What constitutes a non-Wiccan Witch?

[Sage Rainsong]

Okay I have met a lot of people who are witches who don't consider themselves Wiccan (I am one of them, well kinda, it's a long story). Many times though, I come across people who say that they are not Wiccan but they believe in the great God and Goddess and the gods being aspects of them, they use wiccan ritual structure, celebrate the sabbats, yet do not consider themselves Wiccans because they believe in hexing rapists or other criminals. I am not saying that people do not have the right to define themselves but, in your opinion, are slight changes regaurding the rede and/or the three fold law enough to not be Wiccan anymore? If you feel that Wiccan and witch are seperate, what does it take to be a non-Wiccan witch? Should they have a different view of deity? Do they have to be more folk magic oriented rather than ceremonial? in other words, what constitutes a non-Wiccan witch?

DISCLAIMER!!!!! I am not insulting anyones path or the right for people to call themselves whatever the hell they want. It's just for debate. Thank you.

[Lunacie]

People believe they don't have the right to call themselves Wiccan because they are willing to do what they can to take care of rapists and other criminals? That's not what traditional Wiccans are taught, that's the new "Wicca Lite" or the "Fluff Bunny Wicca". It's not what Wicca started out being some 60 years ago. Gerald Gardner called it the Arte of Witchcraft because it was based on witchery.

Using magic or spells to stop a rapist or help the police to catch one with enough proof to convict him is a good thing to do with magic, for crying out loud. Only asking for the real rapist or child molester to be caught and sent to prison of course, not to make a target out of someone who is only suspected of wrongdoing.

[Lunar Raven]

Most Wiccans go by "harm none"..but I think some take it to an extreme. While sure...hexing a rapist or whatever could be considered "harming" someone..who cares? It's a rapist ;).

To me, that wouldn't make someone *not* Wiccan. Besides, I see Wicca and Witchcraft as two separate things, even though they often intertwine.

..but to answer your main questions, I think it's hard to say. If you believe in the "Wiccan way"...and decide that Wicca is what you wanted to follow, then consider yourself Wiccan and go for it...you are one. If your beliefs and practices are too diverse to be classified into one tradition/religion, then...don't consider yourself anything specific.

I think it's a complicated issue...but it all boils down choice and what you wish to follow. I guess it's the same concept as believe in "God" (I say that as an ultimate god"). You can believe in "God" but still not be Christian.

[Pagan Warrior]

Most Wiccans go by "harm none"..but I think some take it to an extreme. While sure...hexing a rapist or whatever could be considered "harming" someone..who cares? It's a rapist ;).

This is where I will have to disagree, I don't believe that "karma" requires vigilanti witches to speed things along. If you curse (or hex) someone you do so knowing the possible repocussions. I firmly believe that if you choose to exact vengance you need to openly do so to your opponent, otherwise you are acting dishonorably. That's just me.

[Philosophia]

I generally think non-Wiccan witches tend to be more folk magic orientated with their own set ethics. The rede and threefold law isn't amongst their personal morals.

What differentiates me from Wiccans is that I don't have a Goddess/God in my practice, I have my own set of ethics, I rarely do anything ceremonial (i.e. casting circles, invoking the Goddess, etc.), and I don't really follow the sabbats (I follow the seasons themselves). I haven't been "taught" Wicca nor do I feel comfortable calling myself something that I haven't properly learnt.

[HadouKen24]

If you've got everything except the three-fold law and the rede, I'd call you Wiccan, myself. I understand it's a matter of some contention among Wiccans. The very idea of the three-fold law doesn't strike me as very pagan, to be perfectly honest. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, and Norse certainly didn't believe anything like it. As Aristotle said, justice is helping one's friends and harming one's enemies. While I'm not saying that modern pagans need to be like the ancient ones, I certainly wouldn't fault a pagan of any persuasion for rejecting
the three-fold law or anything like it.

[Lunar Raven]

This is where I will have to disagree, I don't believe that "karma" requires vigilanti witches to speed things along. If you curse (or hex) someone you do so knowing the possible repocussions. I firmly believe that if you choose to exact vengance you need to openly do so to your opponent, otherwise you are acting dishonorably. That's just me.

This for the most part I agree with too, actually. My statement was not so much a description of what i'd do personally..just my thoughts on the whole concept of it. The main poster said that someone she/he knows doesn't consider them self a Wiccan because of their belief in using magick against rapists/criminals/whatever. What I was trying to say though, is that I don't exactly think that type of work would make them non-Wiccan. It's not to say that I agree with it, but I wouldn't exactly call that "negative magic", assuming it's something to just stop them. And I agree with the comment on repercussions from it. If you do such magickal workings, you should always keep that in mind.

[bbnflpn]

alot of people can be witches with out being wiccan, look at other types of beliefs, more folk magic like voodoo and santaria (sorry if i spelled that wrong) some of them will call them selfs witches, some will not,

however i believe that alot of the stigma is that people do not want to be associated with wicca at all, alot of it having to do with the fluff bunnies, or the thought that its a religon that is made mostly of angst ridden teens who want to make mommy and daddy mad (yah i know not true but people do think that way)

i actually had this conversation the other day, about wicca vs witch ect.

[Irish_dragon]

I consider myself a pagan, I don't define myself as a wiccan.

I don't follow the ceromonies to much, I do try to follow the sabbats alittle. I use Reiki when I pray. I like to talk to the Goddess sometimes.

But to consider myself a wiccan? No I consider myself a pagan, mainly b/c I haven't really found the path I wish to walk yet. I know which path I would like to walk, but in the religion and career wise, I'm not quite there yet.

[Nitefalle]

I would call myself a Witch, but I am not Wiccan. I do not follow the Rede, do not believe in the three fold law, and I am a hard polytheist. I don't cast circles and I don't use the four elements as part of my path. I follow a Celtic path, worship Celtic gods and open myself to the Three Realms during rituals. However, I consider myself a Witch because I work "low magic" - I use charms, sachets and simples to help achieve my goals. I work with herbs and stones and other gifts of the Earth as part of my path. I don't think there is any set definition of the word "witch" and I don't think I fill any sort of requirement, that is just a title I have taken on myself because I believe it fits.

[Rudas Starblaze]

for starters, religion and witchcraft are two different things. a person can be a complete athiest and still be a witch. wicca was pretty much the first to incorporate religion as a main factor. i dont believe in a god and goddess and that all others are aspects of them. i believe theres tons of deities out there, they stay outta my way, i stay outta theres. as for the sabbats, i dont even bother with em. whats the point? oh, and as for the hexing/cursing thing... ive done it for less reasons than rape and murder.

[Greybird]

First, there are about 20 different definitions of 'witch', and none of them is the 'right' definition. If one group of Wiccans wants to call Wicca a form of witchcraft, they're right. If another group says that what they do isn't witchcraft, they're right. If someone else practices secular folk magic and calls it 'witchcraft', they're right. If someone dresses up in a pointy hat and paints their face green, calling themselves a witch, they're right. If you calls someone who sours milk and cooks Kid Fritters in a forest a witch, they're right, too. None of them has any exclusive right to the term 'witch', and nobody has the right to call a particular definition of a word of questionable origin and a long history incorrect.

Anyway, defining 'Wiccan' is a sticky subject. Is it the Rede and the Law of Three? Which version of the Rede? The original version, describing what to do ('as you will') under a specific set of circumstances (when it harms none), or the more recent 'harm none anywhere ever' interpretation?

Is it acknowledgment of a certain form of deity? Probably not. Some Wiccans are duotheistic, some are polytheistic, some are pantheistic, some are even panentheistic.

Is it a certain general ritual format combined with a certain group of observed holidays? I know of Wiccans who observe all 13 full moons, some who observe all 13 plus 13 dark moons, some who observe none of the moons, some who observe all 8 sabbats, and some who observe only four.

I know some who say that unless you specifically observe the Rede, the Rule of Three, have been initiated, follow a specific ritual format, follow every one of the hundred-plus 'laws', observe all sabbats and esbats, and work with a group of exactly 13 in a precise mix of genders, you can't possibly be a Wiccan.

We're a diverse group. We want to be a diverse group. We outright deny any form of centralized authority, and yet so many of us try to claim that there is a universal definition that should be applied to all of us. The two ideas don't work together - at all. We can't have both 'nobody is boss' and 'this applies to everybody'. It's impossible.

At the same time, we can't be too free with the definition. What is the difference between a Hindu and a Wiccan? If someone starts out as a Wiccan, follows Hindu deities, Hindu traditions and Hindu holidays, but keeps the Rede, are they still a Wiccan, or are they Hindu with an extra rule? What about Buddhist practices? Christian practices? Native American practices? If the definition of 'Wicca' becomes so open that whatever you do can be called Wicca, then the word Wicca just becomes a synonym for 'religion', and becomes a completely unnecessary word. We have to have something to set us apart from the Buddhists, Hindus, and Christians.

Most likely, 'Wicca' refers to a combination of some, but not necessarily all, of the above mentioned points. It is the Duck Rule: If it quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, it's a duck. Just use common sense, and don't obsess with labels to the point that you're refusing to let go of the word 'Wicca' when it doesn't apply to you, or that you refuse to let others whose use of it has just as much historical precedent as yours (ie - none) use it. That's just arrogant elitism.

From the perspective of a pagan that calls himself Wiccan, but may not be, depending on who you ask. At the end of the day, I am what I do, not what I call myself.

[Arion]

Okay I have met a lot of people who are witches who don't consider themselves Wiccan (I am one of them, well kinda, it's a long story). Many times though, I come across people who say that they are not Wiccan but they believe in the great God and Goddess and the gods being aspects of them, they use wiccan ritual structure, celebrate the sabbats, yet do not consider themselves Wiccans because they believe in hexing rapists or other criminals.
I've been thinking about that too recently. I don't get it, some people follow a completely Wicca-like system, but make a big deal about not being Wiccan because they don't believe in the Rede or whatnot. Like Yasmine Galenorn, although I enjoyed her books, I don't see how she isn't Wiccan. She follows the Wheel of the Year, casts a circle, calls quarters, belives in the mother goddess and male consort, and the goddess' maiden-mother-crone triple aspects, not to mention the god's holly king/oak king, green man, and hunter aspects. All very Wiccan. Many people who do admit to being Wiccan don't follow the Rede strictly either, and may cast hexes and curses. It just confuses me how people can follow a system identical to Wicca in everything but name, and be so opposed to being called a Wiccan.

I'm not a Wiccan or any kind of Witch anymore, so it doesn't concern me that much. The witchcraft community is a bit of a mess with eclectics, and make-it-up-as-you-go type people making up new "traditions" based on watered-down how-to books. Some people seem to think that a minor variation constitutes an entirely new system.

[Amelserru_halqu]

A witch is someone with magical powers. A non-wiccan is someone who is not wiccan. Therefore, A non-wiccan witch is someone with magical powers who is not a follower of the wiccan religion.

And that's all folks.

[KylalaKitty]

I consider myself a non-wiccan witch for all the above reasons :hahugh:

[David19]

A witch is someone with magical powers. A non-wiccan is someone who is not wiccan. Therefore, A non-wiccan witch is someone with magical powers who is not a follower of the wiccan religion.

And that's all folks.

That's the exact definition I would go for.

To put it even more bluntly, I'll let the author of whywiccanssuck.com (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101000000-20051231235959/http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/index2.html)define a witch:


Witch
Someone with magical powers. I repeat, someone with magical powers.
Changing your religion to "Wicca" does NOT make you a witch. Religion has nothing to do with it. (How many Xians have you met who can change water into wine?)

[Arion]

A witch is someone with magical powers.

But what do you define as magical powers? I've known people who thought they were witches because the had the occasional psychic flash and thought they could get premonitions like Phoebe on Charmed. Certain psychological exercizes are practiced by some witches as magic, does that count? What about occult practices like levitation and all that crazy stuff?

Ain't labels and definitions a blast? :hahugh:

[Sage Rainsong]

A witch is someone with magical powers.

I know that this is a bit off topic but personally I find that definition a little vague. I mean there are other magical practioners in the world that wouldn't dream of the word witch. There are even many other Pagans who practice magic who do not call themsevles Wiccans.To me witchcraft doesn't equal magic witchcraft is a particular kind of magic like Hoodoo is. I am not trying to stir up the Wicca vs witch debate yet again but I am talking more about how some (by no means all) non wiccan witches seem to have practices that are extrememly close to Wicca and yet they insist that they are not. So I am wondering how different ones' practices have to be in order to be a non wiccan witch. Wow all of this made much more sense in my head lol.



Like Yasmine Galenorn, although I enjoyed her books, I don't see how she isn't Wiccan.

I agree that I did find many similarites to Wicca in her books. I absolutely love her though, She is actually the reason that I discovered MW in the first place.



Ain't labels and definitions a blast?

Tell me about it. My pretty little head hurts now.

[Lady Valkyrie]

I believe that just because someone states that they are Wiccan doesn't mean they should be held to the standard of the Wiccan Rede. The Rede as we know (and I am not talking about that long poem Written by Adriana Porter and was published by Lady Gwen Thompson, Adriana Porter's Granddaughter in The Green Egg magazine in 1975) it is merely advice, not holy law. Wiccans generally have no Bible or someone in authority over them telling them the "shall's" and the "shall not's." The word "rede" means "counsel" or "advice." In Gerald Gardner's book "The Meaning of Witchcraft" he says they (witches) are INCLINED to the morality, he doesn't say that they are BOUND. The Wiccan Rede is not a Law and was never a Law. It is however, wise advice and good counsel for when you practice magick whether you are a Wiccan or otherwise. I personally have had people when they throw the Wiccan Rede in my face, so to speak, when I say or do something they don't like because I used to call myself a Christian Wiccan. As everyone's spiritual life evolves, so has mine. I no longer call myself a Christian Wiccan, but rather a Christopagan. I have also seen many become dogmatic about the Wiccan Rede. I find that many take the Wiccan Rede too literal and it becomes to impractical. No one can go through life without harming a single thing intentially or unintentially. I believe some common sense needs to be used when one is applying the Wiccan Rede to their life.

[wtfidka]

I would call myself a Witch, but I am not Wiccan. I do not follow the Rede, do not believe in the three fold law, and I am a hard polytheist. I don't cast circles and I don't use the four elements as part of my path. I follow a Celtic path, worship Celtic gods and open myself to the Three Realms during rituals. However, I consider myself a Witch because I work "low magic" - I use charms, sachets and simples to help achieve my goals. I work with herbs and stones and other gifts of the Earth as part of my path. I don't think there is any set definition of the word "witch" and I don't think I fill any sort of requirement, that is just a title I have taken on myself because I believe it fits.

That is well on the way to describing what I would term to be a witch. I do follow a similar path though it is not Celtic. Also I work with both sides of the coin so as to speak! Witchcraft is not a religion, it is a way of life. Nitefalle I think you have every right to call urself a Witch,Witchcraft doesnt come from a book it comes from within you, if you dont feel it no one can teach you to. The only true lessons will come from within.

[Lady Valkyrie]

That is well on the way to describing what I would term to be a witch. I do follow a similar path though it is not Celtic. Also I work with both sides of the coin so as to speak! Witchcraft is not a religion, it is a way of life. Nitefalle I think you have every right to call urself a Witch,Witchcraft doesnt come from a book it comes from within you, if you dont feel it no one can teach you to. The only true lessons will come from within.

I firmly believe as well that Witchcraft is not a religion. I believe it is a practice of magick that can be coupled with any religion or spiritual practice. However, I have had some people come back at me with "Then I suggest that you google and study the term 'traditional witchcraft' and you will see that it is indeed a religion." *shrugs* To each their own, I guess.

[Nitefalle]

Yes, but there is a difference between garden variety witchcraft and British Traditional Witchcraft, which is a Tradition with a capital "T". And even that path is not set in stone and is often tailored to the individual practicioner, depending upon their beliefs and who their guide / teacher was. So that may just be one Traditional Witch's opinion.

[Meadhbh]

Well wicca is a belief system and witch craft is a pratice. You can go to church and still be a witch if you pratice witchraft. Amoung pagans there are a lot of people who don't call themselves wiccan because either they don't follow the reed like other people have said or they don't follow the goddess and god theory of wicca. Really its for a thousand different reasons and it just depends on the person in question.

[Amythyst]

A non-wiccan witch?...Could it be that they don't belong to a formal coven or that they don't follow the Wiccan Rede? Maybe they incorporate practices from many paths into their own?

I practice a combintion of Hoodoo, Wicca, and Green Witchcraft...how would I be defined? I don't know myself.

[halfwaynowhere]

A wiccan is someone who follows the religion of Wicca. A witch is someone who works magic(k), however vague that may be. Whether that magic(k) involves formal spells invoking the gods or whatnot is not important. If you work magic(k) and consider yourself to be a witch, then you are one. its as simple as that.

[taai]

very interesting thread! i am enjoying reading all of your posts. i consider some of what i do magic-- i talk about my magic, i have ritual, lol, but i have never thought of that as witchcraft. for me, i feel that the word witch is a condemnation. it reminds me of that terrible time in the past where people like us were chased and hunted and put to death as heretics. witch is what they called us... but i prefer to say i do magic, and eschew any definitive label.

[wtfidka]

If you've got everything except the three-fold law and the rede, I'd call you Wiccan, myself. I understand it's a matter of some contention among Wiccans. The very idea of the three-fold law doesn't strike me as very pagan, to be perfectly honest. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, and Norse certainly didn't believe anything like it. As Aristotle said, justice is helping one's friends and harming one's enemies. While I'm not saying that modern pagans need to be like the ancient ones, I certainly wouldn't fault a pagan of any persuasion for rejecting
the three-fold law or anything like it.

Never make the mistake of calling a Witch a wiccan. Ok I dont have the rede, the free fold law, the magic circle, the shiny tools or the chants.
I do know magic is both black and white, I do know the one power a witch needs comes from within and will never be learned from a book.
Witches have been practising the craft for many centuries under one name or another, many have suffered for their beliefs but Withcraft will never die as long as there are true seekers in the world and a Witch is always seeking and will never claim to have finished learning. Witchcraft is a way of life!

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I don't cast circle or call quarters either. Wiccans have this thing about circles and quarters. I actually had someone tell me years ago that if I didn't cast a circle or call quarters that I was inviting things in that I didn't want. One of the main problems with this is that there is so much work in finding north. There is no way that I'm following what other people say and doing what they do.

I'm a witch, not a Wiccan. I firmly believe in giving people what's coming to them. I practice both white and gray magic and I don't follow the Wiccan rede. What is the point in following something that allows others to walk over you. I agree with Laura Cabot, there is no such thing as a Wiccan and I wish that people would stop calling themselves a Wiccan when their really a witch.

I do, however, have one question. I've been totally ignoring candle colors. I just pick a candle that 'feels' right and use it for my rituals. Can the wrong color affect a spell? Just a question along with the stupid things like planet correspondence, days of the week, and oils that Wiccan seem to think is so important. Are those things important for a modern non-Wiccan witch or can we just throw all that away and follow our guts?

[herbal_legends]

I do, however, have one question. I've been totally ignoring candle colors. I just pick a candle that 'feels' right and use it for my rituals. Can the wrong color affect a spell? Just a question along with the stupid things like planet correspondence, days of the week, and oils that Wiccan seem to think is so important. Are those things important for a modern non-Wiccan witch or can we just throw all that away and follow our guts?

Color doesn't matter as much as your intent.
Color and planet correspondences, days of the week and oils may boost the effect of a spell but are NOT NECESSARY. Use a plain ol' white tea light candle if that's all you have available at the time. I firmly believe that the stronger your emotions/intent towards the issue at hand, the stronger the casting will be. I think planning out things just ruins the effect.

lol Like I really got time to go look for a green candle when I'm feeling a need for some extra cash flow. No I just grab whatever's there and work with it. My athame is a kitchen knife and my wand is a wooden spoon. :cutie:

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Another go with the flow witch, like me. I could never understand the importance of all these planet correspondence and days of the week. I do believe in moon phases because that's how my magic flows. However I'll just snap up a candle, no matter if its been used, and do my work. One of the things that I've found that works is doing a small ritual prior to doing the actual ritual.

Like I'm doing my working during the waning phase but before I do that I do a small ritual to tell the Goddess that I'm doing work later on that day. Once the sun is down it's time to do some serious work. Another great thing about not casting a circle is that I don't have to worry about stepping over the line of the circle. It allows me to move around freely and raise some awesome energy.

Nothing bad has happened to me without the circle, which tells me that circle casting is full of nonsense.

One last question and then I'll leave all you wonderful people alone. Do witches have both the God and Goddess on their altar or is that just 'A Wiccan thing.' I had Anubis but then I added Isis.

Like I said I do my own thing, just wondering what all you others have as representations on your altars.

[herbal_legends]

I also at least like to pay attention to moon phases :)

I don't know about others, but me personally, my altar has an Angel statuette and a mother/daughter statuette that were given to me as gifts. It also has 4 cute green ceramic birds that I found at Michaels. :cutie:

[RoseKitten]

I don't cast circle or call quarters either. Wiccans have this thing about circles and quarters. I actually had someone tell me years ago that if I didn't cast a circle or call quarters that I was inviting things in that I didn't want. One of the main problems with this is that there is so much work in finding north. There is no way that I'm following what other people say and doing what they do.



There are many reasons groups call the quarters and cast the circle. Most people don't understand them. However, anyone telling you that you're "wrong" because you're not doing it their way, is an idiot. The only exception would be if you were claiming to be "a" which requires specific practice, and you were in fact, not doing those specific things. There are unlimited paths out there, and nobody is the ultimate authority on the subject.

Also, I wonder about the "no way I'm following what others say or do" mentality. Is something less valid because it is believed to be more correct? I guess I'm confused about your wording, and what it is that you mean.



I'm a witch, not a Wiccan. I firmly believe in giving people what's coming to them. I practice both white and gray magic and I don't follow the Wiccan rede. What is the point in following something that allows others to walk over you. I agree with Laura Cabot, there is no such thing as a Wiccan and I wish that people would stop calling themselves a Wiccan when their really a witch.



What about the rede allows others to walk all over you? Or are you just assuming that the fluff mongers out there are correct in how they apply it?

Also, who or what gives you the right to say an entire path just doesn't exist?



I do, however, have one question. I've been totally ignoring candle colors. I just pick a candle that 'feels' right and use it for my rituals. Can the wrong color affect a spell? Just a question along with the stupid things like planet correspondence, days of the week, and oils that Wiccan seem to think is so important. Are those things important for a modern non-Wiccan witch or can we just throw all that away and follow our guts?

What is with all the Wiccan bashing? Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it invalid. Nobody is forcing you to do it. Those things are important to us.

[RoseKitten]

Nothing bad has happened to me without the circle, which tells me that circle casting is full of nonsense.



And all this tells me is that you have no understanding of why they're used.

[Nox_Mortus]

I don't cast circle or call quarters either. Wiccans have this thing about circles and quarters. I actually had someone tell me years ago that if I didn't cast a circle or call quarters that I was inviting things in that I didn't want. One of the main problems with this is that there is so much work in finding north. There is no way that I'm following what other people say and doing what they do.

looking at the sun or the stars, or even simpler using a compass is hard work? Magic is not for the lazy.


I'm a witch, not a Wiccan. I firmly believe in giving people what's coming to them. I practice both white and gray magic and I don't follow the Wiccan rede. What is the point in following something that allows others to walk over you. I agree with Laura Cabot, there is no such thing as a Wiccan and I wish that people would stop calling themselves a Wiccan when their really a witch.

There are several problems with this, one, Wicca does not allow people to walk all over you, there's a very marked difference between watching out for yourself and being vindictive however. Saying there's no such thing as a Wiccan is one of the most ignorant and bigoted pieces of nonsense of heard on this forum in a long time, you are aware thet you are basically trying to deny the existence of an entire religion yes?


I do, however, have one question. I've been totally ignoring candle colors. I just pick a candle that 'feels' right and use it for my rituals. Can the wrong color affect a spell? Just a question along with the stupid things like planet correspondence, days of the week, and oils that Wiccan seem to think is so important. Are those things important for a modern non-Wiccan witch or can we just throw all that away and follow our guts?

Whether or not it's important depends on what system you follow, but I'll say it again, magic is not for the lazy, or the inattentive.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I'm not doing Wicca bashing, I'm just stating that it's easy to forget all this information that is out there. So many authors write so many different ways to do thing that it's hard to tell which way is right. I don't cast a circle because, one, I don't have a compass, and two, my mother comes in without warning and I don't want to have to cut a doorway every time she needs something.

I do my own thing, I follow my own path, and that's work. It takes work to do spells and it takes work to remind yourself that you don't have to follow what others say or do. Trust me, anything that wears down on my mental state is work and stress. I flow with my magic and I've found that Druids don't cast a circle (I've talked to a Druid so I know). My magic isn't affected by not casting a circle or calling quarters.

Anyway, there are others on this thread that don't cast circles or call quarters and that's one reason that I started commenting. Anyway, there is no wrong way to practice witchcraft.

Note: On the subject of hexing. If Eddie Long is proven to be guilty I'm so hexing his butt.

[Death the Kid]

I don't believe in a great Goddess or God, I don't really believe in the Old Gods either. I work with five terrestrial elements rather than four. I don't adhere to the Rede or believe in the Threefold Law of Return. I reject the idea of duality. I do create sacred space whenever I feel the need and this involves the casting of a circle.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

On the rare occasion that I do need to cast a circle I do it mentally. However those kinds of occasions require my mother being in bed. She's doing this on-line course and is always calling me to help her. Therefore casting a circle would be a hindrance to my magic because I would always be losing focus, then I would have to re-cast the circle and call back the quarters.

Get why I don't cast a circle often to nearly at all.

[LadyDryad]

On the rare occasion that I do need to cast a circle I do it mentally. However those kinds of occasions require my mother being in bed. She's doing this on-line course and is always calling me to help her. Therefore casting a circle would be a hindrance to my magic because I would always be losing focus, then I would have to re-cast the circle and call back the quarters.

Get why I don't cast a circle often to nearly at all.


I thought casting a circle was nonsense?

Also, you can get a compass for under $5, if you want one.

I've got to say...I'm not even close to Wiccan, but if I were I would have been offended by some of your comments. But that's just me. Pretty sure if people posted things like that about your path, you'd be angry or upset at them for invalidating what you do.

[LadyDryad]

Oh...I guess if I'm going to comment on this thread, I'd better at least post something relevant to the original topic of discussion.

I'm a Christian Witch. I practice Christianity, but also folkish magic as needed. The two are easier to combine than lots of people may think.

The phases of the moon and changing of the seasons play a fair part in my life, as do things like crystal and herb magic.

[Nox_Mortus]

I'm not doing Wicca bashing, I'm just stating that it's easy to forget all this information that is out there. So many authors write so many different ways to do thing that it's hard to tell which way is right. I don't cast a circle because, one, I don't have a compass, and two, my mother comes in without warning and I don't want to have to cut a doorway every time she needs something.

I do my own thing, I follow my own path, and that's work. It takes work to do spells and it takes work to remind yourself that you don't have to follow what others say or do. Trust me, anything that wears down on my mental state is work and stress. I flow with my magic and I've found that Druids don't cast a circle (I've talked to a Druid so I know). My magic isn't affected by not casting a circle or calling quarters.

Anyway, there are others on this thread that don't cast circles or call quarters and that's one reason that I started commenting. Anyway, there is no wrong way to practice witchcraft.

Note: On the subject of hexing. If Eddie Long is proven to be guilty I'm so hexing his butt.

You freaking said that Wicca doesn't exist....

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I was repeating what Laurie Cabot said. She said that there's no such thing as a Wiccan and that there's no such thing as Wicca. Laurie has been practicing for a very long time and so I respect what she says and I believe what she says.

I'm a witch and not a Wiccan. I don't mind hexing people as long as I know that their guilty, as there's proof presented in a court of law, and I don't mind cursing people. I don't cast a circle because of the fact that my mother comes in and asks me to do things. I also don't cast a circle because I don't feel the energy of the circle.

I also think that casting a circle is a waste of time. I said that if I need to cast a circle I do it mentally but that's once every five years. I'm fine not casting a circle or calling quarters. I don't believe in harming none, I'm a witch that gets things done.

I don't like things turning into a debate because this site is very much against that. I think that if you want to debate this that you should go to the debate section. I'm not going to defend my reasons for what I do, how I cast my magic, or what kind of witchcraft that I do. I like how Laurie Cabot practices and if I was living up in Salem I would join her coven.

[Nox_Mortus]

I was repeating what Laurie Cabot said. She said that there's no such thing as a Wiccan and that there's no such thing as Wicca. Laurie has been practicing for a very long time and so I respect what she says and I believe what she says.



She's also batshit crazy, have you ever actually met her before?

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I live in Mass I can meet her anytime I want. The reason that I haven't met her is because I don't have the money to go up there and see her. She was in her store in December when I called about a Athame. Why do you think that she's crazy? She seems sane to me.

[Nox_Mortus]

I live in Mass I can meet her anytime I want. The reason that I haven't met her is because I don't have the money to go up there and see her. She was in her store in December when I called about a Athame. Why do you think that she's crazy? She seems sane to me.

Well her police record for one... Also she gave off a distinctly crazy vibe both times I met her, her books give me the same vibe.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

What exactly did she do to get in trouble with the police. Personally I think that these comments are getting out of context with the thread. I've read her book "Power of the Witch' and I really liked it. I didn't get any bad vibes at all and I think that she has guts to wear her robes in public. She has also done work with children, which got her the title.

[Nox_Mortus]

she's caused more than a couple of disturbance by acting out in public, she once apparently tried to curse a police officer during a custody dispute, and then when asked about it retreated to the threefold law stuff (which of course you seem to deny believing in.) There's a little blurb about it on her wiki page, I'll see if I can find a more substantial article.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

No matter what she's done it still doesn't change the fact that she knows what she's talking about. Can we please return to the topic of the tread.

[kagekarasu]

Wicca checklist:

-Belief in Lord and Lady or gods in general
-Casting a circle every time you do any spellwork
-Belief in karma or the three fold law
-Calling corners or watch towers
-Celebrating the Sabbats
-Belief in "an ye harm none, unless in defense"
-Belief in the Summerlands
-Assigning directions to elements

To me these are the things that make a Wiccan and if you do or believe in half or more of these, you most likely are a Wiccan. These are all things from different beliefs and practices that have been merged together to form Wicca. Many practices have 3 of these principals, but it's the 4th that pushes you into the Wicca category.

[Sundragon]

I'm don't know very many non-Wiccan witches...don't know all that many Wiccans for that matter but do know more Wiccans than non-Wiccans.

Whe you say non-Wiccan Witchcraft you are referring to the spellwork, the magickal non-religious aspect of the Craft? Are you referring to pre-Gardenarian cunning man/woman type work which is an amalgam of different, even Christian, sources? Do you still cast circles, call the quarters, celebrate Sabbats and Esbats, etc. such as in Wiccan practice?

I'm sincerely curious because I see this rift between Wiccans and non-Wiccan Witches and was wondering where the differences lie. I always thought that we used largely the same source materials from Gardener, to Valiente, to Leek, to Rankine, the Farrars and Penczak. If it is different from Wicca, what is the source material for Traditional Witchcraft?

Are you practicing Wicca sans the Harm None element? I ask because I know Wiccans who are pretty flexible with that bit of dogma. According to some of what I am reading here, I wouldn't be a Wiccan because I don't feel the Threefold law is an accurate understanding of Karma. Wicca is not a monolithic and heavily dogmatic faith and allows great flexibility. However, if you do everything (regarding praxis) that a Wiccan does but simply don't want to be seen as "fluffy" aren't you just a Wiccan avoiding the term?

I'm not trying to be controversial or insulting (and I apologize before hand for making anyone upset with my questions) however the differences I see between Wiccans and non-Wiccan Witches is less than the differences between Lutherans and Catholics for example, but neither is claiming to be other than Christian. I think the rift between Wiccans and non-Wiccans is nonsense and the source of useless division.


)o( Blessed Be,

Christopher

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Thanks for your comment Snapdragon. It's so nice to see someone keeping on topic. One of the reasons that I'm not a Wiccan is that it's been hijacked by the Witchlings. Now I'm not insulting teens that actually travel the path but I am talking about those that do Wicca to be cool or it's hip. Also lets add to shock their parents.

I had always assumed, for those that are Wiccan, that it was a serious path. Also I'm not even going to go into the books. If I did I would probably get a headache. Now you know mainly why, aside from ritual and magic, why I'm not a Wiccan but a witch.

[Sundragon]

I was repeating what Laurie Cabot said. She said that there's no such thing as a Wiccan and that there's no such thing as Wicca. Laurie has been practicing for a very long time and so I respect what she says and I believe what she says.

I'm a witch and not a Wiccan. I don't mind hexing people as long as I know that their guilty, as there's proof presented in a court of law, and I don't mind cursing people. I don't cast a circle because of the fact that my mother comes in and asks me to do things. I also don't cast a circle because I don't feel the energy of the circle.

I also think that casting a circle is a waste of time. I said that if I need to cast a circle I do it mentally but that's once every five years. I'm fine not casting a circle or calling quarters. I don't believe in harming none, I'm a witch that gets things done.

I don't like things turning into a debate because this site is very much against that. I think that if you want to debate this that you should go to the debate section. I'm not going to defend my reasons for what I do, how I cast my magic, or what kind of witchcraft that I do. I like how Laurie Cabot practices and if I was living up in Salem I would join her coven.

I read some of Laurie Cabot's writing and she is a Wiccan, even if she claims otherwise. She can call herself whatever she wants but even a cursory reading of her writings indicates that she is Wiccan ie. a practitioner of an eclectic and syncretic faith/practice rooted, even if loosely, in the works of Gerald Gardener, Doreen Valiente and Raymond Buckland.

I can call myself an amazonian princess but it doesn't make me one.

I don't always cast a circle (though usually I do), don't believe the Threefold law is particularly valid and sometimes only celebrate Sabbats and/or Esbats with light ritual and heavy meditation. I am also very shamanic in my practice. According to Ms. Cabot I am not a Wiccan either I guess.

I would recommend reading up on Jung and Joseph Campbell in regards to symbolism. Even if you don't find it useful to cast a circle and work with other "official" Wiccan symbolism, your subconscious mind has a use for such things. Over time, something clicks in the inner-mind in regards to consistantly used symbols and you can find yourself with access to levels of your consciousness and power beyond which you are accustomed.

Laurie Cabot, who I see as a bit of a loveable crank, is wrong.


)o( Blessed Be,

Chris

[Sundragon]

Thanks for your comment Snapdragon. It's so nice to see someone keeping on topic. One of the reasons that I'm not a Wiccan is that it's been hijacked by the Witchlings. Now I'm not insulting teens that actually travel the path but I am talking about those that do Wicca to be cool or it's hip. Also lets add to shock their parents.

I had always assumed, for those that are Wiccan, that it was a serious path. Also I'm not even going to go into the books. If I did I would probably get a headache. Now you know mainly why, aside from ritual and magic, why I'm not a Wiccan but a witch.

Well at least you are forthright in your reasoning. However, if most of what you do falls into the category of traditional Wiccan praxis then why not help to reclaim Wicca from the little witchlings as you call them (LOL by the way). I am not "fluffy" (hate the term but use it here as an easy reference) but I am still Wiccan.

My blog is about reclaiming depth in Wiccan spiritual practice. I would prefer to take the name Wicca back from bad pop-Wiccandom and help it to be a respected faith tradtion than to abandon it. Maybe we can help the witchlings deepen their practice instead of leaving them to blow in the wind.


)o( Blessed Be,

Christopher

[TuathaSidhe]

for me, not believing in the religion.

Witchcraft was around long before Wicca, Wicca came from Witchcraft so of course there are going to be some things that are similar. However for most, Wicca is a religion while Witchcraft is not.

non Wiccan witch here because I do not believe in the religion.

[herbal_legends]

Well at least you are forthright in your reasoning. However, if most of what you do falls into the category of traditional Wiccan praxis then why not help to reclaim Wicca from the little witchlings as you call them (LOL by the way). I am not "fluffy" (hate the term but use it here as an easy reference) but I am still Wiccan.

My blog is about reclaiming depth in Wiccan spiritual practice. I would prefer to take the name Wicca back from bad pop-Wiccandom and help it to be a respected faith tradtion than to abandon it. Maybe we can help the witchlings deepen their practice instead of leaving them to blow in the wind.


)o( Blessed Be,

Christopher


I don't think anyone can reclaim it...the damage has been done lol. The only way I see it happening is if a new name is come up with...and/or something branches from the Wicca that everyone knows today. As horrible at it sounds....there's already a need for Wiccan reconstructionism hahaha

[Sundragon]

I don't think anyone can reclaim it...the damage has been done lol. The only way I see it happening is if a new name is come up with...and/or something branches from the Wicca that everyone knows today. As horrible at it sounds....there's already a need for Wiccan reconstructionism hahaha

LOL Wiccan Reconstructionism. No thanks, we have way too many IMO reconstructionisms going on right now as it is. I have no desire to see the Gardenerian Tradition of Wicca paraded around as a the One True Faith or the One Right Way.

Consider this though, some of the best witchy authors consider themselves Wiccan. Christopher Penczak, David Rankine, Phyllis Curott, T. Thorn Coyle (Feri is a Wiccan tradition I believe), Lipp, and others are firmly in the Wiccan camp even if they aren't little Charmed/Harry Potteresque witchlings. They all have different styles, but they are certainly not fluffy...as in airheaded/lacking in knowledge/pollyanna.

Of the non-Wicca Witches I have known they may not be white-light fluffy but they can be fluffy in their own way...the whole I'm dark and deep thing. Just as likely to be all style and no substance as any fluffy Wiccan they just prefer shadows. I even knew a couple vampire and satanic witches...so dark, so brooding, so cheesy.

Wiccans don't corner the market on empty style vs. substance practitioners or posers who like being witchy and dress up in robes without knowing their magickal ass from a hole in the ground. All magickal and mystical paths attract these kinds Wicca is just the most popular.


)o( Blessed Be,

Chris

[kagekarasu]

I'm sincerely curious because I see this rift between Wiccans and non-Wiccan Witches and was wondering where the differences lie. I always thought that we used largely the same source materials from Gardener, to Valiente, to Leek, to Rankine, the Farrars and Penczak. If it is different from Wicca, what is the source material for Traditional Witchcraft?


Traditional witchcraft comes from just that, tradition. No two witches practice the same. Their beliefs come from family and/or within. There are no true books on traditional witchcraft as if anyone wrote down how they do things, it would just be that, how they do things and would not speak for any other traditional witches. Most of tradition will look at those authors you listed and laugh a bit. We'll skim through those books and try to see if there's anything of interest, but for the most part, we try to forget we read it. We do research every branch of witchcraft there is, like Voodoo, Kabbalah, Thelma, etc. and especially folk magic and old folk lore also known to some as Hoodoo.

I personally learned the basis of my craft from my great grandmother who was Cherokee and what most would consider a shaman. She taught me from a very early age. From there I got to learn Irish folk magic, New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo from other relatives. I was encouraged to learn as much as I could, especially by my mother who doesn't practice but told me if I was going to be a witch, I'd better be a well rounded one and s I did. I look every where for information. I know the use of herbs and plants not only from a magical standpoint in one tradition or idea but several as well as the medical uses and Chinese medicine as well. I've looked at every piece of information on magic I can find from like the Black Pullet to books written today, though I will say that Wicca really turns me away.

To sum up a bit of what traditional witches believe, I'll give you a link to a wonderful website where many traditional witches gather.

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/2625-traditional-craft-by-startella/

From this article you can tell, there's various beliefs. Not one trad witch can speak for another. As for Wicca, it's a religion so everyone believes in something similar to each other.

[TuathaSidhe]

Kage put it very well, for Trad. Witches its not about the religion/magic Wicca holds, its about..well, tradition and what we are taught, what we learn and using what works for us. It can be a little bit of this or a little but of that.

Keep in mind, that Trad. site, does not welcome Wiccans on it.

'tis a good read though.

[Micheál]

Traditional Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, and an orthopraxy. Upon initiation into Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft(Wicca), one becomes a "Witch."

If one associates with Wicca's (Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft's) outercourt information, and wants to call themselves Wiccan, I'm not going to necessarily say that they're not, regardless of what I believe, because it's a controversial high-jacked term, but I will say it's a whole different issue when neo-Wiccans try to define what Wicca is, and isn't, especially when they don't have knowledge of it's innercourt mysteries, and this includes a lot of so called "Wiccan" authors

[Sundragon]

Traditional witchcraft comes from just that, tradition. No two witches practice the same. Their beliefs come from family and/or within. There are no true books on traditional witchcraft as if anyone wrote down how they do things, it would just be that, how they do things and would not speak for any other traditional witches.

Basically you are speaking of something similar to the cunning man/woman practices of Britain. Each practitioner was unique in regards to their practice though many did similar work.


Most of tradition will look at those authors you listed and laugh a bit. We'll skim through those books and try to see if there's anything of interest, but for the most part, we try to forget we read it. We do research every branch of witchcraft there is, like Voodoo, Kabbalah, Thelma, etc. and especially folk magic and old folk lore also known to some as Hoodoo.

To be fair, to call Kabbalah, Thelema and Voodoo "witchcraft" is a bit of a stretch. I only say this because these are completely distinct traditions and practices rooted in their own map of reality. Are you speaking of lifting the effective techniques from the above mentioned traditions/practices? If this is what you mean than you are lifting "what works" practically from these traditions I'll go along. Not different at all from what Wiccans do all the time.

So basically, Traditional Witchcraft weaves into itself effective techniques from diverse traditions making it an eclectic form of sorcery.


I personally learned the basis of my craft from my great grandmother who was Cherokee and what most would consider a shaman. She taught me from a very early age. From there I got to learn Irish folk magic, New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo from other relatives. I was encouraged to learn as much as I could, especially by my mother who doesn't practice but told me if I was going to be a witch, I'd better be a well rounded one and s I did. I look every where for information. I know the use of herbs and plants not only from a magical standpoint in one tradition or idea but several as well as the medical uses and Chinese medicine as well. I've looked at every piece of information on magic I can find from like the Black Pullet to books written today, though I will say that Wicca really turns me away.

You've basically verified what I thought. You are a sorceror not tied to any particular doctrine/praxis other than your own fliexible tradition that allows for you absorb the useful elements of other traditions. In other words you are an eclectic practitioner of magick.

Strangely enough there is strikingly little difference between your methodology and my own save that mine contains a strong religious element. Along with Pagan magick I work with Buddhist/Yogic meditation techniques, Chinese energy work (qigong), and core shamanic practices along with other work I have found to be effective.

What you have described isn't uncommon amongst Wiccans so I fail to see the chasm that seperates us. Is it really the religious aspect perhaps? Nothing you've written strikes me as something that I haven't seen in well read/practiced eclectic Wiccans.


To sum up a bit of what traditional witches believe, I'll give you a link to a wonderful website where many traditional witches gather.

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/2625-traditional-craft-by-startella/

From this article you can tell, there's various beliefs. Not one trad witch can speak for another. As for Wicca, it's a religion so everyone believes in something similar to each other.

I'll check out the link. Thanks for the information.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[Sundragon]

Traditional Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, and an orthopraxy. Upon initiation into Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft(Wicca), one becomes a "Witch."

If one associates with Wicca's (Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft's) outercourt information, and wants to call themselves Wiccan, I'm not going to necessarily say that they're not, regardless of what I believe, because it's a controversial high-jacked term, but I will say it's a whole different issue when neo-Wiccans try to define what Wicca is, and isn't, especially when they don't have knowledge of it's innercourt mysteries, and this includes a lot of so called "Wiccan" authors

All credible evidence indicates that Gardener crafted his own tradition by combining folk magickal practice found in Britain at the time with ceremonial magickal elements found in the practices of the Golden Dawn and Crowley.

Qabalistic/Hermetic magickal foundations are found throughout all Wiccan practice. Even the duotheism of Wicca is Qabalistic/Hermetic in nature and clearly indicated on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. No pagan faith of antiquity was clearly duotheistic in the manner of Wicca and certainly no belief system evidenced in the British Isles, the birthplace of Wicca. This is not to denigrate Traditional British Witchcraft but merely an acknowledgement of its roots.

Even the issue of inner vs. outer court teachings seem rooted in the Order of the Golden Dawn and Masonry who have their outer order practices and their deeper inner order teachings. Masonry isn't magickal in and of itself, but the Golden Dawn based its structure around pre-existing masonic forms.

Alexandrian Wicca is a combination of Gardenerian belief/practice with a heavy dose of obviously Hermetic magickal practice. Alex Sanders adapted Gardener's work for his own practice and "poof" another tradition was born.

This is always how traditions are born. Visionary leader combines effective practices, adds his/her own unique spin on things, give it a name, and now you have a tradition in which individuals can root their own personal practice/belief.

I've practiced ceremonial magick even longer than I've practiced Wiccan magick and I can state emphatically that the real mysteries of any tradition are to be found in the inner experiences of the practitioner. If anyone, from ceremonialist to Wiccan simply does what's printed in books, they will be sorely limited. Spirit/God/The Gods/spirits/etc. communicate the secrets of magick/spirituality directly to the practitioner. These communications find themelves woven into current traditions and sometimes birth entirely new traditions.

Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy have their place, but the mystic ultimately transcends any "book learning" even if that book sontains the secrets of a given tradition ie. the Book of Shadows. One transcends given knowledge and enters into the realm of experiencial knowledge and because each mystic/magician is subtly unique psychologically/etherically/spiritually the "secrets" they are made privy to may or may not be valid for others.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Love all your comments. I think the greatest example of a non-wiccan is of course the Pennsylvania Dutch Pow-Wow practitioners. Now I don't think that they would call themselves witches but their pretty interesting people. Their a dying breed due to things like outside influences, marrying outside the group, stuff like that. I'm part Pennsylvania Dutch and years ago I tried to find out information.

Both me and my mother were shocked that there was hardly nothing out there about our part of our family and grandfather didn't have any records of who his mother or father had been or there relations. Saddens me greatly, though I'm still interested in learning about the Penn Dutch. Of course Silver Ravenwolf had to get involved, though not by our hands, and publish that horrible book Hex Craft.

Found a better book by Karl Herr called 'Hex and Spellwork'. My brother is buying it for me.

So with my Penn Dutch traditional heritage, my Native American, my Celtic, and Italian I think I'm one pretty magical person.

[RoseKitten]

I'm curious as to why, that because a bunch of kids "play witch" that it would invalidate a truly beautiful and wonderful path. Honestly, if someone wants to tell me their a ninja, they can feel free, real ninjas won't stop practicing because of it.

Just because people are too lazy to do any real research, doesn't invalidate paths that are out there. I deal with that in a Sumerian context on an annoyingly regular basis. Saying that my path, my faith, my practice, etc. is invalid, stupid, or wrong in some way because either 1) the "teenage craze" took it over (in name only by the way, not that many people seem to care), or 2) because you don't follow it/understand it, makes one look like a fool.

There is more to most paths then what you will ever find in a bookstore like Borders or B&N, and a good deal of what is well known is junk when it comes to occult material. It's a shame that so many people will toss aside wonderful things because of what a few idiots do, say, or think.

I have no desire to break down the posts that have been made while I was gone, because it's just angers me that I am somehow invalid because others have no clue about my path. Good job, you know, because I'd hoped that on a pagan forum a lot of this "I don't like your path, so it doesn't count" crap wouldn't exist. But, every few months, it happens again, and I'm just tired.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Are you talking about what I said or are you doing a general rant. If your doing a general rant then keep on going. I love hearing people rant. On the subject of the Pennsylvania Dutch their actual called the Pennsylvania Germans. They came over with William Penn during the 1600's and somehow, along the way, they were suddenly known as the Pennsylvania Dutch.

Personally I don't think the person that twisted their origins was smart. To me I'm Pennsylvania German but since so many of the Pennsylvania Dutch call themselves Pennsylvania Dutch then I guess that's what they are. The Pennsylvania Dutch, or German, brought their magical practices from Germany to the New World and they take the form of the Amish and the Mennonites.

The Mennonites have the hex signs, which also work as a means of getting what you need, as a form of folk magic, the Amish don't do hex signs. The Pow-wow's, and no not the Indians, do the magical work. Originally only men could work in the area of being a Pow-Wow practitioner but with the introduction of the American Medical Association in the early 1900's things changed and slowly the Pow-Wow practitioner fell out of favor.

Now their back, due to the New Age moment, and even women are taking part. People that practice Pow-wow know the medical and magical properties of plants, can cure the skin and heal, can give you magical plants and powders to improve your life, and battles women that have actually, and I'm not making this up, sold their soul to the Devil.

These soul-selling women are black witches, not even close to Wiccans with their belief in not harming people. These black witches will harm you. The Pow-Wow practitioner will actually fight the hexes and curses that the soul-selling witch has done. Something to note: Pow-Wow practitioners do not have anything against Wicca. Oh and they also read cards.

Thank you for listening to my words.

[Micheál]

All credible evidence indicates that Gardener crafted his own tradition by combining folk magickal practice found in Britain at the time with ceremonial magickal elements found in the practices of the Golden Dawn and Crowley.

Qabalistic/Hermetic magickal foundations are found throughout all Wiccan practice. Even the duotheism of Wicca is Qabalistic/Hermetic in nature and clearly indicated on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. No pagan faith of antiquity was clearly duotheistic in the manner of Wicca and certainly no belief system evidenced in the British Isles, the birthplace of Wicca. This is not to denigrate Traditional British Witchcraft but merely an acknowledgement of its roots.

Even the issue of inner vs. outer court teachings seem rooted in the Order of the Golden Dawn and Masonry who have their outer order practices and their deeper inner order teachings. Masonry isn't magickal in and of itself, but the Golden Dawn based its structure around pre-existing masonic forms.

Alexandrian Wicca is a combination of Gardenerian belief/practice with a heavy dose of obviously Hermetic magickal practice. Alex Sanders adapted Gardener's work for his own practice and "poof" another tradition was born.

This is always how traditions are born. Visionary leader combines effective practices, adds his/her own unique spin on things, give it a name, and now you have a tradition in which individuals can root their own personal practice/belief.

I've practiced ceremonial magick even longer than I've practiced Wiccan magick and I can state emphatically that the real mysteries of any tradition are to be found in the inner experiences of the practitioner. If anyone, from ceremonialist to Wiccan simply does what's printed in books, they will be sorely limited. Spirit/God/The Gods/spirits/etc. communicate the secrets of magick/spirituality directly to the practitioner. These communications find themelves woven into current traditions and sometimes birth entirely new traditions.

Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy have their place, but the mystic ultimately transcends any "book learning" even if that book sontains the secrets of a given tradition ie. the Book of Shadows. One transcends given knowledge and enters into the realm of experiencial knowledge and because each mystic/magician is subtly unique psychologically/etherically/spiritually the "secrets" they are made privy to may or may not be valid for others.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon
That's something Bonewitz and Kelly tried to emphasise, but containing elements of ancient heritage is something Hutton left as debatable. This is also something that every Traditional Wiccan is well aware of, in Ireland at least, where every 1st Degree is required to read Triumph of the Moon, and the former is accepted as pseudohistory and myth.

Gardner admitted his tradition was fragmented, and filled the fragments in with what he thought was appropriate. Since he was chartered to found an O.T.O Lodge to take over all English speaking districts, and also being a Co Mason, are among the obvious, including writings from Helena Blavatsky, to Romantic poets. However, besides having a Wiccan background, I also happen to be a Freemason, and an initiated member of the O.T.O, and to say "Qabalistic/Hermetic magickal foundations are found throughout all Wiccan practice,", I would consider very misleading. It is present in places, but limited outside of the degree system, and certain rites, and the Qabalah and CM is something Wiccans will also study on the side, because Wicca very much so has its own mysteries. As an Alexandrian HPriest I know stated perfectly, "If you have not been initiated and brought trough the mysteries you are not a Wiccan you are a pagan following a wiccan path."

Another thing kind of off topic, and just something in general I've noticed, it seems to me when a lot of people(that I've noticed started as neo-Wiccans) never go on to pursue it Traditionally, will make claims later of following a family Traditional Witchcraft tradition, because its "older." I have to say a lot of these claims are fabrications. I see a lot of "Irish family" traditions from people in the States, which is odd, because you can't find any of these traditions in Ireland, from either other pagans, or anyone sharing the family name. As Hutton also pointed out in regards to charmers, and cunningfolk, "water witches", and "horse whispers" and such are traditions that would run in families, but were skills that the holders could share with any friend, or family member. Most cunningfolk were literate, and learned what they know from reading books, much like a lot of todays youth aspiring to be witches. There are few family traditions believed to have been in existence, and there's as much credible evidence to prove their existence as there is the New Forest Coven, for all of those that emphasise Gardner's fragments, but follow a "Traditional" path themselves passed down through their family.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Interesting. The Romanian Gypsy witches are defiantly (sorry if I misspelled that) not Wiccan. They had a nice video about them. They are family traditional, with gifts that they are born with. My gift, along with my mother's, and all the women from my grandfather's line all have psychic gifts. They don't always use them but they know that their there. One of the reasons that none of the woman went into Pow-Wow, and the men are too stupid and wrapped up in their own lives, is because the practice was closed to women.

My mother wants me to be the first woman in our family to practice. I'm thinking about it, but I want to read books written by those that practice before I decide if I want to do this.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Just as a aside note but I though the German's that came over with the Dutch into the Penn Colony were actually called "Dunkers". They moved down the Shenandoah valley into Virginia and stayed for a number of years before moving back up into the PA area.

[TheLittleWitchy]

In my opinion, if someone seems Wiccan but simply calls themselves a witch, then I am guessing they want more freedom to change or do what they want. A religion such as Wicca is more constructed. So there may be certain limitations. And also, there is the argument "Well your not a Wiccan if you don't do this, this and that" - that is actually what drove me away from Wicca. People trying to tell me I am wrong or doing things the wrong way.

"Witch" has so much freedom cause there are all sorts of witches, and it is very individual. Over time I have come to call myself a green witch. I prefer to focus on herbs, the elements and nature in general. But also have my own freedom - without having to follow any rules or complicated ritual.

[Micheál]

Also note, I'm specifically referring to the British Isles. You'll find people here that swear they have family members who are bone menders, or blood cotters, being able to do so with certain phrases. There's folk traditions and superstitions that have been associated with witchcraft. My wife's grandmother even knew of some, and there was a lady in their town people wouldn't let look at their cows. A lot of this stuff was just word of mouth knowledge, from people that were Christians. Hanging a horse shoe on the barn to ward hexes, or putting eggs in the neighbours butter to make their cows go dry. Even in the Gaeltacht, it's rare that you hear about any of such being inherited in an elaborate form of family religious tradition. I'm not saying that certain family traditions didn't exist, as the likes of Bitty Early, and Mary Butters show otherwise, but it's odd that at a time when the Gaeltacht traditions themselves are lingering on their final frontier, we see countless traditions alive and well on the internet.

[LadyDryad]

Are you talking about what I said or are you doing a general rant. If your doing a general rant then keep on going. I love hearing people rant. On the subject of the Pennsylvania Dutch their actual called the Pennsylvania Germans. They came over with William Penn during the 1600's and somehow, along the way, they were suddenly known as the Pennsylvania Dutch.

Personally I don't think the person that twisted their origins was smart. To me I'm Pennsylvania German but since so many of the Pennsylvania Dutch call themselves Pennsylvania Dutch then I guess that's what they are. The Pennsylvania Dutch, or German, brought their magical practices from Germany to the New World and they take the form of the Amish and the Mennonites.

The Mennonites have the hex signs, which also work as a means of getting what you need, as a form of folk magic, the Amish don't do hex signs. The Pow-wow's, and no not the Indians, do the magical work. Originally only men could work in the area of being a Pow-Wow practitioner but with the introduction of the American Medical Association in the early 1900's things changed and slowly the Pow-Wow practitioner fell out of favor.

Now their back, due to the New Age moment, and even women are taking part. People that practice Pow-wow know the medical and magical properties of plants, can cure the skin and heal, can give you magical plants and powders to improve your life, and battles women that have actually, and I'm not making this up, sold their soul to the Devil.

These soul-selling women are black witches, not even close to Wiccans with their belief in not harming people. These black witches will harm you. The Pow-Wow practitioner will actually fight the hexes and curses that the soul-selling witch has done. Something to note: Pow-Wow practitioners do not have anything against Wicca. Oh and they also read cards.

Thank you for listening to my words.

I suspect one of the reasons they may have become to Pennsylvania "Dutch" is that they were "Deutsch", which is the German word for German. People probably couldn't pronounce it, and changed it to Dutch.

The name "Pow wow" is definitely an Americanized thing...to my knowledge the Germans in Germany did not call it that.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

No the Pow-Wow part came when the German's that arrived to the New World watched the Indians dances and meetings. They traded knowledge of plants and other practices. Read it in an article that was given to me by someone else on the German Recon section of this site.

[herbal_legends]

I do admit that Wicca is indeed a beautiful religion and I have great respect for anyone who claims to be Wiccan and is true to the religion.

I just am too stubborn and don't have the patience to adhere to the rules/limitations placed upon me (though some say they are only suggestions). I feel if I can't be true to the religion completely, then I'd rather not place myself under that umbrella.

Basically my thinking was, { WHY do I need to call the watch towers? WTH are watch towers and what do they have to do with my personal connection to nature....I don't need any third parties thank you! I don't want to cast a circle when I want to cast a spell! WHY do I need all these fancy ritual tools laid out on an elaborate altar? I don't want to honor a Goddess and Horned God because I feel silly doing it and I don't believe it when I am doing it. I'd rather not 'an it harm none, do as ye will'...cuz if I feel I need to harm someone, I'm gonna do it! And I don't need anybody (or thing) telling me what is good and bad....}

People say that Wicca can be flexible....but flexible in what sense?

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I'll agree that Wicca is too limiting and everyone has their own way of practicing. We need to find our own thing and work with that.

On another note my brother bought me that book "Hex and Spellcraft' by Karl Kerr. I really can't wait to get my hands on it. The other books, sigh, will have to wait. Going to be looking in the P.O Box for it.

[Sundragon]

I do admit that Wicca is indeed a beautiful religion and I have great respect for anyone who claims to be Wiccan and is true to the religion.

Thanks, you're a doll. :snug:


just am too stubborn and don't have the patience to adhere to the rules/limitations placed upon me (though some say they are only suggestions). I feel if I can't be true to the religion completely, then I'd rather not place myself under that umbrella.

No one is true to their religion completely. Only an automaton would ever be able to buy into any religion 100%. The fact is that we all get to the point in our growth where we learn, through experience, what is true (for us) and what is false (for use) in regards to a faith. Each person is highly individual in regards to what they need spiritually.

Honestly, I can worship with nearly anyone on earth comfortably because I realize that all religions are merely a shorthand way in which to approach Deity, none are more right than the others and most are probably far more wrong than right.


Basically my thinking was, { WHY do I need to call the watch towers? WTH are watch towers and what do they have to do with my personal connection to nature....I don't need any third parties thank you! I don't want to cast a circle when I want to cast a spell! WHY do I need all these fancy ritual tools laid out on an elaborate altar? I don't want to honor a Goddess and Horned God because I feel silly doing it and I don't believe it when I am doing it. I'd rather not 'an it harm none, do as ye will'...cuz if I feel I need to harm someone, I'm gonna do it! And I don't need anybody (or thing) telling me what is good and bad....}

Well it is important to note that the elements represent psycho-spiritual potentials within us and beyond us. In opening the watchtowers we are actively entreating all of reality (as represented by the elements) to come and participate in this working. On a deeper level we are calling forth the elemental aspects of ourselves to participate. The inner-mind is a real sucker for ritualized work and responds very well to being summoned in this manner. In all our magick we want our conscious and subconscious (or unconcious) mind to be in sync.

Well, it is my understading and experience that the Goddess and the Horned God are merely Wicca's representation of ineffable, and untimately undefinable, Deity. It is simply that most people can develop of personal relationship more easily with deities represented in some way than with the Absolute Everything/Nothing that is the real Deity at the heart of all things. They are symbols of a totality that is beyond expression, representations that we can relate to and interact with. They are the Yin and Yang of Wicca, the polarities, nothing more, nothing less. They are, ultimately, no more an accurate representation of the Godhead than is Ganesha, Jesus, Allah, or Marduk. In other words they are wrong, but they are as right as we are going to get in this world.

Also, all of us need to be accountable to something. Maybe its the gods maybe its ourselves, maybe its our community, maybe it's all of these things. It is easy for anyone to lose themselves and slip into some pretty negative things without a quick reference to the ethical code we choose to adhere to. Rules like "Harm None" are a way of guiding one's actions when we would otherwise fall off track. All moral codes are a just a guide even though they are usually more helpful than not.


People say that Wicca can be flexible....but flexible in what sense?

I'm a Wiccan who doesn't hold to a simplistic 3-Fold Law or finds palatible a blanket decree of Harm None. I think that the Summerlands are merely a quaint representation of the afterlife and that Wicca needs a greater affirmation of the Self (Higher Self, God-Within, Atman) within the tradition. I am a soft polytheist and in some ways close to monotheistic in my understanding of Deity. I am a Wiccan who practices both Buddhist meditation, Centering Prayer and qigong.

Wicca is flexible because it is non-dogmatic. Wicca allows for both the subtracting of non-core teachings and the adding of materials that are effective but would have fallen far outside the purview of ancient pagan practice. Wicca is extremely flexible.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[herbal_legends]

haha Sundragon you always speak so eloquently about Wicca :graduate:

[RaeCori]

I do admit that Wicca is indeed a beautiful religion and I have great respect for anyone who claims to be Wiccan and is true to the religion.

I just am too stubborn and don't have the patience to adhere to the rules/limitations placed upon me (though some say they are only suggestions). I feel if I can't be true to the religion completely, then I'd rather not place myself under that umbrella.

Basically my thinking was, { WHY do I need to call the watch towers? WTH are watch towers and what do they have to do with my personal connection to nature....I don't need any third parties thank you! I don't want to cast a circle when I want to cast a spell! WHY do I need all these fancy ritual tools laid out on an elaborate altar? I don't want to honor a Goddess and Horned God because I feel silly doing it and I don't believe it when I am doing it. I'd rather not 'an it harm none, do as ye will'...cuz if I feel I need to harm someone, I'm gonna do it! And I don't need anybody (or thing) telling me what is good and bad....}


OMGs... you are Granny Weatherwax. Anybody who has read Terry Pratchett will understand that statement!

If you haven't read any of The Discworld series by brit author Terry Pratchett...you need to go to the nearest book store as soon as they open...better yet...be there before they open. Then you need to buy all the discworld books, there's 38 I think, and spend they day reading!! :thumbsup:

You make me smile HL! Hugs for that

[Sundragon]

haha Sundragon you always speak so eloquently about Wicca :graduate:

Thanks, I do my best. :uhhuhuh:

What helped me to understand Wicca was to not be Wiccan for a number of years. I studied and practiced many things and have brought that experience back to Wicca. No matter what anyone claims to the contrary, Wicca is a new religion. Sure the gods and many of the concepts are ancient, but the manner in which the faith is practiced is new. Therefore Wiccans have a lot to learn from other faith traditions.

If I didn't step out of Wicca for a time immersing myself in other things I wouldn't be a Wiccan now. I would probably be either still be a qabalist/ceremonial magician or an Esoteric Christian. It was only by stepping away from the tradtion did I grow to appreciate it. Wicca speaks to me in a visceral way as nothing else does.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[herbal_legends]

OMGs... you are Granny Weatherwax. Anybody who has read Terry Pratchett will understand that statement!

If you haven't read any of The Discworld series by brit author Terry Pratchett...you need to go to the nearest book store as soon as they open...better yet...be there before they open. Then you need to buy all the discworld books, there's 38 I think, and spend they day reading!! :thumbsup:

You make me smile HL! Hugs for that

Aww thanks :cutie:
I just read her bio on Wiki and I am intrigued.
I'll definitely have to go check out the series now :uhhuhuh:







If I didn't step out of Wicca for a time immersing myself in other things I wouldn't be a Wiccan now. I would probably be either still be a qabalist/ceremonial magician or an Esoteric Christian. It was only by stepping away from the tradtion did I grow to appreciate it. Wicca speaks to me in a visceral way as nothing else does.




I haven't given up complete hope on Wicca. But I think the last time I admitted to calling myself Wiccan was 8 years ago (wow! almost a decade lol) I still feel like my spiritual journey is just beginning though.

[Sundragon]

I haven't given up complete hope on Wicca. But I think the last time I admitted to calling myself Wiccan was 8 years ago (wow! almost a decade lol) I still feel like my spiritual journey is just beginning though.

Actually before about six months ago I would have sworn I would have never called myself Wiccan again. I was a hard core ceremonial magician who saw Wicca as a quaint artifact from my younger days. It was only after a couple of powerful spiritual experiences relating specifically to Wiccan practice I realized that ceremonial magick/qabala, though intellectually very stimulating, wasn't my spiritual path in this life.

Wiccan ritual had opened me up to things that endless repetitions of the LBRP (Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram), the study of Hebrew numerology and bibilcal symbolism never had even after several years of dedicated practice.

Honestly I have to admit I am a far better mystic than I am a magician.

Prior to this I had given all my Wiccan books and tools to a friend who was just starting on the path. He was more than a little shocked when I came back to reclaim them. "Guess you gotta spend money on building your own Wiccan library buddy" I thought to myself even if I was too kind to say it.:devil:

You just have to give yourself time, if there is anything that has a long time requirement it is spiritual growth. There is no hurry, Wicca or whatever else you set your sights on will still be there when you are ready. Or you may find that what you are doing now suits you for the rest of your days. Only time will tell.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[RoseKitten]

Prior to this I had given all my Wiccan books and tools to a friend who was just starting on the path. He was more than a little shocked when I came back to reclaim them. "Guess you gotta spend money on building your own Wiccan library buddy" I thought to myself even if I was too kind to say it.:devil:



I'm usually pretty shocked when people give me gifts and then come and take them back.

I've never really understood the driving need to have books on Wicca, but I'm lucky to have access to the tradition, so books are more for the enjoyment then necessity.

[Sundragon]

I'm usually pretty shocked when people give me gifts and then come and take them back.

I've never really understood the driving need to have books on Wicca, but I'm lucky to have access to the tradition, so books are more for the enjoyment then necessity.

Well I implied the books were more an extended loan...however I may have indicated that the length of time would have been far longer.

I'm a bit of a book fetishist...I am addicted to books....or more accurately addicted to information. Only with great difficulty can I stop myself from buying well received books on Wicca, Witchcraft, magick, metaphysics or spiritual topics in general. I belong to Amazon prime so I get books I order within 48hrs no matter what. Hey, its only $80 a year to provide all purchases with no-cost second day air delivery. At my book buying rate, I would burn through that $80 in standard rate shipping costs in about 6 months.

Hey, it just about my only vice...so I am going to keep it. :uhhuhuh:

Also, when it comes to things like Wicca, shamanism, practical magick, meditation ie. things I fundamentally understand, I buy books to see if the author has a different or even more comprehensive point of view. More often than not I am disappointed though sometimes an author really stands out and I say, "Damn, I wish I wrote that."


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I personally think that people that practice Wicca need to get away from the books. A tiny portion of the authors are only in it to make money. I love books on the craft but I've read so many really bad books that I've given up on that area of the bookstore.

[LadyDryad]

I'm a bit of a book fetishist...I am addicted to books....or more accurately addicted to information. Only with great difficulty can I stop myself from buying well received books on Wicca, Witchcraft, magick, metaphysics or spiritual topics in general. I belong to Amazon prime so I get books I order within 48hrs no matter what. Hey, its only $80 a year to provide all purchases with no-cost second day air delivery. At my book buying rate, I would burn through that $80 in standard rate shipping costs in about 6 months.

Hey, it just about my only vice...so I am going to keep it. :uhhuhuh:

Also, when it comes to things like Wicca, shamanism, practical magick, meditation ie. things I fundamentally understand, I buy books to see if the author has a different or even more comprehensive point of view. More often than not I am disappointed though sometimes an author really stands out and I say, "Damn, I wish I wrote that."


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

Me too.


I personally think that people that practice Wicca need to get away from the books. A tiny portion of the authors are only in it to make money. I love books on the craft but I've read so many really bad books that I've given up on that area of the bookstore.

I have lots of books that are written by Wiccans and/or for Wiccans, but I am not now, nor have I ever been one.

Sometimes I find it beneficial to just ignore what I DON'T like about certain books, because they are still full of interesting and/or useful information.

If you look past the crap in a lot of books, you can frequently find something that makes the book worth having been read.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I understand fully but it's a nerve-wracking process.

[LadyDryad]

I understand fully but it's a nerve-wracking process.

If you approach things like this with humour and not completely seriously, I think you'll find it's not as bad.

I've read lots of books where I just straight-out laughed at some of the contents.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Hedgewitch by Silver Ravenwolf was one of those laughed at books. A lot of Hedgewitches didn't like the book and boy are they making their views known.

[kagekarasu]

If you approach things like this with humour and not completely seriously, I think you'll find it's not as bad.

I've read lots of books where I just straight-out laughed at some of the contents.

I think this happens every time I read a book about witchcraft that was written after the wicca boom. Either the author is hardcore wiccan, saying they're not wiccan but it sounds really wiccan, or trying too hard to be different from wicca. Especially Michael Ford. His books have some interesting info, but they make me laugh every time.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I never heard of Michael Ford.

[kagekarasu]

I never heard of Michael Ford.

He's LHP writes mostly on Luciferian. He's very anti-wiccan. He takes himself way to seriously IMO.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Thanks for sharing.

[LadyDryad]

He's LHP writes mostly on Luciferian. He's very anti-wiccan. He takes himself way to seriously IMO.

A lot of people take themselves too seriously...so annoying, but funny to watch (or read)!

[DiscordianKitten]

You're really never going to find a book that is 100% what you believe, not if you're like me anyways.

I'll happily learn from any book. Whether it's Ravenfluffy or a fantasy novel written by Terry Pratchett. It's amazing where you can find truth - and at least when you laugh at the bits in Pratchett you're supposed to.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I love Terry Pratchett and his books, love the character of Granny Weatherwax. I'm going to agree with the whole thing about the books. I'm reading 'Power of the Witch' by Laurie Cabot with Tom Cowan. So far it's good and I haven't yet encountered fluffiness.

[SoulFire]

(Feri is a Wiccan tradition I believe)

Um, I'm afraid not. Some practitioners may consider themselves "Wiccan" or have dual membership in Feri and Wicca, but Feri itself is non-Wiccan.

[Maggie-in-the-Mead]

I loved reading this thread even though in places it did get a little biting.

I really wish I would have understood the distinction between the two in my teens. Now I know that teen Wiccans are looked down on by a lot here but I was very invested and took it all seriously. I know I'm not the only one. The problem was that at that time I thought Wiccan and Witch were one in the same. This is probably because all of the nice fluffy-bunny books I was reading was saying just that and used them interchangeably. So even though I didn't feel the need to cast circle or call quarters (that was the big one. I just don't get it) and though I didn't believe in the Summerland etc etc I still went along with it because the other bits were what I was feeling drawn to and I thought it was a whole package sort of deal. Even after I left it all behind I still went back to those bits. That's where I find myself now and it's liberating to be able to look at those things and say "not for me, thanks" and move on with what I do 'feel'. It's very nice to know that I wasn't alone and wasn't nuts, too. It also makes a lot more sense that when people I knew were loving being Wiccan I just didn't believe in or feel what they did but still felt Wiccan. I just didn't realize Witch isn't Wiccan and visa versa.

I think it would benefit a lot of seekers if this distinction was made clear and without the biting attitude towards either side.

[Maggie-in-the-Mead]

Oh and about Laurie Cabot- I have never met her and I have to admit I really am not interested in meeting her, either. I read her book "The Witch in Every Woman" and there were parts I loved though some of her personal stories just didn't sit right with me. And then I started researching her... Wowza! But I just wanted to say that though some people are batshit I don't think that makes them wrong in everything. A broken clock is still right twice a day. Take Cabot with a grain of salt, yes (take most things with a grain of salt!) but throwing her out altogether could mean missing out on some things, too. Just my $.02

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I've read her book, Power of the Witch, and it was pretty good.

[tigress42]

well... this makes a lot of sense actually... and sounds sort of along the lines of how i am - i believe in karma and reincarnation but not really the whole - threefold thing... nor can imagine doing esbats and all sorts of cermonies. i can see myself observing atleast a couple sabbats - with candles and food... but i think my type of magic is - energy, herbal stuff and all the incenese/oil/healing stone/gem chakra type stuffs... i would really only ever pray to gaia, maybe a few other greek ones depending on what i need...

i tried looking at/meditating with the power of the moon but it didnt resonate...
so reading some of these posts... makes me think i'm a witch, not a wiccan...

its nice to see so many great responses instead of the vugue "what do labels matter, you are your own thing..."

[Louisvillian]

If you feel that Wiccan and witch are seperate, what does it take to be a non-Wiccan witch? Should they have a different view of deity? Do they have to be more folk magic oriented rather than ceremonial? in other words, what constitutes a non-Wiccan witch?
What differentiates Wiccans from Witches that don't practise Wicca is that...the latter doesn't practise Wicca. Or identify as adherents to it.

Wicca is a particular religion, focusing on witchcraft and folk magic, but also including elements of ceremonial magic and an explicit affirmation of polytheism (hard, soft, or whatever). There's a whole philosophy, liturgy, ritual structure, and theology that accompanies it.
A non-Wiccan witch practises the craft of witchery, of folk magic and energy working. Deities aren't necessarily a part of it, nor are the ceremonial, ethical, and liturgical facets of Wicca that make it a religion unto itself.