Community moderation discussion!

[mol]

Well, folks. We have always prided our community here as being very open to suggestions and we have always valued our community members input (despite what some have said in the past...when you get this big...someone is bound to say 'the admins just don't care', but that has never been the case...and I am sure MOST of you know that).

One of the biggest problems we have had over the years has had to do with cliques, moderator groups, and RULES. Yes, rules. We have had lists of rules, lined out to the letter...only to have folks bend them and figure out a way to get around them. And then we have had one rule, the rule of Respect, where admins are put on the spot to decide if something warrants a moderation or not.

This has been back and forth for YEARS. We have had listed rules, at least 3 times and two times we have went back to the one rule of Respect. We currently stand on this rule now, but it has it's flaws.

Some of you have complained that while you get moderated publicly you have no public recourse or way to discuss the moderations. That's because it is in our guidelines that moderations would always be addressed in private via PM and/or email. We have heard the complaints and thanks to the makers of this fine piece of software we run our forums on (*cough*) we, the admins, think we have a way to satisfy both sides of this issue.

And so enters the infraction system. The infraction system is basically a system of points that people get for being, let's call it 'naughty'; for lack of a better word. There are different levels of naughtiness, therefore there are different points for different naughty things. When you accumulate a certain number of infraction points then you would be banned automatically. An admin wouldn't even be the one doing it.

Now, the next problem one might think is...what if I do a few 'naughty' things and then several months later I do something else and then I get banned...wait this is not fair! Well, the infraction system allows us a time-frame for infraction points to fall off, as well. So, like, lets say a signature that is too long might earn you a 1 point infraction, but that 1 point only lasts 2 weeks. While something like spam might earn 50 points that NEVER falls off. Get it?

The next interesting thing about the infraction system is that we can actually make it so that each infraction creates a thread in a sub-forum of the Site Room aptly named, um, The Infraction Forum...in this thread the person infracted can actually discuss their infraction in public with the admins and even other community members. Some might say this is only encouraging an argument, but we are just trying our best to HEAR what the community is saying to us (the admins)...and we feel that since this is basically a community-moderated place....then folks should be able to discuss their moderations with the community. I think this will help the admins and the Community better understand the rule of Respect.

Of course, now comes the fun part. We have to define the infractions, assign them points, and length of time for them to drop off (if ever). We want your input. This is not a vote. It would be impossible to vote on everything, but we will consider everything you, as a community, says in this thread. Tell us what you feel should be an an infraction as it pertains to our respect rule and guidelines (http://www.mysticwicks.com/faq.php?faq=mw_faqs#faq_rules), tell us what point YOU would assign to it and how long of a time it would take for that point to drop off. Tell us if you feel certain points should not drop off.

Let me give you some examples to start you off:

Let's assume a ban goes into effect at 50 points.

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days
Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 14 days
Name-calling - 5 point - 7 days
Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)
Adult content posting - 50 points - (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Trolling & Spamming - 50 points (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Publicly displaying PM's and Karma pokes - 10 points - 10 days

So, there ya go. Discuss. Give us input. As you give us information to go on we will start creating infractions in the infraction system and adjusting the points accordingly. I will create the Infraction forum right now.

And away we go...

(Oh, and for those of you who have already received infraction points...there will be threads waiting for you in there. :))

[mol]

Probably be better in the Wicks Announcements forum. =]

[SSanf]

"Publicly displaying PM's" to me that is both dishonorable and betrayal. I would make it a higher point value.

What is presumed private should remain private.

Someone who does that should not get 4 free shots before being banned. And, I would make it a lot longer than 10 days on that one. To me, that is despicable.

Where is the infraction forum?

[mol]

"Publicly displaying PM's" to me that is both dishonorable and betrayal. I would make it a higher point value.

What is presumed private should remain private.

Someone who does that should not get 4 free shots before being banned. And, I would make it a lot longer than 10 days on that one. To me, that is despicable.

Where is the infraction forum?
The infraction forum is in the Site Room. You have to give more info, SSanf. What points would you give, how long would they last? Be specific, people. Come on.

[DragonsChest]

I agree with SSanf. When I send a PM to someone, I expect that PM to remain between me and the recipient. Maybe that's a little naive of me, but that's what I do with others who send PMs to me, and what I've always expected in return. I keep it private, hence: Private Message.

If I were to send someone a PM that they found objectionable, and if they share that with an Admin, then that's okay. But not on the whole board. *course, I wouldn't send such a PM*

Thanks!

[SSanf]

I guess, that I would make it 30 points so that they cannot do it twice but would not be banned if they had some points for minor infractions. I would make it last, at least, 30 days because I find it so abhorent to have private communications made the subject of public gossip, speculation and judgement.

[Jenne]

The next interesting thing about the infraction system is that we can actually make it so that each infraction creates a thread in a sub-forum of the Site Room aptly named, um, The Infraction Forum...in this thread the person infracted can actually discuss their infraction in public with the admins and even other community members. Some might say this is only encouraging an argument, but we are just trying our best to HEAR what the community is saying to us (the admins)...and we feel that since this is basically a community-moderated place....then folks should be able to discuss their moderations with the community. I think this will help the admins and the Community better understand the rule of Respect.


Well, mol, I spoke a bit hastily in another thread. The quotation above relieves me...somewhat. I'll wait to see how much we say here as a community is actually weighted...that's nothing against YOU, mol. I'm just a realist about how things are modded, esp now that I'm modding elsewhere. You make decisions for the "good of all," and sometimes that's against a few. C'est la vie.

I like the idea we can encourage others to be good and protect those who feel like they're not being bad but picked on by mods nonetheless. *shrug* If you can explore the notion as a community, well, it'll help soothe those ruffled, and define those things that are vague. Consensus is good.

So, thanks for clarifying for us. I appreciate it.

[Jenne]

Can I have a definition of what a "sig violation" is?

[SSanf]

I would reduce "Go around our PG-13 censor" to 7 days. I really do not find saying something such as "heck" to substitute for "hell" offensive at all. In fact, I feel offended when such expressive terms are moderated, at all, and get the impression that the moderator has a bug up their rear. (Note the creative substitution.)

(I use those for demonstration. I know there are many worse words.)

Of course, I spent a lot of time in upstate NY where the language is much more colorful and creative than what is acceptable in other parts of the country. I know there is a lot of regional variation in what is considered reasonable terms of expression.

We need a list of what words we cannot use like the Hayes office had. That would be clear to all. Leaving it up to the moderator's individual concept of what words merit an infraction does not allow for regional variations in what is considered acceptable for communication in a public forum. It should be spelled out.

I think there should be a means of appeal to have an infraction removed.

[Shanti]

The pg 13 thing. What words are not allowed and allowed. I use friggin, is that a nono? I use heck a lot.

What exactly are the 'bad' words?

I have used crap and crappy and dam and a bunch of lower rated slang/swear words. I use bull sticks and rats butt too. Oh my that sentence sounds gross!! :lol:

What are bad substitutes?

[mol]

The only words really censored on this board is the F word and G-Damn. That's it. Now, excessive use of words...like every other word being shit and words that are sexually related are consider R-rated...at least here.

[mol]

Can I have a definition of what a "sig violation" is?
Well, sig violations might be a think of the past. The new software contains a sig enforcement mechanism that might make it easier for us to control what users put in their sigs. Sigs that take up half the screen are quite annoying.

[TheWomanMonster]

The pg 13 thing. What words are not allowed and allowed. I use friggin, is that a nono? I use heck a lot.

What exactly are the 'bad' words?

I have used crap and crappy and dam and a bunch of lower rated slang/swear words. I use bull sticks and rats butt too. Oh my that sentence sounds gross!! :lol:

What are bad substitutes?

Actually I've been wondering about that myself...
And does the Rants and Rages thread count?? hehe.

Monster.

[mol]

PG-13, as it pertains to TV PG-13. I know there are guidelines somewhere. Or maybe we just make them here. Discuss!

[SSanf]

I went to the infraction room and noted that the name of the moderator assigning infractions is posted. I think that is a very good thing and should be continued. It sure offers a lot of insight. The conclusion to be drawn is obvious to me.

[Jenne]

Well, sig violations might be a think of the past. The new software contains a sig enforcement mechanism that might make it easier for us to control what users put in their sigs. Sigs that take up half the screen are quite annoying.

Ok, so sig violations might not be much of an issue, then, unless it's an offensive language or picture thing, I suppose?

[Jenne]

PG-13, as it pertains to TV PG-13. I know there are guidelines somewhere. Or maybe we just make them here. Discuss!

The one you have in force now seems cool to me.

I have yet to see anything that's unnecessarily modded vis a vis language on a PG-13 level.

[Shanti]

I have seen pretty bad pg 13 movies that have a lot of swearing in them!!
Not to mention graphic violence that blew my mind. Some R rated I have seen should of been pg 13!! I personally think the rating of movies has not been all that great.

I know its illegal to have porn of any kind around minors, that's law. But is there actually a no swearing around minors law? I'm curious since swearing, at least in my neck of the planet, is common amongst all ages!
I know the F word has that stigma attached to it but there are a lot of words some find offensive and others don't.

Is there some kind of legal guideline?

Gee how do we regulate words and substitutes?

[Infinite Grey]

_inabox_ this infraction system looks painful... I do not think it will be long before I'm banned (after checking out what people were getting infractions for)

[TheWomanMonster]

You're not badass enough to get banned Peacock.
(Oh and does badass count as a swear?)

Monster.

[Shanti]

The only words really censored on this board is the F word and G-Damn. That's it. Now, excessive use of words...like every other word being shit and words that are sexually related are consider R-rated...at least here.
I missed this post!! Oopps.

To be safe maybe &*$%*@# would work?_inabox_

[Philosophia]

hug works better! :hahugh:
For example: **** you!

[Infinite Grey]

You're not badass enough to get banned Peacock.
(Oh and does badass count as a swear?)

Monster.


Look through the infractions... I'm guilty of a least half of what's already been given out... EEP! I'll just shut up now... the enforcers might notice me. :imout:

[TheWomanMonster]

hug works better! :hahugh:
For example: hug you!

But what if I were to say, "Minerva you're so awesome, I want to hug you..."

I think it gets confusing. Or at least... it could.
Creative substitution is all good though.

Monster.

[mol]

I have seen pretty bad pg 13 movies that have a lot of swearing in them!!
Not to mention graphic violence that blew my mind. Some R rated I have seen should of been pg 13!! I personally think the rating of movies has not been all that great.

I know its illegal to have porn of any kind around minors, that's law. But is there actually a no swearing around minors law? I'm curious since swearing, at least in my neck of the planet, is common amongst all ages!
I know the F word has that stigma attached to it but there are a lot of words some find offensive and others don't.

Is there some kind of legal guideline?

Gee how do we regulate words and substitutes?
Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

[DragonsChest]

I went to the Infraction Forum, and read all the posts. I think we shall all need to be very careful around here now. _inabox_

[Infinite Grey]

mmhmmm... I think I'll bail until it settles down.

[Zibblsnrt]

As far as the point system goes, it looks okay. There's going to be different ways to handle that on different sites. One site I'm on has one, in which all offenses short of a handful of insta-bans are worth one point, and some reasonable number (30-50) in a year warrants a ban. That's an idea to consider, anyway.


Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days

Oh, to have had something like this in the Usenet days...


Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)

Two things about this one - a fairly useful definition of "proselytizing" would be necessary being the most important. It's an incredibly subjective thing. If Person X believes A, and Person Y believes B and really loathes A, I can see Person Y spinning almost any positive or defensive mention of A as "proselytizing" and dragging the mods into things which aren't worth their time.

Also, what would you do about what for lack of a better term might be "consentual" proselytizing? Someone specifically asks someone else to convince them on a matter of faith, or a potentially heated yet still-respectful theological/philosophical debate between folks obviously of different and strongly-held viewpoints, etc.

Basically I can see it having a whole lot of false positives; especially in the political, theology, science or astrology forums. Proselytizing is a less obvious sort of thing than spam, porn or calling someone a blight on civilization in need of a fiery culling, so more care needs to be paid towards figuring out what it is. Especially if you're going to come down on someone like a twelfth-storey safe over it.

I also think it should expire, even if it takes awhile to do so or does so in stages. Spam, really hideously out-of-line stuff and ban evasion should really be the only unforgivables.

For dragging PMs and karma into public, there should be degrees in that. Referring to an innocuous PM or k-poke in an obviously non-hostile way shouldn't be an offense at all (assuming the person being referenced doesn't object). Starting a thread or post to quote and publicly go after a PM in detail absolutely should be considered one. The more common response in which people simply whine about them (say, hypothetically, my going "oh, thanks for the red, real nice of you" as opposed to "get a load of what so-and-so karmad me with: (quote)") should fall somewhere between the two extremes, and probably fairly mildly. Personally I consider referencing them like that to be more childish than genuinely offensive, though I would get pissed if someone decided to drag one of my PMs into public to start a fight over it. YMMV.

Past that ... I'm not sure how much I like the idea of the infraction threads being public. You guys have been pretty consistent on the idea that admin modings are not to be discussed publicly; placing them into public threads where anyone can comment only really serves to completely nullify that. Are you sure you want to do a 180 on something like that, as opposed to keeping the discussion (or "discussion") between the offending user and the mod(s)? Witness one of the threads, in which a user responds to a different person getting an infraction by, well, carry the thread into that one.

In other words, what business is it of mine if one of the mods admin-modes someone who isn't me and they want to discuss it? I don't think I should have the permission to read those threads, really, and consider them kind of redundant with the traditional suggestion you guys make of discussing them in private, with the mod in question or others as necessary for a "second opinion."

[Gwenhwyfar]

This reminds me of the automated voices you get when you dial any big business..

[Philosophia]

But what if I were to say, "Minerva you're so awesome, I want to hug you..."

I'm seriously going to question you if you say it! :hahugh: 8O


I think it gets confusing. Or at least... it could.
Creative substitution is all good though.
Monster.

I do agree, but I think it has to be looked at in the context of the message...
For example:
If I write "I ****ing hate you, you dumb ****!" the context is pretty clear.
But if I write "I could just hug you, sweetheart!" its a little shakey but then the relationship of the posters would have to be questioned, i.e. if they know each other well, or personally, or if its just a one off love-fest.
Am I making sense? Probably not..._inabox_

[Infinite Grey]

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days
Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 14 days
Name-calling - 5 point - 7 days
Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)
Adult content posting - 50 points - (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Trolling & Spamming - 50 points (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Publicly displaying PM's and Karma pokes - 10 points - 10 days



hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:

[Zibblsnrt]

hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:

On the one hand, I imagine the mods would frown on that. On the other hand, the idea as a built-into-the-rules excuse to blow off steam (go nuts, tread REALLY quietly for a week) entertains the hell out of me. ;)

[Gwenhwyfar]

hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:


you would pick up on that. :lol:

[Jenne]

I like the window into the modding. I think it's a protection against people feeling picked on. If a group of people strongly object to a moderation...I think they should be able to say so. It's frustrating to watch your friends go down and have to sit silently by, or "report" and admin, which doesn't mean you'll get a follow up pm or even a comment. I've had that happen.

[TheWomanMonster]

Obviously this is a new system and the bugs will be worked out eventually.
What's so bad about watching our words anyways?
Seriously, it's not as though they'll give you an infraction for simply disagreeing with whatever is said. Only if you become offensive or obscene.
Remember... rule 1 = respect.

So yeah, rant over.

monster.

[mol]

I went to the Infraction Forum, and read all the posts. I think we shall all need to be very careful around here now. _inabox_
Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?

[mol]

hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:
Nope, because I will make sure there is an infraction in place for people who constantly break the Rule. =]

[Jenne]

Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?

Eh. Yes and no.

The wizard behind the curtain is more/less revealed now, I think. Seeing the nuts and bolts of what goes on in modding will become uncomfortable for some. I think it's difficult for those who feel it's a private process--what Zibblsnrt was referring to.

Also, how much say we actually HAVE is going to be shown in how effective our words are in those threads. I see a lot of consensus down there NOW...in the dark of night, where there are few of us around. Come the daylight, we'll see.

I think it's a start, and a better one than if we couldn't have our say...but I think I'd think differently if there were more mods than there are now. The more spread out the responsibility, in other words, the better.

[CzechWoods]

I went to the Infraction Forum, and read all the posts. I think we shall all need to be very careful around here now. _inabox_


Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?


i dont think so, mol. i agree with dragons chest.

example:
if someone has given me red karma, and i vent about it i am treated the same way as if i had quoted from a private message.

i dont believe these two are equal.

but i said it before. its your forum, you do what you see fit

[Sequoia]

I have to admit that I'm opposed to the idea.

The whole point of having moderators was so that they could track what folks were doing in a careful way, and make judgements based on context. I suppose using "Naughty Points" could seem like it's more fair, but it doesn't do away with the favouritism or cliques that seem to pop up - you still have to be modded in the first place, after all.

Not only that, but the public debate forums for moderation... I can just see this turning into a horrible public spectacle of flaming and mockery. The PMing system seem to work to me, and if you don't like one mod's treatment, you can CC another mod.

Not to mention that the point system allows for a lot of ass-hole-ery. You can be a complete jerk so long as you do it in incriments. Which is both good and bad.

[Infinite Grey]

Nope, because I will make sure there is an infraction in place for people who constantly break the Rule. =]


hmmm ok then... what constitutes an insult then?

[SSanf]

Past that ... I'm not sure how much I like the idea of the infraction threads being public.
I think it is an excellent idea! If the poster is in the wrong, they won't find any support. But, if the mod has been unfair, the receiver of the infraction can be defended.

Since people will be booted automatically by this system, I think if the poster has NOT been in error, at least, they can appeal to the community at large to seek support in getting the infraction lifted.

There are four advantages.

1. The mods will learn the level of moderation that the entire community really wants.

2. The posters can read and understand the limits better.

3. The chance of a poster being singled out due to some dislike of a moderator is eliminated.

4. It may save your kiester some day.

Making the infractions public is a big improvement on having it all on the hush, hush. It is like the difference between a trial that can be attended by members of the public and secret trials. Which do you really think are better?

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.

[Shanti]

There have been unfair moderations and at least now we have a voice.
That part I like.

[SilverClaw]

So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.
Excuse me i have a problem with this... When I swear in the Primal scream thread I usually do this f---- because that is simply what I do in most forums I go to, and have been doing that long a time. It is not swearing outright, but according to what your saying that would be an example of getting around the censor. Am I understanding this correctly?

[Jenne]

Excuse me i have a problem with this... When I swear in the Primal scream thread I usually do this f---- because that is simply what I do in most forums I go to, and have been doing that long a time. It is not swearing outright, but according to what your saying that would be an example of getting around the censor. Am I understanding this correctly?

*had a question about this too*

I often (I am Teh PottyMouth) say "effing" or "effed up"...

[Penthesilea]

A suggestion. On the forum I moderate we recently had a situation where a very large amount of copyrighted material was posted without the sources being cited and the impression was given that the work was the poster's own. It wasn't until I read a piece that I knew had been written by someone else that the deception was discovered. Since this incident was the latest in an ongoing litany of rule infractions/warnings, the posts were removed and the poster banned from our forum. Consequently, I would suggest that posting copyrighted material in violation of the Fair Use Policy be added to the infraction list with a fairly stiff penalty.

[Jenne]

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.


ITAWTC

And see, SSanf and I RARELY agree on much in PP, but here we are, face to face, a couple of silver---I mean, two of a kind, agreeing here on this very thing.

A chance for the members to be heard out. It's an intimidating process, going from admin to admin, trying to get someone to hear you out. And I think generally, the admins tend to agree on moderations for the most part...bannings I've HEARD not so much, but that was back when there were like 3 more of them to be had.

[mol]

Eh. Yes and no.

The wizard behind the curtain is more/less revealed now, I think. Seeing the nuts and bolts of what goes on in modding will become uncomfortable for some. I think it's difficult for those who feel it's a private process--what Zibblsnrt was referring to.

Also, how much say we actually HAVE is going to be shown in how effective our words are in those threads. I see a lot of consensus down there NOW...in the dark of night, where there are few of us around. Come the daylight, we'll see.

I think it's a start, and a better one than if we couldn't have our say...but I think I'd think differently if there were more mods than there are now. The more spread out the responsibility, in other words, the better.
Oh, no. Reports only go to the admins. =] We still make the decision on whether or not to give an infraction. This merely makes it visible to the public that we, the admins, are not playing favorites...we are doing our jobs. Just because someone reports something doesn't mean we are going to agree with the report...and that is still between just the admins.

[mol]

hmmm ok then... what constitutes an insult then?
Oh, come on.

[SilverClaw]

OP: Penthesilea
Consequently, I would suggest that posting copyrighted material in violation of the Fair Use Policy be added to the infraction list with a fairly stiff penalty

I think that would be a good idea to add as well.

[mol]

I think it is an excellent idea! If the poster is in the wrong, they won't find any support. But, if the mod has been unfair, the receiver of the infraction can be defended.

Since people will be booted automatically by this system, I think if the poster has NOT been in error, at least, they can appeal to the community at large to seek support in getting the infraction lifted.

There are four advantages.

1. The mods will learn the level of moderation that the entire community really wants.

2. The posters can read and understand the limits better.

3. The chance of a poster being singled out due to some dislike of a moderator is eliminated.

4. It may save your kiester some day.

Making the infractions public is a big improvement on having it all on the hush, hush. It is like the difference between a trial that can be attended by members of the public and secret trials. Which do you really think are better?

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.

Great points, SSanf.


There have been unfair moderations and at least now we have a voice.
That part I like.
Yah, just like there have been many a folks who should have been mod'd and were not.

[Shanti]

*had a question about this too*

I often (I am Teh PottyMouth) say "effing" or "effed up"...
I like my friggin. :(
I use it in real life when in the company of verbally sensitive people.
My girlfriend uses fudgin for her substitute! :)

[Brónach Druid]

Wow, I looked at the infractions thread and was pretty amazed. However, I am hoping that as you get all this worked out you will give us good definitions of what you feel constitutes a violations for each infraction. There are some things that I wouldn't have assumed was part of it. For example stating that you received red karma. I didn't realize that it was not allowed to state this or that you were not allowed to tell people if you were happy about a specific good karma. Also will insulting and name calling fall into the same category? It may sound juvenile to spell things out, but I think a well defined list will help eliminate some arguments and confusion. I do think the infraction thread, allowing everyone to voice opinions, is a wonderful idea.
Ok so for what its worth....here are my 2 cents.

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days

Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 10 days

Name-calling -1- 5 point - 7 days
Depending on the severity

Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)
Could you give a little firmer definition to what you are considering as proselytizing? As this is a board of many different religious beliefs. I think sometimes peoples responds in some threads could be considered mild proselytizing. Are you strictly referring to situations like those who sometimes troll the board with those "become a christian now and be saved" type of posts?

Adult content posting - 50 points - (Never expires - basically automatic ban)

Trolling & Spamming - 50 points (Never expires - basically automatic ban)

Publicly displaying PM's - 25 points - 30 days
Publicly displaying Karma pokes - 10 points - 7 days
*I personally feel this should be two separate infractions and the Karma should apply to stating/displaying exact wording only, not stating that you received it.

I would suggest: Opening a new thread with the intent to purposely continue an argument from a closed thread.
15 points - 10 days

I was also wondering will this point system be applied to PM's? That is if someone complains that someone is harassing them via PM or will that have its own point system or be handled in some other way? Or are PM's never controlled by Admin's/Mod's? Just curious....

[Shanti]

Yah, just like there have been many a folks who should have been mod'd and were not. very true!! :)

[Infinite Grey]

Oh, come on.

I'm serious! Insulting content changes from culture to culture, this is an international forum right? I'm just curious.

[mol]

Excuse me i have a problem with this... When I swear in the Primal scream thread I usually do this f---- because that is simply what I do in most forums I go to, and have been doing that long a time. It is not swearing outright, but according to what your saying that would be an example of getting around the censor. Am I understanding this correctly?
I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.

[mol]

I'm serious! Insulting content changes from culture to culture, this is an international forum right? I'm just curious.
Look up TV PG-13 guidelines in Google then. Use the one up at the top on the right of the forums. =} Anyway, no way am I going to spell out what can be said and what can't. Respect each other. The rule is not changing. We are writng up infractions that consitute the Rule.

[Philosophia]

Publicly displaying PM's - 25 points - 30 days
Publicly displaying Karma pokes - 10 points - 7 days
*I personally feel this should be two separate infractions and the Karma should apply to stating/displaying exact wording only, not stating that you received it.

I agree with this! When I get red karma, I sometimes brag about it but I don't state what the message was.


I was also wondering will this point system be applied to PM's? That is if someone complains that someone is harassing them via PM or will that have its own point system or be handled in some other way? Or are PM's never controlled by Admin's/Mod's? Just curious....

Very good question! :hugz:

[Infinite Grey]

Look up TV PG-13 guidelines in Google then. Use the one up at the top on the right of the forums. =} Anyway, no way am I going to spell out what can be said and what can't. Respect each other. The rule is not changing. We are writng up infractions that consitute the Rule.

fair enough, US guidelines then :lol:

[Jenne]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.

So no use of "effed up" or "effing" then? Those are lexicalized words that signal the f-bomb but don't it literally.

Also, "friggin" and "fricken" are stepchildren of the f-bomb + -ing...what's their status? They're usually allowed in PG-13 media, as far as I can tell.

I'm just asking so I can avoid the "f-bomb" infraction.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Heh, not to sound disrespectful, but I think this infraction system sounds absolutely awful. It seems incredibly restrictive, and it's already making me overanalyse my posts and make sure I put things delicately so that nobody, naive second-graders included, could perhaps be even mildly offended by anything I may or may not have to offer to discussion. And that's not what MW is about - or, at least, that's not at all the impression I got since I joined two years ago. It's about free-flowing discussion, not censorship.

And if it's not, it should be.

[mol]

I agree with this! When I get red karma, I sometimes brag about it but I don't state what the message was.



Very good question! :hugz:

That's a good point. And I just gave a stiff infraction to someone for saying that they received red karma...they mentioned WHO gave it, but not who said it. How about that?


fair enough, US guidelines then :lol:

Thank you!


So no use of "effed up" or "effing" then? Those are lexicalized words that signal the f-bomb but don't it literally.

Also, "friggin" and "fricken" are stepchildren of the f-bomb + -ing...what's their status? They're usually allowed in PG-13 media, as far as I can tell.

I'm just asking so I can avoid the "f-bomb" infraction.

Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.

[mol]

Could you give a little firmer definition to what you are considering as proselytizing? As this is a board of many different religious beliefs. I think sometimes peoples responds in some threads could be considered mild proselytizing. Are you strictly referring to situations like those who sometimes troll the board with those "become a christian now and be saved" type of posts?

I was also wondering will this point system be applied to PM's? That is if someone complains that someone is harassing them via PM or will that have its own point system or be handled in some other way? Or are PM's never controlled by Admin's/Mod's? Just curious....

Being harassed via PM? Tell the person not contact you again and put them on ignore. Problem solved. Proselytyzing, to me, means trying to convert someone to another religion or Path. Witnessing, etc.


Heh, not to sound disrespectful, but I think this infraction system sounds absolutely awful. It seems incredibly restrictive, and it's already making me overanalyse my posts and make sure I put things delicately so that nobody, naive second-graders included, could perhaps be even mildly offended by anything I may or may not have to offer to discussion. And that's not what MW is about - or, at least, that's not at all the impression I got since I joined two years ago. It's about free-flowing discussion, not censorship.

And if it's not, it should be.

You mean it's actually making you *think* about what you are saying before you post? ;)

[Jenne]

Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.

*shrug* I think I'd be LUCKY if I got a 12 year old who only said "fricken," but I think this is where the rubber meets the road. I don't see "shit" as better than "fricken"...personally. In fact, growing up, I had a mother who allowed butt, darn and friggen but not fart, hell or shit...

So, this is where microcultural differences will vary, and the decision will be yours.

It's frustrating, since I know PG-13 includes allusions to things...but this may be interpreted differently person-to-person.

[mol]

*shrug* I think I'd be LUCKY if I got a 12 year old who only said "fricken," but I think this is where the rubber meets the road. I don't see "shit" as better than "fricken"...personally. In fact, growing up, I had a mother who allowed butt, darn and friggen but not fart, hell or shit...

So, this is where microcultural differences will vary, and the decision will be yours.

It's frustrating, since I know PG-13 includes allusions to things...but this may be interpreted differently person-to-person.
=] You know...people are already making this out to be more than it is. This is still a community moderated, um, community. Has anyone ever reported you for saying f---- in the rant thread? I have never seen it. And therefore you would probably never get an infraction for that.

[Shanti]

PP will never be the same.

But hey this test my colorful metaphoric expression talent!!! :)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

You mean it's actually making you *think* about what you are saying before you post? ;)

Not at all.

What I mean is that it's probably going to make people dumb down what they have to say in order to make it easier to swallow, and be ovely concerned with not stepping on any toes rather than actually voicing concerns, opinions, and knowledge.

[Philosophia]

That's a good point. And I just gave a stiff infraction to someone for saying that they received red karma...they mentioned WHO gave it, but not who said it. How about that?

Thats fine. _inabox_

[maphdet]

Alright...So are there new rules or the same 'respect' rule?

That is a genuine question, because I am Real confused now.

[SSanf]

Ok, so we can't say, "I got a red karma poke" even if we don't mention who gave it, right?

Or, can we say that but cannot mention who gave it to protect people who give them from abuse?

I don't understand the harm in saying."I got a red karma poke". But, I understand it not being cool to tell who is handing them out.

[mol]

PP will never be the same.

But hey this test my colorful metaphoric expression talent!!! :)


Not at all.

What I mean is that it's probably going to make people dumb down what they have to say in order to make it easier to swallow, and be ovely concerned with not stepping on any toes rather than actually voicing concerns, opinions, and knowledge.

Hehe. So, yes, it will make people think more before they post. =]

[Jenne]

=] You know...people are already making this out to be more than it is. This is still a community moderated, um, community. Has anyone ever reported you for saying f---- in the rant thread? I have never seen it. And therefore you would probably never get an infraction for that.

You're right. Usually it has to be brought to the attention of an admin before it's even noticed and then brought to bear.

LOL It's a little harrying, though, I guess. Censorship is NEVER fun, even if it's just, like I said, the man behind the curtain.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Hehe. So, yes, it will make people think more before they post. =]

My concern is that the larger picture of what's trying to be said will be lost in the self-censorship people will have to inflict upon themselves, which could be unnecessary.

[Jenne]

Ok, so we can't say, "I got a red karma poke" even if we don't mention who gave it, right?

Or, can we say that but cannot mention who gave it to protect people who give them from abuse?

I think this is it. You can mention the red karma but not who gave it...this is actually what I do as a general rule. I rarely mention who gave it, just that I got it for stating what I'd said.

[mol]

Alright...So are there new rules or the same 'respect' rule?

That is a genuine question, because I am Real confused now.

No new rule. The same one. Just different way of handling moderations. Respect. =]


Ok, so we can't say, "I got a red karma poke" even if we don't mention who gave it, right?

Or, can we say that but cannot mention who gave it to protect people who give them from abuse?

I don't understand the harm in saying."I got a red karma poke". But, I understand it not being cool to tell who is handing them out.

Hahaha! You guys are killing me. Keep it simple. No displaying of private messages or karma without consent of the other person. Done.


My concern is that the larger picture of what's trying to be said will be lost in the self-censorship people will have to inflict upon themselves, which could be unnecessary.

*whistles*

[SilverClaw]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.

Ok I realized I have used in the rant forum, and the helping hands forum when I rant about the crap going on in my life.
But as I said before it is just the way I have typed in forums for awhile and mean no disrespect to you if it happens again. And no I am not planning on doing it deliberatly but I am aware that sometimes I make mistakes and I do forget sometimes.

But ya know something that just hit me is personal pms. If want to vent to someone in pms I think that is a bit much to have the words censored in there to ya know. (Just my opinion.)


Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.
Gee my 9 year old says worse then Fricken....
As I said above I can change it may take me awhile, but you just cannot change certain habits over night.



Oh and by the way when I self censor it does not just go for the f word I do it for others as well.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

But ya know something that just hit me is personal pms. If want to vent to someone in pms I think that is a bit much to have the words censored in there to ya know. (Just my opinion.)
.
Ahh no way -

Personal PMs will be censored too?

You've gotta be joking...

[Anubis]

so exactly what are the siggy guidelines?.. Kind of hard to avoid an infraction if they aren't posted somewhere (and no I'm not tryin' to being a buggar about it.. it's just cause I don't know!)

[SSanf]

I don't expect the moderation to be any tougher than it has been in the past. Probably, it will be about the same.

[mol]

Ok I realized I have used in the rant forum, and the helping hands forum when I rant about the crap going on in my life.
But as I said before it is just the way I have typed in forums for awhile and mean no disrespect to you if it happens again. And no I am not planning on doing it deliberatly but I am aware that sometimes I make mistakes.

But ya know something that just hit me is personal pms. If want to vent to someone in pms I think that is a bit much to have the words censored in there to ya know. (Just my opinion.)


Gee my 9 year old says worse then Fricken....
As I said above we can it is just going to be hard to change certain habits that we have had,or actually I have had for awhile just like that.

The system doesn't care if its a post or pm. I can't tell it to not do one or the other. If I could I would. I say the F word all the time. Check MWad out sometime.

Anyway, the RULE is not changing folks. You need to get that through your heads right now...FIRST...the way we handle moderations...ADMIN MODES...that is what is changing. Not the Rule. it's been the same forever. Geez.

Re-read my post and perhaps give me infractions, points, and times...

[Brónach Druid]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the board will continue to be monitored the same way it always has been. That is not the change. The only change is how the "punishment" is given and that we now have the privilege of giving our own opinions on it. As well as right now we are being asked our opinion on what we feel is the appropriate amount of points to assign those "punishments". Am I misunderstanding?

[mol]

Ahh no way -

Personal PMs will be censored too?

You've gotta be joking...
Oh, good grief.

[mol]

I don't expect the moderation to be any tougher than it has been in the past. Probably, it will be about the same.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the board will continue to be monitored the same way it always has been. That is not the change. The only change is how the "punishment" is given and that we now have the privilege of giving our own opinions on it. As well as right now we are being asked our opinion on what we feel is the appropriate amount of points to assign those "punishments". Am I misunderstanding?

DING! DING! DING! You get the prize.

[SSanf]

Re-read my post and perhaps give me infractions, points, and times...LOL!! What if the system banned Mol!!

[SilverClaw]

The system doesn't care if its a post or pm. I can't tell it to not do one or the other. If I could I would. I say the F word all the time. Check MWad out sometime.
I know that but it is still something that irks me, and as for MWAD I do not need to check it out considering..

Anyways those were all the concerns I had so, I will let it be.

[Tanya]

I was just looking in the infraction room... more banned words are emerging...
I fear we have hit the slippery slope already.

yipe!

[maphdet]

So is language a no no?
If so...Umm how will that be handled?

Again i am just asking because I am confused as can be.

[mol]

LOL!! What if the system banned Mol!!
That would be called 'vacation'.

[Sequoia]

It seems like censorship. Honestly. How did "falk" or "cripes" or "freakin'" ever hurt anyone?

And frankly, any parent who lets their kids run rampant on a message board (isn't this what MW Kids is for?) should be watching them.

This is getting a littley PC-crazy.

[mol]

I was just looking in the infraction room... more banned words are emerging...
I fear we have hit the slippery slope already.

yipe!
Really? Where are they?!!!

[SSanf]

We will have to see that you get a vacation once a year like any normal person has a right to. LOL!!

[mol]

It seems like censorship. Honestly. How did "falk" or "cripes" or "freakin'" ever hurt anyone?

And frankly, any parent who lets their kids run rampant on a message board (isn't this what MW Kids is for?) should be watching them.

This is getting a littley PC-crazy.
And I think you might be overanalyzing and not reading my first post. We are still going under the one rule of Respect. We need infraction levels. I asked for the communities help. If you all don't want a part in it then we will just take it back to the admin forum and figure it out.

*shrugs*

Whatever.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Oh, good grief.

Good grief yourself. You could have just answered my question. :)

[SSanf]

I think mountain...mole hill.. To get an infraction, you need to either be reported or the moderator has to stumble accross your post and take exception. Then, they think about if it deserves an infraction, considering the context. If they think it does, you get one but have a chance to appeal to the community at large if you don't think you deserve it and state your case. If you lose, just be good for a few days and it drops off your record. This seems like it will be pretty hard to get kicked out unless you are really trying.

What is everyone so worried about? Just because it is new?

And, I think the main thing is don't say F or any variation of it (like I just did). Don't say G-damn. And don't use what are commonly known as derogatory terms. And, since we all pretty much already know what they are and don't generally use them anyway, for the most part, this is no change.

Don't insult people any more than you already do. If you happen to do that, lay low and don't do it again for a few days. Don't get into a poop throwing contest and rack a bunch of infractions all up at the same time or you are in hot water.

[mol]

Good grief yourself. You could have just answered my question. :)
Pm's have never been censored. They are private. They were talking about the word filter that filters out the F-word and GD and I said there is no way to tell it to do it here on the boards and not in PM's. Hehe.

Good grief...this is cracking me up.

[Jenne]

mol:

I can see you growing frustrated because the intent of your OP isn't being met.

Again, all I can see is the "wizard" has been exposed...you're going to get a lot of concern on that front alone. Remember what happened? You're amazed, you're bewildered, and you wonder "why?"

I feel bad because you are giving us a great gift here, to be able to infiltrate what by rights, because you are site-god, is your territory. Be that as it may, our reactions are simply honest and concern for the good of not only our own welfare but that of the community as well. I see little else here, amongst those posting.

I don't think I belong in this thread, because I can't honestly say that I *know* how many points to give for "friggen" or for mentioning that so-and-so gave red karma. I don't agree with the infraction itself. I cannot give a point system for something I see as unfair. But I do thank you the opportunity to say so.

I hope this proves less frustrating for you. This might cause more trouble than its worth. Distributing the responsibility for modding people might come in an easier package...say, more admins to do the duty and weigh the choices.

Just mho. *bows out*

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Pm's have never been censored. They are private. They were talking about the word filter that filters out the F-word and GD and I said there is no way to tell it to do it here on the boards and not in PM's. Hehe.

Good grief...this is cracking me up.

You shouldn't poke fun at other peoples' confusion. We aren't all godly like you, you know.


:ballonsmi

[Anubis]

Me and my little devil duckie are invisible.. aren't we?... *sighs* ok..

[mol]

I think mountain...mole hill.. To get an infraction, you need to either be reported or the moderator has to stumble accross your post and take exception. Then, they think about if it deserves an infraction, considering the context. If they think it does, you get one but have a chance to appeal to the community at large if you don't think you deserve it and state your case. If you lose, just be good for a few days and it drops off your record. This seems like it will be pretty hard to get kicked out unless you are really trying.

What is everyone so worried about? Just because it is new?
Exactly...its the same as always...we (the admins) just thought everyone would want to get involved with the infraction assignment/points process.

[mol]

You shouldn't poke fun at other peoples' confusion. We aren't all godly like you, you know.


:ballonsmi
LMAO! =] It was purely joking...friendly kind.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

LMAO! =] It was purely joking...friendly kind.


Good. :)

[mol]

LMAO! =] It was purely joking...friendly kind.
I have to sleep. Work in the morning. Please, for the love of all that's holy, unholy, whatever matters most to you...read my post and stop thinking about rules and what you can and cannot say and just give us some help like I requested.

If it look like people are getting to paranoid by tomorrow I am closing the thread and moving it to the admin forum and then we will just get on with this thing that is MW that has made 2 changes...one we are going by a point system instead of pure opinion and two, you now have a forum to discuss moderations.

Night all.

93!

[maphdet]

Mol, I like the respect rule...But it is a Hard one to follow, as I do not know what it is that I will say that will disrespect someone else.

I have had that thought from day one. But it always seemed that somehow
MW made it possible to have a one rule like that.

I am not sure this new system of infractions will be helpfull...because it catogorizes respect. (ie language, posting of karma, and such) It becomes more than the respect rule.

sorry that did not help much or make as much sence as I'd hoped it would.

[SSanf]

Nite. I think everyone will like it once they are used to it and see that the world, as they know it, isn't coming to an end.

[lightdragon]

i dont think so, mol. i agree with dragons chest.

example:
if someone has given me red karma, and i vent about it i am treated the same way as if i had quoted from a private message.

i dont believe these two are equal.

but i said it before. its your forum, you do what you see fit
i`m agreeing with Czechwoods here on this aspect.
As for the infraction points for adult content. I would think 25 points (never expires) would be a little better. Or there should a division on what type of adult content is being issued here. Also the same would go for trolling. These IMO should have different infraction points.

[Mouse]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologise in advance if this has already been covered.

Would there be a way to take all threads from the Infraction forum so that they could not show up in the "new posts"? Or perhaps members could be contacted through PM if they incur infractions, and then if they feel they would like to discuss it they start their own thread in the infraction forum?

I understand why the system is set up the way it is at the moment, but I think that members should have that option, because IMO it seems like a form of public humiliation. Basically "Be good or we'll stand you on a street corner with a large sign" kinda thing. Am I making sense?

Sleep well.

[Shanti]

Me and my little devil duckie are invisible.. aren't we?... *sighs* ok..I see you!!
I dont know exactly what the sig rules are either. Ever since, 'keep it not to big', I have been confused!!LOL

[mol]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologise in advance if this has already been covered.

Would there be a way to take all threads from the Infraction forum so that they could not show up in the "new posts"? Or perhaps members could be contacted through PM if they incur infractions, and then if they feel they would like to discuss it they start their own thread in the infraction forum?

I understand why the system is set up the way it is at the moment, but I think that members should have that option, because IMO it seems like a form of public humiliation. Basically "Be good or we'll stand you on a street corner with a large sign" kinda thing. Am I making sense?

Sleep well.

I dont think so. I think it only allows all or nothing. We had it originally going into the admin forum where members couldnt see or respond. We decided this might be a good way to get the community involved in its own self-moderation again.


I see you!!
I dont know exactly what the sig rules are either. Ever since, 'keep it not to big', I have been confused!!LOL

Yah, me too. Haven't figured out the sig stuff yet and I am ignoring no one. Just hard to respond to everyone as fast as the posts are comign in.

Sleep. Night.

[demonique]

I would suggest: Opening a new thread with the intent to purposely continue an argument from a closed thread.
15 points - 10 days

I would second this.

[Mouse]

I'm not saying that we (the general MW population) shouldn't be alowed to respond to the moderations, because I think that's a great idea.
I just think it should be the individuals choice on whether or not their moderation is put out for discussion.

[Sequoia]

Oh, well... If you still have to be reported first, and if I can still say "WTF" and falk, I'm happy. :p I just got the wrong impression that you'd have some sort of Infraction Bot policing us. :lol: Can't argue with a line of code like you can argue with Xentor!

...

Well, you can try to argue with Xen, anyway. The bot would completely ignore you. :p :heartthro

[Shanti]

Oh, well... If you still have to be reported first, and if I can still say "WTF" and falk, I'm happy. :p I just got the wrong impression that you'd have some sort of Infraction Bot policing us. :lol: Can't argue with a line of code like you can argue with Xentor!

...

Well, you can try to argue with Xen, anyway. The bot would completely ignore you. :p :heartthro
From what I understand, you can be reported for WTF Just like you can be reported for F---- or friggin, fricked and so on. And thus you can get an infraction. No F substitutes.
Someone would just have to report you.

[Silvan]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.Oh come on.

You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand.

I see where this is all going, and I clearly need to leave before I eventually get kicked off. I hate "hugging" censorship, and if you're going to start handing out these little scraps of toilet paper over words like "frigging" or "cracker" then my fate is sealed already.

I have just relinquished my MW webspace, and will finish out my presence here once a couple of loose threads are tied up.

I will close by pointing out that while I am clearly positioned to get infractioned out of existence under this absurd new scheme, no one has ever complained to me about my language in the past, even though I have very definitely taken steps to circumvent the Playskool filter, and, I suppose, in so doing, to flip you the middle finger; much as I am doing right now. I conclude, therefore, that if anyone was offended, of injured parties, or any moderators, nobody was sufficiently offended to take any action, or make any complaint in public or in private.

I am taking this position pro-actively, to forestall the inevitable. I will not be able to get along in this brave new world you're cooking up, and neither will many of the most interesting people here, for that matter.

I say disrespect is in the eye of the beholder, as a private matter between offender and offendee. I think arbitrary rules such as those being discussed in this forum are the road to turning that glorious oak tree I once wrote you about into Pee Wee's Playhouse.

And yes, you can argue that MWAD is available as a platform for using all the naughty language one might desire. The problem is there is no real overlap between the two boards. I won't elaborate on that point here, but think about these two boards, and ask yourself if MWAD is MW uncensored, or something else entirely. All I will say on that is that MWAD is not a satisfactory redress to my grievance here, and its existence doesn't mitigate my vehement reaction to this new trend in any way.

(And yes, I probably violated the Fair Use policy by not quoting what movie the above text came from. Good. Throw another log on the fire, and get me infractioned out of this preschool playground post haste.)

[LostSheep]

Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?

except it's now discussed publicly, which i do not like at all.

i thought when it was announced, these would be private. That appears not to be the case. And isn't publicly displaying PMs for all to see an infraction in itself?

No displaying of private messages or karma without consent of the other person. Done. :eyebrow:
i don't like this. Don't like this at all.

[Agaliha]

Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

Okay, I'm still reading all 12 pages of this thread. Not quite done yet, but...
Just curious.
Would posing "F***ing" be an infraction?
Would: b!tch?
Would: Sh!t?

A list of accpetable words and their accpetable substitutes would really be helpful.

Also Are my Gods and Goddesses a Week threads an infraction? If so I'll just scratch that idea. :(
Here are a few for you to read/see and decide:
Pele {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=137413)
Sheila-na-gig {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136898)
El {God of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136532)
I really hope I don't get any infractions for the ones already done, I've been doing them off and on for a year-ish with no peep from anyone. :2G: I'll be pissed.

[Shanti]

Okay, I'm still reading all 12 pages of this thread. Not quite done yet, but...
Just curious.
Would posing "F***ing" be an infraction?
Would: b!tch?
Would: Sh!t?

A list of accpetable words and their accpetable substitutes would really be helpful.


Also Are in Gods and Goddesses a Week threads an infraction? If so I'll just scratch that idea. :(
Here are a few for you to read/see and decide:
Pele {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=137413)
Sheila-na-gig {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136898)
El {God of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136532)
I've been through the questions already.
F***ing is an infraction if someone reports it.
The others are not, I believe, unless used a lot.
Its just the F and GM word and their substitutes, if they get reported.

I personally know if I got an infraction for a substitute like friggen, I would not be happy, especially knowing there are tons of substitutes out there!

[Agaliha]

I've been through the questions already.
F***ing is an infraction if someone reports it.
The others are not, I believe, unless used a lot.
Its just the F and GM word and their substitutes, if they get reported.

I personally know if I got an infraction for a substitute like friggen, I would not be happy, especially knowing there are tons of substitutes out there!

Ok, then. Well I hope no one reports it :2G:

[Shanti]

Ok, then. Well I hope no one reports it :2G: Yeah, sure. As long as someone who doesn't agree with your perspective doesn't what to have a little fun at your expense.

[Fluffmeister]

Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

You see, this is where the problems arise.

In the UK, the G-damn word is considered so mild that very few people would consider it unsuitable to use in front of kids. In fact, I was astonished when I jokingly used it on an American forum to be greeted with the cyber equivalent of shocked looks - I had absolutely no idea it was considered rude in America until very recently. I would have been a bit pissed off to have been banned for using what I considered a very mild and rather "jokey" swearword simply for being unaware of the difference in culture.

This is probably to do with the fact that the UK is far less Christian than the US; I would have thought that a international pagan-oriented forum would also be less Christian than the US, of course :)

However, in the UK what is unacceptable - and would be in most forum swear filters - are racist terms. Using the G word is the norm, using the F word is a bit risque but not that unusual, using racist terms would be an absolute no-no.

So what I'm saying is that MW risks becoming culturally biased by saying, in effect, "the G word is a no-no because Americans don't like it, but it's OK to use the W word because that only pisses off the Brits".

[Fluffmeister]

Look up TV PG-13 guidelines in Google then.

I have. As a non-US member, I hadn't come across TV PG-13 before. Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_rating_system) gives a list of ratings in the US, which includes PG-14 but not PG-13, and just gives ticks for moderate violence, swearing, sexual references and so on.

Any chance of a link that tells us foreigners what PG-13 actually means in terms of words we can and can't use? Come on guys, MW is an *international* forum and whereas these American terms may be second nature and obvious to you, they're pretty meaningless to those of us outside the US.

[Shanti]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.
I went and to a shower, got ready for bed but this one thing is really bothering me. I have to set the record straight for my own self.
I don't disrespect you!! This assumption is an insult to me.

My intent and using substitute F words is not anywhere close to disrespecting you or the rules in anyway.

In fact it is out of respect that I say friggin. I have an emotion, feeling to express that the F word is most appropriate for, in my speech. But, out of respect, I do not use the banned word. I use a substitute.

IMO this isn't banning a word, its banning an expression. Friggin and fricken and the like and even f--- are not swear words. They are just words or abbreviations of words that express the same emotion in a given statement as the real banned word would of provided, if it were not banned.

Just had to get that off my chest. Everywhere in life I go, even the docs office and people are using substitute f words. That's what they do to respect the people who don't like the real thing.

Its your forum, do as you may, but I don't use substitutes out of disrespect. That blanketed assumption or whatever was just insulting.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I have to agree with Shanti, I use the work friggin when I talk...I dont mean ****ing, when I say it, I mean frigging...whats so wrong with frigging??...and I also have to say after understanding this infaction system, I think it sucks. I think if it stays in place alot of people will be leaving.

[Kaylara]

People, it's very easy. If you get around the language filter. (ie, you still find a way to say the word, despite the filter.) that's an infraction. I'm not going to turn around and give infractions every time I see friggin' or shit or bitch. If you use a word that gets changed by the filter and then go back and make changes to the post in such a way that it posts the regular word, that's an infraction.

And I'm much meaner than you all. I said that if you go around that filter you should get 2/3 of the total amount of points available since it shows that you're specifically trying to create problems. (And to be honest, usually the only people who do this are trolls anyways.)

[Kaylara]

Oh come on.

You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand.

I see where this is all going, and I clearly need to leave before I eventually get kicked off. I hate "hugging" censorship, and if you're going to start handing out these little scraps of toilet paper over words like "frigging" or "cracker" then my fate is sealed already.

I have just relinquished my MW webspace, and will finish out my presence here once a couple of loose threads are tied up.

I will close by pointing out that while I am clearly positioned to get infractioned out of existence under this absurd new scheme, no one has ever complained to me about my language in the past, even though I have very definitely taken steps to circumvent the Playskool filter, and, I suppose, in so doing, to flip you the middle finger; much as I am doing right now. I conclude, therefore, that if anyone was offended, of injured parties, or any moderators, nobody was sufficiently offended to take any action, or make any complaint in public or in private.

I am taking this position pro-actively, to forestall the inevitable. I will not be able to get along in this brave new world you're cooking up, and neither will many of the most interesting people here, for that matter.

I say disrespect is in the eye of the beholder, as a private matter between offender and offendee. I think arbitrary rules such as those being discussed in this forum are the road to turning that glorious oak tree I once wrote you about into Pee Wee's Playhouse.

And yes, you can argue that MWAD is available as a platform for using all the naughty language one might desire. The problem is there is no real overlap between the two boards. I won't elaborate on that point here, but think about these two boards, and ask yourself if MWAD is MW uncensored, or something else entirely. All I will say on that is that MWAD is not a satisfactory redress to my grievance here, and its existence doesn't mitigate my vehement reaction to this new trend in any way.

(And yes, I probably violated the Fair Use policy by not quoting what movie the above text came from. Good. Throw another log on the fire, and get me infractioned out of this preschool playground post haste.)

This filter has been in place for years. It's not changing now. Instead, when the admins are going to warn someone, it actually has an effect instead of the person just going 'yeah, whatever' and continuing to do so. There's also a chance now for public redress of your complaints. To be honest I didn't think that this would be such a sticking point for people either, since it's been in place and working for years without it being an issue.

[Infinite Grey]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.




People, it's very easy. If you get around the language filter. (ie, you still find a way to say the word, despite the filter.) that's an infraction. I'm not going to turn around and give infractions every time I see friggin' or shit or bitch. If you use a word that gets changed by the filter and then go back and make changes to the post in such a way that it posts the regular word, that's an infraction.

And I'm much meaner than you all. I said that if you go around that filter you should get 2/3 of the total amount of points available since it shows that you're specifically trying to create problems. (And to be honest, usually the only people who do this are trolls anyways.)

What about equivalent words in other languages? :bigblue:

[Infinite Grey]

OH OH will there be an infraction for purposely derailing a thread?

[Kaylara]

Don't tempt me man. We don't allow those particular words in any language. If you use those words in another language and it gets reported or an admin sees it, you will get an infraction.

[Deranged Hermit]

Forgive me if I repeat anything, I read about halfway through the thread, and will read the rest when I can.
About getting around the filter, and the "creative" uses of F and GD... if there's a 12 yr old here who is going to be offended or scarred by anything that gets around the auto-filter concerning those 2 terms, then they should absolutely not be here. There is plenty in every forum every day that is far, far worse than seeing the word "friggin". And don't tell me I should be reporting it then, because I'm sure everyone here knows it's the truth, and that that's the nature of a public forum.

In regard to not posting anything from karma pokes or PM's...
I don't think karma pokes are really anything to get that worked up about, one way or another. People discuss karma pokes all the time, and I don't see any reason for there to be an infraction about it. :whatgives
As far as PM's though, yes I agree that posting all or part of a PM should be an infraction, in most cases. Of course if someone receives a PM and the sender asks that it be shared with the community, that's different. I have, on occasion, forwarded a PM to get another point of view about it or something. At the time, I didn't realize what a violation of privacy it was, since we all know that the admins can read everything, and that nothing on the internet is truly secure.
I was wondering, though, perhaps the "forward" option should be removed from PM's. Or replaced by an option that allows them to be forwarded to you (mol) only, as I did with a PM I received from a spammer once. Just a thought.

Well, I've probably said quite enough for now. There's my nickel's worth. ;)

[Kaylara]

OH OH will there be an infraction for purposely derailing a thread?

I like that. How many points would you give for it?

[Infinite Grey]

Don't tempt me man. We don't allow those particular words in any language. If you use those words in another language and it gets reported or an admin sees it, you will get an infraction.

What about "made up" profanity?

[Infinite Grey]

I like that. How many points would you give for it?


oh I don't know, 5?.. except if I do it of cuz... I iz 2 spetool 4 da rulz


on second thought... forget I even mentioned it... hun-tun I'm an idiot.

[Kaylara]

Forgive me if I repeat anything, I read about halfway through the thread, and will read the rest when I can.
About getting around the filter, and the "creative" uses of F and GD... if there's a 12 yr old here who is going to be offended or scarred by anything that gets around the auto-filter concerning those 2 terms, then they should absolutely not be here. There is plenty in every forum every day that is far, far worse than seeing the word "friggin". And don't tell me I should be reporting it then, because I'm sure everyone here knows it's the truth, and that that's the nature of a public forum.

Read up, I already mentioned that one.



In regard to not posting anything from karma pokes or PM's...
I don't think karma pokes are really anything to get that worked up about, one way or another. People discuss karma pokes all the time, and I don't see any reason for there to be an infraction about it. :whatgives
As far as PM's though, yes I agree that posting all or part of a PM should be an infraction, in most cases. Of course if someone receives a PM and the sender asks that it be shared with the community, that's different. I have, on occasion, forwarded a PM to get another point of view about it or something. At the time, I didn't realize what a violation of privacy it was, since we all know that the admins can read everything, and that nothing on the internet is truly secure.
I was wondering, though, perhaps the "forward" option should be removed from PM's. Or replaced by an option that allows them to be forwarded to you (mol) only, as I did with a PM I received from a spammer once. Just a thought.

Well, I've probably said quite enough for now. There's my nickel's worth. ;)


The problem is that people try to drag their karma pokes or pm's into threads to create drama, admonish people or publically humiliate them, or to derail the thread. If you're doing any of those above things, you'll get an infraction, period. And people shouldn't be posting pm's without the permission of the person who sent it.

BTW, the admins can't read your pm's unless you send them a copy.

[Infinite Grey]

how long does a bannin' last?

[Kaylara]

What about "made up" profanity?

Made up? Like, fork ewe?

[Kaylara]

how long does a bannin' last?
Well, we're figuring that out. Spamming and trolling will get you insta-banned and it will never be lifted. We're working on how long the other lengths will be. Do you have any suggestions?

[Infinite Grey]

Made up? Like, fork ewe?

like tooki you! or kiss my teddybear!

[Infinite Grey]

Well, we're figuring that out. Spamming and trolling will get you insta-banned and it will never be lifted. We're working on how long the other lengths will be. Do you have any suggestions?

not for very long... else there'll be a population decrease in no time. I only say this because the infractions so far have been for some pretty petty stuff... though that's probably just the breaking-in period... though some MWers will rack up a banning very quickly if the standards remain as they are.

[Deranged Hermit]

From what I understand, you can be reported for WTF Just like you can be reported for F---- or friggin, fricked and so on. And thus you can get an infraction. No F substitutes.
Someone would just have to report you.

:hairraise

does this mean I can't use these smilies anymore?

:wtf: _wth_ :wth: :bastard:

[Infinite Grey]

:hairraise

does this mean I can't use these smilies anymore?

:wtf: _wth_ :wth: :bastard:

bwahaha I'm goign to report ye!

[Kaylara]

:hairraise

does this mean I can't use these smilies anymore?

:wtf: _wth_ :wth: :bastard:

_wedgie_

Orly... Read what I already posted.

[Deranged Hermit]

I went and to a shower, got ready for bed but this one thing is really bothering me. I have to set the record straight for my own self.
I don't disrespect you!! This assumption is an insult to me.

My intent and using substitute F words is not anywhere close to disrespecting you or the rules in anyway.

In fact it is out of respect that I say friggin. I have an emotion, feeling to express that the F word is most appropriate for, in my speech. But, out of respect, I do not use the banned word. I use a substitute.

IMO this isn't banning a word, its banning an expression. Friggin and fricken and the like and even f--- are not swear words. They are just words or abbreviations of words that express the same emotion in a given statement as the real banned word would of provided, if it were not banned.

Just had to get that off my chest. Everywhere in life I go, even the docs office and people are using substitute f words. That's what they do to respect the people who don't like the real thing.

Its your forum, do as you may, but I don't use substitutes out of disrespect. That blanketed assumption or whatever was just insulting.


Well put, Shanti! :thumbsup: I also felt insulted at the assumption that I was trying to be disrespectful. I'm a lot more blunt than that, as most everyone here knows by now!

[Deranged Hermit]

_wedgie_

Orly... Read what I already posted.

well I was just kiddin' that time! ;) :D

[Fluffmeister]

BTW, the admins can't read your pm's unless you send them a copy.

Mods can't, admin can. This doesn't mean to say that admin *do* read them, just that they *can* read them. This is a feature of the vBulletin software, on which MW runs. Sometimes this is necessary for legal reasons.

[Kaylara]

Mods can't, admin can. This doesn't mean to say that admin *do* read them, just that they *can* read them. This is a feature of the vBulletin software, on which MW runs. Sometimes this is necessary for legal reasons.

I'm an admin here, I think I'd know whether or not I can read your pm's. On this site, admins can't read pm's. The only one who would be able to is Mol, and I highly doubt that he has the time or the inclination to go around reading people's pm's.

[Infinite Grey]

I'm an admin here, I think I'd know whether or not I can read your pm's. On this site, admins can't read pm's. The only one who would be able to is Mol, and I highly doubt that he has the time or the inclination to go around reading people's pm's.


I think that's what he meant

[StephanieAine]

The proselytizing infraction thing concerns me. Different people think proselytizing means different things. Certainly, there is *obvious* proselytizing, but sometimes there's a fine line, and maybe the person really isn't trying to convert anyone at all, but rather they're explaining something in context with a conversation. If an innocent party is accused of proselytizing and gets a 50 pt. permenant infraction, that would hardly be fair. How would the term 'proselytizing' be defined in terms of actual practice? And if an unfair infraction were to occur, what steps can be taken to have the infraction removed?

-Stephanie (who doesn't proselytize, but does explain and express her beliefs very openly)

[Kaylara]

The proselytizing infraction thing concerns me. Different people think proselytizing means different things. Certainly, there is *obvious* proselytizing, but sometimes there's a fine line, and maybe the person really isn't trying to convert anyone at all, but rather they're explaining something in context with a conversation. If an innocent party is accused of proselytizing and gets a 50 pt. permenant infraction, that would hardly be fair. How would the term 'proselytizing' be defined in terms of actual practice? And if an unfair infraction were to occur, what steps can be taken to have the infraction removed?

-Stephanie (who doesn't proselytize, but does explain and express her beliefs very openly)

This is why the admins still have the power to give or not give an infraction.
Do you honestly think that we just go around banning people for having discussions?

[Fluffmeister]

I think that's what he meant

That's exactly what I meant. I too doubt that Mol bothers reading PMs, but the software permits it - after all, in theory you might have a terrorist posting here who sends a PM arranging something. Under those circumstances, you probably *do* want to be able to read those PMs subsequently, which is why vBulletin makes this available to admin, who may be deemed legally responsible for posts and PMs made on their board.

It's not a major part of vBulletin, but since PMs are held unencrypted and admin can look directly at the database, it's possible to do; in the raw state it's not trivial, but there is a hack available to make it trivial:

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185026
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35425

[Anubis]

I'm not going to turn around and give infractions every time I see friggin' or shit or bitch.Well.. you might not.. but I got the impression that Mol will...
Makes me afraid to type anything now... _inabox_

[Torsgaarden]

......you are being watched..
heh heh

Saaaaay.. Can like if I get banned from here, then is my wife automatically banned too? Like - say If I say "Friggin'" too much(Which I do in regular conversation - and I type the way I talk-) Then will people from my ISP ..(Er, I mean - "IP",,Yeah 'All Users from SRTdotCOM have been banned..' 8O ) get banned, too? That'd suck! If the rules become so Nazi-ised that Ju gets banned just because she is whom she is - Then I get rousted, too, cuz I live here? ...........or not?

[Zibblsnrt]

Well, we're figuring that out. Spamming and trolling will get you insta-banned and it will never be lifted. We're working on how long the other lengths will be. Do you have any suggestions?

I've got one, actually - don't carve ban dates in stone. Seriously, don't, period. Unless you're planning on making all bans permanent, the duration of them should be entirely based on context and whatever the mods decide. I mean, if you've got two people who rack up their fiddy points, for the same offenses, one over three months and the other over three days, you've got two pretty different cases, and they should be treated that way.

[Zibblsnrt]

i don't like this. Don't like this at all.

You don't like a rule against making private comments public without mutual consent? For heaven's sake, why?

[Sitalique]

So to just get things straight in my mind things are basically the same as always?

You only get an infraction if someone reports you to an admin and the admin sees that it's a violation of the rules. Only new thing is that instead of being warned in a PM it's sent to a forum for discussion?

So basically if I haven't been warned by an admin for anything so far, and I keep posting the way I have been, I have nothing to worry about with this new system.

Seems fine to me, and I do like the fact that you can tell what the admins consider bad behaviour.

Though I do think the word filter infraction should only be for cases where you intentionally spell out a word the software can't filter. Like say that 'dirt' is a filtered word (I know it's not, but it's just example) so normally it would be replaced with 'sand' but you get around that by spelling it like this: d i r t. The word is still there, but not filtered. In which case is a violation, correct? I think fricken, friggen, f---, effin or any of those other substitutes should be allowed.

[Torsgaarden]

Didn't your daddy ever teach you that anything you put out there (here) in Cyberspace ISN'T private? I understand that even my posts in Mwad are subject to scrutinization by anyone with the means, but posting of any of it here would be wrong in many ways.. I suppose I crossed the line with that one, but the line is getting closer, lower, and thinner.

I gotta go before I GOTTA go..:)

[Phoenix Blue]

The whole system won't solve anything, because the process of assigning the "infraction points" is as arbitrary as any other part of an admin's job.

The current system is imperfect, but this isn't going to fix it. An infraction system feels more like a solution in search of a problem. Therefore, I recommend zero points for everything and keeping the current process of deciding whom should be banned or not.

[Faeawyn]

So to just get things straight in my mind things are basically the same as always?

You only get an infraction if someone reports you to an admin and the admin sees that it's a violation of the rules. Only new thing is that instead of being warned in a PM it's sent to a forum for discussion?

So basically if I haven't been warned by an admin for anything so far, and I keep posting the way I have been, I have nothing to worry about with this new system.

Seems fine to me, and I do like the fact that you can tell what the admins consider bad behaviour.

Though I do think the word filter infraction should only be for cases where you intentionally spell out a word the software can't filter. Like say that 'dirt' is a filtered word (I know it's not, but it's just example) so normally it would be replaced with 'sand' but you get around that by spelling it like this: d i r t. The word is still there, but not filtered. In which case is a violation, correct? I think fricken, friggen, f---, effin or any of those other substitutes should be allowed.
Yes...THANK YOU GOD!! I think thats EXACTLY what Mol and Kay have been trying to say thru all 16 pages of this thread!!
Poor Mol....you try so hard to do whats right for us....you give us a voice to discuss our issues, and people still shred you for it. You have the patience of a saint.

[Sobeq]

Here's what I see. Everything is remaining basically the same, only the infractions are more public. This language filter and "persecution" has always been in place, just not public.

So basically, this is a large over-reaction to new awareness of an old circumstance. Perhaps we had all better take a step back and remember that. I was getting frustrated with the idea of censorship until someone -- I don't recall who, it could've been mol, could've been kaylara -- said that the filter was no different than it always had been.

I still don't understand what the official stance on the words such as "friggin'", "freakin'", etc. is. I know that I learned to use those words from one of my school teachers, as he censored himself for our benefit (he got frustrated with us often). My parents don't appreciate the word -- but then again, my parents don't appreciate crap, damn, or hell either, because we have a two year old in the house -- all of which were regularly said by teachers of mine. I also don't see freakin' as a substitute for the F-word. Oh, flippin' as well. I say flippin' alot. I don't see those as substitutes anymore so much as words which have taken on their own connotation -- the latter thanks to the "movie" (using the term loosely) Napoleon Dynamite. That movie was rated PG-13, if I'm not mistaken, and the word flippin' was frequently present, with the same force as gosh. (But that was an awful film, and we really oughtn't make decisions based on something that stank so badly).

True, swearing is vulgar, but it has its place. Sexuality is vulgar, and it has its place in society. Perhaps the place for heavy swearing (F word, GD, etc.) is not here. Then that's alright, I don't see why we can't all agree on that. If we keep light swearing sparse, I don't see why we can't all get along.

I don't, however, see why it is impossible to have a designated "Rant Thread" where people can swear and grumble to their hearts' content -- barring any insults, illegality, copyright infringement or publicization of private material. I have been at forums with PG ratings where there was a single thread designated for swearing and grumbling. There was a warning about language in the thread title, and a warning in the first post that language will be present in the thread.

I understand that the F-word will not be allowed, and GD will not be allowed. If excessive language will be an issue, put it in the proper place. End of story.

Summary: I still want to know what the official opinion of "friggin'", "flippin'" and "freakin'" are. I think it might be wise to have a rant thread where people can swear every three words, with fair warning. I also think that the reaction to this thread is nothing more than a mob mentality. A few people got upset over a misunderstanding and many people blindly sympathized and upset themselves, and it's now starting to snowball. If I'm wrong, I apologize to anyone I've offended.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Personally I really like this new system. Nothing is going to be different in what people are getting modded for - it's just that now you have a place to discuss it openly. That's a good idea in my mind. It allows the community to have a greater say in what is considered offensive and mod-worthy and I think it allows greater prevention in someone being moderated because someone just plain doesn't like them.

As for ideas about how the infractions system should work, I saw some suggestions that definitely need to be included that weren't listed in mol's original post. So here are my thoughts:

Too large a sig: 1 point 7 days
Publically discussing karma: 1 point 7 days (I find this to be a completely seperate issue from discussing PMs publically and should thus be treated seperately. Someone who says, gee thanks for that red-karma, that was real mature, shouldn't be treated to the same type of "punishment" as someone who discusses a private conversation.)
Insults, name-calling, and flame wars: 5 points 15 days (I think a slightly harder line should be taken on the flame wars thing, but I'm not sure how that should be handled. When I think of a flame-war, I'm thinking of two people just out and out attacking each other repeatedly in a thread which hasn't been reported until after it's completely taken over the thread)
Language filter: 2 points 7 days (I really don't think this should be made into a huge deal, unless it's something done on a regular basis and no attempt is made to watch one's own language. We all should be doing this in real life in my opinion, but it shouldn't be something that we should be excessively worried about either if it slips out occassionally. I personally use child-friendly curse words in my offline life and don't use any curse words here. I don't think it's an issue of the morality police, it's just being sensitive to other people. And not using G-damn isn't just a Christian issue as has been suggested. To me it's disrespectful to that religion, which last I checked was a big no-no. After all, you don't go around saying Hades-damn, do you? Why should it be acceptable to use one god's name to curse when you wouldn't do it with another?)
Proselytizing: 25 points that never expire (To further explain what I see the definition of proselytizing, since several people have asked what is meant by this, I mean actively posting with the intent to try to convert people. Posts explaining your religious beliefs, new or within the context of any active thread, or if asked is not proselytizing. Saying my god is better than yours and shall smite down any who do not follow is proselytizing.)
Violating fair use and copyright laws: 25 points that never expire (I actually thought about saying this should be an automatic ban, because as far as I'm aware, this is against federal law in just about every country. If you're violating the law, and possibly put MW at risk of being shut down you shouldn't get a second chance. However, some people just don't realize that they are in fact violating the law, so we should give them another chance and explain exactly why this isn't allowed)
Publically discussing PMs: 25 points that never expire (I find this to be completely reprehensible. The content of private communications with another member should never be up for discussion or topic of the rumor-mill. I've had this happen to me before, and very seriously considered leaving the site over it. Instead I decided to take a break, though my faith in the system is still very low and I rarely venture out into the forums anymore, and never use the PM system for anything I wish to keep private.)
Adult-content posting: 50 points that never expire
Trolling and Spam: 50 points that never expire

Also, I think Torsgaarden, had a very good question. Does a banning include the whole ISP, because from what I've seen it's fairly common for two different people in the same household to have accounts.

[Silver Crow2]

and both of them are...well not that great.

(1) Censorship is arbitrary. What offends one person may not offend the next. Moderation IS censorship - let us not argue about semantics, and admit what is - is.

(2) Censorship may be necessary - but whether it isn't necessary or is - the folks that own the site have a right to decide the content.

If I don't like it, I am free to post elsewhere :)

[Infinite Muse]

basically I am against the insta-ban policy
there are instances where a person might be acused of trolling, etc and not have been doing that at all (i know i've been accused of it and i didn't even know what trolling was (it was a long time ago))
basically I think that a person should have some recourse no matter how fowl their behavior and the insta-ban would prevent that which wouldn't be fair. let them defend their action in the infraction room before being summarily banned. it could have simply been a misunderstanding or whatnot

[Fluffmeister]

And not using G-damn isn't just a Christian issue as has been suggested. To me it's disrespectful to that religion

Why?

I was genuinely surprised to find out this term is so offensive in the US. Like I said, it's considered so mild in the UK that I don't know anyone who would consider it shocking, even in front of kids. It's in the same category as saying "Oh my God!" if you get some surprising news, and that's a saying so prevalent in the UK we even have an abbreviation for it: OMG! Even Christians use it here. Similarly, the word "bloody" is allegedly derived from "by our Lady" and is technically blasphemous, but it's so widespread that even the most conservative of politicians will use it on prime time television.

I'm not a Christian, but I know a few Christians; but I don't understand why the term is so offensive to US Christians (it doesn't seem to be to the UK Christians of my acquaintance). I'd genuinely like to know why - it's not directly abusing a diety, or saying anything unpleasant about the religion.



After all, you don't go around saying Hades-damn, do you?

No, but I wouldn't be remotely offended if you did choose to say that in my presence; and I don't know of any pagans who would. Would you be offended by it?

[DragonsChest]

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.

I'm still unsure how this will all work, but I decided that SSanf is right, and I should give mol and the admins a chance to make this work.

But I also decided I would not change anything about the way I post or roam in MW, as I don't think that my normal activities will trigger any mods or infractions. At least they haven't up today that I'm aware of.

So, off I go to roam the wilds of MW, and may the Force be with me. :ballonsmi

[Faeawyn]

Here is something that I think everyone needs to consider....You may not find certain terms or words offensive, but many others might....and since this is a forum for ALL....then we need to do our best not to offend others if we have the power. So I think Mol is just trying to make this a place where everyone can come and not suffer offense. If NOT being allowed to swear or insult is offensive to you, then I find that sad. Swear all you want in your real life...but keep it clean here. Is he really asking so much??

[GEBS]

I don't understand why the term is so offensive to US Christians (it doesn't seem to be to the UK Christians of my acquaintance). I'd genuinely like to know why - it's not directly abusing a diety, or saying anything unpleasant about the religion.


I was taught that it is very offensive to say that. I was brought up Catholic and I can remember a full day's discussion in class on that word. It was a horrible thing to say. It was showing disrespect to God to use his name in a frivolous way. "God" was to be used only in a respectful manner. With the way I was taught using that word is violating one of God's commandments. While it may not be directly abusing the Deity it is at the very least disrespecting the teachings of Catholicism as I learned it.

I very rarely say that word even though I no longer consider myself Catholic. I guess its importance was so instilled in me that I can't bring myself to use it.

[Deranged Hermit]

Well I've skimmed through the threads in the Infractions sub-forum. I feel kinda sick to my stomach. It would seem that we are reverting to a system where we'd best put on our happy faces and keep any real thoughts and opinions to ourselves.
As for karma, if that's the way the infractions are gonna work, perhaps it would be best to do away with the karma system completely.
I think this is all just so sad.
I thought we were adults here, but since a few of us aren't, I guess it's balloons and cotton candy from now on.
Better change the overall theme right quick, by the way.
I'm sure there are more than a few people who feel disturbed, offended, and otherwise displeased by it.

[Anubis]

Well I've skimmed through the threads in the Infractions sub-forum. I feel kinda sick to my stomach. It would seem that we are reverting to a system where we'd best put on our happy faces and keep any real thoughts and opinions to ourselves.
As for karma, if that's the way the infractions are gonna work, perhaps it would be best to do away with the karma system completely.
I think this is all just so sad.
I thought we were adults here, but since a few of us aren't, I guess it's balloons and cotton candy from now on.
Better change the overall theme right quick, by the way.
I'm sure there are more than a few people who feel disturbed, offended, and otherwise displeased by it.

yeah.. i need to go buy pink fluffy slippers now and invest in a box of sugar... seems anything I post can be offensive to someone.. so maybe I should just hide in the grovewood and not post anywhere.. wouldn't want to risk upsetting or offending anyone by a slip of the keyboard _inabox_

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Yes, actually I would be offended by it, even though I personally don't worship Hades or the Christian God. I don't see the point in cursing in the name of a god, any god, which is what both these terms to do. Why can't a person just leave gods out of it entirely? After all saying damn or damnit isn't what's at issue here, it's saying that something has been damned in the name of God. Why even use G-damn if you're not Christian? Why bother cursing something in the name of a deity that you either don't worship or don't believe in? Same as blessing someone in the name of a god you don't worship or believe in? Do you say God bless you when someone sneezes? I know that I don't, as I don't see the point in it, seeing as I don't worship that deity and thus don't need to include them in any blessings (or cursings/damnings) I may give.

And actually I find it even more offensive when Christians use the phrase, as it goes against the Ten Commandments, which specifically state "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name" (Exodus 20:7, New Revised Standard Edition). It's disrespectful to the basic tenants of their religion. If you can't obey the basic tenants of your religion, why are you claiming to be a member of it? Because of this very fact for anyone to use it, in my opinion, whether of that religion or not, is disrespect and thus goes against MW's respect rule.

In the US saying "Oh My God" or OMG is also very common, I still find it disrespectful, and personally don't say it. I tend more towards Oh my or Oh my goodness.


Why?

I was genuinely surprised to find out this term is so offensive in the US. Like I said, it's considered so mild in the UK that I don't know anyone who would consider it shocking, even in front of kids. It's in the same category as saying "Oh my God!" if you get some surprising news, and that's a saying so prevalent in the UK we even have an abbreviation for it: OMG! Even Christians use it here. Similarly, the word "bloody" is allegedly derived from "by our Lady" and is technically blasphemous, but it's so widespread that even the most conservative of politicians will use it on prime time television.

I'm not a Christian, but I know a few Christians; but I don't understand why the term is so offensive to US Christians (it doesn't seem to be to the UK Christians of my acquaintance). I'd genuinely like to know why - it's not directly abusing a diety, or saying anything unpleasant about the religion.




No, but I wouldn't be remotely offended if you did choose to say that in my presence; and I don't know of any Peoples who would. Would you be offended by it?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Yes, but just being accused of trolling doesn't mean you will be banned. The mods will still consider it before you are banned. It's not a system issue where some web-bot decides that you are trolling. A mod would review the issue, decide if it's trolling and give you an infraction if they decide it is. Because our limit would be at 50, you would then be banned by the system.

I think this is where everyone is getting confused. They're forgetting that the mods are still doing the same job they were doing before. It's just that there is an actual system in place to determine how many infractions are needed for a banning. Instead of them making an "arbitrary" system.


basically I am against the insta-ban policy
there are instances where a person might be acused of trolling, etc and not have been doing that at all (i know i've been accused of it and i didn't even know what trolling was (it was a long time ago))
basically I think that a person should have some recourse no matter how fowl their behavior and the insta-ban would prevent that which wouldn't be fair. let them defend their action in the infraction room before being summarily banned. it could have simply been a misunderstanding or whatnot

[Anubis]

In the US saying "Oh My God" or OMG is also very common, I still find it disrespectful, and personally don't say it. I tend more towards Oh my or Oh my goodness.
so if I were to type "Gods, what is wrong with these people?" you would find that offensive?.. I'm sure someone would... yeah.. time for me to shut the heck up.. or is "heck" offensive too?.. grrr.. *walks on eggshells back to the box and hides* _inabox_

[SSanf]

Personally I really like this new system. Nothing is going to be different in what people are getting modded for - it's just that now you have a place to discuss it openly. That's a good idea in my mind. It allows the community to have a greater say in what is considered offensive and mod-worthy and I think it allows greater prevention in someone being moderated because someone just plain doesn't like them. I agree.

[SSanf]

basically I think that a person should have some recourse no matter how fowl their behavior and the insta-ban would prevent that which wouldn't be fair.There is recourse. They can get in touch with Mol by regular e-mail and try to work it out.

[SSanf]

not for very long... else there'll be a population decrease in no time. I only say this because the infractions so far have been for some pretty petty stuff... though that's probably just the breaking-in period... though some MWers will rack up a banning very quickly if the standards remain as they are.

The standards have in no way changed. The only difference is that now you can know exactly where you stand and also have an appeal process.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I don't understand why it's such a big deal for people to try and not be offensive. It's long been stated here that G-Damn was not allowed. Why is everyone getting so worked up over the application of a rule that has long existed?

Yes I find using a deity's name frivolously offensive. I realize that I'm not in the majority opinion here, but does that mean people should be less sensitive to what offends people? I'm not saying that we should go so far as the BBC which is going to edit old Tom and Jerry cartoons which "glamorize" smoking, but that we should be more aware of what we say around others. I'm always careful of what I say in real life, why should I treat the internet any differently?

I'm also unlikely to report someone for saying God or using another dieties name frivolously because I realize that even though it's offensive to me, its not offensive to most people.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Is there a way that you can actually see how many infraction points you have? Just like you can see how many karma points you have? I don't think it should be public, but having it available in your User CP would be a great idea I think.

[CheshireEyes]

This whole problem with people getting offended over WORDS is one of the main reasons there are terrorists in the world. I think we should be trying to have each other get along rather than catering to the conservative views of others and is a means of intolerance in itself. Intolerance for us becoming one community where we respect each others views and words even though we may not agree with them.

This whole thing with the filter changing the F-word to hug, uh, you are still saying the SAME THING! All that is being done is making the word "hug" an offensive term.

The other thing is what if you're having a discussion with a group of friends (and I've made alot here on MW) and you call them an idiot or an ass? All those involved in the discussion generally are familiar to one another and know you are joking and are not serious. I think the only person who can RIGHTLY be offended is the person to whom you are referring. Anyone else, not familiar with the relationship and the friendship would have no idea of the CONTEXT really has NO IDEA what that those words may refer to. For instance, if I said, "Azul you're bein' an ass! LOL". I don't think Azul would be offended and would know I would just be kidding. But if he was and reported me then I can understand getting penalized. Other than that, it would be between the two of us. Because in essence, even though this is a public forum, alot of times there are just discussions by a few people.

Which brings me to my next point. What about people who are specifically reporting just to cause trouble for a particular member? Mol and Xentor probably know what I'm talking about, but they can PM me for specifics of what had transpired a few months back.

I think anyone who is familiar with me on the forums knows I"m a kind of happy go lucky type of guy and I mean no insult to anyone. But someone coming in and casually reading my posts may not see that. I hope when the mods read what I'm getting reported for, and I probably will be, they will look at it in CONTEXT. Blanket law enforcement leads to oppression. And I hope I'll still be around for years to come, but frankly, I think I'll be booted (as several others in this thread have said as well.)

[GEBS]

Is there a way that you can actually see how many infraction points you have? Just like you can see how many karma points you have? I don't think it should be public, but having it available in your User CP would be a great idea I think.
They do show up in your User CP along with the expiration date.

[Theres]

unfortunately it seems to be the way of the world now, this 'lowest common denominator' thinking... find the stupidest person in the land and hold everyone else down to that standard.

only in this case read 'sensitive' for stupid.

[Lunacie]

Will all bans be permanent? Or will there still be temporary-bans?

I was once temp-banned for three days for much less than any of the insta-bans listed.

[SSanf]

frankly, I think I'll be booted (as several others in this thread have said as well.)I think your concerns are unfounded. If you weren't likely to get booted before, you aren't likely to be booted, now.

Getting infractions is NOT AUTOMATED!!!

Infractions will be given the same as warnings were before, no more and no less. If you got few warnings before, you will get few infractions. If you got a lot of warnings, you were probably on your way out, anyway. That is what the warnings you got were warning you about.

[mol]

That's exactly what I meant. I too doubt that Mol bothers reading PMs, but the software permits it

The software absolutely does not allow ANYONE to read pm's. There is a hack for that, but I refuse to install it.

[CheshireEyes]

I think your concerns are unfounded. If you weren't likely to get booted before, you aren't likely to be booted, now.

Getting infractions is NOT AUTOMATED!!!

Infractions will be given the same as warnings were before, no more and no less.

I never said they were automated. But when you expand rules and more clearly define them, it can be alot more abused than people give them credit for.

And unfounded?! People have been STARTING WARS for thousands and millions of years just based on WORDS.

Didn't you ever hear the old rhyme, "Sticks and stones make break my bones, but words will never hurt me"?

[MockingbirdOxygen]

_inabox_ this infraction system looks painful... I do not think it will be long before I'm banned (after checking out what people were getting infractions for)

me too

I'm actually starting to realize what my signs were about :2G:
This is all too secret police for me

and um
I gave someone a "Penis piñata" out of the Mystic Wicks vending machine. Is that a violation? It is a joke - wordplay on a body part, not actually a sexual thing- and I know they used the word penis in E.T., which I believe was PG-13, when they called him -oops maybe I'd better not say it here, but they used that P word and breath...

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I disagree entirely. I just think it's common respect to actually not say things that you know are offensive to others and in this case entire religions. Comparing someone who finds it offensive to blatantly disrepect a religion by disrespecting one of it's basic tenants to someone is who you think isn't as intelligent as you is going just a tad bit overboard, don't you think?

Telling you to be careful of what you say around others isn't the thought police people, is just asking you to treat other's with respect. Mol wouldn't have banned it after all if he didn't find it sufficiently disrespectful to put it on a banned list. There are obviously enough people out there offended by this term that it warrants being banned, or it wouldn't have been.


unfortunately it seems to be the way of the world now, this 'lowest common denominator' thinking... find the stupidest person in the land and hold everyone else down to that standard.

only in this case read 'sensitive' for stupid.

[SwordsFlameSong]

I don't think any concern is frivilous. What we have here is a new way of working with the old. More importantly, we are also experiencing an open discussion on infractions and how this impacts the community as a whole.

This communication is very important to the future success of the system being put into place.

MW is a community where all are equal. This discussion was invited. Input was requested. I think it is very important that Mol and the other Admins know what people's concerns are. If concerns are unknown there is no way for them to proactively provide the clarification they need to share in order to transition the process as smoothly as possible.

[CheshireEyes]

I disagree entirely. I just think it's common respect to actually not say things that you know are offensive to others and in this case entire religions. Comparing someone who finds it offensive to blatantly disrepect a religion by disrespecting one of it's basic tenants to someone is who you think isn't as intelligent as you is going just a tad bit overboard, don't you think?

Telling you to be careful of what you say around others isn't the thought police people, is just asking you to treat other's with respect. Mol wouldn't have banned it after all if he didn't find it sufficiently disrespectful to put it on a banned list. There are obviously enough people out there offended by this term that it warrants being banned, or it wouldn't have been.

Respect is subjective.

[Kaylara]

So to just get things straight in my mind things are basically the same as always?

You only get an infraction if someone reports you to an admin and the admin sees that it's a violation of the rules. Only new thing is that instead of being warned in a PM it's sent to a forum for discussion?

So basically if I haven't been warned by an admin for anything so far, and I keep posting the way I have been, I have nothing to worry about with this new system.

Seems fine to me, and I do like the fact that you can tell what the admins consider bad behaviour.

Though I do think the word filter infraction should only be for cases where you intentionally spell out a word the software can't filter. Like say that 'dirt' is a filtered word (I know it's not, but it's just example) so normally it would be replaced with 'sand' but you get around that by spelling it like this: d i r t. The word is still there, but not filtered. In which case is a violation, correct? I think fricken, friggen, f---, effin or any of those other substitutes should be allowed.


Exactly.

[Kaylara]

Here's what I see. Everything is remaining basically the same, only the infractions are more public. This language filter and "persecution" has always been in place, just not public.

So basically, this is a large over-reaction to new awareness of an old circumstance. Perhaps we had all better take a step back and remember that. I was getting frustrated with the idea of censorship until someone -- I don't recall who, it could've been mol, could've been kaylara -- said that the filter was no different than it always had been.

I still don't understand what the official stance on the words such as "friggin'", "freakin'", etc. is. I know that I learned to use those words from one of my school teachers, as he censored himself for our benefit (he got frustrated with us often). My parents don't appreciate the word -- but then again, my parents don't appreciate crap, damn, or hell either, because we have a two year old in the house -- all of which were regularly said by teachers of mine. I also don't see freakin' as a substitute for the F-word. Oh, flippin' as well. I say flippin' alot. I don't see those as substitutes anymore so much as words which have taken on their own connotation -- the latter thanks to the "movie" (using the term loosely) Napoleon Dynamite. That movie was rated PG-13, if I'm not mistaken, and the word flippin' was frequently present, with the same force as gosh. (But that was an awful film, and we really oughtn't make decisions based on something that stank so badly).

True, swearing is vulgar, but it has its place. Sexuality is vulgar, and it has its place in society. Perhaps the place for heavy swearing (F word, GD, etc.) is not here. Then that's alright, I don't see why we can't all agree on that. If we keep light swearing sparse, I don't see why we can't all get along.

I don't, however, see why it is impossible to have a designated "Rant Thread" where people can swear and grumble to their hearts' content -- barring any insults, illegality, copyright infringement or publicization of private material. I have been at forums with PG ratings where there was a single thread designated for swearing and grumbling. There was a warning about language in the thread title, and a warning in the first post that language will be present in the thread.

I understand that the F-word will not be allowed, and GD will not be allowed. If excessive language will be an issue, put it in the proper place. End of story.

Summary: I still want to know what the official opinion of "friggin'", "flippin'" and "freakin'" are. I think it might be wise to have a rant thread where people can swear every three words, with fair warning. I also think that the reaction to this thread is nothing more than a mob mentality. A few people got upset over a misunderstanding and many people blindly sympathized and upset themselves, and it's now starting to snowball. If I'm wrong, I apologize to anyone I've offended.

We have the 'Primal scream of rants' thread if you want to rant... Friggin', flippin' and freakin' are fine, just don't go around our language filter or make it too bad.

[Lunacie]

Will all bans be permanent? Or will there still be temporary-bans?

I was once temp-banned for three days for much less than any of the insta-bans listed.

Um... do I have to report my own post to get an answer from an admin?

[CheshireEyes]

Um... do I have to report my own post to get an answer from an admin?

I think their only on like page 10 or somethin'.

[Kaylara]

Also, I think Torsgaarden, had a very good question. Does a banning include the whole ISP, because from what I've seen it's fairly common for two different people in the same household to have accounts.

No, only the user name that is banned, gets banned. Unless you try to get around the ban, in which case we may ban your IP address, and that will make anyone else in your household banned as well.

[Zibblsnrt]

And unfounded?! People have been STARTING WARS for thousands and millions of years just based on WORDS.

And? Last I checked, relatively few people have died as a result of using this forum.


Didn't you ever hear the old rhyme, "Sticks and stones make break my bones, but words will never hurt me"?

Ahh, that old falsehood.

[MockingbirdOxygen]

If you have to be cautious about what you say to people... I understand the goal of respect behind it...but for me if there is something on my mind, I think it's more disrespectful to not say it than it is to be untrue to my thoughts. I am not doing as I wilt. Or wouldt. How people say things to one another reveals their true character; it's part of their essence.

I am sorry if I'm coming off as a "rebel" right now, and I don't know why this is hitting me this way this morning, but I'm just sick of the politically correct crap in real life. The schools, the status quo, the "fitting in" thing, so maybe my opinions toward that are being transferred to this system right now, and if so, I apologize.

The F word. A harmless little four letter word. I have so badly wanted to tell the school to get over it when my son got in trouble for typing it on the computer once... they acted like he killed somebody...but - it's just a word. On the one hand, I understand why at that age, they need to keep control over everything.

Ah, that's it, that's what's bothering me. It's a control issue again. I get that alot. Thanks for the reminder
_wedgie_

I say, bring on the anarchy! :megaphone
The universe will sort itself out.

[mol]

I'm not saying that we (the general MW population) shouldn't be alowed to respond to the moderations, because I think that's a great idea.
I just think it should be the individuals choice on whether or not their moderation is put out for discussion.

I hope they build this into the new version of VB...because I think it is a great idea. If I have the time *I* will try to build a hack to allow folks to make this an option in their usercp.


From what I understand, you can be reported for WTF Just like you can be reported for F---- or friggin, fricked and so on. And thus you can get an infraction. No F substitutes.
Someone would just have to report you.

And no one ever does. This is what I am talking about folks:

**** - getting around the censor by bolding or some other means which has ALWAYS been in place

**** - doesnt get around the censor


Oh come on.

You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand.

I see where this is all going, and I clearly need to leave before I eventually get kicked off. I hate "hugging" censorship, and if you're going to start handing out these little scraps of toilet paper over words like "frigging" or "cracker" then my fate is sealed already.

I have just relinquished my MW webspace, and will finish out my presence here once a couple of loose threads are tied up.

I will close by pointing out that while I am clearly positioned to get infractioned out of existence under this absurd new scheme, no one has ever complained to me about my language in the past, even though I have very definitely taken steps to circumvent the Playskool filter, and, I suppose, in so doing, to flip you the middle finger; much as I am doing right now. I conclude, therefore, that if anyone was offended, of injured parties, or any moderators, nobody was sufficiently offended to take any action, or make any complaint in public or in private..)

I love that movie. Silvan, nothing has changed. This has always been in ****ing place.


how long does a bannin' last?

When the points drop off you are automatically unbanned. The admins just dont have to decide a length now.


not for very long... else there'll be a population decrease in no time. I only say this because the infractions so far have been for some pretty petty stuff... though that's probably just the breaking-in period... though some MWers will rack up a banning very quickly if the standards remain as they are.

Right. Nothing has changed. The Rule has not changed. We just need labels for the infractions that go along with our respect rule.


Mods can't, admin can. This doesn't mean to say that admin *do* read them, just that they *can* read them. This is a feature of the vBulletin software, on which MW runs. Sometimes this is necessary for legal reasons.

False. That's a hack. It is not installed on this board. And yes, you can do it via the database. I consider that a violation of privacy and would never do it unless under sire circumstances.


The proselytizing infraction thing concerns me. Different people think proselytizing means different things. Certainly, there is *obvious* proselytizing, but sometimes there's a fine line, and maybe the person really isn't trying to convert anyone at all, but rather they're explaining something in context with a conversation. If an innocent party is accused of proselytizing and gets a 50 pt. permenant infraction, that would hardly be fair. How would the term 'proselytizing' be defined in terms of actual practice? And if an unfair infraction were to occur, what steps can be taken to have the infraction removed?

-Stephanie (who doesn't proselytize, but does explain and express her beliefs very openly)

Steph, this has always been our rule. If we have someone come in and say: "You are all going to hell...you need to repent!"...then they are banned for prosleytyzing. You know this. Everyone does. Nothing is changing.


Well.. you might not.. but I got the impression that Mol will...
Makes me afraid to type anything now... _inabox_

Oh, I am not. And if people are being catty and reporting people for saying fricken this or fricken that I am not going to do a thing. It's still at the admins discretion. Have you ever been modded for it before? It not, then you probably will never be modded for it ever.


So to just get things straight in my mind things are basically the same as always?

You only get an infraction if someone reports you to an admin and the admin sees that it's a violation of the rules. Only new thing is that instead of being warned in a PM it's sent to a forum for discussion?

So basically if I haven't been warned by an admin for anything so far, and I keep posting the way I have been, I have nothing to worry about with this new system.

Seems fine to me, and I do like the fact that you can tell what the admins consider bad behaviour.

Though I do think the word filter infraction should only be for cases where you intentionally spell out a word the software can't filter. Like say that 'dirt' is a filtered word (I know it's not, but it's just example) so normally it would be replaced with 'sand' but you get around that by spelling it like this: d i r t. The word is still there, but not filtered. In which case is a violation, correct? I think fricken, friggen, f---, effin or any of those other substitutes should be allowed.

The filter is staying the same. Everything really is. We just wanted feedback on time lengths, etc from the community. Backfired on me.


The whole system won't solve anything, because the process of assigning the "infraction points" is as arbitrary as any other part of an admin's job.

The current system is imperfect, but this isn't going to fix it. An infraction system feels more like a solution in search of a problem. Therefore, I recommend zero points for everything and keeping the current process of deciding whom should be banned or not.

Not trying to fix anything. It isn't broken. Just trying to make use of a feature that I think is an improvement. Especially when it comes to giving a person a voice to say: "Why did I get this infraction?" Hopefully it will help folks.


Yes...THANK YOU GOD!! I think thats EXACTLY what Mol and Kay have been trying to say thru all 16 pages of this thread!!
Poor Mol....you try so hard to do whats right for us....you give us a voice to discuss our issues, and people still shred you for it. You have the patience of a saint.

=]


Here's what I see. Everything is remaining basically the same, only the infractions are more public. This language filter and "persecution" has always been in place, just not public.

So basically, this is a large over-reaction to new awareness of an old circumstance. Perhaps we had all better take a step back and remember that. I was getting frustrated with the idea of censorship until someone -- I don't recall who, it could've been mol, could've been kaylara -- said that the filter was no different than it always had been.

I still don't understand what the official stance on the words such as "friggin'", "freakin'", etc. is. I know that I learned to use those words from one of my school teachers, as he censored himself for our benefit (he got frustrated with us often).

If you have never gotten modded for it before...probably never will. =] That's the stance. Nothing is changing except for what I outlined in my first post.


There is recourse. They can get in touch with Mol by regular e-mail and try to work it out.

Yup. I am always availiable.


The standards have in no way changed. The only difference is that now you can know exactly where you stand and also have an appeal process.

Exactly.


Will all bans be permanent? Or will there still be temporary-bans?

I was once temp-banned for three days for much less than any of the insta-bans listed.

Bans are lifted when the points drop off.


I think your concerns are unfounded. If you weren't likely to get booted before, you aren't likely to be booted, now.

Getting infractions is NOT AUTOMATED!!!

Infractions will be given the same as warnings were before, no more and no less. If you got few warnings before, you will get few infractions. If you got a lot of warnings, you were probably on your way out, anyway. That is what the warnings you got were warning you about.

Nothing is automated except that the point system makes it to where the admin do not have to come up with a ban length, etc. It just goes by the points and how long it take for each one to drop off.

[Kaylara]

basically I am against the insta-ban policy
there are instances where a person might be acused of trolling, etc and not have been doing that at all (i know i've been accused of it and i didn't even know what trolling was (it was a long time ago))
basically I think that a person should have some recourse no matter how fowl their behavior and the insta-ban would prevent that which wouldn't be fair. let them defend their action in the infraction room before being summarily banned. it could have simply been a misunderstanding or whatnot

If someone is banned for trolling, they get an email from an admin and they have a chance to discuss it with an admin. To be honest though, if someone is trolling it's usually obvious enough, and I doubt that we've had many mistakes when banning people as trolls.

[CheshireEyes]

And? Last I checked, relatively few people have died as a result of using this forum.
How do you know?



Ahh, that old falsehood.

Only to some people.

[mol]

Basically:

The respect rule is still in effect. If you all do not feel we are making progress in this thread then I can put up a poll and feel out the community that way? In regards to publicly displaying the infraction threads, etc and allowing folks to speak publicly about their moderations.

Give me a yay or nay.

[Kaylara]

Well I've skimmed through the threads in the Infractions sub-forum. I feel kinda sick to my stomach. It would seem that we are reverting to a system where we'd best put on our happy faces and keep any real thoughts and opinions to ourselves.
As for karma, if that's the way the infractions are gonna work, perhaps it would be best to do away with the karma system completely.
I think this is all just so sad.
I thought we were adults here, but since a few of us aren't, I guess it's balloons and cotton candy from now on.
Better change the overall theme right quick, by the way.
I'm sure there are more than a few people who feel disturbed, offended, and otherwise displeased by it.

Dude, the only thing that is changing is your ability to see and discuss what the admins are doing as far as moderations go. It's not the end of the world! Your MW experience will probably not change in the least!

[Kaylara]

so if I were to type "Gods, what is wrong with these people?" you would find that offensive?.. I'm sure someone would... yeah.. time for me to shut the heck up.. or is "heck" offensive too?.. grrr.. *walks on eggshells back to the box and hides* _inabox_

No, Evil Ducky God. Post as you have been, don't walk on eggshells. And please see what I just posted!

[Zibblsnrt]

Oh, I am not. And if people are being catty and reporting people for saying fricken this or fricken that I am not going to do a thing. It's still at the admins discretion. Have you ever been modded for it before? It not, then you probably will never be modded for it ever.

Do you guys have much of a problem with obviously-frivolous reporting?

Not instances of someone reporting a lot of probably harmless gray areas, but something like people reporting every single post someone makes in the hopes of landing some hits, complaints about "double-teaming," confusing any disagreement at all with a flame, etc?

[Zibblsnrt]

Basically:

The respect rule is still in effect. If you all do not feel we are making progress in this thread then I can put up a poll and feel out the community that way? In regards to publicly displaying the infraction threads, etc and allowing folks to speak publicly about their moderations.

Give me a yay or nay.

As far as point values, what should and should not get nailed and how badly, etc? Nay; that's too fiddly to reduce to a poll.

On the question of placing the infractions threads in public, particularly with other users being able to participate in them? Yea.

Another more technical question - short of mass PMing, is there a way to contact The Mods as a collective?

[Gwenhwyfar]

This whole problem with people getting offended over WORDS is one of the main reasons there are terrorists in the world. I think we should be trying to have each other get along rather than catering to the conservative views of others and is a means of intolerance in itself. Intolerance for us becoming one community where we respect each others views and words even though we may not agree with them.

This whole thing with the filter changing the F-word to hug, uh, you are still saying the SAME THING! All that is being done is making the word "hug" an offensive term.

The other thing is what if you're having a discussion with a group of friends (and I've made alot here on MW) and you call them an idiot or an ass? All those involved in the discussion generally are familiar to one another and know you are joking and are not serious. I think the only person who can RIGHTLY be offended is the person to whom you are referring. Anyone else, not familiar with the relationship and the friendship would have no idea of the CONTEXT really has NO IDEA what that those words may refer to. For instance, if I said, "Azul you're bein' an ass! LOL". I don't think Azul would be offended and would know I would just be kidding. But if he was and reported me then I can understand getting penalized. Other than that, it would be between the two of us. Because in essence, even though this is a public forum, alot of times there are just discussions by a few people.

Which brings me to my next point. What about people who are specifically reporting just to cause trouble for a particular member? Mol and Xentor probably know what I'm talking about, but they can PM me for specifics of what had transpired a few months back.

I think anyone who is familiar with me on the forums knows I"m a kind of happy go lucky type of guy and I mean no insult to anyone. But someone coming in and casually reading my posts may not see that. I hope when the mods read what I'm getting reported for, and I probably will be, they will look at it in CONTEXT. Blanket law enforcement leads to oppression. And I hope I'll still be around for years to come, but frankly, I think I'll be booted (as several others in this thread have said as well.)


Good post!

[Kaylara]

Um... do I have to report my own post to get an answer from an admin?

No, but I'm working through the posts that I missed before.

I was asking about temp bans the other day as well. So, if you think there should be short temp bans, what would you give them for and how long would the be for?

[Lunacie]

The filter is staying the same. Everything really is. We just wanted feedback on time lengths, etc from the community. Backfired on me.


Not really, it just takes time for us to wrap our minds around the change.

Some of this is clear to all of us,
all of this is clear to some of us,
but not all of this is clear to all of us... yet.
(to paraphrase Abe Lincoln)





Bans are lifted when the points drop off.



Nothing is automated except that the point system makes it to where the admin do not have to come up with a ban length, etc. It just goes by the points and how long it take for each one to drop off.

Thanks, that should have been clear to me but there has been so much discussion about all this that stuff kinda got confuzzled inside my brain.

I like that if the situation I found myself in when I got temp-banned were to happen again under the new infraction points system, I woudn't be banned - unless the points put me over the limit of 50 points.

[SwordsFlameSong]

I think the person who got the infraction should be given the choice as to whether or not it is discussed in public.

The reason being - open discussion if okayed by the involved party may help stem rumors of bias and so on and so forth.

[Lunacie]

No, but I'm working through the posts that I missed before.

I was asking about temp bans the other day as well. So, if you think there should be short temp bans, what would you give them for and how long would the be for?

Yeah, I thought my post got missed, that's why I reposted it. Thanks for responding.

I do think there should still be temp bans and permanent bans. Now that I went back and reread Mol's OP I can see how that's covered. (I read that message last night and didn't reread it this morning so I kinda forgot what I had read. http://mysticwicks.com/images/icons/icon11.gif )

[CheshireEyes]

Do you guys have much of a problem with obviously-frivolous reporting?

Not instances of someone reporting a lot of probably harmless gray areas, but something like people reporting every single post someone makes in the hopes of landing some hits, complaints about "double-teaming," confusing any disagreement at all with a flame, etc?

I asked this as well.

[Deranged Hermit]

Do you guys have much of a problem with obviously-frivolous reporting?

Not instances of someone reporting a lot of probably harmless gray areas, but something like people reporting every single post someone makes in the hopes of landing some hits, complaints about "double-teaming," confusing any disagreement at all with a flame, etc?

excuse me for the interruption...
do people actually do that? I find that absurdly amusing. (or is that amusingly absurd?) :hahugh:
I can't believe they waste their time on it.
They clearly don't have dial-up. :nuhuh:

[Brightshores]

Personally, I largely agree with Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill's point system that she posted about four pages ago.

Except, I think the plagiarism thing should expire after about six months or so - people can learn their lessons, and 25 points is a lot to have on one's account forever.

As far as time-limits for bans, as Mol asked about several pages ago... perhaps for lesser banning offenses, it should drop off at a rate of 1 point per week, or 5 points per month or something like that?

As for me, I'm just going to continue to do what I've been doing.. I haven't been told I'm doing anything wrong, and don't think I have been, so I'm just not going to spend time worrying about this new system as it relates to whatever I'm posting. (Then again, profanity generally doesn't offend me at all, so I don't spend time thinking about it anyway. :hahugh: )

My $2.95. (Inflation, you know.)

[Kaylara]

Do you guys have much of a problem with obviously-frivolous reporting?

Not instances of someone reporting a lot of probably harmless gray areas, but something like people reporting every single post someone makes in the hopes of landing some hits, complaints about "double-teaming," confusing any disagreement at all with a flame, etc?

Occassionally, but we usually contact the people involved when that happens and try to stop it.

[Gwenhwyfar]

me too

I'm actually starting to realize what my signs were about :2G:
This is all too secret police for me

and um
I gave someone a "Penis piñata" out of the Mystic Wicks vending machine. Is that a violation? It is a joke - wordplay on a body part, not actually a sexual thing- and I know they used the word penis in E.T., which I believe was PG-13, when they called him -oops maybe I'd better not say it here, but they used that P word and breath...

I dont know about the vending machine but your title "motherfrogger" kinda reminds me of mother f***er, so you might want to remove that. :lol: Wouldnt want to offend all the minors around here.

[Faeawyn]

Basically:

The respect rule is still in effect. If you all do not feel we are making progress in this thread then I can put up a poll and feel out the community that way? In regards to publicly displaying the infraction threads, etc and allowing folks to speak publicly about their moderations.

Give me a yay or nay.

Yay :thumbsup:

[Kaylara]

As far as point values, what should and should not get nailed and how badly, etc? Nay; that's too fiddly to reduce to a poll.

On the question of placing the infractions threads in public, particularly with other users being able to participate in them? Yea.

Another more technical question - short of mass PMing, is there a way to contact The Mods as a collective?

Sure, Pm one and ask that they all discuss it.

[Anubis]

We have the 'Primal scream of rants' thread if you want to rant... Friggin', flippin' and freakin' are fine, just don't go around our language filter or make it too bad.

Not according to what Mol posted last night... maybe you guys should get together and decide which it is.. cause I'm more confused now than before

[Kaylara]

I think the person who got the infraction should be given the choice as to whether or not it is discussed in public.

The reason being - open discussion if okayed by the involved party may help stem rumors of bias and so on and so forth.

Well, we're still discussing how this should go. But either they'll all be public or they'll all be private. You do have the option of reading them or not too.

[Kaylara]

Not according to what Mol posted last night... maybe you guys should get together and decide which it is.. cause I'm more confused now than before

On the last page or three, mol posted a big long post on exactly what he meant...

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2769047&postcount=193

[SSanf]

Basically:

The respect rule is still in effect. If you all do not feel we are making progress in this thread then I can put up a poll and feel out the community that way? In regards to publicly displaying the infraction threads, etc and allowing folks to speak publicly about their moderations.

Give me a yay or nay.
Keep it public. It was well thought out and there was good reason for you to do this in the first place.

I wouldn't second guess it until it has run for, at least, a couple of months. Then, a poll to get feed back might not be a bad idea.

Right now, people are imagining all kinds of problems that may not ever be a problem. I think they need to see it all in action before deciding.

[CheshireEyes]

Is there gonna be an anti-Infration Room where we can picket against particular infractions given and early reinstatement of the innocent?:hahugh:

[Kaylara]

Well, we're not totally surprised... This has happened every time we've ever changed anything here.

[Kaylara]

Is there gonna be an anti-Infration Room where we can picket against particular infractions given and early reinstatement of the innocent?:hahugh:

You can argue your case in the infraction room.:)

[Darakash]

I have a few questions about the above Infraction...

First of all, as long as it is not directed at a person on MW, how is this a violation of the One rule?

Secondly, where do y'all draw the line? I mean for instance, if we are talking about a child molestor or a perpetuator of some other heinous crime and I say "They ought to string him up by his genitalia..." That statement is certainly advocating violence, but it is hardly a violation of the respect rule and it is certainly not worse than "pg-13" in terms of language. It would of course be different if I supplied a photo of the action described in my statement or some such.

I can certainly understand that we don't want people linking to violent/hate/R-rated sites or posting pictures that depict the same; however, to me, expressing an opinion such as the one above is not much different than if I were to say: "they ought to institute the death penalty for sex offenders." I certainly do not think any mod would consider that statement an infraction, would they? I guess that is what has me confused, are we really just getting down to a matter of semantics or the content behind the words??

[Zibblsnrt]

excuse me for the interruption...
do people actually do that? I find that absurdly amusing. (or is that amusingly absurd?) :hahugh:
I can't believe they waste their time on it.
They clearly don't have dial-up.

I'm obviously not in a position to know if it's the case here. I've run some fairly high-traffic mailing lists in the past and have runins with the attitude, especially when one person simply decides not to tolerate the other's existence, but refuses to killfile or ignore out of spite or "principle."

It's the Internet; any large enough community's going to attract the Four Horsemen of the Dramacalypse eventually, and MW is certainly large enough to get 'em out of their stables.

[Anubis]

On the last page or three, mol posted a big long post on exactly what he meant...

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2769047&postcount=193

yeah.. I just found it after I posted that

So.. siggy rules... is there some way for you all to figure those out?.. cause I did get fussed at once for a long siggy.. which was longer than some people's but shorter than others.. and since there is no actuial guidelines.. I'll probably end up getting busted for it again sooner or later...

[SSanf]

Well, we're not totally surprised... This has happened every time we've ever changed anything here.Nothing is written in stone. This should, at the very least, have a fair trial period to see how it goes.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Well, at least there will be less oppressive persectution going on around here eh! ;)

Im totally not being sarcasitic. Now some people can stop whining.

[CheshireEyes]

yeah.. I just found it after I posted that

So.. siggy rules... is there some way for you all to figure those out?.. cause I did get fussed at once for a long siggy.. which was longer than some people's but shorter than others.. and since there is no actuial guidelines.. I'll probably end up getting busted for it again sooner or later...

The system automatically forbids you past a certain point. I ran into it last night. I think the limit is 1000 words or something. But, yeah, system handles it automatically.

[Anubis]

The system automatically forbids you past a certain point. I ran into it last night. I think the limit is 1000 words or something. But, yeah, system handles it automatically.

ok then.. so the infraction would only be for putting offensive, bad, nasty things in our siggy that violates the "one rule".. gotcha!

[mol]

Do you guys have much of a problem with obviously-frivolous reporting?

Not instances of someone reporting a lot of probably harmless gray areas, but something like people reporting every single post someone makes in the hopes of landing some hits, complaints about "double-teaming," confusing any disagreement at all with a flame, etc?

Sometimes. But, they just get passed over. We usually have pretty good judgement.


As far as point values, what should and should not get nailed and how badly, etc? Nay; that's too fiddly to reduce to a poll.

On the question of placing the infractions threads in public, particularly with other users being able to participate in them? Yea.

Another more technical question - short of mass PMing, is there a way to contact The Mods as a collective?

That's not what I said. A poll on points? I said post a poll on if we should have a public infraction forum at all. I also meant discussing the point system with you all.

[SwordsFlameSong]

Well, we're still discussing how this should go. But either they'll all be public or they'll all be private. You do have the option of reading them or not too.


There are pros and cons to it each way you look at it. All one can hope for is that it will make for a better future for the community eh?

[mol]

Wow, gotta work, guys. Hopefully the other admins can continue responding to you. On a cool note...I got a lot of great emails and it seemed like they actually read what I wrote and gave some good recommendations. Just passing it along to you all.

See ya tonight.

[mol]

There are pros and cons to it each way you look at it. All one can hope for is that it will make for a better future for the community eh?
Amen, sistah!

[Penthesilea]

Basically:

The respect rule is still in effect. If you all do not feel we are making progress in this thread then I can put up a poll and feel out the community that way? In regards to publicly displaying the infraction threads, etc and allowing folks to speak publicly about their moderations.

Give me a yay or nay.I vote yay. If someone has a beef with something I've said or a position I've taken, I want to know it and have the opportunity to defend myself in public. I've never much cared for the "secret" aspect of moderation. It lends itself too easily to accusations of favoritism. I'm for putting it all out there and letting the buffalo chips fall where they may. [And that is not an attempt to get around the filter. It is a variation of a "farm country" expression.]

[LacyRoze]

For what it's worth, here's what I think... Let's put the new system in place and let it run for a couple of months. Then we can see what the real bugs in the system are as compared to what we're speculating they will be. We're never going to know for sure if it's a good system until we give it a trial run...

[Lunacie]

Sounds like a plan!

[Penthesilea]

I agree. It is not like whatever is decided is set in stone forever. You can't know for sure how something is going to work until it is "field tested."

[DragonsChest]

For what it's worth, here's what I think... Let's put the new system in place and let it run for a couple of months. Then we can see what the real bugs in the system are as compared to what we're speculating they will be. We're never going to know for sure if it's a good system until we give it a trial run...

Yes, I agree. :)

[Patriciaj]

For what it's worth, here's what I think... Let's put the new system in place and let it run for a couple of months. Then we can see what the real bugs in the system are as compared to what we're speculating they will be. We're never going to know for sure if it's a good system until we give it a trial run...

I agree!!

[CheshireEyes]

For what it's worth, here's what I think... Let's put the new system in place and let it run for a couple of months. Then we can see what the real bugs in the system are as compared to what we're speculating they will be. We're never going to know for sure if it's a good system until we give it a trial run...

While this is sound advice, it is also best to hammer out all the kinks as much as possible, BEFORE starting it.

Would you get into an experimental aircraft before all the kinks had been worked out?

[MockingbirdOxygen]

so if I were to type "Gods, what is wrong with these people?" you would find that offensive?.. I'm sure someone would... yeah.. time for me to shut the heck up.. or is "heck" offensive too?.. grrr.. *walks on eggshells back to the box and hides* _inabox_
Well that's a purty good point there, boodangit!
...

:smash: yeah... but what about the atheists? Isn't it disrespectfull to them, to say that you cannot take the name of the Lord in vain, when they do not believe such a lord exists, and therefore it is just a word?



For what it's worth, here's what I think... Let's put the new system in place and let it run for a couple of months. Then we can see what the real bugs in the system are as compared to what we're speculating they will be. We're never going to know for sure if it's a good system until we give it a trial run...
Yeah, that is true.


While this is sound advice, it is also best to hammer out all the kinks as much as possible, BEFORE starting it.

Would you get into an experimental aircraft before all the kinks had been worked out?

hmmm... that is true too... :)

[Deranged Hermit]

Well that's a purty good point there, boodangit!
...

:smash: yeah... but what about the atheists? Isn't it disrespectfull to them, to say that you cannot take the name of the Lord in vain, when they do not believe such a lord exists, and therefore it is just a word?


Yeah, that is true.



hmmm... that is true too... :)


Hey now AuntBooPeace rog, you can't agree with everyone!

_wedgie_

~DH
scared to use the "F" :blushake:

[Darakash]

Hey now AuntBooPeace rog, you can't agree with everyone!

_wedgie_

~DH
scared to use the "F" :blushake:

uh....you sure that wedgie smiley is appropriate?:lol:

[Deranged Hermit]

For what it's worth, here's what I think... Let's put the new system in place and let it run for a couple of months. Then we can see what the real bugs in the system are as compared to what we're speculating they will be. We're never going to know for sure if it's a good system until we give it a trial run...

Ideally, that would be great. But I think what's got most of us in such an uproar is seeing the infractions that have already been doled out. At that rate, there won't be any of us left to complain 2 months from now. ;)
Or we'll all be too afraid to say anything by then...
_inabox_

[Lunacie]

While this is sound advice, it is also best to hammer out all the kinks as much as possible, BEFORE starting it.

Would you get into an experimental aircraft before all the kinks had been worked out?

If it was a new model of an aircraft that had been flying for a long time without a lot of problems, then yes.

MW is actually more like a school bus and the rules are the same now as they've been for a long time. But now the passengers are being allowed to discuss it when someone breaks the rules and might get banned from riding the bus.

[CheshireEyes]

If it was a new model of an aircraft that had been flying for a long time without a lot of problems, then yes.

MW is actually more like a school bus and the rules are the same now as they've been for a long time. But now the passengers are being allowed to discuss it when someone breaks the rules and might get banned from riding the bus.

Nah, its more like the same bus that had pontoons fitted to it so it can cross rivers, but all the holes in the pontoons haven't been patched yet. Do you still wanna cross the river in it? :p

[TheWomanMonster]

Nah, its more like the same bus that had pontoons fitted to it so it can cross rivers, but all the holes in the pontoons haven't been patched yet. Do you still wanna cross the river in it? :p

Heck, let's do it. We can all swim, right?
Monster

[Zibblsnrt]

Would you get into an experimental aircraft before all the kinks had been worked out?

Not without an insurance policy, but then again, an experimental aircraft is likely to injure or kill me if something is a bit off in it. Using MW is not a matter of life or death, so the comparison's somewhere between silly and absurd.


Ideally, that would be great. But I think what's got most of us in such an uproar is seeing the infractions that have already been doled out. At that rate, there won't be any of us left to complain 2 months from now.

What you're seeing is a typical couple days' worth of admin-modings from the politics forum, nothing really out of the ordinary. There's always about that much moderator attention being placed on that part of the site.

[CheshireEyes]

Not without an insurance policy, but then again, an experimental aircraft is likely to injure or kill me if something is a bit off in it. Using MW is not a matter of life or death, so the comparison's somewhere between silly and absurd.


It was an analogy, don't take things so literally._wedgie_

[CheshireEyes]

Heck, let's do it. We can all swim, right?
Monster

:yayah:

[Athena-Nadine]

Heck, let's do it. We can all swim, right?
Monster
I can't. :p

[Shanti]

I am confused because I am getting mixed signals. Now friggin and frickin and such are ok but the message doesn't seem clear.

Using f---, friggin and such are going around sensors so what does this mean?

Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

This sounds like you cant use substitutes:


Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 14 days


And this sounds like no friggin, fricked or others:


Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.

And finally a probably? I don't fee to good on a probably.

Has anyone ever reported you for saying f---- in the rant thread? I have never seen it. And therefore you would probably never get an infraction for that.

So I will ask it simply.

If I say friggin, or fricken and such and its reported, because some people like doing that, especially if they disagree, will I get an infraction?
Examples:
1. 'That new law is friggen reduculus.'
2. 'That politician is f***n twisting that report.'
3. 'I cant believe that person f---- did that to that puppy!'
4. 'WTF?'

If reported, will I get or not get an infraction for going around the sensors? (As clearly exampled here.)

I am just trying to be positive on what may happen. I don't want surprises later.

[Deranged Hermit]

What you're seeing is a typical couple days' worth of admin-modings from the politics forum, nothing really out of the ordinary. There's always about that much moderator attention being placed on that part of the site.

Have you guys gotten slapped for mentioning karma before now? I'm just curious, because to me this is a brand new violation I didn't know about until today. Gods know I've mentioned it enough times in the past.