What if Christianity had never become dominant....

[David19]

This is something i'd like to hear others opinions and beliefs on, as i kind of like alternative history 'what ifs', like i've heard good things about 'In the Presence of Mine enemies' by Harry Turtledove (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451529022/002-3259113-8264856), which i think a novel about what the world would be like if Nazi Germany had won, and is from the perspective of some Jews who survived.

But, what do you think the world would be like if Christianity had never become dominant in the Roman empire, do you think ancient religions, such as the Greek, Roman, Kemetic, Norse, Celtic, etc would have carried on into the present times?.

And, what kind of impact would they have had on the world?.

Personally, I think the world would be very different, Christianity may even have survived as a mystery religion, as it was intended to be.

Do you think Islam would have developed if Christianity wasn't around (as Islam is a continuation of Christianity, Muslims see Judaism as being the first part of the 'trilogy' so to speak, Christianity the 2nd, culminating in Islam), and if so, do you think we'd know much about chemistry or any of our sciences (as the majority of what we know about science and algebra, i think, comes from Islamic scholars (we pretty much owe our scientific knowledge to the Middle East)).

And, how do you think our different cultures and social values would be?, had the Roman empire continued, do you think the Jews would have survived?.

For me, it kind of seems strange, in our age, to think that if the Hellenic culture had continued, it still may be seen as 'ok' for an old man to sleep with a teen boy (i'm not too sure how lesbianism was seen in the ancient world?).

Personally, i think it would've been kind of cool to see how the world would've turned out, like how the different religions evolved, and also, i've read that in Norse times, there were many more gods than the ones you hear about now, and it makes me curious to know what they were called, like, etc.

Part of the reason i'm interested in this, aside from the reason i gave earlier about liking these types of theories, is I love to be some kind of writer and write a story about this, kind of like what Harry Turtledove wrote.

Anyway, thanks for anything you'd like to share, as i'd really like to hear a lot of your opinions and beliefs on this.

[Arion]

Hmm, interesting thread idea. Part of me doesn't think the world would be that different, in general, but another part of me thinks that there would be some very distinct differences.

I think we'd still be as advanced scientifically, if not more so. Just look at the ancient Egyptians, they were able to build such mathematically perfect structures like t he pyramids, perfectly aligned with certain stars, without any kind of modern conveniences like technology or powerful telescopes. I think the ancients had a lot of knowledge that humanity has long forgotten. I think I read something about Christianity destroying such advanced knowledge, probably dismissing it as Pagan superstition or sorcery, not realizing until hundreds of years later it was just very advanced knowledge. I saw somethign on TV a while ago about Egyptian carvings on tombs or whatever of advanced technologies, one which especially resembled a helicopter. It makes one wonder if the ancients had our advanced technological skill, but chose not to use it because they knew how destructive it would be to the planet and to each other. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, interesting conspiracy to think about, though.

The environment might have been better off without the monotheisms. The part of the Bible (Genesis?) which states that God gave men dominion over the natural world seems to justify humans destroying the environment for our own industrial needs. My religion teacher explained that that part actually meant that God made us stewards of nature, meaning it's our job to take care of it, but I don't think that's the impression most people who read that passage get. Besides, what's to protect it from besides ourselves? At least the ancient polytheists saw the natural world as sacred to their deities, each god and goddess had his or her own sacred plants and animals.

The ancient civilizations were just as war-happy as we are today, so that would probably be the same. Humanity will always finds an excuse to fight over something, it's just in our nature. As horrible and frightening as war is, those in power seem to enjoy it. The ones who are fighting and dying in wars are probably a different story, but they're loyal to their countries.

As for the Hellenic culture and it's acceptance of older men having sex with young boys, I think that would have changed as society developed, just like so many other old practices have now become out-dated. Abortion used to be illegal, but people spoke out, precedents were established, and laws changed to suit what was actually best for the people in question. The same kind of thing would have happened for that.

We might even have better recorded history, and more knowledge of ancient religions. You mentioned the Norse gods that we don't know about anymore, and there are probably plenty of other deities lost to human awareness, as well as ritual and practice of all sorts of polytheistic religions that Christianity wiped out. It would be an interesting world to see.

[SalemWitchChild]

hm. This is an interesting question.

I think we would have eventually all (almost all) became athiests. Pagan thought was ruled by the kings and it was sorely misused. I think it's good that Christianity came about. But it eventually was also misused. I think our science would be the same. And I think some of our morals would be completely different. Such as gay rights for instance.

[David19]

Thanks for the responses, they're were both cool and interesting.

Personally, i'm not sure if i buy that ancient Egypt had the equivalent of helicopters (it sounds a little too 'aliens creating the pyramid' conspiracy too me).

Personally, i think without Islamic scholars (or really any of the Middle Eastern cultures, such as Sumerian, Babylonian, etc), our knowledge of science would be limited.

Personally, i'd also love to see what Christianity was like, in a polytheistic setting (like i said, i have an opinion that it would have remained a mystery religion (which it was intended to be)). Personally, early Christianity seemed very different (for example, they were more gay friendly, practiced magic, etc).

[Arion]

Personally, i'm not sure if i buy that ancient Egypt had the equivalent of helicopters (it sounds a little too 'aliens creating the pyramid' conspiracy too me).
Yeah, when I saw that on TV, I thought, "oh please," but it's really strange how much the images look like modern helicopters. It's interesting to thin about.


Personally, i think without Islamic scholars (or really any of the Middle Eastern cultures, such as Sumerian, Babylonian, etc), our knowledge of science would be limited.
Probably, but they might have had the same scientific discoveries even if they weren't Muslim. People of the Middle East were always a crafty bunch, it was the Sumerians who discovered the wheel, wasn't it?


Personally, i'd also love to see what Christianity was like, in a polytheistic setting (like i said, i have an opinion that it would have remained a mystery religion (which it was intended to be)). Personally, early Christianity seemed very different (for example, they were more gay friendly, practiced magic, etc).

Yeah, it would be pretty interesting to see Christians as a minority in a Pagan world.

[David19]

Probably, but they might have had the same scientific discoveries even if they weren't Muslim. People of the Middle East were always a crafty bunch, it was the Sumerians who discovered the wheel, wasn't it?

Yes, and the Sumerians also invented civilization too (the first cities, law, etc all can be traced to Mesopotamia).

Also, something interesting, my globalisation lecturer said last week, while most people think democracy originated in Athens, it actually can be traced back to Basra in Iraq (or whatever Basra was called in ancient times).

Athenians, i think if i remember correctly, developed it into a different form or something, but the actual idea comes from Basra.




Yeah, it would be pretty interesting to see Christians as a minority in a Pagan world.

I know, personally, i'd love to write a story or something about that (kind of in the same shape as the novel i mentioned about the world if the Nazi's had won).

There's a lot of books i'd love to get on early Christianity (as well as books on Sumer, occult topics (magic, etc), Hellenic beliefs, Kemeticism, etc), i guess i should win the lottery (or find a rich old guy :lol: ).

[Maggie]

Yes, and the Sumerians also invented civilization too (the first cities, law, etc all can be traced to Mesopotamia).

Also, something interesting, my globalisation lecturer said last week, while most people think democracy originated in Athens, it actually can be traced back to Basra in Iraq (or whatever Basra was called in ancient times).

Athenians, i think if i remember correctly, developed it into a different form or something, but the actual idea comes from Basra.

Civilization arose in the region because that's where the largest number of people were and that's where the rivers were and that's where it was ecologically possible for agriculture to arise. They weren't smarter or dumber than anyone else. The people of that region simply had the right elements at the right time.

The Epic of Gilgamish mentions a king who cut down a thousand trees simply to show his power. The Romans were fond of order and aerial photographs of Italy today still can show the neat little squares they imposed on the landscape.

A Greek scientist discovered the power of steam--it was used to power toys and doors to temples because there was no need for anything else and no desire for "labor-saving" devices because the educated free classes already had labor saving devices. They were called slaves and they needed to be kept busy lest they turn against their owners.

Arab Muslims were part of the trading chain that went through Timbuktu in Africa and that chain carried on the slave trade as well as goods.

The Black Death was carried into Europe through yet another trading chain--and the subsequent dearth of population is held to have given the push that lead to the Industrial Revolution. Europeans were neither dumber nor smarter than anyone else, they just didn't have enough slaves/serfs/peons anymore. Some areas of Europe lost three quarters of their population.


The Great Wall of China that is held in such high regard these days was built by forced labor and excessive taxes--so excessive that the emperor drove his people into bloody rebellion with that project.

No people was ever at a loss for a excuse for war before Christianity arose and no people would be at a loss for an excuse if Christianity had never existed. Cruelty toward those not of the group existed before Christianity and still does today--there are plenty of examples from around the world shown every day.


A more interesting question really would be is why do people think human history would be so fundamentally different if Christianity didn't exist?

[Liberty]

If it wasn't Christianity it would've been another religion. *shrugs* hard to say, things could be different or not so different from now.

I've always wondered, when they say a civilization, language, writing, etc. started somewhere, do they include the East (Asian cultures)? Sometimes I don't think they do because things don't always fit together properly, timeline wise.

[Lolair]

Yeah, it would be pretty interesting to see Christians as a minority in a Pagan world.

There has been a very good fiction book written about this by a professor of psychology at Brighton University in the UK -The Way of Wyrd by Brian Bates. A young Christian monk and scribe is sent to Anglo-Saxon Britain to learn their heathen ways so that when a mission is set up the priests will know how to approach the pagans to convert them. It's an interesting debate on Christian vs Pagan philosophy and beliefs. It has reached a degree of fame. Bates also wrote a non-fiction counterpart to his first book called The Real Middle Earth: Magic and Mystery in the Dark Ages. I recommend both books, they seem to have gone mostly unnoticed by the Pagan mainstream...

www.wayofwyrd.com (http://www.mysticwicks.com/www.wayofwyrd.com/)

[Arion]

There has been a very good fiction book written about this by a professor of psychology at Brighton University in the UK -The Way of Wyrd by Brian Bates. A young Christian monk and scribe is sent to Anglo-Saxon Britain to learn their heathen ways so that when a mission is set up the priests will know how to approach the pagans to convert them. It's an interesting debate on Christian vs Pagan philosophy and beliefs. It has reached a degree of fame. Bates also wrote a non-fiction counterpart to his first book called The Real Middle Earth: Magic and Mystery in the Dark Ages. I recommend both books, they seem to have gone mostly unnoticed by the Pagan mainstream...

www.wayofwyrd.com (http://www.mysticwicks.com/www.wayofwyrd.com/)

Oooh, thanks, they sound interesting. I'll look for them :)

[David19]

There has been a very good fiction book written about this by a professor of psychology at Brighton University in the UK -The Way of Wyrd by Brian Bates. A young Christian monk and scribe is sent to Anglo-Saxon Britain to learn their heathen ways so that when a mission is set up the priests will know how to approach the pagans to convert them. It's an interesting debate on Christian vs Pagan philosophy and beliefs. It has reached a degree of fame. Bates also wrote a non-fiction counterpart to his first book called The Real Middle Earth: Magic and Mystery in the Dark Ages. I recommend both books, they seem to have gone mostly unnoticed by the Pagan mainstream...

www.wayofwyrd.com (http://www.mysticwicks.com/www.wayofwyrd.com/)

Thanks for the recommendations, i've heard of them, and i've wanted to get them for awhile.

[David19]

Civilization arose in the region because that's where the largest number of people were and that's where the rivers were and that's where it was ecologically possible for agriculture to arise. They weren't smarter or dumber than anyone else. The people of that region simply had the right elements at the right time.

The Epic of Gilgamish mentions a king who cut down a thousand trees simply to show his power. The Romans were fond of order and aerial photographs of Italy today still can show the neat little squares they imposed on the landscape.

A Greek scientist discovered the power of steam--it was used to power toys and doors to temples because there was no need for anything else and no desire for "labor-saving" devices because the educated free classes already had labor saving devices. They were called slaves and they needed to be kept busy lest they turn against their owners.

Arab Muslims were part of the trading chain that went through Timbuktu in Africa and that chain carried on the slave trade as well as goods.

The Black Death was carried into Europe through yet another trading chain--and the subsequent dearth of population is held to have given the push that lead to the Industrial Revolution. Europeans were neither dumber nor smarter than anyone else, they just didn't have enough slaves/serfs/peons anymore. Some areas of Europe lost three quarters of their population.


The Great Wall of China that is held in such high regard these days was built by forced labor and excessive taxes--so excessive that the emperor drove his people into bloody rebellion with that project.

No people was ever at a loss for a excuse for war before Christianity arose and no people would be at a loss for an excuse if Christianity had never existed. Cruelty toward those not of the group existed before Christianity and still does today--there are plenty of examples from around the world shown every day.


A more interesting question really would be is why do people think human history would be so fundamentally different if Christianity didn't exist?

Thanks for the information, and i know that the world would still be the same or worse even if Christianity hadn't arisen, but i was kind of curious to get other peoples opinions and beliefs.

Like i said before, i know the ancient 'pagans' weren't 'perfect' - the ancient Greeks thought it was ok for an old man to have sex with a teen boy, or even kidnap a teen boy if the man was of a higher social class, but a gay person who wanted to be with/have sex with someone the same age would probably be looked down upon and made a social outcast.

In some ways, i think the world may have improved ('cause who knows, LGBT people may not have had much freedom under 'pagan' governments and religions (although in Mayan society, the nobles would get guys from the lower classes for their sons and under Mayan law, these were legal marriages).

[Maggie]

Thanks for the information, and i know that the world would still be the same or worse even if Christianity hadn't arisen, but i was kind of curious to get other peoples opinions and beliefs.

Like i said before, i know the ancient 'pagans' weren't 'perfect' - the ancient Greeks thought it was ok for an old man to have sex with a teen boy, or even kidnap a teen boy if the man was of a higher social class, but a gay person who wanted to be with/have sex with someone the same age would probably be looked down upon and made a social outcast.

In some ways, i think the world may have improved ('cause who knows, LGBT people may not have had much freedom under 'pagan' governments and religions (although in Mayan society, the nobles would get guys from the lower classes for their sons and under Mayan law, these were legal marriages).

Well, that's the thing. How would it have been improved without it? Yes, the Crusades might not have happened, but then again the Romans took over the area without the "excuse" of religion. They just wanted it. The Muslims took territory all the way into Spain, they just wanted it. One obvious difference perhaps could be used in a book--over time Christianity grew to oppose slavery. No Christianity it's possible that slavery would be more widespread than it is now. And yeah, it still does exist in pockets.