Christian Witchcraft and paganism not so much Wiccan

[lady_fey]

Ok after reading Davids thread on the matter of Christians and pagans and after replying, I found myself wondering some things.
I have been sorting through this section a bit, and have not come across this particularly.

When I think of Christianity, and I go back to my own studies of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus I don't see room for paganism.
That being said I am not trying to say there is no room for a pagan to hold to the teachings of Jesus as expressed in the Gospels that are accepted in what is considered the Holy Bible.

I personally go back often to the teachings of Jesus and for a time struggled with the idea of what to do with those teachings and how to continue to apply them in my life and how to continue to apply the teachings in the NT most specifically as well.

So I suppose my question would be more specifically to those who consider themselves primarily Christian but have found some sort of, I suppose, balance with the other side of it all in paganism or witchcraft.

How is the term Christian applied? How do you apply the teachings of the Bible in your life in a world that can be quite hostile to the world of pagans and witches?
I am genuninely curious about this!!!!
In fact could use some good advice, as there is much of what traditional Christianity offers that has no interest to me, but my own interpretatations of the bible and the teachings that are offered still linger.
How does one fit in to a church that does not want them there?

ps
I am still quite interested in the CC.

Lady Fey
*edited to add
in fact if there are any RC's on the board is there a chance you could pm me as I could really, really use a little advice.
Thx

[Bliss]

It sounds like you are struggling with the ideas of theology versus spirituality. It is perfectly fine to embrace various aspects of traditional Christian teachings and attend service as well if you feel it benefits you spiritually. However, what you implement in your personal odyssey will usually comprise a little of this, that, and other things too.

For instance, meditation may be something you find great enjoyment in. There's no hard edge rule that you must follow the western philosophy on the subject. You may find yourself drawn to the Buddhist methods or even the Hindu ones. The important thing that you must keep in mind is that you need to discover your own truth. No two persons will feel or desire the same things.

I was raised Catholic and have found my path winding down many different alley's. In a sense I have come full circle and returned to Christianity via the Ceremonial path. Yet there are aspects of Paganism that remain, and other jewels I've gained along my journey. While I do not attend church at present if I did it would probably be Episcopal. Go figure. *l*

I wish you the best of luck on your search. If you ever have questions or simply want someone to bounce ideas and thoughts off of, please feel free to contact me.

Peace and Blessings,

~Bliss

:flowers:

[Faeawyn]

For me, I still retain some of my Christian beliefs, but I'm a witch as well. First off, I don't believe the bible to be absolute fact, but rather a collection of stories compiled by men and voted upon by men to create what we now know as the bible. I do think Jesus was the son of God...but then I think of all of us as children of God as well. I think that Jesus, Buddha, Alla...all those thought to be "sons of God" were the same spirit simply returning to different parts of the world to try to teach humanity how to be human (I have no idea what happened to the Muslims, but I think some of them got confused).
I believe that there is a universal energy (God force) that connects all living things to each other and that tapping into and manipulating this universal energy is what is now referred to as "magick". So I basically love to research different religions, find their similarities and take bits and pieces that feel right to me....Christianity, Buddhism and Paganism are my favorites thus far. I'd be happy to answer any further questions, but these are my basic beliefs.

[lady_fey]

Bliss and Faewyn:
WOW!
What you both said was so good to read.
I have often felt a struggle between what is accepted as Christianity and what I perceive it to be. What I think the words of Jesus meant and what others have thought it to mean often, but not always differ.
I am trying to let myself just go with it, rather then force the thoughts into one box. I think it's a struggle, because an entire life of labels and differentiating between religious groups, has left me with a persistent idea that that is how life works, how religion works etc.
Faewyn what you said could almost be a word for word email that I sent a good friend some months back. She thought I was a little nutty, but hey, that's ok. She's a christian with very different views about life and death and those views do not fit into traditional chritianity.
I really appreaciate you two taking the time out to share these thoughts with me.
Thanks!!!!
Lady Fey
:elf:

[Ninjakitten]

In a way, you could say that taking the Bible as the literal and only authority on God and Jesus as putting them into a box. There are things within the Bible I flat out know are not true, so I can't say it is inerrant. As such, I don't take it as the only authority on God and Jesus, but instead read the Bible and other works prayerfully and actually ask them what they want me to learn from the things I am exposed to. I guess it helps that I have the gift of Prophecy, so God actually tells me things sometimes. Most recently, He has told me that I am where He wants me in my relationship with the Divine at the moment (I am a Christian and a witch). Wouldn't answer me on the Goddess question, though, but even the Bible speaks of a feminine aspect of God called Sophia and/or Wisdom in Proverbs. It personifies Her way too much to be considered a metaphor, but in many Bibles, the translation becomes wisdom with a lower cased "w". Many others, She's actually called Sophia, and in others still She is called Wisdom (upper case "W").

I also have been reading into books that are in the Apocrypha, especially the Wisdom of Solomon, where there is further detail on the personified Wisdom, even including that God created everything through Her and that She is a consort He created for Himself (yet seems to be somewhat equal to him... I need to read about it further because I'm kind of confused about their relationship). Mind you, one of the reasons the Apocrypha wasn't included in the Bible was because it was too Hellenistic for the Council of Nicene (ie. "too Pagan"). They were just as original of early Christian texts as any other books that were included in the Bible, though. The only books that can technically have any credibility as to the authors are many of the ones written by Paul (except the Timothys which I heard somewhere that scholars say they were forgaries), because they were letters written by his scribes. Too bad Paul never actually met Jesus. Much of what he says does seem to be "Spirit-inspired" (for example, when he's talking about the Spiritual Gifts), but some of it still reflects his past Pharasee tendencies (like you sneeze in the wrong way and you are as bad as a murderer... yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit).

What I don't see is the possibility for inclusion of any other gods or goddesses in Christian worship, except MAYBE some of the ones that were worshipped by the ancient Hebrews (except Baal) before the Yahwehists massacred their worshippers.

[lady_fey]

Hi Ninjakitten,
I have read a little bit on a few gnostic sites about Sophia and the gnostic writings.

I have found that there are teachings in the Bible that I find are universal.
After doing some background research on how the Bible came to be, I guess I wonder if it's possible to look at the gospel accounts, for instance, and find a meaning in there that may or may not have been intended by the gospel writer.

On another thread I just went into some detail on some of the sayings of Jesus.

If I take those writings or those words by themselves and I use either my own intuition or what I think is a spiritual guide to understand them, I guess I just don't see things quite the same way that other traditional Christian's do.
And wonder if I'm taking things far out of context to the point that it isn't fair to even put the word Christian in my description of myself.

For example: I have a few gay friends that I love dearly. One of them believes in Jesus Christ and would flat out say that he believes in him. Despite the fact that the NT has a thing or two to say about his lifestyle. I thought that this was wonderful that he can overlook what other people believe and think and choose to believe whatever it is he chooses to believe.

So, I guess anything is possible. We can really do and believe anything we want. If I choose to accept parts of the Bible and not all of it, how is that defendable and/or should I even care?

I feel like an absolute nitwit asking these questions. I guess because at 31 years old I should understand by now that (as I just told someone else) spirituality is a personal thing.
But putting it into action in this area is tough because as Bliss said it's a matter of theology vs spirituality.

Like how do I love the teachings of Jesus, yet at the same time reconcile that his teachings are the same ones that are used to teach some pretty harsh things? When my opinion as to what he meant is not the same as what others think, and oy, should I care?



Sorry to be a pest
Lady Fey
:elf:

[zionwood]

As far as Christianity is concerned, I tend to be more conservative theologically (though not extremist) and it took a while to convince me about magic and such things, but what really made me question many Christians' notion that "all magic, astrology, etc. is evil" was the Magi, the wise men that visited Jesus when he was a child. I mean, aren't they portrayed as "good guys," and how did they know that particular star meant "the king of the Jews is born"? And many interpreters say the gift of gold was to acknowledge Christ's kingship, the gift of frankincense was to acknoweldge his divinity, and the gift of myrrh was to acknowledge the importance of his death...which is neat, but how would they know that from stars? The logical conclusion would be that, hm, maybe there is something to some part of astrology, inasmuch as the heavenly bodies could be "signs" (which is right there in Genesis 1, come to think of it). Plus, the word "Magi" and the word "magic" are very much related, so surely not all magic is bad...?
Now that i'm a seeker on a Christian witch path, i'm more open-minded than i was before.
As for Jesus' teachings, well, yes, some of them do seem a bit harsh, but i think those were mostly warnings, not saying that there's no forgiveness. (but maybe that's not what you meant?)
sorry i gtg

sorry to go off-topic

[Ninjakitten]

There is an idea by some that believe in the Christian Feminine Divine that Jesus was actually the incarnation of the Sophia. Can't say more than that because I really don't know the details of why they believe that, but I personally believe taht he was a representation of the full Divine by the authority the Divine gave him, not that he was a literal incarnation of the Divine.

You could pretty much reason, where the Bible is concerned, that flawed humans put it together and put down their personal accounts of what they know, which tends to be flawed. No human, no matter how spirit inspired, can always follow or know the will of Godde. Even Jesus, with his Divine authority didn't know (otherwise he wouldn't have asked God to "pass the cup from his hands" involving his mission or asked God "why have you forsaken me" on the cross). This is why I pray and ask Godde prayerfully what He/She wants me to know from everything I read, much of which tends to be confirmed and spoken about in the Bible. The Bible is not inerrant, otherwise it would be impossible for anyone "spirit-filled" or that is a follwer of Jesus to get things so wrong or even so different from another Jesus follower, much less have so many different interpretations of different important things, like what is talked about when the words "homosexual" and "witch" are used.