Scarlet Women

[morganxpage]

What are everyone's thoughts on the place of women within Ceremonial Magic and Thelema?

The Golden Dawn had many prominent female members, but there seems to be a complete lack of women involved in Thelema, other than a handful of Scarlet Women who get little recognition for doing anything other than sleep with the "more important" male magicians (Crowley, Parsons, et al).

Much of the rituals and literature is heavily phallocentric, as well.

What barriers do you see keeping women away from CM and/or Thelema? How do you think we should overcome them?

[BlueMoon13]

With what I know of CM and Thelema, which is not a great deal, frankly, it does seem to have a more fraternal air about it than other forms of paganism than I have encountered-more of a brotherhood with the empasis on "brother". I've tried to read more about CM and Thelema, but what materials I've encountered have been overly "heavy", if that makes sense. I also found it to be repetitive and contradictory, which I found to be frustrating in trying to learn more about it. It interests me, yet I did'nt find anything that really strikes a chord.

What I did find fascinating and have added to my magical "repertoire", if you will, are the various sigils and their contruction-Pentacles of the various planets, Sun, and Moon.

I don't know if my lack of connection with CM and Thelema have anything to do with me being a woman and the fraternal nature of the path ( as it strikes me) or if just me and my lack of the understanding of its mechanisms.

Can you suggest any reading that might interest a woman, or anyone of a differeing path in general?

[morganxpage]

Can you suggest any reading that might interest a woman, or anyone of a differeing path in general?

Crowley lays out some interesting thoughts on the place of women in Thelema in The Law is For All, ultimately coming to the conclusion that Thelema is all about freeing women from the oppression, chastity, and degradation that the monotheistic faiths have imposed on them.

Another good book that I find helps someone from a more Neo-Pagan context understand CM and Thelema, though indirectly, is Ellen Cannon Reed's The Witches' Qabala. In it, she stresses that the Qabalah isn't as phallocentric as it is commonly understood. Since the Qabalah is at the root of nearly every part of the Western Magickal Tradition (ie, CM, Thelema, et al.), it helps open up your understanding of the foundation of CM. And, of course, Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig is a very basic, classic CM text.

Unfortunately, there's very little material aimed at women and/or written by women in regards to CM and Thelema. Only a handful of female authors on the subject exist, most notably Dion Fortune (The Mystical Qabalah, Psychic Self-Defence, et al.) and Nema (Maat Magick).

[sidhe]

I usually sum up the gender problems in Thelema to Crowley's misogyny rather than having any real basis in fact. The Law is, after all, for All. I see no reason that a woman couldn't be a great Thelemite, especially if you get past Crowley's sense of gender roles and different energies being specific to gender. Given the amount of emphasis AC gave to balance of energy between masculine and feminine, and that energy can be worked by anyone regardless of gender (judging from personal experience), I'd say that achieving the proper balance of masculine/feminine is achievable by either gender.

Besides, Babalon turns away no one. :)

[PantherBaebe]

Here I am bringing up a very old thread... XD

I have definitely found that CM is very phallocentric.

I've had an interest in CM for some time, but I always seemed to wander away from it. Now that I'm wandering towards it again, I'm trying to work through some of the phallocentricity to make CM work for me.

I do think though, that different genders do have different energies to work with. Most start off leaning to one side, and the effort is to balance that out. So while the goal is the same, the paths differ. The best example I can think of, and it is something I know little of, is crossing the Abyss. Babalon waits in the City of Pyramids for the magickian to mingle his seed in her cup.... The trouble here being that I have no seed, but a cup of my own.

[Nox_Mortus]

well considering our local O.T.O. chapter is apparently run by a woman, I think in the current scheme of things they are seen as pretty much equal, and that most of the older works generally reflected the attitude of the time in which they where written.

EDIT: and wow old thread, oh well, this forum doesn't much activity anyways.

[sidhe]

Seriously. We don't post much here. :)

Actually, I'm reading The Red Goddess right now, which reappraises the traditional phallocentric view of CM. And, anyway, modern technology can create sperm and eggs from haploid cells, so...anyone can put their seed in anything.

Besides, IMHO, the crossing of the Abyss was about union, not fertilization. I find it a slam against my lesbian sorors that they aren't "really" achieving union in their lovemaking.

Again, AC's hopeless clinging to what he understood. As our understanding evolves, so should our practice.

[Xentor]

Consider the times when the Golden Dawn was created and most succesful. In the society where Golden Dawn had any influence, the role of women was to bear and raise children, and to cater to their husbands at their every whim. A woman was considered property. Later, when women strived to gain the power to vote, men were discussing whether or not women were actually human, and whether they had souls.

Crowley claiming that his Law applies to women too, might be nothing more than yet another attempt to foil his wealthy acolytes, and clearly contradicts his using women as a vessel to reach magical heights.

[sidhe]

Oh, that's most definitely a huge part of the issue. I'd have to hunt down the quote (it's either in the foreword to Liber AL or imbedded in Liber Aleph), but AC mentions how despite prophesying the New Aeon, he was hopelessly a child of the old one.

I think of it as part of Crowley's bizarre sense of humor to make a passing admission of that and then to spend much time talking about how women may be used as tools and should hope for a "man soul" when reborn. Like putting a single footnote in of "Everything I say could be really, really wrong." ;)