Witchcraft....really?

[Sage Rainsong]

Hey everyone,

I have read many websites and even a few books that have a very broad definition of witchcraft. Many peolpe classify practices such as Seidhr, Hoodoo, Rootwork, Galdr, Streghoneria and other practices as witchcraft. Do you feel that such practices can be labeled as such? Do you personally refer to these practices a form of witchcraft? Why or why not?

[ladyraven]

I personally feel that if you practice something that allows you to have an impact on reality that involves your own personal will and has elements of calling on higher powers to help carry out your will, which those do, then it's a form of witchcraft.

[Toby Stimpson]

Hmm, it's a good question. I tend to think of it this way, it can be classed (in that it is all magical use) as Witchcraft in a general sense. BUT all of these traditions and religions are different and cannot and should not be generalized as a 'path' of witchcraft.

[Cassie]

I don't think I know enough about all the paths you mention (and the many that you don't) to judge them specifically, but I think my definition of Witchcraft would indeed be quite broad.

In general I would say that any system based on knowledge and/or lore which enables the practicioner to transmute will into reality could be descibed as Witchcraft...

Hmm... I have to admit that as I am writing this, the boundries between practicing magic and Witchcraft seem a bit blurred. I will have to go away and think some more. I'm interested in what others have to say.

[RainInanna]

I also cannot say I know all of those practices and paths well enough to say. I can say I consider Witchcraft to be "low magic" - ie. that magic focused on the material world and physical change. Your mileage may vary.

[David19]

Cool topic, personally, i think those paths could, in a general sense, be considered witchcraft, as in just the use of magic, but i think a lot of those paths you mentioned and others, when understood, the word witchcraft probably doesn't describe them that well.

For example, Stregoneria is, from what i understand, practiced by Catholics, and to call them witches would probably be an insult to them, although, i think the Stregheria(sp?) of Raven Grimassi, etc would be witchcraft (or the Italian equivalent as there are some who consider witchcraft only referring to the mystical aspects of the Teutonic religion).

I've never really thought of Hoodoo as witchcraft, but then i don't know much about it, i've always thought it was more folk magic, or just Hoodoo.

Seidr and Galdr, from what i've read, refer are either shamanic (seidr) or work with the runes, i'm not sure if Heathens consider them witchcraft (maybe some Heathens could comment?).

Again, i think it really depends, of what context you're using it in, if you mean a general use of magic, then they are witchcraft, but to the practicioners of those and other paths, it might not be witchcraft (and in the case of Catholics who practicer Stregoneria, it may be an insult to them).

[Philosophia]

Hey everyone,
I have read many websites and even a few books that have a very broad definition of witchcraft. Many peolpe classify practices such as Seidhr, Hoodoo, Rootwork, Galdr, Streghoneria and other practices as witchcraft. Do you feel that such practices can be labeled as such?

I don't know these paths well enough nor do I practice them. However I think it'd be pretty much up to the individual on how they would like to be perceived and if they feel comfortable being labeled as such.


Do you personally refer to these practices a form of witchcraft? Why or why not?

I don't view them as anything because I don't know them well enough to have an opinion.

[Xirian]

Do you feel that such practices can be labeled as such?
I only feel comfortable talking about stregoneria. And I would have to say yes, that I believe some of their practices could be labled as witchcraft in a very general or broad way. I feel a more appropriate term would be "folk magic" though.


Do you personally refer to these practices a form of witchcraft? Why or why not?
I do refer to stregoneria as a form of witchcraft, because a few of the people that I know that practice it refer to it as such. However, others that I know, do not. I do not practice stregoneria, but I have been learning much about it for a while now.

I feel that stregoneria is the practice of folk magic, but sometimes can be considered a witchcraft path as well as there are those who practice it that consider themselves witches. I feel the latter is due to the fact that they also follow a pagan path.

However, I know that some practitioners would never consider themselves as witches and would scoff at that term being applied to them because they do not follow a pagan path, but they do practice what I personally consider to be witchcraft.

[Sage Rainsong]

I don't view them as anything because I don't know them well enough to have an opinion.


I also cannot say I know all of those practices and paths well enough to say.

I am sorry. I should have been more clear. I am not nessesarily talking about thoes specific practices but I was speaking in more of a general sense. Do you call practices witchcraft, even if they have other names for their specific practices.

[covenofkeys]

in otherwords do we generalise the names?

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I am sorry. I should have been more clear. I am not nessesarily talking about thoes specific practices but I was speaking in more of a general sense. Do you call practices witchcraft, even if they have other names for their specific practices.

No, I try to call the practice what the people who practice it call it. What they might think is Witchcraft and what I think is Witchcraft might be completely different.

[Sage Rainsong]

in otherwords do we generalise the names?

Yes but I don't mean that in a bad way. Some people seem to have a general definition of witchcraft and seem to equate it with magic. For example some people refer to say.... hoodoo as a form of african derived witchcraft. Did that help?

[Philosophia]

I am sorry. I should have been more clear. I am not nessesarily talking about thoes specific practices but I was speaking in more of a general sense. Do you call practices witchcraft, even if they have other names for their specific practices.

In that case, no. Unless, of course, they've explained to me that they do. Otherwise, I consider it disrespectful to put a word on a practice that the practitioners don't like.

[Sage Rainsong]

No, I try to call the practice what the people who practice it call it. What they might think is Witchcraft and what I think is Witchcraft might be completely different.

Thats true but what about the terms that you use in your own head?

[raven grimassi]

For example, Stregoneria is, from what i understand, practiced by Catholics, and to call them witches would probably be an insult to them, although, i think the Stregheria(sp?) of Raven Grimassi, etc would be witchcraft (or the Italian equivalent as there are some who consider witchcraft only referring to the mystical aspects of the Teutonic religion).

I do not think it is accurate to say that "Stregoneria" is practiced by Catholics. However, it is accurate to say that Stregoneria contains many Catholic elements. Stregheria is something different from Stregoneria. Stregheria is an older tradition and is rooted in pre-Christian European paganism. Stregoneria is a form of Witchcraft as a strictly magical system, and Italian Folk Magic is a Catholic-based form of sorcery. So in essence we are talking about three different systems (related though they may be).

This link may help: http://www.stregheria.com/what.htm



Again, i think it really depends, of what context you're using it in, if you mean a general use of magic, then they are witchcraft, but to the practicioners of those and other paths, it might not be witchcraft (and in the case of Catholics who practicer Stregoneria, it may be an insult to them).

To call an authentic practitioner of Italian Folk Magic a Witch would be offensive. But to call someone who practices authentic Stregoneria a Witch would not offend them. However, for clarity, in Italy the word Stregoneria is used to indicate negative magic, and so we are looking at the evil stereotype. This is one of the reasons why I reclaimed the older and non-Christianized word Stregheria to indicate Italian Witchcraft (in its non-Christianized form).

Ironically there are some practitioners of Catholic-based Folk Magic here in the U.S. who call themselves Witches. This is not something you will find to be the case in Italy because in Italian culture this is insulting to authentic Folk Magic practitioners. Professor Sabina Magliocco, in her article Spells, Saints, and Streghe: Witchcraft, Folk Magic, and Healing in Italy (Pomegranate Magazine) says this about disregarding the Christian elements of Italian Folk Magic:,

"But the difficulty with interpreting this practice only as a survival is that it does violence to the way practitioners perceive themselves. It is important to remember that practitioners think of themselves as Catholic."

In other words she is suggesting that to equate Stregoneria with Italian Folk Magic is to commit cultural violence against the Italians. This is another reason to distinguish between Stregoneria and Stregheria.

[Lorrie]

I think that putting labels on anything limits them too much. The most of a label I put on it is energy work.

[Xirian]

I am sorry. I should have been more clear. I am not nessesarily talking about thoes specific practices but I was speaking in more of a general sense. Do you call practices witchcraft, even if they have other names for their specific practices.
Oh, no, I just call them by their names, if I know them. If I don't know them, I don't generally call them anything until I find out more about them. Until I read information about Vodun, I called it Voodoo and someone jumped all over me. After that, I decided I would find out information before I started using labels. I'm sure some might be fine with the term Voodoo, but I try to be very careful about what I say. Of course, there have been times where I have failed at doing that and still have misrepresented some. But I do try not to.

I don't just assume that everything is witchcraft if that's what you're getting at. I would have to be in that situation to tell you what I would call something in my head, as I can't think of anything now that would fit what you're trying to get at.

[Sage Rainsong]

I don't just assume that everything is witchcraft if that's what you're getting at. I would have to be in that situation to tell you what I would call something in my head, as I can't think of anything now that would fit what you're trying to get at.

What I mean by in your head is do you think of say voodoo (or some other magical practice) is a form of witchcraft, even if you try to use appropriate words as to not offend.

[Xirian]

What I mean by in your head is do you think of say voodoo (or some other magical practice) is a form of witchcraft, even if you try to use appropriate words as to not offend.
No, not really. I only think that if I know a bit more about it. I don't just consider everything witchcraft. Like in my head, I don't automatically equate Vodon/voodoo to witchcraft. It just is what it is, vodun/voodoo, in my head. When I know more about something, I might add extra labels in my head or refer to it as something else in my head.

There are only a few things, that I have either personally practiced or know a lot about, that I might equate with witchcraft or some other label than what it is generally called. Either way, in public, I try to use the label that the practitioners use.

[BFD_Zayl]

hmm, some things can be called witchcraft, things that i do however are a bit different from witchcraft, and feels like a different energy all together

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

Hey everyone,

I have read many websites and even a few books that have a very broad definition of witchcraft. Many peolpe classify practices such as Seidhr, Hoodoo, Rootwork, Galdr, Streghoneria and other practices as witchcraft. Do you feel that such practices can be labeled as such? Do you personally refer to these practices a form of witchcraft? Why or why not?

yes i do consider them witchcraft. As an english speaking person, the word witchcraft to me best describes the many different forms of low magick practiced in various cultures, in various times & places throughout the world. Perhaps, its not the best term to use, i'm sure there are better- perhaps just the term 'folk magick' or something like that. the word witchcraft i guess, just makes it easier for me to catagories those various cultural forms of magickal practice into something that I can related to my own frame of reference.

however, i also used it in a more specific sense to indicate the traditional folk beliefs & magickal practices of the north eastern european peoples, which is a strong influence on my own path. This is actually the way in which I usually use the word.

[plumedsnake]

So is the word witchcraft to be used arbitrarily, with arbitrary meaning given it by the person using the word, or is there a general enough accepted meaning to the word. I wonder what the origins of the word is and what it was used to signify back when it was first used.

I know that in the Orisha/ifa tradition the word Iyami Aje is often translated to witch. Does that equate the Iyami with the witches in Europe. There is an association with cats. And the Iyami are supposed to fly at night which the european witches do too on broomsticks, but the Iyami don't wear pointed hats. And also they are associated with women. I think the european witchcraft is also chiefly a feminine thing.

[plumedsnake]

I personally feel that if you practice something that allows you to have an impact on reality that involves your own personal will and has elements of calling on higher powers to help carry out your will, which those do, then it's a form of witchcraft.

If it is my will to get a new job and so I get on my knees and pray to the holy virgin to help me get a new job does that make me a witch? I have a Will here and I also call on a higher power (though the idea of a higher power seems quite dodgy to me. What is higher about it? is the use of elementals and energy a higher power, or does it have to be dieties to be higher. What makes one power higher and the other not? Isn't fuel, eg petrol, a power too, and if so is it a higher power or a lower one?).

By the definition that witchcraft is Will plus power that would imply that everything is witchcraft.

[Greybird]

The word 'witchcraft' is really a useless word anymore. There are so many definitions of it that it is pretty much impossible to say that sometheing definitively is or is not witchcraft - it may be completely wrong by one definition and a perfect fit by another.

The word 'witchcraft' and 'witch' have been along long enough to have many, many established definitions, everything from the evil hag in the cave to diabolists to the modern mythological TV witch to various neopagan definitions, and like it or not, our set are latecomers to the witchcraft party.

No one definition has any 'trump' power over the others. Each one is as correct as the rest. Yes, those things are witchcraft #1 and witchcraft #7, but not even close to witchcraft #11, and certainly isn't Witchcraft-capital-W, unless you mean Witchcraft-capital-W #2.

[*Rasenna*]

I do not think it is accurate to say that "Stregoneria" is practiced by Catholics. However, it is accurate to say that Stregoneria contains many Catholic elements. Stregheria is something different from Stregoneria. Stregheria is an older tradition and is rooted in pre-Christian European paganism. Stregoneria is a form of Witchcraft as a strictly magical system, and Italian Folk Magic is a Catholic-based form of sorcery. So in essence we are talking about three different systems (related though they may be).

This link may help: http://www.stregheria.com/what.htm

Indeed, but unfortunately certain websites purposely foster misinformation and conflate Italian Folk Magic with Italian witchcraft.


To call an authentic practitioner of Italian Folk Magic a Witch would be offensive. But to call someone who practices authentic Stregoneria a Witch would not offend them. However, for clarity, in Italy the word Stregoneria is used to indicate negative magic, and so we are looking at the evil stereotype. This is one of the reasons why I reclaimed the older and non-Christianized word Stregheria to indicate Italian Witchcraft (in its non-Christianized form).

That's an important distinction if we're not to confuse things that are similar to witchcraft with witchcraft itself.


Ironically there are some practitioners of Catholic-based Folk Magic here in the U.S. who call themselves Witches. This is not something you will find to be the case in Italy because in Italian culture this is insulting to authentic Folk Magic practitioners. Professor Sabina Magliocco, in her article Spells, Saints, and Streghe: Witchcraft, Folk Magic, and Healing in Italy (Pomegranate Magazine) says this about disregarding the Christian elements of Italian Folk Magic:,

"But the difficulty with interpreting this practice only as a survival is that it does violence to the way practitioners perceive themselves. It is important to remember that practitioners think of themselves as Catholic."

In other words she is suggesting that to equate Stregoneria with Italian Folk Magic is to commit cultural violence against the Italians. This is another reason to distinguish between Stregoneria and Stregheria.

That's certainly a beginning from which to untangle this mess. I can only imagine the frustration that Folk Magic practitioners must experience when people conflate them with witches. This all reminds me of the Benandanti who claimed not to be witches, as well as Cunning Folk who claimed the same in northern Europe.

[Xirian]

Off topic: I'm starting to see a pattern here and it tickles me.
heheheheh

My apologies for the interuption.

Back to topic: I'll just say, I find it difficult to relate everything (as in other paths or religions), to witchcraft even if I feel that they do practice witchcraft. I am more apt (in my head), to equate things to paganism, rather than witchcraft.

[raven grimassi]

So is the word witchcraft to be used arbitrarily, with arbitrary meaning given it by the person using the word, or is there a general enough accepted meaning to the word. I wonder what the origins of the word is and what it was used to signify back when it was first used.

You have hit on something interesting here. Scholars in the field of Witchcraft translate non-English words into the English word Witchcraft or Witch. Therefore they are clearly making no distinction simply because of culture. We know, for example, that the earliest word translated as Witch in ancient Western literature is the Greek word pharmakis and pharmaceutes (which means someone skilled in herbal extracts or potions, an herbalist).

We also know that the Latin word saga was translated as Witch (it means a seer). In addition the Latin word venefica is translated as Witchcraft. The first written appearance of an English word for Witch shows up in the 9th century bce, and that word was wicca. It appears in a secular trial against a man accused of using magic against his neighbors.

If we break this down, the Witch was seen as an herbalist, a seer, and a magician. The earliest context appears in several ancient writings (Horace, Ovid, Lucan) where the Witch is a priestess who calls upon a triformis set of goddesses comprised of Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina/Persephone.

If you are interested here is an excerpt from my book The Witches' Craft, which goes into all of this in more depth:

The modern English word "witch" is not derived from the Latin, even though Latin terms were used in many of the witch trials in northern Europe and the British Isles. Instead, the word witch derives from the Old English word wicca (pronounced witcha) and was used to indicate a male witch. The feminine form of the word is wice (pronounced witcheh) indicating a female witch. The word wiccian, was a verb meaning to cast a spell. The earliest appearance of the word wicca is found in a manuscript of the ninth century, where it is used to indicate a sorcerer. In other words "wicca" meant an individual that used magic.

According to historian Jeffrey B. Russell, in his book A History of Witchcraft, the word witch is "ultimately derived from the Indo-European root weik, which has to do with religion and magic." Russell states that this word produced a derivative, wih-l, from which originated the Old English words wigle (sorcery) and wiglera (sorcerer). This old connection between the word "weik" and "religion and magic" in connection to the word "witch" is ignored by modern scholars, thereby helping to support their position that witchcraft was never a religion prior to modern times. However, there is a long history of witches connected to goddesses in Western literature, which itself would suggest a religious link of some type. This relationship appears in a wide range of literature from the writings of Hesiod and Homer (circa 700 BCE) to the Epodes of Horace (30 BCE) and to contemporary writers of the latter period such as Lucan and Ovid.

In the tales of these writers we find the witch Canidia calling upon Hecate, Diana, and Proserpina. We find also Circe and Medea who pray to the goddess Hecate. The list of sources linking witches with goddesses also later includes the Diocesan Council of Conserans (1280) that associated the "witch cult" with the worship of a pagan goddess, and the Council of Trier (1310) that associated witches with the goddess Diana. Even later the list includes the works of Girlamo Tartarotti (1749) who identified the Dianic cult with witchcraft, and the works of folklorist Charles Leland (1892) whose field studies revealed a practicing sect of witches worshipping the Roman deities Diana and Lucifer, the herald of the dawn. But the oldest goddess connected to witchcraft in Western literature is Hecate, who in Greek mythology was one of the Titans that helped the gods of Olympus defeat her own race.

The oldest known statuary of Hecate dates to around 430 BCE, and is described by the ancient Greek historian Pausanias (2nd century CE) as "three figures facing one another." Later Hecate is depicted as three female figures standing with their backs against a column, which they encircle. Hecate was identified in ancient times with the goddess Artemis, as noted by Aeschylus (5th century BCE) who refers to her as Artemis-Hekate in his work titled Hiket. Artemis (Diana to the Romans) and Hecate were associated with crossroads, as noted by the Roman scholar Varro (1st century BCE) who wrote of Hecate: "The Trivian Titaness is Diana, called Trivia from the fact that her image is set up quite generally in Greek towns where three roads meet."

The ancient Greek writer Hesiod makes the earliest mention of the goddess Hecate. Hesiod tells the tale of how Hecate aided the Olympic gods in their battle against the Titans. Because of this, Hecate enjoyed an elevated status among the Olympic gods even though she was never formally a member. In his work (Theogony) Hesiod speaks of Hecate as a goddess of fertility and abundance, associating her with herding and fishing. With the passage of time, Hecate would be viewed as a dark goddess of the Underworld and would become a dreaded presence. The same vilification would befall the witches over the passing centuries. As we shall see, it was the agenda of Roman officials and law makers to purposely malign witches and convince people they were dangerous company. However, the essential character of the witch developed much earlier than this and we must look further into the past.

The traditional village witch figure most likely evolved from the primitive shaman or sorcerer/sorceress character common to tribal communities. Such individuals possessed knowledge of the medicinal properties or effects of various plants, and were believed to be in touch with the Otherworld in a special way. As noted earlier the ancient Greek word for witch is "pharmakis" from which we derive the modern English word "pharmacist." Because of their knowledge and position within the community the witch figure was also most likely the keeper and transmitter of myth and lore (since they were believed to possess first-hand knowledge of the otherworld).

In Latin the word used for witch was originally saga, which indicates a fortune teller. This was later changed to venefica, misunderstood today to mean one who uses poisons, but as will shortly become clear, venefica actually indicated one who prepares love potions. The earliest laws against witchcraft dealt with the use of herbal potions employed in love spells, and the drafters felt that love spells "poisoned" the free will. However, the root word for venefica is the same as that for the word venereal, derived from the Latin vene, indicating a relationship to Venus.

Another example of the benign "vene" root connection is the word venerate, which means "to regard with heartfelt deference." In the book Phases in the Religion of Ancient Rome (University of California Press) by Cyril Bailey, the scholar mentions that Venus was originally a deity of gardens and vines, the cultivator. Putting this together, we have Venus as a goddess of plants and the Latin word venefica (replacing the Greek "pharmakis" used to indicate one knowledgeable in plants) which all suggests that early witches were in some fashion associated with the goddess Venus, if only in their dealings with love potions. There may well be more to this however, for indeed many centuries later (1375 CE) a women named Gabrina Albetti is convicted of practicing witchcraft after confessing to going out at night, removing her clothing, and worshipping the brightest star in the sky (which would actually have been the planet Venus).

The word venefica later evolved to indicate simply one who possessed knowledge of poisonous plants, and over the course of time this became its singular and specific meaning. The Roman historian Livy (1st century CE) mentions the first trial for practicing "veneficium" having taken place in the early days of Rome, and modern scholars assign the year 331 BCE to this trial. Reportedly many mysterious deaths had occurred in the community, and no doubt the officials were being hard pressed by the citizens to explain what was going on. Several women were then rounded up and accused of mixing poisons, but the women claimed their potions were designed to heal. The officials produced a potion they claimed was made by the women, and challenged them to drink it. The women agreed, but upon drinking the potion they immediately died. The citizens were content that the problem was resolved.

Whether the potions were actually made by the women or conveniently substituted with something lethal by the worried officials is another matter. Eventually almost all Latin words for poison (venom) were based upon "vene" as a root word for poison, particularly when referring to witches and witchcraft. No doubt the witch figure commanded respect but was also viewed with a healthy fear of his or her power and knowledge.

[Nemesis Descending]

I do not practice stregoneria, but I have been learning much about it for a while now.

I'm curious about something. In the Italian dictionary Stregoneria is defined as sorcery for evil intentions. Language reflects cultural understanding, and dictionaries contain the words and their meanings used by a culture. So my question is, what drew you to want to learn about evil magic? I mean no offense, I just find that fascinating.

[Xirian]

I'm curious about something. In the Italian dictionary Stregoneria is defined as sorcery for evil intentions. Language reflects cultural understanding, and dictionaries contain the words and their meanings used by a culture. So my question is, what drew you to want to learn about evil magic? I mean no offense, I just find that fascinating.
No offense taken. According to the dictionary I have read, that isn't the only definition of stregoneria, and even if it was, I would think that it would be based on the perceptions and perspective of non-practioners.

Now, to answer your question. Firstly because I do not believe that magic can be evil. Only the intentions or actions can be considered negative or positive in my world.

Secondly, any pagan religion that includes the practice of witchcraft has probably been labeled at one time or another as evil, by someone and not evil by others. Therefore, allowing me to draw my own conclusions or think for myself based on the information that I have in front of me, due to this obvious non-consensus.

Thirdly, I am interested in the entirety of pagan practices, not just the happy, everything is wonderful part of the path or belief or religion. I like to have a much larger perspective based on individuals who claim to practice such things, historical information, definitions, personal inferences, etc... But I have never been deterred from wanting to learn about a subject just because the subject is thought of as taboo or too overly pretty and happy.

1 sf
l'arte delle streghe e degli stregoni

2 sf
operazione magica compiuta ai danni di qualcuno

Dizionario Italiano (http://www.dizionario-italiano.it/dizionario-italiano.php?lemma=stregoneria)

To me this can describe any practice of any sort of witchcraft. This appears to be implying that stregoneria is the art that a witch or wizard practices and that it, also, has been connected to harmful magic. (As could be said of almost all pagan religions or paths that incorporate witchcraft into their practices, whether it's true or not.) Not that it automatically becomes harmful magic, simply because there are some who have thought it to be harmful at one time or another. This still doesn't make the practice of magic, in my eyes, evil or not. It is the intention of the individual practioner that is evil or good.

Many people believe that sex before marriage is evil, yet there are those who do not. That doesn't automatically make it an evil thing just because there are those who would place that label on it. I understand the implications of the second definition, but that doesn't absolutely prove that those who practiced stregoneria only did magic with evil intentions. It may be that that was the only thing that others could perceive or understand about it.

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion and I don't expect others to agree or believe the same as I do.

[Nemesis Descending]

No offense taken. According to the dictionary I have read, that isn't the only definition of stregoneria, and even if it was, I would think that it would be based on the perceptions and perspective of non-practioners..

The dictionary contains the common understanding among most people. Are you saying that Italian witches have beliefs or practices that are not known by non-witches in Italian culture?


I am interested in the entirety of pagan practices, not just the happy, everything is wonderful part of the path or belief or religion. I like to have a much larger perspective based on individuals who claim to practice such things, historical information, definitions, personal inferences, etc... But I have never been deterred from wanting to learn about a subject just because the subject is thought of as taboo or too overly pretty and happy

That makes sense to me


1 sf
l'arte delle streghe e degli stregoni

2 sf
operazione magica compiuta ai danni di qualcuno

Dizionario Italiano (http://www.dizionario-italiano.it/dizionario-italiano.php?lemma=stregoneria)

To me this can describe any practice of any sort of witchcraft. This appears to be implying that stregoneria is the art that a witch or wizard practices and that it, also, has been connected to harmful magic.

Um, seems like a stretch there, as the text you quoted defines stregoneria as the art of witches, which is then defined as operations to cause damage to other people.


I understand the implications of the second definition, but that doesn't absolutely prove that those who practiced stregoneria only did magic with evil intentions. It may be that that was the only thing that others could perceive or understand about it.

You’re right; it only shows, by dictionary definition, what the average person believes about the meaning and intent. So, in this regard Italian witches have beliefs that are not congruent with what the majority of people in Italy believe and perceive. Therefore it’s a cultural mismatch. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

[Xirian]

Are you saying that Italian witches have beliefs or practices that are not known by non-witches in Italian culture?
I am saying that we only know what we are told. I don't believe that everyone knows everything that goes on in my home. When a family or person is practicing in their home, I do not believe that they tell others everything. I believe there are some things that only a family may know.


Um, seems like a stretch there, as the text you quoted defines stregoneria as the art of witches, which is then defined as operations to cause damage to other people.
I see it as two definitions. Stregoneria - the art of witches, which is witchcraft as far as I'm concerned. The next definition, stregoneria - magical operations that harm others. It looks like two completely different definitions to me. If they were one definition, they should have been combined.

You're trying to say that the second definition (magical operations that harm others), is what describes stregoneria (the art of witchcraft OR magical operations that harm others), definitively. And then in turn, anyone who practices stregoneria is an evil practitioner. So the second listed definition is what stregoneria really means, and the first listed definition is simply defined by the second definition. Which doesn't make any sense to me and isn't really how dictionaries work. Both definitions can be referred to as stregoneria separately. Similar to the definition of "pagan" in the dictionary. There are several definitions and not all of them are true from everyone's perspective and vice versa, and one definition does not describe a previous definition as you have stated is the case with the two definitions I posted. They can, but they also can be viewed separately, which is why they are separated by numbers.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially an adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity.
2. A Neo-Pagan.
3. Offensive.
1. One who has no religion.
2. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.

"One who has no religion. A non-Christian.". According to your reasoning, these definitions would be a stretch not to believe, because the majority of our culture says it's so, because it's in our dictionary. Yes, that is what the majority may believe, but is it completely true? Not if you talk to some of the minority, who may believe that you can be a pagan and have no religion or you can also be a pagan and a Christian. Are their beliefs of themselves invalid because the majority doesn't agree?

I don't see it as a stretch. I see it as two definitions of the word stregoneria.


You’re right; it only shows, by dictionary definition, what the average person believes about the meaning and intent. So, in this regard Italian witches have beliefs that are not congruent with what the majority of people in Italy believe and perceive. Therefore it’s a cultural mismatch. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
I do not see it as anything other than people having different perspectives about one particular issue and some agreeing with it and some not. I don't feel that that necessarily constitutes a cultural mismatch, if some people believe one thing and others believe something else. For a cultural mismatch, I feel that you would need to have a majority of things that are looked at completely differently between a group of people. I disagree with some things that my family believes, but that doesn't constitute a familial divide or mismatch.

[Nemesis Descending]

You're trying to say that the second definition (magical operations that harm others), is what describes stregoneria (the art of witchcraft OR magical operations that harm others), definitively. And then in turn, anyone who practices stregoneria is an evil practitioner

Nah, I’m not saying it; I’m just going with the historical, literary, and definitions found in Italian writings. To date I’ve not seen any definition of stregoneria in an Italian dictionary that states, suggests, infers, or implies a positive association. I was hoping you had one.



I do not see it as anything other than people having different perspectives about one particular issue and some agreeing with it and some not. I don't feel that that necessarily constitutes a cultural mismatch, if some people believe one thing and others believe something else.

Neither do I, but I often see the opposite attitude on the Internet when it comes to Italian witchcraft.


For a cultural mismatch, I feel that you would need to have a majority of things that are looked at completely differently between a group of people

Right, like Italian witches and Italians who aren’t witches.


I see it as two definitions. Stregoneria - the art of witches, which is witchcraft as far as I'm concerned. The next definition, stregoneria - magical operations that harm others. It looks like two completely different definitions to me

That’s an interesting way to concoct the meaning a person wants the word to have, I love it! But using your analogy about the word Pagan, it can mean a person or something related to the beliefs of the Pagan (a Pagan practice, a Pagan altar). But it’s the definition of the practitioner that comes first, which then gives meaning to what he or she practices or uses. So in this light, stregoneria is the practice (not one definition of the word) and it’s what streghe do (not who they are). And it's always culturally used in a negative meaning.

[Sequoia]

I call it all, "energy work" and leave it at that.

[Xirian]

Nah, I’m not saying it; I’m just going with the historical, literary, and definitions found in Italian writings. To date I’ve not seen any definition of stregoneria in an Italian dictionary that states, suggests, infers, or implies a positive association. I was hoping you had one.
I showed you one. In fact, I showed you one that I feel was a positive association and a negative one.


Neither do I, but I often see the opposite attitude on the Internet when it comes to Italian witchcraft.
I sometimes see that the opposite attitude stems from fear. Fear of what, I have no idea. But you see it often with regards to paganism, witchcraft and religious beliefs that are not mainstream.


Right, like Italian witches and Italians who aren’t witches.
Not necessarily. I believe that one's culture isn't only about their religious beliefs. I do think that that plays a part. For instance, one can go to a culture and see that some people are Christian, while the people down the street are pagan. However, there are many cultural aspects that are the same and onlookers and even those involved may comment on the fact that they live similarly, their food tastes similar, their children look and behave similarly etc... Just because the religious beliefs aren't the same, doesn't necessarily mean their culture is completely different.

They are still Italian, whether they practice witchcraft or practice some form of Christianity, at least from my perspective.


That’s an interesting way to concoct the meaning a person wants the word to have, I love it!
No, those are the meanings that were given in the dictionary that I quoted. There were two separate definitions. One was the art of witches. The art of a witch, to me, is what that same dictionary contributes to a male witch and not a female witch interestingly enough.

stegone:
1 sf
uomo cui si attribuivano poteri soprannaturali, malefici o benefici;
(man which supernatural powers, curses or benefits were attributed;)

But when you look at the definition of a strega:

strega:
1 sf
donna cui si attribuivano poteri malefici e rapporti coi diavolo;
(woman which curses and relationships with the devil were attributed to powers;)

So as far as the first defintion of stregoneria, the art of the witches (streghe=witches or it bewitches), or male witches (stregoni (p)=male witches/stregone(s)=male witch), I would personally subscribe to the definition attributed to the stregoni since in implies that it is supernatural powers that curse or benefit. So a male can actually be seen as a practioner of stregoneria and not seen as evil, but a woman can't, as far as the dictionary is suggesting and I think that's bull and do not agree.

I'm sure the majority or the writers of the dictionary, feel that streghe and stregoneria are evil, but just because the majority says it's so, does not mean that all people subscribe to such beliefs. They might not call themselves witches or one that bewitches (streghe), but they may certainly imply that they are practitioners of stregoneria (witchcraft).


But using your analogy about the word Pagan, it can mean a person or something related to the beliefs of the Pagan (a Pagan practice, a Pagan altar). But it’s the definition of the practitioner that comes first, which then gives meaning to what he or she practices or uses.
Yes, that's how it was in the dictionary that I quoted about pagans. But it wasn't listed like that in the dictionary I quoted about stregoneria, in regards to the first definition that I posted. The art of witches. I don't believe they gave themselves the label, but they know that what they practice currently, is magic and some are willing to call themselves stregoneria practitioners, while some are not.


So in this light, stregoneria is the practice (not one definition of the word) and it’s what streghe do (not who they are). And it's always culturally used in a negative meaning.
You can keep suggesting that stregoneria is only about evil magic, but if you talk to someone who feels that they practice stregoneria and immediately imply that they are only practicing negative magic because that's what the dictionary says, I'm sure you'll be faced with some resistance.

The same with the definition of witchcraft in our dictionaries. There is the implication that it sorcery, which to many implies black magic, but that isn't the case for everyone. And the definition of a witch is worse implying a woman who practices black magic or the black arts (among other definitions). Witch and witchcraft are still derrogatory terms in many parts of the U.S., but that doesn't mean that all witches or those who practice witchcraft are evil because the dictionary may allude to that, or that those who seek to know more about witchcraft are only interested in evil connotations that are placed on witches and witchcraft, does it?

I can't explain my personal beliefs about this subject any better than what I've already done. I feel we are thread jacking and if what I've said can't be understood and you feel is way off, then you might want to try actually talking to someone who feels that they practice stregoneria, instead of me, someone who has already stated that they do not practice stregoneria, which I believe is witchcraft that is specifically related to Italian folks.

[*Rasenna*]

stregoneria is the practice (not one definition of the word) and it’s what streghe do (not who they are). And it's always culturally used in a negative meaning.

True enough, and I can say with reasonable certainty that there's no support for a positive view of stregoneria in any works of Italian history or literature. That, of course, simply presents the commonly accepted view among native Italians. It's not proof per se that such is the case, but it is the cultural understanding of stregoneria.

Stregheria, by contrast with stregoneria, does have a different literary rendering. Once example appears in the writings of Girolamo Tartarotti (circa 1751) who describes "stregheria" as a religion devoted to the goddess Diana. This distances it from the simple sorcery of stregoneria. I refer, of course, to his book Del Congresso Notturno Delle Lammie.

[Nemesis Descending]

I feel we are thread jacking

I don’t see how, the thread is about the definition of witchcraft, the labels we apply, and how we personally refer to these practices. So it seems we’re discussing all of that, or have I missed something here?


you might want to try actually talking to someone who feels that they practice stregoneria, instead of me, someone who has already stated that they do not practice stregoneria, which I believe is witchcraft that is specifically related to Italian folks.

Oh, been there done that many times


I showed you one. In fact, I showed you one that I feel was a positive association and a negative one.

I’m not trying to be argumentative but what you actually showed me was a quote “the art of stregoneria” which doesn’t mean good or bad as a statement in and of itself. Its meaning is only discerned from its description in the other passage as an operation to bring damage to other people.


I sometimes see that the opposite attitude stems from fear. Fear of what, I have no idea. But you see it often with regards to paganism, witchcraft and religious beliefs that are not mainstream.

Oh, that’s easy to understand, it’s a fear of coming up short by comparison. This type of fear can’t allow for other possibilities or alternatives.


Just because the religious beliefs aren't the same, doesn't necessarily mean their culture is completely different.

Yeah, and I know some people feel that way about Stregheria versus Stregoneria, and others don’t. Hey, go figure…


stegone:
1 sf
uomo cui si attribuivano poteri soprannaturali, malefici o benefici;
(man which supernatural powers, curses or benefits were attributed;)

But when you look at the definition of a strega:

strega:
1 sf
donna cui si attribuivano poteri malefici e rapporti coi diavolo;
(woman which curses and relationships with the devil were attributed to powers;)

So as far as the first defintion of stregoneria, the art of the witches (streghe=witches or it bewitches), or male witches (stregoni (p)=male witches/stregone(s)=male witch), I would personally subscribe to the definition attributed to the stregoni since in implies that it is supernatural powers that curse or benefit.

But taken in context with not only the common understanding but also the historical and literary background, the “benefit” referred to is about people who gain from the magic of the stregone. In other words his magic harms an enemy and so the opposing person benefits. Taking things out of cultural context confuses the meaning.


You can keep suggesting that stregoneria is only about evil magic, but if you talk to someone who feels that they practice stregoneria and immediately imply that they are only practicing negative magic because that's what the dictionary says, I'm sure you'll be faced with some resistance.

Well sure, many people do hold to their necessary illusions, but that doesn’t alter the prevailing cultural understanding.

[Xirian]

Nemesis Descending,

I've already stated my thoughts on this issue as best I can and I've answered your initial question thoroughly, based on my current understanding, my conversations with those who practice stregoneria and do not feel that it only has evil connotations, reading books and articles about Italian culture and history, reading articles about those who feel stregoneria is nothing but evil and only evil people practice it and I have come to the conclusion that it's very similar to how witchcraft is and was thought of in this country. Evil and taboo and you must be worshipping the devil if you are a pagan. If you want to keep that stereotypical thinking up, more power to you.

Just because the dictionary says that a witch is into black magic doesn't mean that's true for the majority of witches. It just means we need to change the dictionary definition of witches and witchcraft with more accurate and current information, which they have started to do by adding the definition that witchcraft is equated to Wicca. Not completely what I'd like to see, but it's a start. However, it also puts Wicca in a negative light being on the same page with the other definition I stated. So are Wiccans old women who practice black magic? I don't think so, but I believe that is what the majority may think if they look up witchcraft in the dictionary and have done no further research on the subject.

If people feel the need to continue to spread around negative information, comments and thoughts about stregoneria, then that is what the majority will believe, instead of doing their own research on it and thinking for themselves. Just because one of the two definitions of it in the italian dictionary is magical operations that harm others, doesn't mean that's really what's going on. I'm sure many have used it to harm, just as people in the U.S. have used witchcraft to harm. But that doesn't mean that they are all evil and only have evil intentions. That's the thing that people focus on because it's the most sensational and that's why witchcraft has been stigmatized as evil and horrible, in my opinion. And I feel that pagans need to stop adding fuel to the fire.

I personally do not believe that all stregoneria practioners are evil and only have evil intentions. Just as I don't believe that all witchcraft practioners on this forum are evil and have evil intentions. This is based on common sense and has nothing to do with research or dictionary definitions. If you wish to believe that stregoneria is evil and only means an evil practioner because the italian dictionary has it as one of it's definitions, who am I to stop you from believing that. But from what I know about humans, most are smart enough to know that there are always consequences to their actions. That most people are not filled with only evil intentions and are not always wanting to harm someone. You can talk to an anthropologist or psychiatrist to find that out. If they are willing to face the consequences of their actions if they choose to do magic that harms someone, then that is fine by me. It doesn't make stregoneria evil in my eyes.

You have just as many resources at your fingertips as I do, perhaps even more, I don't know. But I do know that you can go out and seek information from the source and gain a much larger perspective of the issue than I feel that you have now.

If you want to keep asking me questions about something that you should be asking of those that practice stregoneria, you aren't going to find out much, aside from my own personal views. My views are always subject to change, but right now this is what I believe. I have answered your initial question and gaining more information is up to you.

[Nemesis Descending]

Xirian,

I never stated what I personally believe about stregoneria. I just tried to discuss it in terms of its background and within its cultural setting. I can see you tire of the discussion, and so I'll stop addressing it with you.

[Malcolm]

Depends on who I'm talking to.

[Wyrmwood]

It seems to depend, somewhat, on whether or not you are talking to an anthropologist.

In the anthropologist's world-veiw, "witchcraft" has to do with destructive magical practices that threaten or disrupt the community. However, if you are a non-anthropologist, and perhaps a practitioner from a culturally diverse area such as Los Angeles or London, you may include the traditions that you mentioned under the catagory of "Witchcraft", the latter having much more positive connotations, usually being the practice of earth-based magic.:cheers:

[Glory]

Well... it's my belief that if you choose to manipulate events and reality using your own inner-strength and spirit as well as the strength and spirit of things around you... then it's witchcraft. The tools may vary, the worship and beliefs may vary, but when you get right down to it, it's witchcraft.

In terms of identity (as witchcraft does imply that the devoted practitioner is a witch, whatever that may mean), it is up to the individual. If someone tells me that they practice Voodoo and claim that it's not witchcraft, I'll believe them. If a Christian tells me that prayer, for them, is a form of witchcraft, I'll believe them.

[Tambou]

What I mean by in your head is do you think of say voodoo (or some other magical practice) is a form of witchcraft, even if you try to use appropriate words as to not offend.


Voodoo is first off a religious practice that does have magical elements to it.
But in no was different then a Christian praying. Catholics lighting candles and saying Novenas.
It saddens me that some place "witchcraft" on anything that is out of the normal or is not part of the three main religions today.