The Hebrews

[David19]

I've always been kind of interested in Hebrew history, especially their origins and i was just wondering, where did the Hebrews come from.

One thing i read this week at uni in a book (i can't remember the title but it was on the Holocaust for an essay i'm doing), and it mentioned about Jews in the ancient world, and that the Hebrew people really only came together during the exodus from Egypt, and that they were from many different backgrounds, united under the worship of Yahweh, their new god, and that Yahweh was a new god to them, but who took on the name of the god of Abraham, Issac, etc (i haven't got the book on me, but i'll try and get it out and type out the full quote).

I've also read that the Jews originally came from Sumer as Abraham was an Akkadian(sp?) (YHWH was his patron god, and he worshipped in the style of other Sumerians, while still respecting other gods).

But, does anyone know where they did come from, were they Sumerian/Akkadian or were they from many different groups that formed a new nation of people (e.g. i've read that in Egypt, there were a lot of Semitic foreigners that were growing, and so Pharoh Seti had his powerbase on the borders and taxed the foreigners heavily).

Also, does anyone know of the historical basis for the exodus from Egypt, there's a few books i'd like to get that talk about it like 'Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition' (http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/002-6527025-6713635), but i'm don't have the money for them.

Anyway, thanks for any help you can give me :).

[Of10Rot10]

Allow me to refer you to one of my favorite sites: Mideastweb.org (http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm)

Outside of the bible there is NO proof that the Exodus ever occured. Not only is there no proof in Egyptian histroy but no other people from the entire region have anything in their combind histories that can back up the story of the Exodus. That said there is evidence of a mass migration into that area from Mesopotamia.

The book you are talking about was written by a biblio-archaeologist. Serious Archaeologist frown on biblio-archaeologists because their methods of gathering and publishing their information. Biblio-archaeologists discount, ignore and twist facts in order to fit the Bible instead of allowing the artefacts and information speak for history as it really was.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Allow me to refer you to one of my favorite sites: Mideastweb.org (http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm)

Outside of the bible there is NO proof that the Exodus ever occured. Not only is there no proof in Egyptian histroy but no other people from the entire region have anything in their combind histories that can back up the story of the Exodus.


This is exactly how I understand it as well.

[David19]

Thanks, i think when you mentioned there is evidence that there was a mass migration from Mesopotamia is most likely the Hebrews 'cause from what i was told by a Sumerian recon who i respect and knows a lot, that Abraham, left with his tribes - which would've included priests, soldiers, other people, etc.

Also, on this site (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebegypt.html), it says:


We can make some guesses about the Hebrews in Egypt, though. It isn't unreasonable to believe that a sizable Hebrew population lived in the north of Egypt from about 1500-1250 BC; enormous numbers of tribal groups, most of them Semitic, had been settling in northern Egypt from about 1800 BC. These foreigners had grown so powerful that for a short time they dominated Egypt, ruling the Egyptians themselves; this period is called the Third Intermediate Period in Egyptian history. When the Egyptians reasserted dominance over Egypt at the start of the New Kingdom, they actively expelled as many foreigners as they could. Life got fairly harsh for these foreigners, who were called "habiru," which was applied to landless aliens (taken from the word, "apiru," or foreigner). Is this where the Hebrews got their name? It's a hotly contested issue. Nevertheless, the New Kingdom kings also began to garrison their borders in the north and east in order to prevent foreigners from entering the country in the first place. In particular, the Egyptian king, Seti I (1305-1290), moved his capital to Avaris at the very north of the Nile delta. This move was a shrewd move, for it established a powerful military presence right at the entrance to Egypt.

Garrisoned cities, however, don't pop into existence at a whim; they are labor intensive affairs. Typically, building projects involved heavy taxation of local populations; these taxes took the form of labor taxes. It isn't unreasonable to guess that the heaviest burden of these taxes fell on the foreigners living in the area, which would include the Hebrews. As best as we can guess, we believe that these building projects form the substance of the oppression of the Hebrews described in Exodus.

I like the site 'cause it does seem very scholarly, and doesn't just believe everything in the bible, but uses history to see where it fits.

But thanks again, it's just i find Hebrew history very interesting (so any books anyone could recommend would help me :)).

I think something must have happened in Egypt, afterall, if it didn't why did the Hebrews/Jews use Egypt in their 'stories', there would have had to have been some historical precedent for it, IMO, anyway.

[Of10Rot10]

I have a couple of problems with that site.

1.) 1305 - 1213 BCE are generally attributed to Ramses II and not Seti I.

2.) Labor taxes more intense on Non-Egyptians.

Labor tax is a very old idea that predates the Pyramids. Most of the crops in Egypt belonged to the state which the state stored for lean times during the flood season. The people worked on state projects during those times in order to gain access to the stored crops. It was the first welfare to work program. Hate to say this but the Egyptians were just xenophobic enough to have been more likely to exclude non-Egyptians in the leanest of times rather exact a heavier labor tax.

All that aside, something was going on during that time; Many think that is the time period when Thera blew its top.
One of the Trojan wars takes place at this time, maybe even THE Trojan war.
The Sea People begin to appear.

[Morr]

According to the Bible, going back to Aberaham -- The origin of the Hebrews is today's Iraq.

[David19]

All that aside, something was going on during that time; Many think that is the time period when Thera blew its top.
One of the Trojan wars takes place at this time, maybe even THE Trojan war.
The Sea People begin to appear.

Who were the Sea People (i've heard some people make connections between them and the Hebrews but i'm not sure if that's a real connection or what?).

Thanks for telling me, so were the Hebrews in Egypt at all, like in this mass migration from Sumer (Mesopotamia), do you think some (or all?) may have passed by or came to Egypt for awhile?.

[Of10Rot10]

Who were the Sea People (i've heard some people make connections between them and the Hebrews but i'm not sure if that's a real connection or what?).

The Truth? We really don't know exactly who they were so its entirely possible some may have been Hebrew but it is doubtful that the Sea People were Hebrew.

Here's a small site on the Sea People (http://lexicorient.com/e.o/sea_people.htm)


Thanks for telling me, so were the Hebrews in Egypt at all, like in this mass migration from Sumer (Mesopotamia), do you think some (or all?) may have passed by or came to Egypt for awhile?.

I do not doubt that there were Hebrews in Egypt. (Up until the 20th century its a fairly safe bet that Hebrews were living very peacefully in Egypt throughout time.) At the time, 1250 BCE, Egypt was the richest nation and the largest trade center in the known world. I do not doubt some were slaves. Even an Egyptian could become a slave within their own society at the time. I simply doubt the dramatic account of an Exodus as found in the bible

[Morr]

Again,

The Hebrews came from the area known as today's Iraq.

Egypt is debatable. But, they were not originally from Egypt.


Aberaham was the first to have Y-H-V-H as his one and only God. He took his wife (sometimes refered to as sister, but that is a common use of language to call your wife or fellow female a sister in the none-blood relation). They walked all the way to today's Israel. In the bible it is refered as land of Kena'an.

Aberaham has Issac (I'm not going to get into the whole Ishmael thing because that is a totally seperate subject matter).

He goes to sacrifice Issac to Y-H-V-H as part of a test Y-H-V-H presents to him to see how loyal Aberaham is. At the last minute Y-H-V-H stops Aberaham and Issac lives.

Issac goes on to marry Rebecca (his distanc cousin), and they have two sons. Esav and Jacob. Esav is the oldest, Jacob is the youngest.

Jecob goes to have a total of 12 sons -- Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issaschar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin.

Out of these 12 sons come the 12 tribes of Israel that make up the Hebrew nation.

At this point, the Hebrew nation are NOT Jews. The mothers of these 12 sons (Rabecca, Leah, Rachel, Zilpa, Bilha) were not of Aberaham's children, therefore still worshiped other Deities (most likely Sumerian and Kena'anite Gods).

When do the Hebrews actually become JEWS?

During Exodus when they reach Mt. Sinai and recieve the Torah from Y-H-V-H.

And the rest is history.

[Zelan]

Nicely done!