Riddle of Epicuris

[SSanf]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Epicurus

That is another good one for impressing people that you are trying to pick up!

[SSanf]

I am getting very frustrated that I can't find some of this stuff in written text. I did search for the text.

It seems videos are becoming more frequently the means of communication.

If this were in text, it could more readily be studied and critiqued line by line. Too bad.

The Ethics of Hell (http://youtube.com/watch?v=T4724R6mR18&watch_response)

[Agaliha]

I'll have to read the rest of that page, pretty interesting.

[SSanf]

I'll have to read the rest of that page, pretty interesting.Some of the more philosophical stuff is pretty interesting.

It isn't generating a lot of feed back in the comments but I see there are a lot of page views. I guess, people don't have much to say about it ro much to add to it.

[Xentor]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Epicurus

That is another good one for impressing people that you are trying to pick up!

This riddle only works if the one you're trying to impress believes in a singular god that's still alive, or tries to prove that there isn't such a god.

I don't do either.

So for me the riddle is very easy to solve:

God sacrificed his spirit to bring life to the universe. So none of the questions matter anymore. Omnipotent? At some point, maybe. Able and willing? Well, we're here, aren't we? Evil? How can someone that sacrificed themselves for the benefit of the universe be evil? And why is it that we want to judge God by our puny perception of right and wrong?

[Agaliha]

Some of the questions here remind me of stuff in these pages--
Reasons for atheism:

Reasons (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_1.shtml)
Lack of evidence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_2.shtml)
God is unnecessary (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_3.shtml)
Not convincing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_4.shtml)
The problem of evil (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_5.shtml)
Science explains (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_6.shtml)
God is meaningless (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_7.shtml)
God is in the mind (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_8.shtml)
God is a social function (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_9.shtml)
God is not apparent (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/beliefs/reasons_10.shtml)I've often wondered these things about god :idea:

[Xentor]

Some of the questions here remind me of stuff in these pages--
Reasons for atheism: (...)

I've often wondered these things about god :idea:

Now try using that same reasoning on Kemeticism or Hinduism. Totally different concept of Gods.

[Agaliha]

True, these arguements don't fit every path and view of deity, but they are interesting questions of ponder. Which part are you refering to, the evil arguement or all of them?

[Shield_Wolf]

This really interesting. I watch the youtube video, loved it, thought psrts of it where funny too. Though I have noticed that when it does come down to thing like the riddle and the video it all was about a Monotheistic religion. I guess I agree when I say it doesn't really apply to other religion that believe in more then one God.

[Shanti]

I cant play now!! My kids are hounding me to go to the river for a swim. Darn.
But real quick I love your delivery Ssanf! LOL

[SSanf]

Thanks! Tell you what. Looking for stuff for this forum is becoming quite an education for me at least.

[Shanti]

What I don't get is the notion God knows everything. If that true then he knows the end of the story and all leading to then end, so why does he put people through it all, for entertainment?
He already knows who is going to hell and heaven so why bother to even create us so we can do what he knows we will.
Why not just create our souls and toss them into the correct slot!
Actually why create anything if you know everything?

Free will, I dont think so. He knows what we are going to do before he creates us so he creates a person he knows is going to choose bad and go to hell, so where is the free will, its sounds more like pre-planning. Its not like your going to change anything because he would know that too before he even created you.

He must be really bored.

I am so glad I manifested me!!!
I know for a fact that I did it for entertainment!!
My spirit was truly bored. :)

[Xentor]

What I don't get is the notion God knows everything. If that true then he knows the end of the story and all leading to then end, so why does he put people through it all, for entertainment?

That kind of thinking shows that your notion of God is very close to the Christian one. If you'd be non- or even a-theistic and still look for arguments to contradict the Christian God, I'd consider that a sign of a spirituality that could use a bit more confidence and maturing.

In my personal path, God created a universe because it's his goal, just like us humans have our own goal in life. And yes, to us it may seem that entertainment is a good reason to create change: paradise might just turn out to be extremely boring after an eternity.

Why don't the local deities live our lives? Probably because we're better equipped for the job.



He already knows who is going to hell and heaven so why bother to even create us so we can do what he knows we will.
Why not just create our souls and toss them into the correct slot!
Actually why create anything if you know everything?

My path has an answer to that too: God might not have chosen to create us the way we are now. He might not even have realised that we would pop up. We believe that God only made a blueprint, and God gave it life. Our existence could be nothing more than chaotic coincidence.

That also answers the issue of free will, but with a twist: we believe that it's us ourselves choosing how we live our lives, both before we incarnate and during life itself. If we are no more than chaotic coincidence, God would also not have given us free will. Or any other kind of will, for that matter.


I am so glad I manifested me!!!
I know for a fact that I did it for entertainment!!
My spirit was truly bored. :)

That's the spirit!

[Shanti]

That kind of thinking shows that your notion of God is very close to the Christian one. If you'd be non- or even a-theistic and still look for arguments to contradict the Christian God, I'd consider that a sign of a spirituality that could use a bit more confidence and maturing.

In my personal path, God created a universe because it's his goal, just like us humans have our own goal in life. And yes, to us it may seem that entertainment is a good reason to create change: paradise might just turn out to be extremely boring after an eternity.

Why don't the local deities live our lives? Probably because we're better equipped for the job.




My path has an answer to that too: God might not have chosen to create us the way we are now. He might not even have realised that we would pop up. We believe that God only made a blueprint, and God gave it life. Our existence could be nothing more than chaotic coincidence.

That also answers the issue of free will, but with a twist: we believe that it's us ourselves choosing how we live our lives, both before we incarnate and during life itself. If we are no more than chaotic coincidence, God would also not have given us free will. Or any other kind of will, for that matter.



That's the spirit!
Oops sorry, perhaps some clarity. I was commenting on what I was told during my 9 yrs of parochial school!! Yuk!
We were taught god is all knowing, all giving, all powerful, all loving and a bunch of other entertaining ideals. :)

I still love the question: 'If gods so great can he make a rock so big that even he cant move it?' LOL

Religion class everyday from 1st grade through 9th was...:zzzzZZZ::rotfl::awilly::geez:_inabox_:ack::foh::whatgives:crazylaug:smoke:

[Fairy_Princess]

The gods I study don't know everything, they aren't everywhere, they aren't all powerful and they *gasp* aren't perfect, they make mistakes.

[Rippy]

Evil? How can someone that sacrificed themselves for the benefit of the universe be evil?

When a suicidal terrorist crashes a plane into the twin towers, driven by his ideals for religious purpose, does that make him holy?

[Fairy_Princess]

When a suicidal terrorist crashes a plane into the twin towers, driven by his ideals for religious purpose, does that make him holy?

It makes him extra crispy.... holey would require him being driven into a swiss cheese factory for his deity.

[Xentor]

When a suicidal terrorist crashes a plane into the twin towers, driven by his ideals for religious purpose, does that make him holy?
That depends on one's view-point, doesn't it?

[plumedsnake]

[QUOTE=Shanti;3144134]

I still love the question: 'If gods so great can he make a rock so big that even he cant move it?' LOL
QUOTE]

Thing is that any definition of what God is and what he can do etc involves reducing god to a concept of human thought. Since human thoughts and the false premises we base these thoughts on often lead to paradox, it follows that our Conceptual God, or gods, will be paradoxical. The idea of greatness or smallness, power or impotence, goodness or evil, are human thinking categories. we think in dichotomies and weigh and value things accordingly and so a God we conceptualise will have to fit onto the scales.

But isn't this just a form of idolatry. An idol being an object constructed by man and then worshipped by him. It doesn't matter if the idol is made of Stone, wood, metal, or concepts. It's a human construct which makes it's worship idolatry. And the idolatry is rendered dangerous and unhelpful when far from being an aid in worship it gets in the way of making true contact with the divine.

Ineffability has got to count for something, don't you think?

[Shanti]

[quote=Shanti;3144134]

I still love the question: 'If gods so great can he make a rock so big that even he cant move it?' LOL
QUOTE]

Thing is that any definition of what God is and what he can do etc involves reducing god to a concept of human thought. Since human thoughts and the false premises we base these thoughts on often lead to paradox, it follows that our Conceptual God, or gods, will be paradoxical. The idea of greatness or smallness, power or impotence, goodness or evil, are human thinking categories. we think in dichotomies and weigh and value things accordingly and so a God we conceptualise will have to fit onto the scales.

But isn't this just a form of idolatry. An idol being an object constructed by man and then worshipped by him. It doesn't matter if the idol is made of Stone, wood, metal, or concepts. It's a human construct which makes it's worship idolatry. And the idolatry is rendered dangerous and unhelpful when far from being an aid in worship it gets in the way of making true contact with the divine.

Ineffability has got to count for something, don't you think?
The rock thing is a joke from religion class in grade school.
As to your final question, it all depends on individual perspective.

[Xentor]

The rock thing may just be one of the most baffling riddles for those with a staunch belief in an all-powerful god.

[plumedsnake]

[quote=plumedsnake;3153788]
The rock thing is a joke from religion class in grade school.



Many a true point has been made in jest.