Path of the Witch

[David19]

I was just listening to episode 0 of Peter Paddon's Pagan Podcast's (http://www.crookedpath.org/show.html), about the path of the outsider, and it basically talked about why a lot of witches and magical people find themselves on the outside (both metephorically and literally) of society, and i was just wondering, if you are a witch or any type of magical person, have you noticed yourself wanting to be alone, away from people (including away from other pagans), have you noticed that as you go deeper into your studies, you start to 'drift' away from others (either metephorically or literally), one of the reasons Peter Paddon suggested was 'cause as you get depper in magical things, you start to want to talk to other people who've experienced the things you have (e.g. if you've summoned lots of Goetic demons, you may want to talk to other Goetic mages, etc), has this happened to you.

I've noticed from reading historical examples of witchcraft, witches seemed to always be on the 'outside' of society and weren't particulary trusted (even in pre-Christian times), e.g. i think in the Norse culture and Anglo-Saxon society, witch burnings and hunts took place by other 'pagans' (and these witch hunts were banned by Christian's for being too 'pagan'), in Greece and Rome, magic was outlawed, i think, in Africa, African witches are outsiders and are not trusted and seen as 'evil' (in fact, witch doctors are there to find witches, and counter act their magic, i think). So it seems that witches have always been 'outsiders' in one way or another (either literally or metaphorically, or both, etc).

Peter Paddon also says that this is the price that any magical practicioner pays (whether witch, mage, sorceror, etc) for experiencing their incredible supernatural experiences (like meeting deities, Fae, demons, angels, ancestors, etc), would you say this is true?.

I think it's something important that people who want to be witches or are witches should think about, as they should think, are they willing to 'pay a prive' for their experiences, their magic, etc, are they willing to be 'outsiders' (even if this destroys their relationships, marriages, etc), it's something that's not mentioned much in 'pagan' books or sites, but it's something that interests me.

Anyway, hope that made some sense, and what are your thoughts/beliefs/opinions, whether you're a witch/sorceror/Goetic mage/mage/whatever, etc?.

Thanks.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I think that it's part that's true. I've noticed that as I've gotten older and more interested in my path, my interest in socializing with other people has diminished because what they find interesting is not necessarily what I find interesting.

In addition, if you are interested in studying and increasing your magical knowledge, and you work a full time job, or go to school, or take care of your family, or all of the above, that doesn't leave you a lot of time to socialize. I think in general, as people have more personal responsibilities and less forced socialization (like high school or dorm life), they become more solitary.

However, I think that you have to be careful when using the term "witch" because what witch may mean now to modern day practioners is not necessarily what it has always meant. For example, I might call myself a witch now, where as back in the day, I would have called myself a fairy doctor, or a witch doctor. I think you touched on this some in your post, but I also think that it's an important distinction.

People who practiced positive magical workings (whether they be witch doctors, fairy doctors, shamans, soul-healers) were usually trusted and honored members of their society whom people sought out for advice and knowledge. In my experience, people who practice these forms of magic may live alone or in groups, and people frequently seek them out, kind of like the neighborhood occult shop. It's a business. I've seen this in many different cultures, and these people don't call themselves witches.

Traditionally the term "witch" was used to describe a negative magical workers. Why would you want to seek someone out if you knew that they were going to harm you or if they were the antithesis of your societal beliefs? :lol: I think that a lot of the times witches lived alone because they were viewed as or were "bad" people.

[Semjaza]

The idea of witches as being outsiders among outsiders, or on the fringe of the fringe, is one that I've always had and can't seem to shake. I doubt its accuracy, though for myself it holds true. I'm not close to people. I love many, but there's always a distance. It's not just feeling as an outsider with non-pagans, the distance is still there around people who think almost like I do. I have been alone in a circle of 200 pagans.

So I think that it's me, and my different sort of way of loving people, and my general dislike for the company of others, rather than my being a witch that makes me an outsider. Though it certainly adds to it. And the imagery of the two go hand-in-hand... Perhaps I just need a lot more space than most other people...

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I've always been on the outside. I've always been the shy quiet one, with a close group of friends. It's only been more recently that I've come to realize how differently my own beliefs class with those of the dominant society, and how frustrating it is to live in a world like that. I'm not sure this has any bearing on me being a witch or not, perhaps only helping me in finding my path being drawn to things inherenly out of the norm. I've been solitary in my practice every since I started...but lately I've felt the need to meet other like me. To be part of a group, maybe even a coven, to be able to talk with other witches in real life, and even do workings with them and celebrate the sabbats. I do think that there definately is a price to pay for being a witch, which i think is seeing the world in a different way, experiencing it in a different way, which i think leads to a sort of seperation from the "normal" society where a witch might live.

[ViolinGoddess]

have you noticed yourself wanting to be alone, away from people (including away from other pagans), have you noticed that as you go deeper into your studies, you start to 'drift' away from others (either metephorically or literally),


one of the reasons Peter Paddon suggested was 'cause as you get depper in magical things, you start to want to talk to other people who've experienced the things you have (e.g. if you've summoned lots of Goetic demons, you may want to talk to other Goetic mages, etc), has this happened to you.

Peter Paddon also says that this is the price that any magical practicioner pays (whether witch, mage, sorceror, etc) for experiencing their incredible supernatural experiences (like meeting deities, Fae, demons, angels, ancestors, etc), would you say this is true?.


I think it's something important that people who want to be witches or are witches should think about, as they should think, are they willing to 'pay a prive' for their experiences, their magic, etc, are they willing to be 'outsiders' (even if this destroys their relationships, marriages, etc), it's something that's not mentioned much in 'pagan' books or sites, but it's something that interests me.

===>I haven't wanted to be alone at all. In fact I lament being alone. But I DO want to hang out with people who have like experiences as I do. But they are very hard to find. Sometimes I make the mistake of trying to talk to people who don't have those experiences. They never understand and sometimes they lose respect for me, think I'm crazy.

===>I don't think that it's the price you pay for spesifically for the supernatural experiences. I think it's the price we pay for beleiving things and practicing things that most people don't understand or don't want to accept. I think that the supernatural experiences are a gift.

===>I think we are willing to pay the price because we beleive in what we do and the way we live our lives. Because what we beleive and what we do is what feels right to us and good. And throughout history people have been shown to go through quite a lot for what they feel is right and for what they beleive in.

Violin Goddess

[Arion]

Yes, I can relate to what Peter Paddon was saying. It's frustrating talking to people who haven't experienced the same things you have. Personally, I've dedicated a lot of time to practising Witchcraft, working with Gods, magic, spiritual work... a lot of people haven't. I wouldn't really know what to talk to mainstream people about since most of my life is spent working through spiritual things. What has been important to me for the past little while has been connecting to Gods, getting knowing myself better, and figuring out what I want in life through spiritual exercizes. Not many people I meet in my daily life really care about Gods or spirituality. Lol, I don't really know what I'm getting at, but yes, it is hard to connect with society. Having this knowledge and wisdom of higher powers in the universe makes me seem kind of weird compared to most people who don't really put much thought into anything but mundane things (not that there is anything wrong with that). I do feel like a weirdo and an outsider from society because of the things I've experienced.

[Mouse]

I think that in a lot of ways it does isolate you, but that in some ways it gives you the oportunity to be 1000 times closer to the people that realy matter too.

A lot of Witches (or magickans) were outsiders before they started practicing the occult, which often isn't taken into account.

Personally I find that Witchcraft does seperate me form a lot of people in the way that there isn't a lot of common ground. My life is based around my religion, which is hard for a lot of people (even those of the same path) to understand. The deeper you get into it the more it consumes you. You see things differently than other people.

It drives a wedge in relationships, in my case with my family, because while they try to understand and accept, they don't get it or can't take it seriously.
You become a living representation of that path. People can not help but notice.

But then, my partner and I are of similar paths, and in this instance it brings us closer because we can understand the other's point of view even if we don't agree, and there are certain occult practices designed to bring couples closer together. Witchcraft gives me the ability to touch my partners soul. You can't get much closer than that... But to do it you have to bear all (I dont mean physically) and our society is a cold dishonest one, so it's a lot to ask.

I think that there is a phase, or patch, that all Witches must go through that is horribly lonely, and that a lot of understanding does come from that. And I agree that in a way there is a price to pay for occult experiences. I don't think the price stays the same or is the same for everyone though.

Witchcraft is a lonely path. I'm not sure why exactly, but you've given me a bit to think about anyway...

[Toby Stimpson]

I have to disagree with Peter Paddon. I think to some dergree he's over generalizing just a bit. If you look at non european forms of Witchcraft from around the world you'll see that in tribal societies figures who use Magick or are in touch with the spirit world are often figures of importance in the society. Generally...I can agree with what hes saying but ina different way. i feel more isolated from popular culture more because spirituality is important to me, and I see with different eyes and perspectives than others who's spirituality is not as important to them in life. Witchcraft as a spiritual thing, or even witchvraft as a normal mundane practice is well, its mature. Its takes a lot of study of specific subjects and if its very central to a persons life, and a lot of people cant relate without first understanding where you are coming from...that can isolate. I feel at tiems that I have to soemhow limit my spiritual side when talking to others becasue it might get in the way. Generally though, I think it's the personality. One can feel isolated if they both choose to feel that way, or if they are a part of a subculure. This isnt a bad thing really...but I dont necessarily think its a definite thing...you are spiritual or witchcraft is important to you THERE FOR you will be isolated. I feel quite comfortable in my life and feel accepted by my friends and community. But then again, I choose the community I live in. My community is my friends and coworkers...and I take the time to get to know these people. or example, its not uncommon now for a coworker (I currently work at walmart) to ask me to do a tarot reading for them in the back lunchroom where peopel coem in and out. Theres only been one woman whos not been interested and has put me down, the others have been very comfortable. Partly becasue I dont go around like some people and throw my beliefs in their faces, and also I take the time to explian and to show my beliefs if a discussion coems up. In rural ontario canada where I came from, in some ways I was an outcast, but that was becasue I was gay...but I developed myself inside with a strong self esteem and self image and again I found that being a spiritual person wasnt isolating me becasue Iw as very much accepted by the community. So, I suppose I both agree and disagree with your Podcaster...t depends how you define community and choose to appear within it. Intertesting thread! :)

Namaste

Tobias

[Arion]

I guess it depends on the community you live in. I think Paddon was refering to Witches in Western society, and I'd say it is hard for Witches, and a lot of other Pagans, to relate. The community I spend most of my life in happens to be a Catholic high school, and might I just say, it is definitely NOT a place where I feel accepted and understood. Catholics have their own ways of being spiritual, but they are quite different than mine. In a society that values a 'magical' approach to religious practice and working with Gods, of course witchy-type people would be more respected. Here though, we're weirdos :p

[jcldragon]

Wanting to hang out with your peers, is a completely natural human thing. Ever notice that Spiritually Enlightened people generally get into teaching others how they can become Enlightened, too? Most of that is for unselfish reasons, but there still remains the fact they want some more company of their own kind... so to speak. ;)

[~Elise~]

I disagree with the premise that we are outsiders. I'm not. I'm very much involved in the mainstream.
I have a day job, I have a relationship, I have a group to oversee, as well as family.
I've organized PPD when even the pagans were against me, I've helped bring the pagan community together as much as I can.
I've never seen myself on the outside. And as for others who have experienced what I have--I have several groups of Feri people that I correspond with via email.
I agree with whomever said the speaker was over generalizing. I know lots more like me-the only people I've seen on the outside were the ones that were ALREADY there and have taken this path as 'shock' value and want to stay there. They brag about who or what they've seen, brought into this realm, etc. Shock value for all of it. There is no 'real' spiritual belief, they are going along trying to alienate themselves so they can continue with the poor pitiful me option that they've used all their life to cope.
Am I generalizing, maybe, but that is what I see in pagan community at large.

Elise

[Mahren]

I feel I must agree and disagree. Sometimes I feel like an outsider, sure. That feeling has been norished by two years of high school. I haven't meet anyone who has shared my interest in those subjects, and needless to say high school can be rather clique-y.

But its about finding a balance.

I guess it really depends on the person. I am on this wonderful path. It gives me peace of mind and is very fulfilling to know that I am growing spiritually. And it has, ironically, given me more confidance in soical situations. Its not a "oooo I'm a Witch!" confidance, being on this path has given me an inner strength that I wanted.

Though I want to spend time studying and practicing my path, I know I can't escape the "normal" world. I've got homework, a job, friends I would be lost without. I am a witch, but i'm not on the "outside" but not quite on the "inside".

[Arion]

Yes, high school can make anyone feel like an outsider if you aren't "normal" by certain people's standards. It probably isn't as bad once you get into the 'real' world.

[Mahren]

Hopefully, since the 'real world' is so big. And thank the Gods that 'normal' is subjective.

[Carla O'Harris]

I think that it's part that's true. I've noticed that as I've gotten older and more interested in my path, my interest in socializing with other people has diminished because what they find interesting is not necessarily what I find interesting.

In addition, if you are interested in studying and increasing your magical knowledge, and you work a full time job, or go to school, or take care of your family, or all of the above, that doesn't leave you a lot of time to socialize. I think in general, as people have more personal responsibilities and less forced socialization (like high school or dorm life), they become more solitary.

However, I think that you have to be careful when using the term "witch" because what witch may mean now to modern day practioners is not necessarily what it has always meant. For example, I might call myself a witch now, where as back in the day, I would have called myself a fairy doctor, or a witch doctor. I think you touched on this some in your post, but I also think that it's an important distinction.

People who practiced positive magical workings (whether they be witch doctors, fairy doctors, shamans, soul-healers) were usually trusted and honored members of their society whom people sought out for advice and knowledge. In my experience, people who practice these forms of magic may live alone or in groups, and people frequently seek them out, kind of like the neighborhood occult shop. It's a business. I've seen this in many different cultures, and these people don't call themselves witches.

Traditionally the term "witch" was used to describe a negative magical workers. Why would you want to seek someone out if you knew that they were going to harm you or if they were the antithesis of your societal beliefs? :lol: I think that a lot of the times witches lived alone because they were viewed as or were "bad" people.


If by "traditionally", you mean in Christian culture, that was true in some times and some places, but the term witch originally had an overwhelmingly positive connotation. Witches were spiritual leaders and teachers.

[David19]

If by "traditionally", you mean in Christian culture, that was true in some times and some places, but the term witch originally had an overwhelmingly positive connotation. Witches were spiritual leaders and teachers.

Actually, the ancient Norse used to have witch hunts before Christianity, and burn them, witches were seen as the 'outsider', even in Greece and Rome, magic (or most magic) was illegal, and was seen as 'disrupting' the natural order of things. When Christian's 'came to power', they banned witch hunts in England for being too 'pagan'.

So, i doubt witches were 'spiritual leaders and teachers', Druids, in Celtic countries, were but they're not witches.

[~Elise~]

If by "traditionally", you mean in Christian culture, that was true in some times and some places, but the term witch originally had an overwhelmingly positive connotation. Witches were spiritual leaders and teachers.

No, it didn't have positive connotation. But yes, the wise women were the teachers and leaders, but did not call themselves a witch.

Elise

[David19]

No, it didn't have positive connotation. But yes, the wise women were the teachers and leaders, but did not call themselves a witch.

Elise

That's exactly what i thought, weren't the 'wise women' more like cunning folk or something?.

[RainInanna]

I'm generally pretty solitary, I find in the past few years I haven't even felt that I identified with other local Pagans. For many of them, Paganism is what they believe, but not something they live. For me, just believing rather than practicing feels quite empty. I long to talk to other serious practitioners but they seem few and far between. They have a weekly coffee social, whereas I'm wanting to have a weekly circle and ritual instead.

[~Elise~]

That's exactly what i thought, weren't the 'wise women' more like cunning folk or something?.

Yes--that was the term most used.

Elise

[angle kitsune]

all my life i isolated myself to protect myself and now yah I am not the one that will come up to a total stranger and talk to them like I have known them my whole life. and in my school if you don't talk much to everyone then you are on the outside. but I am happy spending time alone,I have all I need at the moment,my sisters,my dog and my computer..oh and the forests out side near by but soon it will be to cold to go out and talk to them. oh well

[Rowan Darkmoon]

If by "traditionally", you mean in Christian culture, that was true in some times and some places, but the term witch originally had an overwhelmingly positive connotation. Witches were spiritual leaders and teachers.

Please list an example of a culture where the specific term "witch" was used with a positive connotation, aside from the Anglo-Saxon "witega" which there is some debate about. :)

My point in my first post was that there are people who practice what we would now call "witchcraft" that did not call themselves "witches" because this term had a negative connotation. This does not mean that they did not practice magical arts, or that what they practiced did not have a positive and benefical connotation.

These people might use the term "cunning folk," "fairy doctor," "witch doctor," "shaman," "soul-healer," etc... but in my studies they did not call themselves witches, and would refer to the people they fought against as "witches" or "sorcerors."

This has held true in Irish mythology, Greek mythology, South American practices, African practices, and aboriginal groups in the South Pacific including the Trobriand Islanders (before the advent of Christianity there). "Good" people who practice the magical arts are called anything but "witch" and "bad" people who practice the magical arts are called "witch" or "sorceror." Maybe it's the translator's semantics and personal biases, but this is what I've found so far.

[Carla O'Harris]

No, it didn't have positive connotation. But yes, the wise women were the teachers and leaders, but did not call themselves a witch.

Elise


Umm, YES, they did. It WAS a positive connotation. When my book comes out, you can read all about it. An analysis of the context in which the word is used shows that the wicca/wicce were spiritual teachers and warders of holy spaces. One has bought modern propaganda if one thinks otherwise. It is the Church that changed that. The words themselves have a positive connotation originally.

Burnings happened with those suspected of maleficia, as illustrated by Gullveig, who was a strife-bearer with an yfil history. Norse-Germanic people looked upon maleficia in the same way they looked upon murder --- dishonorable and punishable by law. But seidkonas and spakonas were honored. But consider --- anyone gets pissed at a doctor engaged in malpractice.

[Carla O'Harris]

Please list an example of a culture where the specific term "witch" was used with a positive connotation, aside from the Anglo-Saxon "witega" which there is some debate about. :)

My point in my first post was that there are people who practice what we would now call "witchcraft" that did not call themselves "witches" because this term had a negative connotation. This does not mean that they did not practice magical arts, or that what they practiced did not have a positive and benefical connotation.

These people might use the term "cunning folk," "fairy doctor," "witch doctor," "shaman," "soul-healer," etc... but in my studies they did not call themselves witches, and would refer to the people they fought against as "witches" or "sorcerors."

This has held true in Irish mythology, Greek mythology, South American practices, African practices, and aboriginal groups in the South Pacific including the Trobriand Islanders (before the advent of Christianity there). "Good" people who practice the magical arts are called anything but "witch" and "bad" people who practice the magical arts are called "witch" or "sorceror." Maybe it's the translator's semantics and personal biases, but this is what I've found so far.



Anglo-Saxon "Wicca" / "Wicce". As this was pronounced "witcha", it is the direct ancestor of "witch". The term can be found in several Anglo-Saxon contexts in a positive connotation, as spiritual leaders.

There were many, many terms used all over Europe. Once the Church had demonized the term "witch", other terms were called upon --- cunningfolk, etc.

[Tanya]

I don't find that at all. I think witches have been ostrasized, but we need to take it back. I LOVE being involved in my community, and I LOVe when people hear I'm a community orient person BECAUSE of my Wiccan beliefs. I want people to know who I am and say "Wow, she's nice and works hard to make the world a better place.. so that's what a witch is like...'

I believe deeply in engagement with the world and being part of a community.

Most of my neighbors don't believe what I do, but I try to show respect for their beliefs, so that my own will be taken more seriously than they have in the past.

Meanwhile we put out bush fires, patch up the schoolhouse,try to get broadband into our town, plant trees, and look after stray animals... together...

[jcldragon]

When I perform Stand-Up Comedy with the Ding Dong Show, Don Barris never fails to introduce my act by telling everybody in the room, that I am a Witch, and that he's seen me talk with trees...

[~Elise~]

Umm, YES, they did. It WAS a positive connotation. When my book comes out, you can read all about it. An analysis of the context in which the word is used shows that the wicca/wicce were spiritual teachers and warders of holy spaces. One has bought modern propaganda if one thinks otherwise. It is the Church that changed that. The words themselves have a positive connotation originally.

Burnings happened with those suspected of maleficia, as illustrated by Gullveig, who was a strife-bearer with an yfil history. Norse-Germanic people looked upon maleficia in the same way they looked upon murder --- dishonorable and punishable by law. But seidkonas and spakonas were honored. But consider --- anyone gets pissed at a doctor engaged in malpractice.

I'll be interested to read the book when it comes out, but from my research--witch was not what they called themselves. Herb-women, Mid-wives, healers yes. So, it'll be interesting to where you've found these sources of information that haven't been written about before. Witch was not in widespread usage before the 'burning times' from what I've seen and read-at least in a positive light.

Elise

[Malcolm]

I get jealous of "normal" people sometimes. So in that respect sometimes I distance myself from them.

I get what your saying about topics of conversation though. most of the time the things they seem to want to talk about or what they think matter...I just can't get into. Its sh!tty I know but sometimes I just sit there and think "Do you remember last time we talked...you told me this exact same story. Hasn't anything more interesting happened to you in a month?"

Tell you the truth though, I don't like most pagans I meet either...I guess I just meet the wierd ones. Its kinda slim pickins round these parts anyway.

[Carla O'Harris]

I'll be interested to read the book when it comes out, but from my research--witch was not what they called themselves. Herb-women, Mid-wives, healers yes. So, it'll be interesting to where you've found these sources of information that haven't been written about before. Witch was not in widespread usage before the 'burning times' from what I've seen and read-at least in a positive light.

Elise


Hi Elise,

I agree with you that all of those other terms in one form or another were present. I'm just adding notation of significant OE (Anglo-Saxon) usage of the term in a positive context.

[Rudas Starblaze]

If by "traditionally", you mean in Christian culture, that was true in some times and some places, but the term witch originally had an overwhelmingly positive connotation. Witches were spiritual leaders and teachers.


ok seriously. when are you gonna put away the wiccan crack pipe?

[Carla O'Harris]

ok seriously. when are you gonna put away the wiccan crack pipe?

If you have no other argument than insulting slander, why should I bother responding to you at all?

You aren't attempting to engage in reasoned discourse here, but using persuasion on the basis of innuendo, implying that I am some kind of unreasoned adherent to some outdated conception, rather than basing my conclusions on examination of the sources themselves.

As I indicated, my conclusions are based upon an examination of sources which will appear in my upcoming book. It is not based upon stereotype, but an examination of the word "wicca" as it appears in an Old English (Anglo-Saxon) context.

So unless you have something more substantial to say than merely trying to manipulate stereotypes based on what's "in", we literally have nothing to say to each other, no offense. I do not base what I say upon what's "in" or what's "popular" to say presently in the Wiccan or Pagan community, but rather upon a studied consideration of the matter at hand.

[Rudas Starblaze]

If you have no other argument than insulting slander, why should I bother responding to you at all?

You aren't attempting to engage in reasoned discourse here, but using persuasion on the basis of innuendo, implying that I am some kind of unreasoned adherent to some outdated conception, rather than basing my conclusions on examination of the sources themselves.

As I indicated, my conclusions are based upon an examination of sources which will appear in my upcoming book. It is not based upon stereotype, but an examination of the word "wicca" as it appears in an Old English (Anglo-Saxon) context.

So unless you have something more substantial to say than merely trying to manipulate stereotypes based on what's "in", we literally have nothing to say to each other, no offense. I do not base what I say upon what's "in" or what's "popular" to say presently in the Wiccan or Pagan community, but rather upon a studied consideration of the matter at hand.


just what i was waiting for from you. your confusion of the word "witch" with "wicca".:lol: you do realize that wicca is a "white lighter" term brought on far later in attempts to make the term witch sound less offensive dont you? no offense, but i as well as several other members have noticed that you are trying to turn the term "witch" into the term "wicca" which if you ever payed close attention to your studies you would notice they are two very, very different concepts.

im a witch, not a wiccan, and damn proud of it.:yayah:

[Carla O'Harris]

I do pay attention to my studies. What you might pay attention to is the fact that the word "witch" descends from wicca/wicce, period. Therefore, the connotations of the Anglo-Saxon wicca/wicce are of prime importance.

You are assuming that I am graphing the "Wica" of Gardner's experience onto all previous practitioners. That is an incorrect assumption. The usage of the word "witch" post-Anglo-Saxon times does take on a far more sinister character, as a result of a mainly positive ambivalence being tilted and twisted into a slanderous representation equivalent to monstrous bloodsuckers by the Church.

I do not claim that the preChristian wicca/wicce practiced Gardner's cult. I do claim that they were seen as spiritual teachers and held a high status, which is based on examination of the documents independently of Gardner. Once such an independent examination has been done, comparisons between the original situation and Gardner's situation may be conducted to see how much they have in common.

[David19]

Doreen Vialiente wrote an article wrote an article on the 'derivation of the word witch' (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101000000-20051231235959/http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos620.htm)which i think is interesting, i think she concludes that Wicca never meant 'wise person', i'm not sure if that helps anyone, but she did know Gardner (and therefore she's probably more knowledgable about Wicca and other things than anyone on the internet or off).

[Carla O'Harris]

It's probably cognate with wig, meaning "sacred", and by derivation, an "idol". It is an inflection of "weoh" (Icelandic "ve"), "unspeakably holy or awe-inspiring".

[Rudas Starblaze]

I do pay attention to my studies. What you might pay attention to is the fact that the word "witch" descends from wicca/wicce, period. Therefore, the connotations of the Anglo-Saxon wicca/wicce are of prime importance.

You are assuming that I am graphing the "Wica" of Gardner's experience onto all previous practitioners. That is an incorrect assumption. The usage of the word "witch" post-Anglo-Saxon times does take on a far more sinister character, as a result of a mainly positive ambivalence being tilted and twisted into a slanderous representation equivalent to monstrous bloodsuckers by the Church.

I do not claim that the preChristian wicca/wicce practiced Gardner's cult. I do claim that they were seen as spiritual teachers and held a high status, which is based on examination of the documents independently of Gardner. Once such an independent examination has been done, comparisons between the original situation and Gardner's situation may be conducted to see how much they have in common.


the terms "wicca" and "wicce" are gender definitions (male and female) for witches used slightly before Gerald Gardner (as in possibly 100 to 200 years ago). to prove the terms "wicca/wica" or "wicce/wice" are older then the term "witch", even in the anglo-saxon culture, you will have to have solid, un-disputable references to books that were written pre-Gardarian, as in atleast 100 to 300 years old if not older. the King James version of the bible used the term "witch" several times over and never once mentioned the terms "wicca" or "wicce" and that version was completed and released in 1612. not to mention very few people could even read or write 150 years ago unless their families had money and could afford an education, even father back then that was even worse. quite typically witches were outcasts of society and being away from society greatly limited ones chance of obtaining an education. spells were chanted in ryhmes for a reason, because they were easier to remember for a person who couldnt read or write. so im interested in where exactly you recieved your information and the references to the book you claim to be writting.

ETA: and not to mention the "keep silent" code of the witches which used to mean "dont tell anyone the secrets of your craft period" in loosly put modern terms. so why would any true witch of old even think about writting something (if they could) that would incriminate themselves if found by witch hunters?

[Carla O'Harris]

Dear Sir,

I really don't mean to embarass you, but you might want to look at what you're saying a little closer. When I say "Anglo-Saxon", I am not using it in the loose way it is sometimes referred to in modern times to mean anything English. I am referring to Anglo-Saxon Germanic tribes who still spoke the language Anglo-Saxon, sometimes referred to as "Old English", which is a Germanic language that has very little in common with our modern English or even the English of the 1400's or 1600's. When I say there are Anglo-Saxon documents, I am discussing documents written in the time period from about 800 to 1100 A.D., far in advance of the witch-hunt days, and far, far in advance of Gardner.

I am not presently discussing what the words "Wicca/Wicce" meant to Gardner. I am discussing what these words meant to the natives who created/inherited these words. So while it may look like we're having an argument, we're actually discussing two very different and widely separated historical periods. I'm sorry if there was confusion in that regard.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I am not presently discussing what the words "Wicca/Wicce" meant to Gardner. I am discussing what these words meant to the natives who created/inherited these words. So while it may look like we're having an argument, we're actually discussing two very different and widely separated historical periods. I'm sorry if there was confusion in that regard.

I didn't get this either about your first post until your second post, and assumed at first that you were using witch as a blanket statement for all magical practioners before the advent of Christianity, as it is now common to use the term for generic magical practioners.

After you clarified, then I understood that we were dealing with a semantic issue as you were referring to it in a specific time and place in it's original context. :lol:

I think there is some debate about this, yes? I've seen a lot of translations for the word weg or wig, and each one seems to contradict itself?? The most recent that I've read about translates it to be the ancestor of "awaken" or "wake." It's been confusing me lately, so if you could point me in the direction of some alternate resources, I would be appreciative. :)

It makes me wonder why the term was demonized then?? Is it only mistranslation and the subsequent advent of Christianity, or was it something else? Now, I'm just blabbing to myself, so everyone can feel free to ignore me.

[Carla O'Harris]

While there is some difference of opinion about the exact root, what is not at issue are the written contexts where we find the word, which are open to analysis and examination to determine their context. In those writings, witches are connected with ritual activity at wells and groves, referred to as teachers, compared to the Magi, and associated with the summoning of spirits.

The older opinion was that the root of wicca\wicce was from a form meaning "to bend" --- essentially the root of the word "wicker".

The stronger of the newer opinions is that it comes from wig \ weoh --- unspeakably holy --- and cognate with Old Norse ve, which means the same thing but also refers to the holy grounds of the temple district and grove.

As it turns out, both may be correct, as wicker may have been used to designate out the holy grounds.

The term was demonized because of the connection between pagan-spirituality and witches, making witches effectively the only remaining priestesses of the preChristian religions, and therefore direct competitors.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Dear Sir,

I really don't mean to embarass you, but you might want to look at what you're saying a little closer. When I say "Anglo-Saxon", I am not using it in the loose way it is sometimes referred to in modern times to mean anything English. I am referring to Anglo-Saxon Germanic tribes who still spoke the language Anglo-Saxon, sometimes referred to as "Old English", which is a Germanic language that has very little in common with our modern English or even the English of the 1400's or 1600's. When I say there are Anglo-Saxon documents, I am discussing documents written in the time period from about 800 to 1100 A.D., far in advance of the witch-hunt days, and far, far in advance of Gardner.

I am not presently discussing what the words "Wicca/Wicce" meant to Gardner. I am discussing what these words meant to the natives who created/inherited these words. So while it may look like we're having an argument, we're actually discussing two very different and widely separated historical periods. I'm sorry if there was confusion in that regard.

so really your just using the Germanic Anglo-Saxon spelling "wicca/wicce" with out the translation to "witch" (also leaving out accent/dialect differentials). i get ya. but im still interested in where you get your information that witches had a positive connotation. from what i understand, animal and human sacrifices to their deities was a common practice in the Anglo-Saxon witchcraft traditions. which i understand completely was a good thing to them (and me), but to other beliefs and cultures at the time and to todays standards was not a good thing. *shugs* i dunno, unless you post some links to credible resorces from which you get your info........