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MacMorrighan
March 12th, 2007, 03:26 PM
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A (Preliminary) Review: A History of Witchcraft: Sorcerers, Heretics & Pagans, by Jeffrey B. Russell & Brooks Alexander (Second Edition), Thames & Hudson, 2007.

J.B. Russell is Prof. of History at the University of California, Santa Barbara; and this present edition comprises a 1980 text that allegedly served as one of Ronald Hutton's primary consenting sources while writing his foundational polemics—now considered relatively obsolete by the nature of Historical quantifications, due to "current" revelations (these subsequent texts are largely in the process of being superseded): The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy (http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/hutton_review.html) [Blackwell, 1996] and The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft [Oxford University Press, 1999]. For what it's worth, Ronald Hutton set the stage and introduced Paganism as an academically respectful religion, thus removing it from the realm of "New Age non-sense" at your local bookstore. However, many that are opposed to Wicca (specifically) and Paganism (in general) have deliberately pointed to Hutton's texts, empirically, as they shout, "I told you so—it's a made-up, fake, religion!" Be that as it may, and despite Hutton's personal reservation, his early work has set new standards of rigor in the present debate concerning the origins of Paganism and its likely antiquated genesis—even forcing us to raise our standards of evidence, and searching out those scholars which vastly disagree from across the pan-academic stage (particularly from Continental Europe). As a historiography I found this text to be brilliantly even-handed and generally objective; by stark contrast, Hutton's polemics are usually extremist and right-wing in presentation. For an example of what I mean, consider that while Ronald Hutton entirely rejects any notion of a "Celtic" Cult of the Head (as discerned by Prof. Anne Ross); Prof. Miranda Green, on the other hand, takes a middle-of-the-road approach, taking it as a distinct plausibility rather than rejecting it due to some percieved lack of "evidence".

In this new publication—almost 30 years since its initial inception—Mr. Russell offers 2 new chapters concerned with current Paganism written by his present collaborator and Witch (Brooks Alexander), as well as a new Introduction and concluding-chapter.

Granted I am still in the process of reading this text (it was an early birthday present) I immediately noticed some astonishing anomalies that troubled me, albeit there is also much to enjoy and mull-over in one's gray matter. However, the latter is staunchly over-shadowed by his seeming lapse in discernment, and his apparent "ignorance" of recent evidence.

Russell habitually behaves throughout each controversial treatise of his recent edition almost like a verbally and emotionally abusive loved one who tenderly says, after the fact, "I love you." For example, when writing of Charles Leland's investigation into an Italian witchcraft cult (Aradia, or The Gospel of the Witches), he pejoratively regards his methodology by denoting it as "research" within quotation marks replete with sarcasm. However, in the same breath he states that Leland's practices were the scholastic norm of his day. So, why criticize him so harshly and gratuitously at the onset? Like my initial analogy, this bears a disingenuous tone. It is important to note that Charles Godfrey Leland was able to gain access into groups and cultures that his peers could not—a fact, and talent, that is frequently forgotten when he is maligned as the victim of duplicitous local inhabitants (a stance more than generally adopted by the present authors). Russell also implies that much of the MS. presented to Leland may have been written by his informant, Maddelena—I find this grossly unsatisfactory; for this to make much analytical sense Maddelena would have had to have been a literary prodogy, which is entirely unlikely given her provincial and impoverished stature, as well as education. Moreover, these documents are possessed of a substance, just below the thin veneer of their documentable sources, that speak of an older tradition that simply does not fit the imaginings of an entire generation of skeptical scholarship. Furthermore, we note that much of the Aradia text is presented in verse, which we know is a mnemonic device employed by cultures throughout antiquity as a means of preserving lore and local tradition.

Some other minor, although no less misleading, errors are peppered throughout this text, including a caption for a late 15th-century woodcutting depicting perceived "witches" shape-shifting in an effort to transvex towards a Sabbat. However, he apparently conflates the generic term of "shape-shifting" with the specific denotation, "lycanthropy", which refers to the transmogriphication of an individual into a wolf, hence the lycan- root (anyone who's seen the film Underworld will certainly be aware of this). While, further on, he relates that throughout Europe, by the 12th-century, the entire continent had been converted to Christianity. This polemic is severely questionable, although, more worrying, it's extremist and simplistic to a fault; it has been advanced that antiquated paganism survived throughout large swaths of Europe until the 15th-century, and easily as late as the 17th- and 18th-centuries (though the 19th-century is not entirely off the radar, due to suggestions from other scholars). Albeit the presentation Ronald Hutton relates below is debatable (and mere opinion, for we note dozens of scholars that present the history of Paganism far differently: the Pagans fought hard for their religions against the Christians to a late date; Hutton does not seem to allow for this), it serves to advance a case contrary to Russell's preferred position:


"...paganism as a formal system of religion vanished from Mediterranean Europe after the sixth century, from the western and northern parts of the continent after the eleventh, and from the north-eastern portions after the fourteenth. Among the Saami nomads of Scandinavia, it may have lingered into the seventeenth" [Witches, Druids and King Arthur, 2003: 137].

As a new edition to an antedated text from 1980 it is simply behind the times—at least behind the last 8 years of subsequent, and ground-breaking, research! Where's the foundational work of Phillip Hesselton, and even Doreen Valiente (more on that momentarily) or Donald Frew's counter-thesis, as well as Ronald Hutton's latest treatise that was briefly quoted above (he seems to use his Triumph of the Moon as a sort of "cut-off date")? Similarly, I was astonished (and not in a pleasant way, I can assure you) at this same discrepant lack throughout Margot Adler's recent up-date of her highly acclaimed occult classic, Drawing Down the Moon [Penguin Books, 2006]; as a Gardnerian High Priestess, and scholar in her own right, she should have been blatantly aware of these recent paradigm-shifting revelations! I find it problematic to note that Russell's and Brook's recent edition has apparently been justified to one side of a polemic that it is presently being re-evaluated. As a result, this title does not show the same insight and current for-thought (in this regard) as his previous texts [eg. The Devil].

Modern Pagans, and lay-readers of polemics by historians (for polemics are all that seem to exist, these days), need to be taught how to use critical thinking skills to spot clearly unsubstantiated material when they obstinately appear! While, scholars that make these blatant statements need to be censured for it, rather than given a green light, "just because it's popular and endorsed" or "scholastic suicide" to reach a differing opinion! Moreover, it has come to my attention that some scholars, because they tend to ignore a lot of evidence, actually make a habit of mischaracterizing other works and scholars, as though those writings and scholars really state something contrary than what's actually in print (these mendacious academic elites can't be bothered with the facts; after all, they've made up their collective mind). Another ailment that needs to be remedied is teaching folks how to spot opinion that is put forth as fact (Ronald Hutton happens to illustrate this remarkably in his The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles (http://asphodel-long.com/html/pagan_religions.html)). As an example, Mr. Hutton states in his The Triumph of the Moon that no where throughout antiquity was any goddess worshipped as the source of geographical and human fecundity via the hieros gamos, or "sacred marriage" rite. This is opinion only—eminent Sumerologist, Samuel Noah Kramer comes to an entirely diametric, and well-founded, conclusion in his The Sumerians .

In the initial edition of this text, from 1980, Russell admonishes the existence of "Old" Dorothy Clutterback as a figment of Gerald Gardner's fertile imagination. Incensed by this unfounded accusation, Doreen Valiente (my personal hero) published an account (in Janet & Stewart Farrar's The Witches' Way in 1984) in which she located the marriage- and death-certificate of "Old Dorothy", thus proving her existence! These current revelations in consideration, Mr. Russell has made no attempt to rescind his earlier declamation; rather, "Old Dorothy" is merely portrayed as a leading figure in Gardner's personal assertions (here presented as mythical), with no mention pertaining to her factual existence. This is ultimately misleading.

Missing, also, is the ground-breaking work of Professors Carlo Ginzburg (Italy), Eva Pocs (Hungary), Emma Wilby (Britain), Phillipe Walter (France), Giuseppe Bonomo (Italy), Bengt Ankarloo (Sweden), Gustav Henningsen (Sweden), Tekla Dömötor (Hungary), Gabor Klaniczay (Hungary) and Claude Lecauteux (France), and an army of other note-worthy scholars. The latter, for what it's worth, is Prof. of Medieval Society, Civilization and Literature at the world famous academic institution, The Sorbonne, at Paris, France. Most scholars throughout continental Europe have reached the general consensus that at the heart of medieval witchcraft belief is endemic "shamanistic" antecedents to one extent or another that would certainly support certain variants of the Murray thesis—a thesis that needs up-dating for she lacked a shamanic language with which to refine her arguments, and some of her assertions certainly were incorrect [eg. Joan d'Arc]. Anything less, in the words of Emma Wilby, "is untenable". But Russell follows in the foot-steps of Ronald Hutton throughout this present edition by failing to acknowledge this growing (near-unequivocal) body of European scholarship. This failure, or relative ignorance, appears during Russell's historiographic account of the four most prominent "interpretations of European witchcraft [that] are current". Eva Pocs, for example, drew upon a sample of 2,000 witch-trials (by far the largest study to date) and found that medieval witchcraft belief, and those reported traditions, have turned out to be inseparable from local shamanic traditions. Prof. Pocs enduring contribution is generally under-rated, also—had it not been for her, a great many witchcraft trial documents would have gone untranslated into the English language for the explicit use of scholars world-wide!

I can only describe the constant absence of these major contending-theories from continental Europe throughout general works by leading American and British scholars on the subject of witchcraft as "a conspiracy of silence", perhaps even as a desire for "academic subjugation" (a monopoly, if you will)! (I don't know about you, but I certainly don't like feeling as though I've had the fleece pulled over my eyes!) If you would like to read some important questions concerned with modern Pagan research, as well as some equally important counter-arguments, please navigate the following well thought out site (http://www.egregores.org/). While, at the same time, Prof. Carlo Ginzburg is generally under-rated by academia for his contributions; in fact, in a polemic by both J.B. Russell and one Norman Cohn (according to Prof. Ginzburg in the English preface to his I Benandanti, 1966), these historians have blatantly mischaracterized his work! One might reasonably argue that such a blatant absence as these presently discussed "values" in the equation of medieval witchcraft is a form of "thought reformation" on behalf of the academic "ruling elite".

However, Russell (at least in this present text) wisely shows more sensitivity towards the Murray thesis than is usually allowed in academic circles, and distances himself from those that claim it has collapsed entirely with all its plausible variants; such an unyielding position levied against Murray's work is bunk, pure and simple, for more well-grounded authorities have shown a disdain towards these extremist positions! Hence, it is worth bearing in mind what historian Peter Kingsley once (wisely) said, "Academically, doubt is a virtue. It is wise to be cautious, virtuous to allow for different points of view. The problem arises when this attitude hardens: then doubting becomes a certainty in itself, and we forget the importance of doubting our doubt." Ah, how soon we forget the contributions of our predecessors, eh?

As a result, another quibble is that he endorses, without qualification, the work of Norman Cohn, who has been thoroughly debunked! His often cited text is usually referred to as that which has "closed the door" on the debate surrounding the Murray thesis. But, is this an accurate appraisal? The late Prof. Cohn, for what it's worth, is extremist and unprofessional in his mendacious pedantry (albeit I use the latter term loosely, because he plays fast and loose with the rules). In his polemic, Europe's Inner Demons, it has been proven (http://www.vaccines.plus.com/Murray%20and%20the%20Professor.html) that Cohn presented demonstrably false statements about Margaret Murray by simply comparing his allegations alongside what she actually wrote (one would reasonably assume that a scholar, clearly as passionate as he, should have been aware of the source-material documented in The Witch-Cult in Western Europe and The God of the Witches). His conclusions scholars love to talk up; however, the evidence in question usually gets swept beneath the proverbial "rug". Why? Because one might not believe them, otherwise—that's why! When this is taken into account with his earlier mischaracterization of Carlo Ginzburg (a model tragically followed by a slew of American and British scholars, including Ronald Hutton in his Triumph of the Moon and an article published through the British journal, Folklore (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_1_111/ai_62685559)) a pattern of behaviour begins to emerge which must not go unrecognized! Cohn also portrays blatant ageist and sexist tactics—discriminatory as they are—as a means through which he may entirely disregard a scholar, thesis, or otherwise excellent evidence. He complains that Murray had the audacity to write anything on the subject "because she was nearly sixty!"; while he dismisses entirely uncoerced testimony of several woman who stated that they traveled to the Sabbat—generations before the Inquisition was anywhere near its apex!—of being senile old women, because he can't be bothered with the facts that question his argument. In so doing, he apparently takes a page directly from The Canon Episcopi that fully denounced such accounts as dillusional. This relatively harsh criticism probably arises from Cohn's post-WWII sympathy towards the Holocaust victims and its survivors (being, himself, of Jewish heritage), which he believed to be the result of irrational Nazi fears (for which there is ample suggestion). However, at the time of writing, Gardnerianism was greatly expanding and making headlines, and Cohn simply saw it as another form of "the irrational" (a concept he viewed as proto-Nazi in essence) or a superstitious cult (to which he was deeply opposed as a rationalist); indeed, he probably viewed it as his duty to prove its claims an impossibility, without which, it would become (he hoped) impotent and not pose any psycho-sociological harm to relevant Western culture. No matter how one slices it, it appears to have been a simple "knee-jerk reaction" on his part.

However, it is important to point out that Mr. Russell diverges from Hutton on some relatively key issues. For example, while Russell (in the present work, and his earlier monograph The Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Primitive Christianity [Cornell University Press, 1977]) fervently acknowledges that the medieval iconography of the Devil directly stems from known images of pagan gods, such as Pan. Ronald Hutton, on the other hand (in Triumph of the Moon), rejects such assertions as rubbish for which there is no evidence (a firm thesis he would like us to believe); or otherwise no academic literature on the topic has been sufficiently published (though he does not, strangely, cite Russell as an immediate antithesis to his hard-nosed conclusions when it doesn't seem to suit his agenda). If one has only read Hutton's text on the topic, of course he would present an iron-clad case; but it must be taken into consideration that there is a relative corpus of academia that does—and should—disagree with his (often "narrowly-informed") assumptions. I say "narrowly-informed", not as a term of abuse, but as a matter of fact. In a response Hutton wrote to Asphodel P. Long's review of his text The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles (linked above), he acknowledged that he didn't know enough about the topic before he wrote the book and has been yearning to re-write it for several years. However, it has recently been brought to my attention by an Alexandrian H.P. from New Zealand (upon checking Hutton's sources), that Ronald has been mendaciously mischaracterizing scholars throughout his presentation of The Triumph of the Moon—it turns out that many of those scholars (at least those published in languages in which my New Zealand informant is fluent) which Hutton claims agree with him (particularly in that there was never any whiff of pagan survivalism), in reality, staunchly disagree with him, and present evidence to the contrary (many of them conclude that there was, in fact, pagan survivals throughout Europe regardless of its Christianization). So, one must wonder, of course, why he has not been censured for this; or at least why scholars familiar with these cited works have not flooded peer-reviewed journals and stated that he has not been honest with his readers as a matter of fact? Perhaps it was because Paganism was simply not (yet!) considered intellectually, or academically, respectible at the time in which The Triumph of the Moon was initially published. Be that as it may, Ronald's views are to be regarded as extreme and atypical when compared to the wider breadth of scholarship written on the topic of paganism and witchcraft. Furthermore, it's a shame that most modern readers do not know what Prof. Morton Smith knew (how liberating it would, otherwise, be!), that "...many scholars reject on principle all conjecture except their own" [emphasis mine].

As a new edition (even lavishly illustrated with re-prints and brilliant photographs!), I personally found it to be an inadequate up-date; it was lacking in current revelations and leading research—essentially it was a drastically missed opportunity to present an up-dated historiography concerned with the present revelations regarding the history of Gardnerianism and medieval witchcraft belief. Indeed, this text brings to mind a well-known quote by Upton Sinclair (as do all glib "professional" scholars, for that matter, who lack the courage to see the forest for the trees in their zealous denial): "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." (Just call me cynical and disillusioned!) Sadly, and to reiterate, there is a double-standard enshrined within academia with which I am phenomenally uncomfortable (for obvious reasons)! Be that as it may, this book still remains a text every Witch ought to posses on his or her personal library shelf (even if you have come to your own conclusions based upon recent evidence and research, which everyone should!). However, as I plow my way through this text, I am sure that I will continue to find more to love and recommend within it, such as his fascinating presentation regarding the etymology of the word "witch"—it bears distinct magico-religious denotations, despite the pleas of certain scholars! Or the truly ubiquitous nature of diabolical witch-fugure beliefs throughout antiquity—scholars can reach no firm conclusions about how to best quantify these re-occuring leitmotivs. Unfortunately, regardless that a respective text wisely denotes itself as "[U]A History...", lay-readers and Pagans alike, somehow, seem to intuitively respond as though it actually reads "The History" (assuming the definative article), simply because it was written by someone with a Ph.D.—a grievous mistake! I hope, one day,to see it remedied; but until then, I must be content to express the leanings of other scholars throughout academe. (Meanwhile, I am presently multi-tasking through Peter Berresford Ellis's Celtic Women: Women in Celtic Society and Literature [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1996] and T. W. Potter's & Catherine John's Roman Britain: Exploring the Roman World [The University of California Press, 1992]—I might have a review for them, shortly. Gods, I love the Half Price Bookstore!) Enjoy and Happy Reading!

MacMorrighan
March 17th, 2007, 11:13 AM
Jeeze, no comments re: my lengthy, and well-research, Review? C'mon! What have ya' got to lose besides your pre-conceived notions? *G* SilverDrake, I thought that you of all people might particularly enjoy it! Heh heh heh...

Ben Gruagach
March 18th, 2007, 09:48 AM
Jeeze, no comments re: my lengthy, and well-research, Review? C'mon! What have ya' got to lose besides your pre-conceived notions? *G* SilverDrake, I thought that you of all people might particularly enjoy it! Heh heh heh...

Personally I can't really comment until I've got a copy of the new edition and have read it myself. You've also written quite a long review there so unfortunately you'll probably find that some simply will give up on reading it and will move on to other threads.

There will probably be more comments as people delve into your extensive review and get a chance to read the book themselves to compare your impressions with their own.

Lolair
March 18th, 2007, 11:38 AM
I read the lengthy review and I have to say THANK YOU! I do hope people read your entire review so that they can get a more objective viewpoint on the "scholarly" authors out there - they're just people too who happen to have university degrees, but they also have biases, opinions, political objectives, or are just plain pig-headed. I always try to read up on an author before reading their books so I know what to expect and what to and not to take seriously.

Loved the review
Slainte!

SoulFire
March 18th, 2007, 03:12 PM
A (Preliminary) Review: A History of Witchcraft: Sorcerers, Heretics & Pagans, by Jeffrey B. Russell & Brooks Alexander (Second Edition), Thames & Hudson, 2007.

What a fantastic review! Thank you.


As a result, another quibble is that he endorses, without qualification, the work of Norman Cohn, who has been thoroughly debunked! His often cited text is usually referred to as that which has "closed the door" on the debate surrounding the Murray thesis. But, is this an accurate appraisal? The late Prof. Cohn, for what it's worth, is extremist and unprofessional in his mendacious pedantry (albeit I use the latter term loosely, because he plays fast and loose with the rules). In his polemic, Europe's Inner Demons, it has been proven (http://www.vaccines.plus.com/Murray%20and%20the%20Professor.html) that Cohn presented demonstrably false statements about Margaret Murray by simply comparing his allegations alongside what she actually wrote (one would reasonably assume that a scholar, clearly as passionate as he, should have been aware of the source-material documented in The Witch-Cult in Western Europe and The God of the Witches). His conclusions scholars love to talk up; however, the evidence in question usually gets swept beneath the proverbial "rug". . . .

If one has only read Hutton's text on the topic, of course he would present an iron-clad case; but it must be taken into consideration that there is a relative corpus of academia that does—and should—disagree with his (often "narrowly-informed") assumptions. I say "narrowly-informed", not as a term of abuse, but as a matter of fact. In a response Hutton wrote to Asphodel P. Long's review of his text The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles (linked above), he acknowledged that he didn't know enough about the topic before he wrote the book and has been yearning to re-write it for several years. However, it has recently been brought to my attention by an Alexandrian H.P. from New Zealand (upon checking Hutton's sources), that Ronald has been mendaciously mischaracterizing scholars throughout his presentation of The Triumph of the Moon—it turns out that many of those scholars (at least those published in languages in which my New Zealand informant is fluent) which Hutton claims agree with him (particularly in that there was never any whiff of pagan survivalism), in reality, staunchly disagree with him, and present evidence to the contrary (many of them conclude that there was, in fact, pagan survivals throughout Europe regardless of its Christianization). So, one must wonder, of course, why he has not been censured for this; or at least why scholars familiar with these cited works have not flooded peer-reviewed journals and stated that he has not been honest with his readers as a matter of fact?

It seems most all 'debunking' of Murray stems from Cohn. Hutton makes the same error of judgement that Russell makes in using Cohn as a source to criticize Murray, and I have read that although a colleague made him aware of Cohn's agenda (apparently, Hutton didn't do any fact-checking on his own), Hutton chose to go along with the status quo nevertheless. I, myself, compared the quotations from Murray, via Hutton, to Murray's own text and found (not to my surprise) that Cohn/Hutton were wrong, and they had, in fact, misquoted Murray! It's amazing to me that people treat Hutton as the 'final word'.

But I was suspicious of Hutton's accuracy from the start when he said that Starhawk had received Gardnerian training. *snort* :eyebrow: :noway:

It seems to me that 3/4 of the Pagan community have swallowed Hutton's work whole, just as they did with Aidan Kelly, without doing any further reading or research into the source materials--or the authors--on their own. Sad. And I've even encountered a large number of Pagans who have heard of Hutton, but not read his work (much less others), yet they blindly base their beliefs on his conclusions, secondhand. Have Wiccan and Pagans lost the ability to think critically for themselves?!

It's a shame more Neo-Pagans aren't familiar with Guinzburg (The Night Battles is a great read!) and Pocs. Even Russell, with his faults, has some interesting insights, but I have encountered Pagans who dismiss him merely because he was a Christian thealogian (supposedly).


Be that as it may, this book still remains a text every Witch ought to posses on his or her personal library shelf (even if you have come to your own conclusions based upon recent evidence and research, which everyone should!). However, as I plow my way through this text, I am sure that I will continue to find more to love and recommend within it, such as his fascinating presentation regarding the etymology of the word "witch"—it bears distinct magico-religious denotations, despite the pleas of certain scholars! Or the truly ubiquitous nature of diabolical witch-fugure beliefs throughout antiquity—scholars can reach no firm conclusions about how to best quantify these re-occuring leitmotivs.

This is what I love best about Russell. He almost seems sympathetic to the medieval Witch, and his fascinating theories about the etymology of the word witch should be studied by all Wiccan, Witches, and Pagans. Most Witches today recite (as if by rote) weik-"to bend" as the best etymology, but seem unaware that weik has other meanings, as Russell cites. In Witchcraft and the Middle Ages (an interesting read, though somewhat outdated), he illustrates the magico-religious definition using a Venn Diagram! (I'm not sure why this facinates me so, except that I studied statistics in college--which involves making a lot of Venn diagrams--the only math class I've ever enjoyed. ;) )

I think many Pagans also dismiss or seem unaware how valuable Doreen Valiente's works really are! She seems to be treated merely as Gardner's "ghost writer" or something, but she was actually a great researcher herself!

Thanks again for this well-written review. I had just looked at the book at Powell's the other day and was tempted to buy it. Now, I'll think twice.

Ben Gruagach
March 18th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Ronald Hutton has addressed the criticisms about Cohn -- it seems that people aren't aware of this. He basically stated that his dismissal of Margaret Murray's witchcraft theories was not dependent upon Cohn but was the result of examining a lot more work on the subject besides Cohn (and which incidentally also included checking Cohn's sources for verification.)

http://www.vaccines.plus.com/Murray%20and%20the%20Professor.html has the debate laid out for those who want to read it, including both Jani Farrell-Roberts' article critical of Hutton, Hutton's responses to her criticisms, and their subsequent debate/discussion. Hutton addresses the Cohn criticisms pretty directly.

Hutton is certainly a fallible human just like the rest of us, but the demonizing of him (or anyone) is something that we should be reluctant to participate in no matter how much we might personally disagree with his statements.

SoulFire
March 18th, 2007, 04:50 PM
Ronald Hutton has addressed the criticisms about Cohn -- it seems that people aren't aware of this. He basically stated that his dismissal of Margaret Murray's witchcraft theories was not dependent upon Cohn but was the result of examining a lot more work on the subject besides Cohn (and which incidentally also included checking Cohn's sources for verification.)

Though I have also read that many of the other sources rely on Cohn. So we're back to square one. And if he did check Cohn, why then did he use Cohn to discredit Murray??? But I'll definitely check out the links you've provided (and I'd like to see a list of the other sources Hutton claims he referenced).

Peace like a river... :)

MacMorrighan
March 19th, 2007, 12:56 AM
I read the lengthy review and I have to say THANK YOU! I do hope people read your entire review so that they can get a more objective viewpoint on the "scholarly" authors out there - they're just people too who happen to have university degrees, but they also have biases, opinions, political objectives, or are just plain pig-headed. I always try to read up on an author before reading their books so I know what to expect and what to and not to take seriously.

Loved the review
Slainte!

Thank you, Lolair! Indeed, you hit a respective nail on the head: there are HUGE problems within academia, presently, which are going completely ignored: It has become politicized! Moreover, one thing that many people from both extremes (and those in the middle) seem to be picking up on by reading between the lines, is that Hutton is a HUGE Patriot, and an equally HUGE Anglophile-- both are biases in their own right, and need to be acknowledged as such. But, don't expect the academic institution to acknowledge tis any time soon (especially the British!).

However, while I'm thinking about it, Hutton seems to ruthlessly use Frazer as a whipping boy, or a scape goat! Just because Frazer wrote that big book, and because he has fallen in disrepute amongst scholars (it's note-worthy that the Protistant branch of academe was the objective and rational branch, whereas Hutton and the current scholastic orthodoxy are, admittadly, not of this school!), Hutton has a habit of dismissing anything that Frazer wrote about as being a Frazerian modern Pagan myth! A prime example is the Dying-and-Rising God: Despite the fact that there are countless Gods that "die" and later "rise" from that state of death, Hutton asserts that anyone calling such a deity that is simply following Frazer (period), rather than taking an actual look at the evidence. He would seem, at least to me, to be too eager to write every such instance off! And, sadly, modern Pagans have taken up this eronious standard as though it portrays academic rigor (I read an article a few years back that sought to demollish any strip of evidence for any D/R God, claiming that it was ALL Frazerian, and an account of Pagans pouring Christian content into a Pagan mould!).

Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan

MacMorrighan
March 19th, 2007, 01:48 AM
What a fantastic review! Thank you.

Thank you so much for your kind words...


It seems most all 'debunking' of Murray stems from Cohn. Hutton makes the same error of judgement that Russell makes in using Cohn as a source to criticize Murray, and I have read that although a colleague made him aware of Cohn's agenda (apparently, Hutton didn't do any fact-checking on his own), Hutton chose to go along with the status quo nevertheless. I, myself, compared the quotations from Murray, via Hutton, to Murray's own text and found (not to my surprise) that Cohn/Hutton were wrong, and they had, in fact, misquoted Murray! It's amazing to me that people treat Hutton as the 'final word'.

Ironic, isn't it, that scholars who claim Murray ("ruthlessly") misquoted her sources have, actually, mis-quoted her?

However, as far as the "status quo", what people often don't realize is that Hutton generally just goes along with his "collegues" or, as he puts it, "most British scholars". And, yes, most scholars seem to rely on Cohn's assessment of Murray as the proverbial stake through the heart of her thesis and all it's variants throughout the years (regardless of how slight!).

Sadly, however, it has been my experience that when I try to inform others about this historical grievance, I am rudely rebufed as a "history revisionist" by my fellow Pagans (to which I take great offense)! In fact, if you've read many reviews from Pagans, of Hutton's work, they emphatically begin, "DIE WITCH CULT, DIE!!!"


It seems to me that 3/4 of the Pagan community have swallowed Hutton's work whole, just as they did with Aidan Kelly, without doing any further reading or research into the source materials--or the authors--on their own. Sad. And I've even encountered a large number of Pagans who have heard of Hutton, but not read his work (much less others), yet they blindly base their beliefs on his conclusions, secondhand. Have Wiccan and Pagans lost the ability to think critically for themselves?!

It's strange, I know! But, the reaction I generally see is something like this: Just because one is a Historian (not knowing that a PhD is literally a purchased piece of paper, because one is required to pay an enormous fee in order to take their final exams!) they believe that they are not only free from subjectivity, but somehow know everything, and have analyzed and scrutenized every possible bit of information and evidence in existence, and incapible of error or extremism, etc.

Well, the [roblem really arises when ne phrases their opinions as though they are unalterable facts and that no one worth their salt can, or wuld, disagree with them, etc. This sends a blatantly misleading message!

Scholars, I am convinced (having been severely disillusioned) should strive to represent the fuller scholastic community-- not just their preferred branch that allows them to ignore the current (and important...especially for the fuller picture!) and ground-breaking research from whole continents! But, sadly, I was told that this isn't the scholar's job! In fact, they quipped, "this is journalism, not scholarship!" Well, if all that so-called "scholarship" can offer is bias, political agendas, fear tactics (for those that might disagree), and ignorance of relavent data, it's NOT real scholarship! It's misleading... In fact, no one ever tells one that Hutton is EXTREMIST in his writings, and that DOZENS of scholars present history FAR differently!!! Indeed, if you look no further than Hutton (and I note many such folks on this board) you would only have one opinion, and a very small portion of the story, rather than all the facts to draw your own-- less extremist and more objective-- conclusions! In fact, there is leading research that supports (deeply) the writings of Marija Gimbutas to one extent or another (Hutton claims Peter Ucko discredited her completely, which is simply NOT so, no matter WHAT Hutton says; it's his opinion ONLY, not fact; I feel like I have t keep reminding people that *sigh*).


It's a shame more Neo-Pagans aren't familiar with Guinzburg (The Night Battles is a great read!) and Pocs. Even Russell, with his faults, has some interesting insights, but I have encountered Pagans who dismiss him merely because he was a Christian thealogian (supposedly).

I agree! Most that do, however, only know of him through Hutton's writings where he entirely mischaracterizes his work as though he's severely down-playing its importance, and as though it really proves nothing and cannot be used either to support the Murray-thesis or as evidence for any sort of a Pagan survival.

Personally, I wish that scholars would be up-front re: their methodology, rather than hiding behind it and hoping we won't notice its faulty stature and how inept it is to adress some VERY relevant questions pertaining to the notion of survivalism! I mean, they often just expect us to take their word for it (ummm...no; not on MY planet!).


This is what I love best about Russell. He almost seems sympathetic to the medieval Witch, and his fascinating theories about the etymology of the word witch should be studied by all Wiccan, Witches, and Pagans. Most Witches today recite (as if by rote) weik-"to bend" as the best etymology, but seem unaware that weik has other meanings, as Russell cites. In Witchcraft and the Middle Ages (an interesting read, though somewhat outdated), he illustrates the magico-religious definition using a Venn Diagram! (I'm not sure why this facinates me so, except that I studied statistics in college--which involves making a lot of Venn diagrams--the only math class I've ever enjoyed. ;) )

Yes, I agree whole-heartedly! It was SUCH a breath of fresh air to see something so more well balanced, than extremism! (BTW, I'd love to get ahold of that book, just to see the diagram! *EG*)


I think many Pagans also dismiss or seem unaware how valuable Doreen Valiente's works really are! She seems to be treated merely as Gardner's "ghost writer" or something, but she was actually a great researcher herself!

Oh, she was a freakin' genius, as well as the most inspirational woman I know of! But, you proably knew I'd say that, eh? She is my personal hero, after all. ;)


Thanks again for this well-written review. I had just looked at the book at Powell's the other day and was tempted to buy it. Now, I'll think twice.

Let me know what you think, too! *sigh* However, I am still so shocked by the same lack found in the up-date for Drawing Down the Moon! I mean, as a ember for NPR, I would have thought she would know better!


Ronald Hutton has addressed the criticisms about Cohn -- it seems that people aren't aware of this. He basically stated that his dismissal of Margaret Murray's witchcraft theories was not dependent upon Cohn but was the result of examining a lot more work on the subject besides Cohn (and which incidentally also included checking Cohn's sources for verification.)

Ben, I am well aware of that. However, not only did Hutton refuse to qualify his early endorsement of Cohn in any way, he continued to support him throughout the ensuing debate! More than that, the scholars cited all turned to Cohn as well, and they were chosen because they agreed with Hutton, rather than listing any relavent scholars that did not (always a troubling phnominon, IMHO).


Hutton addresses the Cohn criticisms pretty directly.

Not really... He seemed to skurt around the issue and refuse to come out and directly say that either he (even initially) or that Cohn was mistaken in their assessments-- he wouldn't even acknowledge that Cohn mis-quoted and lied about Muray's writings!

However, in Hutton's honour, I was deeply impressed by his appearance on The History ZChannel, recently, on a show sub-titled "The Pagans": His views were SO wildly different from anything he's even written before (he actually theorized, etc., and it seemed so hypocritical compared to his books!) that I had to ask myself, "ALright, where's Ronald Hutton and what have you done with him!?!?!" It was like he was taken over by a pod person, he was so drastically different! Sheesh! Honestly, I couldn't believe my own eyes!


And if he did check Cohn, why then did he use Cohn to discredit Murray???

Exactly! But, of course, this was why the series of articles was written in the first place.

Personally, I'm DEEPLY concerned by his eagerness to dismiss Prof. Pocs and nearly an entire continent of scholars as being inconsequential!

Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan

Ben Gruagach
March 19th, 2007, 08:23 AM
Ben, I am well aware of that. However, not only did Hutton refuse to qualify his early endorsement of Cohn in any way, he continued to support him throughout the ensuing debate! More than that, the scholars cited all turned to Cohn as well, and they were chosen because they agreed with Hutton, rather than listing any relavent scholars that did not (always a troubling phnominon, IMHO).

It might be worthwhile rereading Hutton's first statement in response to Farrell-Roberts where he points out that Cohn's work was just one of a large body of material refuting Murray's claims. And more importantly, that Hutton's arguments critical of Murray were not dependent upon Cohn's work. In other words, you could ignore Cohn's stuff completely and you still have a massive amount of supportive prior material which was the basis for Hutton's work.


Not really... He seemed to skurt around the issue and refuse to come out and directly say that either he (even initially) or that Cohn was mistaken in their assessments-- he wouldn't even acknowledge that Cohn mis-quoted and lied about Muray's writings!

If Cohn's work is not key to Hutton's argument, then why would he need to defend Cohn at all? I'm not sure I get it.


However, in Hutton's honour, I was deeply impressed by his appearance on The History ZChannel, recently, on a show sub-titled "The Pagans": His views were SO wildly different from anything he's even written before (he actually theorized, etc., and it seemed so hypocritical compared to his books!) that I had to ask myself, "ALright, where's Ronald Hutton and what have you done with him!?!?!" It was like he was taken over by a pod person, he was so drastically different! Sheesh! Honestly, I couldn't believe my own eyes!

Perhaps the issue is not that Hutton is being inconsistent, but that there has been some dramatic misunderstanding about Hutton's printed work. (I've seen Hutton on various documentaries as well, and have talked with people who have met him in person and have seen him speak live at various Pagan events in the UK. I haven't heard anything that contradicts what I've seen in his books.)

It seems to me that perhaps there are some anti-Hutton blinders in place which are making it problematic in understanding what Hutton has written. It might be worthwhile to approach Hutton's work (just like everyone's work) with an open yet skeptical mind, without an active attempt to find a purported agenda to either support or discredit specific historical theories. Look at what is presented and see where it leads rather than going in with a set destination in the hopes of either supporting or criticizing a pet theory.

Those interested in these sorts of historical debates might want to also check out the discussions over at http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/ -- it's a UK messageboard where you'll find assorted UK Pagan scholars participate and engage in precisely these kinds of discussions. There's been an interesting one in the Wicca and Witchcraft forum there regarding the possible Wiccan connection to George Pickingill, who was purportedly a cunning man in the late 1800s and early 1900s (although this itself is debatable as it seems that no one knew of Pickingill as being a cunning man until an article came out about it in 1960.) I imagine the people on that messageboard might have some interesting insights regarding Hutton and his work as they are much closer to the source than a lot of us are here on MysticWicks.

MacMorrighan
March 19th, 2007, 09:59 AM
It might be worthwhile rereading Hutton's first statement in response to Farrell-Roberts where he points out that Cohn's work was just one of a large body of material refuting Murray's claims. And more importantly, that Hutton's arguments critical of Murray were not dependent upon Cohn's work. In other words, you could ignore Cohn's stuff completely and you still have a massive amount of supportive prior material which was the basis for Hutton's work.

Actually, in Hutton's books he makes it clear that he is dependant upon Cohn's critique of Murray in alleging her "misrepresentation of the evidence". Well, if this is accurate, and he had compared Cohgn with Murray, than why rely on him at all; and why maintain that Cohn discovered this? It's rather mendacious, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, he dismisses any authors that point out, for example, his ageist and sexist tactics for dismissing evidence, scholars, and theses, in particularly Margot Adler in DDtM.


If Cohn's work is not key to Hutton's argument, then why would he need to defend Cohn at all?

But, it was seemingly key to Hutton's appraisal of Murray. In TotM we find (the key-word being "directly" and "in particular"), "...with the definitive collapse of faith in the Murray thesis. It was directly and energetically attacked by two British historians, Kieth Thomas and Norman Cohn, and the latter in particular exposed the tactics by which Margaret Murray had distorted evidence to support it" [pp. 362]. Indeed, Hutton later calls Cohn's Europe's Inner Demons a "major study"! (Seems like a key reliance to me. :idea: ) He essentially makes the same claim years later in 1999 when he reviews a chapbook published through the Folklore Society called A Coven Of Scholars.

So, what we see here, now, is a habitual reliance on a man whom Hutton claims to have known wasn't all he was cracked up to be (and that's being generous, as far as Cohn's concerned!).


Perhaps the issue is not that Hutton is being inconsistent, but that there has been some dramatic misunderstanding about Hutton's printed work. (I've seen Hutton on various documentaries as well, and have talked with people who have met him in person and have seen him speak live at various Pagan events in the UK. I haven't heard anything that contradicts what I've seen in his books.)

While that may be so for some, it doesn't happen to be so for myself. ;) I'm well-aquainted with his stuff, and find that he was being inconsistant when compared to his printed zealous habitual denial! Having read nearly all of his books (I'd like to buy his book on shamanism) he would NEVER have stated that Stone Henge was used in funerary rites; in fact, he would have drawn a contradictory conclusion based on what we DON'T know, or form which there is no evidence, in other words. Meaning that, because there's no irrefutible, direct, evidence for what he now claims, he would have dismissed it as rubbish. Although, even if there WERE some evidence, if it were open to various interpretations he would have deliberately chosen the most reductionist theory that he could think of. So, he seems to have severely contradicted how he presents himself.


It seems to me that perhaps there are some anti-Hutton blinders in place which are making it problematic in understanding what Hutton has written. It might be worthwhile to approach Hutton's work (just like everyone's work) with an open yet skeptical mind, without an active attempt to find a purported agenda to either support or discredit specific historical theories. Look at what is presented and see where it leads rather than going in with a set destination in the hopes of either supporting or criticizing a pet theory.

Oh, I have no "anti-Hutton blinders" on; I just dislike being told something as though it were irrefutible fact, only to learn the contrary! Moreover, I dislike feeling as though someone has attempted (even if they are well meaning) of dicieving me, even withholding relavent information that is practically undebatible from an entire cotinent.

Although, in all honesty, how many Pagans have you actually seen that approaches Hutton skeptically when compared to those that accept him as gospel? Those scales are vastly off-kilter, especially when one run's into a slew of others that might call you "a history revisionist" for disagreeing with ANYTHING Hutton has written, no matter how slightly! This, I believe, is a primary problem amongst modern Pagans-- I've even witnessed it here to extreme degrees. And, I must honestly admit, whenever I see it, it deeply concerns me...

Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan

David19
March 19th, 2007, 05:49 PM
Those interested in these sorts of historical debates might want to also check out the discussions over at http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/ -- it's a UK messageboard where you'll find assorted UK Pagan scholars participate and engage in precisely these kinds of discussions. There's been an interesting one in the Wicca and Witchcraft forum there regarding the possible Wiccan connection to George Pickingill, who was purportedly a cunning man in the late 1800s and early 1900s (although this itself is debatable as it seems that no one knew of Pickingill as being a cunning man until an article came out about it in 1960.) I imagine the people on that messageboard might have some interesting insights regarding Hutton and his work as they are much closer to the source than a lot of us are here on MysticWicks.

I can definantly recommend Pagan Network, it's a great forum with loads of great knowledgeable people, so maybe someone should make a post about there.

MacMorrighan
March 19th, 2007, 10:18 PM
Also, it's worth noting that Ronald Hutton, in The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, ruthlessly (and without cause) reprimanded Margot Adler (in Drawing Down the Moon) for pointing out the factual and problemtic nature of Norman Cohn's polemics (and she was 100% justified in doing so, as she simply did NOT out-run the evidence at hand!). Basically, in this account, Hutton simply chose to look the other way and ignore Cohn's extremist short-comings and blatant prejudices (prejudices that Hutton, himself, adopted to one extent or another by unequivocally endorsing him)!

MacMorrighan
March 21st, 2007, 10:55 AM
Hiya', Ben! I was just corresponding with investigative journalist, Janine Farrell-Roberts this morning, when she reminded me of something that was recounted on her site: Two years before the subsequent debate through The Cauldron, when the work of Norman Cohn to discredit the Murray thesis (in all its variants) was initially broached at dinner, Hutton admitted that it was his primary source! Upon that being said, having ready both editions of COhn's book, as wll as Murray's literature, Janine warmly mentioned that, perhaps, Hutton should go back and check Cohn's text (which was on his library) for accuracy-- he blatantly refused to do so, despite Janine informing him (at that time) that what Cohn said of Murray simply isn't true.

All my best,
Wade MacMorrighan

Paracelsus
March 21st, 2007, 12:28 PM
Sorry, I really think that's out of order - can the man have no private life at all? A dinner party conversation, no matter who it is with, is not the sort of thing that one refers to in this, or any other context - that is merely rude and exploitative - it's just bloody bad manners.

Ben Gruagach
March 21st, 2007, 01:22 PM
Sorry, I really think that's out of order - can the man have no private life at all? A dinner party conversation, no matter who it is with, is not the sort of thing that one refers to in this, or any other context - that is merely rude and exploitative - it's just bloody bad manners.

I agree. Let's keep things respectful and remember to discuss the actual topic, history, rather than turn this into some sort of bashing of specific individuals whether they are members here or not. The question should not be about the character of whoever is involved but the topic they've studied and presented.

David19
March 21st, 2007, 04:36 PM
Sorry, I really think that's out of order - can the man have no private life at all? A dinner party conversation, no matter who it is with, is not the sort of thing that one refers to in this, or any other context - that is merely rude and exploitative - it's just bloody bad manners.

I agree with you and Ben, Hutton's allowed a private life, quoting what he said in a dinner party isn't scholarly at all, published works (books, journal articles, etc) are what counts, not hear say.

I guess I really have learnt something from uni afterall, Lol!.

MacMorrighan
March 21st, 2007, 10:19 PM
I'm afraid that I must disagree-- what one says, regardless of where, is open to citation in any publicable fashion. After all, writers know full well the use ofciting something as "pers. comm." (even scholars). I argue, unequyivocally, that the same applies here. After all, his use and endorsement f Norman Cohnis really at issue, here. And, witnesses are, after all, used duyring legal proceedings to get to the truth or a matter. Again, the same applies here, also. There is *nothing* unscholastic about it (period).

Silverfire Darkmoon
March 21st, 2007, 10:26 PM
Sorry, I really think that's out of order - can the man have no private life at all? A dinner party conversation, no matter who it is with, is not the sort of thing that one refers to in this, or any other context - that is merely rude and exploitative - it's just bloody bad manners.

The first thing I thought when I first read this Farrel-Roberts rant years ago was, good Lord, this woman is insufferably rude.

Paracelsus
March 22nd, 2007, 01:37 AM
I'm afraid that I must disagree-- what one says, regardless of where, is open to citation in any publicable fashion. After all, writers know full well the use ofciting something as "pers. comm." (even scholars). I argue, unequyivocally, that the same applies here. After all, his use and endorsement f Norman Cohnis really at issue, here. And, witnesses are, after all, used duyring legal proceedings to get to the truth or a matter. Again, the same applies here, also. There is *nothing* unscholastic about it (period).

That is utter bollocks - "pers comm" is used scholastically to talk about comments that were made in the knowledge that they were likely to be published - for example in a letter from one scholar to another who they know is working in a related area, or in a conversation in the context of an academic conference -not at a dinner party.
You may talk a good fight when you decry academia, but this kind of behaviour only serves to undermine your credibility. Scholarship must be tempered with both good manners, and the perception to realise when someone is talking on or off the record - and that is the key to any kind of fieldwork or information gathering.

MacMorrighan
March 22nd, 2007, 10:49 PM
Oh, c'mon, now! That's merely a logical fallacy, pure and simple, that serves to surpress the truth of any particular investigation, and allows one (yes, even scholars) to be less honest than what they normally might have been. When a team of police officers seek to get incriminating evidence directly from a suspect, to they ask him? Hell, no! They send someone in to the danger-zone with a recording divice and use his own words as evidence (even if unknown to him!). One cannot surely be so foolhardy as to accept that one needs another's permission to cite them as "pers. comm."! To mandate such is extremist rubbish that may, in actuality, serve to supress the truth from being heard, when it's dreadfully important! Or, would you like to continue living in a fantasy-land safe in the "knowledge" that scholars are unbiased and not practicing under an agenda that is more than a little politicized re: what can, and cannot, be published for fear of their so-called "reputation"? Sorry, but I ain't that gullible, and take solace in exposing mendacity when it becomes apparent. Neither does is discredit my character-- hell, such citations and quotes go on in the U.S. on a daily basis in an effort to preserve the most accurate of knowledge! To accept otherwise is a detriment to honest history, and allows it to be written by the "ruling elite" (which I don't trust entirely; though I cannot speak for you, obviously).

Ben Gruagach
March 23rd, 2007, 08:04 AM
If underhanded methods are to be considered valid supposedly for the purpose of scholarly debate, then I'm afraid none of us here would likely be immune to these sorts of character assassinations and dismissal of everything we say.

Scholarly debate is not the same thing as Law and Order tv shows (and I wonder how people in police forces and the legal system feel about the accuracy of Law and Order tv shows!) Hearsay and gossip are still hearsay and gossip. Scholarly debate is about discussing the issues and their merits. Muckraking to try and trash a scholar's reputation for the purpose of casting doubt on the merits of their scholarly work is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

Paracelsus
March 23rd, 2007, 12:15 PM
Oh, c'mon, now! That's merely a logical fallacy, pure and simple, that serves to surpress the truth of any particular investigation.

Logical fallacy eh? If there is a logical fallacy anywhere in this thread it is perpetrated by those who want the deference accorded to academics while making a big deal out of how they are personally persecuted by academia. I mean, I know that you and Carla want to paint yourselves as the brave outsider scholars, and that's fine - but actually there are lots of independent scholars getting published in peer reviewed journals (Pomegranate being a good case in point), and speaking at decent academic conferences, so this whole line of "we're such outsiders, and everyone's so scared that nobody wants to play with us" just doesn't hold water. The fact that there are scholars who disagree with Hutton, and with the prevailing discourse means that such ideas do have a home within academia after all. Heselton being a particularly good case in point, although as you know I have real issues with the subjectivity and intuition of his research.

As for "suppressing the truth" - I'll give you another example, that I hope you readily will accept as germane to Pagan studies. I'm sure that you would find it totally unacceptable for a researcher to broadcast or publish material that they were pirvy to within a circle and under oath. Such an act would be a breach of trust, and would prejudice that group against ever getting involved with academic research again. It would also lay that researcher open to quite justificable charges of breach of professional ethics. Your assertion that "pers comm" could be used in such (indeed I think that you suggest any) situation is ridiculous - unless you would accept that it would be legitimate for an insider scholar to break their oaths when reporting to the academic community.

I would suggest that the breadth of such ethics would include exactly the kind of conversation that we are talking about here - irrespective of what we may personally think about a person, to equate a dinner party conversation with academic discourse and hold them to account for that is both boorish, and more importantly, an ethical breach.

You can't have it both ways - if your research and opinions are valuable (and while I may not personally agree with all of them, I think they are), then they should be shared through the usual channels. But that will mean playing by the rules, and yes, while those rules may have been made the majority - history demonstrates that those rules will only be shifted by people playing within the rules and demonstrating their ineffectiveness. You can't just chuck your teddy out of the pram because people use different research paradigms to you, and expect them to take you seriously.

Furthermore your assertion that anyone believes Scholar's viewpoints are unbiased is a trifle unworthy - of course they are, and indeed Pagan studies has lead the way in developing methodological reflexivity (look at Blain, Harvey and Ezzy's "Researching Paganisms", or Robert Wallis' superb "autoarchaeology" in "Shamans and Neo-Shamans").

I think that your comparison between legitimate field work and police work is ridiculous, and I hope that some of the points I've raised above will convince you that it is at the very least a specious position.

MacMorrighan
March 23rd, 2007, 07:31 PM
Yes, I realize there are independant scholars (even being published), however, the reaction I most often see is one of relative dismissal by the academic ruling elite-- even Hutton has engaged in ad hominem attacks, such as with Donald Frew and Max Dashu to one extent or another. Basically, it's usually along the following lines (I just saw it, recently in an academic debate, in fact, on television): "You're not a specialist in my field, so back off my turf!" This scholar, in fact, made no attempt to substantiate his position in any way; he merely considered the matter settled (as Hutton, frequently, does; and only citing it as some sort of consensus, rather than arguing for a given position).

As a result, relatively few even know of a single scholar (of which there are dozens, for the record) that portray history vastly different than Hutton-- he simply phrases his passage in such a way as to not allow doe any contrarty presentations (all things considered, that is my greatest personal concern).


As for "suppressing the truth" - I'll give you another example, that I hope you readily will accept as germane to Pagan studies. I'm sure that you would find it totally unacceptable for a researcher to broadcast or publish material that they were pirvy to within a circle and under oath. Such an act would be a breach of trust, and would prejudice that group against ever getting involved with academic research again. It would also lay that researcher open to quite justificable charges of breach of professional ethics. Your assertion that "pers comm" could be used in such (indeed I think that you suggest any) situation is ridiculous - unless you would accept that it would be legitimate for an insider scholar to break their oaths when reporting to the academic community.

Actually, that wouldn't bother me in the least, if it helped to advance not only academia, but an understanting of the real history of the Witch religion-- to bring it into clarity, and to even disprove some short-sighted early academic statements. Let's take a hypotheticalm example: Let's say that a scholar gained access to a coven that had unequivocal proof of Gerald Gardner's allegations that deeply countered the scholastic concensus-- it would be a disgrace to history for him to keep this from the public, and allow them to be mislead by now disproven research. In summation: He'd owe it to the world (period)!

However, this is really a peripheral argument at hand... What is at issue is not only that Hutton used a clearly faulted source as his principle key, but that modern academia is clearly supporting a relative distortion of history (which they hope is true) that none will admit to should they cherish their reputation under an ad hominem argument! You see where I'm getting at? There are some SERIOUS problems enshrined within academia that NO one wants to admit are present! And, don't even get me started on academia relative "conspiracy of silence" re: he scholastic opinion of an entire continent, as though it's incinsequential and simply not worth their time to address it as another distinct pluasibility. In so doing they are essentially misleading the public, which is a crime they have hefted upon earlier scholars with whom they vastly disagree.


You can't just chuck your teddy out of the pram because people use different research paradigms to you, and expect them to take you seriously.

Are you aware that British academia sure as hell seems to be attempting to impose their criterion and set methodology, as well as scholastic schools of thought, onto the world at large who may not agree with them? And, yes, one certainly can do what you disclaim and still be taken seriously. After all, how would YOU feel if you foundout that someone lied to you? Basically, what you disclaim, in an effort for the TRUTH and HONEST, OBJECTIVE history occurs everyday in the US. In fact, American scholars take such information into account that has been gathered through the methods you dispise as, say, journalists. That, in no way, makes them inferior. In fact, I argue that it makes them superior to an extent!


Furthermore your assertion that anyone believes Scholar's viewpoints are unbiased is a trifle unworthy...

Are you kidding me? I mean, have you actually seen how gullible and accepting Pagans are of material just because one has a Ph.D. (there are several such individuals on this very Forum!)? They are too quick to shift their beliefs JUST because a scholars couched his unsubstantiated opinion as though it were fact! But, then again, I choose not to live in a naive fantasy-land where candy grows on trees and volcanos spew rainbows. ;)

MacMorrighan
March 23rd, 2007, 07:35 PM
However, what's REALLY at issue hear is that someone said something to discredit himself, and no one likes that! Moreover, the facts remain: If Hutton apparently didn't use Cohna s his principle source, than why did his state the contrary and refuse to check Cohn's facts?

juliaki
March 24th, 2007, 09:24 AM
Hi Wade,

I may have missed it due to the length of your commentary, but what is/was your degree(s) in? Perhaps the difference in viewpoints is somehow connected to the differences in standards between the colleges where you got your degree(s) and where other people got theirs? Let's face it... not all college degrees are made equal. :)

And if you did put that information in there somewhere, mea culpa... I must have skimmed past it.

Thanks!

David19
March 24th, 2007, 10:05 AM
Are you aware that British academia sure as hell seems to be attempting to impose their criterion and set methodology, as well as scholastic schools of thought, onto the world at large who may not agree with them? And, yes, one certainly can do what you disclaim and still be taken seriously. After all, how would YOU feel if you foundout that someone lied to you? Basically, what you disclaim, in an effort for the TRUTH and HONEST, OBJECTIVE history occurs everyday in the US. In fact, American scholars take such information into account that has been gathered through the methods you dispise as, say, journalists. That, in no way, makes them inferior. In fact, I argue that it makes them superior to an extent!

I'm not sure, but you seem to be saying American scholars are "better" than British ones (which technically fringes on racism to an extent), but I don't think that's true, there are BS U.S. scholars, B.S. British scholars, etc.

But, "honest" history doesn't really occur in the U.S. that much (just look at Bush and his supporters who say Sadaam and Al Queda had "links" or how some people seem to believe it was the U.S. who "saved the world" at D-Day).



Are you kidding me? I mean, have you actually seen how gullible and accepting Pagans are of material just because one has a Ph.D. (there are several such individuals on this very Forum!)? They are too quick to shift their beliefs JUST because a scholars couched his unsubstantiated opinion as though it were fact! But, then again, I choose not to live in a naive fantasy-land where candy grows on trees and volcanos spew rainbows. ;)

True, there are Pagans who do believe everything someone says just 'cause they're a scholar, but then you also have the ones who'll believe everything Llewllyen says, without realising that company's agenda is money, money, money, and not the "truth".

Paracelsus
March 24th, 2007, 01:11 PM
More to the point, I think that your characterisation of American Scholars as riding rough shod over professional ethics is a little slippery as well. I mean, if you read the ethnographic work that is being done by Scholars in the States, they are coming from the same methodological background (possibly a little more conservative if anything) as those in Britain. I mean - do you really expect me to take seriously the idea that Rabinovitch, Lewis, Clifton, Pike, Berg et al are using a totally different research methodology? Because they aren't - I've read them, and they are functioning with the same methodologies and set of ethical principles that I'm suggesting are proper and appropriate to academia - the same that you propose to despise.

juliaki
March 24th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Just want to make sure that this is what was meant (instead of a misspeak of some kind)...


Paracelsus stated:
I'm sure that you would find it totally unacceptable for a researcher to broadcast or publish material that they were pirvy to within a circle and under oath.

MacMorrighan replied:
Actually, that wouldn't bother me in the least, if it helped to advance not only academia, but an understanting of the real history of the Witch religion-- to bring it into clarity, and to even disprove some short-sighted early academic statements.



So in your opinion, it's perfectly okay to break oaths if the oathbreaker tries to play it off as an academic pursuit? If that's the case, remind me never to stand in circle with you...yipes! (And if that's not what you meant, perhaps you could clarify it a bit?)

MacMorrighan
March 25th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Ah, but what you are suggesting is implicately flawed, my friend.

Something that I have always been one to loathe is the habitual behaviour of so-called "Professional Historians" to refuse to acknowledge the problems and political agendas within their own academic discipline (at worse they try to pass them off as so-called "academic rigour" when it suits their agenda), as though noine exist-- which, anyone with a brain and critical thinking skills can spot 100 meters away! But, I digress... Just bwcause someone, for example, repeats something that was supposed to be on the DL does, in no way, make them suspect; I argue that it makes them or more honoureable character than the bloke who tried to pass off a lie as the truth! Indeed, this is what you are saying, that scholars should be allowed to do this, and not be held to a higher code of honour and scrutiny. After all, what you seem to be skurting around is the real issue at hand-- which is: One wouldn't have had to have worried about the appropriate "channels" from the onset if the scholar in question had simply been honest about his motives and his principle (and now dubious) source. Moreover, I argue that what you are saying is that History Revisionism should be allowed to continue unchecked. What I am suggesting is called censurship and the public's right to know and not have the wool pulled over our eyes, or be fed B.S. as though it's Pumpkin Juice for which we should feel grateful. Perhaps an example might serve to prove beneficial: Many years ago a very important archaeological find was discovered in Egypt; it was an ossuary from the middle east. But, one rather pig-headed scholar blatantly refused to acknowledge its existence, or to even examine it, for no other reason than that it had been acquired on the Black Market. Indeed, if this "Professional" scholar had had his way, his ambitions would have shaped the anture of the discource and rejected valuable information for an incredibly petty, even pedantic, principle that was severely questionable on his part. His motives would have possibly shaped history for generations to come were he allowed to have his way; this is imposed History Revisionism on behalf of the academic ruling elite (I have written more on this below)! Basically, the unacknowledged fact is that scholars are frequently hypocrites-- they lambaste others of "generalizing too much" when they present evidence that directly counters them, regardless of the fact that they generalize themselves (albeit usually worse!). Moreover, and worse, IMO, is when they engage in ad hominem "arguments" (which are really attacks ment to assasinate one's character) so they don't have to consider the evidence they present, or may simply dismiss them rather thoughtlessly. There are even intimidation tactics, or scholars that consider the matter settled that simply (lazily) rely upon the say--so of others rather than making an argument for that case (Hutton does this, frequently, dispite the dozens-upon-dozens of scholars that portray history differently; Hutton is not only extreme, but atypical when compared to the wider-breadth of scholarship). But, anyone who does not acknowledge this habitual behaviour (or refuses to do so, claiming it's "academic rigour") is simply a fool (period) which is dilluded.

Incidentally, I do not particularly accept much of what Chas Clifton has to say these days... He is haunted to much by the exremist ghost of Hutton and British academe to be of much objective value. In fact, he maintains (which is the biggest cop-out I have ever heard) that it is not the responcibility of a scholar to question their methodology in any way, or the short-comings of how they present history; rather, he said, this is the job of one's students, but only when necessary! HA! Whatever... he doesn't seem to take into account that what he demands is a near-impossible task when the Prof. is the one grading said "student". In fact, there is an increcingly worrying trend (srtarting in the 1960s) in which students are told that if they question their instructor or the status quo they will NOT pass of earn their degree-- indeed, this has caused MANY brilliant minds to leave academic institutions in both the US and the UK! But, of course, for all I know, you may like academically imposed history revisionism...

Silverfire Darkmoon
March 26th, 2007, 06:30 AM
MavMorrighan, kindly stop stalling, get to the point, and answer Paracelsus' damn question, please.
In honestly, if I was told something and made to keep it oathbound, of course I would! Otherwise, what does me word and honour *mean*? And if I break that word and honour, than how could my publicly published word and honour mean anything?
Furthermore, before you rant about the evils of American scholarship,
1. Hutton is British.
2. So were Murray - the world's biggest pagan-writing douche - and Gardner. And pursuant to what I said above regarding oaths, if Gardner broke his oaths of secrecy to write about Wicca, than how can we take him at his word?

Dawa Lhamo
March 26th, 2007, 08:47 AM
I think the problem with dinner party conversations, besides any ethical consideration, is that they're so rarely tape-recorded or transcribed. So Ms. Farrell-Roberts testimony is nice, but it remains hearsay. At least with speeches and such, there's a record of *what* was actually said... in the exact words and tone. I'm not saying I don't trust Ms. Farrell-Roberts, because I trust her no less than any other human being whom I haven't met before. ^_^ But she's human. Unless she was wearing a wire or taking field notes at the party (which would be very impolite, assuming this was a normal dinner party), then it's hard to consider her later testimony as more than hearsay.

That's the difference, perhaps, between anthropological field work and investigative journalism. Anthropologists have rules against exploiting their subjects, against disrespecting their host culture, while journalists get after the story, no matter what. A difference of method.

Furthermore, if someone breaks their oath to reveal something, then they can't be trusted. They've admittedly lied at least once... and lied about something that they've sworn deathly oaths to keep secret. Sounds like a person who will say anything for a little attention. And such people don't make trustworthy informants.

I'm not saying anything about the review, because I haven't read the book, but these points in the later conversation struck me. ^_^

David19
March 26th, 2007, 09:22 AM
I think the problem with dinner party conversations, besides any ethical consideration, is that they're so rarely tape-recorded or transcribed. So Ms. Farrell-Roberts testimony is nice, but it remains hearsay. At least with speeches and such, there's a record of *what* was actually said... in the exact words and tone. I'm not saying I don't trust Ms. Farrell-Roberts, because I trust her no less than any other human being whom I haven't met before. ^_^ But she's human. Unless she was wearing a wire or taking field notes at the party (which would be very impolite, assuming this was a normal dinner party), then it's hard to consider her later testimony as more than hearsay.

That's the difference, perhaps, between anthropological field work and investigative journalism. Anthropologists have rules against exploiting their subjects, against disrespecting their host culture, while journalists get after the story, no matter what. A difference of method.

Furthermore, if someone breaks their oath to reveal something, then they can't be trusted. They've admittedly lied at least once... and lied about something that they've sworn deathly oaths to keep secret. Sounds like a person who will say anything for a little attention. And such people don't make trustworthy informants.

I'm not saying anything about the review, because I haven't read the book, but these points in the later conversation struck me. ^_^

I think you're right, it was a dinner party, and so you can't prove what was said or wasn't said, it's all hear say (it wouldn't stand on it's own in a court either).

Personally, I'm not sure if we can really, truly, know anything about whether there was a witch religion in the Middle Ages, we have Gardner's word, but really what proof did he give?, and can we really believe him - afterall, he was under oaths from the coven that initiated him, why would he break those oaths to reveal a witch religion - and if he did break some oaths, then he'd proved he can't be trusted (it would mean he had lied to the coven, wouldn't it?).

MacMorrighan
March 26th, 2007, 06:07 PM
SF DM, you are relatively young, yet; and naive... We all go through this phase in our lives, ultimately believing everything we read, and eventually learn to out-grow it, while others do not. And, while you believe I have no answered the earlier question that you were speaking about, but I have already, regardless of your personal opinions and inuendos.


Furthermore, before you rant about the evils of American scholarship,
1. Hutton is British.

I have no problems with American scholarship in theory, save for when it thoughtlessly adopts british standards of extremism, rather than it's authentically objective, and middle-of-the-road approach. So, you very much have it backwards, my friend...


...Murray - the world's biggest pagan-writing douche...

[For the record, I have been referring to modern scholars within the past 30-40 years or so in my discource, which you might have skipped.]

Would you like to support your argument, my friend? Or are you merely using the opinion of anbother to vidicate your beliefs, which is't how real research works, I'm afraid. Be that as it may, do you even realize that the one principle scholar who is up-held as in order to use Murray as a whipping boy can be proven to have lied about Margaret Murray? Does that not mean anything to you? It should! (Such opions based off of such lies cannot be up-held!) Anyone who is really objective, and takes research (especially history) seriously would take this into serious accoiunt and re-thing their earlier suppositions. Perhaps you should simply think twice before labling Murray "a douche" in future, Hmmm... At least until you've givcen her a second appraisal; though I don't suppose you've ever actually bothered to read her books, have you? You probably just took what Hutton wrote at face value, who (in turn) accepted what Norman Cohn wrote uncritically.

But, you are young yet, and maybe you'll learn; but maybe you won't. *shrugs* Who knows but Time?

juliaki
March 26th, 2007, 06:14 PM
Hey MacMorrighan...

I think you might need to skim back over the replies...there's a couple questions that you missed.

1. What is your degree in? (As that may help participants in this thread better understand where you are coming from)

2. Are you stating that it is acceptable to violate oaths (re: lie) in order to further "academia"?

I think you've hinted around the answer to the second one, but haven't yet been willing to state it outright, but I don't see the answer to the first question anywhere.

Thanks!

MacMorrighan
March 26th, 2007, 06:18 PM
Yes, Dawa, while it very much remains in the hear-say catagory (a form of evidence that is frequently used in American trials to one extent or another, regardless), I cannot personally dismiss it as such, as so many here have (not saying that YOU have, of course), because the fact remains that, had Janine not discerned that Norman Cohn was Hutton's principle resource, the ensuing debate would have never begun in the first place. ;o)

Zibblsnrt
March 26th, 2007, 06:23 PM
This:


SF DM, you are relatively young, yet; and naive... We all go through this phase in our lives, ultimately believing everything we read, and eventually learn to out-grow it, while others do not. And, while you believe I have no answered the earlier question that you were speaking about, but I have already, regardless of your personal opinions and inuendos.


....


But, you are young yet, and maybe you'll learn; but maybe you won't. *shrugs* Who knows but Time?

violates these:


2. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster.

3. Racism, sexism, age discrimination, the outright bashing of a path or religion, etc is unacceptable.

Silverfire Darkmoon
March 26th, 2007, 09:26 PM
Actually, yes, I have read Murray. I haven't had the chance to have a go at 'The Divine King in England', but I've read the other two. And I had condemned Murray as unreliable long, long before I read Hutton, Cohn, Rose, or any of the others who have so elegantly refuted her. Their criticism is based on analysis of her methods, 'evidence', and conclusions, whereas your criticism of the above scholars relies merely on hearsay, personal communications - uncited ones, I might add - and nitpicking.
Please operate under the assumption that I have read the authors I am critical of in the future.
Age has nothing to do with it. Cynicism is cynicism no matter what the age. As I don't see what this has to do with the topic, I'm going to shut up about that.

MacMorrighan
March 29th, 2007, 07:35 PM
SM DF, I honestly don't believe you (can't, actually). After all, had you actually read her books you would not have come to the hard-nosed conclusion that you had. Just remember that Murray is far more accurate than you seem willing to admit to. Nor have the authors you cited actually refuted her (unless you accept medacity on their part as so-called "evidence"); and why you uncr5itically believe this is anyone's guess. And, no, my criticism of the above scholars relies onb evidence, which you don't seem to acknowledge. So, I leave you wioth this quote, my friend:

"Sacred cows make the best hanburger"
-- Mark Twain

Consider yourself served. ;)

Paracelsus
April 3rd, 2007, 06:34 AM
And that's it is it?
Well, I've read Murray too, and I don't believe it either...
You're still avoiding the points...