Do most Modern Heathens Go to Hel?

[Dustypuppy]

Ive been thinkng this through and it concerns me quite a bit. In traditional thought only those who die in battle get to go to either Valhalla or Freyas halls, the rest who die through other causes go to Hel. Im not in the military and im pressuming quite a few Heathens on here arent either, so what are we to do. I don't really want to go and chill with Hel itd be so miserable, I wana partay with Odin!x

[Grimr]

Ive been thinkng this through and it concerns me quite a bit. In traditional thought only those who die in battle get to go to either Valhalla or Freyas halls, the rest who die through other causes go to Hel. Im not in the military and im pressuming quite a few Heathens on here arent either, so what are we to do. I don't really want to go and chill with Hel itd be so miserable, I wana partay with Odin!x

Hel is not so bad.

One side of Hel the dead go to peace in paradise and the other side of Hel is left for the oathbreakers,rapists,murderers and evil men.

Hel is half paradise for simple human beings where the other half is misery for evil cruel men.

That is the way I have my understanding anyways.

There is also Gimli's hall or other places.

For instance there is Thor's hall or the blessed fields.

I forget the name of the blessed fields I will look it up for you.

[Grimr]

Here is a great site for you on Norse afterlife beliefs.

http://pagansojourn.blogspot.com/2006/08/beyond-midgard.html

[Dustypuppy]

Thanks, thats brilliant il go delve into it!x

[Driffinna]

I personally say to look into Ellis Davidson's Book "Road to Hel" its very indepth though a little hard to find.

[David19]

I personally say to look into Ellis Davidson's Book "Road to Hel" its very indepth though a little hard to find.

Though you can get free copies online, just google it, and it should be on the first page somewhere, that's how i got mine :).

[Carla O'Harris]

Valhalla is for the best of the heroes who want to train to fight Ragnarok. The idea that those who are not heroes rot in Loki's Daughter's place reserved for the punished is blasphemous. The post about half of Hel being a place of peace and bliss is absolutely correct.

[Hærfest Leah]

Though you can get free copies online, just google it, and it should be on the first page somewhere, that's how i got mine :).

http://ragngautr-kindred.org/library.html (download)

or

http://normannii.org/guilds_lore/lore/roadtohel/toc.htm (read online)

[David19]

Valhalla is for the best of the heroes who want to train to fight Ragnarok. The idea that those who are not heroes rot in Loki's Daughter's place reserved for the punished is blasphemous. The post about half of Hel being a place of peace and bliss is absolutely correct.

I didn't think those that went to Hel, 'rotted', i thought that the majority went there and that it was a place of peace or something? not sure if i was right or not.

[Skadi]

The soul may go on to the Hall of their patron God if deemed worthy, or to Helheim (Hel). Most of the souls are, in time, reincarnated within the family line, which is where the custom of naming babies after ancestors came from.

There is one area of Hel, called Nastrond, and only the very worst souls reside there. (Oath-breakers, Murderers, adulterers etc...) It is not for eternity though, unlike the Christian Hell as they are still given the chance for reincarnation.

For us, 'heaven' is being with their ancestors after death and 'Hell' would be spending the after life without one's kin. (Which is exactly what the Christian heaven is... as you are not supposed to be able to recognize anyone from your lifetime.) So it would be considered a place of peace, but not quite as nice as spending the afterlife with kin AND among the Gods.

I am not sure where the idea, that you can only go to Valhalla or Freya's hall, comes from, but that isn't so.

[Eldred Grimm]

yea what Sakdi said very well put

[Torulf]

And why should one not rather chose Valhall? It is not impossible to become one of the best fighters on earth, that has to count for something right? Wouldn't it be possible to reach Valhall via martial art? Just a thought

[Gyda]

And why should one not rather chose Valhall? It is not impossible to become one of the best fighters on earth, that has to count for something right? Wouldn't it be possible to reach Valhall via martial art? Just a thought

To reach Valhalla in what I've read and understand you have to die in battle, just being a good warrior doesn't get you there, a straw death get you to Hel's realm.

Gyda

[Torulf]

Yes but say hypthetically that you do become the greates fighter, then you definately achieve hero status. All you have to do then is to go and pick a fight where your life is on the line. The best fighter in the world dies fighting. It have to be a sure ticket to Valhall.

[David19]

Yes but say hypthetically that you do become the greates fighter, then you definately achieve hero status. All you have to do then is to go and pick a fight where your life is on the line. The best fighter in the world dies fighting. It have to be a sure ticket to Valhall.

I can't answer from a Heathen perspective, but I'd have thought a true here isn't someone who just picks a fight and hopes to get killed, but someone who dies sacrificing their lives for someone else (or a group of people), like say, a soldier who sacrifices himself to save another soldier or a fireman who rushes into a blazing building to rescue someone, etc.

[Rick]

Yes but say hypthetically that you do become the greates fighter, then you definately achieve hero status. All you have to do then is to go and pick a fight where your life is on the line. The best fighter in the world dies fighting. It have to be a sure ticket to Valhall.
No, it doesn't.

The Lore says admittance to The Hall of the Slain is through a "gaping wound."

[wolfjan1]

Define Hell. Is it the current American political situation? Thought police? Discriminating laws? Big business, GWBush and his cronies, poverty, illegal war? suicide bombing? rape, murder, landgrabbing oil and mining concerns? Discrimination and defiling of women? Infanticide? I can't even name all the evil without vomiting on my keyboard.
We are here, baby, right here on Earth. Like some kind of class experiment for some alien culture, we are here.

[Russ]

So if you get to Valhalla via a wound, why is that Sigurd the Volsung went to Hel even though he died of wounds.

An Baulder for that matter was killed with a weapon yet he went to Hel.

[Torulf]

So Rick, what you are saying is that you have to be a warrior with some sort of weapon in order to die and go to Valhalla? Is it not said that the gods collect heroes that can fight for them in Ragnarök? What could be better than the worlds best fighter? Of course they would take him, it seems quite obvious that a warrior which has proven himself and dies in battle would be admitted into Valhall. He is a true warrior, in fact one of the best in the world in his field. That should be sufficient if he do die in combat. You can get some nasty wounds even if you do not use weapons, you might call some gaping. It just seems irrelevant how the person goes as long as it is in battle. However it seems that you know quite a bit of lore, would you not say that it is sufficient to be a great warrior and to die in battle? How does your weapon of choice matter and how does your opponents weapon of choice matter? This is of course my interpretation, I would like your opinion in the matter.

And David, I see your point, it dont sound very flashy running around getting oneself killed. But say you do challenge other great fighters and make clear that you will fight to the death and they would do well in doing so to in order to survive, that would be testing yourself to the limits. (Very inconsiderate thought :P) However take Vikings plundering, it's basically the same as running into a village and taking peoples things, not very heroic perhaps but if they died in such a battle they would be permitted anyways. So it should not matter what your objectives are as long it is in a battle. What do you think?

[ModernKnight]

There were different beliefs in different areas and time periods. In many of the sagas, the dead (such as Gunnar in Njal's Saga) die in battle yet simply live on in their burial mound. The Eruli tribe didn't permit their men to die of sickness. Instead:


"They had many laws which differed from those of the rest of mankind; for when they became aged or sick they were not allowed to live. As soon as one of them was overtaken by old age or disease it became incumbent on him to request his relatives to put him out of the way as quickly as possible. The relatives made a great pile of logs, reaching to a considerable height, and setting the man on the top they sent up one of the Eruli against him with a dagger. This man had to be chosen from another family, for it was not lawful that the executioner should be related to the victim. And when the man who had been chosen to slay their kinsman had returned, they proceeded forthwith to set all the logs on fire, beginning at the extremities of the pile. When the fire had died out they collected the bones and buried them without delay in the ground.

Thus, all members of their tribe died by combat. In the Yngling Saga, people simply mark dying people with a javelin (non-fatal stabbing of a dying man) to ensure entry into Valhalla. In the Yngling Saga, Odin says that men will take to Valhalla any possessions burnt with them on the pyre, implying that cremation is required during the time in which it was written. In fact, burial practices were generally cremation during the bronze age, switching to burial mounds in the early iron age, then back to cremation.

For more information, I recommend The Cult of Othin (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/othin/index.php)

[Torulf]

I have been looking around the site you presented ModernKnight and as far as I could see the persons stabbed were those who were about to die an "unworthy" death such as sickness or hanging etc. Otherwise it only mention die in battle as a criterium in order to reach Valhall.

[Kern]

Perhaps the most famous possibility is Valhalla - Odin's great hall of the weapon-slain, who battle every day only to be fully restored and grandly feasted every night.[3] The prospect of entering Valhalla, and one day standing with Odin at the final battle of Ragnarok, was so great that Heathens who were dying of sickness or old age (called the straw death, for basically dying in bed) would deliberately wound themselves with a spear shortly before dying.


Only some of the weapon-slain enter Valhalla, though - others are chosen by Freyja to dwell in her hall, Folkvang. What happens to these warriors we aren't told; but since Freyja is both a battle goddess and fertility goddess, it's safe to assume that they don't rest idly. Those interested in spending eternity with Odin or Freyja, or any of the other gods, don't have to die in combat to do so. Odin has another hall, Valaskjalf, Freyja also has Sessrumnir to offer, and each of the other gods and goddesses have their own halls, as do the giants. Two examples directly given in our lore, that tell us these other gods and giants take humans in are the halls of Ægir and Gefjon. Gefjon is the goddess of virgins, and when a woman dies still a virgin, she goes to Gefjon's hall.[4] Sailors who perish at sea are taken to dwell in the hall of the giants, Ægir and Ran, where those who wish to gain favor from Ran had best hope that they drowned with a piece of gold on them.[5] Taking all of this into consideration, it can be said that if a Heathen is to end up dwelling in the hall of a god or giant in the afterlife, it would tend to be with the god or giant that the person's life (or death) was most associated with.

http://pagansojourn.blogspot.com/2006/08/beyond-midgard.html

[Rick]

Define Hell. Is it the current American political situation? Thought police? Discriminating laws? Big business, GWBush and his cronies, poverty, illegal war? suicide bombing? rape, murder, landgrabbing oil and mining concerns? Discrimination and defiling of women? Infanticide? I can't even name all the evil without vomiting on my keyboard.
We are here, baby, right here on Earth. Like some kind of class experiment for some alien culture, we are here.
You must have mistaken this for Political Pagan; this is the Re-Con Forum. None of that has anything to do with this thread, which is about 'straw deaths' & Hel versus valorous deaths & Valhalla.


So if you get to Valhalla via a wound, why is that Sigurd the Volsung went to Hel even though he died of wounds.

An Baulder for that matter was killed with a weapon yet he went to Hel.
OK... I can't keep track of all those Sig-Heroes without a score card... was Sigurd murdered?

As to Baldur, no question that he was murdered... and I'm not entirely certain that a dart made of mistletoe counts as a weapon...

I'm pretty certain that being murdered doesn't get you admittance to Valhalla, regardless of how gaping the wound may be... gotta be in combat, I think...

I dunno... the Poetic Edda indicates that Odin sends his Valkyries to the battlefield to choose among the slain, which would indicate that all the slain aren't chosen... then there's the thing in the Prose Edda that says that Freya gets half the slain, and chooses first (which could explain why the valkyries don't take all the slain, I reckon)...

Edited to add: If I'd have read the entire thread, I'd have seen that Kern had posted much the same...


So Rick, what you are saying is that you have to be a warrior with some sort of weapon in order to die and go to Valhalla? Is it not said that the gods collect heroes that can fight for them in Ragnarök? What could be better than the worlds best fighter? Of course they would take him, it seems quite obvious that a warrior which has proven himself and dies in battle would be admitted into Valhall. He is a true warrior, in fact one of the best in the world in his field. That should be sufficient if he do die in combat. You can get some nasty wounds even if you do not use weapons, you might call some gaping. It just seems irrelevant how the person goes as long as it is in battle. However it seems that you know quite a bit of lore, would you not say that it is sufficient to be a great warrior and to die in battle? How does your weapon of choice matter and how does your opponents weapon of choice matter? This is of course my interpretation, I would like your opinion in the matter.
Son, you wear me out.

I never said you had to have a weapon in your hand (ala Kirk Douglas in The Vikings; although I enjoy the movie, it isn't particularly historically accurate).

I can only say again, read the Lore, don't get your ideas of going to Valhalla from movies or other popular media.

Believe whatever you wanna believe, make up whatever you wanna make up; go out & challenge some bad-ass biker gang & get killed, then get back to me on where you wind up. That's the only way either of us is gonna convince the other. But let me know in advance before you do that, so I can be sure to go mound-sitting afterwards, 'cuz that'll be one message I don't wanna miss.

There are plenty of other forums one can visit, if one enjoys so much about arguing such minutiae... PM me for the links. But be advised in advance, the Folk there don't play nice with others.

[Torulf]

hahahaha, I'm just speculating =)

Oki I will leave it for now, it was just something that caught my interest. I thank you for offering to mound-sitting though.
I will consult the older litterature this time. Do not worry, I never turn to any form of popular media or such for information, I require good reasons before I accept things seen or heard as true. And to be honest, popular media tend to be bs.

[Gyda]

Yes but say hypthetically that you do become the greates fighter, then you definately achieve hero status. All you have to do then is to go and pick a fight where your life is on the line. The best fighter in the world dies fighting. It have to be a sure ticket to Valhall.

Picking a fight and dying as a result isn't dying in battle, it won't in my understanding get you into Valhalla. :viking:

Gyda