The Hindu afterlife

[David19]

I think there are a few Hindu's here or at least people who worship the Hindu gods, but i was hoping some people may be able to help me here.

What's the Hindu afterlife like?, i know that it includes reincarnation, but i was just listening to Peter Paddon's Podcast's (http://www.crookedpath.org/show.html), it was episode 24, about death and fate. He talks about the Hindu concept of reincarnation which is different to the modern, Western one, and that instead of people coming back as individuals, people are literally recycled e.g. bits and pieces of people are used to make a new person, i think, but is this true, and is there more to it than that.

He does say that this is a difficult concept for most Westerner's to accept as we like our individuality, and i agree with that as i know it's not really my favourite afterlife 'option', as i want to remain individual (not sure if that makes me 'unenlightened' or not 'developed' yet), does the Hindu concept allow for the concept of individual realms (like a multiverse, at least in spiritual terms), e.g. like different afterlifes for people, depending on their religion, beliefs, etc (like Hades, Valhalla, Heaven, etc all being seperate places), or does everyone get reincarnated, no matter what.

It may be just me, but it kind of confuses me, as there are so many afterlife beliefs, and some people, when speaking of personal experiences of the afterlife(s), make it seem like there are different realms for people, depending on what religion they follow.

Any help in helping me understand this, would be great, as even though i'm not Hindu or even worship the Hindu deities, i do find Hinduism and Hindu concepts interesting.

Also, i hope this made some sense.

Thanks for any help you can give me :).

[Toby Stimpson]

Interesting question. The Hindu concepts of the afterlife is well, very big. There are many forms, and in reality one cannot say that none of these are not correct.

Theres the more popular idea of reincarnation, which spans most of the religious traditions of the Dharma, is not at all like this gentleman claims to be. The eastern form of reincarnation, which the western form derived and mutated from is that we hold within us all a part of the Divine called an atman, basicly a soul...except its not created by a God, it is God. This part of us, which lies deep underneath our egos moves on to the next body...taking with it our ego. Now when death happens, theres a whole bunch of myths to explain rituals but basicly in the idea of reincarnation...you are burned upon a funeral pyre (and this is why Hindus cemate, besides the obvious idea about land usage) the body burns with the sacred flame of the god Agni, which burns away the flesh and releases the atman+ego to heaven. In this idea, the atman, wearing the mask of the ego is judged by the God Yama, lord of the udnerworld, and is thus either reincarnated as punishment, or achieves liberation and Moksha.

In alternative views, which can be traced back to Brahmanism, and even earlier to the Vedic religion...is that every God has his or her own heavenly city. In the Vedic religion, the highest goal was to please the Gods, and then you might ascend to live in a paradise in the heaven of Indra, King of the Gods. Later, Indra's throne was replaced in importance by that of Brahma. In modern Hinduism, there are those who believe that liberation eqauls a paradise like afterlife, and depending upon your God...it will be his or her heaven you ascend to. The most popular being Krishna's. Now in the Vedeic religion, the myth was that a funerary pyre was required to burn away any unclean things from the body before ascending into the afterlife...and so the body was burned to ashes, the ashes being seen as impure parts. This is where the tradition of throwing the ashes into a sacred river or stream such as the Ganges came about, becasue they were seen as pure places that could purify the deceased's remains....ensuring a safe ascension to their God's heaven. This has carried on to this day.

One of the more important beings when it coesm to the older ideas surrounding death is Yama, the first man and subsequently only God to fully die. There will be a lot of interesting contradictions in the mythology, partly becasue of the struggle to bring him into the reincarnation idea. originally he was said to have travelled to the lands of the south, and thus enter into the realm of death....becoming it's Lord and Master. Originally he was seen as a Judge who rided around on a terrible Bull...with eyes aflame and a terrible noose to drag the dead souls to his kinggdom for judgement. Now, he is less a figure representing the afterlife and more a judge or Karma. He is also representing the southern Lokal point on the compas....ironicly thouigh, and this is the major contraditction...unlike other Gods who have seemingly said to have died...he was never reincarnated. Krishna and Ram all ascended and rejoined with Vishnu...Kama was reborn as a Human and then as an immortal...and newer deities like Santoshi just become Gods again after death. Yama never did this. One possible theory is again the inability to bring him back into the theology, partly with out maximizing his popularity. other theories and traditions hold him as an avatar of Shiva.

In Sikh Tradition...and Punjabi hindu traditions inspired by the monotheistic qaulities of Sikhism, there is a legend that says the reason that hair should be uncut is that Wahiguru grabs onto the dead person's hair and pulls him or her up to Heaven. But then again...a majority of Sikhs strongly believe in reincarnation.

There are also the tribal religions...vaguely connected to Hinduism which have their own ideas about the afterlife and their own Gods.

[David19]

Thanks for that, it really helped :).

So, if i'm understanding it right, does it mean, depending on what god you follow, you go to their city (or realm)?, and does reincarnation come into play there at all (and what's it like, as the podcasts say in Hinduism, people go into a big 'cosmic soup' and get mixed together and new individuals come out).

But thanks again :).

[Toby Stimpson]

So, if i'm understanding it right, does it mean, depending on what god you follow, you go to their city (or realm)?, and does reincarnation come into play there at all (and what's it like, as the podcasts say in Hinduism, people go into a big 'cosmic soup' and get mixed together and new individuals come out).

Youre welcome Dave...to be honest Its not soemthing I generally think about. The truth of the matter is there is soo many traditions udner the banner of Hinduism that there are many ways to view death, each one completly right ina way.

Now if I udnerstand youre question...you mean if things are taken completly literally right? Now, some worshippers do take things very literilly, that is to ginore the Brahman concept found in many traditions, to accept each Deity as seperate individuals...in which case depending upon if your tradition is more or less derived from ancient sources or if it came about when Brahmanism (The belief that all Gods are manifestations of Brahman, the underlying flow or web that we might call the circle of life/God) became prominent, you will either see yourself going to a Paradise for a time and being reborn, staying in this paradise city of your God, or just simply becoming part of Brahman after a while. You see, as I said there are many, but how about this: personally I dont see myself after death going to the relam of Lord Shiva, becasue it is partly metaphor and partly reality...I see myself more or less being judged by something and then going on into my next reincarnation. Others believe that for a time you are punished in a hell by Yama for Karkic deeds before then going onto your next incarnation. Others still believe (and this is a more widespread view of Karma) that your reincarnatiomn is determined by your karma and thus the next life will be good or bad depending upon past actions. The only way to better one's life next life is to act kindly and goodly in your life right now. Now, when one believes that they are approaching the point of moksha, they will be incarnated and be naturally good in their life...and soemtiems will be closer to spirituality and to God.

In the Bhakti traditions, which tend to be more or less monotheistic worship of ONE God as the Ultimate, such as the Hare krishna movement, the idea is that Karmik deeds can be forefeited and resolved by purifying your love for God. Some traditions believe that you will reincarnate and have to bring out that love again and then finally realize Moksha...or others believe that from tiem time between Lives you will dwell in the Heavenly abode of that deity.

In hardline Brahmanical sects, there is an almost atheistic qaulity...and the focus is taken off God (becasue they view him as so remote) and more ona ctions...similar to Therevada Buddhism. All in all, it really does depend. Now the mainstream view in Hinduism and that is common amongts most traditions is this: your dharma is set when you are born, yourdharma is set partly by your last life's karma...and your karma determines how close you are to self liberation or Moksha. This is accepted in most circles. As to the metaphysical or metaphorical qaulities of what is in the afterlife...its very important to rememebr that reincarnation was not origianlly a Hindu concept, and was developed over time. And it really is important to note that pluralism in the theology of 'Hinduism' is very important and all of these concepts and mythological ideas about the afterlife and the realm of the Gods are both real and not real...on differing levels...but one truth exists is that they all exist.

Now as for the podcast question...this isnt true. The Ego is basicly the accumulated personality of a person in one life. The Atman is the soul...and the ego is a kind of mask that the Atman doesnt know it's wearing. The ego is like is aid the eprsonality...the illusion of I. So who you are now David is a mask...that your Atman wears. When the Atman goes onto a next life, he puts a different mask on, BUT kind of carries along with him all of his masks from all of his other lives. I think it could be said to be true that when the Atman insdie of us rejoins Brahman, Brahman then regujitates more parts of hismelf to keep a cycle of life going. So, in soemw ays...its kind of like pouring glasses of water into each other and then repouring them out again...youre bound to get mixed molecules. This is kind of like how Brahman is said to work...but by that point individual Atmans cease and the new souls that coem out are not 'parts of different people' becasue the individual souls that Brahman absorbed when they reached moksha cease to be individuals...thats the whole point. So in thatw ay if he is talking about that...hes completly got the wrong idea!

Namaste

Tobias

[David19]

Youre welcome Dave...to be honest Its not soemthing I generally think about. The truth of the matter is there is soo many traditions udner the banner of Hinduism that there are many ways to view death, each one completly right ina way.

Now if I udnerstand youre question...you mean if things are taken completly literally right? Now, some worshippers do take things very literilly, that is to ginore the Brahman concept found in many traditions, to accept each Deity as seperate individuals...in which case depending upon if your tradition is more or less derived from ancient sources or if it came about when Brahmanism (The belief that all Gods are manifestations of Brahman, the underlying flow or web that we might call the circle of life/God) became prominent, you will either see yourself going to a Paradise for a time and being reborn, staying in this paradise city of your God, or just simply becoming part of Brahman after a while. You see, as I said there are many, but how about this: personally I dont see myself after death going to the relam of Lord Shiva, becasue it is partly metaphor and partly reality...I see myself more or less being judged by something and then going on into my next reincarnation. Others believe that for a time you are punished in a hell by Yama for Karkic deeds before then going onto your next incarnation. Others still believe (and this is a more widespread view of Karma) that your reincarnatiomn is determined by your karma and thus the next life will be good or bad depending upon past actions. The only way to better one's life next life is to act kindly and goodly in your life right now. Now, when one believes that they are approaching the point of moksha, they will be incarnated and be naturally good in their life...and soemtiems will be closer to spirituality and to God.

In the Bhakti traditions, which tend to be more or less monotheistic worship of ONE God as the Ultimate, such as the Hare krishna movement, the idea is that Karmik deeds can be forefeited and resolved by purifying your love for God. Some traditions believe that you will reincarnate and have to bring out that love again and then finally realize Moksha...or others believe that from tiem time between Lives you will dwell in the Heavenly abode of that deity.

In hardline Brahmanical sects, there is an almost atheistic qaulity...and the focus is taken off God (becasue they view him as so remote) and more ona ctions...similar to Therevada Buddhism. All in all, it really does depend. Now the mainstream view in Hinduism and that is common amongts most traditions is this: your dharma is set when you are born, yourdharma is set partly by your last life's karma...and your karma determines how close you are to self liberation or Moksha. This is accepted in most circles. As to the metaphysical or metaphorical qaulities of what is in the afterlife...its very important to rememebr that reincarnation was not origianlly a Hindu concept, and was developed over time. And it really is important to note that pluralism in the theology of 'Hinduism' is very important and all of these concepts and mythological ideas about the afterlife and the realm of the Gods are both real and not real...on differing levels...but one truth exists is that they all exist.

Now as for the podcast question...this isnt true. The Ego is basicly the accumulated personality of a person in one life. The Atman is the soul...and the ego is a kind of mask that the Atman doesnt know it's wearing. The ego is like is aid the eprsonality...the illusion of I. So who you are now David is a mask...that your Atman wears. When the Atman goes onto a next life, he puts a different mask on, BUT kind of carries along with him all of his masks from all of his other lives. I think it could be said to be true that when the Atman insdie of us rejoins Brahman, Brahman then regujitates more parts of hismelf to keep a cycle of life going. So, in soemw ays...its kind of like pouring glasses of water into each other and then repouring them out again...youre bound to get mixed molecules. This is kind of like how Brahman is said to work...but by that point individual Atmans cease and the new souls that coem out are not 'parts of different people' becasue the individual souls that Brahman absorbed when they reached moksha cease to be individuals...thats the whole point. So in thatw ay if he is talking about that...hes completly got the wrong idea!

Namaste

Tobias

Thanks again :), i think i'm getting it a bit more now.

So, would it be when i die, and if i reincarnate, i take 'off my mask' and put a new one on, but i still have all my previous 'masks' with me (like would my personality be the same or would i be completly different in different lives, e.g. like in one life would i be incredibly shy, the next one, i'm the most boldest, 'in your face' kind of guy, etc or am i completly wrong?).

Or would my destination in the afterlife depend on my beliefs (e.g. what religion or not i had, what god i followed, etc)?.

Sorry if this seems like a lot of questions or if i'm repeating it, it's just i'd kind of like to know (partly just for my own knowledge but partly 'cause, i don't really like the idea of losing my individuality when i die, although that's probably just me, Lol!).

Thanks again for the help and any other help you can provide :).

[Toby Stimpson]

LOL you're welcome! I just hope somebody else posts because I wouldnt want you to get only one perspective!




So, would it be when i die, and if i reincarnate, i take 'off my mask' and put a new one on, but i still have all my previous 'masks' with me (like would my personality be the same or would i be completly different in different lives, e.g. like in one life would i be incredibly shy, the next one, i'm the most boldest, 'in your face' kind of guy, etc or am i completly wrong?).

Well, that Im afraid coems down the nature/nurture debate of modern psychology. One religious perspective might be that as you die, and your karma is weighed...then you're next life is determined as to what your soul needs to grow and learn, and also what a suitable punishment might be for lifes misdeeds. So...you might be born into a poor family if you previously lived in a very rich family and abused that power. Now whetehr or not you are bold or shy, it honestly is one of those unanswerable questions. Personally from my psychology courses and what I have experianced...I think its half and half...what you're predisposed to at Birth and perhaps might bring from another life...but also what you are conditioned to in early childhood. If you experiance trauma in early childhood, thats going to affect your personality. But also you have to look at it in this way: babies are born with a personality, and if you look you can see the brash ones from the shy ones. There are stories that Tibetan lamas who are reincarnated and then recognized as children exhibit common traits, like Lama Yeshe. He was a very happy joyous person, and his so called recognized incarnation also exhibited those signs. So it's one of those things that you have to develop an idea about on your own, as its to do with psychology. There might also be the perspectiove that...depending on the lessons deemed capable of learning ina specific type of life, then that may also require a shy personality or a in your face personality....in which case yes it does go along with it. haha...so, I should be asking you what do you think?



Or would my destination in the afterlife depend on my beliefs (e.g. what religion or not i had, what god i followed, etc)?.

I dont think so...in some ways yes. Theres an idea floating about that souls who worship certain gods in certain lives will stay with that God, kind of like a group of souls travelling together. And that when you die, before you reincarnate you dwell in the abode of your God to become their students. But generallky, and this is just me...but the afterlife is one of those mysterious places that may be seemingly unending and whose to say that we go to exclusivly one place if we follow certain beliefs you know.



Sorry if this seems like a lot of questions or if i'm repeating it, it's just i'd kind of like to know (partly just for my own knowledge but partly 'cause, i don't really like the idea of losing my individuality when i die, although that's probably just me, Lol!).


LOL...well right there you have comnpletly shown the concept of the ego at work. If you fear losing yourself in death, then youre ego is still alive and kicking. But, Nirvana/Moksha is not just achieved in death...it can be achieved in Life....they call this sudden enlightenment. Souls that have become part of god yet are partly trapped in a body to teach. This is what soem people believe certain Gurus are...half God half human. Kind of like the Bodhisattva ideal but forced. If for example you never think about yourself, your wants, your wishes and only focus on the world outside you...in some ways you have become God because!!!!!!!!!!! you no longer have to deal with an internal struggle of 'ego vs. the atman' if that amkes sense. But then again...when you die you reclaim all parts of yourself from all lives and a certain amount of you...consciously, is your atman you just dont know it. its like having amnesia...where you dont remember certain things but you still exist.. then when you reclaim your memories well all things make sense again dont they? hehe. if that analogy makes sense.

Now, coems the time...what do YOU think about all of this???? :)

Namaste

Tobias

[David19]

Sorry i have replied to this in awhile, but thanks for your explanations as i'm understanding more, although, i think it's me being dumb, but i'm still a bit confused about reincarnation, if i were to die, and reincarnate in another body, would i still be, kind of, the same person (spiritually speaking) or would i, as Peter Paddon says, be mixed with bits and pieces of other people (he calls it a 'cosmic soup') and someone 'new' would come out of that (and so on), 'cause, it may just be the ego part of me like you said, but i'm kind of worried that i won't still be me (spiritually, or as in the same soul), it may sound dumb as i've only just turned 20, but it something that kind of has me confused and a bit worried about.

Anyway, hope that made some sense :).

[Toby Stimpson]

hahaha...nono dont feel dumb. I personally think peter Paddon really has it wrong. Like I've said, when you reincarnate youre life from previous lives is supressed like a memory and you dont focus on it...you become soemone else but essentially you are the same person. \The differences come partly from youre culture and surroundings you find yourself born into...or your mental state. An anim al cannot act like a Human personality even if he or she used to be Human in a past life. You are never mixed with other peoples egos...your Atman simply suppresses the ego of one life with all the others from previous lives. If that amkes sense lol. Then after a while...if you attain liberation youre atman feels complete and completly destroys the egos it's supressed...but remember, and this is where Buddhism Nirvana comes into it...your ego is not you...your ego is your mindset and personality but the feeling of existance that you feel is YOU. If that amkes sense lol.

[David19]

I think i understand that a bit more, so when you reinarnate, you're still you, you don't get mixed with others, but you don't remember your past lives (unless you have some kind of past life regression or achieve enlightenment?), would it basically be when you die, you kind of get spiritual 'amnesia' or something when you reincarnate, and you begin your new life, as a 'new' person, so to speak (still you but just building up new feelings, thoughts, opinions, etc until your next life).

Not sure if that made any sense but i hope it did.

Does that sound right at all? :).

Also, i have a few other questions (which again i hope aren't too dumb :)), can you reincarnate in other realms or planes (beside this earth/plane/realm), as i've read something a bit like that (but i'm not sure if it's true), and also is it possible to remember past lives (as i've seen some people say they have (like Dion Fortune seemed to know about her past lives)), but i'm not sure if past life regression is possible (in Hinduism anyway).

Again, hope that made some sense :).

[Novembers River]

I am reading the Bhagavad Gita right now and my understanding (as well as what Galadraal has already said) is that you are the same person when you reincarnate. You simply don't remember your past lives.

You reincarnate and your karma follows you.

[Sankara]

Westerners think that the concept of individualism is their own creation of some sort when in fact it was a very universal concept that was present all over the world. They tend to perceive other faiths based on this misconception, so don't get fooled by things like this.

Like Galadraal said, your soul does not get mixed with others; in fact, one aspect of enlightenment is that you realize your past lives and you become one, your final self.

In term of reincarnation, you can be reincarnated in any realm and as any life form. It all depends on your karma.

[Toby Stimpson]

I agree with the others. See I think Peter Paddon is misunderstanding what the concept of an individual is, and what that means when it coems to lives. he probably sees it that each life is a single soul...when infact thats completly wrong. each life (as in incarnation) is a same soul just appearing in different ways.

When it coems to reincarnation, there are several states you can be in...seen on a scale. Theres several very important symbols to do with reincarnation and ofcourse these all have stories connected with. The very famous Swastika, shows the four realms of being and possible worlds for incarnation: The world, the underworld, the high heavens, and the lower heavens. This could also be seen as you being incarnatd as either plant, animal, human or demon. Now it is possible to rememebr past lives, but personally I think the reason we dont rememebr past lives is because...it may interfere in what needs to be done in a life. if you have experiance of an 80 year old councillor and you're a 6 yr old little girl in the next life...how is that going to help the natural balance?

Namaste

Tobias

[David19]

Thanks to everyone who replied, it really helped me understand things, so if i've got things right, you can be reincarnated into any plane or realm (like a demonic one, heavenly ones, etc?).

Could i ask another question, in Hinduism, are there many realms and planes (like a multiverse) that you can be born into, and does Brahman(sp? i hope i've spelt that right) exist in all of those (i'm unsure if Brahman is like other deities (e.g. Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian, Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah, etc) or is Brahman more of an abstract concept that runs through the world/multiverse.

Hope that made some sense, as i'm interested in the cosmology of Hinduism.

Also, just remembered something else, if humans can be reincarnated in different planes/realms, can demons, heavenly beings, devas, etc be reborn as humans?.

Thanks, and again, i hope these don't seem dumb :).

[Toby Stimpson]

Thanks to everyone who replied, it really helped me understand things, so if i've got things right, you can be reincarnated into any plane or realm (like a demonic one, heavenly ones, etc?).

Could i ask another question, in Hinduism, are there many realms and planes (like a multiverse) that you can be born into, and does Brahman(sp? i hope i've spelt that right) exist in all of those (i'm unsure if Brahman is like other deities (e.g. Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian, Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah, etc) or is Brahman more of an abstract concept that runs through the world/multiverse.

Hope that made some sense, as i'm interested in the cosmology of Hinduism.

Also, just remembered something else, if humans can be reincarnated in different planes/realms, can demons, heavenly beings, devas, etc be reborn as humans?.

Thanks, and again, i hope these don't seem dumb :).

Good questions! I have somewhat of an idea, although right now I am still studying the various mythologies. First, your last question:

Can heavenly beings be born as Humans? Yep, as far as I can tell they can be. There are many stories of Gods whose heavenly forms ere somehow destroyed being born as Humans. Like the idea of Avatars, these humans act as either forms of God on earh who have supernatural powers...OR they are merely human beings with divine knowledge. Theres the story of KamaDeva, the Brahmanic god of Love (and who is linked to the evil God Maya in Buddhism) who was burned to cinders by Shiva in the Puranas. Shiva allowed him to be reborn as a human child, and ironicly as a child of Krishna and Rukmini. When the child was born and grew, the Gods allowed him to become Kamadeva again and retake his place in the pantheon. There is also the story of Ayyapan, a popular God in southern India who was said to have been first created from a union between male Shiva and a female form of Vishnu (Mohini). Ayyapan was reincarnated as a child to the king of a Tamil Nadu kingdom and grew up to be a powerful warrior. Now out of mythology, there is a common idea that a God or a heavenly being can be born as a Human, and this is in part why reverance to a natural Yogi or Guru comes into play. There are several ideas surrounding this phenomenon, which is either a part of the essence of the God is transferred to the womb (this is what would be classed as an Avatar), or that a full Godly soul is tranferred and becomes a Human perhaps because of Karmik debt (such as the case with Indra when he angered a Sage, and was forced to be born as a slave boy). The idea also applies to Tibetan Buddhism, where heavenly forms of Bodhisattvas become teachers, like the Dalai Lama (he is seen to be derived from a compassionate form of Avalokitesvara). In India a few years ago, a boy was born with a small tail like appendage, Im really not sure when, but all over pilgrims flocked becasue they thought he was an earthly avatar of Hanuman, the monkey god. So yes, Divine beings...and also Demons can become hUmans. Kansa, the evil uncle of Krishna was a demon bound into earthly flesh.

Second question about multi universes/realms. Mythologically speaking, there are many realms and places. There is the earthly realm which is our Earth. Then there are many others. The entire universe is seen to be a concentric set of rings with Mt. Meru in the center. Google Hindu mythology...and then look at Vedic and Brahmanic cosmology. Generally speaking there are supposed to be many dwellings and heavenly cities of Gods, like Brahma's lies at the very top of Mt. Meru...and Shiva is said to live on Mt. Kailash. Im going to try and find some links for you and get back to that question :).

Namaste

Tobias

[Toby Stimpson]

The Important thing to realize about Hinduism, is that as a religion it is very disjointed...theres a LOT of smaller religions within it's bounds...and so certain places on Earth are connected to mythological places. Below Ive tried to create atleast a short list of possible earthly places connected to mythology (even though a lot are wikipedia pages oh well :D)

Some info on Mt. Meru, the Capital of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Meru

On Mt. Kailash, the Abode of Shiva:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kailash

Some info on Hindu Mandir and Temple design (most Hindu temples follow a sacred pattern designed in part due to mythological cosmology):

http://www.templenet.com/Articles/hintemp.html
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/hindutemple

Some info on Ganges, the holy river that flows from the top of Mt. Meru to the bottom realms:

http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/India/05/lyle/index.html


Some info on Sabrimala, Ayyapa's abode and central pilgramage site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyappan
http://www.hotelskerala.com/sabarimala/index.htm


Some info on the temples in Madurai, the holiest city to followers of Murugan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai
http://www.pilgrimage-india.com/south-india-pilgrimage/meenakshi-temple.html

Some info on Calcutta, a potent pilgrimage site for followers of Devi, and of kali:
http://www.templenet.com/Bengal/kalighat.html
http://kalighat.jagaddhatri.com/

Information on Tripura, the fabled three cities destroyed by the Gods:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripura_(mythology))

Information on Sri Lankan Hindu mythology:
http://www.lankalibrary.com/myths.html

Other Useful websites:
www.Hindunet.net

http://www.infidelguy.com/heaven_sky.htm (a small website looking at comparitive ancient cosmology)

[David19]

Thanks for the information and the links, they look very interesting, and Hinduism seems to have a lot of great things in it (mythology, gods, spirits, etc).

And, thanks again, as i'm understanding more about Hinduism (and some parts of Buddhism too :)).

I've got another question, if u don't mind, if gods and demons, etc can be reborn as humans, can humans be reborn (or ascend) to the levels of gods (or demons, etc), or do you have to be born a god (like having divine parents)?.

Thanks again :).

[Toby Stimpson]

I've got another question, if u don't mind, if gods and demons, etc can be reborn as humans, can humans be reborn (or ascend) to the levels of gods (or demons, etc), or do you have to be born a god (like having divine parents)?.

Mhm ofcourse...and the opposite could be true. Like one view might be that a Human being who attains a certain level of knowledge but does not attain Moksha might become a DemiGod...or if one becomes so weighed down by Karma that their deeds are literilly being cancelled out by even more negetive deeds they may become an Asura. I studied Indian Ghosts and demons once (I think i sent that to you through MSN David...) and there are stories of people becoming monstrous demons due to actions or circumstances in life. To get back to your question...theres an idea of Bhakti worship where one focusses and becomes intune with God by purifying his love for God...in mythology there are stories of Humans ascending to live and dwell in the palaces of their chosen Gods as servants and they become immortal. There are also Gods who were once human beings or demons and who through divine providence or favour became Gods. For example, theres Rahu who was once a demonic dragon who ended up becoming a Navagraha, or an astrological God along with Surya. Theres also Santoshi Maa, who is said to have, through her deeds, become a Goddess of compassion and women through her struggles in life. Theres also Kubera, who was a half brother of Ravana, the demon king of Lanka and a half Rakshasha who lead a form of demon named Yakshas and a few other mythological beings away from Ravana's kingdom and set up a kingdom in the Himalayas. Kubera subsequently became a god of wealth through his purification of his life.

Ofocurse in a realistic, non mythological way...theres the view that Gurus become Gods when they die because they have attained a limbo so to speak. Sai Baba claims to become Sai Ram when he dies and then forms a new avatar. Im not a big fan or follower of Sai Baba....so I cant say anything. If you look at what Gods are, essentially they are figure heads or teachers who also worship Gods themselves. Shiva worships Vishnu, Vishnu worships Shiva. Brahma worships both of them as other lesser Gods worship Brahma....etc. In a way Huymans can become Gods if they do not attain Moksha, because in essence they become guides. This is akin to the Bodhisattva ideal...after all, the main Bodhisattvas were once Human (as well as Grass, monkey, dragon, serpant, fish...etc,.) and still do take Human forms. So in a way yes, we humans can become Gods. One of my more played songs on my comp right now is "Vaishnav Jan Tow" which talks about Godlike men. Humans can become Godlike by exhibiting true signs of compassionate thought...and in essence we become the Godly Atman inside us.

[David19]

Mhm ofcourse...and the opposite could be true. Like one view might be that a Human being who attains a certain level of knowledge but does not attain Moksha might become a DemiGod...or if one becomes so weighed down by Karma that their deeds are literilly being cancelled out by even more negetive deeds they may become an Asura. I studied Indian Ghosts and demons once (I think i sent that to you through MSN David...) and there are stories of people becoming monstrous demons due to actions or circumstances in life. To get back to your question...theres an idea of Bhakti worship where one focusses and becomes intune with God by purifying his love for God...in mythology there are stories of Humans ascending to live and dwell in the palaces of their chosen Gods as servants and they become immortal. There are also Gods who were once human beings or demons and who through divine providence or favour became Gods. For example, theres Rahu who was once a demonic dragon who ended up becoming a Navagraha, or an astrological God along with Surya. Theres also Santoshi Maa, who is said to have, through her deeds, become a Goddess of compassion and women through her struggles in life. Theres also Kubera, who was a half brother of Ravana, the demon king of Lanka and a half Rakshasha who lead a form of demon named Yakshas and a few other mythological beings away from Ravana's kingdom and set up a kingdom in the Himalayas. Kubera subsequently became a god of wealth through his purification of his life.

Ofocurse in a realistic, non mythological way...theres the view that Gurus become Gods when they die because they have attained a limbo so to speak. Sai Baba claims to become Sai Ram when he dies and then forms a new avatar. Im not a big fan or follower of Sai Baba....so I cant say anything. If you look at what Gods are, essentially they are figure heads or teachers who also worship Gods themselves. Shiva worships Vishnu, Vishnu worships Shiva. Brahma worships both of them as other lesser Gods worship Brahma....etc. In a way Huymans can become Gods if they do not attain Moksha, because in essence they become guides. This is akin to the Bodhisattva ideal...after all, the main Bodhisattvas were once Human (as well as Grass, monkey, dragon, serpant, fish...etc,.) and still do take Human forms. So in a way yes, we humans can become Gods. One of my more played songs on my comp right now is "Vaishnav Jan Tow" which talks about Godlike men. Humans can become Godlike by exhibiting true signs of compassionate thought...and in essence we become the Godly Atman inside us.

Thanks again, although when you say Brahma worships both Shiva and Vishnu, i always thought Brahma was like the creator (or maybe even something greater than a god), but is that wrong, or is that something else i'm thinking of.

Also, i think in Hinduism, there are many cycles of existance, like the universe will get destroyed, and a new one is born, and then that dies, and another one comes out, etc, but what happens if you don't ever break you're bad karma, do you just continue to reincarnate or remain a demon (or whatever), i've read that at the end, those souls that haven't broken their karma, get absorbed back into Brahman or something, and are destroyed until the next life (i think, i might be getting it wrong though?).

And, this is probably off topic, but when the universe does get destroyed, who does it, i've heard that sometimes Shiva does his dance of destruction or something or sometimes Shiva and his goddess consort (i can't remember her name, it might be Shakti?) have sex and the old universe is destroyed and a new one is born (talk about the earth moving, lol!), and are all universes destroyed or just this one?.

And, another question, does Brahman flow through all things and in every dimension/plane/realm, etc or just in this one (or am i confusing Brahman with prana?).

BTW, you did send me the document of Hindu demons, which was very cool and thanks, it's very informative, although, in Hinduism, are all demons seen as evil or are they like humans (some good, some evil, some neutral or 'grey', etc).

Thanks again and hope these weren't too many questions, it's just i'm interested in learning about Hinduism :).

[Toby Stimpson]

Thanks again, although when you say Brahma worships both Shiva and Vishnu, i always thought Brahma was like the creator (or maybe even something greater than a god), but is that wrong, or is that something else i'm thinking of.

Brahman and then theres Brahma...Brahma is the creator God yes, but he is very weak in actual worship. In mythology he is worshipped becasue he is the father of a lot of Gods. Brahman is different...Brahman and Brahma have similar roots in the language thats why their names are very close. Brahman is the abstract all...found in monotheistic Hinduism.



Also, i think in Hinduism, there are many cycles of existance, like the universe will get destroyed, and a new one is born, and then that dies, and another one comes out, etc, but what happens if you don't ever break you're bad karma, do you just continue to reincarnate or remain a demon (or whatever), i've read that at the end, those souls that haven't broken their karma, get absorbed back into Brahman or something, and are destroyed until the next life (i think, i might be getting it wrong though?).

Yes, you're right. In Hindu astrocosmology...theres cycles called Yugas, which are different eras. We are right now in kali Yuga, which was preced by Treta Yuga.
Hmm, Im not sure what to say about this. I think perhaps this might be true but theres a vagueness when it coems to theology and mythology. I can only think that perhaps a messiah like figure (as seen in Vaishnavism with kalkin, the 10th avatar of Vishnu) comes and the world changes enough to eliminate karmic debt. n a practical level, I suppose those souls that still remain over when the time coems for dissoluation may act as a jump start for the next cycle of the universe...kind of like souls who link and carry on the process.



And, this is probably off topic, but when the universe does get destroyed, who does it, i've heard that sometimes Shiva does his dance of destruction or something or sometimes Shiva and his goddess consort (i can't remember her name, it might be Shakti?) have sex and the old universe is destroyed and a new one is born (talk about the earth moving, lol!), and are all universes destroyed or just this one?.
Well this really does come down to pure mythology, becasue in the end we just dont know what will happen. Some scientists have speculated that in the end a black hole may engulf the universe and in some respects this black hole may be Shiva in his destroyer aspect. Others believe that Narayan, who we are said to be mere figmants of his dream, will just wake up. Really its hard to say becasue there are many different end times stories and ideas floating about. The main idea is that there will be a dissolution where the universe becomes a void. How that coems about depends on the belief system.



And, another question, does Brahman flow through all things and in every dimension/plane/realm, etc or just in this one (or am i confusing Brahman with prana?).
Hmm, Im not quite sure what you mean. Errr, prana is universal energy right...in a way Brahman flows like that. But Brahman is more abstract than even that. Brahman could be said to be a concept of the mind...flowing from one mind to another BUT not having physical form. Unless Brahman is written down onto paper or soemwhere, he remains as a concept. Similarly, Brahman is a concept transferred from the Atman...and until he is represented by lower Gods like the Devas, or by Demons like the Asuras, or by Human beings...he is unmanifest. Now, that might make Brahman seem like soemthing, but really he is nothing. He is both nothing and soemthing...the music and the lack of music. He is the air, but he is also the lungs breathing in that air. he is a cycle. Now if multiple universes exist, which they must do...then Brahman is lord of them all becasue Brahman manifests our universe. I would indeed think that Brahman is a part of every conceivable universe becaseu then every conceivable lesson and beyond is learned and taught and ignored. Like for example...theres a very popular image in Viashnavism and the Hare krishna movement (they even added it into their translation of the Srimad Bhagavatam) of Vishnu lying in the ocean of milk surrounded by bubbles...showing himself inside each. In thsiw ay Narayan (Vishnu) is seen in every conceivable universe and reality....in one way or another.



BTW, you did send me the document of Hindu demons, which was very cool and thanks, it's very informative, although, in Hinduism, are all demons seen as evil or are they like humans (some good, some evil, some neutral or 'grey', etc).

haha youre welcome...I still are adding to that soemwhere! Well this is an interesting question. if you look at demons from around the world...from various different cultures and folk beliefs they normally represent the wild and untamed forces of destruction right. Things that are there as melavolent becasue they are not understood and can cause destruction. In Hinduism, demons....like in Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism (where the model may have originated first) they appear less and less like untamed natural elements and more and more like non believers who are morally corrupt. They are strong and do destroy, but in many stories they also create doubt. In my Goddess Kali's hand lies a demon head representing ego. Nataraja stands upon a dwarf demon representing ignorance. Now not all of them are evil or bad, there are stories of demons who defy their fellows and worship the Gods. They are rewarded by this by becoming Humans or turning back into Gandharvas or Apsaras. Now a demon, or Asura, can soemtiems be seen in neutral ways...just simply existing and not really bothering Human beings. Although these are very rare.

I hope that sort of answered your questions, maybe haha.

[David19]

Thanks again, i'm understanding a lot more now, i've also got another question (i know i ask a lot of questions, LOL! ;)), but this is another thing i'm curious about.

I think i understand that Brahman is what is behind the gods, the thing that created them and, i think, i've heard that everything, including humans, is considered a manifestation of Brahman, but i'm not sure if i've got that right.

And, if everything is a manifestation of Brahman, are the gods also seen as individuals (like would Kali, Shiva, etc have her own personality, while still being from Brahman), 'cause, it's just if humans are also manifestations, but we're also individuals, would it be the same for the gods, and other supernatural beings, etc?.

Thanks, and i hope that made some sense, 'cause i just read it back, and i'm not sure if it does :).

[Toby Stimpson]

Thanks again, i'm understanding a lot more now, i've also got another question (i know i ask a lot of questions, LOL! ;)), but this is another thing i'm curious about.

I think i understand that Brahman is what is behind the gods, the thing that created them and, i think, i've heard that everything, including humans, is considered a manifestation of Brahman, but i'm not sure if i've got that right.

And, if everything is a manifestation of Brahman, are the gods also seen as individuals (like would Kali, Shiva, etc have her own personality, while still being from Brahman), 'cause, it's just if humans are also manifestations, but we're also individuals, would it be the same for the gods, and other supernatural beings, etc?.

Thanks, and i hope that made some sense, 'cause i just read it back, and i'm not sure if it does :).

I understand what you are saying completly. From what I have managed to understand myself, and believe you me it's diffcult to get a grasp of the concept becasue there are a lot of ideas...and with such a concept everyone uses metaphors. The one I like to use is...imagine water:

Brahman is like water, in that you can create individual glasses of water, mix things with thsoe glasses so they become different....but fundamentally what never chnges and what is always true about the individual glasses is that they ARE WATER. Brahman, to me, is similar to this. It is the essence and underlying identity of all things. In which case all things are, underneath their personalities part of brahman because they all hold Brahman in them. Nowe the Gods are individuals...but also in many ways the Gods are manifestations. They are both. Going back to the idea of reincarnation before....and the mask metaphor used with the Atman. Think of Brahman as a Mahatman, or a great soul...it uses masks to show it's self...but all of these masks have personalities and are alive. Each mask is an individual atmans, whom have different masks each. The gods act like this...some Gods are mere forms of others, some gods are completly seperate individuals. They are all LINKED though in that they all have atmans and are all apart of Brahman. The physical universe does not come from brahman directly becasue all universes and all realms are a part of Brahman. err did that make any sense?

[David19]

I understand what you are saying completly. From what I have managed to understand myself, and believe you me it's diffcult to get a grasp of the concept becasue there are a lot of ideas...and with such a concept everyone uses metaphors. The one I like to use is...imagine water:

Brahman is like water, in that you can create individual glasses of water, mix things with thsoe glasses so they become different....but fundamentally what never chnges and what is always true about the individual glasses is that they ARE WATER. Brahman, to me, is similar to this. It is the essence and underlying identity of all things. In which case all things are, underneath their personalities part of brahman because they all hold Brahman in them. Nowe the Gods are individuals...but also in many ways the Gods are manifestations. They are both. Going back to the idea of reincarnation before....and the mask metaphor used with the Atman. Think of Brahman as a Mahatman, or a great soul...it uses masks to show it's self...but all of these masks have personalities and are alive. Each mask is an individual atmans, whom have different masks each. The gods act like this...some Gods are mere forms of others, some gods are completly seperate individuals. They are all LINKED though in that they all have atmans and are all apart of Brahman. The physical universe does not come from brahman directly becasue all universes and all realms are a part of Brahman. err did that make any sense?

Thanks, it did make sense, so to take Kali, for example, would she have her own personality and be completly seperate to, say, Aphrodite, Hel, etc but still a part of Brahman (if that made any sense :)).

Edit: Just wanted to add something else, is Brahman conscious at all (like does it have a personaliy, etc or is it more like a distant, concept that we can't understand?).

Thanks again :).

[David19]

Just remembered something else i wanted to ask about reincarnation (i know i ask a lot of questions ;) :)).

I think you mentioned when you reincarnate, you don't remember your previous lives or anything, but i was just wondering, are the memories and everything still in you, like in your soul, just out of access (not sure if that made sense).

Also, i've been thinking about something which has to do with magic, i'm not sure how magic is looked upon in Hinduism (i know that when you work with the chakras, you start to awaken siddhi's (supernatural powers)) but if you did develop some magical ability (or a lot) would that still be in your soul (like, to take Dion Fortune for example, i've read she developed a lot of mystical power (stuff, it seems like you might only associate with TV like Buffy, such as teleportation, levitation, materialising objects, telekenisis, etc) and i was just wondering, if she (or someone like her) were to reincarnate, would that mystical power still be part of her, or would she have to re-develop them all over again (like maybe she wouldn't be able to access them, but it might make magic easier for her, or she might be able to awaken them easier or something).

Anyway, again, i hope that made some sense, 'cause i'm not sure if it did ;) :), but i hope it did, and thanks for any answers, as i like learning about various aspects of Hinduism (especially reincarnation and other things).

[David19]

Hope my recent posts did make some sense, and didn't make me sound too crazy :).

[Toby Stimpson]

Hope my recent posts did make some sense, and didn't make me sound too crazy :).

hehe, yep...I have honestly had little time to come on and write up answers. I hope these help:



Thanks, it did make sense, so to take Kali, for example, would she have her own personality and be completly seperate to, say, Aphrodite, Hel, etc but still a part of Brahman (if that made any sense ).


The nature of gods are fluidic. They are separate beings, but they can also flow into each other if necessary. If kali and Durga need to combine to tackle an enemy, they will. If a new form of a God that is similar to a form o another god must be taken on they will. I believe that all gods are individuals, but at the same time connected. Im not quite sure how to put it into words to be honest.



Edit: Just wanted to add something else, is Brahman conscious at all (like does it have a personaliy, etc or is it more like a distant, concept that we can't understand?).


More so a distant concept. Think of it this way…if it is in the truest sense of the word impersonal…how can it have a definable substance? How can it have a character and a personality. This is why Gods with personalities exist, in Hindu theory atleast…because Brahman is in some ways creating us so that it may have substance. Think of it though in a way of the internet. If there were no websites, what would constitutue the internet? In another way…what is he internet? There is no such physical thing as the internet, yet it exists. Just as there is no such physical thing as Brahman, but it exists because in some ways all creation is what constitutes Brahman. If that makes sense. Ocourse all of these are semantics…we can argue and talk about b rahman all day without even gettinbg closer to understanding it.



I think you mentioned when you reincarnate, you don't remember your previous lives or anything, but i was just wondering, are the memories and everything still in you, like in your soul, just out of access (not sure if that made sense).


They might be…with some people they wont be…others they may be. It’s a matter of arguments really. I mean what is that feeling of familiarity you sometimes get with certain individuals you have never remotely met before? What is déjà vu…is it a memory of what happened in the future past. What is past life regression? Really I cant say I havbe much of an opinion in it because then the next step will iinevitably mean….what then? What does it matter? Personally, I am a strong believer that a force that exists, whether it be a God or a natural order of energy, will hold back or trigger the memory of an event to come back IF it is needed to either teach or inform. Nothing more.



Also, i've been thinking about something which has to do with magic, i'm not sure how magic is looked upon in Hinduism (i know that when you work with the chakras, you start to awaken siddhi's (supernatural powers)) but if you did develop some magical ability (or a lot) would that still be in your soul (like, to take Dion Fortune for example, i've read she developed a lot of mystical power (stuff, it seems like you might only associate with TV like Buffy, such as teleportation, levitation, materialising objects, telekenisis, etc) and i was just wondering, if she (or someone like her) were to reincarnate, would that mystical power still be part of her, or would she have to re-develop them all over again (like maybe she wouldn't be able to access them, but it might make magic easier for her, or she might be able to awaken them easier or something).


Well, you ask a strange question to be honest. I think…well theres several views I can think of. One is that those powers come from spiritual power. Theres another view that states they are arth bound, and will NOT follow the soul. Ok, lets first tackle magic and Siddhis. The basis of what Indian ‘supernatural’ metaphysics is derived rom comes from the Maya theory, that suggests that all things in the universe are a complex interchange between what we perceive and the illusionary affects of nature. So in affect, it states, although we ‘feel’ the glass, although we may ‘hear’ the sound…’see’ the cloud…it doesn’t actually exist. The answer to what actually exists is unknown because to know what is reality is the goal only attained by Moksha. So the theory states that siddhis is the ability to affect the natural illusion and other people’s perceptions of that illusion through your spiritual power. A lot of tiems you’ll see Gods (like Krishna) doing this…you’ll also see a lot of times people telling story of Guru’s using siddhis with devotees. One example I can think of is Sai baba creating incense power, or ash, or small trinkets with a wave of his hand. Now, if one takes this example as real…which I must say I don’t as I am not a proponent of Sai Baba…he is using Siddhis to not ‘create’ but to change the illusion to make the minds of his devotees believe that a ring is there, where once there wasn’t. Now, as you have said, the connection between the Chakral system and Siddhis is almost like an indirect outcome. Siddhis are part of the spirit, the atman…the living God inside…and the Chakras are the doorway to unlocking those things…as well as becoming more intune with the atman. So…to answer your question, if they are spiritual based power….they are connected with your soul. If your soul becomes more awakened in one life and your Karma and dharma call for it, in the next life you may come back as an avatar of your atman…and become a great guru. If not, then you will simply ‘forget’ your abilities. That’s the benefit of yoga and the chakral system…working on those to subdue your ego and unlock youre atman…and what ever abilities you might have had. (Its not the only reason to do yoga though!)



Anyway, again, i hope that made some sense, 'cause i'm not sure if it did ;) :), but i hope it did, and thanks for any answers, as i like learning about various aspects of Hinduism (especially reincarnation and other things).

Your welcome…I hope it is sort of making sense. I just hope Im doing justice to your questions :).

[David19]

Thanks, it did make sense (not sure if my questions make sense, though! ;)), so if i'm understanding right, if you do awaken spiritual powers, then they'll be connected to your soul, and might go with you to your next life (or if there not, will you just forget them or forget how to use it?).

I've kind of been thinking about the different psychics you get (not the New Age con artists, though ;)), like there's this program i watched ages ago, where this woman was able to sense where a murder had taken place, where the victim had been buried and she also led to the arrest of the murderor, and i kind of thought, would those be powers that she (and others) had awakened in a previous life (and carried forth into this life), or would they be awakened by some force or god just in this life to help with her destiny (or karma or dharma, whatever)?.

Hope that made some sense, as i really like Hindu concepts :).

[David19]

I've got another question (and i hope you don't mind, or are getting sick of them ;)), but when someone dies, you seemed to say that they don't lose their individuality, that their the same soul who reincarnates (or whatever), and that's kind of like my believe too (i don't believe the dead suddenly lose their personality, etc when they die), but in Hindu belief, what would happen to people like Hitler, would he just reincarnate or what would his ghost be like, IMO, i don't think, despite being dead, would change him that much, i think he'd still be an anti-Semitic, homophobic idiot (i could say a lot worse things, but i probably can't in case there's a kid reading this ;)), and i don't see him (or others like him) suddenly being a 'best friend' of Jews, Gypsies, LGBT people, etc, but is there a belief in Hinduism for what would happen to Hitler or people like him (e.g. pediphiles, etc), 'cause i just got thinking, if someone like Hitler reincarnates, wouldn't they basically be free to kill again or something or would something else happen to them.

Hope that made some sense :).

[Toby Stimpson]

I've got another question (and i hope you don't mind, or are getting sick of them ;)), but when someone dies, you seemed to say that they don't lose their individuality, that their the same soul who reincarnates (or whatever), and that's kind of like my believe too (i don't believe the dead suddenly lose their personality, etc when they die), but in Hindu belief, what would happen to people like Hitler, would he just reincarnate or what would his ghost be like, IMO, i don't think, despite being dead, would change him that much, i think he'd still be an anti-Semitic, homophobic idiot (i could say a lot worse things, but i probably can't in case there's a kid reading this ;)), and i don't see him (or others like him) suddenly being a 'best friend' of Jews, Gypsies, LGBT people, etc, but is there a belief in Hinduism for what would happen to Hitler or people like him (e.g. pediphiles, etc), 'cause i just got thinking, if someone like Hitler reincarnates, wouldn't they basically be free to kill again or something or would something else happen to them.

Hope that made some sense :).

Its a good question. well, one thing about Hindu Dhrama, Buddhist Dharma, Sikh Dharma, and Jain Dharma is the ability for forgiveness. But it comes back to the idea of karma. And I think you confuse some of the basic concepts. With Hitler, he commited terrible acts. He commited sins against others, although indirectly he ultimatly commanded his legions to kill. Karma wise thats not good! However, since he did commit these actions...his next reincarnation would be linked to his karma, which may be low. He may mythologically speaking come back as an Asura, a demon. He may realistcily come back as a lower animal...or as a Human who's conditions arew what we would percieve to be primitive. He would pay for what he did in this life in his next life basicly. However it should be pointd out that he would not rememebr his past life, and he would not have the same biases. Remember that biases are a form of the ego, hate is a part of the ego...and as we reincarnate we are not born with those impulses unless they are perticularly strong. Also, if you look at the psychological causes of such things...in Hitler's case it could have been a brain defect, coupled with years of anti social behaviour. the psychology of hate is never as simple as "it's just the person."

There is also a level of forgiveness in Hinduism becasue ultimatly when it comes down to it...Hitler iss God, as are we all. And with that...Hitler's negetive actions wont matter when he attains moksha becasue he will cease to be Hitler. Everyone has a choice as to whether or not they improve their lives...however it is only a matter of difficulty. I personally dont agree that everyone is born eqaul, and in many ways when people are born they have the entirety of their class, privledges and the family they are born into. That and the fact that souls are not necessarily having a choice of the state of the body they go into. There are cases where certain things can carry over from a past life, for example a girl was born with deformed hands in the village that not 10 years before soemone who they believe she is a reincarnation of was hacked to death with extensive damage to their hands. These thjings people can never control whn they incarnate.

There is also a mythological idea in hinduism that in soem ways Ghosts and evil spirits are the disembodied egos of 'evil people.' Like one question that always went through my mind was how can there be such things as Ghosts, if you believe in reincarnation. there are two possible explanations that i can think of to account for this...that A) the soul just did not continueon to the next life and remaind as a disembodied being. B) The egotistical part of the mind manifests and with energy from family members and the universe it detaches at death and remains on, whole. This however is an illusion, and that is why you see many times these 'spirits' unable to afect majorly anything.

So to sum up, in the idea of reincarnation...and this follows very similar lines along the other reincarnation believing traditions...that biases and hatred and what not are a product of the flesh and of the ego. And although we will pay for acting upon these in other lives...they will not afect those lives. its really true that a person can be a demon in one life, but in other lives become a Saint. This is also the case with Pedophiles....if we go along with the theory that pedophilia is a brain imbalance...then these individuals are not bad people, they have tendencies that are negetive...but the essence of who they are in that life is suppose to be good. If that makes sense? like I mean the main idea is also that people will be different from life to life...theyre condition may be affected becasue of karma...but they will be different.

Namaste :)

Tobias

[Toby Stimpson]

Thanks, it did make sense (not sure if my questions make sense, though! ;)), so if i'm understanding right, if you do awaken spiritual powers, then they'll be connected to your soul, and might go with you to your next life (or if there not, will you just forget them or forget how to use it?).

I've kind of been thinking about the different psychics you get (not the New Age con artists, though ;)), like there's this program i watched ages ago, where this woman was able to sense where a murder had taken place, where the victim had been buried and she also led to the arrest of the murderor, and i kind of thought, would those be powers that she (and others) had awakened in a previous life (and carried forth into this life), or would they be awakened by some force or god just in this life to help with her destiny (or karma or dharma, whatever)?.

Hope that made some sense, as i really like Hindu concepts :).


I didnt even see this post! i appologize for not replying sooner!

Well it can be all of thsoe things. I mean the nature of supernatural powers is really unknowable right now. People have them, they sue them...they can develop them. i think I can spew theory after theory after theory without even getting close to what is a possible truth. I would think if your abilities are awakened by a guru, then you would have as much ability as percieved in another life. If you develoiped your abilities...then that atleasts show that your abilities carried through. If your abilities are very strong naturally, there will b a reason for that. Like also, I( mean if you bring into the mix the whole Chakra and Kundalini energy...in a way we all have a potential to develop and culminate those abilities. So ultimatly I can say I dotn realy have an answer for that.

[David19]

I thought i'd bump this up, 'cause i just found an article that explains Peter Paddon's view on reincarnation, which explains his beliefs a lot better than i was doing, it's here, http://www.crookedpath.org/article_read.asp?id=7, and that keeps getting me confused, personally, i'm not sure what happens when we die, but i really don't like the sound of what Paddon says (although i do like his podcasts, as he is very knowledgable).

But, hopefully, Galadraal or anyone else can make more sense of it, and help me understand it a bit more :).

Thanks.

[Toby Stimpson]

I thought i'd bump this up, 'cause i just found an article that explains Peter Paddon's view on reincarnation, which explains his beliefs a lot better than i was doing, it's here, http://www.crookedpath.org/article_read.asp?id=7, and that keeps getting me confused, personally, i'm not sure what happens when we die, but i really don't like the sound of what Paddon says (although i do like his podcasts, as he is very knowledgable).

But, hopefully, Galadraal or anyone else can make more sense of it, and help me understand it a bit more :).

Thanks.

eheh, thanks for posting David...I think i can with full justification say that as a view of Reincarnation, I fully reject his views and refute them.

He is basicly saying that reincarnation works like a blender. When you die...your spirit is placd into a blender with a lot of other people, and then youre all mixed together. He seems to becoming loosely from a Celtic path...although to be hoenst I have never really seen evidence that the Celts as a group of peopels believed in reincarnation (I could be wrong!). Now hes saying that when the reincarnation blending process is over, then the material thats inside is then scooped out, all mixed, and creates a new person...instead of being the essence of the original.

Now I have a conflict with this. Now if we apply this to Hindu theory, inwhich it is one take on what he is saying...then he is in essence by saying "cosmic soup" referring to Brahman, the underlying god energyu of the universe. Now, I have a problem with this first and foremost becasue all evidence on the Hindu side of things states that Karma follows an individual atman...and depending onm that individual atman's experiances and path karma will be lifted or added. If we go with what peter paddon is saying, that we all return to a baseline soup after every death, and is reconstituted...then it does not mkake sense karma wise becasue karma follows and dictates the experiances of an atman from life to life. if you return to a baseline origin...and every person is in essence a newly created being...then your karma would not exist and the whole theory of Karma falls out. Now if Peter Paddon was saying that eventuyally after many lives an atman, or a spirit returns to the baseline origin, in my case Brahman and is reconstitued. that makes sense becasue that is in essence what moksha is. The theory of reincarnmation as I have stated elsewhere here is that Brahman releases parts of it's self to create 'souls' and that as a reconstitued atman to brahman, you become part of it and thus indistinguishable...so in essence moksha is lowing your I identity and going into a blender. So i can agree with Peter paddon on that....but this does not happen after each and every life...and really what he is saying of what ic an see is that WE (being individual souls) all have only 1 life....which honestly isnt reincarnation what so ever.

From a Buddhist perspective...there is no theology on how souls are created, whether they are by Brahman or what have you...but Nirvana is in essence joinging back to the reality of reality...as either an individual or as an awakened being. There is no theology that statses in Buddhism that the atman of a Buddhist whose karma is extinguished is jumbled up with anyone else. And again when it coems to Buddhism...karma follows the individual soul. So it does not make sense what he is saying.

Now if he is coming from predominantly a celtic path then i can understand...but reincarnation is mostly a developed Indian theory and as far as I can follow...does not traditionally exist in Celtic religions...and even in Norse and Germanic religions does not exist, except that of the Eihijar...but that is as individuals. Now as far as I know this to be true...ofcourse I may be wrong.

I hope that sort of helps clear a little up, perhaps?

[David19]

Thanks that actually did help me a lot, so basically, like you've said before, we reincarnate again and again, and we remain our individual selves (or i think you said our soul reincarnates but it carries with it the 'mask' we wore from our previous life or something like that?).

Then, when we reach enlightenment, we join with Brahman (or the 'cosmic soup'?), do all souls achieve this, or is it possible to just continue reincarnating (either on this plane or other planes/realms, etc).

And i can't remember if i've asked this before (i may have, but people probably know my memory sucks ;)), but what would happen if the world were suddenly destroyed (whether through natural means e.g. asteroid, flooding, or 5 billion years from now, or through supernatural means e.g. apocalypse, gods, demons, etc), what would happen to those souls that hadn't reached enlightenment, would they just get reabsorbed back into Brahman, and wait till the next universe came along, or would they reincarnate in other planes/realms or maybe just remain in some heavenly kind of dimension waiting for the chance to reincarnate again?.

Also, just remembered something else, in Hinduism (and Buddhism too if you know?), when you die, do you reincarnate right after you die, or do you go to some other realm/plane first (like, for example, Wiccans have the Summerlands where, i think, they go before reincarnating, and having a rest), and also, in Hinduism, do you get to view the life you just had or before you reincarnate again, do you get to see some of the events 'planned' for you (i've read somewhere, that before you reincarnate, you get a brief view of what the big events in your next life will be or something).

Anyway, i hope all this made some sense, and thanks for all your help, as i do really like Hindu (and Buddhist too) theology :).

[Toby Stimpson]

At long last I have finally gotten a chance to reply. Its been a busy few weeks in school and so Ive only been able to get on here long enough to monitor and read some posts.


Thanks that actually did help me a lot, so basically, like you've said before, we reincarnate again and again, and we remain our individual selves (or i think you said our soul reincarnates but it carries with it the 'mask' we wore from our previous life or something like that?).

Mhm, in a way...remember though that that is just a metaphor. In essence the Atman is almost like the foundation of a building that every few years is rebuilt. The new structure may look very different and have different rooms, but the foundation will be the same.


Then, when we reach enlightenment, we join with Brahman (or the 'cosmic soup'?), do all souls achieve this, or is it possible to just continue reincarnating (either on this plane or other planes/realms, etc).

Well thats a matter of argument. I mean to Buddhists you do not join with Brahman, and in some schools of thought Brahman inst the cosmic soup but more the quintessential knowledge of reality (almost like to KNOW about reality is to be part of it...similar to the knowledge of time make you part of time.) Generally speaking though Brahman as a force and underlying essence is similar to a 'cosmic soup' you rejoin with Brahman upon realization of truth, or when your karma has been exhausted. Now there are several ways to view this...that when you realize absolute truth, you reach ParaNirvana and you attain godhood/moksha. In some ways you can attain Paranirvana and then due to your karmic debt, keep reincarnating. This could be where the Gods coem from, beings of so much power but with so much karmic debt they achieve a middle state...and keep reincarnating as Gods because of their realizations of the universe. There are also in Buddhism, although a similar but different view of the Ultimate the Tulku and Bodhisattva phenomenon. Beings and souls who deny the entry into Buddha hood in order to teach and guide others to Nirvana. In Hinduism there is a similar idea with Gurus...Gurus who are in every sense of the word awakened...but do not choose to join with Brahman. Whether this is because their claims about being fully awakened are somehow false of overrated, or that they are in fact avatars of the Gods, whom are manifestations of Brahman. In Jainism, one o the older but smaller religions...similar to Buddhism in the inner looking state of their theology, the main symbol is the Hand of Ahimsa and also the swastika. the swastika symbolizes the four states one can be born into, Human, God, Demon or Animal.


And i can't remember if i've asked this before (i may have, but people probably know my memory sucks ;)), but what would happen if the world were suddenly destroyed (whether through natural means e.g. asteroid, flooding, or 5 billion years from now, or through supernatural means e.g. apocalypse, gods, demons, etc), what would happen to those souls that hadn't reached enlightenment, would they just get reabsorbed back into Brahman, and wait till the next universe came along, or would they reincarnate in other planes/realms or maybe just remain in some heavenly kind of dimension waiting for the chance to reincarnate again?.

There is a very fatalistic point of viewwithin Hinduism and Buddhism...in that time is a cyclical thing happening again and again. but although Humanity tends to see the universe as a very geocentric thing in mythology...there is no real scriptural evidence to say that the universe revolves around the world. The world is the biggest thing that we can relate to...and although we have not traveled to other worlds yet we will as a species one day (if we aren't blown back into a prehistoric stone age.) There are many worlds and realms in Hinduism, and specially Buddhism...and in fact one very good example is the "Realm of the Western Paridise" ruled by the Buddha of the Western Paradise Buddha Amida. This comes from the mostly Chinese and Japanese "Pure Land" Buddhism which basically says that there is a paradise like realm that souls who have achieved enough karma can enter where their Karma is basically suspended and they receive direct teaching from Buddha Amida and can thus attain Buddha hood without distractions of the suffering of the world. Now to put all of this into worldly context...if the planet earth were to somehow be destroyed...there are many other planets and realms we can incarnate on. Of course taking a Hindu cyclical view of time...Brahman would already know what happens then and now...and so souls would just reincarnate somewhere else. I mean Earth is merely one planet in billions in the universe that could conceivably support life. There are also (looking at string theory) infinite number of different realities and universes, and Brahman is in control of them all. The main idea is that perhaps half way through the life of th universe, there is a slowing of souls being created and discharged and so eventually the process will end and the universe will natural go into the phase of dissolution. Now of course such speculation though (and this will sound like a complete cop out) takes away from focusing on our present state and our present life. Focusing on our present life and our present situation will allow us as individuals to fully gain what we need to gain.


Also, just remembered something else, in Hinduism (and Buddhism too if you know?), when you die, do you reincarnate right after you die, or do you go to some other realm/plane first (like, for example, Wiccans have the Summerlands where, i think, they go before reincarnating, and having a rest), and also, in Hinduism, do you get to view the life you just had or before you reincarnate again, do you get to see some of the events 'planned' for you (i've read somewhere, that before you reincarnate, you get a brief view of what the big events in your next life will be or something).

In some ways...I think I mentioned this before. there is an idea, I believe in Bali this is popular, that when you die you go to the land of Yama and you pay for karmic debt as opposed to living it out. Im not quite sure how I feel about this, because in one way I agree...but in another it sot of goes against the idea that you pay for your past karma in present life. The dominant conception though both in higher Hinduism and lay Hinduism is that you do reincarnate soon after you die, somewhere. There are stories that a few months after someone dies their reincarnated form is actually found in the general same area. there was a girl in India who's mother and father were completely healthy but came and had deformed hands. her hands looked completely shriveled and twisted. doctors could not understand it. A few weeks earlier, the family had actually just held a funeral for one of the uncles. The uncle had been murdered quite terribly, and his hands had been mutilated with an axe. They say that the girl is the reincarnation of the uncle, because of her hands.



Anyway, i hope all this made some sense, and thanks for all your help, as i do really like Hindu (and Buddhist too) theology :).

The thing with Buddhist and Hindu theology is that there are A LOT of different views on it. The majority of the Buddhist points of view that I know of and have learned are from Mahayana...there is an entirely different point of view with therevada. Anyways Im sorry it took me so long...if you have any more questions please do post! I hope this amde sense.

[cesara]

I just wanted to say this is a fantastic thread, and thank you both David19, for asking such great and thorough questions, and Galadraal for answering and giving your viewpoint. :)

I read every word. I have recently started doing research into Hinduism and this thread was very helpful!

[Toby Stimpson]

I just wanted to say this is a fantastic thread, and thank you both David19, for asking such great and thorough questions, and Galadraal for answering and giving your viewpoint. :)

I read every word. I have recently started doing research into Hinduism and this thread was very helpful!

awww thats awesome, thankyou for saying. Did you have any questions?? I just hope other people come and give their opinions and/or viewpoints...as theres a lot of opinions that could be added here.

[cesara]

Right now I don't have any questions, but I'm sure I will and I will most certainly post any questions I have as they come up. Thanks for the offer! ;)

At this time, I feel that Hinduism truly does fall directly within my margin of belief. I'm excited at the prospect of learning more!

[Toby Stimpson]

Right now I don't have any questions, but I'm sure I will and I will most certainly post any questions I have as they come up. Thanks for the offer! ;)

At this time, I feel that Hinduism truly does fall directly within my margin of belief. I'm excited at the prospect of learning more!

Well please do stay, and ask as many questions as you want or can. Your definitly welcome to post as many things as you want in this forum. we have quite a few well read, and xperianced people who could answer your questions here... and offer you information :).

[cesara]

Thank you!! :)

[David19]

Ok, I'm bumping this thread up again (sorry Galadraal or anyone else if you're sick of my questions ;)!), but latin_bells post about reincarnation recently got me thinking, do you think it's possible for someone to reincarnate again and again as much as they want, I know in Hinduism and Buddhism, the goal is to escape reincarnation, but do you think it's possible, if you want too, to continue to reincarnate.

I personally think it is (and bear in mind, this is just my own personal opinion, some of it put together from different pieces). I know to most Hindus and Buddhists, it might seem like hell to constantly reincarnate, but that's only if you want to join with Brahman (that's the right spelling right?), I think the goal of every individual is to figure out what will make them happiest, if it's to join with Brahman/The One/God, etc then they should try and escape reincarnation, if it's too constantly be reborn then that's what they should do, or if they want to remain a ghost but wander the earth, doing what they want, then they that's what they should do, or if they want to go to the realm of their specific afterlife (I don't believe we all go to the "same place"), then they'll do that (if their god(s) accept them), etc.

Anyway, just wanted to get some opinions and/or answers, hope this made some sense, BTW, as it seemed to make sense in my head.

[Baobabtree]

I personally think it is (and bear in mind, this is just my own personal opinion, some of it put together from different pieces). I know to most Hindus and Buddhists, it might seem like hell to constantly reincarnate, but that's only if you want to join with Brahman (that's the right spelling right?), I think the goal of every individual is to figure out what will make them happiest, if it's to join with Brahman/The One/God, etc then they should try and escape reincarnation, if it's too constantly be reborn then that's what they should do, or if they want to remain a ghost but wander the earth, doing what they want, then they that's what they should do, or if they want to go to the realm of their specific afterlife (I don't believe we all go to the "same place"), then they'll do that (if their god(s) accept them), etc. I'm not too sure about the existence of ghosts (even though I'm fairly certain Hinduism teaches that they exist), or the whole thing about different deities afterlife realms, but I'm fairly certain one can only escape the cycle of reincarnation if they wish to, therefore those who want to keep reincarnating will keep being reincarnated (however I should note that Hinduism teaches we all become bored with this life after awhile and will all eventually seek to escape it and attain enlightenment).