plumedsnake
April 19th, 2007, 11:20 AM
I posted this in the theology and philosophy forum but didn't get much of a response on Plato's views certain Greek religious practices. Maybe there might be more interest here. :
A Platonic take on greek religion
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In the course of my studies on the the practice of religion (ie. harmonising one's being to one's circumstance) around the world, I learnt about the Greek approach through Plato. What does plato say about religious practice in Ancient Greece?
Well in Timaeus he discusses various states of dis-ease. If you look at the line 86 we find he saying that there are diseases of the body (soma nosemata in greek) and diseases of the soul (psyche in greek). He further states that there are two types of diseases of the soul. Ignorance (amathia in greek) and Madness or folly (Mania in greek). He says: whatever affection a man suffers from, if it involves either of these conditions, it must be termed dis-ease; and we must maintain that pleasures and pains in excess are the greatest of the soul's diseases.
If we now go on to look at Phaedrus, another work of Plato's we find another distinction he makes. Of the Manias, or madnesses, or follies, he identifies two types. 1) mania arises from human diseases. and 2)Mania that arise from a divine influence.Check line 265 of Phaedrus.
Now of the divine mania he further classifies 4 types. These 4 are said to be inspired (epipnoian in greek) by a divinity. they are:
1)Mantic madness - inspired by Apollo
2) Poetic madness - inspired by the muses
3)Erotic madness - inspired by Eros and Aphrodite
and 4)Telestic Madness - inspired by Dionysus
The passage is actually about love and Socrates says that being in love is a form of Mania or madness. Afterall the lover is beyond himself and cannot control his actions. Yet the other types of Mania also involve a loss of reason and self control. Mantic madness which is the madness of divination is what seizes and inspires the diviners as they practice their craft. Poetic mania is what seizes and inspires the Artist/poet. But Telestic mania? Telestic is greek for ritual. Telestai means rites. A formal practice. What the hell could Plato mean by a formalised form of Madness which is inspired by a God.
Furthermore, what did these Teletai involve? Well if we look at his book called Laws around line 791 we find him talking about teletai and he informs us that they involved sacrifices, dances and music.
Divine Madness we also learn is ordained by god (theia moira in greek). in other words those who are afflicted with it were fated to be afflicted with it. It's congenital. Furthermore it is a product of Enthusiasm. By enthusiasm I am referring to the original meaning of the word as derived from the Greek En- theos. In other words the afflicted person has the God in him. He is en theos-ed or rather Engodded. In other words he is Possessed by the diety.
In Phaedrus he says of the mantic priestesses of dodona and Python(line 244) : 'when they were mad they conferred great benefits on HEllas, both in public and private life, but when they were within their senses few or none.'
In Laws (790) he then mentions Telestic mania and says of the Bacchantes that they are ekphrones, or out of their senses and that the ritual practice of Music and Dance is what is done to restore them to their senses.
Now consider this: I am paraphrasing from Phaedrus (line 244) where Plato has Socrates speak along these lines:
For these diseases and great woes that certainly have their ancient origin in offenses committed by someone in the lineage; Mania that happens to those that are accustomed to indulging in it by giving them prophetic power, brings about deliverance through the use of prayers to gods and of cults; this results in purificaton and rituals (teleton),it brings recovery to those who welcome it for now and the time to come, securing him who is correctly Mania-ized and possessed release from his troubles.
In other words, certain people are congenitally predisposed to suffer certain woes. Divination trance helps them by showing them how to approach the gods over the issue. Then purifications and rituals can be performed. He who undergoes the appropriate Mania will be released from his troubles.
Here we find a pattern that is common all over the world. That the first instance of contact with a divinity is fraught with woe and disease and that by the practice of certain rituals the relationship with the diety is repaired and the relationship then becomes one which is not only with troubles but that becomes a veritable blessing.
A Platonic take on greek religion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Plato doesn't just stop there. He goes further to tell us how he thinks that these rituals involving music and dance actually work. When we read Laws at around line 790 where Plato is talking about how to raise children and advocates the use of appropriate movements we find:
... to the women who ritualize (telousai) in the healing of the corybantes. For when mothers have children who suffer from insomnia and want to go to sleep, lull them to rest, they bring them not stillness, but this very movement, for they rock them ceaselessly in their arms bringing them not silence, but melody, that way they musically soothe (kataulousi) the children just as is done to Bacchantes out of their senses, by using this cure of movement as singing and dancing and music.
. . . the sufferings of both are, in brief, frights, that comefrom a defective disposition of the soul. So whenever one applies an external shaking to sufferings of this kind, the external movement overpowers the internal movement of fear and madness and by thus overpowering it, it brings about a manifest calm in the soul and a cessation of hte grievous palpitations of the heart, which had existed in each case. Thus, it produces very satisfactory results. It brings sleep to the babies while to the Bacchantes, set to dancing and listening to the Aulos, it brings wakefulness and, with the help of the gods, made favorable by happy auspices, and to whom each one offers sacrifices, it completes for them the enjoyment of a sound state of mind instead of a state that is in our eyes Madness.
The platonic idea is that there is movement in the universe. The motions of the heavenly spheres and all that. And there is movement within man. when the movement within man is at odds with the movement of the universe then the man suffers disease. The cure for this is to tune the movement within man through the use of music dancing and sacrifices to the movement of the universe. These universal movements can be seen as the gods.
Check out what plato has to say about this in Timaeus (line 88)
The various parts, likewise, must be treated inthe same manner, in imitation of the form of the Universe. For as the body is inflamed or chilled within by the particles that enter it, and again is dried or moistened by those without, and suffers the affections consequent on both these movements, whenever a man delivers his body, in a state of rest, to these movements, it is overpowered and utterly perishes; whereas if a man imitates that which we have called the nurturer and nurse of the Universe, and never, if possible, allows the body to be at rest but keeps it moving, and by continually producing internal vibrations, he defends it in nature's way against the inward and outward movements . . .
A Platonic take on greek religion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the course of my studies on the the practice of religion (ie. harmonising one's being to one's circumstance) around the world, I learnt about the Greek approach through Plato. What does plato say about religious practice in Ancient Greece?
Well in Timaeus he discusses various states of dis-ease. If you look at the line 86 we find he saying that there are diseases of the body (soma nosemata in greek) and diseases of the soul (psyche in greek). He further states that there are two types of diseases of the soul. Ignorance (amathia in greek) and Madness or folly (Mania in greek). He says: whatever affection a man suffers from, if it involves either of these conditions, it must be termed dis-ease; and we must maintain that pleasures and pains in excess are the greatest of the soul's diseases.
If we now go on to look at Phaedrus, another work of Plato's we find another distinction he makes. Of the Manias, or madnesses, or follies, he identifies two types. 1) mania arises from human diseases. and 2)Mania that arise from a divine influence.Check line 265 of Phaedrus.
Now of the divine mania he further classifies 4 types. These 4 are said to be inspired (epipnoian in greek) by a divinity. they are:
1)Mantic madness - inspired by Apollo
2) Poetic madness - inspired by the muses
3)Erotic madness - inspired by Eros and Aphrodite
and 4)Telestic Madness - inspired by Dionysus
The passage is actually about love and Socrates says that being in love is a form of Mania or madness. Afterall the lover is beyond himself and cannot control his actions. Yet the other types of Mania also involve a loss of reason and self control. Mantic madness which is the madness of divination is what seizes and inspires the diviners as they practice their craft. Poetic mania is what seizes and inspires the Artist/poet. But Telestic mania? Telestic is greek for ritual. Telestai means rites. A formal practice. What the hell could Plato mean by a formalised form of Madness which is inspired by a God.
Furthermore, what did these Teletai involve? Well if we look at his book called Laws around line 791 we find him talking about teletai and he informs us that they involved sacrifices, dances and music.
Divine Madness we also learn is ordained by god (theia moira in greek). in other words those who are afflicted with it were fated to be afflicted with it. It's congenital. Furthermore it is a product of Enthusiasm. By enthusiasm I am referring to the original meaning of the word as derived from the Greek En- theos. In other words the afflicted person has the God in him. He is en theos-ed or rather Engodded. In other words he is Possessed by the diety.
In Phaedrus he says of the mantic priestesses of dodona and Python(line 244) : 'when they were mad they conferred great benefits on HEllas, both in public and private life, but when they were within their senses few or none.'
In Laws (790) he then mentions Telestic mania and says of the Bacchantes that they are ekphrones, or out of their senses and that the ritual practice of Music and Dance is what is done to restore them to their senses.
Now consider this: I am paraphrasing from Phaedrus (line 244) where Plato has Socrates speak along these lines:
For these diseases and great woes that certainly have their ancient origin in offenses committed by someone in the lineage; Mania that happens to those that are accustomed to indulging in it by giving them prophetic power, brings about deliverance through the use of prayers to gods and of cults; this results in purificaton and rituals (teleton),it brings recovery to those who welcome it for now and the time to come, securing him who is correctly Mania-ized and possessed release from his troubles.
In other words, certain people are congenitally predisposed to suffer certain woes. Divination trance helps them by showing them how to approach the gods over the issue. Then purifications and rituals can be performed. He who undergoes the appropriate Mania will be released from his troubles.
Here we find a pattern that is common all over the world. That the first instance of contact with a divinity is fraught with woe and disease and that by the practice of certain rituals the relationship with the diety is repaired and the relationship then becomes one which is not only with troubles but that becomes a veritable blessing.
A Platonic take on greek religion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Plato doesn't just stop there. He goes further to tell us how he thinks that these rituals involving music and dance actually work. When we read Laws at around line 790 where Plato is talking about how to raise children and advocates the use of appropriate movements we find:
... to the women who ritualize (telousai) in the healing of the corybantes. For when mothers have children who suffer from insomnia and want to go to sleep, lull them to rest, they bring them not stillness, but this very movement, for they rock them ceaselessly in their arms bringing them not silence, but melody, that way they musically soothe (kataulousi) the children just as is done to Bacchantes out of their senses, by using this cure of movement as singing and dancing and music.
. . . the sufferings of both are, in brief, frights, that comefrom a defective disposition of the soul. So whenever one applies an external shaking to sufferings of this kind, the external movement overpowers the internal movement of fear and madness and by thus overpowering it, it brings about a manifest calm in the soul and a cessation of hte grievous palpitations of the heart, which had existed in each case. Thus, it produces very satisfactory results. It brings sleep to the babies while to the Bacchantes, set to dancing and listening to the Aulos, it brings wakefulness and, with the help of the gods, made favorable by happy auspices, and to whom each one offers sacrifices, it completes for them the enjoyment of a sound state of mind instead of a state that is in our eyes Madness.
The platonic idea is that there is movement in the universe. The motions of the heavenly spheres and all that. And there is movement within man. when the movement within man is at odds with the movement of the universe then the man suffers disease. The cure for this is to tune the movement within man through the use of music dancing and sacrifices to the movement of the universe. These universal movements can be seen as the gods.
Check out what plato has to say about this in Timaeus (line 88)
The various parts, likewise, must be treated inthe same manner, in imitation of the form of the Universe. For as the body is inflamed or chilled within by the particles that enter it, and again is dried or moistened by those without, and suffers the affections consequent on both these movements, whenever a man delivers his body, in a state of rest, to these movements, it is overpowered and utterly perishes; whereas if a man imitates that which we have called the nurturer and nurse of the Universe, and never, if possible, allows the body to be at rest but keeps it moving, and by continually producing internal vibrations, he defends it in nature's way against the inward and outward movements . . .