Bibles Being Passed Out In Public High Schools

[blackcatwiccan01090]

Yesterday the Gideons set up an information booth at the front of our school and were passing out bibles to all the students, and also did this at the elementary school. There are many things wrong with this.

1. Yes, it is their right to do it, its a free country. However, when we asked if we could set up informational booths on Wicca, we were turned down.

2. This causes alot of controversy within the student body. Friends turn on friends because the Gideons just pointed out the fact that about half the student body isn't christian. Now its being discussed in the classrooms, and people like me are put on the spot and discriminated against. While we're trying to get an education, now we have to worry about being seen without one of those little bibles...

3. Three fights have broken out already between christians and non christians because some supported the gideons while others thought it was wrong to shove it into our faces

4. Its a HIGH SCHOOL where we are trying to LEARN... go the **** away...


What do you think about all this? What is right? Was it wrong? What do you think?

[Anne of the Faire]

I believe that information should be available to those who seek it. If the Gideons are to have a booth on the campus, they should remain at the booth and let seekers come to them. I also believe that all faiths should be granted the same consideration. Wiccan, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Muslim, Zoroastrian, and so forth.

[RoseKitten]

If they're on school grounds, and the school gave them permission, than the school cannot turn down other religious groups. Contact the ACLU I supposed. Personally, so long as it's not forced or causing problems (which, in your case it is), then there's nothing wrong with it so long as all groups can participate.

[BlueEyedWolf]

Qoute:Anne of the Faire-
I believe that information should be available to those who seek it. If the Gideons are to have a booth on the campus, they should remain at the booth and let seekers come to them. I also believe that all faiths should be granted the same consideration. Wiccan, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Muslim, Zoroastrian, and so forth.
It is wrong to SHOVE it at people.

[Chesna]

I think it should not be in the school..outside on the sidewalk yes..then they can not approach people..others need to approach them. But if they were on school grounds..ALL OTHER RELIGIONS should be granted equal access.

Chesna

[Brightshores]

Yesterday the Gideons set up an information booth at the front of our school and were passing out bibles to all the students, and also did this at the elementary school. There are many things wrong with this.

This is a public high school? In the USA? On school property? Wow. In the school where I work, I can't picture anyone trying to pull that.



1. Yes, it is their right to do it, its a free country. However, when we asked if we could set up informational booths on Wicca, we were turned down.


I smell court case. This is the kind of thing that ends up in the Supreme Court.

Did the principal and administration approve this, or are these people just sort of showing up and passing things out?


2. This causes alot of controversy within the student body. Friends turn on friends because the Gideons just pointed out the fact that about half the student body isn't christian.

Of course. It's high school. People who are "different" or "non-mainstream" get picked on. I imagine it would only be worse in the elementary schools.



Now its being discussed in the classrooms, and people like me are put on the spot and discriminated against.


Are the teachers discriminating against you, or just other students? How are the teachers handling the discussions?



While we're trying to get an education, now we have to worry about being seen without one of those little bibles...


Precisely the reason that this shouldn't be happening.



3. Three fights have broken out already between christians and non christians because some supported the gideons while others thought it was wrong to shove it into our faces


And the administration didn't stop this why?



4. Its a HIGH SCHOOL where we are trying to LEARN... go the hug away...


Exactly. This is clearly interfering with the normal process of education, which is why the administrators should stop it immediately, and should never have approved it in the first place.


Yes, it is a free country. Yes, religion can and should be discussed in a nonconfrontational way in public schools. Yes, there should be religious texts of many faiths available in the school library for students who are interested.

Proselytizing (and thrusting Bibles into the hands of elementary school students is proselytizing, IMO) should not be allowed during the school day at a public school, particularly if one religion is permitted to do so and others are not.

[JyuMuse]

They did that to me when I was a kid too. I remember being in 4th grade or so and one of them would stand infront of every bus and hand everyone a bible as they got on the bus. I didn't even know what it was when I took it but I just left it on the bus I think. I remeber some of the older high school kids being forced to take them and they were mad so they pulled down their windows and threw the bibles back at the men handing them out.

I would say I'm against this. I don't think they did it when I was in high school but they did it a couple times during elementary. I didn't care that much, I would just throw their bible away anyway, but I imagine it might have caused fights between non-christians and christians who are friends. Religion should be left at home, school is a non-religious institution and there's no reason for conversion to be happening there - which is IMHO the goal of the men who pass out the bibles.

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I say no for public schools...private schools are another matter and can do as they wish. But i don't think it's ok in public schools. Schools are there to teach students, and while learning about religion is all well and good there are a) religion classes which in theory give an unbiased look at various religions b) churches and other religious institutions for an individual to go to if they want to learn more about a religion. I think it's especially wrong with the younger kids, as they are much more easily influenced. Also, i believe that this violates the seperation of church and state, since public schools are funded by the government.

One day at my college, as i was leaving class there was a gentleman prostelyzing to the students as they were going about their business and avoiding him. I think pretty much all the students I saw ignored him, as i watched briefly, a school official made him stay across the road from the school buildings on the green.

[WitchCraftWeaver]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't one of the things founding fathers wrote into its Constitution a separation of Church and State?

[Zibblsnrt]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't one of the things founding fathers wrote into its Constitution a separation of Church and State?

Church and state are being kept seperate in this case - I'm assuming the Gideons are in front of, not on or in, the school, and they certainly aren't a government body. It might be distasteful, but it's legal.

The school's forbidding other groups from doing the same is illegal, however.

[Layla]

Church and state are being kept seperate in this case - I'm assuming the Gideons are in front of, not on or in, the school, and they certainly aren't a government body. It might be distasteful, but it's legal.

The school's forbidding other groups from doing the same is illegal, however.
Agreed. If its gonna happen, its gonna happen...imagining the path to the school being blocked with tons of fundies right now...not cool IMHO.

Let the kids go to school, just a concept I have here. Let questioners go where they will and let the kids get to school.

[Zibblsnrt]

Agreed. If its gonna happen, its gonna happen...imagining the path to the school being blocked with tons of fundies right now...not cool IMHO.

Let the kids go to school, just a concept I have here. Let questioners go where they will and let the kids get to school.


On the other hand, as long as the kids can get to school without being directly confronted/intimidated, there's no harm being done save for people being exposed to "the wrong" ideas. Folks like this hung around my high school when I was attending; they were respectful about it too, even with the lack of church/state separation Canada has.

[starfire]

The booth shouldn't be on the school property. If it is next to the property, not much you can do, it is up to the individual to take it or leave it. I have seen people do this at college, but I think that is different. Highschool age people are looking for answers and can make decisions. I definately think elementary school is out. Who knows who these people are, children could be at risk in the name of the "bible". And so for protections they should be escorted away from school property in either case.

Perhaps there should be a pagan booth, with a sign, "what paganism is really all about" I hope you can use this as a tool to educate people. Unfortunately even in highschool many are jerks and if you are the odd man out, you pay for it. I almost feel you should go to the principle and state that religion is being pushed on students in a public school, and it is interfereing with your studing. Also, you should be permitted to leave unless you are in a world religion class that has the purpose of exploring a variety of religions.

[wolfjan1]

NO RELIGIOUS GROUPS ON SCHOOL GROUNDS> If this was allowed by the administration, they should be investigated. This is NOT equal representation and is illegal. I do not understand why no one went to the press with this. EVERY SINGLE TIME THIS HAPPENS, GO IMMEDIATELY TO THE PRESS. Do not confront them, do not say a word. The press would do it for you, especially when you start talking about separation of church and state. IT's a HOT topic at election season. It's time to get busy folks.

[ladyraven]

If the people were on school grounds, then what they did was illegal. If they were standing in the street in front of the school that kids have to cross or go on to, then it's legal. If you felt like you were being hounded to turn to christianity, then go speak with school administratives as well as the church they were from. Though it seems odd, if you tell a church that you don't like the way they are representing, they tend to take into consideration. Also, if they harass you afterwards, then you can file suit.

[Harmony Aurore]

I think that there shouldn't be a problem with the guideons passing out bibles AS LONG as other religions aren't excluded from setting up a booth. Since the principal likely doesn't want 50 different booths from 50 different religions in his hallway, then he shouldn't favour one christian group... he should no longer allow the guideons to do their thing.

2nd. I think it's completely wrong to let them pass bibles in a public elementary school. These kids are very vulnerable and impressionable. If I sent my five year old to a public school, it's because i DON'T want theology shoved down his throat and I'd be really pissed to hear that 1) he's being bullied because the christians won't let him in on their reindeer games (going with the kids are impressionable exclusive club type heard)
2) him feeling pressured into a religion that I didn't introduce him to or give the "ok" to.

This whole bible passing idea stinks

[CheshireEyes]

I'm gonna throw in my lot with the, as long as they aren't doing in anything in violation of the law might as well let 'em. But, I also don't think its right that they forbid other religious information from being distributed.

Do you go to a private school? If so, then I do not think the separation b/w church and state would apply.


just my two cents...._inabox_

[Storm Moon]

I don't think it should be allowed on public school properties, but private schools can, I guess, especially if they are a religious school. I'm not sure I'm crazy about the idea of this though, and the fact that they won't let anyone from another faith do this is absolutely disgusting. I would go to the press if I were you. That would really be interesting.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Okay,talking about In Your Face type stuff,,How many times have I heard feminist scream ,,,We Are Feminist,We are ANGRY,And we are in your face!

I heard this with my own ears.Gay rights activist do the same,they get in your face.So,I see no problem with passing out bibles,and it seems hardly like an in your face type thing.If you dont want one,dont take it.

I do feel that if you can pass out bibles,then any group should be also allowed to pass out bibles,,,like the satanic bible,,the Wiccan bible,,The Gospel of Aradia,,the Koran,,,the Jewish scripts,,and so on.

Its against the law to discriminate,and allow christian bibles only to be passed out,and to ban other groups.

The Gideons are a harmless bunch,they rareley proselatize,,they just seem to have this fettish with passing out bibles.You rarely see them active in politics.

They pass out bibles,thats it.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I think that there shouldn't be a problem with the guideons passing out bibles AS LONG as other religions aren't excluded from setting up a booth. Since the principal likely doesn't want 50 different booths from 50 different religions in his hallway, then he shouldn't favour one christian group... he should no longer allow the guideons to do their thing.

2nd. I think it's completely wrong to let them pass bibles in a public elementary school. These kids are very vulnerable and impressionable. If I sent my five year old to a public school, it's because i DON'T want theology shoved down his throat and I'd be really pissed to hear that 1) he's being bullied because the christians won't let him in on their reindeer games (going with the kids are impressionable exclusive club type heard)
2) him feeling pressured into a religion that I didn't introduce him to or give the "ok" to.

This whole bible passing idea stinkswell,should we bann all other religious writings as well?How can a child learn if you are not allowed to discuss religion?When most warsd are caused by religion,and religions move the world,,and have a great influence in what happens.

Should we put blinders on them?

Should we bann the teachings of ancient greek mytholagy also?It is a religion too you know,,,,and we wouldnt want to -shove greek religions down anyones throat,,would we?

What about ancient Egyptian religions?Should we make sure we dont shove that down our childrens throats either?

I say let all sides have freedom to voice thier views,and let the children decide.

To many times all mention of christianity is banned,,but it has played a great roll in shaping our nation,its laws,and its culture.To refuse to even discuss this in school is discrimination,,born of intolerance and fear,and sometimes hate.

[Avalanche]

well,should we bann all other religious writings as well?How can a child learn if you are not allowed to discuss religion?When most warsd are caused by religion,and religions move the world,,and have a great influence in what happens.

Should we put blinders on them?

Should we bann the teachings of ancient greek mytholagy also?It is a religion too you know,,,,and we wouldnt want to -shove greek religions down anyones throat,,would we?

What about ancient Egyptian religions?Should we make sure we dont shove that down our childrens throats either?

I say let all sides have freedom to voice thier views,and let the children decide.

To many times all mention of christianity is banned,,but it has played a great roll in shaping our nation,its laws,and its culture.To refuse to even discuss this in school is discrimination,,born of intolerance and fear,and sometimes hate.

The thing about the ancient religions is that most people see them as mythology, which makes them think fiction. I remember learning about the Greek and Egyptian gods and bits about the religion in elementary school, and I never thought anyone did or ever had actually followed that as a religion.

I don't see a problem with religious discussion in schools. I don't have a problem with the Bible clubs or people praying in school. Now, if we were forced to pray (like in boot camp), I would be severely pissed off. If someone found out I wasn't Christian and discriminated against me, I'd probably punch them in the face.

If someone pushes Bibles in your face, throw it back at them. Or better yet, carry a lighter around and burn it right there.

[Harmony Aurore]

well,should we bann all other religious writings as well?How can a child learn if you are not allowed to discuss religion?When most warsd are caused by religion,and religions move the world,,and have a great influence in what happens.

Should we put blinders on them?

Should we bann the teachings of ancient greek mytholagy also?It is a religion too you know,,,,and we wouldnt want to -shove greek religions down anyones throat,,would we?

What about ancient Egyptian religions?Should we make sure we dont shove that down our childrens throats either?

I say let all sides have freedom to voice thier views,and let the children decide.

To many times all mention of christianity is banned,,but it has played a great roll in shaping our nation,its laws,and its culture.To refuse to even discuss this in school is discrimination,,born of intolerance and fear,and sometimes hate.

It's not about banning everything. The problem is impressionability of children and the contect they take everything. When you send a kid to public school, you expect that teaching religion will be left to the parents. Kids in high school have a higher cognitive power to make their own informed decisions, but when it comes to elementary kids, they tend to only get half the picture and function on that. So then you get your playground descrimination. kids hear that you must believe in christ to go to heaven, then you get a muslim girl running home crying because the kids in class told her she was going to hell. At a young age, it's up to parents to educate their children about religion... especially in a PUBLIC school where religion shouldn't be involved in the learning.

If you want your child to learn about the christian theology, send them to a christian school or catholic school.

I would be just as pissed if Coca Cola set up a booth in my kid's elementary school trying to canvass to children. It's advertising to an age group that is extremely impressionable.
Canvassing to young children in general should not be allowed in ANY school. School should be in general and advertising free zone.

[RubyRose]

I don't agree with it. But then I didn't have a religious upbringing. And Religion wasn't an issue at the schools I attended.

[MariThorn]

I know I'm a Catholic witch, but if there is this seperation of state and church, then there should be no passing out of Christian religious material at public schools. The Bible is clearly a religious book of Christians along with Judaic and sometimes Islamic faith. If the Gideons can pass out Bibles, then Muslims should be allowed to pass our K'orans and Wiccans should be able to share their beliefs.

Not to mention that if they are passing Bibles out they oughta at least hand out the one that didn't have things taken out :hahugh:

Marithorn

PS When I was a child, the Gideons came into classrooms and handed out little red Bibles. They don't talk about their religion they hand out their religious book. They have different kinds of Bibles but all of them are Protestant. They hand them out to people in resturaunts or wherever they are at that moment. It is part of their calling to carry God's Word and give it to whomever wants it.

[bbnflpn]

i do not like this one bit,


Yesterday the Gideons set up an information booth at the front of our school and were passing out bibles to all the students, and also did this at the elementary school. There are many things wrong with this.

if these schools are private then ok but if they are public there is an issue.



1. Yes, it is their right to do it, its a free country. However, when we asked if we could set up informational booths on Wicca, we were turned down.


if they are there then other religous groups should be included and if not then it should be taken up with the aclu, it should be none or all represented not one, with the others tumbed at.



2. This causes alot of controversy within the student body. Friends turn on friends because the Gideons just pointed out the fact that about half the student body isn't christian. Now its being discussed in the classrooms, and people like me are put on the spot and discriminated against. While we're trying to get an education, now we have to worry about being seen without one of those little bibles...


now being that this is happening, i would see it as a huge problem, it has now caused tension, why is the school letting this continue, this looks to be the start of a "witch hunt"



3. Three fights have broken out already between christians and non christians because some supported the gideons while others thought it was wrong to shove it into our faces


if the gideons were supporting these fights why were they not asked to leave immediatly, and why is the school allowing this kind of thing to happen in the first place.



4. Its a HIGH SCHOOL where we are trying to LEARN... go the hug away...


right, and now it looks like people are learning discrimination, hatred and religous as well as cultural bias



What do you think about all this? What is right? Was it wrong? What do you think?

i know that kids are gonna be exposed to new things, new religons, and what not, but this is not the way to do it, odviously this is starting some real trouble at this school. people are splitting down the line this looks to be a bad situation, i would definatly report this, even if it is happening in a private school, if you are paying for your education you still have the right to a safe place to learn, no matter what your religon is even if it is not the one supported by that school.

[SilverSeraphim]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't one of the things founding fathers wrote into its Constitution a separation of Church and State?


No. "Separation of church and state"- at least the way it's meant today- is NOT specifically in the Constitution. What is written in the Constitution is a guarantee that the government will not establish a State religion or lack thereof.

[Mesektet]

No. "Separation of church and state"- at least the way it's meant today- is NOT specifically in the Constitution. What is written in the Constitution is a guarantee that the government will not establish a State religion or lack thereof.

Just like how "right-to-privacy" is a legal myth as well. Or at least legal misdirection.

[Liberty]

Not in school but outside maybe.
I'm assuming you're talking about primary and high school level.
Only if other faiths are allowed to pass out their reading/educational materials too. It's only fair.

[Cynyr]

Church and state are being kept seperate in this case - I'm assuming the Gideons are in front of, not on or in, the school, and they certainly aren't a government body. It might be distasteful, but it's legal.

The school's forbidding other groups from doing the same is illegal, however.

I disagree with Zibblsnrt. the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Since this was at a public school, which is funded by the government, then their assembling and passing out of bibles is in effect a 'respecting an establishment of religion'. The 'free exercise thereof' clause prohibits government from interferring with folk assembling at church and exercising their beliefs. School is not the place for religious worship nor for proselytising. I believe the People's First Amendment rights were violated in this case; the school officials fostered a hostile environment for non-Christians; the school officials excluded representatives of other religions (according to the original poster) from participating.

[Zibblsnrt]

If someone pushes Bibles in your face, throw it back at them. Or better yet, carry a lighter around and burn it right there.

... Really, now. Come on.


It's not about banning everything. The problem is impressionability of children and the contect they take everything.

Once a "child" reaches high school - which this particular event took place at, obviously - I think it's time to start giving them a certain amount of credit as a sapient human being capable of some level of independent thought.

I'm not a big fan about "protecting" people from ideas or the risk of being upset, no matter what those ideas or risks are.


Since this was at a public school, which is funded by the government, then their assembling and passing out of bibles is in effect a 'respecting an establishment of religion'.

Incorrect. The power of the state is not being thrown behind this action, merely its acquiescence. If the bibles were being passed out off school grounds, then it's doubly incorrect.

The matter of forbidding other groups to set up a similar body presumably on school grounds is a different matter; if the Wiccan group wanted to set something up just off campus to "compete" with the Gideons, they need neither permission nor approval from the school.

The law as it currently stands on the subject of religious groups on school campuses is that, if any such groups are allowed, all such groups are allowed. That's specifically in the context of study/worship groups; this instance is a non-school-related group and is thus somewhat different. The general principle stands though; freedom of religion does not mean freedom from it. Allowing it to come up in one way or another on school property is quite legal, provided other similar groups are allowed and the school isn't mandating it on the students.

[Cynyr]

Incorrect. The power of the state is not being thrown behind this action, merely its acquiescence. If the bibles were being passed out off school grounds, then it's doubly incorrect.


There need not be a 'state power' present and endorsing this offense for this to be a violation. I"m sure the ACLU would also disagree with their actions.

[Thunder]

Church and state are being kept seperate in this case - I'm assuming the Gideons are in front of, not on or in, the school, and they certainly aren't a government body. It might be distasteful, but it's legal.

The school's forbidding other groups from doing the same is illegal, however.

No it isn't. This would never have happened in NY. I agree with Brightshores... if this isn't headed to the courts it should be.

[Xirian]

Okay,talking about In Your Face type stuff,,How many times have I heard feminist scream ,,,We Are Feminist,We are ANGRY,And we are in your face!

I heard this with my own ears.Gay rights activist do the same,they get in your face.So,I see no problem with passing out bibles,and it seems hardly like an in your face type thing.If you dont want one,dont take it.

I do feel that if you can pass out bibles,then any group should be also allowed to pass out bibles,,,like the satanic bible,,the Wiccan bible,,The Gospel of Aradia,,the Koran,,,the Jewish scripts,,and so on.

Its against the law to discriminate,and allow christian bibles only to be passed out,and to ban other groups.

The Gideons are a harmless bunch,they rareley proselatize,,they just seem to have this fettish with passing out bibles.You rarely see them active in politics.

They pass out bibles,thats it.
I tend to agree with this. My son is in 5th grade and if he was given a bible, I'm sure he wouldn't try reading it right on the spot. He'd most likely bring it home to me and ask me what it was or leave it in his backpack to rot since he tends to be fairly forgettful. And even if he did read it, I'm sure he wouldn't understand it without asking lots and lots of questions. I'm not going to deny him reading the myths of any religion, just because of my own personal issues. I want him to be well learned and understand that every religion has some sort of myth.

I think just reading the Old Testament, he would question the "miracles" that took place and figure that it was a book of stories and geneologic documentation, which is what I would tell him it was, because that's really what it is, IMO. Similar to other religious books.

I think that most children (high school students as well) would bring the book home to their parents. I mean seriously, do you really think that a child that gets a bible is going to be converted just by reading it one time? I've read it three times and I still have tons of questions. It wouldn't have any true context to anything in their lives, unless their parents were already Christians. I think it would actually take some mentoring or proding from someone else to really be converted.

I personally feel that anyone who is upset over this, has a huge amount of free time on their hands. To each their own though. I didn't vote because there wasn't a "does it really truly matter" option.

[Hærfest Leah]

What do you think about all this? What is right? Was it wrong? What do you think?


It's total crap! I agree with thunder, someone needs to be making a legal stink about this occurrence. I know if one of my girls was handed one and not knowing what to do, just brought it home and told me I'd be headed right up to the school and then it would be tossed in the trash....there.

[Thunder]

This has nothing to do with education or teaching kids about the bible. The Gideons are an Evangelical Ministry.

Taken from the Gideons website:

Welcome to
The Gideons International
September 23, 2006

The Gideons International serves as an extended missionary arm of the church: Our sole purpose is to win men, women, boys and girls to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through association for service, personal testimony, and distributing the Bible in the human traffic lanes and streams of everyday life.

If you see any balance in this ... I'd like some of what you're smokin.

[Philosophia]

I remember getting one when I was a kid. Nearly all of the bibles were being used as little missles and spit balls by the students and the rest were confiscated by the teachers.

*sigh* those were the days...

[Brightshores]

No it isn't. This would never have happened in NY. I agree with Brightshores... if this isn't headed to the courts it should be.

I believe the legal technicality involved has very little to do with the fact that the Gideons are passing out the Bibles... it's the fact that the administration, who are public employees, in a public school, paid via property taxes, are permitting one religion to be practiced within their school district and are not permitting other religions to be practiced.

This equals government employees choosing a single religion to be represented in a public place.

This, in turn, equals state establishment of religion, which is unconstitutional.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think this is the central issue here.

[Thunder]

I believe the legal technicality involved has very little to do with the fact that the Gideons are passing out the Bibles... it's the fact that the administration, who are public employees, in a public school, paid via property taxes, are permitting one religion to be practiced within their school district and are not permitting other religions to be practiced.

This equals government employees choosing a single religion to be represented in a public place.

This, in turn, equals state establishment of religion, which is unconstitutional.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think this is the central issue here.

Are you from the U.S. ??? NO RELIGION may be practiced in public schools. Period. This is practically "Black Letter Law" If a teacher in my school district brought in a bible as part of a lesson... said teacher would be in great danger of suspension.

You also misunderstand the concept of public space... a Public school is public by virtue of the fact that it is paid for by tax dollars... it is not, however, a public space. It is tightly controlled and quite restricted. The Mall is a public space and even they get to decide who hands out what.

This is not even debatable.

[Brightshores]

Are you from the U.S. ??? NO RELIGION may be practiced in public schools. Period. This practically "Black Letter Law" If a teacher in my school district brought in a bible as part of a lesson... said teacher would be in great danger of suspension.

This is not even debatable.

Sorry, bad wording choice on my part. You are absolutely correct. What I meant to point out is that the administrators in this case are allowing representatives from one religion to operate within their sphere of influence and not allowing representation from other faiths.

(Yes, I'm from the US, and I work in public schools to boot.)

My main point was that these state employees are picking one and only one religion, and allowing people who represent that religion to pass out religious literature. This is essentially permitting proselytizing of a single religion, as you said in your earlier post. This, to my mind, constitutes state establishment of a specific religion. Which, I think we both agree, is unconstitutional.

[Thunder]

Sorry, bad wording choice on my part. You are absolutely correct. What I meant to point out is that the administrators in this case are allowing representatives from one religion to operate within their sphere of influence and not allowing representation from other faiths.

(Yes, I'm from the US, and I work in public schools to boot.)

My main point was that these state employees are picking one and only one religion, and allowing people who represent that religion to pass out religious literature. This is essentially permitting proselytizing of a single religion, as you said in your earlier post. This, to my mind, constitutes state establishment of a specific religion. Which, I think we both agree, is unconstitutional.

Agreed. Personally, I think religion is way to personal to be either presented or digested properly in the school environment. My children are all grown, my grand children go to private school. I don't teach anymore. Couldn't take all the whining (not the kids, they were great... the staff).

As to the Gideon thing... considering their stated purpose, I doubt there is a judge or a jury in the land that would believe they were not evangelizing. This would be a slam dunk.

[CheshireEyes]

Are you from the U.S. ??? NO RELIGION may be practiced in public schools. Period. This is practically "Black Letter Law" If a teacher in my school district brought in a bible as part of a lesson... said teacher would be in great danger of suspension.



Truly? Even if they were using it in a historical context rather than religious? Not being a teacher I do not know.

To get off the bible for a second, while still in the same ballpark, if a history teacher was discussing the attack on the world trade center and was illustrating where certain muslim clerics interpret the Qur'an to make said attack justified in their religion would that still be wrong? If the teacher had brought the Qur'an in and was discussing those passages in that sense that is verboten?

Its been a LONG time since i was in school so i don't know what current interpretation of the law would be.

Thanks for any info, genuinely curious. :)

[Brightshores]

Agreed. Personally, I think religion is way to personal to be either presented or digested properly in the school environment.

I think it certainly can be, depending on how it's handled. I have, though, both seen and taught required World Cultures classes to high school students where world religions are presented for informational purposes only. Kids are responsible for knowing the basic tenets of each faith, but are not allowed to mock or debate their validity in any way. I do think it's valuable for kids to learn that there are other religions in the world, and that these religions are not scary or "evil" in any way. I think this sort of thing can be successful, if the teachers handle it well and if the curriculum is designed correctly.


I don't teach anymore. Couldn't take all the whining (not the kids, they were great... the staff).
:lol: You've definitely seen the inside of a teachers' lounge or two.


As to the Gideon thing... considering their stated purpose, I doubt there is a judge or a jury in the land that would believe they were not evangelizing. This would be a slam dunk.
I agree completely, 100%. Why else pass out Bibles to random people? If they weren't evangelizing, they could just as well be passing out The Joy of Cooking. Often, the most obvious motivation is the correct one.

[Brightshores]

Truly? Even if they were using it in a historical context rather than religious? Not being a teacher I do not know.

To get off the bible for a second, while still in the same ballpark, if a history teacher was discussing the attack on the world trade center and was illustrating where certain muslim clerics interpret the Qur'an to make said attack justified in their religion would that still be wrong? If the teacher had brought the Qur'an in and was discussing those passages in that sense that is verboten?

In my experience, and the law does differ from state to state and even from school district to school district, the use of religious texts in a literary or historical context is often OK as long as the teacher is very careful to keep all hint of "preaching" out of it.

To use your example:

The history teacher presents a lesson about terrorism, and uses passages in the Qur'an, in context and in conjunction with other secular sources, to explain the radical Islamic mindset. This would be OK.

The history teacher presents a lesson about terrorism, and uses passages in the Qu'ran to make a case for why the terrorists are correct and justified in their actions, and why God thinks it's OK for them to do that sort of thing. This would not be OK.

The history teacher presents a lesson about terrorism, and uses passages in the Qu'ran to explain the radical Islamic mindset. Then the teacher counters these passages with Bible verses to explain why the terrorists are evil and wrong. This would also not be OK.

Personally, I've also seen Bible stories (Noah and the Ark, Ruth, etc.) in English textbooks in public schools, in "Ancient Near Eastern Literature" chapters along with passages from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Egyptian and Persian myths. In these cases, no attempt is made to treat the Bible stories as anything more or less than the surrounding works, and they are read in historical and literary context. Of course, the chosen excerpts from the Bible are not the more "believe or you'll go to Hell" parts, but the various stories and tales that are less controversial.

Like I said, though, this sort of thing may not be acceptable everywhere - I can just speak for the two states I've studied and taught in. Other answers and opinions may differ accordingly.

[Thunder]

Truly? Even if they were using it in a historical context rather than religious? Not being a teacher I do not know.

To get off the bible for a second, while still in the same ballpark, if a history teacher was discussing the attack on the world trade center and was illustrating where certain muslim clerics interpret the Qur'an to make said attack justified in their religion would that still be wrong? If the teacher had brought the Qur'an in and was discussing those passages in that sense that is verboten?

Its been a LONG time since i was in school so i don't know what current interpretation of the law would be.

Thanks for any info, genuinely curious. :)

Practice may differ from state to state but the law doesn't. It isn't state law. It is constitutional law.


There are certain parts of the country (Bible Belt) where this probably would not be the case, only because most of the parents would support the Christian point of view. In those areas the quran would get that reaction but not the bible. In the northeast, however, (or for that matter any Blue state) the principle is the most important thing. Anything that smells like teaching religion in the school would be nixed. The district where I taught was hyper sensitive about allot of issues. They tend to err on the side of not getting sued. The case law on this is pretty clear. It never goes the other way. Even in the Bible belt if it actually goes to court the decision is always the same... religion is out. They even make state houses remove the "Ten Commandments". It is just the way it is.

Personally, I like it that way. With all due respect to Brightshores, the school district that could teach religions without offending someone doesn't exist.

[Brightshores]

Personally, I like it that way. With all due respect to Brightshores, the school district that could teach religions without offending someone doesn't exist.

You've got a very good point there. I can only speak from my experience, though, and in my "blue state," it seemed to work quite well. I can't swear, though, that none of my students were ever offended, although if they were, neither they nor their parents mentioned it to me or my colleagues.

In my experience, the school district that can teach anything without offending somebody doesn't exist. :)

In science, it's the creationists vs. the evolutionists. Pure vs. applied science. Chemistry vs. biology vs. physics vs. ecology. Book-learning vs. hands-on experience.
In history, it's the purists vs. the revisionists. World history vs. national history vs. local history. Which groups are represented from which ways through which perspectives?
In English, it's the Canon vs. the literature of the underrepresented. Phonics vs. whole-language. Grammar vs. literature.
In foreign languages, it's the traditional French/German/Spanish vs. Chinese and Arabic.
In math, it's theoretical math (calculus) vs. practical math (balancing checkbooks).
All academic subjects vs. practical arts (e.g. home ec, shop, vocational school, etc.)

Unfortunately, everybody's got an agenda, and there's only so much money and so many instructional hours to go around. And when it comes to kids, people (understandably) do tend to be quite touchy.

It's enough to make anyone a bit nutty, I think. :awilly:

[CheshireEyes]

Practice may differ from state to state but the law doesn't. It isn't state law. It is constitutional law.


There are certain parts of the country (Bible Belt) where this probably would not be the case, only because most of the parents would support the Christian point of view. In those areas the quran would get that reaction but not the bible. In the northeast, however, (or for that matter any Blue state) the principle is the most important thing. Anything that smells like teaching religion in the school would be nixed. The district where I taught was hyper sensitive about allot of issues. They tend to err on the side of not getting sued. The case law on this is pretty clear. It never goes the other way. Even in the Bible belt if it actually goes to court the decision is always the same... religion is out. They even make state houses remove the "Ten Commandments". It is just the way it is.

Personally, I like it that way. With all due respect to Brightshores, the school district that could teach religions without offending someone doesn't exist.

I understand where you are coming from. Did you teach in one of the five boroughs? I'd expect them to be more litigious than the rest of the state.

[CheshireEyes]

In my experience, the school district that can teach anything without offending somebody doesn't exist. :)

In biology, it's the creationists vs. the evolutionists.
In history, it's the purists vs. the revisionists.
In English, it's the Canon vs. the literature of the underrepresented.
In foreign languages, it's the traditional French/German/Spanish vs. Chinese and Arabic.
In math, it's theoretical math (calculus) vs. practical math (balancing checkbooks).

Unfortunately, everybody's got an agenda, and there's only so much money and so many instructional hours to go around. And when it comes to kids, people (understandably) do tend to be quite touchy.

You've got a point there as well.

[Brightshores]

(Sorry, I edited that last one about eight times, adding and changing stuff. Not trying to confuse anyone. :awilly: )

Time for me to go to bed. I'm starting to confuse myself now. :D

[Thunder]

I understand where you are coming from. Did you teach in one of the five boroughs? I'd expect them to be more litigious than the rest of the state.

No actually, upstate. NYC bedroom community. Lots of commuters.

[Harmony Aurore]

Once a "child" reaches high school - which this particular event took place at, obviously - I think it's time to start giving them a certain amount of credit as a sapient human being capable of some level of independent thought.

I'm not a big fan about "protecting" people from ideas or the risk of being upset, no matter what those ideas or risks are.



I was specifically talking about elementary school children.

[johenn123]

They handed out bibles in assembly at our school... we had this speech about how it's everbody's right to own a bible.

[WiccanGoddess]

Public high schools, elementaries, middle/junior levels...no, bibles cannot nor shouldn't be handed out on school property during school hours. As an extracurricular, yes, but in that case, all faiths/groups/religons/etc. are allowed equal cause/chance.

[WitchCraftWeaver]

Church and state are being kept seperate in this case - I'm assuming the Gideons are in front of, not on or in, the school, and they certainly aren't a government body. It might be distasteful, but it's legal.

The school's forbidding other groups from doing the same is illegal, however.

Must have read the OP wrong. I got the impression they were on school property. Guess that's what I get for reading message boards before my coffee kicks in. ;)

[AoibhellFaeryMoon]

I remember in elementary school they passed out those little red bibles. Took them home, my parents threw them out. They had no interest in someone else teaching us religion.

In high school we had "World Religions" classes. Some Christians took it, hoping to proselityze (sp? to early....). The teacher would have NONE of that. He told them that if they wanted to do that to attend a Christian school...we were here to learn about ALL religions (he even taught about Wicca, which was cool).

In that case, it's good. But to only talk about one religion? That's bad. That's not educating, that's evangelizing.

[star_belfire]

Its a double edged atheme. It is neither right nor wrong.

Sure shocing your religon in peoples faces is wrong but as someone else said we live in a free country. About asking to have a booth about Wicca and not getting it IS wrong! If the Gideons can have a booth then so should anyone else who wants one.

I hated have people handing out bibles when I was in school, plus they singled me out as a "witch" anyway and I don't mean that in the kind goddess following way either.

[demonique]

Heh. I've been handed out little bibles three times throughout elementary/junior/high school. This was not in a booth outside school grounds. This was in school. They interrupted class, and passed them out to every student while they sat in their desks. Public school, yes. Better? In 10th or 11th grade, in HISTORY class, I was forced to watch, for 2-3 days (however long that bloody movie was), that stupid Jesus Christ video the Mormons were handing out to everyone. That was "history". Oh yes. Lovely, isn't it? I was a Christian at the time, and I still thought it was total bull. Though... this was all in a very small community, where, throughout gradeschool, on Tuesdays we (meaning, virtually all of gradeschool students, except for a handful) actually got out of class early to go to "Tuesday School" at the Luthern Church basement - which was really, just an hour-long Bible school. To my knowledge, they still do this here. I found it fun as hell as a kid. But then, I was a Christian, and who doesn't like to get out of school to go have cookies and listen to bible stories?

Now, as a pagan, and a liberal, recognize just how inherently uncool this is.

If the Gideons have a booth somewhere, on or off school grounds, I have few complaints, except for the fact that other religions seem not to be allowed in this case. That's a big no-no. Interrupting class? Another big no-no.

If this has caused major disruption, rather than just annoyance, it NEEDS to be taken up with the administration, and the school board, and then, if nothing gets resolved to some degree, higher still.

[kitsch]

That's just distasteful.
If students want information on Christianity (or any other religion) it's their responsibility to seek it out. It's not as if Bibles are hard to come by.

One wonders what would have happened if it were a Pagan group handing out books. Or an atheist group.

[Brightshores]

One wonders what would have happened if it were a Pagan group handing out books. Or an atheist group.

Or heavens forbid, Muslims passing out copies of the Qu'ran. I can only imagine the outcry.

[exodustruth]

Just to make it fair why doesn't someone pass out free copies of nietzsches the anti-christ. That should get them talking :D

*please don't take me seriously as you'd obviously be stooping to their level. Let the fools fight fire with fire and kill two birds in one blaze.

[Nitefalle]

First of all, were I you, I would print out a million copies of a one-page informational on whatever Pagan path you follow, be it Wicca, Asatru, CR, whatever, and just leave them everywhere around the school anonymously. Tell the Gideons you want to help, and stuff five in every Bible, lol.

But seriously, what really surprises me the most is that the school administration isn't afraid of a big fat law suit - schools are so scared of anything religious these days, they usually avoid it with a ten foot pole. I would get out next to the Gideons and start talking loudly about how a booth for Wiccans was denied, how it's unconstitutional that they are allowed to stand and hand things out while you were denied the right to educate people on your religion. Hand out ACLU pamphlets. That might scare the administration into at least listening to you.

[mystic_zoe]

i agree with what has been said. to me, it would be ok for them to hand out bibles if you could hand out information on your chosen pagan path. i would just keep complaining to the administration or the principle and keep requesting that there should be a booth for other religions. it isnt fair. when i was in primary school i had R.E. (religious edcation) which again was mainly to do with Christianity..i dont actuallu remember being taught about any other religion apart from maybe the Jewish religion and possible touched on Islam or something...it was a while ago lol....but anyway just keeping going on about it because it isnt fair..

xx

[Semele]

Bibles?! Oh no! Still better than most of the crap passed out in high schools.

Do the students have the right to refuse the bibles? Some kiddos may not have access to a bible elsewhere. My own son was watching religious tv and asked if we had a bible. Luckily I could say, yes several wanna read one? Rather than have to send him to school for one! LOL!

I don't think its worth getting too upset about unless it is forced bible study. The gideons gave us bibles at graduation. Mine was printed upside down and I loved that!

[serenarian]

I was given a Gideon bible when I started comprehensive school (the UK version of high school) - a long time ago now. I didn't think anything of it at the time, and it happens every year - they leave Bibles in hotel rooms as well. Obviously I've never used it, but to be honest thinking about it now, it's a very subtle form of evangelism. They give them out to 11 year-old kids, when most 11 year olds aren't even thinking about religion - and the school is a Christian school although not a denominational one. What I mean by that is that although it's a normal state school, assemblies often include some form of Christian prayer. People who were clearly of another religion were allowed to miss the assembly, but somehow I can imagine the reaction if I'd put my hand up at 11 and said 'Miss, I can't go to assembly because I'm Pagan.'

[dragoncrone]

Whenever I'm on a road trip I stick a few random tarot cards into the Gideon Bible...:hahugh:

[Birdy]

I found a Gideon Bible in the drawer of a hotel room when I was eight years old. I read up to the point where God makes chidbirth painful for women in order to punish them for Eve's sin before I finally put it down, having decided that this God was evil and the story nonsense. I wouldn't worry about conversions.

[Meadhbh]

I don't think its a good ideal, and not just because its a bible their handing out. There's this little thing called seperation of church and sate last time I checked. They shouldn't be able to pass out anyone's holy book at a high school.

[starfire]

I agree, with this, if this is a public school then I don't get it. Heck they won't let someone who has a Catholic background teach sex because my they may say one option is not doing it. Even though the teach everything else including information about prevention,disease, parents around here through a hissy fit just because the person had that background. So I wonder how a public school would allow this.

A private christian school I can see using it to discuss world religions, but even they are not going to allow strangers like this on their property. At least not at the school my son went to. This is just strange. I wouldn't want it, nor would I allow it.

Funny thing is, now that I think about it. When I was in highschool 30 years ago, I remember someone doing that. I just ignored him the same way I ignore other people handing out stuff or wanting stuff in front of stores. I hate that. If I want to see what you have, I will come to you, I hate being approached when shopping. Not sure why but it REALLY bothers me. I grew up in a hippie artsy town where people panhandled kids as well as adults it still bothers me.

[Maelli]

I believe that information should be available to those who seek it. If the Gideons are to have a booth on the campus, they should remain at the booth and let seekers come to them. I also believe that all faiths should be granted the same consideration. Wiccan, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Muslim, Zoroastrian, and so forth.
I totally agree.

[wolf]

There's this little thing called seperation of church and sate last time I checked.

No, there isn't.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Nitefalle]

Okay....separation of church and state DOES NOT mean that people are not allowed to have any religious-type book in a public / governmental establishment, such as a school or your local house of representatives, etc. They are allowed to be there and there is nothing illegal about that.

What that DOES mean is that no govermental/civic body can either regulate religious bodies / establishments, nor can they endorse one over the other. It is perfectly legal for people to be talking about Christianity in a public school (so long as it isn't a teacher proselytizing students) as long as it is not to the exclusion of other religions - they have to let everyone have a turn, or no one have a turn.

[HeathenMaiden]

I voted Yes but only if they let people seek them up, it shouldn't have to be forced upon students nor shoved down their throats. That goes both ways. Buf if Pagans (or other religious beliefs) aren't allowed to set up information booths or hand out papers/fliers/books then the Christian group shouldn't be allowed either. Everything is so biased in America *shudders*

[River]

That made me throw up a little in my mouth.

I would cause a ruccus if that happened at my school.

Maybe start a petition?

[Xirian]

I feel that is should be one way or the other, in that, if the pledge of allegience, and christian symbols, holidays, and the Christian spin that is placed on many things in a school are allowed, then these people and any other folks religious information should be allowed to be passed out in front of the schools.

-or-

That nothing religion-related should be allowed at the school at all. Nothing that mentions the word God, no teachers mentioning their religions, no Christian holidays, Nothing.

But I really don't see the latter happening any time soon.

I remember (growing up as a JW) all the things we had to avoid in school simply because it had to do with a different God than what we worshipped. Those are all the things that should not be taking place in school, which includes Christmas, Easter, pledge of allegience, any religious spin what so ever, if one feels nothing about religion should be allowed in the schools.