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~Elise~
July 4th, 2007, 09:49 AM
This could result in a heated discussion (although in the past classes it has not)--please keep things civil. Remember our rule - RESPECT

Black Magic--does it exist?

This is my point of view on things.
The definition I give my IRL students is that magic is the ability to change reality at will. Magic is like electricity. It is universal energy out there waiting to be tapped into. There is not white or black electric--there is no white or black magic. white and black magic get into having a value assigned to them. WE, as society, place that value.

This is just an excerpt from a very long article, That Old Black Magic, by Judy Harrow:

Saying "black" when we mean "evil" is nasty nonsense. In the first place, it reinforces the racist stereotypes that corrupt our society. And that's not all. Whenever we say "black" instead of "bad," we repeat again the big lie that darkness is wrong. It isn't, as people who profess to love Nature should know. Darkness can mean the inside of the womb, and the seed germinating within the Earth, and the chaos that gives rise to all truly new beginnings. In our myths, the one who goes down to the underworld returns with the treasure. Even death, to the pagan understanding, is well-earned rest and comfort, and a preparation for new birth. Using "black" to mean "bad" is a blasphemy against the Crone.

But even if we no longer speak of magic as "black" or "white," we still need to think and speak about the ethics of magic. Although black is not evil, some actions are evil. It simply is not true that anything a person is strong enough or skilled enough to do is OK, nor should doing what we will ever be the whole of the law for us. We need a clear and specific vocabulary that enables us to choose wisely what we will do.

We need to replace the word "black," not simply to drop it. Some Pagans have tried using "negative" as their substitute, but that turned out to be confusing. For some people, "negative" means any spell to diminish or banish anything. Some things - tumors, depression, bigotry - are harmful. There's nothing wrong with a working to get rid of bad stuff. "Left-handed" is another common term for wrongful practice, very traditional, but just as ignorant, superstitious and potentially harmful as the phrase "black magic" itself. So in Proteus we tried using the word "unethical." That's a lot better - free of extraneous and false implications - but still too vague. Gradually, I began to wonder whether using any one word, "black" or "unethical" or whatever, might just be too general and too subjective.

If ethical principles are going to survive the twin tests of time and temptation, people need to understand just what to avoid, and why. Even more important, they need a basis for figuring out what to do instead. Especially when it comes to projective magic.
Projective magic means active workings, the kind in which we project our will out into the world to make some kind of change. This is what most people think of when they use the word magic at all. Quite clearly, magic that may affect other people is magic that can harm. This is the basis of the proverb "a Witch who can't hex can't heal." Either you can raise and direct power, or you can't. Your strength and skill can be used for blessing or for bane. The choice - and the karma - are yours.

Just as some people feel that strength and skill are their own justification, others feel that any projective magic is always wrong - that it is a distraction from our one true goal of union with the Divine or a willful avoidance of the judgements of Karma. I think these attitudes are equally inconsistent with basic pagan philosophy.

We are taught that we will find the Lady within ourselves or not at all, that the Mother of All has been with us from the beginning. We can't now establish a union that was always there. All we can do, all we need to do, is become aware. Knowing what it feels like to heal and empower, again and again till you can't dismiss it as coincidence, is one of the most powerful methods for awakening that awareness. It makes no sense to say that the direct experience and exercise of our indwelling divinity distracts from the Great Work. Indeed, it is this intimate connection between our magic and our self-realization that our ethics protect. Wrongful use of magic will choke the channel. No short term gain could ever compensate for that.

The karmic argument against practical workings seems to me to arise from a paranoid and defeatist world view. Even if we assume that the hardships in this life were put there by the Gods for a reason, how can we be so sure that the reason was punishment? Perhaps instead of penance to be endured, our difficulties are challenges to be met. Coping and dealing with our problems, learning magical and mundane skills, changing ourselves and our world for the better - in short, growing up - is that not what the Gods of joy and freedom want from us?

One of the most radically different things about a polytheistic belief system is that each one of us has the right, and the need, to choose which God/desses will be the focus of our worship. We make these choices knowing that whatever energies we invoke most often in ritual will shape our own further growth. Spiritual practices are a means of self-programming. So we are responsible for what we worship in a way that people who take their One God as a given are not.

Think about this: what kind of Power actively wants us to submit and suffer, and objects when we develop skills to improve our own lives? Not a Being I'd want to invite around too often!

So it will not work for us to rule out projective magic completely; nor should we. Total prohibitions are as thoughtless as total permissiveness or blind obedience. Ethical and spiritual adults ought to be able to make distinctions and well-reasoned choices. I offer here a start toward analysing what kinds of magic are not ethical for us.

Black magic is magic done for the explicit purpose of causing harm to another person. Usually the reason for it is revenge, and the rationalization is justice. People who defend the practice of baneful magic often ask "but wouldn't you join in cursing another Hitler?"

For adults there is no rule without exceptions. If you think you would never torture somebody, consider this scenario: in just half an hour the bomb will go off, killing everybody in the city, and this terrorist knows where it is hidden.... It's a bad mistake to base your ethics on wildly unlikely cases, since none of us honestly knows how we would react in that kind of extreme. Reasonable ethical statements are statements about the behaviors we expect of ourselves under normally predictable circumstances.

We all get really angry on occasion, and sometimes with good cause. Then revenge can seem like no more than simple justice. The anger is a normal, healthy human reaction, and should not be repressed. But there's no more need to act it out in magic than in physical violence. Instead of going for revenge - and invoking the karmic consequences of baneful magic - identify what you really need. For example, if your anger comes from a feeling that you have been attacked or violated, what you need is protection and safe space. Work for the positive goal, it's both more effective and safer.

But not every other magician is ethical. Psychic attacks do happen. Should we not defend ourselves? Of course we should. Leaving ourselves open to psychic attack is no good example of the autonomy and assertiveness our chosen Gods expect. But first, how can we be sure what we are experiencing really is psychic attack?

The fantasy of psychic attack is often a convenient excuse that allows us to avoid looking at our own shortcomings. When lack of rest or improper nutrition is the cause of illness, or a project isn't completed on time because of distraction, it's a real temptation to put the blame outside ourselves. Doing this too easily betrays our autonomy just as badly as meek submission to attack does. Then, to compound matters, projected blame becomes an excuse for unjust revenge -- and that is baneful magic without excuse.

Once in a rare while, some fool really does try to throw a whammy. It's hard to predict when you might be targeted. Passive shields are always a good idea. Like a mirror, these are totally inactive until somebody sends unwelcome energy. Then a shield will protect you completely and bounce back whatever is being thrown. You may not even know consciously when your shield is working, but the result is perfect justice. Perfect justice; elegant and efficient. You won't hurt anybody out of paranoia or by mistake. And perfect protection, even though we do not have perfect knowledge.

So, baneful magic, besides being painful in the short run and crippling in the long run, is never necessary. There are better ways of self protection, and retribution is the business of the Gods.

Coercive magic is magic that targets another person to make them give us something we want or need. When most people think of the "Magic Power of Witchcraft," this is what they have in mind.

The spell to make the teacher give you a good grade, or the supervisor give you a good evaluation, the spell to make the personnel officer or renting agent choose you, the spell to attract that cute guy, all are examples of coercive magic.

So, what's wrong with high grades, a good job, a raise, a nice apartment and a sexy lover? There's nothing at all wrong with those goals. An it harm none, do what ye will. As long as nobody is hurt, go for it! But don't strive toward good ends by coercive means.

Are you beginning to think that magic is useless? Did I just rule out all the good stuff: love charms, job magic, spells for good grades? Not at all. It is not only ethical but good for you to do lots of magic to improve your own life. Whenever it works you will get more than you asked for - because along with whatever you asked for comes one more experience of your own effectiveness, your power-from-within.

Work on yourself and your own needs and desires without targeting other people. Then feel free! Ask for what you want. Visualize it and raise power for it and act in accordance on the material plane. "I need a caring and horny lover with a good sense of humor." "I want an affordable apartment near where my coven meets with a tree outside my window." "I need to be at my best when I take that exam next week." Fulfill your dreams, and sometimes let the Gods surprise you with gifts beyond your dreams.


So, what do y'all think? Let the discussion ensue....

Elise

LIGV
July 4th, 2007, 11:52 AM
Hi all... Happy 4th of july.

Id like to say that I totally agree with Elise in this manner. To me theres not blakc or white magic, or bad words for that matter. What sets the tone and meaning for messege or spell, it's the intention behind it. They say that you can't love somebody else till you love your own self. So it makes total sense that instead of targetting and manipulating the world around you to adjust to your wishes, one should work in improving from the inside out. Once that is done, it'll translate to the rest of the aspects of your life and in turn reach the wanted outcome. Not really by manipulation but by inspiraton, like a rock thrown in a bucket and creates ripples.

In the same manner helping other's can be achieve by teaching them to help themselves.

In conclussion, to me there's no unethical magic, just unethical magicians ;)

Shawn Blackwolf
July 4th, 2007, 01:29 PM
While I can understand where the author , and Elise ,
might be coming from ...

I must disagree , on certain things here...

Rather...I choose to disagree , better said...

1. In my tradition , White Mgieck involves working
with visible fields of energy...

Black Mgieck , invisible fields of energy...

( although , in the mirror universe , those terms
are reversed...)

Ie : White Mgieck , deals with physical manifestation
mgieck of whatever form...in the realm of matter ,
grounded in the material plane...

Ie : Black Mgieck , deals with subtle energies...
Such as Cho - ku ray ( chakra ) work , Astral
Traveling , Pathworking our eleven dimensional tree ,
Astral Temple Creation...etc.

I do not see through the lens being described , as the
negative / positive attributions , to the words , black
and white , on a social , or magickal level...

And of course , there is Gray , and Full Spectrum Mgieck...

2. I do not worship Gods...Nor leave anything up to them ,
unless I choose to...Sometimes , I will go up against their Will...
And either succeed , or not...If I am the Lord of the Universe
which is mine , the individual creation of my Love and Will...
Then IF the occasion arises , " Retribution is mine , sayeth
the Lord..."

The Goddess wants a God to stand on his own two feet , not
kneel before any other Gods...So I do , and so I shall...

With her at my side , I rule my own Universe...Here , and
Otherworlds...

And I shall deal with meddlers in my universe , by my Choice
and Will...With Love at the core of my actions , and my Law ,
of " Highest Good For All"...

3. The work of the self , is to know the Self , I am...
As I realize , on all levels , more of the God , I am ,
I become that , until all that is left , is MY SELF...

And I declare my Will , and express my Love ,
sometimes Tough Love , in the Universe I have created...

This is what I teach my students...They are living in the
kindergarten of the Gods...

Blessings...If clarifications are needed Elise , please let me know...

acdb
July 4th, 2007, 01:40 PM
Hmm; this subject is interesting.

It weighs up the valid differences between the magic being unethical and the magician being unethical.

I take a third view on this, and believe that both the magic and the magician are neither ethical nor unethical. This is because, in my humble opinion, ethics (as well as their close cousins, morals) are merely series of chemical reactions programmed into our brains by our culture, upbringing and environment. Taking this conclusion to the issue of ethical and unethical magic, means that it is impossible to say that one action is purely ethical or purely unethical. One may say that, to use a crude example, to cast a hex with the express idea of causing the death of someone is unethical. However, this may have been seen as a very ethical action by the caster.

Using this line of reasoning; is it therefore logical to say that there is an appearance of black/negative/unethical magic and magicians, just as there is an appearance of white/positive/ethical magic and magicians, albeit it only appears that way to you.

Cheers,
Alexander

~Elise~
July 4th, 2007, 02:02 PM
1. In my tradition , White Mgieck involves working
with visible fields of energy...

Black Mgieck , invisible fields of energy...

( although , in the mirror universe , those terms
are reversed...)

Ie : White Mgieck , deals with physical manifestation
mgieck of whatever form...in the realm of matter ,
grounded in the material plane...

Ie : Black Mgieck , deals with subtle energies...
Such as Cho - ku ray ( chakra ) work , Astral
Traveling , Pathworking our eleven dimensional tree ,
Astral Temple Creation...etc.


snip...

Interesting semantics on black and white magic...
Doesn't fit with MY worldview--but it ain't my world.

Elise

~Elise~
July 4th, 2007, 02:04 PM
In the same manner helping other's can be achieve by teaching them to help themselves.

;)

Yeah--it's a shame some people don't WANT to help themselves.

It's more comfortable to wallow where they are. Makes me sad...

Elise

~Elise~
July 4th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Hmm; this subject is interesting.

It weighs up the valid differences between the magic being unethical and the magician being unethical.

I take a third view on this, and believe that both the magic and the magician are neither ethical nor unethical. This is because, in my humble opinion, ethics (as well as their close cousins, morals) are merely series of chemical reactions programmed into our brains by our culture, upbringing and environment. Taking this conclusion to the issue of ethical and unethical magic, means that it is impossible to say that one action is purely ethical or purely unethical. One may say that, to use a crude example, to cast a hex with the express idea of causing the death of someone is unethical. However, this may have been seen as a very ethical action by the caster.

Using this line of reasoning; is it therefore logical to say that there is an appearance of black/negative/unethical magic and magicians, just as there is an appearance of white/positive/ethical magic and magicians, albeit it only appears that way to you.

Cheers,
Alexander

Yup--who knows what evil --or not -- lurks in the heart of the practioner???

I ain't The Shadow.

Elise

Shawn Blackwolf
July 4th, 2007, 02:12 PM
Interesting semantics on black and white magic...
Doesn't fit with MY worldview--but it ain't my world.

Elise

Great Response , Elise...lol...:cheers:

Fairy_Princess
July 4th, 2007, 02:22 PM
There is no such thing as _____ magic. Magic is magic, just as a gun is a gun.

IF by black magic you mean evil magic: There is no evil magic, only evil (and even then evil is all about perspective) people.

As this is a self defense class/forum I certainly can see the wisdom in learning to protect yourself from people who wish you harm.

I could even conceive of a use of HEALING energies as a weapon of torture. Imagine healing someone enough so they won't die but not enough to ease their suffering...

TheWomanMonster
July 4th, 2007, 09:21 PM
Fairy_Princess has some really excellent points there... similar to my own views actually.

I believe that magic is what it is, and that 'good and evil' is all in the intents and purposes of the caster.

It is just in how you look at it.

I do not choose to harm others through magical means, but I respect the practice in and of itself, because if you don't understand what is possible how can you prevent it?

Drouach
July 4th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Well.....as I'm here to learn..... I will leave my mind open to what you say.

Sure my world view may have some conclusions in it, but then if I was an almighty expert, I wouldn't be trying to learn.

I think what most people are concerned about is the fruit of karma. Karma being the action.

Consequences, that a person determines that they don't like for whatever reason.

I guess to make me understand this better, I would have to get a better handle on magic and energy.

Being empathic I have felt what I would call darkness, or blackness or negativity from people, and a disembodied being.

But I guess those are just 'descriotions' of something, not the actual thing. Descriptions being interpretations.

Perhaps malevolence is a better word.
http://www.allwords.com/word-malevolence.html

malevolent
adj
1. Wishing to do evil to others; malicious.
Thesaurus: malicious, evil, wicked, vicious, rancorous, spiteful, bitter, vindictive, venomous; Antonym: benevolent.

Libris
July 5th, 2007, 07:48 AM
I've read that article before and I whole-heartedly agree. I don't believe that magick can be divided into discrete categories or that those groups would be good or bad. Also, from one person's perspective a magick might be good, say magick to get the specific job they want, but from another person's view it would be bad, as they didn't get the job they really wanted... the other person did.

I'm going to reread it -and the other posts and then come back with more. These are just my initial thoughts.

yemayashija
July 5th, 2007, 08:06 AM
Perhaps malevolence is a better word.
http://www.allwords.com/word-malevolence.html

malevolent
adj
1. Wishing to do evil to others; malicious.
Thesaurus: malicious, evil, wicked, vicious, rancorous, spiteful, bitter, vindictive, venomous; Antonym: benevolent.[/QUOTE]


i had to really think out the best way to word my answer to this one....
i like the thesaurus additions above, i think it better describes the intention behind the energy sent. i don't believe in "black magic" persay, however i do believe that magick is energy that is manipulated to come to a desired conclusion. now that being said, i am sure that we all know basics of science and understand that all energy is basically 3 types positive charged, negative charged and nuetral; on that premise i believe it is the person or their intention that is evil, malicious or dark/black not the energy used. black as a descriptor for magick is merely stating that the magick is done in a void of feeling, or consideration of consequence. i also believe that malicious or malevolent magick does exist and is used more often than any other, and that many have a calling to it and that it is a natural attraction.

as for morality in magick, well; if we were all concerned about the morality of using magick to gain things in our and others lives (whether it's a healing from disease or to gain a new job) none of us would be using magick at all. magick is coercion on any level even if it is with good intention, and therefore amoral to begin with. i think it then boils down to how amoral one can accept being, and must set our own individual limitations based on our own feelins of comfort and no one else's.

i personally feel that for every action and desire there is an equal and justified reaction that i will use without guilt or concern for others judgement of those choices i make.

odd_duck71
July 5th, 2007, 09:13 AM
Please forgive me if this is a tangent, but do you think that an individual's views on the ethics of magic are related to his/her belief in either a universe of scarcity or of abundance? If I believe that there isn't enough good stuff to go around, and I use magical means to snag a bit for myself, then I'm taking it away from someone else. If I believe that there is plenty for everyone, then there is no guilt, maybe just a touch of sadness that others haven't learned skills to get their needs met.

Then there is the issue of believing or not believing in an absolute moral standard. Take Alexander's example of the death hex. A moral absolute dictates that causing someone's death is always wrong. But the other side would argue that if one person's hypothetical death would save the lives of x large number of others, then it would be unethical not to kill the person. Who's right? In a world of a million shades of gray, I think we just have to thoughtfully weigh the options, in consultation with our deities if that is part of our path, and then make the best decision we can.

Magic is a tool available to us, but we have to make our own decisions about which actions will allow us a good night's sleep and which ones won't.

yemayashija
July 5th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Magic is a tool available to us, but we have to make our own decisions about which actions will allow us a good night's sleep and which ones won't.

i think this is very well said.

~Elise~
July 5th, 2007, 03:46 PM
Please forgive me if this is a tangent, but do you think that an individual's views on the ethics of magic are related to his/her belief in either a universe of scarcity or of abundance? If I believe that there isn't enough good stuff to go around, and I use magical means to snag a bit for myself, then I'm taking it away from someone else. If I believe that there is plenty for everyone, then there is no guilt, maybe just a touch of sadness that others haven't learned skills to get their needs met.

Then there is the issue of believing or not believing in an absolute moral standard. Take Alexander's example of the death hex. A moral absolute dictates that causing someone's death is always wrong. But the other side would argue that if one person's hypothetical death would save the lives of x large number of others, then it would be unethical not to kill the person. Who's right? In a world of a million shades of gray, I think we just have to thoughtfully weigh the options, in consultation with our deities if that is part of our path, and then make the best decision we can.

Magic is a tool available to us, but we have to make our own decisions about which actions will allow us a good night's sleep and which ones won't.

Yes--I do agree that you either see it half full or half empty. There are no absolute moralities that I can think of. As you say too many shades of grey.



. i don't believe in "black magic" persay, however i do believe that magick is energy that is manipulated to come to a desired conclusion. now that being said, i am sure that we all know basics of science and understand that all energy is basically 3 types positive charged, negative charged and nuetral; on that premise i believe it is the person or their intention that is evil, malicious or dark/black not the energy used. black as a descriptor for magick is merely stating that the magick is done in a void of feeling, or consideration of consequence. i also believe that malicious or malevolent magick does exist and is used more often than any other, and that many have a calling to it and that it is a natural attraction.

as for morality in magick, well; if we were all concerned about the morality of using magick to gain things in our and others lives (whether it's a healing from disease or to gain a new job) none of us would be using magick at all. magick is coercion on any level even if it is with good intention, and therefore amoral to begin with. i think it then boils down to how amoral one can accept being, and must set our own individual limitations based on our own feelins of comfort and no one else's.

i personally feel that for every action and desire there is an equal and justified reaction that i will use without guilt or concern for others judgement of those choices i make.

I don't think it is amoral at all. The Universe is comprised of energy. We all have the ability to manipulate that-some better than others, I feel.
Magic is a tool-nothing more, nothing less, IMO. that and .50 cents will get you a cup of coffee at the diner.


I guess to make me understand this better, I would have to get a better handle on magic and energy.

Being empathic I have felt what I would call darkness, or blackness or negativity from people, and a disembodied being.




That dark feeling is what I"m going to teach you how to block hopefully.

Elise

Shawn Blackwolf
July 5th, 2007, 04:01 PM
Well , one of my buddies did buy me coffee ,
and a very nice lunch , for a few bits of Mgieck...

Didn't take that much manipulation...:)

Annorah
July 6th, 2007, 05:44 AM
I really liked your electrical analogy and I wholeheartedly agree that it is the intent behind the magic which is important. I always try to be ethical in my magical workings but I have to accept that others don't share my ethical/moral standpoint and might not agree with my actions. However, I am the person I have to face in the mirror and I will make the best choice I can based on the knowledge I have at the time.

Merilwen
July 7th, 2007, 12:41 AM
Great article, I really like how she fletched out the semantics in the beginning.

I do have to say that I agree with what she had to say...though I can't really go into more detail. I don't really think I have had enough experience to really cement my beliefs on it...

~Elise~
July 7th, 2007, 07:57 AM
Great article, I really like how she fletched out the semantics in the beginning.

I do have to say that I agree with what she had to say...though I can't really go into more detail. I don't really think I have had enough experience to really cement my beliefs on it...

As long as this makes you think and helps you define your magical values and/or ethics then that is good enough.


I really liked your electrical analogy and I wholeheartedly agree that it is the intent behind the magic which is important. I always try to be ethical in my magical workings but I have to accept that others don't share my ethical/moral standpoint and might not agree with my actions. However, I am the person I have to face in the mirror and I will make the best choice I can based on the knowledge I have at the time.

No one can expect more from you.


Keep posting guys

Elise

maudlin
July 8th, 2007, 10:11 AM
i think, like practically everyone else, that magic is neither black nor white, it is the intention which makes it so.
good magic can turn and end up badly if done with the wrong intentions.

i'll probably post more later, im on my way to work right now.

wolf
July 9th, 2007, 04:29 PM
Thanks for your perspective on this.

I think that trying to sort magic/k into boxes provides limitations on understanding the nature and movement of energy.

The intent of the caster really isn't the whole understanding, however ... good intent can lead to poor/negative/evil/bad outcomes, after all.

~Elise~
July 9th, 2007, 08:09 PM
The intent of the caster really isn't the whole understanding, however ... good intent can lead to poor/negative/evil/bad outcomes, after all.

:yayah:

Yes, that is very true, but that doesn't make make it 'black' magic, just poorly cast magic. :hahugh:

~Elise~
July 10th, 2007, 06:49 PM
Lesson 3 is up!

Gypsyballad
July 14th, 2007, 11:27 PM
I, too, have to agree with what the article states. I have also read, in other sources, that magick is neither black nor white. It is merely a form of energy. What is considered to be "black magick" or "white magick" is the intent of the practitioner while casting a spell, which makes sense.