Lesson 2 -- Black Magic?

[~Elise~]

This could result in a heated discussion--please keep things civil. Remember our rule - RESPECT

Black Magic--does it exist?

This is my point of view on things.
The definition I give my IRL students is that magic is the ability to change reality at will. Magic is like electricity. It is universal energy out there waiting to be tapped into. There is not white or black electric--there is no white or black magic. white and black magic get into having a value assigned to them. WE, as society, place that value.

This is just an excerpt from a very long article, That Old Black Magic, by Judy Harrow:

Saying "black" when we mean "evil" is nasty nonsense. In the first place, it reinforces the racist stereotypes that corrupt our society. And that's not all. Whenever we say "black" instead of "bad," we repeat again the big lie that darkness is wrong. It isn't, as people who profess to love Nature should know. Darkness can mean the inside of the womb, and the seed germinating within the Earth, and the chaos that gives rise to all truly new beginnings. In our myths, the one who goes down to the underworld returns with the treasure. Even death, to the pagan understanding, is well-earned rest and comfort, and a preparation for new birth. Using "black" to mean "bad" is a blasphemy against the Crone.

But even if we no longer speak of magic as "black" or "white," we still need to think and speak about the ethics of magic. Although black is not evil, some actions are evil. It simply is not true that anything a person is strong enough or skilled enough to do is OK, nor should doing what we will ever be the whole of the law for us. We need a clear and specific vocabulary that enables us to choose wisely what we will do.

We need to replace the word "black," not simply to drop it. Some Pagans have tried using "negative" as their substitute, but that turned out to be confusing. For some people, "negative" means any spell to diminish or banish anything. Some things - tumors, depression, bigotry - are harmful. There's nothing wrong with a working to get rid of bad stuff. "Left-handed" is another common term for wrongful practice, very traditional, but just as ignorant, superstitious and potentially harmful as the phrase "black magic" itself. So in Proteus we tried using the word "unethical." That's a lot better - free of extraneous and false implications - but still too vague. Gradually, I began to wonder whether using any one word, "black" or "unethical" or whatever, might just be too general and too subjective.

If ethical principles are going to survive the twin tests of time and temptation, people need to understand just what to avoid, and why. Even more important, they need a basis for figuring out what to do instead. Especially when it comes to projective magic.
Projective magic means active workings, the kind in which we project our will out into the world to make some kind of change. This is what most people think of when they use the word magic at all. Quite clearly, magic that may affect other people is magic that can harm. This is the basis of the proverb "a Witch who can't hex can't heal." Either you can raise and direct power, or you can't. Your strength and skill can be used for blessing or for bane. The choice - and the karma - are yours.

Just as some people feel that strength and skill are their own justification, others feel that any projective magic is always wrong - that it is a distraction from our one true goal of union with the Divine or a willful avoidance of the judgements of Karma. I think these attitudes are equally inconsistent with basic pagan philosophy.

We are taught that we will find the Lady within ourselves or not at all, that the Mother of All has been with us from the beginning. We can't now establish a union that was always there. All we can do, all we need to do, is become aware. Knowing what it feels like to heal and empower, again and again till you can't dismiss it as coincidence, is one of the most powerful methods for awakening that awareness. It makes no sense to say that the direct experience and exercise of our indwelling divinity distracts from the Great Work. Indeed, it is this intimate connection between our magic and our self-realization that our ethics protect. Wrongful use of magic will choke the channel. No short term gain could ever compensate for that.

The karmic argument against practical workings seems to me to arise from a paranoid and defeatist world view. Even if we assume that the hardships in this life were put there by the Gods for a reason, how can we be so sure that the reason was punishment? Perhaps instead of penance to be endured, our difficulties are challenges to be met. Coping and dealing with our problems, learning magical and mundane skills, changing ourselves and our world for the better - in short, growing up - is that not what the Gods of joy and freedom want from us?

One of the most radically different things about a polytheistic belief system is that each one of us has the right, and the need, to choose which God/desses will be the focus of our worship. We make these choices knowing that whatever energies we invoke most often in ritual will shape our own further growth. Spiritual practices are a means of self-programming. So we are responsible for what we worship in a way that people who take their One God as a given are not.

Think about this: what kind of Power actively wants us to submit and suffer, and objects when we develop skills to improve our own lives? Not a Being I'd want to invite around too often!

So it will not work for us to rule out projective magic completely; nor should we. Total prohibitions are as thoughtless as total permissiveness or blind obedience. Ethical and spiritual adults ought to be able to make distinctions and well-reasoned choices. I offer here a start toward analysing what kinds of magic are not ethical for us.

Black magic is magic done for the explicit purpose of causing harm to another person. Usually the reason for it is revenge, and the rationalization is justice. People who defend the practice of baneful magic often ask "but wouldn't you join in cursing another Hitler?"

For adults there is no rule without exceptions. If you think you would never torture somebody, consider this scenario: in just half an hour the bomb will go off, killing everybody in the city, and this terrorist knows where it is hidden.... It's a bad mistake to base your ethics on wildly unlikely cases, since none of us honestly knows how we would react in that kind of extreme. Reasonable ethical statements are statements about the behaviors we expect of ourselves under normally predictable circumstances.

We all get really angry on occasion, and sometimes with good cause. Then revenge can seem like no more than simple justice. The anger is a normal, healthy human reaction, and should not be repressed. But there's no more need to act it out in magic than in physical violence. Instead of going for revenge - and invoking the karmic consequences of baneful magic - identify what you really need. For example, if your anger comes from a feeling that you have been attacked or violated, what you need is protection and safe space. Work for the positive goal, it's both more effective and safer.

But not every other magician is ethical. Psychic attacks do happen. Should we not defend ourselves? Of course we should. Leaving ourselves open to psychic attack is no good example of the autonomy and assertiveness our chosen Gods expect. But first, how can we be sure what we are experiencing really is psychic attack?

The fantasy of psychic attack is often a convenient excuse that allows us to avoid looking at our own shortcomings. When lack of rest or improper nutrition is the cause of illness, or a project isn't completed on time because of distraction, it's a real temptation to put the blame outside ourselves. Doing this too easily betrays our autonomy just as badly as meek submission to attack does. Then, to compound matters, projected blame becomes an excuse for unjust revenge -- and that is baneful magic without excuse.

Once in a rare while, some fool really does try to throw a whammy. It's hard to predict when you might be targeted. Passive shields are always a good idea. Like a mirror, these are totally inactive until somebody sends unwelcome energy. Then a shield will protect you completely and bounce back whatever is being thrown. You may not even know consciously when your shield is working, but the result is perfect justice. Perfect justice; elegant and efficient. You won't hurt anybody out of paranoia or by mistake. And perfect protection, even though we do not have perfect knowledge.

So, baneful magic, besides being painful in the short run and crippling in the long run, is never necessary. There are better ways of self protection, and retribution is the business of the Gods.

Coercive magic is magic that targets another person to make them give us something we want or need. When most people think of the "Magic Power of Witchcraft," this is what they have in mind.

The spell to make the teacher give you a good grade, or the supervisor give you a good evaluation, the spell to make the personnel officer or renting agent choose you, the spell to attract that cute guy, all are examples of coercive magic.

So, what's wrong with high grades, a good job, a raise, a nice apartment and a sexy lover? There's nothing at all wrong with those goals. An it harm none, do what ye will. As long as nobody is hurt, go for it! But don't strive toward good ends by coercive means.

Are you beginning to think that magic is useless? Did I just rule out all the good stuff: love charms, job magic, spells for good grades? Not at all. It is not only ethical but good for you to do lots of magic to improve your own life. Whenever it works you will get more than you asked for - because along with whatever you asked for comes one more experience of your own effectiveness, your power-from-within.

Work on yourself and your own needs and desires without targeting other people. Then feel free! Ask for what you want. Visualize it and raise power for it and act in accordance on the material plane. "I need a caring and horny lover with a good sense of humor." "I want an affordable apartment near where my coven meets with a tree outside my window." "I need to be at my best when I take that exam next week." Fulfill your dreams, and sometimes let the Gods surprise you with gifts beyond your dreams.


So, what do y'all think? Let the discussion ensue....

Elise

[LadyWillow]

I've never felt magic was neither black nor white, but it was the intention behind the magick that made it so...

[CzechWoods]

black magic as terminology comes in handy, when you need to explain, a magical assault to someone, who has not studies there things in depth. you say black magic and they understand: bad magical assault.

this is how i use this term, and the people i tell about that understand (yes i make sure they do) what i mean

of course there is no colours to magic in reality. its just a term people understand, at least for me

[LadyWillow]

That is true, black magick is more of a way for people to understand something, but not really a 'form' of magick itself.

[Against The Tide]

Read with much interest. Thanks Pearl :)

I also believe that magic is colourless, it is the intent of the user that can make it harmful or helpful. I use the term 'black magic' amongst my friends when talking about unethical uses of magic.

[exodustruth]

I also agree that it is the intentions behind that magick that defines what type of magic it is. I do not believe that magick should be broken down in terms of black and white. I think that the terms black and white are the product of a mind that only sees things as being either black or white...

[Fencai]

I agree with what has already been said...
Magic is colorless, and it is the intention that is behind the way it is used that causes people to say "black" or white".
I started another discussion in my Bardic class, of what is "Occult", it is another misused term, much like "Black". It is how society places a term/label on something without truly understanding the nature of said item/term/etc..
When speaking with friends who do not follow the path, i try to simplify it for them, and say that its kind of like when you are small, and your parents teach you "right" from "wrong" and you must learn to make choices for yourself within what those terms mean to you, and at the same time, be willing to accept the circumstances. (Although, at time this may be over-simplifying things.) It is a decision that must be made each time you cast a spell, or have a magical intent.
Again, there is not a defined line of "Black" or "White", but what your intentions are and how you use your abilities and knowledge.

[~Elise~]

dang--no dissent?

Seriously, that's great to know that others see it that way. Personally, I've started using the term baneful instead of black.

Elise

[CzechWoods]

hey pearls, we can still put up a pond of mud and do some wrestling, talking bout black magic and fights

:heybaby:

just kidding

:alol:

[Mainedruid]

I tend to agree with pearls59... here are my words on this.

Black Magic--does it exist?

I'm about balance... in theory any way. light/dark, good/bad, male/female... the list goes on and on.

I also believe in cycle... or simply put, circle... if you go far enough one way you will get to the other side, if you keep going, eventually you will come back to where you started. A good example of this is depression... you start feeling down, things get worse... eventually you "bottom out" and the bounce back begins.. well I don't think of it as up and down but round and round... the key is stop movement where you want to be.

little off topic there sorry... back to it.

Magic comes from where you pull it from with in the circle. Good magic, bad magic... some where in between magic. There is magic that can harm others, there is magic that can harm your self... there is good magic too. It all depends on where you get it from and more importantly

how you use it.

you can used good magic to do harm, but on the flip side... you can use "bad" magic to do good... odd theory but its there none the less.

its all like water... fluid... moving... good or bad is decided both by the caster and the object upon which the magic is casted......

I could keep going, but I'll stop here I think

[~NightFire~]

:idea:

These are my main thoughts;


*I don't call it 'Black' magick-I call it Evil magick. I wouldn't say that all Human beings in this world are either purely Good or purely Evil-rather varying degrees, & I think that intentions, spells, & magick (etc) are like this aswell. I suppose I see it as being; 'from a scale of Good to Evil...' :hahugh:

*I agree with your views on things Pearls59, & I also think that it's the person doing the magick, &/or the intention behind the magick that causes it to be Good or Evil.

*I think that the article is really interesting, & I mostly agree with it. The only thing that I don't agree with is doing spells to get anything that you want. I think that it's materialistic, & that it would be better to do a spell for something more general. For example; for a spell to help you get a new job-maybe do a spell for more confidence? instead of thinking; 'I'm going to do a spell that will make me get this job'. The words personal gain come to mind...

*I had a random thought about Ying & Yang aswell-How both come together to create harmony, & how they both have to be balanced in order for there to be harmony. Not that I know much about it, but there you go!

*I also agree with what everyone else has said so far.

Hmmm-I hope everyone can see what I'm trying to say! :lol:

[The Panther's Dream]

I agree with what everyone and mostly what the article said. I think of magic as being energy and that energy is used and manipulated with intent. I think that the energy itself is not good, nor evil, it simply is. The person using the energy for their own purposes chooses whether the energy will be focused in a positive or negative light.

The karma issues don't really fit into my belief system so that was one thing that I didn't really agree with. I don't believe that someone should just be a good person simply to get in good with their gods, or to avoid bad karma. And I'm not saying that people who believe in Karma do it solely for this reason, either. It just seems that, from my experience, a lot of people simply do good things just because of Karma, or the god/goddesses they believe in. I think that people should be good people simply to be good people. Helping others, being kind and considerate and not harming people should be done for yourself, not for the gods, or whatever other reasons.

[~Elise~]

:idea:


*I think that the article is really interesting, & I mostly agree with it. The only thing that I don't agree with is doing spells to get anything that you want. I think that it's materialistic, & that it would be better to do a spell for something more general. For example; for a spell to help you get a new job-maybe do a spell for more confidence? instead of thinking; 'I'm going to do a spell that will make me get this job'. The words personal gain come to mind...





Okay--Devil's Advocate here:

What is wrong with doing spells for personal gain? Why shouldn't we have the best for ourselves?
Are you more 'godly', for want of a better term, for denying yourself personal gain?

Elise

[Rhala]

I don’t think personal gain comes into it. Why do we ask for a blessing on a loved one? Because we love them (maybe).

I think “black magic” is a term utilised by people wishing to cast aspersions on all magic. Which is nonsense!

I feel it better describes magic, which is intended to be used for the detriment of others. Thus showing a darker and more malicious side.

However I do also accept other definitions.

[~Elise~]

Please note that this thread is in the Circle of Teaching and is part of an ongoing class. Please don't post in the thread unless you're a student or send me a PM first.

Elise

[Against The Tide]

Okay--Devil's Advocate here:

What is wrong with doing spells for personal gain? Why shouldn't we have the best for ourselves?
Are you more 'godly', for want of a better term, for denying yourself personal gain?

Elise

I share the *Alex*'s veiw that you can't just go around casting for this and casting for that. For lack of a better word, I find it disrespectful of the Gods if you bug them with lots of little requests for things that can be achieved through mudane matters. If I direly need something then I will ask for help in getting it, but I won't expect it to pop out of thin air - IMO casting should be supported by a mudane effort.

They say 'God helps those who help themselves', and maybe I should use magic to make my life easier at every opportunity - dry my clothes a touch quicker with weather magic, heal my bad knee with magic as I can't be bothered to rest it, use charms and confidence enhancing spells to get a date when I am feeling too dumb to be witty and charming.... I think if I used magic this way it would become less... magical. And I don't like the thought of becoming dependant on magic. A witch should still be a witch even if the abillity to use magic was taken away from you, its not magic that makes a witch its the autonomy (I finally looked that word up), force of will and self awareness that witches possess. A dependancy on a spell for every little thing would make us quite vunerable - but thats just my 2 cents, only cast when it is needed....

Edit: But I'm not against self gain spells all together. I hope I don't come across like I do.

[~Elise~]

I agree with that... you can't just do it willy-nilly and you have to work on the mundane level as well.

The question was--why are spells for personal gain frowned on by some?

Do you not deserve to have the good things in life? Are you more witchy because you don't cast in that manner?

just playing devil's advocate....

Elise

[wintermagick]

Personally I've always seen magick as neutral/colorless. To say that magick is white or black is to assign magick itself a moral compass. But yes, if someone so desires they could use the magick for a "dark/baneful/whatever" purpose.

I myself have never really had much of an interest in all of that. In years past I was definitely of the "fluff" variety.

I do have a question though. More and more I'm seeing the term "chaos magick" floating around. What is that, exactly? I feel kind of odd asking after eight and a half years of practicing, but... meh. No time like the present.

[~Elise~]

I do have a question though. More and more I'm seeing the term "chaos magick" floating around. What is that, exactly? I feel kind of odd asking after eight and a half years of practicing, but... meh. No time like the present.



"Chaos is not in itself, a system or philosophy. It is rather an attitude that one applies to one's magic and philosophy. It is the basis for all magic, as it is the primal creative force. A Chaos Magician learns a variety of magical techniques, usually as many as s/he can gain access to, but sees beyond the systems and dogmas to the physics behind the magical force and uses whatever methods are appealing to him/herself."
- Mark Chao, "Defining Chaos"



Here is the rest of the article by him, as well:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/chaos/chaosdef.htm


Here are a few more definations via quotes:



"Rather than trying to recover and maintain a tradition that links back to the past (and former glories), Chaos Magick is an approach that enables the individual to use anything that s/he thinks is suitable as a temporary belief or symbol system. What matters is the results you get, not the 'authenticity' of the system used. So Chaos Magic then, is not a system - it utilises systems and encourages adherents to devise their own, giving magic a truly Postmodernist flavour."
- Phil Hine, Condensed Chaos


"Much of what passes for magical theory is, at root, a matter of belief. As such, it is more relevant to the successful outcome of the magician's spell that he has some degree of belief in what he is doing. Moreover, whereas scientific theories are based (at least so we are told by scientists) on mathematical proofs, magical theories are rooted in personal beliefs of whoever is expounding them. Where as scientific theories at least have the appearance of being unified and consistent, magical theories do not, nor is it a requirement, from the position of practical magic, that they do.
"Henceforth, whilst there are a great many theories and models proposed as to how, or why, magic works (based on subtle energies, animal magnetism, psychological concepts, quantum theory, mathematics or the so-called anthropomorphic principle) it is not a case that one of them is more 'true' than others, but a case of which theory or model you choose to believe in, or which theory you find most attractive. Indeed, from a Chaos Magic perspective, you can selectively believe that a particular theory or model of magical action is true only for the duration of a particular ritual or phase of work."
- Phil Hine, Prime Chaos


"Chaos comes before all principles of order & entropy, it's neither a god nor a maggot, its idiotic desires encompass & define every possible choreography, all meaningless aethers & phlogistons, its masks are crystallizations of its own facenessness, like clouds...Chaos never died."
- Hakim Bey, T.A.Z.


"Chaos Magic is about actualising the will in the real world, rather than attaining ever more colourful dreams in imaginary higher states."
- Steve Wilson, Chaos Ritual

[wintermagick]

Thanks... very thorough. :bigblue:

[lilyavalon]

Black magic...no.

Malicious person wielding magic...yes.

Person using magic for personal gain maliciously... yes

Person using magic to help others and trying to follow the crede of Harm None.... okay.

thats my .2 cents...

[BlackMagicalCat]

You can call it black magic,purple magic,pink magic,or anything you want to.

The fact is,,spells and curses can be cast to harm another,both in the christian world,and in the pagan world.And perhaps in other religions as well.

[Against The Tide]

The question was--why are spells for personal gain frowned on by some?

Do you not deserve to have the good things in life? Are you more witchy because you don't cast in that manner?

I honestly don't know, though I sometimes side with those that frown (though I also sometimes side with flagellants). I guess its a stance I picked up somewhere.

[~NightFire~]

Just a few things I wanted to comment on...


Okay--Devil's Advocate here:

What is wrong with doing spells for personal gain? Why shouldn't we have the best for ourselves?
Are you more 'godly', for want of a better term, for denying yourself personal gain?

Elise

Well, I don't agree with doing spells for material personal gain (e.g for money, a job, a house, etc) , but I agree with doing spells for emotional/non-physical reasons (e.g for confidence, happiness, peace, etc) . So when I say 'personal gain' I'm refering to material things-If that makes any sense! _inabox_
I think that everyone should have the best for themselves-just that material things are just that, & that they don't automatically amount to 'the best'.
I definitely don't think that I'm more 'godly' (for a start I don't believe in any!:) ) for denying personal gain-& as I mentioned above, I'm only denying material personal gain.


I don’t think personal gain comes into it. Why do we ask for a blessing on a loved one? Because we love them (maybe).

In my opinion asking for something (non-material) for someone else isn't personal gain.


I share the *Alex*'s veiw that you can't just go around casting for this and casting for that. For lack of a better word, I find it disrespectful of the Gods if you bug them with lots of little requests for things that can be achieved through mudane matters. If I direly need something then I will ask for help in getting it, but I won't expect it to pop out of thin air - IMO casting should be supported by a mudane effort.

They say 'God helps those who help themselves', and maybe I should use magic to make my life easier at every opportunity - dry my clothes a touch quicker with weather magic, heal my bad knee with magic as I can't be bothered to rest it, use charms and confidence enhancing spells to get a date when I am feeling too dumb to be witty and charming.... I think if I used magic this way it would become less... magical. And I don't like the thought of becoming dependant on magic. A witch should still be a witch even if the abillity to use magic was taken away from you, its not magic that makes a witch its the autonomy (I finally looked that word up), force of will and self awareness that witches possess. A dependancy on a spell for every little thing would make us quite vunerable - but thats just my 2 cents, only cast when it is needed....

Edit: But I'm not against self gain spells all together. I hope I don't come across like I do.

I agree, & I think that it undermines what you can achieve without the aid of Magick, if you use Magick as an answer to everything. I think that Magick should be an aid, & enjoyable-not a crutch, or a 'fix-all' solution.


I agree with that... you can't just do it willy-nilly and you have to work on the mundane level as well.

The question was--why are spells for personal gain frowned on by some?

Do you not deserve to have the good things in life? Are you more witchy because you don't cast in that manner?

just playing devil's advocate....

Elise

Personally (!), I can only speak for myself when it comes to personal gain, & so can everyone else.
I wouldn't say that I don't deserve to have the good things in life, because I do! & so does everyone else. But I don't see the good things in life as being material things only, & I think that if that's the only thing that's making someone happy, then they should consider why.
Lastly, I also wouldn't call myself more 'witchy' because I see things that way, & I don't see myself as being in any way superior to anyone else because of my views.
Each to their own at the end of the day.

Argh my brain! This class is making me think too much! :lol:

I love it really...:hahugh:

[LadyWillow]

I'm just adding to what Alex said.

Personally, I feel everyone should be able to, and should cast spells for personal gain.Now, bear with me here.

I think, in reasonable amounts of course, spells to help yourself are ok (i.e spells for money), however I feel those should be used along with mundane things such as looking for jobs, doing extra activities on the side to help bring in the extra cash, etc. I do not feel however, that spells such as those that seem to be cast, ONLY cast, without the help of mundane chores to help make the gain are just senseless.

If any of that makes any sense. Too early to think this much,lol.

[Mainedruid]

I'm just adding to what Alex said.

Personally, I feel everyone should be able to, and should cast spells for personal gain.Now, bear with me here.

I think, in reasonable amounts of course, spells to help yourself are ok (i.e spells for money), however I feel those should be used along with mundane things such as looking for jobs, doing extra activities on the side to help bring in the extra cash, etc. I do not feel however, that spells such as those that seem to be cast, ONLY cast, without the help of mundane chores to help make the gain are just senseless.

If any of that makes any sense. Too early to think this much,lol.

I think I know what you mean. Basically a spell for a better job is ok, but a spell to win the power ball for 40,000,000 is probably selfish and not advised....

I agree!

[LadyWillow]

I think I know what you mean. Basically a spell for a better job is ok, but a spell to win the power ball for 40,000,000 is probably selfish and not advised....

I agree!

Yes! That's exactly what I meant.
:fpraise:

Maybe I can think straight so early in the morning.

[~Elise~]

Just a few things I wanted to comment on...



Well, I don't agree with doing spells for material personal gain (e.g for money, a job, a house, etc) , but I agree with doing spells for emotional/non-physical reasons (e.g for confidence, happiness, peace, etc) . So when I say 'personal gain' I'm refering to material things-If that makes any sense! _inabox_
I think that everyone should have the best for themselves-just that material things are just that, & that they don't automatically amount to 'the best'.
I definitely don't think that I'm more 'godly' (for a start I don't believe in any!:) ) for denying personal gain-& as I mentioned above, I'm only denying material personal gain.



In my opinion asking for something (non-material) for someone else isn't personal gain.



I agree, & I think that it undermines what you can achieve without the aid of Magick, if you use Magick as an answer to everything. I think that Magick should be an aid, & enjoyable-not a crutch, or a 'fix-all' solution.



Personally (!), I can only speak for myself when it comes to personal gain, & so can everyone else.
I wouldn't say that I don't deserve to have the good things in life, because I do! & so does everyone else. But I don't see the good things in life as being material things only, & I think that if that's the only thing that's making someone happy, then they should consider why.
Lastly, I also wouldn't call myself more 'witchy' because I see things that way, & I don't see myself as being in any way superior to anyone else because of my views.
Each to their own at the end of the day.

Argh my brain! This class is making me think too much! :lol:

I love it really...:hahugh:

Good--then I'm doing my job!!!!!

As I said--playing devil's advocate and was hoping you didn't see it as an attack. Was wanting exactly what you answered.

Elise

[~Elise~]

I'm just adding to what Alex said.

Personally, I feel everyone should be able to, and should cast spells for personal gain.Now, bear with me here.

I think, in reasonable amounts of course, spells to help yourself are ok (i.e spells for money), however I feel those should be used along with mundane things such as looking for jobs, doing extra activities on the side to help bring in the extra cash, etc. I do not feel however, that spells such as those that seem to be cast, ONLY cast, without the help of mundane chores to help make the gain are just senseless.

If any of that makes any sense. Too early to think this much,lol.

Great--I just wanted to make sure that someone wasn't in the 'poor pagan' mindset. I abhor those who make it a badge of honor to be that way thinking that it makes them better than everyone else.

just my soapbox--I'll step down now.

Elise

[Fencai]

I agree with Lady Willow.
There's a fine line here. Doing a spell for luck, or help with a job is ok in my mind. Albeit, personal gain, but, not in a "needless" manner. It is helping you along the way.
for example, would it be wonderful to win the lottery? Absolutely...but if you did a spell to win those gains, would you be able to enjoy it? I know that for me, I would not be able to enjoy a single penny of that. But, if my spell, helped me to land a better job, so that through toiling and labor i could better my situation, then the circle had come 'round, and I am laboring, and putting more effort into my work to be better.

[Fencai]

and just to clarify, that by not in a needless manner, i mean,
you are miserable at your job, or your boss is a tyrant, youre being mentally abused etc...., not just "i want a new job cause im bored with this one" kind of thing!
LOL... a head cold and early morning dont mix! :lol:

[wolfjan1]

OK, Personally, I try to follow the creed. Doing no harm is the best way to go for me. The anger/revenge cycle becomes a nasty one; especially of one does not have all the input from both sides of a situation.
I am here to learn to protect myself from those who wish me harm, so it is good to learn the opinion of others and the input from a good teacher and classmates. To be honest, it has occurred to me to use a vengeful spell, but I resisted. That is not a judgement of others. I just learned that, for me, it would cause more stress to put something like that out in the universe. I have had enough trauma. I do not want to risk good energy for bad.
Thank you for the class. I am enjoying it and learning too. That is a good thing.

[~Elise~]

Lesson 3 is up!

[TheRiverDaughter]

((since I hopped on the wagon a wee bit late, I'm a bit late in posting this))

I really enjoyed reading through the discussion that's going on here - and I'm glad that, just like everywhere else, the world doesn't work in "black and white" <grin>. I've also got a personal issue with the whole "left-handed" thing - just because it's a silly holdover from an earlier age when being left-handed was bad (the word "sinister" is the Latin word for "left-handed").

The will of the person is what makes things good or bad.

As for the "is it good or bad to cast for personal gain" I think that, so long as it is not frivolous or tampering, personal gain is a good thing, but that it is better/more profitable to want things that are good in the "long" sense and not in the "short" sense - wanting a better job, so looking for things that will improve you as a person (more confidence, better communication skills) along with that new job search is going to yeild the best long-term result. Not only may you get a new job now, but you might get a promotion (better job!) and be in line for better jobs later on as well. Short term stuff may not have that kind of lasting effect. Especially with the lottery thing - doing a spell to influence the outcome of the lottery is, in a way, cheating! (at least it seems that if I won in that manner, I would probably feel rather icky)

Of course, playing devil's advocate with myself, that can be turned into "I want more money, but I'm going to hide it in this other stuff" - so I don't know (:

Denial of self is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

[He who seeks]

hmmman great and interest post

Magic is undefinable by most who dont or choose not to understand it to me

Magic fills every space and material created from the primal chaos power the raw source it has no bad or good as it does not know this.

It is those who use weild or channel it define it in what they judge but it clear that as humans desire to name things thus linking different channels of magic that concren different aspects of natural forces in with colours

like green magic is possible of natures plants and such

[wrenjamin]

((I lost track of time what with the holidays and traveling and whatnot...so sorry!))

I agree with what appears to be the majority opinion in that magick is colorless. I think that the intent behind the spell/energy work determines the outcome.

I think that spells for personal gain tread a thin line. It is possible to work energy for oneself in a positive manner, but you have to be careful that it is not taking away from anything else.

I believe that there is a balance in this world, and a personal balance of energy. You have to be careful not to disrupt that.

[AussiePagan]

Like pretty much everyone else, I don't see magic as being either good or evil, white or black, etc. It's all about your intention and the end result. I view magic as a tool (albeit one I've got next to no idea how to use :nyah: ), and like all tools, can be used for a 'good' or 'evil' purpose.

Good and evil, right and wrong, is just morality, which is inheritly subjective and based mostly on the individual's culture. To take an extreme example, "honour killings" are considered moral in some Islamic countries, while in the west they are considered an abhorrent abuse of human rights. So lacking a universal morality, consistent across cultures and time, magic itself can't have a moral component, and still be universal. So we can judge a persons actions using magic with a particular set of morals, just like we can judge someones actions using any tool, for instance use of a firearm can be considered good or bad depending on the context, but the morality isn't intrinsic to magic itself, rather it's something we attach to it, just as we attach morality to the use of other tools, such as the firearm.


Hope that makes sense :lol: It makes sense to me, but thats not saying much :p


I don't see anything particularly wrong with using magic for personal gain, as I don't see anything particularly wrong with personal gain. That said, I don't see personal gain as my overriding purpose on earth, so I wouldn't harm others just to get what I want. Using the lotto example, If I won it, using magic or just dumb luck, I wouldn't feel bad, I'd use a bit of it to live comfortably and spend the rest on doing as much as i can to help others. It may be cheating, but look at it this way, if you had the ability to fix lotto, and thus could choose to win lotto and spend the money on humanitarian aid to feed starving people who would otherwise die, wouldn't be "wrong" to not do it ?

[Slyph]

The definition I give my IRL students is that magic is the ability to change reality at will. Magic is like electricity. It is universal energy out there waiting to be tapped into. There is not white or black electric--there is no white or black magic. white and black magic get into having a value assigned to them. WE, as society, place that value.

I prefer to think, continuing your metaphor, that electricity is good when it lights your porch and bad when you jury-rig your doorbell to kill your mailman.

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WHAT FOLLOWS IS A HUMOROUS CRITIQUE OF PRESUMABLY AN ACADEMIC ESSAY THAT WAS QUOTED BY THE AUTHOR OF THE ORIGINAL POST, IT IS NOT INTENDED TO INSULT, FLAME OR OTHERWISE ANNOY THE AUTHOR OF THE POST

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Saying "black" when we mean "evil" is nasty nonsense. In the first place, it reinforces the racist stereotypes that corrupt our society.

-________________________-;;;;

I think it's clear enough that a person using the ages-old metaphor of "light and darkness" is probably Not referring to skin tone, after all, I know of plenty of magicians who are black who call themselves white magicians.



And that's not all. Whenever we say "black" instead of "bad," we repeat again the big lie that darkness is wrong. It isn't, as people who profess to love Nature should know. Darkness can mean the inside of the womb, and the seed germinating within the Earth, and the chaos that gives rise to all truly new beginnings.

Far be it from me to argue with someone who uses the word "Chaos" as a catch-all excuse for whatever bizarre semantic sophism they plucked out of their %£" to pad a remedial essay on the role of horse-€^$% in contemporary postmodernist gendered readings of transwicca in the context of the barnes and noble "occult" section, what with my being discordian and all, and that stuff pretty much being our forte, but in this case I guess it's justified.

Am I then, committing a hate-crime against those with beards when I speak of "a hairy situation"?

You're narrowing the focus of words, reducing the number of similies for a given concept, That destroys poetry, ultimately harms the ability of future generations to understand what exactly old books were getting at and all sorts of horrid things ensue. Mr. Orwell wrote a very interesting book that touched on just that.

Do you not trust your own practitioners to know that when light and darkness and black and white are spoken of as metaphors for good and evil concepts or deeds, that that doesn't automatically mean black jumpers are dangerous and black people are evil and switching the light off at night means bogeymen are going to eat them? Do you think perhaps these terms evolved out of night-time being more dangerous than day-time for people because of the way their eyes work rather than some ancient conspiracy to make wombs out to be the seat of satan's soul?


It is not only ethical but good for you to do lots of magic to improve your own life.


The main argument against here, (playing devil's advocate) would be that by giving yourself a leg-up in a job interview by metaphysical means, you're cheating a hard-working joe out of a position he might need more.

[~Belladonna~]

Great Stuff!!! Love this thread, very useful information that ALL should read :)