The Elder Issue

[Vigdisdotter]

So there seems to be a lot of controversy around the term "Elder" and so I thought I'd make a thread for folks to hash out their ideas in :)

In another thread the question was asked, what defines an Elder. I'm sure everyone has their own answer and I look forward to hearing them. Here's mine:

Blood, sweat and tears.

To me, an Elder is someone who has put in the time and effort to help build their community. These are the people that go short of sleep because they are juggling a job, a family, a social life and putting together that Beltaine ritual, that monthly pagan pub night, running those classes, mentoring those students that show that they are in it for the long haul, etc.

Being an Elder, or rather someone that others would consider an Elder is WORK, a lot of which is quite thankless. It's taking time out of your life to be part of more then yourself and your individual doings. It's about reaching out and being accessible, about helping others in both big and small ways. It's about being a leader, not on a pedestal, but in the trenches, working hard alongside everyone else.

In short, the idea that someone calls themselves an Elder for the sake of an ego boost is downright laughable to me. And I HAVE called those ego trippers on it, I HAVE laughed int their face when they claim to be such because when it comes right down to it, they have no clue what the term really means.

The actions of an "Elder" will speak far louder then any words said.

Now, see the next post for a little story on the subject of elders :P

[Vigdisdotter]

Back in the day, when I was just getting involved with paganism, I found a local organization, got to meet people and was added to the mailing list.

Now at the time, I had also found the wonderful world of fanfiction, specifically anime and was having much fun writing. I came up with a "cool" pen name form myself, Lady Aiyoku and as I was the member on 7 fanfiction mailing lists at the time, I set my email handle to, you guessed it, "Lady Aiyoku."

Well, take a guess what happened when a person showed up on the pagan list with that name. I got slammed by a local "elder" for daring to claim a title I wasn't "entitled" to. She went on at length about how I was making a mockery out of the title and belittling those who has actually earned.

More baffled then hurt, I explained that it was my pen name and that I wrote fanfiction. Not that she listened. She just kept pounding away at me. then her partner got in on her side and it very quickly became a flame war. The "elder" was demanding that I show her the proper respect (no remember that this is via email and I had never met this person in meat life). At that point, I told her that respect was earned, and so far all she'd done was earn my disdain.

The thing is that while she MIGHT have been an elder at one point, she lost that status (in my eyes) when she was having her hissing fit and working to divide the list.

To my mind, the position of "elder" is a transitory one and you CAN lose it; it's lose coming when others no longer see you fulfilling that role.

When you meet the real deal, the term elder will never even need to be mentioned :)

[Rudas Starblaze]

age doesnt equal wisdom by any means just as knowledge doesnt equal wisdom.





(i decided to shorten my post)

[Vigdisdotter]

age doesnt equal wisdom by any means just as knowledge doesnt equal wisdom.

Out of curiosity, do you mean that having wisdom makes one an elder?

[Rudas Starblaze]

Out of curiosity, do you mean that having wisdom makes one an elder?

pretty much.;)

and that can come at any age with or without "proper" training/education.

[Vigdisdotter]

pretty much.;)

and that can come at any age with or without "proper" training/education.

To me, it helps :) but without community involvement it's meaningless as far as being an elder goes.

I know a couple people that would make great elders, but who are practically hermits and want nothing to do with others beyond showing up of the occasional social gathering.

[Rudas Starblaze]

...... but who are practically hermits and want nothing to do with others beyond showing up of the occasional social gathering.

well i know you arent talking about me! i dont even show up for family gatherings let alone social gatherings! (i have a bit of social anxiety disorder.... not to mention i hate pretty much everyone!) :lol:

[Lunacie]

To me, it helps :) but without community involvement it's meaningless as far as being an elder goes.

I know a couple people that would make great elders, but who are practically hermits and want nothing to do with others beyond showing up of the occasional social gathering.

Well, I don't know if I'll make a "great elder" but I do know the rest of that description fits me pretty well. The only reason I've stepped up to the job is that our group would have been kaput if I hadn't agreed to become the leader. It will take time to see if I become an Elder as well as a Crone. No, age isn't the best criteria for determining what makes someone an Elder. And wisdom that isn't put to good use isn't much good at all.

I think one of the best criteria for calling someone an Elder is someone who is willing to teach what they know and realizes that they are still learning - even from the noobs.

[Vigdisdotter]

I think one of the best criteria for calling someone an Elder is someone who is willing to teach what they know and realizes that they are still learning - even from the noobs.

I totally agree :) the best elders (and teachers) and the ones that are reluctant and would prefer not to be, but do because it's needed....NOT so that they can have some grandiose title.

[Autumn]

Back in the day, when I was just getting involved with paganism, I found a local organization, got to meet people and was added to the mailing list.

Now at the time, I had also found the wonderful world of fanfiction, specifically anime and was having much fun writing. I came up with a "cool" pen name form myself, Lady Aiyoku and as I was the member on 7 fanfiction mailing lists at the time, I set my email handle to, you guessed it, "Lady Aiyoku."

Well, take a guess what happened when a person showed up on the pagan list with that name. I got slammed by a local "elder" for daring to claim a title I wasn't "entitled" to. She went on at length about how I was making a mockery out of the title and belittling those who has actually earned.

More baffled then hurt, I explained that it was my pen name and that I wrote fanfiction. Not that she listened. She just kept pounding away at me. then her partner got in on her side and it very quickly became a flame war. The "elder" was demanding that I show her the proper respect (no remember that this is via email and I had never met this person in meat life). At that point, I told her that respect was earned, and so far all she'd done was earn my disdain.

The thing is that while she MIGHT have been an elder at one point, she lost that status (in my eyes) when she was having her hissing fit and working to divide the list.

To my mind, the position of "elder" is a transitory one and you CAN lose it; it's lose coming when others no longer see you fulfilling that role.

When you meet the real deal, the term elder will never even need to be mentioned :)

They'd have lost my respect pretty quickly! Titles are titles, people who have to defend them that jealously frequently aren't worthy of them. Most elders have been through so much on the path that they don't care about titles, plus while the word Lady is nice, because of the way the word Lord is used in other contexts it always has the danger of sounding extremely conceited.

I know a physician that says "I'm hardly likely to forget I went to medical school and residency, I don't need to be reminded daily, If I were to forget we'd have far bigger problems than just a title!" An elder is unlikely to forget the school of hard knocks or the long hours of study either!

[Pagan Warrior]

This is certainly an interesting concept, and I'm with Rudas that someone who can be considered an Elder is someone with a great deal of wisdom. It's that person who seems to have all the answers and yet gives you very few because he/she knows the value of learning lifes lessons by living them.

I can wrap my mind around the community involvement but at the same time I don't really agree that it defines being an Elder but rather using that time to progress towards becoming an Elder.

I have a similar problem in my world with martial arts. I was suppose to test this year for my 4th Dan Black Belt, but I have chosen not to. In my family 4th Dan is a Junior Master ... but a Master nonetheless ... and I am not ready to permit others to consider me a Master.

[LadyWinter]

They'd have lost my respect pretty quickly! Titles are titles, people who have to defend them that jealously frequently aren't worthy of them. Most elders have been through so much on the path that they don't care about titles, plus while the word Lady is nice, because of the way the word Lord is used in other contexts it always has the danger of sounding extremely conceited.

!

I personally dont think the title Lady sounds conceited :lol: obviously and I am aware of the connotations that follow it.

I agree with what Rudas said, that imo and Elder has alot of wisdom, but for a variety of reasons may be hesitant to advance it in the community. Often people of great wisdom, are asked by people who are clearly not ready, to have it shared with them.....for various reasons throughout the span of time people who were geniuses in various fields have been mocked for their ideas.....that may make some who are not as comfortable with debate unhappy. Some also are so secure in their wisdom they dont feel the need to justify themselves. My two cents.

LadyWinter

[Lolair]

To me an Elder, with a capital 'E', is someone with experience, knowledge, wisdom, and community involvement (at some point). It doesn't matter if this person has fancy lineage or not, as I've seen lineaged elders behave like fools, it instead matters how much they give and teach to others minus selfish motivations such as power, control, and status (what many like to term 'queen bee syndrome').

Many people aspire to be elders, and even try to be right out of Wicca 101 classes. I've never understood this as Vigdisdotter said it is a thankless job! Getting pagans organized is like herding cats - they don't like to be told what to do, and it's hard to get them to pay attention! Elders put in a lot of hard work with little reward or thanks - they sacrifice their homes, their time, their life so that others can enjoy events, rituals, gatherings, festivals... Many Elders end up jaded and bitter and withdraw from the community. So all I have to say is if you want to keep them -- respect your Elders, don't take them for granted, and lend them a hand!!

:fpraise::fpraise::fpraise:

[Ivy Artemisia]

Well, take a guess what happened when a person showed up on the pagan list with that name. I got slammed by a local "elder" for daring to claim a title I wasn't "entitled" to. She went on at length about how I was making a mockery out of the title and belittling those who has actually earned.


Lord. First of all, who says you aren't entitled to it? In my opinion, titles like Lord and Lady are specific (like cords/degrees) to the trad or group in which one is in. I will not lie, and sometimes when someone like Lady Rainbowstars is on a list talking about how she changed ALL of the stoplights on her way home from school, I have myself a little chuckle, but this is way out of line. This 'elder' should have minded her own buisness, IMHO.

As to your actual question (heehee), I believe that an Elder is someone who is involved in the community or tradition, someone who is knowledgeable and wise (two seperate things in my book), and someone who is willing to share their experiences with others.

To me, an Elder would be someone who would know more than most, be willing to share with most, and help educate those who ask for it. All of this without an ego-trip. Or the queen-bee syndrome. Ick.

I agree with Lolair:

Many people aspire to be elders, and even try to be right out of Wicca 101 classes. I've never understood this as Vigdisdotter said it is a thankless job! Getting pagans organized is like herding cats - they don't like to be told what to do, and it's hard to get them to pay attention!

I don't know that I'd call myself an "elder" in any sense, but even leading a coven can correlate to what Lolair mentioned. Its a lot of work, usually you're underappreciated (not in my case, I 've got a great group), you're out the most $ of anyone in the group, and you have to pick up others' slack. Plus you have to be the bad guy if difficult changes need to be made for the good of the group. You have to put what YOU want aside for whats good for the group. And that can. be. hard. sometimes.

[Philosophia]

I personally think the label "elder" is a term you have to be given rather then something that you give yourself. I think an elder is somebody I deeply respect and honor and, personally, I don't care if they are involved in the community or not.

[~Elise~]

Its a lot of work, usually you're underappreciated (not in my case, I 've got a great group), you're out the most $ of anyone in the group, and you have to pick up others' slack. Plus you have to be the bad guy if difficult changes need to be made for the good of the group. You have to put what YOU want aside for whats good for the group. And that can. be. hard. sometimes.

quoted for truth...

[Son of Deborah]

I don't know that I'd call myself an "elder" in any sense, but even leading a coven can correlate to what Lolair mentioned. Its a lot of work, usually you're underappreciated (not in my case, I 've got a great group), you're out the most $ of anyone in the group, and you have to pick up others' slack. Plus you have to be the bad guy if difficult changes need to be made for the good of the group. You have to put what YOU want aside for whats good for the group. And that can. be. hard. sometimes.

So, so true. Not to mention the fact that you often have to deal with people who want the position or the respect that you have, so they constantly try to undermine your authority or advice.

[ap Dafydd]

My first thought was

http://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/plants_and_algae/Sambucus_nigra/more_info.html

=8-)

Like others, I don't think that anyone who tries to self-aggrandise is deserving of being considered an "elder".

I also wonder very much at why someone would want to call themselves "lord" or "lady" somethingorother as a handle for respect. Too much role playing, perhaps.

One of the chief characteristics I would have for considering someone to be an elder would be a degree of humility. Not a lack of self respect or awareness of their experience and knowledge, but humility.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Lunacie]

My first thought was

http://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/plants_and_algae/Sambucus_nigra/more_info.html

=8-)

Like others, I don't think that anyone who tries to self-aggrandise is deserving of being considered an "elder".

I also wonder very much at why someone would want to call themselves "lord" or "lady" somethingorother as a handle for respect. Too much role playing, perhaps.

One of the chief characteristics I would have for considering someone to be an elder would be a degree of humility. Not a lack of self respect or awareness of their experience and knowledge, but humility.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

I will be officiating at my first Initiation this weekend. As Gardner said, "The gods initiate, humans officiate." I like that he said we do this with humility. That in other religions the postulant kneels to the priest, but in Wicca the priest kneels before the postulant in humility. It will be my pleasure to honor my friend and postulant for the work she has done and for the spirituality she shows by kneeling and blessing her feet (etc.).

[Pagan Warrior]

I'd like to add a moment of angst, since we are on the subject of Elders. Very few things piss me off as much as some 18 year old Mormon kid with an "Elder ..." nametag trying to tell me the meaning of life.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I'd like to add a moment of angst, since we are on the subject of Elders. Very few things piss me off as much as some 18 year old Mormon kid with an "Elder ..." nametag trying to tell me the meaning of life.haha! So true! I always wonder why they (any religion) have the young ones do the recruiting, who have the little handbook memorized, rather than someone who has had years to absorb it and test it and really deeply believe it... is it just that zeal is contagious? Anyway, back on track...

To me, elder is a bit more than just HP/HPS, even if they are kick-ass and pull it all together time and time again. It's someone who has consistently given to the community and has *generations* of students. I really do think *time* and *experience* matter. Someone can be "wise beyond their years" and that's awesome, but I don't think that makes them an Elder. Likewise, time and experience aren't all that go into the equation either.

Like the fellow (and his ex-wife) who initiated my parents and my HP/HPS. I certainly don't agree with him on many accounts, but he is an Elder to me. His ex-wife is too. It's hard to say. I just think Grandfather and Grandmother when I'm with them. And I capitalize it in my head, too. ^_^

Or my godfather and his wife, some of their students have gone on to create another coven, and they are considered Elders to that new coven and *its* students and students' students.

(I need a better word than student, but it's not coming to me.)

Of course, *I* would consider them mentors and parental figures, HP and HPS, rather than *Elders*, to me anyhow. I use the term a bit more exclusively than some, I suppose. ^_^

I rather don't approve of people calling *themselves* Lord or Lady or Elder. If someone else has that huge amount of respect to want to give them a title, that's great, but you don't really get my respect if you self-title. (Internet handles, I just think are silly... if it's like an RPG thing, then whatever... mostly harmless... but IRL, gimme a break.)

[sarabethv]

While I realize this will be very unpopular, I feel that to be an Elder, one must have some age with them. Kinda like crone. One cannot become a crone at 18 no matter how wise you are. Wisdom is not necessarily associated with age, but both crone and elder imply not only the wisdom but the experience that comes with age.

As for Lady, well if you are in Europe, you may have the right to call yourself that by birth. :D My mother informed me very young that she was raising a lady and I was expected to behave accordingly, I forwarded that tradition by telling my son that he was a gentleman and expected to behave as one and my grand daughters are ladies and I frequently inform them of what a lady does or does not do.

Briefly and non inclusive:
A lady:
modulates her tone of voice to be appropriate to the situation
makes those around her comfortable in her home and in themselves
does not "make fun" of anyone but can tease a friend
is understanding but firm
stands by her morals, ethics, beliefs and standards

My mom was very clear that being a lady carries responsibility rather than privilege

[Zephyrstorm]

For my own part, an Elder is one who has given up a lot for their community, no matter how small, and who has been recognized as a person of wisdom, integrity and humility by those they serve.

A good elder does not brag, nor order others about unnecessarily, and indeed may even insist on doing some things themselves. They put up with late night calls, with having various folks in their homes. They are part guide, part counselor, part coach.
They know when to kick others in the rear and when to remain silent. They remember that there are no easy answers, and further that there are things that they do not know. An Elder remembers the times when they were the ones cleaning up their own messes, and realize that it could happen again.

Some Elders serve in a religious or spiritual capacity and others are more practical. Most Elders are well-experienced not necessarily in beliefs, but in terms of the Mysteries of life and death - whether revealed via ritual or simply life as a whole.

[Rasari]

As with others...

I feel the title and role of Elder is earned and GIVEN.
Its not a title I feel one can <i>claim</i> no matter how much they may feel they deserve it.

Respect is earned. I will not automatically accept claims at face value.

Any who think having claims questioned is disrespectful automatically sets off some warning bells.

Anyone who demands respect, a soft hand, certain privileges or rights based off of age or claimed credentials...

People who dub themselves or introduce themselves as elders automatically mark themselves for additional scrutiny.

It is something earned. It is a respectful title GIVEN by their community. Not taken. AND it is not something that can always be taken from one community to the next... Something many forget.

[RainInanna]

I will be officiating at my first Initiation this weekend. As Gardner said, "The gods initiate, humans officiate." I like that he said we do this with humility. That in other religions the postulant kneels to the priest, but in Wicca the priest kneels before the postulant in humility. It will be my pleasure to honor my friend and postulant for the work she has done and for the spirituality she shows by kneeling and blessing her feet (etc.).

That is an excellent point, and a reminder to those who insist hierarchal groups and titles like "priestess" necessitate "better than you" systems of royalty and peasants. What people forget, IMHO, is that priests are servants of the community and of the gods, as are elders. Servants! Does that make you think of someone who is better than everyone else? We are reminded that we are all equal, and some make the time and effort to help those who are in need. To help beginners along while guiding others who aren't new perhaps but are always learning.

[Lunacie]

That is an excellent point, and a reminder to those who insist hierarchal groups and titles like "priestess" necessitate "better than you" systems of royalty and peasants. What people forget, IMHO, is that priests are servants of the community and of the gods, as are elders. Servants! Does that make you think of someone who is better than everyone else? We are reminded that we are all equal, and some make the time and effort to help those who are in need. To help beginners along while guiding others who aren't new perhaps but are always learning.

Wow, what has it been? A whole year since I initiated my friend? We've had an interesting year, and been through some turbulent weather. Lessons learned the hard way are the kind that really stick with ya, eh?

I love the name my friend has given me... Mama Crone. Anyone can be called an "elder" but how many are given a personal name like this? :T

[aluokaloo]

I won't lie when i say my idea of an elder is rather stereotypical, when I think elder i think someone of yoda-like or dumbledore-ish wisdom who is extremely patient, old and grandparent-like in how they handle everything from the mundane to the dire to the outright bizarre. you THINK you can shock them, but they merely raise an eyebrow at the silly antics of youth that they remember so well, give you a firm lecture, and a story that shocks you instead. those are just my personal stereotypical views, and no i've never met an elder face-to-face. so please feel free to correct my foolish assumptions. :)

[Lunacie]

I won't lie when i say my idea of an elder is rather stereotypical, when I think elder i think someone of yoda-like or dumbledore-ish wisdom who is extremely patient, old and grandparent-like in how they handle everything from the mundane to the dire to the outright bizarre. you THINK you can shock them, but they merely raise an eyebrow at the silly antics of youth that they remember so well, give you a firm lecture, and a story that shocks you instead. those are just my personal stereotypical views, and no i've never met an elder face-to-face. so please feel free to correct my foolish assumptions. :)

That describes an elder on "a good day." Of course, even elders have bad days. But hopefully once they have earned the title of "elder" they know when they're having a bad day and they excuse themselves and go meditate or ground themselves or something. :smile:

[Darkest Eve]

So there seems to be a lot of controversy around the term "Elder" and so I thought I'd make a thread for folks to hash out their ideas in :)

In another thread the question was asked, what defines an Elder. I'm sure everyone has their own answer and I look forward to hearing them.

An Elder is someone that I could look to, without hesitation, for guidance, comfort, support, and leadership.

I don't think age is a determining factor. Experience, work, effort, compassion, understanding, and a willingness to listen and go above and beyond for those that look to you....

That would be my definition.