A stupid question I need answered

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

I know this is a stupid question, and I already know the answer but I need it from bigger names. The Witches council wrote up the 13 princapls of of basic Witches belief. 13 core beliefs that what, 98% of Witches believe?? Well I have this one person trying to tell me that they were not Witches at all they were Wiccans, and they were only talking about Wiccans. Now myself I see no differece really between Wiccans and Witches. I know there are one or two differences, but thats not my question. the 13 beliefs, were writtin as a basic core to let people know how "real", or not hollwood Witches act, right? I think so. But then again I could be wrong. So that is why I post my question here. I just need prof that it was real Witches, and not really Wiccans that made up the council. BB, ERF

[Tanya]

This is complicated and often discussed on other threads.(And very much argued)

Wicca is a religion/philosphy with roots deep in history but unified by Gardener and containing an Anglo-Saxon falvour since Gardener was British.This said, most practitioners of Wicca recognize and honour that three faces of God and Goddess have many diferent names and in many different pagan traditions. How closely one must follow Gardener's tradition to be Wicca is a matter of constant debate.

Witchcraft is a more loose term, often people who call themselves witches practice Wicca (but defnately not all). Witchcraft is the Craft end of things.... while Wicca involves incantations and spellwork, many other traditions (this includes Santeria, Italian Traditions, Romanian Traditions, Irish, Romany, Norse, Celtic, Eyptian etc.) do as well, and these people also call themselves Witches.

Other practioners of the Craft are only interested in spellwork and particiape in no particular philosophic Goddess centered tradition at all. They may also call themselves "Witches"

So... in a nut shell... I would say the council IS made up of real witches, and they were trying to generalize from all the people who practice witchcraft, general philosphical beliefs we share in common.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

Thank you. I thought I was going nuts. I knew they were "real" Witches. But I just needed some one else to say it to prove to this person I'm debating with on another forum. She's driving nuts! LOL!

[Lunacie]

Back in the 70's when the Council of Witches was convened, most Wiccans indentified as Witches. Shortly after that other Witches began speaking out and letting it be known that Wiccans weren't the only ones entitled to use the label. There was quite a bit of a row over the issue, but eventually most Wiccans began publically identifying as Wiccan, although privately many still use the term Witch.

It is significant that the Council of Witches disbanded not too long after coming to an agreement on the 13 Principles. There is not, and should not be, one central authority as to what is or isn't Witchcraft or Wicca.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

You have a point here. I do think that there needs to be some core standerds as what makes a Witch a Witch, and Wiccan, a Wiccan. Although I see little Difference between the two. But I would really like to know, the 13 set beliefs wrote down by the council in '74, they were talking about Witches, and not meaning to include Wiccans?

[Lunacie]

You have a point here. I do think that there needs to be some core standerds as what makes a Witch a Witch, and Wiccan, a Wiccan. Although I see little Difference between the two. But I would really like to know, the 13 set beliefs wrote down by the council in '74, they were talking about Witches, and not meaning to include Wiccans?

There are some core standards that Wiccans who have recieved any training generally agree on - there's a thread around here from a couple of months ago where several of us posted our core standards and found we agreed on about 8 things.

I'm a Wiccan who practices Witchcraft, and there are a lot of people who follow various religions and practice Witchcraft in addition but primarily follow the dogma and mores of the primary religion. Then there are the people who say they are Witches - plain and simple - and they may or may not have a set of core standards. Maybe one of them will let us know?

I think that the Council of Witches was referring mainly to Wicca, but there wasn't as much reconstructionist religion being talked about or taught in the 70's, so the Council hoped they were promoting some standards for all Pagans, but primarily for Wiccans. This is just my take on the situation - I didn't come into Wicca until the late 80's myself - and I could be wrong.

[Tanya]

I am curious... who are the 'unreal' witches? Can you see though them or something??

:)

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

I mean real Witches, in not Wiccans. I've been beaten over, and over the head eith the term Wiccan so much the past two days, if I hear it again, I'm gonna shit myself!!! LOL!

[Ben Gruagach]

One other important detail to remember is that the Council that put together the list of 13 principles was The American Council of Witches. They even state in the principles (in #11) that they are really only speaking on behalf of themselves, a group of American witches.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_stat1.htm has a blurb about the history of the Principles of Wiccan Belief and lists them for anyone who isn't sure what we're talking about here.

[Lunacie]

Too many threads on Wicca lately. I know I made the distinction between American Wicca and European Wicca in one of them, but I guess it wasn't this one. Thanks Ben. ;)

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

I know it was american Witches, for the person I'm dealing with, that will work.

[MankyCat]

Well... I can tell you that I'm definitely not Wiccan. I don't follow their beliefs or sects. I don't necessarily disregard their beliefs or experiences. A lot of it could be useful (and have been), but I don't follow the same rules. I call myself a Witch because there's no better term for it that I've found as of yet, even though the term itself sometimes gives the wrong impression. (Most people think something more akin to wiccans and less akin to what I do and believe... sometimes I think the older concept with the haggard old witch hermet in the woods that all those fairy tales speak of is closer... though I don't eat children or anything like that. :hahugh: ) I've had a goodly number of Wiccans try to chastise me or b***h me out or even argue at me because of what I believe. (The only reason I single out Wiccans here is because most of the pagans that have done this were Wiccan... but I have nothing against them as a whole and have met a good number that I have great respect for.)

As for the Principles... looking them over... Some of the principles apply to various religious paths, both "pagan" and mainstream. Some of them just left an odd taste in my mouth. I wouldn't say I follow these in the way they are described, except the ones that have the "Duh" factor (which are the ones that apply to more paths than that of Wicca, "Paganism", and/or Witchcraft).

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

Ok. I have a better understanding now. I'm just about to blow with this person though. :atantrum: She just won't drop that Witches do have some core beleifs and Witches did not branch off from Wiccan beleifs. :atantrum: I just wanna shit!!!! LOL! I'm not only hot headed, I'm a volcano ready to go off!! I need more coffie!!

[MankyCat]

She just won't drop that Witches do have some core beleifs and Witches did not branch off from Wiccan beleifs.


What do you mean by she won't drop that witches did not branch off from wiccan beliefs? Did you mistype this statement?

Because witches did not all branch off from wiccan beliefs. So if that's what she said, then she would be somewhat right.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

Ok, I think it might have been a typo. she said that Witches took all their beliefs from Wiccans. That's why the Witches council wrote up the 13 principles. I hope this clears up what I said before. BB, ERF

[Lark]

Ok, I think it might have been a typo. she said that Witches took all their beliefs from Wiccans. That's why the Witches council wrote up the 13 principles. I hope this clears up what I said before. BB, ERF

If you're going to state that I said something I wish you would correctly state what I said. What you typed in this message bears no resemblance to what I posted to you.

In my post to you I told you that all WICCANS are beholden to Gerald Gardner for creating modern Wicca. And that WICCANS trace their roots back to him. I said this because YOU were insisting that American Wiccans owed nothing to Gardner or to British Wicca.

I said absolutely NOTHING about traditional Witches taking their beliefs from Wicca. In fact, I have pointed out to you on more than one occasion that traditional WITCHES can be of any religion or no religion at all. Their beliefs and practices may or may not be the same as those practiced by Wiccans.

I also pointed out to you the common assertion that while all Wiccans may be Witches, not all Witches are Wiccan.

And as I have also pointed out to you on several occasions, the American Council of Witches was composed entirely of Wiccans and the principles you keep quoting are the "Principles of Wiccan Belief". They called themselves the American Council of Witches because back in 1974 Wiccans were more apt to use that term for themselves rather than Wiccan. Look in your Buckland if this is still a question for you, it's on page 229. Those principles were meant to cover what Wiccans believed, and not necessarily what traditional Witches might believe.

I think that your confusion lies in trying to make Wiccan and traditional Witch be the same thing. and they are not.

I would suggest that you might want to go back and reread my posts to you more carefully to see where your misunderstanding of what I have been saying may lie.

-Lark-

[Lunacie]

Ok. I have a better understanding now. I'm just about to blow with this person though. :atantrum: She just won't drop that Witches do have some core beleifs and Witches did not branch off from Wiccan beleifs. :atantrum: I just wanna shit!!!! LOL! I'm not only hot headed, I'm a volcano ready to go off!! I need more coffie!!

I don't think there is any one central authority for Witches anymore than is for Wiccans but there may be a core set of beliefs and practices that apply to all of the Witch traditions.

Witches and Wiccans are related in many ways and share some similar roots, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that either one branched off of the other.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

I do think your right. But to say that the council was made up of nothing but Wiccans, and none of them were Witches at all is a little far out there.

[Ben Gruagach]

I do think your right. But to say that the council was made up of nothing but Wiccans, and none of them were Witches at all is a little far out there.

If this other person you were discussing this is Lark, you've seriously misunderstood most of the major points.

Take a deep breath, take another deep breath, and then take one more deep breath to try and clear your head. You're not reading what was said and are getting worked up over things that weren't said.

[Lunacie]

I do think your right. But to say that the council was made up of nothing but Wiccans, and none of them were Witches at all is a little far out there.


I do think the council was made up of Wiccans, AND I think that those Wiccans were also Witches. ;)

But then, I think that Witchcraft is part of being a Wiccan, eh.

[RainInanna]

I think the question to be asked of the individual mentioned in the first post is simply "if Wiccans are not also Witches, what do you feel Witches are?". Seems like a semantics argument here, where someone needs clarification on how terms are being used. In the past the terms were used interchangeably, now not so much. We can argue until we're blue in the face what differentiates them now and then, but if you want to understand why this person disagrees, ask them to clarify what their opinion is.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

I think it is reall simple. Wicca was started by Gardner in the 50s. Witchcraft as been around for thousands of years. It is not a question of meaning. It is a question of, why the heck do I even bother. I don't get how a council of WITCHES would be Wiccans, and call themselfs Witches. And not even bother to even have Wiccan used at all in the title, or in any of the princables.

http://www.spiritualnetwork.net/PaganTree/consil_am_witches.html Read this. It says Witches beleifs. Not WICCAN.

[Lunacie]

Yep, it's simple. Gardner didn't actually start a new religion, he formed a new witchcraft tradition based at least in part on an older witchcraft tradition.

Then he made it public by writing books and speaking out, and this led to people thinking that all witchcraft was the same as Gardner's tradition. Those who practiced other witchcraft traditions thought there should be a different name for Gardner's group to demonstrate that not all witches practice the same version. So those who followed Gardner's tradition and the other traditions that branched off from his began using the name Wicca.

Unfortunately, people are still confused about whether all Witches are Wiccans and whether all Wiccans are Witches.

[RainInanna]

I think it is reall simple. Wicca was started by Gardner in the 50s.

Well, I'm happy for you. Given how many dozens of arguments I've seen over the subject just on this forum in the past several years I have been a member, as well as in other places in the Pagan community, I don't think most "think it is reall simple". Whether it's "confusion" or "differing opinions from people who have the right to share them", that is the way it is and has been. The debate has and continues to rage on.

Many Wiccans prefer to use the term "Witch" even now, but even more so in the past. Many didn't see a difference between the terms, others didn't like the new term, others felt they needed to "reclaim" the word.


It is a question of, why the heck do I even bother.

I honestly don't know. I thought you might be interested to learn why others think differently. If you just wanted people to agree with you, some have done so. Personally I like to understand a person's opinion when they disagree with me.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

No not that. Just..I wonder that Wicca is another tradition yes. But it has a right to be diferent. But so many people just throw it with all Witcraft. It is not the same as Seax-Witchcraft, or Itailin-witchcraft, or even trad-Witchcraft. It has a right to be its own path. Not just another name for Witches. That's why I wonder why I bother.

[Lunacie]

Yep, an awful lot of people haven't looked past the book authors like SilverRavenWolf and her ilk, or past the authors of all those websites that simply copy other websites without doing any research. Many different traditions share some common beliefs and practices with Wicca, and many are radically different than Wicca and it's incorrect to lump them all together and assume that they're all like Wicca simply because it's the one you hear or read about the most.

There are plenty of Pagan religions that don't acknowledge a link with witchcraft, but the Wiccan religion did grow out of a previous witchcraft tradition.

[RainInanna]

Ah, thank you for clarifying. I think then we agree, Wicca isn't the lump sum of all forms of Witchcraft nor vice versa. I know some people use them interchangeably and that doesn't bother me, but it doesn't mean they are the same thing for everyone. I just wish everyone could respect everyone else's opinion on it at least, if we can't all agree.

[covenofkeys]

Hmmmm. ~is confused~
i guess there must be more than one Witches council then, {i have come to that conclusion after reading this thread.}
-the Witches council i know of is known as The Witches High Council, {W.H.C}and they are extremely secretive, and are not Wiccan,though indeed some of the Wiccan ideas and morals may have been assimlated into the way in which they are run now. Interesting indeed.

~goes away to ponder this thread in curiosity~

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

Hmmmm. ~is confused~
i guess there must be more than one Witches council then, {i have come to that conclusion after reading this thread.}
-the Witches council i know of is known as The Witches High Council, {W.H.C}and they are extremely secretive, and are not Wiccan,though indeed some of the Wiccan ideas and morals may have been assimlated into the way in which they are run now. Interesting indeed.

~goes away to ponder this thread in curiosity~

I never heard of this council. I would however like to know more of it.

[Lark]

Ah ha, finally! We are agreed that Wicca is simply one subset of Witchcraft. It was your insistence that all Witches followed the same belief structure as Wiccans that had them so riled up over on the Traditional Witchcraft boards.

But now that we understand where the differences lie is far easier to have a discussion that isn't at cross purposes.

You are still misconstruing one comment that I made though. I said that the American Council of Witches was made up of Wiccans..who are of course also Witches. But it did not include followers of Traditional Witchcraft because they would not have been able to come to any sort of agreement over the spiritual portions of the Principles since not all Witches follow a Pagan path or acknowledge God or Goddess. And that's why I keep trying to tell you that those Principles are rightfully the Principles of Wiccan Belief...again, just as Buckland says on page 229 of his Big Blue Book.

-Lark-

[covenofkeys]

I never heard of this council. I would however like to know more of it.

what exactly do you want to know? as i said, they are EXTREMELY secretive, however, i may be able to give some help on this, where i am permitted.
i cannot give you EVIDENCE as such, so please be advised of this fact.so it will be your perrogative to dis-agree.
do you still wish to know? and if so what ?

[Ben Gruagach]

-the Witches council i know of is known as The Witches High Council, {W.H.C}and they are extremely secretive, and are not Wiccan,though indeed some of the Wiccan ideas and morals may have been assimlated into the way in which they are run now. Interesting indeed.

Is that the group based in Salem MA USA?

[covenofkeys]

not to my knowledge-England.

[RainInanna]

Interesting, this council. Why do they call themselves the "Witches High Council" if they are so secretive as to be unknown to most Witches?

Forgive me my ignorance, I always think of a group that comes together for consultation, advice, deciding matters of doctrine, etc. when I think of "council". But they must use the term differently?

[covenofkeys]

lol-why is the sky called the sky?
i did not say they are UNKNOWN to most witches, more they are secretive.
secretive:by this basically is meaning that they keeping or intended to be kept secret from the knowledge of most people; opperating secretly, a mystery.
most people being i would assume the general public/ordinaires, etc......

lol-~thinks has said too much already...heads to the exit for a cigarette~

[RainInanna]

Uh, ok, I just thought if Ben G had never heard of them nor had I nor had the other poster in the thread, and you weren't sure if you should share info about them with the other poster, and I couldn't even find them by Googling, they were that secretive. My mistake. In that case, if they are not unknown, where can I learn more about them? I'm intrigued!

[covenofkeys]

[quote=covenofkeyswhat exactly do you want to know? as i said, they are EXTREMELY secretive, however, i may be able to give some help on this, where i am permitted.
i cannot give you EVIDENCE as such, so please be advised of this fact .so it will be your perrogative to dis-agree.
do you still wish to know? and if so what ?[/quote]

~smiles~
again i refer you to this. fire away.

[RainInanna]

Ok, back to my earlier thought, who are they and how can they be contacted for consultation, advice, deciding matters of doctrine, etc. Or, is that not their mission, and if so, what is? The American Council, as mentioned, provided the 13 principles, do they have a similar set of guidelines available? What kind of witches are they?

[covenofkeys]

whoa!!
ok.they are a grouping of both men and women. you do not contact them.they contact you, if it is necessary.i believe that there were supposed to be maybe 60 something members to this body. bear with...they presumably deal with important things i would think like :lets say if Covens were in argument for instance, they would deal with this,if a problem should arise,or if there were some changes to be made,they would deal with this too.then there are the Watchers, and the Elders etc.
i think their aim is to promote the ideas to the leaders of our ways, making decisions,taking charge over what goes. their word as far as i am concerned is law. they are above even me in authority.
for instance, if i were to be contacted by them, and i were to be informed that the WHC is on my back, i should be a little uneasy, because they have Watchers who keep eyes on all that goes on within the ways. the thing is, nobdy can be sure who is and who is not a Watcher. they would report things back to the WHC if necessary, and they in turn would take actions. an Elder would then be assigned to act on your behalf if a hearing is to take place.this is of course if you have done something wrong!! lol
there is one person i knew personally who met the WHC, that was my grandmother. thankfully, i have not come up against this body of people-yet. lol
i really cant tell you a whole lot more, other than in our Coven, it is a law to make two oaths, they are included somewhat within this. i do as i am told. lol we are witches all the same.
you think youre confused?! lol

>>now has brain ache...going to sleep, will return on the morrow.x i hope this helped a little more.x

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

I don't think I should have even asked this question. I hear dumber. and dumber things everyday. What Witch PAST the age of 12, is not on a Pagan path. Shit, I bet more teens, and pre-teen Witches know the Witchcraft is God, AND Goddess balanced, and that Witches honor nature. So right there Witchcraft is a Pagan path. I...I can't believe half the stuff I read anymore. People say Silver RavenWolf is messing the Craft up. We got people saying Witches are Wiccans, Wiccans ain't Witches, and the other half don't don't know their ass from their elbow. No wonder the world thinks we all so ****ed up! Not one person thinks for themselves. I read people here saying yeah the Witches council were Witches. Then Lark shows up, and then people go, oh no the Witches council were in fact Wiccans, I didn't know it was lark that you were talking to. Oh I see. If I was talking to bubba, they'd be Witches, but it was lark, so their Wiccans. I know they were Witches. They Called themselves Witches. Ya all know how to read!!! W I T C H! What does that spell? It don't spell Wiccan! Ya don't call yourself a Witch, and make princables for Witches, if your a Witch. I wouldn't. Why would people be that stupid?? A Witch is a Witch, a Wiccan is a Wiccan. We all got that know?? Just because they start with W's don't mean they're the same thing. BB, ERF

[Lunacie]

Not all Witches are Pagans, but Wiccans are Pagan. Yet Wiccans are generally Witches. Are ya really confuzzled now? :lol:

Do you understand that someone can be a Baptist and a Christian at the same time? One is a denomination and the other is the name for the entire belief system (i.e. religion). Some Christians practice witchcraft (even if they don't call it that).

It may help to think of Wicca and Witches and Pagans in that frame of reference.

Or not, it's hard to think clearly when you're upset and ranting.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

Witchcraft is it's own religion. And so is Wicca. Can you give them that? Can the Craft, The old religion be that? Wicca is its own religion. So is Witchcraft. Why is that so complicated? I understand that. And I'm.....dead tired

[MajorTal]

No it isn't that at all! Like Lunacie stated, it's like being part of a denomination. Main Kingdom :Pagan; Phyllum: witch; subphyllum : wiccan.
Main Kingdom: Pagan; Phyllum:witch; subphyllum : stregaria. And in some cases the lesson ends with the kingdom or it ends at the phyllum.
And Nightshade,certain orders are best left to those that know about them to begin with. To know, to will, to dare, to be SILENT.

[RainInanna]

Nightshade - ah, thank you for explaining. I have heard of similar orders in my years at MW. I'm not sure if it was the same one you mention but I know they exist, and if I remember correctly some of the members here were involved.

MajorTal - as an aside, I'm sorry, I don't see what the point is of refusing to speak of such groups aside from someone feeling elitist that they know something others don't. Nightshade didn't offer any personal or contact information, I don't see how it could be in any way harmful. If you wish to discuss further perhaps we should start a new thread, let me know what you think?

Elderravenfire - I like MajorTal's analogy there. Most people will agree that basically Wicca is in the same subclass as Stregheria, Green Witchcraft, etc., meaning they are all forms of Witchcraft. Wicca and Witchcraft are not the exact same thing, but they aren't entirely separated either.

Then again, I say "Most" because I know some disagree. In other words, don't worry yourself so much what the "right" answer is, there isn't one. Just learn about people's opinions and form your own.

[RainInanna]

By the way, if you really want to discuss more about what people think the differences are etc you should check out our Wicca forum at http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=222

[Ben Gruagach]

The "Witches High Council" sounds to me like it's just a collection of elders for a specific denomination (like Alexandrian Wicca.)

My intuition suggests to me that it's the sort of thing that Kevin Carlyon might have created as part of his whole claim to be the "King of Witches" (trying hard to follow in Alex Sanders' showman footsteps.)

In any case the authority of any group or council only extends to the people in their own groups or denomination. They really only speak for themselves and their own groups where their authority is recognized. That's one of the consequences of Wicca being built from day one with covens being autonomous!

[covenofkeys]

well ....good morning to you all! i seem to have missed quite a bit. LOL
not really knowing what to say...so i shall leave the thread here to the experts!!! Appologies for hijacking this thread with this.
take it easy.x

[RainInanna]

Ben - True about authority only being recognized so far. I was hoping it was a group like the American Council, as I'm fascinated by their work. Of course they still weren't "The Authority", but I think they had excellent guidelines.

[Lark]

***What Witch PAST the age of 12, is not on a Pagan path***

Quite a few of the actually. There are plenty of Witches that are Christian for instance. A good example of that are the Curanderos in Mexico. Some followers of Stregha are also good practicing Catholics. Some American and British Witches that I have met are also devout Christians and always have been.

One does not necessarily have to be Pagan to be a Witch.

-Lark-

[MankyCat]

Witchcraft is it's own religion. And so is Wicca. Can you give them that? Can the Craft, The old religion be that? Wicca is its own religion. So is Witchcraft. Why is that so complicated? I understand that. And I'm.....dead tired



Witchcrafts isn't necessarily a religion.

That would be like saying being Vegan is a religion. (Though for some, it might seem to be so, it isn't.) Same with Politics.

[Lunacie]

***What Witch PAST the age of 12, is not on a Pagan path***

Quite a few of the actually. There are plenty of Witches that are Christian for instance. A good example of that are the Curanderos in Mexico. Some followers of Stregha are also good practicing Catholics. Some American and British Witches that I have met are also devout Christians and always have been.

One does not necessarily have to be Pagan to be a Witch.

-Lark-

I was going to respond to that one as well, must have gotten distracted. You said what I was going to say though. :)

[RainInanna]

It's interesting how terms change as we all learn more.

Not so long ago at least some of those groups would not be considered witches by some people.

[Lunacie]

Witchcrafts isn't necessarily a religion.

That would be like saying being Vegan is a religion. (Though for some, it might seem to be so, it isn't.) Same with Politics.

Buddhism isn't technically a religion either, but it meets the definition in almost every way. Not everyone who practices witchcraft is doing it in a way that meets the definition of "religion" but there are certainly some Witches who do.

Ugh, Politics is "evil". ;)

[Ben Gruagach]

It's interesting how terms change as we all learn more.

Not so long ago at least some of those groups would not be considered witches by some people.

It's not that non-witches who happen to be magickal practitioners are being redefined as witches... although I do think some are. There have always been self-declared witches around (before, during, and after Gerald Gardner's time) who are not Pagans too.

[RainInanna]

I'm confused then. I thought when we had discussed this previously you yourself had pointed out the term Wiccan and Witchcraft were often used interchangeably in the past because for a time they were considered synonymous, as Wiccans felt they laid claim to reconstructing witchcraft.

As the world coven grows, we become aware of more types of witchcraft then we previously knew of.

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm confused then. I thought when we had discussed this previously you yourself had pointed out the term Wiccan and Witchcraft were often used interchangeably in the past because for a time they were considered synonymous, as Wiccans felt they laid claim to reconstructing witchcraft.

As the world coven grows, we become aware of more types of witchcraft then we previously knew of.

I did say that -- in the past people didn't make a distinction because they didn't know (or acknowledge) that there was one.

The community has grown quite a bit since then and non-Wiccan witches are much more public than they have been in the past. There is also a lot more historical and anthropological research that is available to the general public about witchcraft and magickal paths so it's getting harder and harder to justify the claim that Wicca=Witchcraft, that they are "merely" synonyms for the same thing, that all witches are Wiccans.

[RainInanna]

Right, we actually do agree then. For some reason I read your response the first time as disagreeing with what I said.

*rubs eyes* My fault, I need to log off for awhile ;)

[MankyCat]

Buddhism isn't technically a religion either, but it meets the definition in almost every way. Not everyone who practices witchcraft is doing it in a way that meets the definition of "religion" but there are certainly some Witches who do.

Ugh, Politics is "evil". ;)


That's why I said that "witchcraft isn't necessarily a religion". I know a number who feel it is, which is fine. For me, it's not. It's a way of life that is often used in conjuction with a set of religious beliefs. Hence how someone of a mainstream religion can still be a witch (my aunt was a Catholic and a witch).

Another example that would be more fitting to what I mean would be like saying Astrology or Herbology are religions.

But to those that feel witchcraft is a religion for them, more power to them. I have no qualms about that.

On politics... I agree. :hahugh:

[Xander67]

I dont think Witchcraft is a religion, it is an Art..
a way of life, the practice of magic (working with nature)

[covenofkeys]

I dont think Witchcraft is a religion, it is an Art..
a way of life, the practice of magic (working with nature)

yep in total agreement with ya there!

[Lunacie]

Well, that is certainly what it is for some witches.

For other witches it may be that... and more. It may be a way of connecting with the divine energies and working with them.

[Moondancer]

I don't think I should have even asked this question. I hear dumber. and dumber things everyday.

I hear ya! You might 9or might not) be amazed at some of the things I've heard over the past 35 years in the Craft - and it gets crazier every day.


What Witch PAST the age of 12, is not on a Pagan path. Shit, I bet more teens, and pre-teen Witches know the Witchcraft is God, AND Goddess balanced, and that Witches honor nature. So right there Witchcraft is a Pagan path. I...I can't believe half the stuff I read anymore.

But that isn't true of all forms of Witchcraft - just those that have adapted in things from Wiccan practice. The Witches of Zimbabwe and the Witches of India or Malaysia do not have the same practices, rituals, or beliefs that neopagan witches and Wiccans have, and gods forfend that you should call someone who practices a Native American spirituality (especially a Navajo/Dineh) a witch!



People say Silver RavenWolf is messing the Craft up.

I'll be among the first to state that I am not a big fan of Silver Ravenwolf. She has, in my opinion, caused a lot of harm with her books, especially those directed towards teens, such as Teen Witch. She has advocated lying to their parents, and as a parent, I cannot support that in the least. Two of my three daughters read Teen Witch, and could barely keep from hurling - the third refused to read it all after discussing with her sisters. here are a number of websites out there that detail much of this information.

For anyone who is a fan of hers, I would suggest that you read with a more critical eye, and don't just accept everything that she has to say as gospel. for that matter, don't take what ANY author has to say as gospel - do your own research. start with the bibliographies that these authors provide, look at the information in their footnotes and/or source notes, and read those works as well. and, if they don't include bibliographies or source/foot notes? they probably are not worth serious consideration to begin with and are likely pulling it all out of their @$$es!

Gwen Thompson, who was one of my Elders, once quoted one of her Elders, who had said: “The Craft view is that a book is only a man talking on paper and is no more accurate that the spoken word by the same man. Any man who talks for an extended length of time must make a few mistakes. No book, therefore, not even a college text, is 100% accurate. Also, no man has all the facts about any particular subject. There is a-ways something more to be told.. something the author did not know. I might only add that this applies to female authors as well."

Over the 30+ years since she wrote that, I've learned that it is a very true statement.


We got people saying Witches are Wiccans, Wiccans ain't Witches, and the other half don't don't know their ass from their elbow. No wonder the world thinks we all so huged up! Not one person thinks for themselves.

All too true in far too many cases, as I noted above. People take whatever Silver RavenWolf, Scott Cunningham, Douglas Monroe, Raymond Buckland, DJ Conway, Raven Grimassi and a host of other authors have published, and look no further than that, which is a discredit to all of them.

When I began in the Craft, the term Wiccan was rarely used - that came about in the late 70s and early 80s, largely becuase of the negative connotations of the term Witch. Fact of the matter is, however, that wicca (and its feminine form, wicce) is properly pronounced as "witchuh" and not as "wickuh". It follows the same linguistic permutation that another perfectly good Anglo-Saxon word did into modern English - bicce, which most of us know as bitch, a female dog.

Back in the 70s, there wasn't this mess of different traditions, it was generally accepted that you were either a witch or you were not, and back then it didn't matter much if you were a witch of the Gardnerian persuasion or family tradition or whatever. But then we started having outright frauds and predators latch on to the Craft as a quick way to sex, get people to give them lots of money and otherwise engage in cult-like behaviours, and people started demanding, yes, demanding, proof of their claims; so much so, that today, if someone claims to be Gardnerian, there are ways of verifying whether or not it is true - and the same goes for pretty much any other traditional path of Witchcraft or Wicca.


I read people here saying yeah the Witches council were Witches. Then Lark shows up, and then people go, oh no the Witches council were in fact Wiccans, I didn't know it was lark that you were talking to. Oh I see. If I was talking to bubba, they'd be Witches, but it was lark, so their Wiccans. I know they were Witches. They Called themselves Witches. Ya all know how to read!!! W I T C H! What does that spell? It don't spell Wiccan! Ya don't call yourself a Witch, and make princables for Witches, if your a Witch. I wouldn't. Why would people be that stupid?? A Witch is a Witch, a Wiccan is a Wiccan. We all got that know?? Just because they start with W's don't mean they're the same thing. BB, ERF

Well, as to the Council of American Witches - it was an alliance of American Wiccans from different traditions that was active in 1974 in an effort to define the principles of Wicca, and it failed miserably. Carl Weschcke, president of Llewellyn Publications, spearheaded the effort - and there were a lot of problems with it from day one. First, it was viewed as an attempt to justify Llewellyn author Lady Sheba's (Jessie Wicker Bell) claim to be Witch Queen of all America, which decidedly did not sit well with a lot of folk. There is a lot of history about Lady Sheba and her material that isn't widely known to a lot of people, but for those of us who have been around long enough, well -- let's just say we know where at least some of the bodies are buried.

Covenant of the Goddess (COG) ran into a lot of the same problems when we founded it in 1975 (Yes, I am one of the founding members of COG). You wouldn't believe how many hours of discussion and debate were taken up in deciding the wording We are agreed: that we worship the Goddess and recognize the Old Gods; that we are ethical persons, bound by the ethics of the traditional Laws of our religion; and that we recognize one another as being members of the same religion.

Not everyone there wanted to include "the Old Gods", and not everyone there wanted to exclude the God. That one sentence probably took up a good 4 hours...or more. There was also a lot of concern that COG was trying to set itself up to be an arbiter of who was or was not a Witch/Wiccan, and so several more hours were spent on We are also agreed that we are not the only members of our religion. If the members of a local congregation choose not to join this Covenant and the Church thus created, their choice creates no presumption that they are not members of our religion.
We are agreed further that the reality of our religion lies within each local congregation, of whatever Tradition, and that there is no sovereign authority in our religion outside each local congregation. Therefore, the local congregations which enter into this Covenant with one another cede to the Church thus created only as much sovereignty as the Church will need in order to function effectively as an instrument of their joint will.

Those three statements are 3/4 of the Preamble to the Charter of Covenant of the Goddess, one of the oldest Witchcraft/Wiccan organizations still in existence - and I do specify that is specifically Witchcraft and Wiccan, as it excludes Druids, Asatruar, and other Pagan/Heathens from it's membership, unless they also are either Witches or Wiccans.

Something that a good majority of the people who have come to paganism over the last 20-30 years are no longer taught is that the majority of the currently practiced pagan traditions (Asatru, Druidry, various "reconstructionist" groups, etc.) probably woud not exist if it were not for the Wiccan revival of the 50s and 60s, and even more recently, far too many people seem to be of the opinon that all of paganism is one big happy family - and that it's all pretty much the same thing.

It ain't. One of the reasons that we have the Asatruar and the Reconstrucitonists is that people were not satisfied by Wicca/Witchcraft. Druidry is another kettle of fish entirely - some branches, like ADF, are very recent in their creation; some like OBOD have a history that may go back a couple of hundred years to the neo-classical revival of the 19th century, but so far as anyone has been able to firmly establish, none of them have a history thqt is unbroken back to prehistoric or even ancient times - and that includes the family traditions as well (of which I am a part of one.)

This is getting long, and there's a lot more I could say on the subject, but for now I think I'll stop. If you have specific questions, ask; I'll do my best to answer.

regards,
Moondancer
Elder HP, Nemed Cuculatii, NECTW
Elder, Georgian Tradition
White Cord, NROOGD
Gardnerian 1st degree Initiate
Old Curmudgeon

[Moondancer]

Hmmmm. ~is confused~
i guess there must be more than one Witches council then, {i have come to that conclusion after reading this thread.}
-the Witches council i know of is known as The Witches High Council, {W.H.C}and they are extremely secretive, and are not Wiccan,though indeed some of the Wiccan ideas and morals may have been assimlated into the way in which they are run now. Interesting indeed.

~goes away to ponder this thread in curiosity~

Yes, there are several such Councils, and no, none of them are widely known. Few of them seem to have any interaction with the others, and most of the ones that I am personally aware of only have to do with their specific Traditions.

[elderravenfire@yahoo]

Thanks for your input. It helped A lot

[Aithne Cathasaigh]

Interesting, I remember the Council that came up with the 13 beliefs. When I first started formal training we were required to not only know them, but to write essays on the beliefs. But in more modern times the only Councils I've ever heard of is a High Priestess Council, and those are really really rare in our community.

Thanks for the info.

[Moondancer]

You're welcome. Sometimes hearing it from those "who were there" can help clarify the history of such things.

These days are not quite like the old days, when the pagan world was small enough that we actually did know everyone else who was around...in so many ways, it was easier then.

[SonicWylde]

I don't think I should have even asked this question. I hear dumber. and dumber things everyday. What Witch PAST the age of 12, is not on a Pagan path. Shit, I bet more teens, and pre-teen Witches know the Witchcraft is God, AND Goddess balanced, and that Witches honor nature. So right there Witchcraft is a Pagan path. I...I can't believe half the stuff I read anymore. People say Silver RavenWolf is messing the Craft up. We got people saying Witches are Wiccans, Wiccans ain't Witches, and the other half don't don't know their ass from their elbow. No wonder the world thinks we all so huged up! Not one person thinks for themselves. I read people here saying yeah the Witches council were Witches. Then Lark shows up, and then people go, oh no the Witches council were in fact Wiccans, I didn't know it was lark that you were talking to. Oh I see. If I was talking to bubba, they'd be Witches, but it was lark, so their Wiccans. I know they were Witches. They Called themselves Witches. Ya all know how to read!!! W I T C H! What does that spell? It don't spell Wiccan! Ya don't call yourself a Witch, and make princables for Witches, if your a Witch. I wouldn't. Why would people be that stupid?? A Witch is a Witch, a Wiccan is a Wiccan. We all got that know?? Just because they start with W's don't mean they're the same thing. BB, ERF


I am not god or goddess based, and I am a witch. I am a witch and I do not follow Wicca. I am a witch, and while i like nature, I do not do anything really to honor it. I am not a nature based witch, I am not a wicca based witch, I am not a god/goddess based witch. I am just a witch.

(I am sure this has been addressed but I felt a need to type that out)

[The Incense Dragon]

I am not god or goddess based, and I am a witch. I am a witch and I do not follow Wicca. I am a witch, and while i like nature, I do not do anything really to honor it. I am not a nature based witch, I am not a wicca based witch, I am not a god/goddess based witch. I am just a witch.

(I am sure this has been addressed but I felt a need to type that out)


Sorry that I have joined this discussion so late, after it appears to have run its course, but having read all of the posts here, and many, many more in other locations, I have to ask this question:

What is a witch?

I've read many rambling and even concise messages about who or what is not a witch, but what definition fits for a "witch". What makes someone fit with that label?

This is no passing question for me. It is related to a topic that I've been discussing for many years. Specifically, I've been looking for a universally accept definition of "Pagan". To date, the only universally agreed upon (and that's a relative term) is "A Pagan is someone who calls herself a Pagan." I've never been able to find another definition that more than 60% of people can agree upon.

So what is a "witch"? Based on reading this thread, it appears that it's the same definition as "Pagan".

Is a witch simply any person who identifies themselves as a witch?

-Carl

[Ben Gruagach]

Sorry that I have joined this discussion so late, after it appears to have run its course, but having read all of the posts here, and many, many more in other locations, I have to ask this question:

What is a witch?

I've read many rambling and even concise messages about who or what is not a witch, but what definition fits for a "witch". What makes someone fit with that label?

This is no passing question for me. It is related to a topic that I've been discussing for many years. Specifically, I've been looking for a universally accept definition of "Pagan". To date, the only universally agreed upon (and that's a relative term) is "A Pagan is someone who calls herself a Pagan." I've never been able to find another definition that more than 60% of people can agree upon.

So what is a "witch"? Based on reading this thread, it appears that it's the same definition as "Pagan".

Is a witch simply any person who identifies themselves as a witch?

-Carl

You're asking the perennial questions -- they are debated at great length any time a group of Pagans come together, and we rarely ever come up with anything like definitive answers.

That's why they say if you ask thirteen witches to define "witch" you'll get twenty or so different answers!

Please browse the various sections of the MysticWicks messageboard, especially the "New Pagans" and "Paths" sections, and you'll find these very questions discussed in great length in quite a few message threads. And if you go to other Pagan messageboards on the internet you'll find the same thing -- lots of debate over basic definitions!

[The Incense Dragon]

You're asking the perennial questions -- they are debated at great length any time a group of Pagans come together, and we rarely ever come up with anything like definitive answers.

That's why they say if you ask thirteen witches to define "witch" you'll get twenty or so different answers!



Precisely why I ask. Really more rhetorical than anything else, but still worth asking. I'm just curious to hear a definition from the people who have posted some of the interesting messages in this thread. When I see someone write that they don't recognize god or goddess, don't worship nature, don't see witchcraft as a religion and how absolutely anyone can be a witch, I have to wonder if the word has a definition at all. This is why "Wicca" is such an appealing path to some people. At least we can define what is "Wiccan". I feel that's why Wicca is the only Pagan religion (forgive me any Wiccans who feel they aren't Pagan or it isn't religion) that stands much of a chance with government recognition. It can be defined. Paganism cannot (apparently).

I've read so many definitions of Pagan and Witch that the terms have nearly become meaningless to me. It's only the clinging knowledge that I am a Pagan that keeps me asking. My dictionary defines a witch as "a person, especially a women, who professes or is supposed to practice magic". Although I've never considered myself a witch, I definitely fit that definition. If it's really that simple then I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Of course :hahugh: I understand it isn't that simple which is why I like to hear others define words like this for me. It fosters a much deeper understanding and appreciation of their perspective as well as their philisophical position. It makes them make more sense to me.

-Carl

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, if you want to wade into the definitions debates I'd recommend you surf over to any of these ongoing threads:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147804

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=47679

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=140521

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=140152

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=146097

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=139757

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=144456

I'm sure there are more if we do an actual search... these are just relatively recent threads that were easy to spot in various sections like "Just Pagan" and "Paths". (Note that there are three quite distinct sections for various types of witches in the Paths section alone!)

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=112470 is another thread that went into a lot of the nitty gritties of the debate. It's a long-closed thread though so you can't add to that particular one.

[Teresa]

Well, that is certainly what it is for some witches.

For other witches it may be that... and more. It may be a way of connecting with the divine energies and working with them.

I consider it to be my "form " of religion as I worship my ancestors and spirits and work with them in my practices. In this aspect it is my form of religion. It isn't really an organized religion though IMO. I just don't have the dogmas attached to my practices and beliefs that some organized religions have. I do follow a more nature based tradition though and most of my workings are in the form of folk magic, but not limited to just that.

[~Belladonna~]

Ha, well it just goes to show! When I found the 13 Principles it said 'The 13 Wiccan Principles' I later found out that it should of said 'Witches' or maybe even just 'The Principles' or '13 Principles'....

[Moondancer]

Well, if you want to wade into the definitions debates I'd recommend you surf over to any of these ongoing threads:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147804

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=47679

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=140521

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=140152

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=146097

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=139757

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=144456

I'm sure there are more if we do an actual search... these are just relatively recent threads that were easy to spot in various sections like "Just Pagan" and "Paths". (Note that there are three quite distinct sections for various types of witches in the Paths section alone!)

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=112470 is another thread that went into a lot of the nitty gritties of the debate. It's a long-closed thread though so you can't add to that particular one.

Ben, thank you for linking these. I'll be spending some time reading over the next few days it appears, just to see what others are saying on the subject.