caster's mind, so nothing should be a surprise result. Although I do accept that this is bound to happen from time to time (we are never going to be 100% right all of the time, or see things with perfect clarity 100% of the time), if this happens a lot I would suggest that the caster is using magic immorally or unethically, as they are starting things up which they have paid little time or attention to trying to understand.

I can accept that people may cast things I personally find to be unethical, but if they do so in a clear and thought out way, then ultimately their decision is their decision, and it is not up to me to question that. But magic cast without thought is another thing entirely...this doesn't come from a different understanding of morals or ethics, this comes from a lack of commitment, or a 'toying' with things. Careless magic is to me, the most unethical.

Great post!
In the IRL classes I teach the first and foremost thing a Witch needs to know is Know Thyself. You have to know yourself inside and out. That is not easy to do. We don't like to look in the mirror and define that person looking back at us as anything outside our comfort zone. That is the majority of the beginning training I do with my students.

I dislike dabblers intensely. What do I define as a dabbler? Well, it is my own personal judgement. Do I have that right to judge? Not really--but it is human nature, after all. And we are souls having a human experience.
I don't like careless magic, either and with you, I consider it unethical by MY standards... which are mine and I do realize that.

It is a constant awareness in most of my actions that I try not to let my ego get involved. The post above is an example where I didn't do that well. I reacted first without thinking or researching.


I don’t believe black magick exists, simply because it colors an energy that absorbs all. It is only with our intent can we do anything “harmful”, and even then the energy may not always do want we want. Nonetheless, I will hex/curse someone if all mundane avenues have failed, and they have hurt either my loved ones or myself. Knowing this, I haven’t hexed anybody because the occasion has not arisen.

I do not believe in the three-fold law or the Wiccan rede. I do believe in the physics law “for every action there is an equal, opposite action” and I subscribe to the opinion “if you cannot hex, you cannot heal.” In spite of this, I do judge every situation with hopefully an open, but logical, mind.


You know I have typed almost those EXACT same words in this lesson in the other two rounds.

If you can't not kill cancer cells, then you can't heal someone is a good way to consider this. Also, I agree with something posted later-if you can't raise the energy to hex, you can't raise the energy to heal.

I'm a very good healer and it is how I think of myself first and foremost. Can I hex? With the best of 'em, baby. And have when the situation called for it.



But for me...I think it is also a test to anyone as they start to grow into their talents and energies...a test will come along with that. Yes, I originally have gone back to my teenage roots of what some call new age stuff, magic, divination etc. for help with my health issues...but as I have seen mentioned...maybe I shouldnt do anything in case I'm suppose to learn a MAJOR lesson? Or if I waited a bit anyway, been able to help another even more so, if I was still as I am now!..hmmmm..its hard to believe that anything good can come but, you never take anything for granted either!



Lessons from the Universe=Testing. Amen... it does happen on a daily basis. And if you don't learn that lesson the first time, the lessons keep getting progressively harder. Listen to that ClueX4 the first time.



"Black magic" or "unethical magic," to me, then, is any spiritual or intentional act which is intended to contribute to evil, pain, and hate. Obviously - most people don't think in those terms - but actions which have those effects often follow from greed, revenge, anger, a desire for power or control over others, etc. (Of course, some people are simply psychopathic or sociopathic, but that's something else again.) Often, unethical magic simply is an accident, resulting from thoughtlessness or an incomplete understanding of or examination of the facts of a given situation.

That is the risk we take when we try to influence the world, through magical or through conventional means - we take the risk that what we do will hurt someone else and that the resulting spiritual consequences will be with us. All we can do is try most sincerely to learn all the facts of a situation and understand it as fully as possible before we project our intentions out into the world. Or, in cases where we're trying to affect our own lives, through trying to find money, love, etc... we can try to frame our requests and desires in such a way that we take into account any possible undesirable effects on others. We have to be responsible and considerate. Of course, that's a good idea in general, whether in magical circumstances, or just in day to day life!

good post. Life would not be worth living if there were not risks.

JMO


See these are fun topics and can never gain any ground in one direction or the other because of the one truth I have ever seen…people are weird.

The intention can be a deciding factor if it was evil or good, harmful or beneficial, chaos or order or what ever two sided coin you would like. But so can the perception of it by people other than the one who did it.

I killed a dog to be cruel…..evil, harmful, chaotic
I killed a dog to eat….good, beneficial, order (You could have had a salad…it was evil)

An act or magical doing will almost never end up at the same place with more than one person having an opinion of it.

Ain't it the truth? Truer words haven't been spoken in quite awhile.


I am going to take a macrocosm/microcosm approach to such matters. This is a matter that I have long meditated on since I knew people that would consider themselves on the "left-hand path," by which they mean a darker sort of magic. And after years of knowing these people, I have figured out that really what they are into is controlling magic, as in controlling other people. Mostly these people were interested in gaining power for power's sake

I disagree with part of this. Left hand path, LHP, is NOT 'darker sort of magic'. Those are people, as you state, in it for the power. That is NOT the LHP.
LHP is the path of self transformation, knowing thyself. LHP is that path of becoming as close to your Godself as you can. You do not need to bow down to anyone or any god. You honor the Gods as you honor yourself.

This I know because the path that I follow is considered a LHP.

That's a good start on what I had to say on this discussion.

Elise

[Infinite Grey]

I, personally, agree with the POV. Keep in mind-you have to have dark to have light. When you pick up a stick - you pick up both ends. You have to be able to handle both equally well.

Darkness is where we rest and recover when we sleep. Darkness is essential for growth of plants, and most life. Darkness is when we cuddle under the covers with our lover, with our selves. It is not a thing to fear.



I have no problem is light and dark, white and black. It just annoys me when people try to attribute racism to the terms, it pretty much indicates a spark of latent racism hidden away inside them.

I've no problem with good and evil either, they're the same thing anyway.

[Caitlin.ann]

Yep. Colors are just colors. We're the ones who put the associations and labels on them.

I agree completely.

[Hermgirl]

I killed a dog to be cruel…..evil, harmful, chaotic
I killed a dog to eat….good, beneficial, order (You could have had a salad…it was evil)

An act or magical doing will almost never end up at the same place with more than one person having an opinion of it.

I like what Tarbh Nathroch says here--you know what they say about opinions--everybody has one.

While a lot of this stuff is situational, I try to look at things like: am I doing this just to watch the fur & the feathers fly? Am I doing this so the person will "straighten their shit out" or whatever I'm hoping to achieve?

Do I feel like, in doing something, I will be forcing someone to learn something, or do something that will somehow "make them a better magician" or whatever?

I have heard these kind of ideas from others when they send stuff out to people, and I wonder "Who the hell died and made this person the arbiter of what's right for that other person? And what makes them think that when that thing's done doing its work on the other person, it won't turn back around and do a "shit-straightening job" on them too?"

And usually when it comes back around (as it always does for people who enjoy putting curses on others) the person never seems to make the connection between all the things they may have done to others--whether by magical or regular means--and they always seem to whine the loudest when their lives aren't going the way they want them to.

One of the nice things about being a solitary is that I don't have to hang out with these type of folks if I don't want to.

[atropa]

If you can't not kill cancer cells, then you can't heal someone is a good way to consider this. Also, I agree with something posted later-if you can't raise the energy to hex, you can't raise the energy to heal.

That's a good point. But I think there is a big difference between that and hexing someone to do harm because you somehow feel justified, I myself don't want it on my conscience, and I don't want to reap the cosmic retribution. I have enough coming back to me:) Plus I don't think it's up to me. Self defense is different from straight out hexing, IMO. I will kill someone before they kill me or my family, etc., but not just because I think they deserve it. There have been so many neat points of view on this thread, I am thinking in ways I may not have considered before. Sometimes you don't get that when you're solitary. As far as black and white, nothing is. There are just thousands of shades of gray.

[Amythyst]

I've read the article once, but I have to sit down and read it again. Study on it a bit.

I can say that the term "Black Magic" doesn't bother me in the least. The last thing I think of is a black person. As a matter of fact, I don't think of a black person at all when I think of this phrase. I also don't think of anything "evil".

I think of generations of women bent over their bottles and jars and oils and herbs. I think of wisps of smoke rising languidly from a metal cauldron. I think of dark mysteries and moon filled nights and the wolf's howl and spiders weaving their webs beneath a rosebush. I think of a dark house wafting with the exotic scent of incense and the flickering lights of candles. I think of full moons and half moons and crescent moons gracing the sky for centuries and centuries and centuries.

I have to think on it some more...

[AussiePagan]

I like the idea of magic being indifferent to other forms of energy :boing: We humans can affect the world in a number of ways, but we are the ones who judge the morality of our actions; the gun doesnt tell you don't to kill the annoying child next door, your sense of morals does. So why should magic be any different to any of the other ways we can affect the world.

I don't believe in the law of three, or karma, simply because I haven't had any experiences that would lead me to conclude their existance. I also don't believe Newtons Third Law "For every action is an equal, but opposite reaction" applies to magic, since it is a mathematical modelled used for describing the actions of Physical bodies under Physical force. Newton wasn't investigating magical forces when he came up with his laws, and newtons Third Law breaks when we start talking about really, really small things. So its not even a universal rule when dealing with the physical.

[Amythyst]

Black Magic?...

It is something indescribably beautiful and deliciously dark and primitive; a living thing, rolling and churning just beneath the surface of everyday life. I can feel its ancient force and its sensuality-- so intense its almost painful. And I can feel its irresistable pull-- as though it were my birth right. It is a seed inside of me.

It just is...It's not something I can analyze, it's a part of me.

[Pandy Fackler]

I'm glad someone finally said it. Maybe it's just me, but I've been reading in a lot of places lately that there are, in fact, "good" and "bad" caches of magic stored in the universe. How ridiculous.
I don't like calling it 'black' magic because I don't believe it exists. That's like saying a dog with an abusive owner was born a killer.

To add to the part you said about being angry and directing that anger toward someone/something: I believe that you can use your emotions (no matter which ones) as fuel for good, protective spells. In Zen Buddhism, some meditations are fueled purely on the person's emotions. I believe magic can be done the same way.


Even though I don't believe that asking for better housing, grade, etc is a bad thing....people also have to be aware that they might get more than what they ask for.
Also, I think a lot of people get into the "Gimmie" mentality. When I was in catholic school, that was how we were taught to ask god for something...was to just say, "Give me good grades." Now I realize just how dangerous that was, mostly because we were so little and didn't think of the consequences :P But also, it's saying that we want things without working for them. You can't ask for good grades, not study for the test, and then sit there and blame god.

That's my two cents!

[Jenne]

Seems to me, in rounding out the discussion, since I'm coming in on it so tardily (sorry sorry!), that there are some fundamentals at hand here:

1) The belief that some magicks are fundamentally "good" or "bad," depending on their intent, hence the words "white" or "black" in describing them. Some believe this a misplaced notion, as the magick is only as good or bad as its intent and/or outcome, or the user him/herself. Some agree that you must have the light with the dark, as in nature, and therefore we have balance.

2) Who is to judge the light vs. dark, white vs. black? The individual beholder? The practitioner only? Those abused? Those who have gained? Is it the social makeup and cultural biases that predetermine these judgments, or is it organic, wrought by the environment and experietial data?

3) What is necessary, fundamentally, in practicing magicks? An understanding of the two points above? Direct familiarity? Study, knowledge and forethought? Or a natural ability to detect karmic forces? An inner sense that directs you to your course...feeding the focus of your intent...?

4) How has this effected your worldview of how humans interact? Is magick just a blank energy field that is pushed/pulled/manipulated into its course, or is it part of the human experience that needs to be harnessed and skillfully managed with the best of intentions and utmost of ability?

All I know is, we are each a part of our environment, as well as a manifestation thereof. We each of us are also made of the same essential elements and compounds. Where our differences and similarities meet is where we decide the answers to the above. I believe most of us in this thread would agree more than we would disagree. This is partly because we are all already part of a cohort. :)

[Infinite Grey]

I just realized I haven't really touched on the article its self... so here goes.

In my honest opinion I think its a fallacy. I've tried to read it three times now, I get to a certain point and can't bring myself to finish it. "Oh no! he's dissing the article!" Just remember this is my opinion, and I'm applying it to my belief system... also I'm not really big on subtle bashing of any religion, and in this case, as it is in a lot of pagan articles, the Aramaic religions cop it here.

Anyway, the first fallacy I've already addressed in a previous post (post #6 (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2643274&postcount=6)), and now for the second fallacy. There is such a thing as "black" or "evil" magic. Now before people start flinging the fluff labels at me, let me be clear that I do not mean this in the way you probably think.

Within the mundane world we have tools and skills to which could be attributed the title "evil" if we use the common theological definition, mean that evil is an act or intention that results in harm, death, destruction. For example, take your standard hand gun. It was designed and built for one purpose, to kill or harm. That is its nature, there is no escaping it. Hand guns are a weapon, tool of death and injury. By the theological definition of evil, a hand guns base nature is evil. This does not mean it will be used to perform acts of evil intention, even though the result of its use is evil. A policeman that shoots a violent suspect in self defense was not acting with evil intent, even if the resulting harm and/or death would be evil. (sort of the whole thing about Buddhist passivism).

Magic is no different. Some spells, rituals, hexes are designed with an evil nature. To kill, harm, destroy, enslave, confuse, these are all evil results of a tool with an evil nature. The intentions of the caster do not even apply, they can not change the functional nature of the spell anymore than a soldier can change the functional nature a hand gun. They are what they are. Morality, ethics, intentions do not effect the functional nature, but this is where the individual takes responsibility, as the tool can not.

There is no escaping the functional nature of things, they're tool. But one must choose how and why they would use such a tool. This is where ethics and morality come into play, the eventual result of using an evil tool with an evil effect to perform a positive (good) eventual consequence. The most common argument I've seen is "if hex a child molester and he/she died, am I evil?" This falls into an interesting moral dilemma, because; 1>Yes the hex was evil. 2>the resulting death was evil. 3> But the eventual consequence was that the child molester could never again harm another child. Hence the moral dilemma. Objective assessment would suggest that the eventual positive consequence outweighs the impact of the evil action and result. Or in other words, the result justifies the means. This of cause has many flaws, particularly in the realms of rights. Why is it your right to take that action? What of other people that do not meet your moral standards? Naturally this is a topic of another thread.

The myth surrounding "black" magic is the belief that it somehow stains you, or makes you evil for the use of it. This isn't true, anymore than it is true that a soldier is evil for fighting in a war, or in a less extreme case, a Mining engineer using high explosives to clear a mine shaft. "Black" magic, just like "Destructive" tools are only really evil by circumstance, there eventual consequence is based entirely on the individual's moral ethics.

There are four main stages to determining the general nature of an event involving a tool.
The functional nature of a tool, skill, concept (for example a hammer; A hand tool consisting of a handle with a head of metal or other heavy rigid material that is attached at a right angle, used for striking or pounding).
The action of the tool, or how it is used (using a hammer to insert nails into a wall, or to use it to smash a vase).
The direct result of that action (nail is in the wall, or the vase is in pieces).
The eventual consequences of that action (The wall remain erect, or the vase remains broken).

The fifth and not always relevant stage is the user's intention. This stage
can not effect the functional nature of a tool, though the action taken with the tool can be contray to the functional nature. I.e. using a nerf ball to choke someone to death. Or using the handle of a hand gun to hammer a nail. But the functional nature of the tool remains the same regardless.

There is a lot more to this concept that I haven't even began to touch one, but the purpose of this post is to illustrate the exgistence of "black" magic under the deffinition of evil being an event or nature that results in destruction, harm or death (and a few other negative instances), not a lecture section for me to rant on about my understanding of morality and the nature of the universe. That and I'm not the best of writers.

Thanks for reading

[Pandy Fackler]

Well said, Peacock. I was trying to form those same words, myself...I just couldn't figure out how at the moment :p


What I kept rememebering while reading this article is some research I did on Satanism. It touched on the same ideas of "good" and "evil". Basically, those abstract ideas are determined by an individual. If not, they are at least pushed upon an individual by society/religion/parents/etc. So, say, going with the example of Satanism: the Christian religion says Satanism is "evil", then that makes Christianity "good".

I think the same goes for magic except...I can't think of such a black and white (har har!) example. Hmm...okay, if someone thinks an attraction spell is "evil" then any spell derived only to 'change' the caster is "good". (Like I said, not such a good example)


So, depending on which individual you ask, you're always going to get a different answer as to what's what.

[innocent]

I totally agree, all magick is "grey" its just how we use it and what our own personal beliefs are that make it "wrong" or "right".

[~Elise~]

Ya know--there ARE parts of the article that I don't agree with either, but that doesn't take way from the essence of the lesson which is that black and white, good evil, yadda yadda are values that we as a society apply.

That is what I wanted to bring up and make clear.

If you want, guys, I can post the next lesson OR we can continue this over the weekend, your call.

Elise

[Sage WindMoon]

I agree with the premise that there is no such thing as black or white magic. Magic is neutral - it's a tool we use to accomplish a goal. Just as electricity can be used to power a life-support machine or an electric chair, magic can be used to heal and protect or to damage and harm.

Regarding the statement "you must be able to hex in order to be able to heal" and suchlike - this mostly seems to be used by people who are trying to rationalize the hexing they do. I mean, who ever says "you must be able to heal in order to hex"? If it's just another way of saying you have to be able to raise energy for both hexing and healing, why not just say "you have to be able to raise energy to heal"?

If you can raise the energy, you can certainly heal - there is no need to do any hexing unless hexing is what you really want to do. No need to excuse it by saying it's the flip side of healing - just be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

[CelticMoon11]

Next lesson please :)

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I agree with the premise that there is no such thing as black or white magic. Magic is neutral - it's a tool we use to accomplish a goal. Just as electricity can be used to power a life-support machine or an electric chair, magic can be used to heal and protect or to damage and harm.

Regarding the statement "you must be able to hex in order to be able to heal" and suchlike - this mostly seems to be used by people who are trying to rationalize the hexing they do. I mean, who ever says "you must be able to heal in order to hex"? If it's just another way of saying you have to be able to raise energy for both hexing and healing, why not just say "you have to be able to raise energy to heal"?

If you can raise the energy, you can certainly heal - there is no need to do any hexing unless hexing is what you really want to do. No need to excuse it by saying it's the flip side of healing - just be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

I didn't interpret it so much as you have to be able to hex to heal, but that you have to be able to raise the energy in order to do both. A witch who can't raise the energy to hex or heal can't do either.

I think that with most things, there has to be a middle ground. Magic isn't ethical or unethical, it's just a tool. You do good with it, you do bad with it, and where the chips fall is up to your gods and your personal beliefs.

I don't think you can go around hexing everyone all of the time for the heck of it (which I would deem as unethical), but neither can you go around being a doormat to violence and destruction (which I would view as equally unethical). Can you turn all negative instances into positive situations for personal empowerment? No, but I don't think that the article argues that either. In fact, the article sidesteps this instance because it doesn't feel like you should think about how you would react in "unrealistic situations." However, I think that those "unrealistic situations" where I would think about "baneful magic" would happen more often then people like to think (i.e. rape, child abuse, domestic violence, etc...).

On the whole, I liked the article, but I found it to be contradictory. On one hand, it's arguing that black and white are terms which are socially specific and depend on a person's perspective, but on the other hand, it argues that people don't need to use unethical practices because it blocks the channel to the Divine. Well, if ethics and a person's religious beliefs are determined by perception, then wouldn't it be up to the person to determine if what they were doing is right or wrong? Connecting or blocking?

They are still using their moral beliefs derived from their ethical and social background to tell people what they should and shouldn't do with magic. I don't feel like you advocate cultural relativism on some things, and then argue that your way is the right way.

[Kmartin60]

:wave: Is one of those type that you can argue both sides and all 4 corners and still be right! :hahugh: I agree with Celticmoon, can we do next lesson? :awilly: Kim

[Pandy Fackler]

Agreed. Beating a (nearly) dead horse. Next!

[Infinite Grey]

yeah... next topic please :lol:

[Hermgirl]

I vote for next lesson!:fpeace:

[~Elise~]

k--Kmartin is right. I know that I could argue all the sides presented.

Great discussion, guys. One of the best that's been had while I've been teaching this class.

Next lesson going up!

Elise

[slntmom]

i dont know what i think about the term black magick i mean somethings that are black are good i mean some of the very things that save our lives comes from growing in the dark without penicillin and other medicine that comes from mold and where does mold grow in warm Dark Moist places. so black dark or what ever does not always mean bad it can sometimes be good. in my spells or before i do any spell i make sure my intentions are always good, that they wont bring harm to anyone and i am not messing with anyones free will and if those things are good than i am ok. and another thing i never do any spells while i am angry.