Rus, Varangians, East Vikings

[Hærfest Leah]

There is two parts to this post.

#1 I know that in Norse literature there is little surviving evidence of moon worship but I've become very interested in the rare luna/crescent-moon pendants that are found in north western Russia (Staraya Ladoga, Ladoga Lake area) & Poland. Usually these pendants are called luna, lunula, lunulae or lunnik. (This research sprung by the antique luna pendant I bought)

You can see museum replicas here at:

http://www.ragweedforge.com/VikingMedallions.html
3 examples

http://www.urweg.com/list/pendants_t.html
3 examples

I've learned some on the people from the Staraya Ladoga area from:
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/varangians.shtml
http://www.oldladoga.spb.ru/eng/history/
http://feefhs.org/ru/asrnh/staraia.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladoga
http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title7.htm#32 (in Poland)
(With more pictures of luna pendants)

#2 The influence the Vikings had on this area with it being an important trade post. Apparently there is a large 9th-century funerary barrow in Novgorod Oblast, reminiscent of the mounds at Old Uppsala which the locals named Rurik's Grave.

This area has a lot of connecting history with Velikiy Novgorod. Novgorod is the most ancient Slavic city recorded in Russia.

I found a good 31 pg PDF file online titled HN_olga_ingegerd if any of you can find it. I came across it looking for more pics of these luna pendants (pg 11) and there's a picture of a necklace with thor's hammers on it (pg 22) that were found in a grave I believe.

Here's the link if it will open...
http://www.historiska.se/download/HN_olg...gegerd%20PDF%22

Anyays I didn't know if anyone on here knew more about these pendants, why their so rare and what their significance probably was?

I assume that this topic is still within our area of study for Heathenry? I thought I read somewhere about one of the cities mentioned above as being known as the 1st heathen city but I can't find it now.

[Carla O'Harris]

In all likelihood, I have access to a greater amount of knowledge about Mani than most people in Asatru, so if you're interested, you can contact me, but given that my knowledge does not match common prejudice, I'm not yet ready to publicly expose this to other's ridicule and prejudice. Suffice it to say that both Sol and Mani were extremely important.

This can be gleaned in four ways without my supplementary information :

1. Caesar indicates that the gods he was able to find out about were confined to the Sun, the Moon, and Vulcan. Obviously stories about the sun and the moon were very important, and featured prominently in Germanic worship.

2. Tacitus indicates the importance of the moon to the meeting of the Thing. The Thing was the most important social-political meeting of the folk.

3. The Church, in combatting heathenism all over Europe (which had been mainly Germanized through the Migrations), had constant injunctions against worshipping the sun and the moon.

4. The large amount of moonlore in Germanic folklore (planting by moon, etc.).

[Hærfest Leah]

In all likelihood, I have access to a greater amount of knowledge about Mani than most people in Asatru,...

That could be debatable by some.


....so if you're interested, you can contact me, but given that my knowledge does not match common prejudice, I'm not yet ready to publicly expose this to other's ridicule and prejudice. Suffice it to say that both Sol and Mani were extremely important.

But since this evidence exists (and it's not a secret) I don't see why anyone would ridicule you.


This can be gleaned in four ways without my supplementary information :

1. Caesar indicates that the gods he was able to find out about were confined to the Sun, the Moon, and Vulcan. Obviously stories about the sun and the moon were very important, and featured prominently in Germanic worship.

Yes that by Caesar I know to be " reckon among the gods those only whom they see and by whose offices they are openly assisted--to wit, the Sun, the Fire-God, and the Moon...." listed in the De bello Gallico, VI, 21

Caesar also said it was thought best to fight a battle on the new moon.

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/religious020.php


2. Tacitus indicates the importance of the moon to the meeting of the Thing. The Thing was the most important social-political meeting of the folk.

Yeah in his Germania, and then the place-names compounded with Mani in Landnamabok like Manaberg (Moon Mountain), Manafell (Moon Cliff).


3. The Church, in combatting heathenism all over Europe (which had been mainly Germanized through the Migrations), had constant injunctions against worshipping the sun and the moon.


Yes this is referred to I've seen with the Anglo-Saxon Aecerbot & the laws of King Canute of England states that " it was special heathenism to worship the sun & the moon."


4. The large amount of moonlore in Germanic folklore (planting by moon, etc.).

Also like marriages, slaughtering animals & cutting wood.

Baker, Folklore and Customs of Rural England
Grimm Teutonic Mythology
Opie and Tatum, A Dictionary of Superstitions
Hoffmann, Folklore of the Pennsylvania Germans
Naturalis Historia

The invocation of the moon appears in connection with seidhr according to Stromback.

Winterfylleth (October)
This is the time when the end of summer and start of winter is to be celebrated. The name Winterfylleth means winter full moon, so it is appropriate to celebrate this time on the rising or sighting of the first full moon of that month. Honour and praise should be given to the gods and goddesses for comfort and protection through the coming winter months, especially that of Thunor, for his strength during such times.
http://www.normannii.org/guilds_lore/calendar.htm

[Hærfest Leah]

Can I get some Heathen input on the Varangians? Something I've noticed when it came to the jewelery is that the small amount of luna pendants that were found, were only by the Varangians and I haven't heard of any being found or used by other Scandinavians or Germanic tribes?

Do you feel the Varangian Rus are at the edge of our Heathen studies since they sort of disolved into the Slaves or should they still be a central point of focus just as the rest of the Germanic peoples?

I did find some links on them and their religious practices.

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/rus.html

The Rus in Ibn Fadlan’s time were followers of the pagan Scandinavian gods. He describes their burial practices, involving animal and human sacrifice, and the funeral pyre of a chieftain in his longship. One Rus explained to him that cremation was much better than the Muslim custom of burial, saying “We burn him in fire in a moment, and he goes at once to paradise.” (Ibid.) Ibn Fadlan also describes the Rus habit of imbibing great quantities of nabid, an unspecified alcoholic drink, and said that they were often found dead still grasping a beaker of it.

The Rus were also known as Varangians - a term which is thought to come from a Norse word meaning those who join in an oath, probably to share the takings of their trading. It was later extended to mean the Norsemen of Russia as a group, and came to include Slavs, Anglo-Saxons and others.

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ibn_fdln.shtml

[Carla O'Harris]

That could be debatable by some.

With all due respect, how the f*ck could they debate it? They don't even know what I know!!!




But since this evidence exists (and it's not a secret) I don't see why anyone would ridicule you.

Because it has been my overwhelming experience that Asatruars are amongst the most close-minded people on the planet.

No offense to you personally, of course. But Asatruars make a habit of regularly chasing out anyone with interesting ideas or a novel approach. I have seen it happen again and again.

So as I said, if you're interested, you can apply to me personally, and I'd be willing to dialogue. But I am not going to throw pearls to swine.

[mol]

So as I said, if you're interested, you can apply to me personally, and I'd be willing to dialogue. But I am not going to throw pearls to swine.

MOL MODE

Calling other members swine is not very respectful. Refrain from doing that.

[Carla O'Harris]

Ridiculous. It is a quotation from Jesus, so speak to Jesus about it, not me.

My point is that I am not going to share things with people who cannot appreciate them, and who are, moreover, going to attack the information and attack me for so doing. That's my entire point. I wasn't calling anyone in particular "swine". It is a proverbial saying.

[Hærfest Leah]

My point is that I am not going to share things with people who cannot appreciate them, and who are, moreover, going to attack the information and attack me for so doing.

:idea: Then from now on stay out of Heathen/Asatru (since that's who you have the problem with) related topics and you can avoid the whole situation. And I am not being rude, it's a way of solving the problem.

Now can we get back to my actual thread.

[mol]

Ridiculous. It is a quotation from Jesus, so speak to Jesus about it, not me.

I didn't see any quotations and, to my knowledge, Jesus is not a member here...so I don't think he typed it out.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/faq.php?faq=mw_faqs#faq_rules

Review the current Rules and Guidelines.

[Mjollnir]

EDIT: Why bother...............

[Mjollnir]

Can I get some Heathen input on the Varangians? Something I've noticed when it came to the jewelery is that the small amount of luna pendants that were found, were only by the Varangians and I haven't heard of any being found or used by other Scandinavians or Germanic tribes?

Do you feel the Varangian Rus are at the edge of our Heathen studies since they sort of disolved into the Slaves or should they still be a central point of focus just as the rest of the Germanic peoples?

I did find some links on them and their religious practices.

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/rus.html


http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ibn_fdln.shtml



Northvegr has some stuff.................
http://www.google.com/search?q=varangian&domains=www.northvegr.org&sitesearch=www.northvegr.org

[Carla O'Harris]

:idea: Then from now on stay out of Heathen/Asatru (since that's who you have the problem with) related topics and you can avoid the whole situation. And I am not being rude, it's a way of solving the problem.

Now can we get back to my actual thread.

Fine. You be deprived of the knowledge. Your loss.

[Hærfest Leah]

Northvegr has some stuff.................
http://www.google.com/search?q=varangian&domains=www.northvegr.org&sitesearch=www.northvegr.org

Thanks & have a _wedgie_

[Malcolm]

I forgot how much fun the Heathen threads could be here. They go like this...

"Hey I have a question..."

"Oh yea, well you're stupid so shut up."

"No I'm not!"

"Yes you are!"

well, you can see where I'm going with this...what a happy tribal people....:nyah:

Edit: wrong "your"

[Hærfest Leah]

Oh Malcom, I'll agree you are right. That happens a lot of the time, too much in my book. I'm all for the calm discussions and depending on the Heathen forum your on you may encounter it more or less.

And not to get too off topic here: One forum I've been on is Asatru Lore (asatrulore.org), it can be an informative board but it's full of attitude & arguing. Now that is a board that can support the "Heathens are close-minded, mean spirited & just every source to the letter" stereotype. I swear some of them must actually break out in hives if they get near a Wiccan or fluffy Neo-Pagan.
Anyone looking for a good argument should take your arse over there and see what you come back with. MW Heathens are NOT that bad which is why I prefer to post here although we don't have that many Asatru discussions.

[Malcolm]

Eh, I was just poking fun at us heathens. We're a funny lot most of the time. If there is anything a heathen tends to take to seriously it is themselves. I'm guilty of it too. :cheers:

[Hærfest Leah]

:nyah:

[Rick]

I've been told that there are only two rules of Heathen discussions:

1. You're doin' it wrong

2. You're not the boss of me

http://bestsmileys.com/oneofakind/9.gif

[Malcolm]

I've been told that there are only two rules of Heathen discussions:

1. You're doin' it wrong

2. You're not the boss of me


Sounds about right :viking:

[KellyP]

Can I get some Heathen input on the Varangians? ... Do you feel the Varangian Rus are at the edge of our Heathen studies since they sort of disolved into the Slaves or should they still be a central point of focus just as the rest of the Germanic peoples?

I have nearly finished reading A Brief History of the Vikings by Jonathan Clement (Carroll & Graf, 2005). In his well-presented material, the author includes an entire chapter on the exploits of Vikings, Russians and Varangians entitied "The Road East". From there, pages 100-103 specifically mention the establishment of the Swedes at Lake Lagoda and the finding of Norse jewelry in the burial sites there. Perhaps you can find a copy of the material and it will shed light onto your search.

For my nickel, I would guess those traders and raiders that settled in the area brought their religious beliefs along. It would still be a few generations before Christianity reached the area thanks to Helga (aka St Olga) and finally to her grandson Vladimir's conversion from Thor to Eastern Orthodoxy as a means of securing a marriage to Princess Anna of Constantinople.

[Hærfest Leah]

I have nearly finished reading A Brief History of the Vikings by Jonathan Clement (Carroll & Graf, 2005). In his well-presented material, the author includes an entire chapter on the exploits of Vikings, Russians and Varangians entitied "The Road East". From there, pages 100-103 specifically mention the establishment of the Swedes at Lake Lagoda and the finding of Norse jewelry in the burial sites there. Perhaps you can find a copy of the material and it will shed light onto your search.

For my nickel, I would guess those traders and raiders that settled in the area brought their religious beliefs along. It would still be a few generations before Christianity reached the area thanks to Helga (aka St Olga) and finally to her grandson Vladimir's conversion from Thor to Eastern Orthodoxy as a means of securing a marriage to Princess Anna of Constantinople.

Thanks so much for your reply, I found that book on amazon just now. And now that I look in my new book The Vikings (http://www.amazon.com/Vikings-Voyagers-Discovery-General-Military/dp/1846030870/sr=1-11/qid=1161493370/ref=sr_1_11/002-9423451-1955236?ie=UTF8&s=books)there is a section on the Rus, Russia & the Varangian Guard in it also. This book just came out in June 06. I haven't started it yet but will here as soon as I finish the Saga of the Volsungs.

[Ulfurskona]

My 2cents...not that pennies are worth much anymore...

I'm of the opinion that while I can see some sense in using primary source material to reconstruct the basics of the religion, I cannot see sticking to them like gorilla glue as many are want to do, simply because so much is fragmented or missing. While I know it will get me blasted in some corners of the world, I do hold to various UPG's, simply because it's what I know, and what I feel is correct based on my experiences. If its likely to cause major contention however, I keep them to myself and learn what I can from folk who are none the wiser about my personal idiosyncrasies.

That being the case, I think it would be entirely appropriate to glean information from "secondary" sources, such as other people/cultures that may have been influenced at one time or another by the Norse.

I spend a lot of time reading about the folk beliefs and various mythology type information that come from the Orkney Islands as well for the same reason. They shared many similar beliefs in assorted wights and were greatly affected by the scandinavian beliefs.

[Torulf]

Cheers mate, I looked around a bit and this is what I got.
Your moon might have had something to do with the new year or half a year. So it might be related to time in some way. This I found in a site about coins.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/s27viking/10saga3.htm
Its in swedish though. I found more support for that theory in another article related to funerals. The half moon is mentioned as a find in several graves. It is said to represent the timespan of half a year.
I do not know if you found this useful at all but I hope so.

Good luck to ye =)

[Rick]

Cheers mate, I looked around a bit and this is what I got.
Your moon might have had something to do with the new year or half a year. So it might be related to time in some way. This I found in a site about coins.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/s27viking/10saga3.htm
Its in swedish though. I found more support for that theory in another article related to funerals. The half moon is mentioned as a find in several graves. It is said to represent the timespan of half a year.
I do not know if you found this useful at all but I hope so.

Good luck to ye =)
Hmm... that's very interesting... gives me new thoughts on the rune Jera... might represent two crescent moons...

[S_Wodening]

My 2cents...not that pennies are worth much anymore...

I'm of the opinion that while I can see some sense in using primary source material to reconstruct the basics of the religion, I cannot see sticking to them like gorilla glue as many are want to do, simply because so much is fragmented or missing. While I know it will get me blasted in some corners of the world, I do hold to various UPG's, simply because it's what I know, and what I feel is correct based on my experiences. If its likely to cause major contention however, I keep them to myself and learn what I can from folk who are none the wiser about my personal idiosyncrasies.

That being the case, I think it would be entirely appropriate to glean information from "secondary" sources, such as other people/cultures that may have been influenced at one time or another by the Norse.

I spend a lot of time reading about the folk beliefs and various mythology type information that come from the Orkney Islands as well for the same reason. They shared many similar beliefs in assorted wights and were greatly affected by the scandinavian beliefs.

It is perfectly okay to rely on UPG as long as one does not try to pass it off as lore. However, and this has been my experience, most folks do not realize how much has survived and therefore wind up using UPG for something that they could have found. I strongly disagree with this and feel that folks should study for two to three years before ever coming up with UPGs for this reason.

Welga!
Swain

[Ulfurskona]

Thats because "most folks" (whoever those ubiquitous, yet always unidentifiable, folk are) don't know their a** from a hole in the ground. "Most folk" I know, are well aware that what they know is UPG and in some cases *supported* though not necessarily lore based personal gnosis. Neither group, to the best of my knowledge, actually pass (or attempt to pass) their knowledge off as lore. Some do yes, but more often than not, belong to that aformentioned group of geographically challenged people.

Whether or not to go based solely on traditions that are already existant, or how much and how long to study, are sort of moot. "Two or three years" is no more or less arbitrary than the popular "year and a day". Some of us learn more rapidly than others, some of us learn slowly. Some people don't know how to read...so would you deny them their ability and need to follow a certain path because they are incapable of absorbing dry academic texts beyond their own educational level? I think not.

As to how much survived, that is precisely why I spend so much time burying my face in books and my head in various cultural mythologies and practices. Its impossible to know just how much survived unless you are willing to look in places outside the norm.

[Malcolm]

As to how much survived, that is precisely why I spend so much time burying my face in books and my head in various cultural mythologies and practices. Its impossible to know just how much survived unless you are willing to look in places outside the norm.

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