Norse Gods and Homosexuality

[Arion]

I have been feeling called by a few Norse deities, and it feels like something I should pursue. Still, I wanted to make sure the Norse deities don't have any issues with homosexuals, since I am one, lol. So I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject.

[Mjollnir]

I have been feeling called by a few Norse deities, and it feels like something I should pursue. Still, I wanted to make sure the Norse deities don't have any issues with homosexuals

Nope.


So I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject.


Nope, knock your socks off. As long as you honor them proper, who cares what your orientation is right? I sure don't, if anything homosexuality was frowned upon back in the day...but the answer is a little more than that... but this is 2006 not 793 so take that for what it's worth.

[David19]

Even though i'm not Asatru, i agree with Mjollnir, as i don't think the Norse deities had any issues with homosexuality (the people may have but i don't think the gods did or do), i'm not an expert of Norse lore or 'mythology', but don't some of the gods have homosexual relationships or sex (like don't Loki and Odin have sex, and i think Loki once dressed up as a woman and got pregnant by a giant or jotnar or something, is that right?).

[Arion]

Nope.
Nope, knock your socks off. As long as you honor them proper, who cares what your orientation is right? I sure don't, if anything homosexuality was frowned upon back in the day...but the answer is a little more than that... but this is 2006 not 793 so take that for what it's worth.
Thanks, I appreciate it :)

like don't Loki and Odin have sex, and i think Loki once dressed up as a woman and got pregnant by a giant or jotnar or something, is that right?
Whoa, these Gods are kinkier than i thought!! ;)
Which can only be a good thing.

[Garm]

like don't Loki and Odin have sex

I think your're thinking of the arguement where Odin and Loki outed each other during a feast at Asgard. Very bad form, it was one of the events that led to Loki being put in bondage untill Ragnarok.

The Vanir had rather permissive atitudes towards sexuality and gay sex was part of some of their rituals. The Aesir on the other hand were a little more uptight about it. Odin himself, however, was taught vanic practices by his SO Frigga. Any serious magician should be more opened minded than his peer group and Odin was as serious as you get. What he did with his training no ones quite sure, the specifics of whatever incident that Loki was taunting him about have been lost to posterity.

And Odin wasn't above joking about homosexuality either.

During an arguement with the Thunder God:

Odin: I've got a ring for you, Thor

[Insert pause for the time it takes Thor to get it]

Thor: [freaking out badly at the suggestion] No more hateful words have I ever heard

[Carla O'Harris]

Note : That incident probably occurred between Loki and Thor. Yes, yes, I know that "Harbard" is one of Odins heiti, but you have to look at the context of the entire poem, and understand that Loki is not above posing as someone else. Thor refers to him as a young runt, not a greybeard as he claims to be. Harbard makes direct reference to events that Thor and Loki shared --- almost the precise same language --- and Harbard taunts Thor with the same exact language, almost the same wording, as Loki does in Lokasenna. A significant portion of the bad rap Odin gets as a god comes from the rampant misinterpretation of this poem being a flyting between Odin and Thor. Flytings properly belong to Loki, and it is indeed Loki speaking in the poem.

I know that some have interpreted the line about the ring referring to homosexuality, but personally, having read the poem, I highly doubt it.

However, it is clear that many of the gods appeared in drag.
Thor appears in drag in Thrymskvida, Loki alludes in Lokasenna to an episode where Odin appeared as a volva (and practiced seidthe, which was considered ergi, although the precise meaning of this in context is unclear), Saxo refers to an incident where Odin appears as a woman, Loki actually gets pregnant by both Angrboda and by a horse, and Frodi (Freyr) crossdresses in Saxo. That's four crossdressing gods.

There was also a public-private thing in Germanic culture. As long as you maintained your public decorum and honor, what occurred in private tended to stay in private.

[Mjollnir]

Even though i'm not Asatru, i agree with Mjollnir, as i don't think the Norse deities had any issues with homosexuality (the people may have but i don't think the gods did or do), i'm not an expert of Norse lore or 'mythology', but don't some of the gods have homosexual relationships or sex (like don't Loki and Odin have sex, and i think Loki once dressed up as a woman and got pregnant by a giant or jotnar or something, is that right?).



Loki bore Sleipnir by the horse Svathilfari in the story of the creation of the Asgard Wall, Loki and Odin did not sleep together. I think you are thinking of Thor dressing up as Freya to get his hammer back in ThrymskviÞa.

[Mjollnir]

I think your're thinking of the arguement where Odin and Loki outed each other during a feast at Asgard.

Loki was ripping on Odin for engaging in seidth which was considered womanly.

[Seshata]

Chatting to a Heathen friend (who's been so for many many years) the other day he told me how there is a difference between the seidth stuff and also something that the warriors in Iceland viewed as 'soft' homosexuality, when they made fun of those who they viewed as that. I can't unfortunately remember the name of it (I think it began with an 'e' and was a short word), but I thought I'd pop in and mention this.

BB

Seshata

[Garm]

Note : That incident probably occurred between Loki and Thor. Yes, yes, I know that "Harbard" is one of Odins heiti, but you have to look at the context of the entire poem, and understand that Loki is not above posing as someone else. Thor refers to him as a young runt, not a greybeard as he claims to be. Harbard makes direct reference to events that Thor and Loki shared --- almost the precise same language --- and Harbard taunts Thor with the same exact language, almost the same wording, as Loki does in Lokasenna. A significant portion of the bad rap Odin gets as a god comes from the rampant misinterpretation of this poem being a flyting between Odin and Thor. Flytings properly belong to Loki, and it is indeed Loki speaking in the poem.


What concievable business would Loki have as a ferryman? The ferryman who conducts the dead is a widespread figure in Indo European traditions and Odin is said to have come with a boat for the deceased Sinfjötli in the Volsunga Saga. As well the Norse practiced ship cremation, sending the craft off pilotless for the helm to be taken.

Thor is too far away to see what Harbard looks like, and could very well be a runt for all Thor knows. Harbard did not take kindly to being mistaken for one of the more mundane types of ferryman.

As to the similiarity of Loki and Harbard that could just as easily be a recycling of literary material.

[Garm]

Chatting to a Heathen friend (who's been so for many many years) the other day he told me how there is a difference between the seidth stuff and also something that the warriors in Iceland viewed as 'soft' homosexuality, when they made fun of those who they viewed as that. I can't unfortunately remember the name of it (I think it began with an 'e' and was a short word), but I thought I'd pop in and mention this.

BB

Seshata


I think your'e thinking about ergi, see Carla's note above

[Garm]

Loki was ripping on Odin for engaging in seidth which was considered womanly.

I took another quick look at the Lokasenna.

There was a bit of an issue with of the form Odin took [he was a shape shifter, wasn't he?] when he was engaging in it. Carla says it may have involved cross dressing but a guy with a beard does not make a convincing transvestite.

[Carla O'Harris]

No, no, no, no, no. An in-depth analysis of the poem demonstrates that this must be Loki. That Odin had a function as a ferryman is not at issue, as he has a heiti that speaks to that function. Harbard brags about adultery and stealing wives from their husbands (something Odin specifically counsels against in Havamal), admits to paying back evil for good, stirring up strife, shows intimate knowledge of Thor and Loki's adventures with Fjalar/Utgard-Loki, alludes to rescuing Idunn, Loki's betrayal of Thor in the fight with Geirrod, adultery with Sif, and wishing Thor to be taken by all the evil powers. It's Loki.

Where is the precedent for such evil words to be exchanged between father and son? And Thor threatens to kill his opponent. What is the mythical precedent for any kind of murderous tension of this kind between father and son? There is none. But there is plenty of tension between Loki and Thor, and all the incidents match incidents Loki is known for. No heathen audience would ever have accepted Harbard as Odin. They would have known from all the allusions that this was Loki, posing as one of Odin's bynames.

[Carla O'Harris]

I took another quick look at the Lokasenna.

There was a bit of an issue with of the form Odin took [he was a shape shifter, wasn't he?] when he was engaging in it. Carla says it may have involved cross dressing but a guy with a beard does not make a convincing transvestite.


Good point. Maybe Transsexual would be a better term then.

[CzechWoods]

marking thread for further exploration laters (when i am back)

:wave:

great topic, btw :hailmol:

[Garm]

Harbard brags about adultery and stealing wives from their husbands (something Odin specifically counsels against in Havamal),

He's counseling Lodfafnir. That sort of behaviour could get Lod killed. Odin could get away with it, of course.


admits to paying back evil for good

From the Havamal

'Twas Gunnlod who gave me on a golden throne
a draught of the glorious mead,
but with poor reward did I pay her back
for her true and troubled heart.

A ring-oath Odin I trow had taken --
how shall one trust his troth?
'twas he who stole the mead from Suttung,
and Gunnlod caused to weep."

Also stirring up strife, in the sense of causing wars among men as opposed to cat fights amongst the Gods, and taking part in the battles ["I in the army was, which was hither sent, war-banners to raise, lances to redden."] just where is that in Loki's dossier? The only army I have heard of him serving in is the one he leads at Ragnarok

The poem sounds more like a couple of kids talking about busting caps on each other rather than a serious exchange. Thor's getting upset because he's getting the worst of it, Odin is just amused. It's a myth, a literary device for contrasting the different personalities of the two deities.

[Garm finishes IRL nite shift]

[Carla O'Harris]

It's not a "literary device". It's an Eddic Poem about a mythological event, the meeting of two very important figures, and the flyting they had. It is absolutely absurd to propose that father and son exchanged these words.

Harbardsljod 40 makes reference to Loki's participation in the battle during the Geirrod episode : geir at rjóða. geir...rjóða. Thorsdrapa makes clear that this was a battle with giants, and that Thjalfi led the army Thor brought with him. (Þjálfi, með sinni ýta : Thialfi, amidst the company of men).

And how does this contrast the character of these two figures? Thor is honorable, while Odin is a complete scumbag, traitor, and adulterer? Those adjectives fit ANOTHER character in the mythos, and his name is Loki. To interpret those as Odin is to slander the All-Father.

[Philosophia]

Found these and thought it might be relevant:
http://www.seidh.org/articles/sex-status-seidh.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayvik.html

[Eldred Grimm]

you might ck out "Asatru Q " I dont have the link but it is a Email group set up for Asatru Gay folks its a good group

[Mjollnir]

It's not a "literary device". It's an Eddic Poem about a mythological event, the meeting of two very important figures, and the flyting they had. It is absolutely absurd to propose that father and son exchanged these words.

Those 2 important figures being Thor and Odin, it is absurd to think otherwise.



And how does this contrast the character of these two figures? Thor is honorable, while Odin is a complete scumbag, traitor, and adulterer? Those adjectives fit ANOTHER character in the mythos, and his name is Loki. To interpret those as Odin is to slander the All-Father.


Exactly, if you knew anything about Odin you would know the adjectives you used to describe him in a questionable manner are absolutely true. I also know of Odinists who agree with those adjectives as well.

A traitor? in Lokasenna Loki accused and Odin admitted about changing the luck of one in battle who prayed to Odin only to have him change his mind on a whim, he is notorius for doing that.

Adulterer? Do you really want to go there? Odin again was notorious for "gettin around"

A scumbag? See comment #1 and a ton of lore references.

[David19]

It is absolutely absurd to propose that father and son exchanged these words.

I just wanted to comment on this, i haven't read the Edda's much, but from arguing with both my dad and my mum, i can tell you that i can say a lot that people may think is rude and i've called them things, that i probably can't say on a PG-thread (in case kids are reading), so even if Thor and Odin did insult each other, most teens and parents do (i'm not saying Thor was a teen when it happened, but just trying to say most parents and their kids argue and kids will always insult their parents, it's our job, LOL!, plus you should see what my mum and grandma say when they argue!).

Anway, just wanted to add that :).

[Æon Flux]

The Vanir did not have anything against homosexuality. But the Vanir were also very female friendly and the goddesses were very strong. As for the Aesir...

Well, let's first understand that the Vanir were in general gods and goddesses off fertility, love and the sea, and the Aesir were in general war gods. (Of coarse there are some Vanir related goddesses who have their cruel side, Skadi being one of them).

So it is very natural that the Vanir doesn't really mind any kind of love, as long as it is fruitful and of free will. The Aesir on the other hand... well... as the Aesir were worshiped following the Vanir (or so it is believed) while most of the world moved into a more patriarctical structure the views on homosexuality of the gods developed into something less accepted.

Did that make any sense at all? Oh well, I'm tired. I'll just edit tomorrow when I'm alert and my brain isn't half shut-off.

[Mjollnir]

What was cruel about Skadhi in your eyes?

[Æon Flux]

Well, she isn't really cruel, but she does have a cruel side, with her thirst for avenging her father. Sure it's actually more human then cruel, but I guess the language barrier kicks in here, I could explain my thoughts so much better in Swedish. Oh well... :lol:

Although considtering that Skadi/Skadhi (or Skade as we call her here) was part giant I guess her tendance to be viewed as the winter goddess of hunt and revenge, and a sometimes cruel one, at least according to the myths you hear around here. So, she is in some ways no more cruel then any other goddess of the vanir. Cruel, I guess, was the wrong word to use.

[Carla O'Harris]

Those 2 important figures being Thor and Odin, it is absurd to think otherwise.





Exactly, if you knew anything about Odin you would know the adjectives you used to describe him in a questionable manner are absolutely true. I also know of Odinists who agree with those adjectives as well.

A traitor? in Lokasenna Loki accused and Odin admitted about changing the luck of one in battle who prayed to Odin only to have him change his mind on a whim, he is notorius for doing that.

Adulterer? Do you really want to go there? Odin again was notorious for "gettin around"

A scumbag? See comment #1 and a ton of lore references.



The people who felt Odin could be a traitor were generally warriors, who had counted on his help, and didn't like the way fate turned. The general explanation was that Odin took the best of warriors for himself. Others didn't like this, and expressed it bitterly. But the idea that the All-Father was not coming from a place of good-will I find ridiculous.

The ONLY reason this poem is identified as a flyting between Odin and Thor is because of the identification of "Harbard" as an Odin-heiti. If one is not going to closely examine the character of the figure in question and rely solely on name-identifications, one is guilty of precisely the kinds of things people (falsely) accuse Rydberg of doing. And if it seems beyond Loki to offer up a false name, one might want to go back and study Loki some more.

[Garm]

It's not a "literary device". It's an Eddic Poem about a mythological event, the meeting of two very important figures, and the flyting they had. It is absolutely absurd to propose that father and son exchanged these words.


By the time the Eddas were being composed the stock characters of Norse mythology had become fair game for creative story telling, centuraries before Marvel Comics offered up their pallid imitation.

If this is not the case then we are going to have a bit of challenge trying to decipher the spiritual meaning of Loki tying his testicles to a billy goats beard just to make Skadhi laugh.

[Carla O'Harris]

By the time the Eddas were being composed the stock characters of Norse mythology had become fair game for creative story telling, centuraries before Marvel Comics offered up their pallid imitation.

If this is not the case then we are going to have a bit of challenge trying to decipher the spiritual meaning of Loki tying his testicles to a billy goats beard just to make Skadhi laugh.


Respectfully, this is just an absurd statement to me. The poetic Eddas were composed in Viking times, not in Snorri's time, when heathenism was still strong. The mythic themes show strong commonalities with the Indo-European mythic themes of both the Vedas and Avesta. These were sacred stories. One didn't simply "make them up" like Thor Comics and leave it at that. This is not to say that new mythological episodes could not be generated, but they were fit into a general epic structure that was known, and which would reject anything terribly inconsistent with the characters.

As Loki often functions as a trickster character getting himself into a mess and then having to find some absurd way to get himself out of it, his episode with the goat is perfectly in character. And the fact of the matter is that Loki caused the entire mess, and so was obligated to do anything it took to make Skadi laugh and therefore protect the Aesir from her wrath and kin-obligation for blood vengeance.

[Garm]

Respectfully, this is just an absurd statement to me. The poetic Eddas were composed in Viking times, not in Snorri's time, when heathenism was still strong.

The vikings didn't have the same craven atitude towards their gods as some other cultures, their primary faith was in a good strong sword arm. That is why Odin tells people not to count on Him, he values their self reliance. The vikings were not afraid to laugh at their gods and their foibles. There is a sense of humour running through the Eddas which shows their concept of sacredness only extended so far.


The mythic themes show strong commonalities with the Indo-European mythic themes of both the Vedas and Avesta.

These mythic themes amount to little more than motifs which are so mixed up its usually impossible to confidently reconstruct the protomyth upon which they are based. The Vedas I'm not familiar with but beyond a couple of deities and the end of the world as we know it the Avesta has precious little in common with the Eddas.


These were sacred stories. One didn't simply "make them up" like Thor Comics and leave it at that.

A sacred story that potrays the god's own champion as hiding himself in the mitten of a giant? Alrighteee...


This is not to say that new mythological episodes could not be generated, but they were fit into a general epic structure that was known, and which would reject anything terribly inconsistent with the characters.


If it would have rejected anything inconsistent then how could a misatribution of Odin to the role of the ferryman have arisen in the first place?

Mjolliner has represented the mainstream of Asatru well enough. It's your aproach that looks to be revisionist.

[Mjollnir]

Well, she isn't really cruel, but she does have a cruel side, with her thirst for avenging her father. Sure it's actually more human then cruel, but I guess the language barrier kicks in here, I could explain my thoughts so much better in Swedish. Oh well... :lol:

Although considtering that Skadi/Skadhi (or Skade as we call her here) was part giant I guess her tendance to be viewed as the winter goddess of hunt and revenge, and a sometimes cruel one, at least according to the myths you hear around here. So, she is in some ways no more cruel then any other goddess of the vanir. Cruel, I guess, was the wrong word to use.


No problem. :viking:

Definitely goddess of hunt and winter, vengeance maybe but as you know the vengeance part was tempered. I always am interested to hear peoples opinions on her as I have an affinity for her and have a few kin dedicated to her, thanks!!

[Mjollnir]

A sacred story that potrays the god's own champion as hiding himself in the mitten of a giant? Alrighteee...


HEY HEY HEY!!!!!! enough already Garm, he wasn't hiding!!! he was using cover and concealment to hide his tactical position!!!!!!!

[Mjollnir]

The people who felt Odin could be a traitor were generally warriors, who had counted on his help, and didn't like the way fate turned. The general explanation was that Odin took the best of warriors for himself. Others didn't like this, and expressed it bitterly. But the idea that the All-Father was not coming from a place of good-will I find ridiculous.

Didn't like the way fate turned? It is in the lore that Odin himself screwed people out of victory that he promised them on a whim and coming from a place of good will??? We are talking about Odin you know, nothing he did was due to good will but to necessity.



The ONLY reason this poem is identified as a flyting between Odin and Thor is because of the identification of "Harbard" as an Odin-heiti. If one is not going to closely examine the character of the figure in question and rely solely on name-identifications, one is guilty of precisely the kinds of things people (falsely) accuse Rydberg of doing. And if it seems beyond Loki to offer up a false name, one might want to go back and study Loki some more.


Ok, so the entire heathen community has it wrong sans you and Vic? Well, maybe Vic, I do not know what you consider yourself to begin with,heathen,wiccan apologist,fundamentalist?

[Carla O'Harris]

The vikings didn't have the same craven atitude towards their gods as some other cultures, their primary faith was in a good strong sword arm. That is why Odin tells people not to count on Him, he values their self reliance. The vikings were not afraid to laugh at their gods and their foibles. There is a sense of humour running through the Eddas which shows their concept of sacredness only extended so far.



These mythic themes amount to little more than motifs which are so mixed up its usually impossible to confidently reconstruct the protomyth upon which they are based. The Vedas I'm not familiar with but beyond a couple of deities and the end of the world as we know it the Avesta has precious little in common with the Eddas.



A sacred story that potrays the god's own champion as hiding himself in the mitten of a giant? Alrighteee...



If it would have rejected anything inconsistent then how could a misatribution of Odin to the role of the ferryman have arisen in the first place?

Mjolliner has represented the mainstream of Asatru well enough. It's your aproach that looks to be revisionist.


I don't give a shit about the mainstream Asatru tradition. Most in the "religion of homework" don't do a hel of a lot of homework, so that's irrelevant.


The Scandinavian / Germanic folk did not have "craven" attitudes towards their gods, but they did have a deep sense of holiness that it is important not to forget. How much this is reflected in the pirates who went off a'viking is another question altogether, but that it was found in the temple districts and amongst the skalds is without question.


The Vedas I'm not familiar with but beyond a couple of deities and the end of the world as we know it the Avesta has precious little in common with the Eddas.

No offense, but that's a statement about your level of familiarity, not the facts. I don't expect most Asatruars to be familiar with these things, but they are there. They are far, far more than mixed-up motifs. There are strong correspondences between mythic figures in Iranian Zoroastrianism and Scandinavian religion ; in some cases, the figures are damn near identical. (Vayu-Vata, for example, is their version of Wotan-Odin.)

The Indo-European peoples not only shared a common language at one point, but a common mythology. These branched off as with the languages, but the common motifs running through are strong indeed.

The reason that Thor hid in a glove was because he was facing a type of giant who was excellent at illusion. In fact, he wasn't inside a glove at all. If you read the story closely, the entire thing was illusion. It's quite a serious motif, although the telling of it is certainly filled with humor. The presence of humor does not negate the sacred context of the story itself.


I didn't state that Odin was misattributed as a ferryman. I said that was one of his attributes. I merely stated that in Harbardsljod, the ferryman is not Odin, but Loki, who is mimicking him.

[Carla O'Harris]

Didn't like the way fate turned? It is in the lore that Odin himself screwed people out of victory that he promised them on a whim and coming from a place of good will??? We are talking about Odin you know, nothing he did was due to good will but to necessity.

Bullshit. You slander your own god.




Ok, so the entire heathen community has it wrong sans you and Vic? Well, maybe Vic, I do not know what you consider yourself to begin with,heathen,wiccan apologist,fundamentalist?

There are many who acknowledge that Harbard is Loki. For example, Holtzmann and Bergmann.

Secondly, what the Hel makes the "heathen community" infallible? And how do you possibly summon the arrogance to speak for the "entire" heathen community? Don't be ridiculous.

[Mjollnir]

Bullshit. You slander your own god.

Slander? dont make me dust-off the glass case with the crystal-meth reference in it cupcake. If you read or knew anything about what Odin is about the words "good-will" are nowhere to be found, stick to the Authors Circle and your rants about wicca apologia.






There are many who acknowledge that Harbard is Loki. For example, Holtzmann and Bergmann.

Many? I see only 2. I know of a few who are very involved with Loki who will disagree, now if you wanted to rant about buckland or gardner you might have a leg to stand on.


Secondly, what the Hel makes the "heathen community" infallible? And how do you possibly summon the arrogance to speak for the "entire" heathen community? Don't be ridiculous.


The arrogance? It is arrogant to assume your undying dedication to Vic and the fact that mom and dad let you play in traffic which allows you to make outrageous statements that Odin is some benevolent god. I have nothing but respect for him but I do not disillusion myslef into believing he was some sort of loving god, remember the whetstone incident? If anyone is being ridiculous it is you my dear, but we have cxome to expect that from you.

[Mjollnir]

Secondly, what the Hel makes the "heathen community" infallible? And how do you possibly summon the arrogance to speak for the "entire" heathen community? Don't be ridiculous.


Let me elaborate on this a little more, how many heathens have you personally met and talked with face to face? Since the Northeast community is so close-knit I have been fortunate enough to meet and speak with damm near all of them and will be seeing them again in 2 weeks at the ECT, should be a hundred or so there. I think meeting,speaking with and learning from so many gives me the ability to call you out on your little rants. I am also fortunate enought o see quite a few of them on a monthly basis.

[Carla O'Harris]

I have a dedication to actually studying the lore, and drawing my conclusions from there, not from some Romantic German Odinist fantasy of 19th and 20th century Volkists trying to appropriate ancient Germanic-Scandinavian religion for their own modernist purposes. You slander Viktor Rydberg, but, a) he could spin circles around you, and b) you couldn't rebut him if you tried. Chances are you know damn little about him and just rattle off whatever your little Asa-clique you surround yourself has repeated.

Grimnisal 49 gives one of his names as Óski, Wish, he who grants wishes. That shows a giving nature. He believes that mild, giving, and brave men live the best, and that one should be glad and of good cheer one's whole life.

Just because he does what is necessary does not mean that he is not full of good will.

[Carla O'Harris]

Let me elaborate on this a little more, how many heathens have you personally met and talked with face to face? Since the Northeast community is so close-knit I have been fortunate enough to meet and speak with damm near all of them and will be seeing them again in 2 weeks at the ECT, should be a hundred or so there. I think meeting,speaking with and learning from so many gives me the ability to call you out on your little rants. I am also fortunate enought o see quite a few of them on a monthly basis.


Quite a few myself. Two of my friends have written books on the subject, I am working with one of them on several books on the subject at present, and a third friend is also writing a book on the topic.

You still don't have a place to speak for the "entire" community. You can speak for your little coterie, but not beyond that.

Secondly, not being a conformist, I really wouldn't give a rat's ass if the entire community did believe one way or another as truth is not a democracy, and groups of people often get very basic things wrong.

[Mjollnir]

I have a dedication to actually studying the lore, and drawing my conclusions from there

As do I princess, but I do not allow it to be watered down and muddied by other forms of religion as it is apparent you do, your conclusions are more like back alley palm readers.


not from some Romantic German Odinist fantasy of 19th and 20th century Volkists trying to appropriate ancient Germanic-Scandinavian religion for their own modernist purposes.

Easy with the big words Carla, your tongue is gonna get all twisty, and you want to really impress me? Say Romantic German Odinist 10 times really fast.




You slander Viktor Rydberg, but, a) he could spin circles around you, and b) you couldn't rebut him if you tried. Chances are you know damn little about him and just rattle off whatever your little Asa-clique you surround yourself has repeated.

a) Vic is dead so any running will be metaphorical,right? b) I do not need to rebut him as he does it perfectly well himself, and with you tagging along like a lost puppy behind him wagging your tail you are not helping his cause. Asa-clique? good one, I'll have to remember that, maybe we can get leather jackets made with some kind of insignia on the back, can you draw something up and send it to me?


Grimnisal 49 gives one of his names as Óski, Wish, he who grants wishes. That shows a giving nature. He believes that mild, giving, and brave men live the best, and that one should be glad and of good cheer one's whole life.

You are seriously on f**kin crack......a giving nature?...granting wishes? It is Odin, not friggin I Dream of Jeannie. Mild, giving men? the sagas are ripe with references to the exact opposite, look at Egil, he was an Odinist, can you give one instance where he was mild? or giving? he was brave as they get but c'mon now, your rants are getting more and more insane the longer you are off your me.......oops, dont want anoher PM telling me legal action will result.....better go put that helmet on before you get on your high horse again inc ase you fall off.


Just because he does what is necessary does not mean that he is not full of good will.


So like I said, tossing a whetstone in the air as 9 farmhands vie for it and they all have their throats cut by their scythes as they fight for it is "full of good will"? you my sweet are a nutjob.

[Mjollnir]

Quite a few myself. Two of my friends have written books on the subject, I am working with one of them on several books on the subject at present, and a third friend is also writing a book on the topic.

So? I know of the same amount writing books. I would advise against you helping them if you wish them to be taken seriously though.


You still don't have a place to speak for the "entire" community. You can speak for your little coterie, but not beyond that.

Come to next years ECT, see for yourself or is there a Ren Faire you need to go to?
DISCLAIMER: In no way am I poking fun at Rennies, it was the first thing that came to mind.


Secondly, not being a conformist, I really wouldn't give a rat's ass if the entire community did believe one way or another as truth is not a democracy, and groups of people often get very basic things wrong.

No, your a...what do you call yourself again? You were once a Wicca Aplogist, now your a Wiccan Fundamentalist...but you say thats in "jest"...whats next, a Wiccan Jihadist? But you know something? I loves you anyways, you are the perfect example of the kind of person I strive to not be like and hope oneday I never meet. I have met some real winners over the years but dayum you are something special.

[Carla O'Harris]

Regarding Odin's Good Will, here are just some of the Values he propagates in Havamal :

Be Hospitable. Be Good to Guests.
Moderation.
Realizing your own Fallibility.
Friendship.
Dignity Regardless of One's Wealth.
Giving/Generosity.
Laughter and Mirth.
Trust for the Trustworthy. Treachery for the Treasonous.
Simplicity. Enjoying the simple pleasures : a good fire, the sun, health.
Appreciation of the abilities of the handicapped.
Wisdom.
Regret over things done badly.
Abstaining from adultery.
Abstaining from alcoholism.
Openheartedness and Sharing.
Rejoicing in the Good and never at Evil.
Regarding an injury to any an injury to oneself.
Respect for the Old.
Helping the Indigent.



These are excellent, good values of good will. Sometimes necessity will make unfortunate things necessary, but it is nothing to rejoice over. Odin regrets the things he has done which have hurt others. He advises seeking the good.


In the Riddles of Gestumblindi, he makes it clear how much he marvels in the Natural Wonders and Creatures of creation.


Oh, yes, this is a god of tremendous good will. It so happens that many times to bring about a greater good he has had to sacrifice and do something he was not proud of, something necessary, but let his good will never be doubted.

[Æon Flux]

No problem. :viking:

Definitely goddess of hunt and winter, vengeance maybe but as you know the vengeance part was tempered. I always am interested to hear peoples opinions on her as I have an affinity for her and have a few kin dedicated to her, thanks!!

Well, just considtering how she is looked upon by the autors of the Swedish books I've read. But I've always felt a strong connection to Skade. She is a very big source of strength for me.

[Carla O'Harris]

As do I princess, but I do not allow it to be watered down and muddied by other forms of religion as it is apparent you do, your conclusions are more like back alley palm readers.



Easy with the big words Carla, your tongue is gonna get all twisty, and you want to really impress me? Say Romantic German Odinist 10 times really fast.





a) Vic is dead so any running will be metaphorical,right? b) I do not need to rebut him as he does it perfectly well himself, and with you tagging along like a lost puppy behind him wagging your tail you are not helping his cause. Asa-clique? good one, I'll have to remember that, maybe we can get leather jackets made with some kind of insignia on the back, can you draw something up and send it to me?



You are seriously on f**kin crack......a giving nature?...granting wishes? It is Odin, not friggin I Dream of Jeannie. Mild, giving men? the sagas are ripe with references to the exact opposite, look at Egil, he was an Odinist, can you give one instance where he was mild? or giving? he was brave as they get but c'mon now, your rants are getting more and more insane the longer you are off your me.......oops, dont want anoher PM telling me legal action will result.....better go put that helmet on before you get on your high horse again inc ase you fall off.




So like I said, tossing a whetstone in the air as 9 farmhands vie for it and they all have their throats cut by their scythes as they fight for it is "full of good will"? you my sweet are a nutjob.


They were jotunns, fool.

As far as mild and generous men living the best lives, you might try reading this excellent poem called "Havamal". It's Odin's words to men, written in classic heathen times, not a historical saga written in the 1200's.


And you have proven my point that you cannot rebut Rydberg, so anything you say about him I will take as the words of someone incredibly ignorant.

I don't water down my readings of the lore with other religions. I keep strictly within the guidelines of the lore, determined by the Poetic Edda first and foremost, followed by Snorri's Edda, then Saxo, then other supplementary material, and within an Indo-European cultural matrix. That is proper.

[Garm]

Harbardsljod 40 makes reference to Loki's participation in the battle during the Geirrod episode : geir at rjóða. geir...rjóða. Thorsdrapa makes clear that this was a battle with giants, and that Thjalfi led the army Thor brought with him. (Þjálfi, með sinni ýta : Thialfi, amidst the company of men).


I went to look this up.

The phrase that is transalated above as "Thialfi, amidst the company of men" is rendered elsewhere as"until Þjálfi, accompanying the friend of men [Þórr]"

http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/thorsd00.html

[Mjollnir]

Well, just considtering how she is looked upon by the autors of the Swedish books I've read. But I've always felt a strong connection to Skade. She is a very big source of strength for me.


So the authors connect her with vengeance? Is it a big connection or a mention of it in passing?

[Carla O'Harris]

Eysteinn Bjornsson's translation, coming from a respected Icelandic scholar, is of course an acceptable one, and I am familiar with it, but it is not the only way to translate "með sinni ýta". "Company", "followers" of men is more literal. Obviously this includes the notion of "companion". Thor definitely can be considered a "companion of men" if we consider that to be "friend", but Bjornsson's translation here is a little unique in my eyes. That makes it none the worse, but there are equally respectable translations that describe Thialfi amongst a company of men.

[Mjollnir]

They were jotunns, fool.

As usual, splitting hairs, you Carla are a true work of art.


As far as mild and generous men living the best lives, you might try reading this excellent poem called "Havamal". It's Odin's words to men, written in classic heathen times, not a historical saga written in the 1200's.

And where can one find this "Havamal" that you speak of? Surely it cannot be real.



And you have proven my point that you cannot rebut Rydberg, so anything you say about him I will take as the words of someone incredibly ignorant.

I am working, do not have any books here and could give a rats ass about Vic or your crack addled rants. If one wishes to be looked at as incredibly ignorant, as i stated earlier, look in the mirror. I so love our little chats, winding you up like a childs toy is the easiest thing in the world, it is like watching a multi-car wreck happen right in front of me, do you foam at the mouth or does your head twitch when you respond? I so have to meet you in person. I have this preconceived notion of you and I just have to see if it it matches.


I don't water down my readings of the lore with other religions. I keep strictly within the guidelines of the lore, determined by the Poetic Edda first and foremost, followed by Snorri's Edda, then Saxo, then other supplementary material, and within an Indo-European cultural matrix. That is proper.


You don't?????? Put the Robitussin down and step away Carla.

[Carla O'Harris]

You're hilarious. You cover your own ignorance with ridicule and bravado.


The fact that they were MONSTERS surrounding MONSTERS who had the HOLY MEAD makes a difference. It's not splitting hairs. There's a difference between MONSTERS and other people and wights in mythology.

You say you could "give a rat's ass about Vic" and yet you have no problem throwing out ignorant statements --- about things you know nothing about!! Yet when I make statements, I am always ready and willing to back them up with references and quotations from the lore.

You might study what Havamal has to say about fools. You throw out a lot of insults and forget your own faults.

[Mjollnir]

You're hilarious. You cover your own ignorance with ridicule and bravado.

I have my moments, one cannot rush genius.



The fact that they were MONSTERS surrounding MONSTERS who had the HOLY MEAD makes a difference. It's not splitting hairs. There's a difference between MONSTERS and other people and wights in mythology.

Your splitting hairs, I called them farmhands, you called them jotuns, no shit they were jotuns, you truly are a f**king idiot Carla, no 2 ways about it.


You say you could "give a rat's ass about Vic" and yet you have no problem throwing out ignorant statements --- about things you know nothing about!! Yet when I make statements, I am always ready and willing to back them up with references and quotations from the lore.

Sorry if I do not have my entire library here at work, I promise Carla i will get it here ASAP so I can stop working and look up quotes for you, fortunately we are slow today or I would have not engaged you in this pissing contest which I admit you might win because your dick is apparently longer than mine.


You might study what Havamal has to say about fools. You throw out a lot of insults and forget your own faults.


I know my faults and have accepted them, you on the other hand, with your Dr. Emmet Brown ravings...Back to the Future, remember him?...

[Garm]

There are strong correspondences between mythic figures in Iranian Zoroastrianism and Scandinavian religion ; in some cases, the figures are damn near identical. (Vayu-Vata, for example, is their version of Wotan-Odin.)


Well Carla you are the first source I have seen to make that atribution.

All the comparitive mythologists I've read are reluctant to equate or derive Odin from any of the common Indo European pantheon deities. The only one he comes close to is the Lithuanian Pikuolis. It's very different with deities like Tyr, Thor, or Hel whose predecessors can be confidently and acurately traced.

For example I think I remember seeing you equate Zeus with Odin simply because they are the "all-father" of their respective pantheon. The fact is it is Tyr that derives his line from the Indo European sky god Dyaus as does Zeus. That has led most scholars to conclude that Odin is a Johnny come lately and a likely aheurism.

[Æon Flux]

So the authors connect her with vengeance? Is it a big connection or a mention of it in passing?

In general she is said to be a very strong Asynja, and who fights fiercly when it's needed. I think the mentions of vengence are in passing in many of the books, but it is sometimes pointed out that she is a good diety to turn to when you are seeking vengence.


As for the debate on Odin (Oden), his name supposedly means "the furious" or "the extatically furious" and as far as I am concerned he is a God who enjoys drinking, seducing women and... doing what is necessary. He isn't particularly known in the areas where I live as being driven by the goodness of his heart. He's curious, he is a womanizer... and he actually uses the abilities taught to him by the vanir to seduce women quite frequently.

Now... is he a mean God? Nope... Is he driven by love, compassion and good will? Not really, more so curiousity and a desire to be all-knowing and wise then anything else, IMO.

[Mjollnir]

In general she is said to be a very strong Asynja, and who fights fiercly when it's needed. I think the mentions of vengence are in passing in many of the books, but it is sometimes pointed out that she is a good diety to turn to when you are seeking vengence.

With the exception of seeking vengeance I agree, very strong,raw. I have perosnally never heard of anyone calling on her for that, but that is not to say no one has, I just never heard of anyone doing it.



As for the debate on Odin (Oden), his name supposedly means "the furious" or "the extatically furious" and as far as I am concerned he is a God who enjoys drinking, seducing women and... doing what is necessary. He isn't particularly known in the areas where I live as being driven by the goodness of his heart. He's curious, he is a womanizer... and he actually uses the abilities taught to him by the vanir to seduce women quite frequently.

Yuppers.


Now... is he a mean God? Nope... Is he driven by love, compassion and good will? Not really, more so curiousity and a desire to be all-knowing and wise then anything else, IMO.

He gotta do what he gotta do, he is trying to delay Ragnarok, knowing full well whats going to happen anyways.

[Infinite Grey]

:veryweird I so do love pissing contests!


I can't really imagine the Norse gods being particularly nice, and I'm not sure I'd like to witness their brand of "loving" attention... but as to the original post, I do not think they would have a problem with homosexuality within the proper context. They may not really look favourably on your stereotypic prancing "fag", but relatively normal guy shouldn't have any issue despite his sexual orientation... or her's.

[Mjollnir]

:veryweird I so do love pissing contests!

If only there was snow...................



:I can't really imagine the Norse gods being particularly nice, and I'm not sure I'd like to witness their brand of "loving" attention...

To be fair though, they arent all meanies and they do have their moments.



but as to the original post, I do not think they would have a problem with homosexuality within the proper context. They may not really look favourably on your stereotypic prancing "fag", but relatively normal guy shouldn't have any issue despite his sexual orientation... or her's.


That was the original topic? :nyah:

[Æon Flux]

I can't really imagine the Norse gods being particularly nice, and I'm not sure I'd like to witness their brand of "loving" attention....

The Aesir... not so nice and loving. They're primary war gods. The Vanir on the other hand... loving, nurturing and open minded. :cheers:

[Garm]

That was the original topic? :nyah:

uh uh

I think we just committed a threadjacking

[Æon Flux]

With the exception of seeking vengeance I agree, very strong,raw. I have perosnally never heard of anyone calling on her for that, but that is not to say no one has, I just never heard of anyone doing it.


No, I guess it's not all that common, but she is a very good goddess to turn to in those situations. After all her strenght and rawness and also understanding for the need of vengance makes her somewhat ideal to those who need assistance.




He gotta do what he gotta do, he is trying to delay Ragnarok, knowing full well whats going to happen anyways.

Very true...

[Mjollnir]

:veryweird I so do love pissing contests!


To be honest, it isn't really a pissing contest, as she is so out there the only thing to contest is her sanity. It is however, more like poking a caged mountain lion with a sharp stick and watching it go nuts.

DISCLAIMER: I know Carla is a self proclaimed ARA and I in now way am condoning prodding caged mt. lions with sharp pointy sticks as that would be wrong. _wedgie_


I also know Njorun is a vegan and is so hot I couldnt poke fun at her if I tried. :wave: :cheers:

[Infinite Grey]

The Aesir... not so nice and loving. They're primary war gods. The Vanir on the other hand... loving, nurturing and open minded. :cheers:


Ah but then you have to look at "loving, nurturing and open minded" in context to the times, did they define "love" and "nurturing" the same way modern society does? It is evident that different cultures now express these emotions differently, why should historical periods be any different?

[Infinite Grey]

To be honest, it isn't really a pissing contest, as she is so out there the only thing to contest is her sanity. It is however, more like poking a caged mountain lion with a sharp stick and watching it go nuts.

DISCLAIMER: I know Carla is a self proclaimed ARA and I in now way am condoning prodding caged mt. lions with sharp pointy sticks as that would be wrong. _wedgie_

yeah yeah, sure sure ;)



I also know Njorun is a vegan and is so hot I couldnt poke fun at her if I tried. :wave: :cheers:


You know... I really didn't know that! You learn something new about someone everyday. :hahugh:

[Mjollnir]

You know... I really didn't know that! You learn something new about someone everyday. :hahugh:


Look at her profile and in "Sexy Women of MW" thread, she is a flat out hottie, no if's and's or butt's about it.

[Infinite Grey]

Look at her profile and in "Sexy Women of MW" thread, she is a flat out hottie, no if's and's or butt's about it.


Oh I know she's a hot, sexy, minx of a lady, what I didn't know was that she was Vegan :lol:

[Æon Flux]

Ah but then you have to look at "loving, nurturing and open minded" in context to the times, did they define "love" and "nurturing" the same way modern society does? It is evident that different cultures now express these emotions differently, why should historical periods be any different?

True...
The Vanir were open to most relationship, some of the gods and goddesses married their brothers/sisters. Sex between members the same gender were used in rituals.

The Vanir were peaceful, their main focuses were fertility, home and family. As well as healing the sick and warding off evil with their sejd.



I also know Njorun is a vegan and is so hot I couldnt poke fun at her if I tried.

Well... aren't you the sweetest. :lol: :wave:

[Infinite Grey]

True...
The Vanir were open to most relationship, some of the gods and goddesses married their brothers/sisters. Sex between members the same gender were used in rituals.

The Vanir were peaceful, their main focuses were fertility, home and family. As well as healing the sick and warding off evil with their sejd.


psst, you know what? I know very little about Norse Gods, so I'll take your words for it :lol: I'm just using cultural information and concepts.

[Æon Flux]

psst, you know what? I know very little about Norse Gods, so I'll take your words for it :lol: I'm just using cultural information and concepts.

:hahugh: Well, do take my word for it if you want to. It's as good as anybody's. ;)

It's been nice discussing this with you all, however I must be going. I'll stop by later and see how this has evolved! ;)

:wave:

[Tentasticle]

I have been feeling called by a few Norse deities, and it feels like something I should pursue. Still, I wanted to make sure the Norse deities don't have any issues with homosexuals, since I am one, lol. So I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject.

I know that if ANYONE is calling you that strongly then they know damn well who they're getting ;).

[Mjollnir]

I know that if ANYONE is calling you that strongly then they know damn well who they're getting ;).


I am suprised no one mentioned this earlier. +1

[Malcolm]

Still, I wanted to make sure the Norse deities don't have any issues with homosexuals, since I am one, lol

I wouldn't worry about it. The norse are a whacky group. Even shapeshifting bestiality isn't out of the question...or maybe that was just loki...

[Carla O'Harris]

Well Carla you are the first source I have seen to make that atribution.

All the comparitive mythologists I've read are reluctant to equate or derive Odin from any of the common Indo European pantheon deities. The only one he comes close to is the Lithuanian Pikuolis. It's very different with deities like Tyr, Thor, or Hel whose predecessors can be confidently and acurately traced.

For example I think I remember seeing you equate Zeus with Odin simply because they are the "all-father" of their respective pantheon. The fact is it is Tyr that derives his line from the Indo European sky god Dyaus as does Zeus. That has led most scholars to conclude that Odin is a Johnny come lately and a likely aheurism.


Well, those scholars ought to start doing something called "homework". Odin is anything but a Johnny-come-lately. I've heard that thesis as well. "Tyr" was originally one of Odin's titles, and his son received it as a patronymic. Vayu-Vata is definitely an Odin cognate.

[Carla O'Harris]

In general she is said to be a very strong Asynja, and who fights fiercly when it's needed. I think the mentions of vengence are in passing in many of the books, but it is sometimes pointed out that she is a good diety to turn to when you are seeking vengence.


As for the debate on Odin (Oden), his name supposedly means "the furious" or "the extatically furious" and as far as I am concerned he is a God who enjoys drinking, seducing women and... doing what is necessary. He isn't particularly known in the areas where I live as being driven by the goodness of his heart. He's curious, he is a womanizer... and he actually uses the abilities taught to him by the vanir to seduce women quite frequently.

Now... is he a mean God? Nope... Is he driven by love, compassion and good will? Not really, more so curiousity and a desire to be all-knowing and wise then anything else, IMO.


Then how do you explain the entire list of qualities I took directly from Havamal? Do those not seem like the qualities of someone with good will?

Odin IS driven by love and good will, but it's from a cosmic perspective. He has much more on his plate than any of us, and so we may not be able to perceive that at any one time. It's like Job confronting Yahweh over what seems to him to be a lack of compassion.

There's no indication that Odin is a frequent seducer. With Gunnlodd, he was in disguise as someone else and had little choice in the matter, as he had to rescue the mead, and he felt badly about the whole deal. When he seduced Rind, he ended up paying for that by being exiled for ten years, paying a huge wergild for it, and also showing regret.

What's happening is that I'm challenging your pet theories about these gods, and they're much bigger than you give them credit for. I'm taking away the mean Viking image, and revealing a much larger historical religious basis to them. These weren't just the gods of roving pirates. They were the gods of an entire society.

[Mjollnir]

Then how do you explain the entire list of qualities I took directly from Havamal? Do those not seem like the qualities of someone with good will?

If you take the havamal at face value and still believe Odin to be this benevolent all loving god you are way dumber than I originally thought.


Odin IS driven by love and good will, but it's from a cosmic perspective. He has much more on his plate than any of us, and so we may not be able to perceive that at any one time. It's like Job confronting Yahweh over what seems to him to be a lack of compassion.

I am so stunned by your train of thought it is astounding.


There's no indication that Odin is a frequent seducer. With Gunnlodd, he was in disguise as someone else and had little choice in the matter, as he had to rescue the mead, and he felt badly about the whole deal. When he seduced Rind, he ended up paying for that by being exiled for ten years, paying a huge wergild for it, and also showing regret.

So if I put on one of those fake nose/glasses/moustache things I can go out and f**k whoever I want and my wife wont get pissed because I was in disguise and it wasn't me but someone else? Are you f**king serious? And what "little choice"? he knew exactly what he was doing.



What's happening is that I'm challenging your pet theories about these gods, and they're much bigger than you give them credit for. I'm taking away the mean Viking image, and revealing a much larger historical religious basis to them. These weren't just the gods of roving pirates. They were the gods of an entire society.

No, what's happening is you are taking meds that expired back in 87'.

[David19]

He gotta do what he gotta do, he is trying to delay Ragnarok, knowing full well whats going to happen anyways.

That's what i thought, i don't know much about Norse mythology, so correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't Odin care more about the 'bigger picture', like he wants to prepare for Ragnarok, and so he takes the lives of his young, warrior followers so he has young, fit, strong warriors for Valhalla (and therefore Ragnarok)? (i can't imagine him waning a bunch of old guys for his war, lol).

But, i'm not sure if i'm right.

[Rick]

Regarding Odin's Good Will, here are just some of the Values he propagates in Havamal :

Be Hospitable. Be Good to Guests.
Moderation.
Realizing your own Fallibility.
Friendship.
Dignity Regardless of One's Wealth.
Giving/Generosity.
Laughter and Mirth.
Trust for the Trustworthy. Treachery for the Treasonous.
Simplicity. Enjoying the simple pleasures : a good fire, the sun, health.
Appreciation of the abilities of the handicapped.
Wisdom.
Regret over things done badly.
Abstaining from adultery.
Abstaining from alcoholism.
Openheartedness and Sharing.
Rejoicing in the Good and never at Evil.
Regarding an injury to any an injury to oneself.
Respect for the Old.
Helping the Indigent.



These are excellent, good values of good will. Sometimes necessity will make unfortunate things necessary, but it is nothing to rejoice over. Odin regrets the things he has done which have hurt others. He advises seeking the good.


In the Riddles of Gestumblindi, he makes it clear how much he marvels in the Natural Wonders and Creatures of creation.


Oh, yes, this is a god of tremendous good will. It so happens that many times to bring about a greater good he has had to sacrifice and do something he was not proud of, something necessary, but let his good will never be doubted.

Hmm... regardless of your instruction to do otherwise, I still doubt it.

Your list of "good will" seems to me like a guide for frithful living in tribal circumstances. Most, if not all of these, are simple rules to promote the chances of survival of the species in an often harsh environment. A concept of "good will" might grow out of these, but being the motivation behind them is unlikely.

[Carla O'Harris]

FRITH-ful living. Ie., peaceful and loving. You used the word, and it is very appropriate. If you'd like to say that Odin's intentions were to promote frith, excellent : even better than good will. Peace and love are good things.

[Carla O'Harris]

That's what i thought, i don't know much about Norse mythology, so correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't Odin care more about the 'bigger picture', like he wants to prepare for Ragnarok, and so he takes the lives of his young, warrior followers so he has young, fit, strong warriors for Valhalla (and therefore Ragnarok)? (i can't imagine him waning a bunch of old guys for his war, lol).

But, i'm not sure if i'm right.


Certainly a compelling explanation for why it always seems like the good guys lose, or why the best men seem to get taken out while the worst men survive. It's clever theology.

Keep in mind that Odin's side is successful in Ragnarok. A new world emerges, a utopian world, that reproduces the best of the Golden Age, but this time without all of the evil. No Gullveig, no Giants, purified.

Everyone here has admitted that Odin is fighting so Ragnarok will be won. And it will be won. And he loves the world so much, he's willing to give his own life if that's what it takes, and to make some sacrifices and hard choices along the way if that's what it takes, because he wills the good. If anything, this proves my point.

He must will the good. After all, if he didn't, someone as wonderful and brave and good-willed as Balder could never have come out of him.

[Carla O'Harris]

If you take the havamal at face value and still believe Odin to be this benevolent all loving god you are way dumber than I originally thought.



I am so stunned by your train of thought it is astounding.



So if I put on one of those fake nose/glasses/moustache things I can go out and f**k whoever I want and my wife wont get pissed because I was in disguise and it wasn't me but someone else? Are you f**king serious? And what "little choice"? he knew exactly what he was doing.




No, what's happening is you are taking meds that expired back in 87'.


Mjollnir, you have no understanding of Havamal. You might have learned by now that Asatru is the "religion with homework". I'm sorry, you're failing the class. You need to go back and study. Why don't you try having a dialogue with me when you have read --- oh, let's see --- say, an eighth of what I've read --- or when you've spent --- oh, let's say, a sixteenth of the time I have studying the lore. Then you will be qualified -- barely -- to say anything to me about this religion. Until then you will continue to prove yourself to be the ignorant, obnoxious person that you are.

[Infinite Grey]

Help! I can't see the thread anymore! someone's ego is blocking the screen!

[David19]

Certainly a compelling explanation for why it always seems like the good guys lose, or why the best men seem to get taken out while the worst men survive. It's clever theology.

Keep in mind that Odin's side is successful in Ragnarok. A new world emerges, a utopian world, that reproduces the best of the Golden Age, but this time without all of the evil. No Gullveig, no Giants, purified.

While i'm not Asatruer (or a Heathen), that sounds a little too optimistic, i don't think a world can ever be 'perfect', it's not in nature, 'evil' is needed, i can't remember who said it, but someone said 'nature loves diversity', and also think of Yin & Yang, one can't exist withour the other, while i'm sure it may be a great thought to think of a world without 'evil', i don't think it'll ever come about.


Everyone here has admitted that Odin is fighting so Ragnarok will be won. And it will be won. And he loves the world so much, he's willing to give his own life if that's what it takes, and to make some sacrifices and hard choices along the way if that's what it takes, because he wills the good. If anything, this proves my point.

He must will the good. After all, if he didn't, someone as wonderful and brave and good-willed as Balder could never have come out of him.

Again, i don't really know if Ragnarok will be won, just 'cause Odin is 'good', 'cause being on the side of 'good' doesn't win anything, it takes power to win, that's what matters, power tips the balence, power makes a difference, you can be an ant with the best intentions, but you'd sitll be an ant that can get stepped on (ok, i'm kind of quoting Angel here, but i think it works, lol!).

I think if Ragnarok happens, it will depend on who has the most power. (although who knows if it will, lots of cultures have their own apocalypse, maybe the Christian apocalypse will happen first or the Islamic one, or the Jewish one, Aztec ones, etc).

[Vigdisdotter]

I have been feeling called by a few Norse deities, and it feels like something I should pursue. Still, I wanted to make sure the Norse deities don't have any issues with homosexuals, since I am one, lol. So I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject.

Every time I've brought up the subject when speaking with Them it was met with much eye rolling :P

Now, bear in mind that while I'm heathen, I'm not a recon. So you're mileage may vary.

[Vigdisdotter]

The Aesir... not so nice and loving. They're primary war gods.

See, here's my non-recon self sticking her nose in it again, but I don't see them as "war gods" but more along the lines of.....government? They officiated over various areas, had specific jobs, were democratic (of a sort) and such. They weren't just warriors or even mostly. They did much more then be with their followers on battle fields.

[Mjollnir]

Mjollnir, you have no understanding of Havamal. You might have learned by now that Asatru is the "religion with homework". I'm sorry, you're failing the class. You need to go back and study. Why don't you try having a dialogue with me when you have read --- oh, let's see --- say, an eighth of what I've read --- or when you've spent --- oh, let's say, a sixteenth of the time I have studying the lore. Then you will be qualified -- barely -- to say anything to me about this religion. Until then you will continue to prove yourself to be the ignorant, obnoxious person that you are.


Sorry, but learning the religion of my ancestors from a wiccan fruitcake is about as endearing as having my eyes gouged out with a rusty spoon covered in acid.

DISCLAIMER: I said wiccan fruitcake as in "Carla is a wiccan fruitcake" as opposed to making a sweeping general statement about wiccans in general which would then have been along the lines of "fruitcake wiccans" notice the "S" denoting plural, which I did not do.I have many friends who are wiccan and many attned our blóts and other functions. Thank you for your attention.



I will say though your ignorance and lack of being able to shut the f**k up is astounding, you keep doing what your doing sweetheart, the men with the comfortable white suits and coat that wraps around the back are on their way.

I have read the Havamal...and believe it or not sunshine, I understood it!!!...along with the rest of the source material and many others so your bookwormish comment can be stuck up your fat ass.

I was on the fire department with a guy that was very booksmart,good at tactics and technique, unfortunately his lack of intestinal fortitude and uncanny ability to run at the first sight of flames made him a less than competent man to have on a burning rooftop with you and it was plain knowledge that no one wanted to have him as their back up man. I see you in that same light, booksmart but not having an ounce of common sense or ability to know how to live a heathen lifestyle in that round mass atop your neck, you just read what others wrote, regurgitate it as gospel and claim that who and all you know is the end all be all of "our religion with homework".

I am sorry to hear that all the time you spent reading and studying has turned you into a narcissistic windbag but I am sure their are remedies at your local CVS or Walgreens you can buy over-the-counter to help with that.

You have a nice day hun.

[Mjollnir]

Keep in mind that Odin's side is successful in Ragnarok. A new world emerges, a utopian world, that reproduces the best of the Golden Age, but this time without all of the evil. No Gullveig, no Giants, purified.

Everyone here has admitted that Odin is fighting so Ragnarok will be won. And it will be won. And he loves the world so much, he's willing to give his own life if that's what it takes, and to make some sacrifices and hard choices along the way if that's what it takes, because he wills the good. If anything, this proves my point.

He must will the good. After all, if he didn't, someone as wonderful and brave and good-willed as Balder could never have come out of him.


Thats it, I am done. You win. I can in now way in good conscience continue to even look at the slop coming from that huge suckhole under your nose. The massive growth inside your brain that is turning it to oatmeal can be the only logical explanation for the utter bulls**t that comes from it and that you speak as truth. I wish luck to all the others who will continue to have to read this, may your eyes not bleed too profusely.



DISCLAIMER:Since we all know she is sooner or later going to post something that I will just have to reply to, I thought I would at least give it a try.

[Rick]

FRITH-ful living. Ie., peaceful and loving. You used the word, and it is very appropriate. If you'd like to say that Odin's intentions were to promote frith, excellent : even better than good will. Peace and love are good things.
Darlin', if you think "frithful" means "loving," you better go back to Heathen 101. Living frithfully with your neighbors means not killing them (killing kinsmen was murder; killing an outsider was generally OK and usually encouraged), or raiding your neighbors' farms. It means getting along in a "live and let live" sort of way, which is based on one's own selfish interest, not "good wiil towards men." It's hard to concentrate on plowing your fields if you have to worry about the neighbors burning your house.

That's the concept of frith. Don't try to make it something it's not, or apply the term in some wiccatru, new agey sort of way.

BTW, just for the record, I live by the code found in the Havamal and elsewhere in the Eddas and Sagas (and have done so every day for nearly 50 years now). I've never been a Christian, a Jew, an atheist, a wiccan, a witch, or anything else. I am not a convert to Heathenism. It's what I've always been. When you've read an eighth of the books, texts, manuscripts, etc. that I've read, and put in a sixteenth of the time that I've put in studying the Lore and living the principles contained therein (and even after 50 years, I've still only scratched the surface), then come back and tell me, know you more, or what?

[Mjollnir]

Darlin', if you think "frithful" means "loving," you better go back to Heathen 101. Living frithfully with your neighbors means not killing them (killing kinsmen was murder; killing an outsider was generally OK and usually encouraged), or raiding your neighbors' farms. It means getting along in a "live and let live" sort of way, which is based on one's own selfish interest, not "good wiil towards men." It's hard to concentrate on plowing your fields if you have to worry about the neighbors burning your house.

That's the concept of frith. Don't try to make it something it's not, or apply the term in some wiccatru, new agey sort of way.

BTW, just for the record, I live by the code found in the Havamal and elsewhere in the Eddas and Sagas (and have done so every day for nearly 50 years now). I've never been a Christian, a Jew, an atheist, a wiccan, a witch, or anything else. I am not a convert to Heathenism. It's what I've always been. When you've read an eighth of the books, texts, manuscripts, etc. that I've read, and put in a sixteenth of the time that I've put in studting the Lore and living the principles contained therein, then come back and tell me, know you more, or what?


In the immortal words of Butthead......."This is the greatest thing I have ever seen"

:fpraise: :viking: :fpraise:

[Carla O'Harris]

Sorry, but learning the religion of my ancestors from a wiccan fruitcake is about as endearing as having my eyes gouged out with a rusty spoon covered in acid.

DISCLAIMER: I said wiccan fruitcake as in "Carla is a wiccan fruitcake" as opposed to making a sweeping general statement about wiccans in general which would then have been along the lines of "fruitcake wiccans" notice the "S" denoting plural, which I did not do.I have many friends who are wiccan and many attned our blóts and other functions. Thank you for your attention.



I will say though your ignorance and lack of being able to shut the f**k up is astounding, you keep doing what your doing sweetheart, the men with the comfortable white suits and coat that wraps around the back are on their way.

I have read the Havamal...and believe it or not sunshine, I understood it!!!...along with the rest of the source material and many others so your bookwormish comment can be stuck up your fat ass.

I was on the fire department with a guy that was very booksmart,good at tactics and technique, unfortunately his lack of intestinal fortitude and uncanny ability to run at the first sight of flames made him a less than competent man to have on a burning rooftop with you and it was plain knowledge that no one wanted to have him as their back up man. I see you in that same light, booksmart but not having an ounce of common sense or ability to know how to live a heathen lifestyle in that round mass atop your neck, you just read what others wrote, regurgitate it as gospel and claim that who and all you know is the end all be all of "our religion with homework".

I am sorry to hear that all the time you spent reading and studying has turned you into a narcissistic windbag but I am sure their are remedies at your local CVS or Walgreens you can buy over-the-counter to help with that.

You have a nice day hun.


Incompetent and incoherent. You keep proving your worth there, fella.

[Mjollnir]

Incompetent and incoherent. You keep proving your worth there, fella.


Incoherent? I am incoherent? Whatever you bought on the corner I want some.

And I am quite competent sweetcheeks....oh the thought of that is sickening...I just choose to stoop to this level with you 'cause you turn me on so much.


DISCLAIMER:Well that didn't last too long did it now? dammit.

[Carla O'Harris]

Darlin', if you think "frithful" means "loving," you better go back to Heathen 101. Living frithfully with your neighbors means not killing them (killing kinsmen was murder; killing an outsider was generally OK and usually encouraged), or raiding your neighbors' farms. It means getting along in a "live and let live" sort of way, which is based on one's own selfish interest, not "good wiil towards men." It's hard to concentrate on plowing your fields if you have to worry about the neighbors burning your house.

That's the concept of frith. Don't try to make it something it's not, or apply the term in some wiccatru, new agey sort of way.

BTW, just for the record, I live by the code found in the Havamal and elsewhere in the Eddas and Sagas (and have done so every day for nearly 50 years now). I've never been a Christian, a Jew, an atheist, a wiccan, a witch, or anything else. I am not a convert to Heathenism. It's what I've always been. When you've read an eighth of the books, texts, manuscripts, etc. that I've read, and put in a sixteenth of the time that I've put in studying the Lore and living the principles contained therein (and even after 50 years, I've still only scratched the surface), then come back and tell me, know you more, or what?



You study the etymology and its related roots. I have used the word in a PERFECTLY acceptable and in fact perfectly NORMAL way. In this case, I know what I'm talking about, so don't you DARE try to place me into some kind of new age box. Go back and study the etymology and all the related words that have to do with "dear", "beloved", etc. You're confusing Grith with Frith. Grith is the mere kind of "truce, settlement" peace you're discussing. Frith is the kind of TRUST held between family members and people who love each other.

[Rick]

Don't get snarky on me, fella. YOU'RE the one who is demonstrating a very superficial understanding of Frith. You study the etymology and its related roots. I have used the word in a PERFECTLY acceptable and in fact perfectly NORMAL way. In this case, I know what I'm talking about, and you don't, so don't you DARE try to place me into some kind of new age box. If you've read enough, you go back and study the etymology and all the related words that have to do with "dear", "beloved", etc. You're confusing Grith with Frith. Grith is the mere kind of "truce, settlement" peace you're discussing. Frith is the kind of TRUST held between family members and people who love each other.
_inabox_ Well, I'm placing you in said new age box (I just don't take instruction well, do I? :lol: ). Ya just keep diggin' your hole deeper & deeper, and don't seem to understand that all the dirt that's fallin' down on your head is comin' from your own efforts.

[Mjollnir]

_inabox_ Well, I'm placing you in said new age box (I just don't take instruction well, do I? :lol: ). Ya just keep diggin' your hole deeper & deeper, and don't seem to understand that all the dirt that's fallin' down on your head is comin' from your own efforts.


I am curious to wonder why she chose Princess Leia as her avatar. Is it because Leia is a strong willed leader? Or because Carrie Fisher was a druggie and a boozer?

[Carla O'Harris]

While i'm not Asatruer (or a Heathen), that sounds a little too optimistic, i don't think a world can ever be 'perfect', it's not in nature, 'evil' is needed, i can't remember who said it, but someone said 'nature loves diversity', and also think of Yin & Yang, one can't exist withour the other, while i'm sure it may be a great thought to think of a world without 'evil', i don't think it'll ever come about.



Again, i don't really know if Ragnarok will be won, just 'cause Odin is 'good', 'cause being on the side of 'good' doesn't win anything, it takes power to win, that's what matters, power tips the balence, power makes a difference, you can be an ant with the best intentions, but you'd sitll be an ant that can get stepped on (ok, i'm kind of quoting Angel here, but i think it works, lol!).

I think if Ragnarok happens, it will depend on who has the most power. (although who knows if it will, lots of cultures have their own apocalypse, maybe the Christian apocalypse will happen first or the Islamic one, or the Jewish one, Aztec ones, etc).


Ragnarok IS won, because the world is cleansed of the evil powers. It is at great cost, no doubt, but I am not being overly optimistic. Everything indicates the Return of the Golden Age. That is pure 100% heathenism there. Read Voluspa.


You're right that Odin doesn't win simply because he's good. That's why he spends from the time of the breaking of the Golden Age until Ragnarok collecting the best warriors he can. The two are not incompatible. He is building a force so that good can win over yfil. Since these are different (and more original) than Christian concepts of good and evil, it's perfectly heathen.

[Carla O'Harris]

_inabox_ Well, I'm placing you in said new age box (I just don't take instruction well, do I? :lol: ). Ya just keep diggin' your hole deeper & deeper, and don't seem to understand that all the dirt that's fallin' down on your head is comin' from your own efforts.


No dirt falling on my head.

It's funny that the people protesting the most, and hurling the largest amount of insults, cannot defend their position with any kind of evidence or argument. Again, it shows the quality of most who claim to be part of the "religion with homework". It's appropriate, however, because a heathen proves his/her worth. In that regard, I am most unimpressed.

[Mjollnir]

No dirt falling on my head.

sh*t then?


It's funny that the people protesting the most, and hurling the largest amount of insults, cannot defend their position with any kind of evidence or argument.

Protesting what? Your ridiculous wiccanized new-agey mumbo-jumbo while trying to affix it to heathen concepts? You place too much stock in yourself.





Again, it shows the quality of most who claim to be part of the "religion with homework". It's appropriate, however, because a heathen proves his/her worth. In that regard, I am most unimpressed.


Claim? A heathen is judged by their words and deeds. I stated earlier I am stooping to your level because it is so easy, my kin know exactly my worth and my deeds.I am in no way trying to, wanting to or even remotely wishing to impress you Carla. It would be like putting a tophat on a pig. If you wish to continue to make new-agey lovey-dovey statements about cute cuddly-wuddly Odin and how the world is full of rainbows,lollipops and unicorns you go right ahead, I will be shooting Pepsi out of my nose the whole way.


Oh, and BTW, you truly showing your worth of knowledge and copmprehension of the heathen worldview and lifestyle. I place it's worth at just under a nickel.

[Rick]

Ragnarok IS won, because the world is cleansed of the evil powers. It is at great cost, no doubt, but I am not being overly optimistic. Everything indicates the Return of the Golden Age. That is pure 100% heathenism there. Read Voluspa.

You're right that Odin doesn't win simply because he's good. That's why he spends from the time of the breaking of the Golden Age until Ragnarok collecting the best warriors he can. The two are not incompatible. He is building a force so that good can win over yfil. Since these are different (and more original) than Christian concepts of good and evil, it's perfectly heathen.
Once more, you show how little you understand about original Heathen concepts. There is no "good" or "evil", just "us" and "them". The Gods battle against the Giants because thay are the Folk Without (and also because of bad blood. After all, Odin and his brothers did kill the Father of All Giants).

And nowhere have you addressed that the meanest, worst, most bad-assed of all the Giant-Folk, Surtr, survives Ragnarok (deals the last blow dealt, actually). To quote you, "Read Voluspa." (Maybe you need a translation with more footnotes, or something.)

[Rick]

It's funny that the people protesting the most, and hurling the largest amount of insults, cannot defend their position with any kind of evidence or argument. Again, it shows the quality of most who claim to be part of the "religion with homework". It's appropriate, however, because a heathen proves his/her worth. In that regard, I am most unimpressed.
Yep, exactly, that's what almost everybody else in this thread has been sayin' to you, we're most unimpressed.

[Rick]

sh*t then?



Protesting what? Your ridiculous wiccanized new-agey mumbo-jumbo while trying to affix it to heathen concepts? You place too much stock in yourself.







Claim? A heathen is judged by their words and deeds. I stated earlier I am stooping to your level because it is so easy, my kin know exactly my worth and my deeds.I am in no way trying to, wanting to or even remotely wishing to impress you Carla. It would be like putting a tophat on a pig. If you wish to continue to make new-agey lovey-dovey statements about cute cuddly-wuddly Odin and how the world is full of rainbows,lollipops and unicorns you go right ahead, I will be shooting Pepsi out of my nose the whole way.


Oh, and BTW, you truly showing your worth of knowledge and copmprehension of the heathen worldview and lifestyle. I place it's worth at just under a nickel.
Damn, bruthah, you're in a mighty generous mood today... I was thinkin' that with the value of her knowledge & comprehension, she owed us all about $452.06... each...

[Mjollnir]

Yep, exactly, that's what almost everybody else in this thread has been sayin' to you, we're most unimpressed.


Fingers in your ears kinda hinders that Rick.

[Jenne]

D000d...and I thought PP was bad. _inabox_

[Fire's Shadow]

D000d...and I thought PP was bad. _inabox_

No kidding. _inabox_

[Arion]

D000d...and I thought PP was bad. _inabox_
say what?:p

[Jenne]

Still...I've learned alot from this thread.

Says alot about a heatedly-argued debate, yo.

I've been involved in my share...*sly grin*...but they serve a purpose.

:cheers: *to learning,...even if it's "the hard way"*

[Fire's Shadow]

Still...I've learned alot from this thread.

Says alot about a heatedly-argued debate, yo.

I've been involved in my share...*sly grin*...but they serve a purpose.

:cheers: *to learning,...even if it's "the hard way"*

I encourage people to learn the hard way. Hell, the hard way burns into your brain if you mess up.

I can't say I read the whole thread, but you've convinced me to read a little more of it. :cheers:

[David19]

say what?:p

I think she was talking about the Political Pagan section, 'cause normally things heat up there.

[David19]

I encourage people to learn the hard way. Hell, the hard way burns into your brain if you mess up.

Or if you're me, it just burns my brain without leaving anything ;).

[David19]

Once more, you show how little you understand about original Heathen concepts. There is no "good" or "evil", just "us" and "them". The Gods battle against the Giants because thay are the Folk Without (and also because of bad blood. After all, Odin and his brothers did kill the Father of All Giants).

And nowhere have you addressed that the meanest, worst, most bad-assed of all the Giant-Folk, Surtr, survives Ragnarok (deals the last blow dealt, actually). To quote you, "Read Voluspa." (Maybe you need a translation with more footnotes, or something.)

So could i ask do any more jotun (or giants, i'm not sure if they're the same thing, as i've heard there are human-sized Jotun too), survive Ragnarok?.

I kind of knew that there were no 'good' or 'evil' concepts in Heathenism (is that a word, lol), as the entities, gods, etc all seem more realistic (like i've read the Odin did burn Loki's wife/Hel's mother, so he doesn't sound like he's all 'love and light' although i don't know if that's true).

[Mjollnir]

So could i ask do any more jotun (or giants, i'm not sure if they're the same thing, as i've heard there are human-sized Jotun too), survive Ragnarok?.

From what I can recall,no.


I kind of knew that there were no 'good' or 'evil' concepts in Heathenism (is that a word, lol), as the entities, gods, etc all seem more realistic (like i've read the Odin did burn Loki's wife/Hel's mother, so he doesn't sound like he's all 'love and light' although i don't know if that's true).


Putting lovey-dovey,new-agey,fluffy wiccatru attributes to a god that if anyone knew anything about was the exact opposite is ridiculous.

[Jenne]

From what I can recall,no.




Putting lovey-dovey,new-agey,fluffy wiccatru attributes to a god that if anyone knew anything about was the exact opposite is ridiculous.

"wiccatru"? did you make that up?

I kinda like it...:idea:

[Mjollnir]

"wiccatru"? did you make that up?

I kinda like it...:idea:


Unfortunately, no. It does however accurately describe the mindset of someone trying to impose a set of beliefs or ideas to a religion that clearly has no use for said ideas...wiccatru,norse wicca, anything that comes out of Carla's mouth, you get the idea..... It is one of the reasons I tend to blow up like I did in this thread, Rick also made some real good points...obvious to those of us who know and live it....but good points nonetheless.

[Carla O'Harris]

Unfortunately, no. It does however accurately describe the mindset of someone trying to impose a set of beliefs or ideas to a religion that clearly has no use for said ideas...wiccatru,norse wicca, anything that comes out of Carla's mouth, you get the idea..... It is one of the reasons I tend to blow up like I did in this thread, Rick also made some real good points...obvious to those of us who know and live it....but good points nonetheless.


There is no such thing as "Wiccatru". It's merely a slander designed by little boys trying to wear adult bodies, thinking they're bikers playing D&D, insulting our ancestors ...

[Carla O'Harris]

So could i ask do any more jotun (or giants, i'm not sure if they're the same thing, as i've heard there are human-sized Jotun too), survive Ragnarok?.

I kind of knew that there were no 'good' or 'evil' concepts in Heathenism (is that a word, lol), as the entities, gods, etc all seem more realistic (like i've read the Odin did burn Loki's wife/Hel's mother, so he doesn't sound like he's all 'love and light' although i don't know if that's true).


No one ever said he was "all 'love and light'". What I said is that he has tremendous good will, and loves the world so much to be willing to fight for it with every ounce of strength, resourcefulness, and intelligence that he has. His love exists at a cosmic level, and is willing to make sacrifices.

The idea that there are no good or evil concepts in Heathenism is just absurd. That's constructed by anti-Christians who haven't really studied the religion of our ancestors very well. "Good" and "evil" are English words. They weren't invented by Christians. They have different meanings in the old lore. Evil means going too far, out of proportion, while good is something close to finding one's home, finding where one fits.

Loki's mistress was burned because she was a corrupting influence on mankind, and one of the major reasons for the end of the Golden Age. She spread resentment and greed whereever she went, and was responsible (with Loki) for three of the most hazardous monsters in the world, and kept on breeding horrendous jotunn-wolves.

Of Surt, there is no indication of his survival after the battle is over, at least so far as Voluspa is concerned, although it is certainly possible he returns to the Deep Dales near Muspelheim that are his home --- he's not bothering Earth anymore. On the other hand, the Uppsala Codex of Snorri's Edda states that "best it is to be in Gimle with Surt", indicating that he wanted a share amongst the holy gods, and has changed his nature. In any case, Voluspa makes it very, very, very clear that the Golden Age has returned after Ragnarok, and anyone who can't see that written in bold-faced letters maybe had better go back to kindergarten and learn how to read.

[Carla O'Harris]

"Wiccatru" is a word designed by meat-heads who feel threatened by the fact that their macho circle-jerk is getting "invaded" by people who actually have creativity, substance, and an ability to read.

They think they can shout down with their ridiculous obnoxiousness anyone who carries a new and different voice, because they are insecure that anyone might be challenging their vacuous ideologies backed up only by bluster and booze. They'd like to make sure that no beauty ever enters their little football huddle, and so they try to make cute little slanderous separations of anyone who approaches the ancestral material with anything other than a Neanderthal mindstate.

Don't worry, we don't want to be a part of your pathetic little cult. Some of us are actually interested in rejuvenating the ur-religion of our ancestors. The only thing we're challenging is your absurd and morose attempt to claim the entire field for yourself. Conservatives don't get to own the American flag ; meat-heads don't get to own heathenism. Plain and simple.

[Garm]

Well, those scholars ought to start doing something called "homework".

It's not a case of somebody failing to do their homework. The field of Indo-European studies has changed over the last several years, it has become a much tighter, more disciplined endeaver. A lot of presumed cognates have been dropped in a process of sifting the wheat from the chaff. The Vayu/Odin pairing would appear one of them, presuming anybody took it seriously in the first place.


"Tyr" was originally one of Odin's titles, and his son received it as a patronymic.

Now this is from Wikipedia

"*Dyēus Ph2ter is believed to have been the original name of god of the daylit sky and the chief god of the Indo-European pantheon. He survives in Greek Zeus (also Dias), Latin Jupiter, Sanskrit Dyaus/Dyaus Pita, Baltic Dievas, Germanic Tiwaz (ON Tyr, OHG Ziu), Armenian Astwatz, and the Gaulish Dispater (c.f. also deus pater in the Vulgate, e. g. Jude 1:1)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion#Widely_Accepted_Deities


Vayu-Vata is definitely an Odin cognate.

Considering how, uh, singular, your revelations have been so far, are you surprised I am not about to credit this just on the basis of your saying so?

[Carla O'Harris]

It's not a case of somebody failing to do their homework. The field of Indo-European studies has changed over the last several years, it has become a much tighter, more disciplined endeaver. A lot of presumed cognates have been dropped in a process of sifting the wheat from the chaff. The Vayu/Odin pairing would appear one of them, presuming anybody took it seriously in the first place.



Now this is from Wikipedia

"*Dyēus Ph2ter is believed to have been the original name of god of the daylit sky and the chief god of the Indo-European pantheon. He survives in Greek Zeus (also Dias), Latin Jupiter, Sanskrit Dyaus/Dyaus Pita, Baltic Dievas, Germanic Tiwaz (ON Tyr, OHG Ziu), Armenian Astwatz, and the Gaulish Dispater (c.f. also deus pater in the Vulgate, e. g. Jude 1:1)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion#Widely_Accepted_Deities



Considering how, uh, singular, your revelations have been so far, are you surprised I am not about to credit this just on the basis of your saying so?


No, I'm not surprised that anyone interested in Norse-Germanic religion would be unwilling to listen to anything new, actually. The old "deus pater" stuff is really old hat, so far as I'm concerned, at least in relation to Tyr. There is no evidence that Tyr was anything other than a minor deity and Odin's son. He has an important function to fulfill, but after all, there are only two surviving myths with him in them at all, and in only one of them does he perform a major role. I'm not dissing Tyr ; I like Tyr. But the fact of the matter is there is little place to consider him anything other than Odin's son. "Deus Pater" was dropped in the North for the "All Father" label. They are the same thing. But hey, feel free to rely on the scholarship you prefer. There's plenty out there to choose from. I look at the material directly and make decisions for myself. And you're welcome to do the same.

[Garm]

No, I'm not surprised that anyone interested in Norse-Germanic religion would listen to anything new,

Actually, I was a budding chaos magician who inadvertantly crossed paths with couple of norse deities, and it has not been a very comfortable situation for any of the parties involved. Certainly not an Asatruer by any reckoning.



I look at the material directly and make decisions for myself. And you're welcome to do the same.

This makes it sound like you go through other peoples religious texts, decide that such and such a deity has atributes in common with Odin, and therefore, ergo, must be a cognate. Is that how you work? And I thought I was disrespectful. Vayu means wind or air, Wodanez has been equated with rage or ectasy. Unless I you can show me the reconstructed root from which they both descend I am not about to buy in to it. I just think that should a minimum standard for any Indo-European study. You've been tossing that phrase around like you mean something by it.

[Xentor]

Admin mode

So tell me... you're all playing nice and courteous, aren't you? Now all of you who nod, go back and read your posts again.

I'm seeing at least Carla O'Harris and Mjollnir pimp-slapping each other. There's no need for name-calling, folks. If any pimp-slapping is done, it's done by me. So behave.

[Æon Flux]

What's happening is that I'm challenging your pet theories about these gods, and they're much bigger than you give them credit for. I'm taking away the mean Viking image, and revealing a much larger historical religious basis to them. These weren't just the gods of roving pirates. They were the gods of an entire society.

My pet theories? Oh yes... my pet theories about the Gods and Goddesses whos effects still resounds over the countries where I happen to have lived all of my life and where my anscestors have lived for as long as we can remember.

Now... I give a lot of credit to the Vanir and Aesir Gods and Goddesses. I am well aware of their impact on the entire society. While I may not have read 1000 books on the matter, and while my humble knowledge about them comes from the stories that still resides in the people of these countries as well as the reserch of the inhabitants of these countries... Fact still remains that these are the Gods and Goddesses who have been watching every step I've taken in my life.

Pet theories? Call them what you wish. It does not diminish the connection and believes I hold in my heart and soul. :nyah:

[Mjollnir]

Admin mode


I'm seeing at least Carla O'Harris and Mjollnir pimp-slapping each other. .


Pimps up, ho's down my brutha. I'm just keeping it real.................

[Mjollnir]

There is no such thing as "Wiccatru". It's merely a slander designed by little boys trying to wear adult bodies, thinking they're bikers playing D&D, insulting our ancestors ...


Holy f**king sh*t!!!! Carla and I actually agree on something!!!!

Carla is a little boy trying to wear an adult body!!!!!!!

Seriously folks, wiccatru is a joke, much like Little Boy Blew here and her theories.

Oh and BTW, I have never played D&D before, you on the other hand seem the type, ordering people around and demanding they listen to you and what you say is law.

Carla, I need to know something. I would like you to post a pic because I see you as a cross between Dr. Emmet Brown from Back to the Future and Professor Trelawney from H.P & the pris. from Azkaban. You share Dr. Browns penchant for theatrical hysterics and Prof. Trelawneys penchant for out and out bullshit.

[Mjollnir]

No, I'm not surprised that anyone interested in Norse-Germanic religion would be unwilling to listen to anything new, actually. The old "deus pater" stuff is really old hat, so far as I'm concerned, at least in relation to Tyr. There is no evidence that Tyr was anything other than a minor deity and Odin's son. He has an important function to fulfill, but after all, there are only two surviving myths with him in them at all, and in only one of them does he perform a major role. I'm not dissing Tyr ; I like Tyr. But the fact of the matter is there is little place to consider him anything other than Odin's son. "Deus Pater" was dropped in the North for the "All Father" label. They are the same thing. But hey, feel free to rely on the scholarship you prefer. There's plenty out there to choose from. I look at the material directly and make decisions for myself. And you're welcome to do the same.


And this my little skunk cabbage is just one more reason you will never fit in with the heathen community. If you cannot see the major role Tyr played, you are nothing more than a helpless pathetic individual screaming at the tops of your lungs for people to listen to your "facts", stomping your feet and whining when we won't, when in reality we would like nothing more than to give you enough rope to hang yourself with your inane rants, which you do marvelously.

HEY!!! enough rope to hang yourself!! I made an Odinic reference into a joke Carla, did you get it?? If not, read the lore, I am sure it is in there somewhere, if not call up Vic on your Ouija board and ask him to explain it.

[Mjollnir]

EDIT: ahh f**k it

[~Elise~]

Damn--I'd pay $5 to know what you originally said! LOL

Elise

[Æon Flux]

Damn--I'd pay $5 to know what you originally said! LOL

Elise

:lol: Me too... it'd be interesting.

[~Elise~]

:lol: Me too... it'd be interesting.

Yeah--but we don't want him to get banned.

Elise

[Carla O'Harris]

And this my little skunk cabbage is just one more reason you will never fit in with the heathen community. If you cannot see the major role Tyr played, you are nothing more than a helpless pathetic individual screaming at the tops of your lungs for people to listen to your "facts", stomping your feet and whining when we won't, when in reality we would like nothing more than to give you enough rope to hang yourself with your inane rants, which you do marvelously.



Oh, you mean never fit in to the nithings you roll with? How sorrowful, to lose the esteem of the worthless. In any case, let's get the order straight : people of your kin will never fit in with me, which is fine by me, because I associate with people who are creative, open-minded, thoughtful, and good-willed.

Tyr played a major role with the soldiers, as he was a god of soldiers. His importance in that regard is not well-reflected in surviving myths. I already said that I honor Tyr, but Tyr was not as important as Odin or Thor.

[Malcolm]

Yeah--but we don't want him to get banned.


Mjollnir...fiery little guy ain't he. :)

[~Elise~]

Gotta love them Heathens....LOL

They're the fightingest bunch I've seen--next to Feris. Needless to say--it ain't NEVER boring at our house.

Elise

[Wolfpoet]

Jumping in at the end of all this. Forgive me if I say summat already stated in the midest of this thread, it's an awful lot to read at one sitting.

Norcis culture didn't actualy mind Gay sex exactly. It was considered dishonourable for a warrior to play the passive part in gay sex, but when he played the dominating part it was acdeptable. In short a warrior should give but not take. Skalds where pretty much expected to be gay. The Norse where not hung up on the social taboos of Christianity, pretty much anything goes with them.

Also note there is no God of "love", while new-age romantics like to see freya as a Goddess of love. In actual fact she was a Goddess of sex, the old Norse did not realy care much for the concept of love that the Greeks where so fond of. This is not to say the Norse didnot have love, many sagas revolve around the idea of love, often tragedies. But they where a very practical people, marriages where often of conveniance and political worth and the concept of fidelity was pretty much lost on both Men and Women.

[Hærfest Leah]

Mjollnir...fiery little guy ain't he. :)

I'm so late on catching up on this thread but Mjollnir has me laughing so hard I almost wet myself.

[vulfsung]

I'm so late on catching up on this thread but Mjollnir has me laughing so hard I almost wet myself.

:yayah:
*nods in agreement*

[David19]

People may also be interested in this article by Jordsvin (http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/), called 'Lesbigays in Germanic Paganism' (http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/Asatru/Lesbigay.htm).

[Rick]

Yep, Jordsvin is a gay Germanic Pagan, so he should know

[BlueWaves]

IMHO, the Norse were just "white Gauls"....i mean they were ruthless and just came into towns sluaghtered everyone, went to the tables and chowed down...lol xD

[Hærfest Leah]

Yep, Jordsvin is a gay Germanic Pagan, so he should know


I didn't know that, I love his site. I'm also on his Seidhr Study yahoo group.

[Rick]

I don't know that he makes it an issue, but neither does he make it a secret. Jordsvin is widely known & generally respected in Heathen circles.