If there was a core idea I hold about god

[faceperson]

I believe pantheism would fit the bill. But I am running into a problem. If everything is god, then technically there is no specific thing that is god - this means that I'm an atheist.
If everything is god, then nothing isn't god - this means I'm a monist. If everything is one thing god would be both personal and impersonal, light and dark, a god of perfect hotness and coldness. Therefore god is composed of paradox. Since nothing isn't god the very universe becomes nothing but a pile of paradoxes [i?]. Not contrasts, because there is not two things of hot and cold, they are both present. This means that I cannot reason my way to god, as all is paradox and illogical. Since it's all illogical, the path I took to get to this realization refutes itself - therefore I have to reject my argument if I am going to accept it, and if I see that it follows, I must reject it.
Does anybody see a reason why I should reject my philosophical support of all three [pantheism, atheism and monism] as a package?

[ravenscape]

Hello faceperson,

Although the word Pantheism is comprised of the two words Pan (all) and Theos (god), the actual meaning is a little more nuanced than that. It could be put this way: "The Universe" and "God" are equivalent. Or this way: "The Divine is immanent within the Universe". Or a hundred other ways. Some pantheists believe that there is nothing supernatural about the universe and that Gods are simply metaphors for attributes of ourselves and the way we relate to the Universe.

It's a big tent. There's plenty of room within the philosophy and spirituality that is Pantheism for an atheist.

[Shatril]

I believe pantheism would fit the bill. But I am running into a problem. If everything is god, then technically there is no specific thing that is god - this means that I'm an atheist.
If everything is god, then nothing isn't god - this means I'm a monist. If everything is one thing god would be both personal and impersonal, light and dark, a god of perfect hotness and coldness. Therefore god is composed of paradox. Since nothing isn't god the very universe becomes nothing but a pile of paradoxes [i?]. Not contrasts, because there is not two things of hot and cold, they are both present. This means that I cannot reason my way to god, as all is paradox and illogical. Since it's all illogical, the path I took to get to this realization refutes itself - therefore I have to reject my argument if I am going to accept it, and if I see that it follows, I must reject it.
Does anybody see a reason why I should reject my philosophical support of all three [pantheism, atheism and monism] as a package?

Get out of your head, and into your heart. God/dess is all of those things.

Shatril

[Windsmith]

Wow. My brain is whirling.

Like ravenscape says, there are a lot of different interpretations of what "pantheism" means - probably at least one for every person who identifies as a pantheist. For some, the Universe isn't a deity at all. Some of us revere it the way others revere a deity, because it is the force that is greater than ourselves (or, as Cheddar has so wonderfully phrased it elsewhere, "You're not god, but you might as well be"), but we don't think of it the same way a deist thinks of their god. Everything may be god, but not a god. Pantheism and atheism are not incompatible philosophies, but for those of us who hold pantheism as a spirituality more than a philosophy, the difference is in the direction you tilt your head.

I'm no rhetorician (as should be apparent), but I know good debate when I see it. You might be interested in "Pantheist Age" (http://www.paxdoraunlimited.com/PantheistAge_ModernPantheism), in which a very cool guy known as Paxdora goes into the logic of pantheism/atheism.

[faceperson]

Thanks for the replies folks. Thanks to windsmith's article link I feel that I have found a fellow voice in the labyrinth. It turns out Spinoza also defended monism, but as to why the article said that he leaned toward spiritual pantheism is not clear in his arguments, it may have been circumstantial evidence that provoked that classification. [He lived in the 1600s in Europa, guess what he had to explain himself to?]
I'm not sure what you are driving at Shatril...but thanks for the post.
So I'm divided, I want to believe in the supernatural because it has been programmed into my psyche from an early age to put faith in such things, but that tenet seems indefensible and has little explanatory power or sustainance past simple inclusion.
So, my view is blah blah blah because blah blah blah or some such public self validation.
The harder I look at reality the more I see of myself, and that is surely an error. If I was god I'd have a fine bottle of a legal yet mildly controlled substance right about now, or satori, one of the two.

[Tranquility]

Mm.. *Ponders a barely legal intoxicant along with Satori*

I think that issues really arise when we try to label and categorize everything. I find that it's sometimes better not to try to put everything into neat little tame boxes that are save-alls.

[faceperson]

True, but sometimes we want to communicate. Language is better than grunts and moans, but it still doesn't do the things we want it to do. My pragmatism often leads me to anger or silence...that's why I'm often not on internet bulliten boards. Meh.
Take it easy.

[Tranquility]

Definitely, and I know what you mean. My problem is that I get frustrated as hell when I try to even explain things with words, because some things simply can't be described with a physical vibration.

[ravenscape]

There's a lot of undiscovered country outside all the boxes. That's where many, maybe even most, of us human beings live. Sometimes you can't see that unboxed space until you inspect a lot of boxes and discover they don't hold you.

[faceperson]

Completely true - this has been my state of affairs for...five years now...wow, not sure where that got off to. I'll be right back, seems like I lost a few years.

[Windsmith]

My problem is that I get frustrated as hell when I try to even explain things with words, because some things simply can't be described with a physical vibration.Humankind would be in a much better condition if we did more of our communicating through interpretive dance. _travolta_

[Thunder]

Humankind would be in a much better condition if we did more of our communicating through interpretive dance. _travolta_While I agree in the larger sense, it might be inconvenient in traffic.

[cheddarsox]

I don't think English has much language that describes a pantheistic conception of Divine, because it has no history with such. The language has words to describe that which has been part of the cultures which use it. Most English speaking cultures are not pantheistic.

When we come up with terminology that describes what we believe and experience, then it will exist. I think it is pretty much that simple...oh, and we have to have a reasonable percentage of the population use the term the same way.

We're in that akward stage right now, but it's coming along.

I have a term for what I understand about the Divine, but if I use it no one has a clue what I'm talking about, because I chose a term to describe what I believe. When enough like thinking folk start using similar language...it'll happen. Or if one pantheist becomes famous enough to have their terminology picked up on.

My term translates to "The All, and the manner in which the All operates", but it is short. I'll bet several of us have some personal shorthand we use.

Let's write a book!

[faceperson]

Soooo....how do asian cultures that use non-alphabetic characters introduce new things like 'pikachu'?











































On another note....ATHAET)(ADNADR)! GAAAAAAHHHHH :spaceman: spoon trip turkey glob son of flig arghtthetttttttppfhty. AAaaaaaaaaaaaa....raaahaaaaahahahahahaha...ha.... I'm trapped inside again cause of the dang wind and ice aaaaaaaghghghg... sigh I need a punching bag I get distracted in the meat department the music....the music the faces of apathy repressed so far anything past now is immediately shoved aside by flavor little tommy coming home with his leg blown off because somebody felt god told them to kill the whitey and because god told our president he was doing our work nothing but swimming in our own mental and spiritual feces while we grin and shovel another load onto our own heads as we dump our load of plastics into the very ground we depend on for survival at least little tommy has reduced caloric needs because that will soon be a trait for survival when the earth says no more i want to go home where my feet feel safe i call for mandatory sterilization to match the minds of any gluttons that raven the fruits of the soil that gift of nature now demanded :rant: