celts

[saffydaff]

can anybody in here tell me where the Celts originated ? they must have migrated to Scotland & Ireland --but where from ?:viking:

[Brightshores]

Well, there has been a lot of academic arguing over this point for a very long time now. As far as I know, archaeologists and historians have not yet come to a universal agreement.

The Celts are a group of Indo-European peoples who speak Indo-European languages. The latest consensus is that the Indo-European peoples originated in what is now southern Russia and the Caucasus, near the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas. Indo-European people, languages, and cultures then spread over a huge geographical area, and evidence suggests that the descendants of these people spread and settled areas from parts of western China to Spain, from Scandinavia to Greece, from Iran to Britain.

There have been Celtic or proto-Celtic archaeological finds over much of Continental Europe. Etymologically, the names Galicia (in Spain), and Galatia (in Turkey) are evidence that Celtic peoples were once associated with those areas (cf. the similar Celtic words Gael, Gaelic, etc.) Classical historical records suggest that the ancient Greeks were battling Celts in the 400s BC, and the Celts sacked Rome more than once.

So, I guess a very, very short answer to your question would be most likely Southern Russia, via most of Europe.

There is an additional argument over whether the Celts moved into Ireland and Scotland (and Brittany, England (and later Wales) in large numbers, or whether the Celticization of those areas was the result of a conquest and replacement of the ruling class and warrior aristocracy, not requiring the migration of large numbers of people. But, that's another story. :)

If you'd like me to point you to books or websites that you might find useful, let me know. :)

[ap Dafydd]

I think that the argument about whether "the Celts moved to Ireland, Scotland,etc" has been pretty much resolved.

The peoples of a large part of Western Europe became Celtic by virtue of having adopted the Celtic culture, either through the ruling class, through religion, through trade, or all of these means. Some Celts did move into South Eastern Europe and settled there.

Think of Celtic as referring to a culture and you won't go far wrong.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[omar]

What I have read over the years the Celts came from the southern Alai or Altay Mts.The arrived in Switzerland as early as 598 BCE. The teutons, goths, visgoths & othe Germanic tribes came from the northern Altai mts. or near there. they started coming into Europe about 400 BCE. Attilla the Hun invaded Europe in 405 AD. with his capital in eastern Hungary. They was conciderd the most barbaric of the Germanic tribes. There is some who say the Celts originated in Europe?

[Lark]

Current archealogical thinking is leaning less towards the idea of mass migrations of Celtic peoples across Europe, and more at a migration of culture and language.

If you are particular interested in the Celts of Britain, Ireland, and Scotland you might want to read "The Atlantic Celts" by Simon James that discusses this newer concept of the spread of Celtic culture.

-Lark-

[Zibblsnrt]

Current archealogical thinking is leaning less towards the idea of mass migrations of Celtic peoples across Europe, and more at a migration of culture and language.

To be fair, in terms of end results those are essentially the same thing.

[ap Dafydd]

If you are particular interested in the Celts of Britain, Ireland, and Scotland you might want to read "The Atlantic Celts" by Simon James that discusses this newer concept of the spread of Celtic culture.


Or not, if you're actually interested in the Celts and not in the work of pseudo historians who want to try to pretend that the Celts don't exist. (I agree with the reviewer who called them little Englanders who can't cope with the end of Empire!)

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[omar]

We came from nowhere & went nowhere,so we don't exist?

[ap Dafydd]

We came from nowhere & went nowhere,so we don't exist?


We came from here and we're still here! (er waethaf pawb a phopeth, as the song puts it)

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[omar]

But my family left Denbigh in 1691 & went to the Virginia Colony. Now we are in Ohio not there any more.

[saffydaff]

I havent been in to check this thread--thanks SO much for all this, its great. So --- say in roman times, most of europe was celtic then ? This is wandering OT, but who were the people who were not celt ? Who else lived in europe and also scotland/ireland ? What happened to them ?

[Faol-chù]

I havent been in to check this thread--thanks SO much for all this, its great. So --- say in roman times, most of europe was celtic then ?

This depends on what you mean by "Roman times", and what you consider to be "Europe". It may be more fair to say that 'most of WESTERN Europe as Celtic', than most of "EUROPE"...Because, of course, you still had the Romans and the Greeks, who, of course, were absolutely NOT 'Celtic'.
From about 300 years before and immediately after Julius Ceasar, yes, a lot of the people in Western Europe were "Celtic" (as in "spoke a Celtic language"). However, there were also Germanic (as in spoke a Germanic language) tribes in the area. Obviously, the Germanic language-speakers still exist (we're typing in a Germanic language NOW!).

You may find this diagram of the Indo-European Language Family tree to be helpful:

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html

Currently, the Basques are still in Europe and a couple of other relatively small groups whose language is not of Indo-European origin.

FROM http://members.freespeech.org/ehj/blessons/mowstr.html


Let us return to the classification of the languages of Europe. I should mention the non-Indo-European languages beside Basque now. The Uralic language family consists of two subfamilies, Finno-Ugric and Samoyed. There are 12 Finno-Ugric languages in Europe. Estonian, Finnish and Saami (Lapp) are languages belonging to the Finnic branch of Finno-Ugric, Hungarian represents Ugric. The common ancestor of the Finno-Ugric languages, Proto-Finno-Ugric, is said to have been spoken west of the Ural mountains, perhaps stretching into West Siberia. The Altaic language stock is represented in Europe by some Turkic languages. The Turkic group has its origins in Siberia. A very remote relationship between Uralic and Altaic seems to be possible, but is hard to prove in detail.

Now, if you are talking about who was in Western Europe BEFORE the celts that no longer exist....We have absolutely NO idea what those people would have called themselves. We have no written records about them, and so those people just be studied by observation of their material cultures. Archaeologists have given names to these cultures, based on various things, including where they found their material goods (i.e.: "Wessex culture"), and physical descriptions of some of the material goods. (i.e.: "corded ware" culture", "the Beaker People", etc.).

Note that I've been referencing language groups to explain this.

Do not confuse the change in language with a profound change in genetic stock. The Celtic languages in Europe and the Germanic languages in Europe have been 'competing' for a very long time. For example, a particular genetic line may have changed languages several times, even just between the Celtic and the Germanic, just in the time that those languages have existed in Europe. (A group of people gets 'conquered', the men are 'disposed of', and the women and children come to speak the 'other' language.)

Dr. Barry Cunliffe, archaeologist (I recommend his book, The Ancient Celts, btw) suggests that the Celtic language likely spread due to TRADE. The Celtic language was one of the languages that contained knowledge of iron-working. As the demand for iron took hold, so did the language necessary to discuss it.

I hope that helps...



This is wandering OT, but who were the people who were not celt ? Who else lived in europe and also scotland/ireland ? What happened to them ?

[Faol-chù]

I havent been in to check this thread--thanks SO much for all this, its great. So --- say in roman times, most of europe was celtic then ? This is wandering OT, but who were the people who were not celt ? Who else lived in europe and also scotland/ireland ? What happened to them ?

Just to add...
This question is a HUGE topic.
If you are interested in the pre-Celtic people of Western Europe, an excellent read is Facing the Ocean by Barry Cunliffe. Of course, it does not cover ALL of Europe, but it does discuss the people living in coastal areas on the Atlantic, and clearly demonstrates their similarities. The coastal people from place to place often had more in common with each other than the coastal people in a given area had with those inland on the same land mass.

Le meas,