Reincarnation and Asatru and other random thoughts

[happyheathenmom]

Hail!

Recently, in a text comment I received to one of my videos on youtube, which was actually a video reply to a friend of mine, I was told that reincarnation is not a part of Asatru. Now, I don't really believe this, because I do believe ancestors can have incarnations within a family line.

He claimed such ideas were turning Asatru into a 'new age' religion (which made me chuckle), but he was nice about it. Anyway, as I am 'alone' in this part of Illinois, I was just interested in others' thoughts regarding this concept.

Here is how I feel about it:

I believe ancestors can reincarnate along a family line, because for one:

This semi-recent surge of interest in Asatru. I'm not just talking about the past couple of years. Maybe the last 20 to 30 years, and of more recent years, it keeps snow-balling and snow-balling, until the proverbial snowball is beginning to be more noticeable. Ok.. I'm getting philosophical here.. lol What I am trying to say is that there are more and more groups, and more and more interested people, and even more and more modern books being written on Asatru, Teutonic Religion, and Heathenry out there, when just a few years ago when you walked into a bookstore, you could only find goofy books that included that stupid blank rune.
Now you can find better books that really incorporate the myth into the meaning of the rune itself. I hope I'm coming across clearly here, lol I do tend to ramble a bit.

My point is this: Are our ancestors us now? (rhetorical, but answer if you like) Have they had it 'up to here' with 'Christian' society, and have decided to come back and resurrect the old ways? If it wasn't a case of reincarnation (and I don't mean I think that 100% of modern heathens/Asatruar folk are all reincarnations of ancestors), but maybe just the blood in our veins reaching back hundreds and hundreds of years, grasping at some genetic code that ties us to the Aesir and our ancestors.

Another side note: How do I explain my reactions when I see pictures of Iceland, for example. I sometimes get literally choked up by the beauty, and my chest gets really tight like I'm looking at a picture from my childhood, and feel a sensation akin to homesickness? This has really happened to me, and for all the love and money of the world, I cannot explain why I would feel this way. I can look at pictures of other really pretty natural sites, and forests, but I don't feel the same way. Yeah, it sounds really corny, and even silly, but I can't explain it. It's quite odd, indeed. I had googled Iceland, and found a tourism web site. The site had many pictures of various places, and it did almost literally take my breath away. I was beginning to tear up by the time I had looked through all the pictures, and felt as though a vice grip was crushing my rib cage.

I'm not looking for anyone to verify that experience for me, because it was just something personal I decided to share. However, it would be interesting to hear if anyone else had any odd experiences like that.

I'm also mildly interested in hearing others' thoughts on the Nine Noble Virtues. I do believe they exemplify good moral standards, but there are times in one's life when they could be bent or broken, or not followed to the letter. Such as, I wouldn't invite a murderer over for dinner. Which I know is a bit extreme, but you get the idea. I do show friends and family hospitality when there are in my home, offering stuff to eat or drink, and the like. I'm also afraid of bees, and yeah I know, what a weird thing to be afraid of, especially since I've never been stung believe it or not. When I was a kid, my grandma instilled some kind of crazy fear in me about them. Bees/wasps/hornets/bumblebees/anything that flies around with a stinger are really the only things I am really afraid of. I have at least quit feeling the urge to shriek when I see them. I'm working on it, what can I say? lol

Well.. that's about all I can really think of at the moment.. thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings ;)

HHmom

[Skadi]

That is actually pretty much what I have been thinking for a long time. I mean, we definitely reincarnate along family lines... but I meant the surge of interest in the old ways. I can't explain it, but even as a child I was drawn to knowing the history of my family and my people, which of course, eventually led me to the old Gods. I think you may be right in some way...

[happyheathenmom]

That is actually pretty much what I have been thinking for a long time. I mean, we definitely reincarnate along family lines... but I meant the surge of interest in the old ways. I can't explain it, but even as a child I was drawn to knowing the history of my family and my people, which of course, eventually led me to the old Gods. I think you may be right in some way...

Thanks for the reply :)
It seems really weird, but somehow, it makes sense.. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. :)

HHmom

[David19]

Just adding my 2 cents, but I think one of the reasons for the interest in Asatru (and bear in mind, this is coming from someone who isn't a Heathen (or anything really, yet anyway)), and other Pagan religions (like Wicca, Hellenic reconstructionism, Kemeticism, etc) is 'cause the age we live in now is when we have more information about them, there's a lot of sociological changes, such as more seperation of Church and state, so information can't get censored (or I should say easily, as governments can still censor info, just look at the Jessica Lynch case), and people might find a lack of satisfaction with big Churches and want to look into "alternative" religions, who are normally more open-minded (even in Christianity, Judaism and Islam, people are looking at more accepting forms of those 3 religions e.g. Reform Judaism, liberal Islam, pro-LGBT Christian churches, etc).

It could be that one of the reasons why Asatru is getting more interest is due to reincarnation of some ancestors, but I think there are also sociological issues (which are important when looking at any religion) that account for it too.

I think that made some sense, and like I said just throwing in my 2 cents.

[Rick]

Well, as I recall, there isn't much, if anything, in the Lore to support the notion of reincarnation... doesn't keep me from believin' in it, but I don't think it's a major tenet of the Folkway.

[happyheathenmom]

Just adding my 2 cents, but I think one of the reasons for the interest in Asatru (and bear in mind, this is coming from someone who isn't a Heathen (or anything really, yet anyway)), and other Pagan religions (like Wicca, Hellenic reconstructionism, Kemeticism, etc) is 'cause the age we live in now is when we have more information about them, there's a lot of sociological changes, such as more
It could be that one of the reasons why Asatru is getting more interest is due to reincarnation of some ancestors, but I think there are also sociological issues (which are important when looking at any religion) that account for it too.

I think that made some sense, and like I said just throwing in my 2 cents.

Howdy David :)

This is true, too. But, one of the strangest things I've read concerning 'coincidences' and the like is when I had read in Margot Alder's "Drawing Down the Moon" (1986, Penguin Group publishing co.) page 275 in particular, has a section about Stephen McNallen talking about the Asatru Free Assembly (AFA). Which he started in 1971. McNallen says that many of the main groups started within a few months of each other, and relates this 'coincidence' to "a wind blowing through the World Tree". The groups he is referring to are the AFA, The Odinist Fellowship, The Odinist Committee in England, and Asatruarfolks in Iceland.
In 1972 Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson petitioned the Icelandic government to recognize the Íslenska Ásatrúarfélagið ("Icelandic fellowship of Æsir faith") as a religious body. (source for that is a web site I found on the fly: Religion Facts (http://www.religionfacts.com/a-z-religion-index/asatru.htm))

I've actually been pagan for 15-16 years, but I've been Asatru for around 2 years. I've got my whole 'story' in my signature below on my Asatru pages. It's pretty detailed, so I won't bore anyone with the whole thing here.. lol I will say that there were some very strange coincidences leading up to my arrival of where I am now (Asatru). Yeah, I had a few detours, twists and turns, but I will say I feel much more at home now with my beliefs and feelings. It just gives a little insight into where I came from, path-wise and so forth.

Anyway, :) Thanks for the reply. Good insight on the current state of things! :)

Wassail! :cheers:
HHmom

[happyheathenmom]

Well, as I recall, there isn't much, if anything, in the Lore to support the notion of reincarnation... doesn't keep me from believin' in it, but I don't think it's a major tenet of the Folkway.

Hail Rick! :)
I was wondering if someone who knew the lore better than I would know if there was something about it mentioned there. I've read quite a lot, but then you get the literary senses of things, instead of the literal, and the kennings occasionally and you have to decipher things and what not. Which I admit is part of the fun, but since I am still relatively new, and I don't claim to be a lore master, so it's good to hear from you as well on this topic :)

A couple things I have wondered about, relating to reincarnation, what about Baldur? I mean technically, he comes back after Ragnarok, after being 'dead', from Hel. Then of course Gullveig, who keeps coming back after being 'thrice dead but still alive.' Please do correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that reincarnation on a technicality? Granted they come back as the same person (unless there's something they aren't telling us lol), but they are still coming back/or have come back/came back however you want to word it. Also, another technicality, Odin sacrificed himself to himself, it doesn't say he died, merely impaled himself, which a mortal couldn't survive obviously. The only reason I bring up this is that he was a different person in a way afterwards having gotten the runes, like having an initiatory shamanic type of transformation, my understanding of it anyway. So the underlying theme is kind of there, but in a metaphysical way moreso than completely physical, except for the impaling part.

I would love to hear thoughts on this... like I said, I have no one else to bounce ideas off of, and I don't ever claim to be an expert.. just some random thoughts I've had lately :)

Frith
HHmom :)

[David19]

Hail Rick! :)
I was wondering if someone who knew the lore better than I would know if there was something about it mentioned there. I've read quite a lot, but then you get the literary senses of things, instead of the literal, and the kennings occasionally and you have to decipher things and what not. Which I admit is part of the fun, but since I am still relatively new, and I don't claim to be a lore master, so it's good to hear from you as well on this topic :)

A couple things I have wondered about, relating to reincarnation, what about Baldur? I mean technically, he comes back after Ragnarok, after being 'dead', from Hel. Then of course Gullveig, who keeps coming back after being 'thrice dead but still alive.' Please do correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that reincarnation on a technicality? Granted they come back as the same person (unless there's something they aren't telling us lol), but they are still coming back/or have come back/came back however you want to word it. Also, another technicality, Odin sacrificed himself to himself, it doesn't say he died, merely impaled himself, which a mortal couldn't survive obviously. The only reason I bring up this is that he was a different person in a way afterwards having gotten the runes, like having an initiatory shamanic type of transformation, my understanding of it anyway. So the underlying theme is kind of there, but in a metaphysical way moreso than completely physical, except for the impaling part.

I would love to hear thoughts on this... like I said, I have no one else to bounce ideas off of, and I don't ever claim to be an expert.. just some random thoughts I've had lately :)

Frith
HHmom :)

I can't remember exactly, but I think Road to Hel by H.R. Ellis Davidson goes into the various afterlife destinations of Heathens (ancient), and I think it does mention reincarnation. But I'd need to reread it again to make sure.

You can get it as a free PDF if you haven't already read it.

[Rick]

Hail Rick! :)
I was wondering if someone who knew the lore better than I would know if there was something about it mentioned there. I've read quite a lot, but then you get the literary senses of things, instead of the literal, and the kennings occasionally and you have to decipher things and what not. Which I admit is part of the fun, but since I am still relatively new, and I don't claim to be a lore master, so it's good to hear from you as well on this topic :)

A couple things I have wondered about, relating to reincarnation, what about Baldur? I mean technically, he comes back after Ragnarok, after being 'dead', from Hel. Then of course Gullveig, who keeps coming back after being 'thrice dead but still alive.' Please do correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that reincarnation on a technicality? Granted they come back as the same person (unless there's something they aren't telling us lol), but they are still coming back/or have come back/came back however you want to word it. Also, another technicality, Odin sacrificed himself to himself, it doesn't say he died, merely impaled himself, which a mortal couldn't survive obviously. The only reason I bring up this is that he was a different person in a way afterwards having gotten the runes, like having an initiatory shamanic type of transformation, my understanding of it anyway. So the underlying theme is kind of there, but in a metaphysical way moreso than completely physical, except for the impaling part.

I would love to hear thoughts on this... like I said, I have no one else to bounce ideas off of, and I don't ever claim to be an expert.. just some random thoughts I've had lately :)

Frith
HHmom :)
Darlin', my problem is that after about 40 years it all sorta starts blurrin' together :hehehehe:

Hmm... I dunno... I don't have a clue how reincarnation works in immortals :hahugh: but I doubt the same 'rules' apply... it's food for thought, but at the moment, I'm stuffed with tandoori chicken & nan, so will have to digest it later... :smile:

Now, there is the Sig-Hero sagas (Sigfried, Sigurd, Sigmund, not necessarily in that order... I can never keep those guys straight); some translations say that these are the same Hero reincarnated from grandfather to father to son, some translations hint at the reincarnation angle but don't come right out & say so, & yet other translations just list them as three generations of a tragic, doomed family.

[happyheathenmom]

I can't remember exactly, but I think Road to Hel by H.R. Ellis Davidson goes into the various afterlife destinations of Heathens (ancient), and I think it does mention reincarnation. But I'd need to reread it again to make sure.

You can get it as a free PDF if you haven't already read it.

I have it somewhere.. but haven't had the time to read it, but I do believe I saved the link on my "Asatru pages" site... but I have been meaning to, but with work and stuff I haven't had the time to actually sit down and read it.. maybe I'll get to it later tonight, at least start reading it. I need to get ink for my printer so I can print out a bunch of stuff I've collected over the past 2 or 3 years. :)
Thanks for reminding me about it though, :)

frith
HHMom

[happyheathenmom]

Darlin', my problem is that after about 40 years it all sorta starts blurrin' together :hehehehe:

Hmm... I dunno... I don't have a clue how reincarnation works in immortals :hahugh: but I doubt the same 'rules' apply... it's food for thought, but at the moment, I'm stuffed with tandoori chicken & nan, so will have to digest it later... :smile:

Now, there is the Sig-Hero sagas (Sigfried, Sigurd, Sigmund, not necessarily in that order... I can never keep those guys straight); some translations say that these are the same Hero reincarnated from grandfather to father to son, some translations hint at the reincarnation angle but don't come right out & say so, & yet other translations just list them as three generations of a tragic, doomed family.

Tee hee it's ok.. my short term memory is crappy sometimes.. like at work I hoard post it notes like they are going out of style.. however I have nearly all the hospital line extensions, and nearly all the doctor's pager numbers all memorized.. but for the minute to minute things I wouldn't be able to survive without a stack of post-its.. lol :)

I think I've read a couple of the Sig sagas, but sometimes I read too fast and everything just mooshes together.. (like when I read the first three harry potter books for the first time in less than a week and a half... I didn't think I would like it, but after not being able to put down the first book, I had to continue... oh.. and the LK Hamilton "Anita Blake series" same thing.. I wouldn't be able to tell you what happend in what book..good series.. vampires, werewolves, wereleopards, zombies.. good stuff..)

Anyway :) TY I'll have to re-read the Sig sagas.. and see what I can find..
YAY! Now I've got homework (Road to Hel, and Sig sagas) that'll keep me busy this weekend.. providing I don't speed-read too fast.. lmao

ah well.. :) ty :)

frith
HHmom

[Skadi]

Well, as I recall, there isn't much, if anything, in the Lore to support the notion of reincarnation... doesn't keep me from believin' in it, but I don't think it's a major tenet of the Folkway.

It is mentioned at least one specific time that I can think of off the top of my head, in the poetic Edda in the Lay of Helgi the son of Horvath.


43 Hethin said:
"Kiss me, Sváva: I come not ever,
Rógheim to see, nor Rothul-fells,
ere avenged I have King Hjorvarth's son,
under heaven who was of all heroes best."

Of Helgi and Sváva it is said they were born again.There are actually many different mentions of reincarnation within the Eddas and Sagas. I would say there is more than just a little to support the notion of reincarnation within Asatru and that our ancestors also believed in rebirth.

Also, the Gods are not immortal or Baldur would never die, nor would Ragnarok occur. You can't kill an immortal and as such, Baldur's story is a legitimate example of reincarnation.

[David19]

Also, the Gods are not immortal or Baldur would never die, nor would Ragnarok occur. You can't kill an immortal and as such, Baldur's story is a legitimate example of reincarnation.

But, I've always thought that even though Balder is "dead", when he comes back, it won't be in a new body (like reincarnation) but more a resurrection (the same body, same Balder).

I'm not sure if I'm way off or something, perhaps someone could correct me?.

[Skadi]

That is true, it is more akin to resurrection. However the story still points to a belief in the cycle of birth-death-rebirth.

[Rick]

But, I've always thought that even though Balder is "dead", when he comes back, it won't be in a new body (like reincarnation) but more a resurrection (the same body, same Balder).

I'm not sure if I'm way off or something, perhaps someone could correct me?.
As I recall, Baldur's body is burned. However, he isn't 'reborn'... maybe that's the secret that Odin whispers into his ear just before the pyre is lit, the secret of resurrection, or re-animation, or reincarnation, etc...

[Skadi]

... His rebirth is spoken of in Gylfaginning during the Ragnarok story.


LIII. Then spake Gangleri: "Shall any of the gods live then, or shall there be then any earth or heaven?" Hárr answered: "In that time the earth shall emerge out of the sea, and shall then be green and fair; then shall the fruits of it be brought forth unsown. Vídarr and Váli shall be living, inasmuch as neither sea nor the fire of Surtr shall have harmed them; and they shall dwell at Ida-Plain, where Ásgard was before. And then the sons of Thor, Módi and Magni, shall come there, and they shall have Mjöllnir there. After that Baldr shall come thither, and Hödr, from Hel; then all shall sit down together and hold speech. with one another, and call to mind their secret wisdom, and speak of those happenings which have been before: of the Midgard Serpent and of Fenris-Wolf.

[Eldred Grimm]

I love this discussion Question? How dose the Diser and Orlog relate to Reincarnation :cheers:

[Garm]

There must of been some belief in reincarnation especially along family lines

Saint Olaf after his conversion to Xtianity had to deny that he was the reincarnation of an ancestor of the same name

[Rick]

... His rebirth is spoken of in Gylfaginning during the Ragnarok story.


:smile: I meant he wasn't reborn as in passed out of a womb... that's why I'm not sure that deities coming back to life count as reincarnation, they just seem to sorta 'be' again...

[Skadi]

Well he certainly didn't hop back into his body, being ashes and all that... Rebirth or reincarnation just means the soul being reborn out of death... so I would still count it count as such.