magic vs witchcraft

[novimarra]

Hi everyone! Could anyone explain the difference between magic and witchcraft? Please feel free to go in depth! I don't see any easy difference, since I dropped the idea of witchcraft being inherently religious. _inabox_
Thanks!

[Toby Stimpson]

Well, it's simply this: magic is the 'force' so to speak, and is also the act of moving energy. Witchcraft is a form of magic use... the same as Necromancy, or High Magic, Ceremonial Magic...etc,.

Witchcraft in it's self is not a religiious phenomenon, sicne it is a term used to describe a certain practice, ie, using nmatural objects and things such as Herbs, candles, things like that. Eitchcraft is pretty much worldwide with many different names referring to it. NOW, Witchcraft can be mixed with religion, but there is no such thing as the religion of Witchcraft because it is an Art. Wicca is a religion that is heavily imbued with the use of Witchcraft... Wicca and Witchcraft are not interchengeable, although people may refer to themselves as Wiccans and as Witches (since they belong to Wicca, and perform Witchcraft).

You also have many other forms of Witches, such as African Witchdoctors... like the Santerian Mambo/Houngan (who also act as Priests and Priestesses for the religion of Santeria).

Shamanism is also a form of withcraft but with a different focus, using natural energies and the energy of other beings to gain power.

Magic is all of these things as well as any other form of magic use... like Ceremonial Magic where one does not necessarily use herbs and the like, but more the power of words and evocations... and symbols...etc,.
I hope that kind of answers your question :)

Namaste

Tobias

[Xentor]

Magic is doing things deemed impossible. (Unlike stage or entertainment magic, which is appearing to do things deemed impossible, or appearing to do magic.)

Witchcraft is the craft of witches. One of those crafts is medicine / herbalism. Modern medicine steered clear from magic, but still continues to find cures to diseases thought deadly mere decades ago.

[Sage Rainsong]

I tend to think of magic as any ritual and/or psychic technique designed to bring about change. I see witchcraft as a specific style of magic.

[Meadhbh]

I tend to think of magic as any ritual and/or psychic technique designed to bring about change. I see witchcraft as a specific style of magic.

Thats what I was going to say. The only real difference when it comes to magic is how you choose to use it. When enough people start doing it that way it comes into its own as a style.

[Rick]

Hi everyone! Could anyone explain the difference between magic and witchcraft?

:smile: Not all practioners of magic are witches...

[hikarilove]

I don't even see a difference anymore.

You can call it "steaming broccoli" if you want... as long as it works! ;)

[BlueMoon13]

....there is no such thing as the religion of Witchcraft because it is an Art.



Sorry, but in the United States, Witchcraft IS constitutionally recognized AND protected as a RELIGION.


Witchcraft is recognized in the United States as a legitimate religion. In 1985, Dettmer v Landon (617 F Supp 592) the District Court of Virginia pursuant to rule 52 (a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure ruled that Witchcraft is a legitimate religion and falls within a recognizable religious category In 1986 in the Federal Appeals court fourth circuit. Butzner, J. affirmed the decision (799 F 2d 929)

[Toby Stimpson]

Sorry, but in the United States, Witchcraft IS constitutionally recognized AND protected as a RELIGION.

Yes in the United States... but you tell me... where else?

So any kind of witchcraft is seen as a part of the religion? So a Haitian witch is a part of the Witchcraft religion?

Also, you tell me why it is a religion... its all good to say the United States recognizes it as a religion, but what exactly makes it a religion??.. as opposed to an art with many other religions being associated with it somehow

I would also be wary as to whether or not the claimants in that case were calling "Wicca" as "Witchcraft"...

[Phoenix Blue]

Magic is the tool. Witchcraft is the art.

[Phoenix Blue]

Yes in the United States... but you tell me... where else?
The United Kingdom, which repealed its laws banning witchcraft in 1951.


I would also be wary as to whether or not the claimants in that case were calling "Wicca" as "Witchcraft"...
I think Wiccans used the terms interchangably, at least until Scott Cunningham's books started to be published.

[RainInanna]

So a Haitian witch is a part of the Witchcraft religion?

There are people who call themselves Haitian Witches?

Hey I learn something new every day :hahugh:

[Toby Stimpson]

There are people who call themselves Haitian Witches?

Hey I learn something new every day :hahugh:

lol, well... that was to show that witchcraft is, as PB said an art...

what I'm getting at is that fact that witchcraft is an art that various religions have used or made apart of their traditions... but witchcraft as an ART is none religious becasue you can be a member of another religion and still practice witchcraft, like the Haitian Mambos and Houngans (priests and priestesses) who's ceremonies are witchcraft.

[Toby Stimpson]

The United Kingdom, which repealed its laws banning witchcraft in 1951.


I think Wiccans used the terms interchangably, at least until Scott Cunningham's books started to be published.

Mhm they repealed their anti-witchcraft laws... but they didn't proclaim it as a religion, they simply revoked the laws stopping anyone from being punished for being a Witch, or practicing any form of Witchcraft.

What I want to know from Bluemoon13 is where else in the world has "Witchcraft" been proclaimed a religion by a government or laws of a country.

[RainInanna]

What I want to know from Bluemoon13 is where else in the world has "Witchcraft" been proclaimed a religion by a government or laws of a country.

Hm, isn't that getting away from the point which is simply that to some Witchcraft is indeed a religion? As has been mentioned, it had been used synonymously with Wicca for quite some time. There are those who still consider Witchcraft to be their spirituality, not just their craft.

Personally I consider Witchcraft to be thaumaturgy - that is, magic focused on creating effects in the physical world such as folk magic, herbcraft, etc. Generally this is achieved because one feels the Sacred is found in the physical world, and therefore does have a basis in spiritual beliefs. While it may not be an organized religion I don't feel it's necessarily an art that can be said to be separate from spirituality.

All IMHO, YMMV, contents may settle during shipping, yada yada.

[Toby Stimpson]

Hm, isn't that getting away from the point which is simply that to some Witchcraft is indeed a religion? As has been mentioned, it had been used synonymously with Wicca for quite some time. There are those who still consider Witchcraft to be their spirituality, not just their craft.

Personally I consider Witchcraft to be thaumaturgy - that is, magic focused on creating effects in the physical world such as folk magic, herbcraft, etc. Generally this is achieved because one feels the Sacred is found in the physical world, and therefore does have a basis in spiritual beliefs. While it may not be an organized religion I don't feel it's necessarily an art that can be said to be separate from spirituality.

All IMHO, YMMV, contents may settle during shipping, yada yada.

Mhm, I definitely understand what your saying, and thats good! :)

But I think of it this way... Witchcraft isn't an organized religion no, and each individual Witch who feels something spiritual in their practice may view that spiritual Sacred as something different. if they are a part of another religion, they will ofcourse associate that Sacred feeling with their God or Goddess they associate with.

I'll give an example, classical mythology... Circe, self identified and identified in the mythology as a Witch. Now, does she share the same religion as modern Witches now?

I understand what you are saying, and I am not at all saying that Witchcraft isn't a spiritual thing...It definitly is a spiritual thing... BUT so is Yoga. And to many people Yoga is not a religion, but it's linked with Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and there are many more practitioners worldwide who are Atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Native American... etc etc.

So, the difference being that Yoga is an art, a spiritual art none the less, that just is. Same with Witchcraft... Wicca highly identifies with it, and many people use it interchangeably, but Wicca and NeoPaganism is really not interchangeable with witchcraft because there are many witches worldwide who have never heard or who are not linked or associated with Wicca or NeoPaganism at all. if that is the case... then Witchcraft cannot possibly be a single religion, therefor it must be an art... albeit a highly spiritual art. :)

[Rick]

Magic is the tool. Witchcraft is the art.
Nah, see, runes are the tools, magic is the art...

[Greybird]

Could anyone explain the difference between magic and witchcraft?

Sure. Please explain the difference between music and a singer, remembering that singing isn't the only way to make music.

[Phoenix Blue]

Nah, see, runes are the tools, magic is the art...
You have your medium, I have mine. :)

[BlueMoon13]

What I want to know from Bluemoon13 is where else in the world has "Witchcraft" been proclaimed a religion by a government or laws of a country.

I never said that the US "proclaimed" witchcraft as a religion. It is a recognized and constitutionally protected religion in the United States. Since I am a witch who practices witchcraft I guess it's fortunate for me I was born in a country which does recognize and protect my religion, even if some people don't and tell me my religion doesn't exist. I'll be sure to update all the other witches I know that our religion doesn't exist. :megaphone

To get back to the OP's question-magic is a part of witchcraft, just like a tire is part of a car. The car can start without tires, the lights can go on without tires, and so on. But if want to actually go anywhere, you need the tires.

Take a knot spell for instance. You have the ropes,thread, yarns, or whatever, and can tie the knots while reciting some nifty rhyme. You're crafting but unless you imbue the materials with your intention (here's where the magic part comes in) you're not witchcrafting.


I hope that makes sense_inabox_ :wave:

[Toby Stimpson]

I never said that the US "proclaimed" witchcraft as a religion. It is a recognized and constitutionally protected religion in the United States. Since I am a witch who practices witchcraft I guess it's fortunate for me I was born in a country which does recognize and protect my religion, even if some people don't and tell me my religion doesn't exist. I'll be sure to update all the other witches I know that our religion doesn't exist. :megaphone


Oh I didn't say Witchcraft didn't exist...I said its not a religion... because there is no one universal witchcraft religion that all Witches belong to.

[BlueMoon13]

Oh I didn't say Witchcraft didn't exist...I said its not a religion... because there is no one universal witchcraft religion that all Witches belong to.

That's like saying there is no Shintoism because not all Shintos revere the same ancestors.

Anyway, I've made my comments on the OP's question and this "witchcraft is/is not a religion" has been done to death elsewhere on the board. I know it is, other witches who believe in it as a religion do, and my country does'nt persecute me for believing so. That's enough for me.

[Myrr]

My take is that magick and witchcraft aren't religions. Their a result of being in a state achived through being introspective from meditation or other spiritual activities. Kinda like a side effect.

[novimarra]

I'm glad this thread got so many replies, so thanks again. I can't right away agree with any one opinion yet, but I appreciate what BlueMoon13 has written on the difference between magic/witchcraft, that seems to make the most sense to me.

[Vigdisdotter]

Hi everyone! Could anyone explain the difference between magic and witchcraft?

Witchcraft is a type of magic, the way German Shepard is a type of dog.

[Vigdisdotter]

I think Wiccans used the terms interchangably, at least until Scott Cunningham's books started to be published.

Where does that leave those of us who are witches but not wiccan?

[lamoka]

I think a persons path need not be validated by others..
If I believe in my path and feel the need to label it a religion to be acceptable in the eyes of others then it is so..
A persons path is as private, personal and valid to them as their dreams..
do you need another to tell you that your dreams are yours and are okay to have..
do you need the stamp of approval by any government..
to me magick is the raising of energy, directing of intention for a desired outcome..
actors, singers, performers, drummers, musicians, magicians, priests, ministers, etc. all raise energy, direct their intent for a desired outcome..
weddings, baptisms, school pep gatherings, are other ways of raising energy, directing intent to a goal for a desired outcome..
picket lines and protestors are others..
there is energy in all.. tools, accessories, instruments, are used.. i.e. incense, flowers, specific clothes, robes, colors, candles, chants, songs, words, blessings, invocations, etc...
magick is performed daily.. promises are made in prayers.. intents are sent out to the universe..
witchcraft to me uses magick like so much else.. it is just more controlled, specific, concentrated in its ways.. and not afraid to call a witch a witch..
mho
namaste

[RainInanna]

Where does that leave those of us who are witches but not wiccan?

I think that would be why most Wiccans stopped using them interchangeably.

Still they are used as if synonymous in many popular Wiccan books for that reason, so it's good to know.

[Toby Stimpson]

I think that would be why most Wiccans stopped using them interchangeably.

Still they are used as if synonymous in many popular Wiccan books for that reason, so it's good to know.

Its certainly an interesting trend that keeps happening, but I would answer your question Vigdisotter by saying that those Witches that are not Wiccan are whatever religious affiliation they are connected to, whether it be Pagan, Christian... etc,.

[demonique]

Honestly, I view 'magic' and 'witchcraft' as exchangable terms, somewhat like 'beautiful' and 'pretty' - slightly different connotations, and you may not 'beautiful' where you'd say 'pretty' all the time, but if you did, your intentions would still be clear enough.

Others may not see it that way - that's fine with me. I'm not saying I'm right, only that I've never felt the need to separate them.

[Vigdisdotter]

those Witches that are not Wiccan are whatever religious affiliation they are connected to, whether it be Pagan, Christian... etc,.

I would think that such is self-evident. However it doesn't address the obvious problem created by treating Witch and Wicca as interchangeable.

[Toby Stimpson]

I would think that such is self-evident. However it doesn't address the obvious problem created by treating Witch and Wicca as interchangeable.

I think the first order os business really is to separate the two... distinguish the two... bnut also understand the two... I mean if you are a Witch but have many Wiccan elements in your religious side... how can you be JUST a Witch... and where did those elements come from? If it is the case of just not liking the label of wiccan or if it is truly a case of just not being wiccan.

If you are a witch and none of

I definitly think it is an issue because as I said in earlier posts theres kinds of witches across the world who are not Pagan or Wiccan. Perhaps the best solution is to always fight out against it, or discuss it. Its good that we have these sites here where we can discuss such things with sooo many different types of people, but you have a good point what about the books. I only own about 10 Wicca/Witchcraft books and the majority of those are the classics by Margot Adler, Starhawk and the Farrars. I think the modern trend right now perhaps is a miscommunication...I mean one can be a Wiccan and a witch because Wicca is so imbued with Witchcraft elements.

I have seen some websites that say Wicca IS witchcraft, and like I said before witchcraft in it's self is not a religion because it ahs no common precepts of a religion shared by all witches and is more like freemasonry in that a person can be a Freemason AND whatever religion they happen to be. I mean the very word witch does not exclusively refer to or defined as a person practicing wicca or neopaganism but generally as a sorcerer... wheich there are many kinds that are unrelated worldwide.

Thats what I would say whenever I'm talking to a person who's *just* looking into Wicca, and make that point clear. But I suppose the ultimate solution would be to write our own books, with your opinions cases and if we truly;y disagree with the synchronization of Wicca and Witchcraft in language to put it out there :)

Namaste

Tobias

[LordHelmet]

Sorry, but in the United States, Witchcraft IS constitutionally recognized AND protected as a RELIGION.

Thats kind of pointless. Before you know it skateboarding will be recognized as a religion.

The US Congress is really confused about about religions and what constitutes one. This is what happens when you try to sepperate religion and state by having state define religion.

People have been trying to make Jedi and The Church of FSM religions, just by having enough people claiming it.

Besides the Scientology Corporation was also able to become a religion so they could get their tax exempt status that promotes all recognized religions as a method of separating them from state business. Oddly scientology sits right bettween Sci Fi and scam.

[Vigdisdotter]

I think the first order os business really is to separate the two... distinguish the two... bnut also understand the two... I mean if you are a Witch but have many Wiccan elements in your religious side... how can you be JUST a Witch...

Same way I can "just" a horse back rider even though I prodominately ride western, while being trained in Drassage and Hunter/Jumper. It, like Witch, is a term that covers a lot of ground. if the person would liekt o know more, they can always ask me for specifics. But if they assume becuase of the genral term, I meant a spefici thing, that is their own folly.

It is that inherent assumption that I find most counterproductive. Witches and their varied practises are found in many cultures and time periods, not just one recently (re)constructed path.

[Toby Stimpson]

Same way I can "just" a horse back rider even though I prodominately ride western, while being trained in Drassage and Hunter/Jumper. It, like Witch, is a term that covers a lot of ground. if the person would liekt o know more, they can always ask me for specifics. But if they assume becuase of the genral term, I meant a spefici thing, that is their own folly.

It is that inherent assumption that I find most counterproductive. Witches and their varied practises are found in many cultures and time periods, not just one recently (re)constructed path.

Exactlyyy :D which is why I so vehimantly disagreed with BlueMoon13's assumptions that i was saying her religion doesn't exist...when in fact I just thing she was using different terms.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

O , my friends, ready for some real fun...? I am about to really stir the Cauldron...Let's see what rises to the top....

First...It is simple , regarding the Wiccan / Witch debate...A Witch is one who perfoms the work of magick, with certain techniques, from whatever tradition...however, they are not limited to one tradition , and may have one religious belief system , many, as a composite, or no religion, at all...I know atheist Witches...They only believe in change , if
anything, and their ability to influence it...

Wicca, on the other hand , is a Religion, and those who follow it's tenets
with the same fervor as a fundamentalist, from whatever religion, are bound by certain basic laws...

Now the fun begins...I am a Arch Druid ( pre-celt ) Wietch , of the
Wieckaan People , and follow, teach, and practice/am adept in , the
Paleolithic Faery Tradition...How can I be all that ?

Well, first you must throw out all your preconcieved ideas...Now, let me explain...

1. In the Olde Tradition , we did not seperate High , or Low Mgieck ;
( Old spelling )

2. Wiecka , was the Mgieck of the senses , a Wieckaan worshipped through total sensuality

3. A Wieckaan , never worshipped, a God, or Goddess...Each Wieckaan was the God / Goddess...A male : Outer God, Inner Goddess...
A female : Outer Goddess , Inner God

4. A Wietch , knew the Ways of Working...Earth, and Star Mgieck...
Parallel Dimensions , and Midwifery...Herbs, and Portals...

5. A Druid knew all these things , was a Oral custodian of the Lore, and
Ancient Language Codes , and Pillar of the Community , the Lawgiver, of the People

So, can I be all , ( still in process, this lifetime, in some of it ) of these
things, without conflict...? Most assuredly so... !

I hope that helped, and did not lead to further confusion...Blessings...

[Toby Stimpson]

O , my friends, ready for some real fun...? I am about to really stir the Cauldron...Let's see what rises to the top....

First...It is simple , regarding the Wiccan / Witch debate...A Witch is one who perfoms the work of magick, with certain techniques, from whatever tradition...however, they are not limited to one tradition , and may have one religious belief system , many, as a composite, or no religion, at all...I know atheist Witches...They only believe in change , if
anything, and their ability to influence it...

Wicca, on the other hand , is a Religion, and those who follow it's tenets
with the same fervor as a fundamentalist, from whatever religion, are bound by certain basic laws...

Now the fun begins...I am a Arch Druid ( pre-celt ) Wietch , of the
Wieckaan People , and follow, teach, and practice/am adept in , the
Paleolithic Faery Tradition...How can I be all that ?

Well, first you must throw out all your preconcieved ideas...Now, let me explain...

1. In the Olde Tradition , we did not seperate High , or Low Mgieck ;
( Old spelling )

2. Wiecka , was the Mgieck of the senses , a Wieckaan worshipped through total sensuality

3. A Wieckaan , never worshipped, a God, or Goddess...Each Wieckaan was the God / Goddess...A male : Outer God, Inner Goddess...
A female : Outer Goddess , Inner God

4. A Wietch , knew the Ways of Working...Earth, and Star Mgieck...
Parallel Dimensions , and Midwifery...Herbs, and Portals...

5. A Druid knew all these things , was a Oral custodian of the Lore, and
Ancient Language Codes , and Pillar of the Community , the Lawgiver, of the People

So, can I be all , ( still in process, this lifetime, in some of it ) of these
things, without conflict...? Most assuredly so... !

I hope that helped, and did not lead to further confusion...Blessings...

I fail to see how writing in bolded garamond and saying a few things about your path speaks to the points about witchcraft vs. wiccan... and the difference between witchcraft and magic...but OK you can stir that pot all the way if you'd like :). I do agree with your first points... which are similar to what has already been said. I'd be interested in hearing more of your path though...as already I am somewhat critical of some of the claims you make. If you'd like, Id be interested in hearing more... perhaps clear up my criticism.

Namaste

Tobias

[Vigdisdotter]

Exactlyyy :D which is why I so vehimantly disagreed with BlueMoon13's assumptions that i was saying her religion doesn't exist...when in fact I just thing she was using different terms.

Okay, I feel like I've missed something here ^_^;;;

[Toby Stimpson]

Okay, I feel like I've missed something here ^_^;;;

LOL look back a few pages :)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Well , Tobias, thank you for answering...And I happen to love the look of bold Garamond...Very beautiful...But shall we try Italic , if it will help...The letters are too skinny for my taste, in regular script...So hopefully, this will not bring more criticism...Let's focus on the matter at hand...I did not have a chance to read anything but the first page, and it seemed Erin, was trying to state she could be both, Wiccan, and Witch...which is exactly what I stated someone could be, by offering confirmation of my tradition...So, what exactly, do you have a problem with, other than my typeface...Pre-celt Druid ?
Or that a tradition might define things differently than you might choose to believe...? Not all traditions live by narrow boundaries...

As I Lovingly said...Blessings

[Vigdisdotter]

it seemed Erin, was trying to state she could be both, Wiccan, and Witch...

Could be, but I myself am not. And I find it a bit vexing when I identify as a Witch only ot have the person say "oh, you're Wiccan" since I am no such thing. It boils done to a case of assumption and misrepresentation.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Understood, Erin...thank you for clarifying...I, myself, hope you do not think, I was pigeonholing you...I allow very large boundaries for peoples practices, and traditions, in general...

[Vigdisdotter]

Understood, Erin...thank you for clarifying...I, myself, hope you do not think, I was pigeonholing you...I allow very large boundaries for peoples practices, and traditions, in general...

I don't take anything personally on line :) saves da poor old blood pressure.

But I am a lover of language and detest seeing is misused, especially in print media. I have thrown many a book across the room when my annoyance got the better of me ~_^

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I , for one, can appreciate that...better the book ( poor book ) than the person...However, I deal with misguided attempts at categorizations , continually, regarding the tradition I am of and follow , since it has all but vanished... And mistaken ideas, have taken it's place...What, if I may ask, ( VERY politely ) is your path ?

[Toby Stimpson]

So, what exactly, do you have a problem with, other than my typeface...Pre-celt Druid ?

Or that a tradition might define things differently than you might choose to believe...? Not all traditions live by narrow boundaries...

I have no problems...as I said I am critical... criticism is not having a problem, it is merely being critical of something.

I am simply inviting you to put a little more information about your path as I have never heard of any order of Druids or paths of Wicca...or a form of Witchcraft using such words as Wieckaan , Wietch , or even a path called Paleolithic Faery Tradition... as I have never heard in all my time of these things, I am always critical of people who claim to be or are from paths which use old fashion words. So I am inviting you, as this is a thread about terms, to elaborate more... and to perhaps eleviate my criticisms :).

As for your last comment... you do not know what I believe as this is out first exchange, and what constitutes a boundary is very subjective.

[Vigdisdotter]

I , for one, can appreciate that...better the book ( poor book ) than the person...However, I deal with misguided attempts at categorizations , continually, regarding the tradition I am of and follow , since it has all but vanished... And mistaken ideas, have taken it's place...What, if I may ask, ( VERY politely ) is your path ?

Categorization is useful :) But no one said everyone would categorize the same.

As for me, I start of Wiccan some 13 years ago but left to try and find a better personal fit which has lead me to basically crafting my own path. I self identify as a Modern Constructionist Germanic Heathen with Shamanic Tendencies <GRINS>

A very descriptive term.....IF you knwo what the words mean. And if one doesn't they hopefully ask, thus starting a discussion of ideas :)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Thank You, Erin...yes, I do have a pretty good idea, of what you are saying...Are you familiar, with Freya Aswynn ...or, even accept, any of her ideas...Or, are you a shamanic pre-Odinist...? or, something, even further...?


My hopeful friend , Tobias...No, I do not know your tradition, you do not know mine...but review your words...you were not inquisitive, you were critical...there is a large difference...I, for one, will throw that sort of attitude back in someone's face, for them to look at... then have discourse with them, if they are a strong, AND loving enough person...Now since you asked better this time...My tradition, since you are the Eastern Forum " Moderator " ? ( is that correct ? )
You might know , from the Eastern Perspective , works with the Naga Language...however, many names, many cultures , one underlying Tradition...We are Androgynous Serpents...We are the ones, the Vedas speak of the Vimana Vehicles destroying...but we are still here... some of us...The Dravidian, the Shivite, the Vedas...
young, to us...We are the Olde Ones...The Otherworld Kin...Does that help ?

[Vigdisdotter]

Thank You, Erin...yes, I do have a pretty good idea, of what you are saying...Are you familiar, with Freya Aswynn ...or, even accept, any of her ideas...
I am and I do.....though not everything. I did like her application of psychology to the runes :) But she is one of those writers where she's not to everyone's taste, which is fine.

Or, are you a shamanic pre-Odinist...? or, something, even further...?
The other direction :) I'm a Modernist, beaning that my belief and practises are the product of the time and place I live in. While some of the beliefs and techniques are quite ancient, how I've put it together and apply it is decidedly modern.

Also I'm oathed to Freyja. Odin only pops in occasionally.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

We can talk about the validity of this, another time, Erin...But I work With The 29 Runes, of Freya/Frejya...She is my protectress, and Shield Maiden...She Claimed me, as a consort, 12 years, ago...I , if you note my name...Am known under a different name...Fenris...Her
protector wolf, who was given a bad name, after the battle, long ago...But, that is the northern perspective...

[Vigdisdotter]

We can talk about the validity of this, another time, Erin...But I work With The 29 Runes, of Freya/Frejya...She is my protectress, and Shield Maiden...She Claimed me, as a consort, 12 years, ago...I , if you note my name...Am known under a different name...Fenris...Her
protector wolf, who was given a bad name, after the battle, long ago...But, that is the northern perspective...

All the rest aside......29 runes? Which Futhark are you using?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Thank you, for asking...As I say, there have been many missed understandings...The Runes, are more ancient, than anyone who knows, has spoken of...The Runes, you know of as Uruz, and Sowulo,
We of Olde, know as Ur, and Seal...Fit them together, they make the shape of the Dipper, 1,000,000 yrs ago...( Carl Sagan: Cosmos : pg 197 ) pronounced, in the Olde Tongue, Ur-Seal...or Ursala...What you
call Futhark, We know as Futharko...With 8 symbols, a seperate "T" ,
and "H"...( PM me )

[Phoenix Blue]

Really? What culture are they from? Who had a written language 1 million years ago upon which runes could be based? Because that kind of age predates even Chinese and Mesopotamian civilizations; for that matter, we as a species hadn't even figured out farming yet.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Phoenix Blue , Hello...Yes...To get this back to the thread subject... Let me just say that, and that civilizations, come, and go, in waves;
And we can not base the validity of a culture, upon modern interpretations , ideas, or ideals...If you, or anyone has further questions, please, PM me...I will do my best to answer polite inquiry...And I will be offering classes...Thread subject, please...

[Phoenix Blue]

Let me just say that, and that civilizations, come, and go, in waves;
Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Do you have concrete evidence to prove your assertion of a civilization that existed 1 million years ago? Because I imagine that would rock the world of paleontologists and archaeologists from here to Zanzibar.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Do you have concrete evidence to prove your assertion of a civilization that existed 1 million years ago? Because I imagine that would rock the world of paleontologists and archaeologists from here to Zanzibar.

Well, Phoenix Blue...Sorry that you feel that way...As I said though, in respect to this thread...which I never wanted to go off subject...PM me ,
respectfully , and I will be happy to discuss this with you, up to a point...

This thread, is on mgieck/magick and witchcraft, not the validity of my mgieckal tradition...there just may come a thread, for that...

Please...Back to the thread...And do check out, what I said, about the Rune shapes, if you are interested...Thread Subject...

[Vigdisdotter]

Thank you, for asking...As I say, there have been many missed understandings...The Runes, are more ancient, than anyone who knows, has spoken of...The Runes, you know of as Uruz, and Sowulo,
We of Olde, know as Ur, and Seal...Fit them together, they make the shape of the Dipper, 1,000,000 yrs ago...( Carl Sagan: Cosmos : pg 197 ) pronounced, in the Olde Tongue, Ur-Seal...or Ursala...What you
call Futhark, We know as Futharko...With 8 symbols, a seperate "T" ,
and "H"...( PM me )

You know, personal gnosis is great and all, but when you make claims stated as fact, you then have placed the burden of proof on yourself. Right now you're at the point where I sit back and say, "show me the money." The ball is in your court.

[Toby Stimpson]

Well, Phoenix Blue...Sorry that you feel that way...As I said though, in respect to this thread...which I never wanted to go off subject...PM me ,
respectfully , and I will be happy to discuss this with you, up to a point...

This thread, is on mgieck/magick and witchcraft, not the validity of my mgieckal tradition...there just may come a thread, for that...

Please...Back to the thread...And do check out, what I said, about the Rune shapes, if you are interested...Thread Subject...

This thread is all about terms, not just magic and witchcraft. Although you say you did not intend, you have said many things as fact, as Vigdisdotter has said, which seem to go against history. I know I would be more than willing to see such proof or atleast some more, but withholding it doesnt really help your credibility.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I will lovingly state this, because that is who I am...A loving person...
I ask all of you hear my " terms "...and thank you, for doing so...I pm'ed you Tobias , regarding my offer of a year, and a day, of classes...that, is the only way , someone can begin, to see the immensity of what I am discussing here...I asked you to go to my
" Icebreakers " intro , to get an idea, of what I know...And lovingly
offer, to those truly desiring to learn...The Olde Tradition training , was a minimum of twelve years, and was the Two-Tongued , or
Forked Tongue Tradition , of the Two ORAL Traditions...Please hear what I just said there...Oral...Mouth to Ear...I am offering , to do my best , in a year, and a day, to explain it...over the net...and I am a one fingered typist on dial up...Personally...I think that is a pretty nice offer...I came, as a friend, both to this site, and thread...And if
anyone truly wishes to learn what I know, I will do my best...But, if/when I teach/share the information, it cannot be under a barrage of attack...students would have to just learn the Tradition , then make their own judgements, AFTER, a year, and a day...If that is not acceptable...So be it...With all respect, for all...Thank you for your challenges...I have made my offer, and set my terms...Blessings...
( I am now departing this thread, with love...Let it be so...PM me...)

[Vigdisdotter]

my offer of a year, and a day, of classes...that, is the only way , someone can begin, to see the immensity of what I am discussing here

I sure hope you aren't serious. If you have such world shattering knowledge and proof of said knowledge then I would certainly expect you to be seeking out the appropriate fields/authorities to authenticate it and thus present it to the world at large. Anything is is, unfortunately, grandstanding.

What you are claiming, it not spiritual truth or personal gnosis, but fact. And Fact is held to a very stringent standard for good reason.

If you can't or won't provide the evidence to back up your claims then at the very least, rethink your phrasing and stop presenting your claims as something that they are not. As I said before, misrepresentation of things annoys me.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Erin...Everyone...This is my last post here...I am serious about the code, and Language...And one has to start somewhere...I seek support, in what is an incredibly difficult task...
A Native American Elder, said to me " I sure don't envy you...you're going to try to teach this ? " He and I spent a day together, discussing the Olde Way, and the , as he put it..." The Language of the Spirets "...I am giving
three talks, at Ancient Ways Festival this month...and, if anyone, would ( and I do not mean just here ) stop arguing about the Code, the Language, and with an open mind, sit down, and do all the work I have...They would begin to see the pattern, and be blown away...I have a number of previous students, who saw, and have gone on to use it in their lives...I am leaving the thread...If any of you would like to help me get the information out, I would be Eternally Grateful...PM me...Blessings...Bye...

[Vigdisdotter]

I seek support, in what is an incredibly difficult task...

You are wanting us to give something without giving anything back. If you knew anything of Freyja or the Heathen tradition, you'd know why the idea is repugnant.


stop arguing about the Code, the Language, and with an open mind, sit down, and do all the work I have...

That's what you're missing. These are YOUR claims. Not mine. You're the one the claims to have done this "work" and learned these things, yet when called on it you retreat behind the age old mystic teacher rhetoric.

It has nothing to do with anyone being open minded or not. Nor with any being loving or not. You claims facts and then failed to support them. You were called to support them and again failed to do so. Lack of proof is lack of proof not matter how you look at it.

[Phoenix Blue]

That's what you're missing. These are YOUR claims. Not mine. You're the one the claims to have done this "work" and learned these things ...
What she said.

I have an open mind, but not so open my brain's going to fall out. I have the ability to discern fact from fiction from faith ... and when someone presents one as another, I reserve the right to say, "Umm, no." Being Pagan doesn't make me P.T. Barnum's "sucker born every minute."

[Garm]

To the topic at hand

Time was way back when

The church was so opposed to pagan indigenous practices that the use of Mediteranian based Judeo-Christian Cabbala friendly occult traditions was actually considered a step up. This was the reason that monks compiled grimoires, so they could provide alternatives to compete with the local trads. Eventually the imported stuff came to be called Magic and the local practices were called witchcraft

This was all a long time ago

Not terribly relevant any more

[Toby Stimpson]

To the topic at hand

Time was way back when

The church was so opposed to pagan indigenous practices that the use of Mediteranian based Judeo-Christian Cabbala friendly occult traditions was actually considered a step up. This was the reason that monks compiled grimoires, so they could provide alternatives to compete with the local trads. Eventually the imported stuff came to be called Magic and the local practices were called witchcraft

This was all a long time ago

Not terribly relevant any more

Thats an interesting perspective! Actually it makes a lot of sense really, as what we would call Ceremonial magic now has a lot of influence from the Qabbalistic traditions... and most grimoires do have a lot of information and perspectives surrounding that. Thats something I've never really thought of but it clicked for me. Thanks :D... thats cool.

[coeur]

I think the term 'witchcraft' evokes feminine connotations as opposed to the masculine, 'magic.' This may be because of the West's history of persecuting more women as 'witches' than 'men,' but it also brings to attention the feminine focus common to witchcraft traditions. Many of the modern witchcraft-based religions--Wicca, Stregheria, etc.--focus on the importance of female goddesses or prophets who teach men practical wisdom. These teachings are usually related to agriculture, communal living, family, love, friends, and physical wealth (houses, land, money, etc; does not include invested wealth like stocks, etc).

Witchcraft traditions have focused on the pragmatic application of magic to solve common problems: harvests, illnesses, protection from bad luck, etc. In this way, witchcraft is more closely related to the physical world and mundane matters. In addition, witchcraft also tends to have a more traditional/generational undertone than magic: the passing from one generation to the next, the value of ancient knowledge, etc. It is important for those practicing witchcraft to continue to draw on knowledge gained by their agrarian forefathers; thus, much of witchcraft is nature-based.

Magic, on the other hand, is more about the workings of the Will in relation to the workings of the Universe. Anyone can practice magic so long as they are inflicting their Will on the Universe, which means that witchcraft is a subset of magic. Yet, unlike witches, those who proclaim themselves magicians are prone to individual projects, beliefs, and goals. Magicians frequently have little in common with each other and it is difficult to create stable magical organizations (HOGD, IOT, etc) as there is a greater emphasis on the individual ego and Will (as opposed to witchcraft's more communal outlook). As a result of greater emphasis on individuality, it is difficult to determine traditional loyalties. Many magicians reject all traditional knowledge and seek to forge their personal 'tradition' to follow. Chaos magicians, for example are interested in being free of all obligations pertaining to religion and tradition, and they often create highly unconventional rituals.

Magical orders are usually constructed as hierarchies based on knowledge as opposed to wisdom. This is not to say that magicians are any less wise than witches, but there is a greater emphasis on achievement as a result of work as opposed to understanding as a result of time. Magic can also deal with workings highly divorced from mundane matters; a great example being High Magic, which is preoccupied with the attainment of Enlightenment.

These are merely observations I have made and many of these observations are based off of how magicians differ from witches ideologically and behaviorally. It is a matter of interpretation, but I know for certain that witches and magicians can be very hostile toward each other. They are not of completely opposing branches of practice, but there are some interesting dissimilarities between the two.

[Rosetta Morrigan]

Witchcraft yields Magick.