What Happened to Vili and Ve?

[Dustypuppy]

Odins 2 brothers who helped him to create the universe...what happens to them after this....members of Asgard?x

[Driffinna]

They are never brought up again outside of the creation story. Some theorize that Odin, Villi and Ve are all actually one diety.

[David19]

I'm not a Heathen, so i can't answer as well as an Heathen, but maybe they just work in the background or something, and aren't that interested in humans.

Perhaps they're also wanderers like Odin is (he is, isn't he?), and are off gaining some kind of knowledge on another plane/realm - maybe even to help Odin at Ragnarok or something.

Although, something i've heard is that in ancient Norse times, there were many more gods that the ones that have been come down to us today, and many more goddesses too (i think anyway?).

So maybe it's just the lore that mentined Vili and Ve was lost or something, in the sands of time, maybe it'll show up again, or maybe it'll just wait till they appear to others or something.

It does seem interesting that there might be other Norse gods that we don't know about, makes you wonder, what they're doing....

[Carla O'Harris]

To answer that question, you have to know their other names.

Ve (Weoh, meaning Unspeakably Holy) is also known as Hoenir.

Vili ("Will", but also in the sense of "cupidus") is also known as Lodur.

Hoenir often accompanies Odin and Loki in voyages. His totem is the stork. He himself is known as the "Long-legged King of the Marshes", and the "Swift-Footed".

Lodur became arrogant and stripped various high dignitaries of their rights, and was overthrown and killed.

I happen to know much, much more about these entities than is normally known, as I have done a great deal of research on it, for anyone who would like to privately know. But due to an unfortunate if frequent arrogant and persistent ignorance within some elements in the Asatru community (which thankfully many others, often a silent minority, do not share), I will leave those facts for those with ears to hear.

[Mjollnir]

Once again.............I took the high road.

[SwordsFlameSong]

Edited: Thank you Carla for editing your post as you did. The adminning below is no longer necessary. @ 10:57 am 3 Dec 2006



***ADMIN MODE***

Carla,

Comments such as the following, emphasis mine, are in violation of the Respect Rule



But due to the general arrogant and persistent ignorance of the Asatru community, I will leave those facts for those with ears to hear.


Specifically:



3. Racism, sexism, age discrimination, the outright bashing of a path or religion, etc is unacceptable. Debating the tenets of a religion is one thing...calling all Christians evil or saying that all Pagans are going to hell is not allowed. Proselytizing is not allowed in any form. No conversion or 'witnessing' is allowed. We are not here to spread our various religions. We are here to be friends, love and respect each other, and most importantly...learn. Tolerance is key. All religions and Paths are welcome here providing their tenets do not violate any laws or our rules. Calling someones religion "false", no matter how wrong or silly it may seem to you is not allowed.

The comment being adminned falls under the heading of bashing a path or religion.

If there are any questions regarding this adminning please feel free to contact myself or another Admin.

[Hærfest Leah]

Once again.............I took the high road.

Good for you Mjollnir, is anyone wondering yet why the actual Heathens on the board hardly respond to threads anymore? Guess the average Heathen isn't privy to know such information, maybe we're not in the correct circle :huddle: or secret society. < exiting stage left....:excuseme:>

[~Elise~]

Good for you Mjollnir, is anyone wondering yet why the actual Heathens on the board hardly respond to threads anymore? Guess the average Heathen isn't privy to know such information, maybe we're not in the correct circle :huddle: or secret society. < exiting stage left....:excuseme:>

Well, obviously there is material out there that NO ONE over all these centuries has ever discovered, connections that no one else is smart enough to have made...except apparently for a special few recently. We keep hearing about this/these books that are coming out...but no one will give titles OR publisher no matter how many times asked.

just MY opinon however, but I'm not Asatru.

Elise

[Carla O'Harris]

Well, obviously there is material out there that NO ONE over all these centuries has ever discovered, connections that no one else is smart enough to have made...except apparently for a special few recently. We keep hearing about this/these books that are coming out...but no one will give titles OR publisher no matter how many times asked.

just MY opinon however, but I'm not Asatru.

Elise


You're right, actually ; there is material that no one has bothered to put together in this way. There are always elements within religious communities that tend towards conformity, and to reject in advance ideas that don't fit within orthodox ideas. This is nothing new, and is something that hopefully we are in the process of evolving out of.

[Carla O'Harris]

Good for you Mjollnir, is anyone wondering yet why the actual Heathens on the board hardly respond to threads anymore? Guess the average Heathen isn't privy to know such information, maybe we're not in the correct circle :huddle: or secret society. < exiting stage left....:excuseme:>

"Actual" heathens? I am an "actual" heathen. You just don't like what I'm saying, that's all.

[Xentor]

Maybe she doesn't like the way you're saying it? If all of your posts are going to contain offensing statements, why bother reading what you have to say at all?

[Carla O'Harris]

***ADMIN MODE***

Carla,

Comments such as the following, emphasis mine, are in violation of the Respect Rule


Specifically:




The comment being adminned falls under the heading of bashing a path or religion.

If there are any questions regarding this adminning please feel free to contact myself or another Admin.


Well, it is certainly true that I have found some honorable, open-minded people within the Asatru community, and so I wouldn't want to slag everyone, so thank you for correcting me. I most certainly shouldn't have made a generalization that applied to those individuals who are courageous enough to stand out from some of the tendencies I have outlined. However, that there is at the very least an "obnoxious and vocal minority" within the community that dominates and rejects any information not within a very restricted range of orthodoxy is true, and because of that, I will make the information that I do have available to anyone who would privately like it. I am not calling anyone "swine" or "dogs", but I am invoking the principle behind Matthew 7 : 6,
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, 4 or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces."
Which means in part that if you don't like what I'm saying, feel free to go on your merry way.


Others will enjoy some of this information in a book that is presently being prepared.

As far as some people taking offense at what I have to say, why do they? Do they identify themselves with the elements I am critiquing? When it comes to critique, the phrase "if the shoe fits, wear it" also implies that if the shoe does not fit, one needs not take offense.

[Xentor]

Well, it is certainly true that I have found some honorable, open-minded people within the Asatru community, and so I wouldn't want to slag everyone, so thank you for correcting me. I most certainly shouldn't have made a generalization that applied to those individuals who are courageous enough to stand out from some of the tendencies I have outlined. However, that there is at the very least an "obnoxious and vocal minority" within the community that dominates and rejects any information not within a very restricted range of orthodoxy is true, and because of that, I will make the information that I do have available to anyone who would privately like it. I am not calling anyone "swine" or "dogs", but I am invoking the principle behind Matthew 7 : 6, Others will enjoy some of this information in a book that is presently being prepared.

As far as some people taking offense at what I have to say, why do they? Do they identify themselves with the elements I am critiquing? When it comes to critique, the phrase "if the shoe fits, wear it" also implies that if the shoe does not fit, one needs not take offense.

From the rules:

12. Public discussion of moderations, admin modes, and 'mol' modes is not allowed anywhere on the site except in the grievance forum.

2. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster.

3. Racism, sexism, age discrimination, the outright bashing of a path or religion, etc is unacceptable.

Strike #2

[Toby Stimpson]

Hmm, I would tend to disagree that Hoenir is Ve. I mean I would entertain the idea however it flies in the face of my personal research. All signs that I have been able to find in scholarly anthropology and mythological sources all have very limited information on VE and Vili. One of the greater persons, Michael Jordan, who through years of research compiled a comprehensive dictionary/encyclopedia including alternative names for Gods...Ve appears as Ve alone, with the exception of the theory that Ve, Vili and odin are all one deity. Larousse describes Hoenir as the fortune teller of the Aesir. Now there are several distinctions that I have been able to see, taking into account Snorri's Prose Edda...which is seen to be a variant of the southern Norse ideas. Vali is one of Odin's sons....Vili and Ve are his brothers. Hoenir is seen in some ways to be a form of Odin, or as a separate individual.

IF Ve, Vali and Odin were all aspects of one God...and Hoenir was a form of Odin, then that MIGHT conceivably be an argument FOR Carla's argument. However I must say I am feeling a little, unsatisfied. For two reasons:

A) Carla, you're unwillingness to provide any information rather than a second hand account. Its almost like saying you have a million dollars without any proof of a million dollars. To prove one's theories, especially when your tone shows great conviction in it is a sign that you are actually working towards viably defending your position.

B) This whole nonsense about "people not liking what you say" has got to go. It wont serve you any purpose in scholarly circles to claim that, and it does not prove your points becasue you have provided no proof. Please by all means lay out your evidence of what you have studied here for the benifit of all here at Mysticwicks...otherwise it is quite safe to say you have no proof and are making a grandiose claim.

Now, I can somewhat see a possibility...but at the same time Ve and Vili strike me as characters merely formed to flesh out a tale....or to create a more balanced biography for Odin. Now the Norse and north Germans strike me as a people that genealogy was important, although perhaps large scale Genealogies such as for example the greeks had was not as important. Through out the Eddas as well as the tales of various Norse lands you find the oral lineages of the Gods...so in that way I can see that characters would come into the tales as brothers, sisters, children, fathers and mothers in order to create a better picture of the particular character's heritage.

I would be interested to hear what you have evidence wise, or theory wise but please back up what you say instead of resorting to such ways as discrediting people for not believing you as being closed minded or unable to think forthemselves.

Namaste

Tobias

[Hærfest Leah]

"Actual" heathens? I am an "actual" heathen. You just don't like what I'm saying, that's all.

Uh no, Heathen you do not make.

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=144398&highlight=Wiccan

On November 14th, 2006, 08:18 PM you replied to Grimrs question of Is there any other Norse pagans or Asatru folk here?


Vanatru Wiccan here.

He to my knowledge wasn't asking for Wiccans or he wouldn't have posted it in the Recon forum.

Point blank, that makes you Wiccan and not a Heathen or Asatruar. Being so, none of the actual Heathens or Asatruar here (who are very nice, knowledgeable Asatruars) enjoy seeing your replies on Heathen threads like your speaking from a Heathen POV acting like the Grand Poobah of all Germanic experts. All it does is stir conflict that we are not looking for or we'd go find an Asatru board where that is why they get up in the morning.

Others have already addressed why no one likes how you post or express your views or we'd be more forgiving of your non Heathen but distantly related (due to it being Norse) path and be more open to welcoming your posts. We really can be quite accepting folk.

P.S. I'm not attacking you, I'm just being blunt as usual.

[~Elise~]

I would be interested to hear what you have evidence wise, or theory wise but please back up what you say instead of resorting to such ways as discrediting people for not believing you as being closed minded or unable to think forthemselves.

Namaste

Tobias

If this follows true to form as has been demonstrated in other threads...there will be no evidence or theory given. Just circular logic.
I've asked repeatedly as to the name of this mysterious book/s and who the publisher might be and have been ignored each and every time. Most times, you don't write a complete book without having a publisher lined up.

JMO however-maybe I'll be proven wrong this time though.

Elise

[Toby Stimpson]

If this follows true to form as has been demonstrated in other threads...there will be no evidence or theory given. Just circular logic.
I've asked repeatedly as to the name of this mysterious book/s and who the publisher might be and have been ignored each and every time. Most times, you don't write a complete book without having a publisher lined up.

JMO however-maybe I'll be proven wrong this time though.

Elise

We can but hope that dear Carla will provide evidence for her claims...as it sounds like an interesting theory. Perhaps I am an optimist of the highest calibre...

[Carla O'Harris]

A) Carla, you're unwillingness to provide any information rather than a second hand account. Its almost like saying you have a million dollars without any proof of a million dollars. To prove one's theories, especially when your tone shows great conviction in it is a sign that you are actually working towards viably defending your position.

No. Not in a heathen path place, for the exact reasons I have outlined above. For Wiccans, I will do so. I will not throw pearls to swine however, without calling anyone specifically swine, of course. In fact, I do have the backing for what I'm talking about, which is precisely why I'm writing a book on it. As I said, I'm happy to share with those who are open-minded. I am not going to place this important, well and hard-earned material in an open forum. That is perfectly reasonable.

And if I have a million dollars, I'll give it away to whom I like, and people asking me to "prove" I've got it are going to get nothing just for their attitude.


B) This whole nonsense about "people not liking what you say" has got to go. It wont serve you any purpose in scholarly circles to claim that, and it does not prove your points becasue you have provided no proof.

But I'm not dealing with "scholars", am I? I'm dealing with heathens.

And need I say for the 500th time that I don't give a rat's ass about "proof"? Proof is for fools. In most cases (not in this one), I'm happy to give public demonstrations of evidence and argumentation, but the idea that I have to "prove" anything to anyone is nonsense. I'm happy to reason with people. In this case, I'm happy to share certain things with those people open-minded who would like to privately contact me about it. End of story.

When the book comes out, it will be geared towards the open-minded scholar. It is those heathens who are close-minded (and for respect's sake, I will leave my opinions as to those percentages aside) and who want to preserve their orthodoxy who will have a problem with it.



Please by all means lay out your evidence of what you have studied here for the benifit of all here at Mysticwicks...otherwise it is quite safe to say you have no proof and are making a grandiose claim.


No, I've got the goods, but if anyone wants 'em, they'll have to earn them, through the appropriate attitude, and through a private channel. (This only applies to Asatru stuff, not to Wiccan stuff.) Those not willing to meet that criteria are welcome to keep deluding themselves that I've got nothing they don't have, and that's fine with me. I'm not trying to reach such people anyway. I'm making material available only for those people who are open-minded and might want access to something they wouldn't already have.

[Carla O'Harris]

Uh no, Heathen you do not make.

Outside of a flyting, you have neither the authority nor the clout to define me or tell me what I am or what I ain't.

I am a heathen, amongst other things, and if you don't like it, that is tough.



Point blank, that makes you Wiccan and not a Heathen or Asatruar.

Wrong. You ain't even close to knowing what I am, so don't even try to define me. You leave that job to me. I don't mess around with your self-definitions, so if you want any courtesy, don't mess around with mine.

You can say, "Gosh, Carla's a weird kind of heathen," or "Gosh, I don't like Carla's kind of heathenism", or "I damn well disagree with every one of Carla's theories about heathenism", or even "I just can't stand Carla", but you do not have the right to define me, and if you persist in this disrespectful tactic, I will report you.

But just a hint -- if you want to make any attempt at understanding me, you'll have to get out of the box. Because I have in one situation identified as "Vanatru" and as "Wiccan", you have placed me in a box. Nope. I'm Vanatru Wiccan heathen. If you don't understand that, feel free to find out about it, or to keep not understanding, but don't you dare try to tell me what I am or am not. You're welcome to keep vociferously disagreeing with my ideas, however.





Being so, none of the actual Heathens or Asatruar here (who are very nice, knowledgeable Asatruars) enjoy seeing your replies on Heathen threads like your speaking from a Heathen POV acting like the Grand Poobah of all Germanic experts.

Since I am an "actual" heathen, I have every right to discuss this and offer differing opinions regardless of whether you or anyone else likes it.

[Zibblsnrt]

I will not throw pearls to swine however, without calling anyone specifically swine, of course.


2. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster. Calling someone "neocon filth"/"Liberal traitor"/"Fluffy bunny"/"idiot"/"dumbass"/"moron"/"crackpot"/"conservative arsehole"/"big loser", actually, any name-calling whatsoever is not a refutation of an idea, it's a verbal (yah, yah...typed, written, etc) attack of another member of this community and it will not be tolerated.

Calling a large chunk of the readership swine generally doesn't pass muster, either.

There is no rule forbidding people from viewing large portions of this site's membership with disdain and contempt, but there is a rule about shoving it in peoples' faces.


...but you do not have the right to define me, and if you persist in this disrespectful tactic, I will report you.

First, if you have a problem with a user, report, don't threaten to. Leave the public discipline to us.

Second:


8. The report function is not there to be used when you lose an argument. It is there to report actions which are violations of the rules.

Being, without malice, described incorrectly does not qualify as such.

[~Elise~]

So-was that strike 3 and she's out since this is the third time she's been adminned in this thread for the same thing?

Just wondering........

Elise

[~Elise~]

We can but hope that dear Carla will provide evidence for her claims...as it sounds like an interesting theory. Perhaps I am an optimist of the highest calibre...

I'm an optimist, as well, but have learned my lesson the hard way on this topic. got a very sore head the last time.

And as of now, seems to holding true to form.

Elise

[Philosophia]

Wrong. You ain't even close to knowing what I am, so don't even try to define me. You leave that job to me. I don't mess around with your self-definitions, so if you want any courtesy, don't mess around with mine.

If you don't like being defined, why are do you do it to others?

For example:

But I'm not dealing with "scholars", am I? I'm dealing with heathens.

You're presuming that they weren't scholars due to them being heathens. Aren't you defining them by making the presumption that they aren't scholars?

[SwordsFlameSong]

***ADMIN MODE***



So-was that strike 3 and she's out since this is the third time she's been adminned in this thread for the same thing?

Just wondering........

Elise



12. Public discussion of moderations, admin modes, and 'mol' modes is not allowed anywhere on the site except in the grievance forum. Please read the guidelines for the grievance forum below. If you violate the rules outlined here then you will be moderated. It serves several purposes, of which the most important is getting threads back on track and showing real examples of these rules in action. This goes for anything...don't even quote a moderation and say 'Thank You.' Use a karma poke instead, as some members might see that as a slap in the face. It's not worth it! No public discussion of bannings is allowed and we will NOT discuss the banning of one member with another, so don't ask!


This thread is being closed. At this point there are more adminning posts then there are posts on the actual topic. I apologize to the original poster for this. Please feel free to start a new thread on this topic as it seemed quite interesting.

The following rule has been violated numerous times in this thread and is why it is being closed:




2. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster. Calling someone "liberal asshole"/"Fluffy bunny"/"idiot"/"dumbass"/"moron"/"screwhead"/"conservative arsehole"/"big loser", actually, any name-calling whatsoever is not a refutation of an idea, it's a verbal (yah, yah...typed, written, etc) attack of another member of this community and it will not be tolerated. Notice that we are talking about verbal attacks between members. You are free to call, for example, George Bush...a big loser, until the time comes when Mr. Bush joins the community. Then he must be respected like every other member. Also, no condescending stuff. Calling someone sweetypie, honeybunch, hun, missy, might just be the way you talk, but it can also imply a condescending tone. We have no way of knowing which way you are using the term...so if you are addressing someone directly, just use their username.


Please keep the above in mind if this topic is re-opened either via this thread or a new one.

If there are any questions or concerns please feel free to contact myself or another admin.