Shamanism and pain

[David19]

Ok, this is something that latin_baller mentioned in the thread about shamanism and drugs, but I wanted to ask has anyone here used the path of pain in their shamanic paths?.

I've been reading a variety of articles on that, and one of the best ones is Raven Kaldera's:

Blood and Fire: The Ordeal Path of Northern Tradition Shamanism (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/ordealpathNT.html)

http://www.sensuoussadie.com/spiritualityarticles/treasurefaq.htm - this one is about a spiritual and magical form of BDSM.

And there's a variety of books written on the subject of using pain to achieve magical and spiritual goals (and to achieve some kind of transformation). I believe Stephen E. Flowers has a book out called 'Carnal Alchemy: A Sado-Magical Exploration of Pleasure, Pain and Self-Transformation', 'Modern Primitives' by V. Vale (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Primitives-Re-Search-Vale/dp/0965046931) is supposed to be good too,and there are many others (Ben gave a great list in a thread in the Wicca forum (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=149563&page=2&highlight=BDSM)).

Anyway, what do you think about the path of pain in shamanism, do you use it, or are you against using it?.

Even though I'm not a shaman or a shamanic practicioner, I definantly want to get some of those books listed above.

[Torulf]

"Pain is just weakness leaving the body" - Shihan Howard Collins

If I feel that pain is essential in order to do something I dont mind using it. Quite a lot of energy in pain wouldn't you say?
Isn't it almost impossible to not involve pain sometimes? I mean as pain may often influence choices we make.

[David19]

"Pain is just weakness leaving the body" - Shihan Howard Collins

If I feel that pain is essential in order to do something I dont mind using it. Quite a lot of energy in pain wouldn't you say?
Isn't it almost impossible to not involve pain sometimes? I mean as pain may often influence choices we make.

I think you're right, there's a lot of potential power in pain, you just have to know how to use it and harness it right for it to be useful for practical magical things (bear in mind, that's just my opinion, it doesn't come from experience).

I personally would like to get some of the books I mentioned in the original post, as this topic really interests me.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I find it interesting , David , you got only one response ,
on this thread...so here goes...

I have practiced ecstatic trance through pain , with my
partners , and lovers...not to the point of truly hurting them...

not MY path...but taking them into a state where they have
left the body , and astral projected , to bring back information ,
under hypnotic suggestion...

I have used forms of BDSM , to build an energy cone , and call
spiret entities...

and I have pushed myself , in different physical stresses , past
the point of comfortable endurance , to the point , where I ,
myself , traveled into other realms...

Actually , one of the ways I have gone into trance the furthest ,
is through this method...pain , as retual practice...

So...there is your first documented answer...hope it helps...

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think you could also look top the Plains Indians of America. A Sun Dance is I believe the ceremony of being hung by hooks or bones threw the skin. The Participants prepare for days and then are hung for hours / days if memory serves me correctly.

http://www.crystalinks.com/sundance.html

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/sundance.htm

http://rebelcherokee.labdiva.com/Kiowasundance.html

http://www.psyeta.org/sa/sa1.1/lawrence.html

http://www.lakotawritings.com/The_Sun_Dance_Ritual.htm

[David19]

I find it interesting , David , you got only one response ,
on this thread...so here goes...

I have practiced ecstatic trance through pain , with my
partners , and lovers...not to the point of truly hurting them...

not MY path...but taking them into a state where they have
left the body , and astral projected , to bring back information ,
under hypnotic suggestion...

I have used forms of BDSM , to build an energy cone , and call
spiret entities...

and I have pushed myself , in different physical stresses , past
the point of comfortable endurance , to the point , where I ,
myself , traveled into other realms...

Actually , one of the ways I have gone into trance the furthest ,
is through this method...pain , as retual practice...

So...there is your first documented answer...hope it helps...

Thanks for the response, and your reply did definantly help and was very interesting :).

[David19]

I think you could also look top the Plains Indians of America. A Sun Dance is I believe the ceremony of being hung by hooks or bones threw the skin. The Participants prepare for days and then are hung for hours / days if memory serves me correctly.

http://www.crystalinks.com/sundance.html

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/sundance.htm

http://rebelcherokee.labdiva.com/Kiowasundance.html

http://www.psyeta.org/sa/sa1.1/lawrence.html

http://www.lakotawritings.com/The_Sun_Dance_Ritual.htm

Thanks for the links :).

[Lolair]

Pain doesn't have to be BDSM, it can be quite the opposite -- non-sexual and self-inflicted. Pain is one of the ways to ecstatic trance, other traditional methods are dancing, drumming, and hallucinogens (or alcohol). If you combine them all you get yourself in quite the headspace for ritual. My hubby's previous Gardnerian coven used the scourge in ritual, but I noticed it was used mainly for play. My hubby takes it seriously though and has been known to scourge himself before ritual leaving quite the pattern of bruises, but he also uses the other methods for trance along with the scourging. He is the only witch I have met that still uses the scourge for its intended purpose. It seems to have been put aside in favour of less painful ritual tools by modern day pagans.

For people like myself pain is pleasure so I tend to save it for the bedroom. For others, I simply do not recommend pain as a trance-inducing method. If you are too focused on being in pain and not liking it, then you are missing the purpose of receiving that pain. It is supposed to be a method of escape or freeing the soul - not a test of endurance. You have to be able to take yourself away from the pain and use it to leap into trance or change that pain into ecstasy. It is a demonstration of the mind, will, and spirit over the body and the material plane. If all you can feel is the pain then I'd recommend the booze, drugs or drumming instead.
:drinking:

Slainte,
Lolair

[Simply Puzzled]

My hubby's previous Gardnerian coven used the scourge in ritual, but I noticed it was used mainly for play. My hubby takes it seriously though and has been known to scourge himself before ritual leaving quite the pattern of bruises, but he also uses the other methods for trance along with the scourging.

While I am not familiar with your husbands former coven, I can say that based on Gardner's writing, the scourge is most definitely not intended to be used as an instrument of pain, but that it is also not a toy for play. The concept behind it is that the constant light strokes to the back force more blood to flow that way, moving it away from the head, helping to induce trance. It's the same reason I take *really* hot baths to help induce trance.

[Lolair]

While I am not familiar with your husbands former coven, I can say that based on Gardner's writing, the scourge is most definitely not intended to be used as an instrument of pain, but that it is also not a toy for play. The concept behind it is that the constant light strokes to the back force more blood to flow that way, moving it away from the head, helping to induce trance. It's the same reason I take *really* hot baths to help induce trance.
That doesn't make sense to me, it would be like using a strangulation cord as a necklace. I do not think that light strokes from a scourge could induce trance, but they can make you feel lightheaded, which could possibly lead to trance. From my personal experience in order to get into that headspace I need the pain when it comes to using a scourge.It may not have been intended that way by Gardner, but we're talking about shamanistic techniques here, not Wiccan - my partner and I's use in more in line with shamanism then his training - sorry if I confused you. To me using the scourge seems tame when it comes to other pain techniques like ritual piercing and suspension.

Really hot baths are good for feeling lightheaded also, almost like what a stint in a sweat lodge would do. Other techniques to use could be Osman Spare's Death Posture technique and I have known some practitioners to use mild strangulation or breathing techniques to achieve the same goal.

[Lupabitch]

Just FYI, not all BDSM is sexual. In fact, for some people it's less about sex than it is about power exchange and/or altered states of consciousness.

My mate and I use BDSM and fetishes for kink magic, which relies on the altered states of consciousness inherent to such activities for magical work. This includes not only practical magic, but also metamorphic magic aimed at journeying inward and exploring the realms of the psyche, as well as making necessary changes. Pain is one tool in our arsenal.

[darkchild]

Just FYI, not all BDSM is sexual. In fact, for some people it's less about sex than it is about power exchange and/or altered states of consciousness.

My mate and I use BDSM and fetishes for kink magic, which relies on the altered states of consciousness inherent to such activities for magical work. This includes not only practical magic, but also metamorphic magic aimed at journeying inward and exploring the realms of the psyche, as well as making necessary changes. Pain is one tool in our arsenal.


I agree. BDSM is a powerful tool used for these purposes.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I don't know if it would trully fall under pain but fasting can be a form of pain and induce trance like states. In moderation it can be indusive of various levels of trance and enlightenment. In extremes it borders upon death and collapse of the physical body.

I know it is one facet that is mentioned in journey work.

[Lupabitch]

Fasting can be used, though as you mentioned in moderation. I don't fast myself because my blood sugar drops and I become pretty lethargic if I don't get a certain amount of decent food in the day. However, properly used, it can be excellent for cleansing the body, and the experience itself can, as you mentioned, cause altered states of consciousness.

Prolonged dancing can also be considered a form of pain-induced trance, as pushing your body well beyond its normal limits of activity can be incredibly uncomfortable.

[Hamelyn]

The short answer is that this little neo does use pain. Sometimes I use it in magic and everyday life as a way to lose or gain clarity, and I use it for pleasure in BDSM- though in my case BDSM is, like rituals, more about getting my state of mind/consciousness where it needs to be to make something happen. Sometimes this crosses over with magic, but rarely, and I'm getting off the subject of pain.

My truth? Pain is a highly versatile and effective tool to have in your magical toolkit, but it adds risk to a person's magical practices. Whether you're talking about self-inflicted pain or assisted pain, it opens a nasty can of questions and concerns. There are health risks to be minimized, legal risks to consider, and it's not socially acceptable by most mainstream Western cultures. I can hardly blame them- like many tools used in neoshamanic and shamanic practices, you have to wonder about whether your tool has become an addiction. There's a fine line between an ordeal master and a cutter, and it's almost impossible to tell them apart. That's the main reason I don't tell people about my use of pain, or suggest pain to new neoshamans/neopagans... I don't know them well enough and I'd hate to be responsible for creating a potentially hazardous crutch. (Or get arrested.)

[Lupabitch]

The short answer is that this little neo does use pain. Sometimes I use it in magic and everyday life as a way to lose or gain clarity, and I use it for pleasure in BDSM- though in my case BDSM is, like rituals, more about getting my state of mind/consciousness where it needs to be to make something happen. Sometimes this crosses over with magic, but rarely, and I'm getting off the subject of pain.

My truth? Pain is a highly versatile and effective tool to have in your magical toolkit, but it adds risk to a person's magical practices. Whether you're talking about self-inflicted pain or assisted pain, it opens a nasty can of questions and concerns. There are health risks to be minimized, legal risks to consider, and it's not socially acceptable by most mainstream Western cultures. I can hardly blame them- like many tools used in neoshamanic and shamanic practices, you have to wonder about whether your tool has become an addiction. There's a fine line between an ordeal master and a cutter, and it's almost impossible to tell them apart. That's the main reason I don't tell people about my use of pain, or suggest pain to new neoshamans/neopagans... I don't know them well enough and I'd hate to be responsible for creating a potentially hazardous crutch. (Or get arrested.)

I'm not sure how you're defining "ordeal master". You're comparing that role to "cutter", which generally means self-inflicted pain. Can you clarify, please?

As for people becoming addicted to pain or getting into it for the "wrong" reasons, look at BDSM in general. Yes, you get people who go to public events just to get their jollies, but those people tend to get ostracized pretty quickly. And there are some people for whom pain is a true fetish. Sadism and masochism are not mental disorders; these are not people who are "addicted", any more than someone who is heterosexual is "addicted" to the opposite sex. Someone who is truly psychologically addicted to pain (or anything else) already had a predisposition towards addiction, and is not a healthy individual. Most of the people involved in kink and kink magic are healthy and stable.

This is why I like the RACK (Risk-Aware Consensual Kink) acronym--"Risk-Aware" places the responsibility on the part of the people choosing to participate; it also acknowledges that nothing is truly safe. "Safe, Sane and Consensual" can be used as well, but I think it can suggest a certain amount of trust in a safety net that isn't there. No, it's not safe--but neither is magic. Yet we practice it anyway.

As for pain and related practices being socially unacceptable, this is why there is a Scene-at-large with public events (including ones that are purely informational). It's also why there are numerous books on BDSM, and a growing number on BDSM sex magic. The situation is a LOT better than it was even a couple of decades ago. Thanks to the efforts of sex-positive people in general you can now go to B&N or Borders and find books on all sorts of sexual topics--no longer are we limited to sneaking into the seedy corner porn shop. And there's more accurate information out there in the public domain and in the media. Yes, it takes time, but that's true of anything that involves changing the minds of entire populations. It hasn't been that long ago that cops got called routinely on pagan rituals, regardless of what type.

IMO, it's all a matter of what you tell people. If I get someone under the age of 18 asking me about this sort of thing, I tell them to come back when they're of-age. If I get an adult who has no experience with BDSM/fetishes, or with magic, I give them some 101-level book suggestions to give them context. If they come up to me asking for sex magic spells/etc., I give them the book suggestions and then hope when they come back they've got a better idea of what's going on (usually they don't, though, because they were expecting in-person instruction ;) ). And if it's someone who has experience in the same things, then I may take the opportunity to trade notes. It's the same way with any form of magic. You gauge what experience the person has had, and inform them accordingly. However, you are not responsible for what people do with the information you give them.

(BTW, mod-folks, if this is getting too much for the general forum population, let me know.)

[Hamelyn]

Lupa,

I completely agree with basically everything you said. So I see no reason to argue with you. Since you asked questions though, I'll answer them and clarify. Also, I'm going to focus more on magical pain than lifestyle bdsm, because that's another topic. (Though you could apply most of what I say here to either.) Hope that's what you were going for.

1. I loosely used the term 'ordeal master' to mean a person who, with great awareness, uses pain and/or the psychodrama often found in BDSM or ancient practices for spiritual and emotional catharsis. People who use it to get something done- to come to grips with something, to tap the spirit world, to heal something, or whatever. Meanwhile, I regard cutters and the like people who are addicted and do not use this tool in a healthy way. Instead of using pain or psychodrama with a guiding goal, they're losing their control to an addiction and that's bad. It's the same thing as the difference between someone who uses hallucinogens in magic because it helps them reach an altered state of consciousness and someone who uses hallucinogens constantly because it gets them away from things they don't want to deal with. The contrast is stark- I completely agree with all the differences you mentioned. The problem is, it's very hard for even a person who knows lots about this kind of thing to determine which kind of pain-user a person is. Is it for pleasure/magic/sanity or some combination or are they just hurting themselves? Imagine how much harder it is for somebody who doesn't know about this kind of stuff and would rather not.

2. Which brings me to my next point. Despite a growing subcultural acceptance of pain and psychodrama in ritual catharsis and personal lifestyle, the mainstream culture still has great difficulty accepting it. More outlets are convenient, but they certainly don't reduce the legal and social risks in letting the cat out of the bag in the wrong situation. Just because more people are willing to accept it doesn't mean everybody will, or even can. It's not much different from other magic in this respect: sometimes, all you can hope for is that a person who can't understand your practices will trust you know what you're doing, and sometimes they decide you don't and make trouble for you because they feel that you're not one of these self-aware people.

3. As an advocate for personal responsibility, I do agree that people should be held accountable for their actions. As a neopagan, I do feel somewhat responsible for what people do with the information I give them. Medicine comes with warning labels and even claymore mines come with a frightening label: FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY. That's because someone, somewhere, did something stupid. For example, a few months ago somebody who knew very little about machine guns asked me to show him how to clean one. I showed him how to break it down and how to put it back together, but he'd never done this before. One of the pieces that goes back into the weapon has a smaller piece that has to face a certain direction, and if it's not, the piece won't come back out and you've completely screwed up the weapon. This is so important, so critical, and I do it so often, that I completely forgot to mention it. And we were down one weapon as a result. Is it his fault? Of course not. He came to me because he knew I knew what I was doing, and I did not give him the information he needed to succeed. If I were going to teach a kid how to hunt, I'd include the ethics of hunting for food and we would talk about unnecessary suffering and the like. This may not be the same as pointing someone to a 101-level book, like you mentioned, but in my experience a person asking me about how to use pain in ritual isn't just looking for a book. They're asking me because they think I know what I'm talking about, and while I may not be responsible for what they do with the information, I am responsible (if I decide to help them) for giving them as complete an education on the topic as I can. Everything is, after all, connected.

[Lupabitch]

Lupa,

I completely agree with basically everything you said. So I see no reason to argue with you. Since you asked questions though, I'll answer them and clarify. Also, I'm going to focus more on magical pain than lifestyle bdsm, because that's another topic. (Though you could apply most of what I say here to either.) Hope that's what you were going for.

I would imagine it's a case of us coming at the same thing from different angles and semantics, just in need of a bit of clarification :)


1. I loosely used the term 'ordeal master' to mean a person who, with great awareness, uses pain and/or the psychodrama often found in BDSM or ancient practices for spiritual and emotional catharsis. People who use it to get something done- to come to grips with something, to tap the spirit world, to heal something, or whatever.

Okay, we're on the same page here.


Meanwhile, I regard cutters and the like people who are addicted and do not use this tool in a healthy way. Instead of using pain or psychodrama with a guiding goal, they're losing their control to an addiction and that's bad. It's the same thing as the difference between someone who uses hallucinogens in magic because it helps them reach an altered state of consciousness and someone who uses hallucinogens constantly because it gets them away from things they don't want to deal with.

Again, I agree. (See? I told you it was semantics ;) )


The contrast is stark- I completely agree with all the differences you mentioned. The problem is, it's very hard for even a person who knows lots about this kind of thing to determine which kind of pain-user a person is. Is it for pleasure/magic/sanity or some combination or are they just hurting themselves? Imagine how much harder it is for somebody who doesn't know about this kind of stuff and would rather not.

The "rather not" part is where you get a lot of misunderstandings, of course. It's a lot easier to say "OMG those people are destructive!!!" regardless of what's actually happening. As for the abuse vs constructive use thing, this is why I tend to be very cautious about getting involved with others in this sort of work (or even magic in general, or BDSM in general). First off, there's the point you made in that abusers can be deceptive about their true intentions. Granted, I like to think that most people are good people, and that at the most there are honest mistakes and inexperience. But there are also those few people who are truly messed up. Second, with magic and BDSM, you already have volatile situations in which you can find yourself more open to the other person(s) than you intended--putting them together in one practice just magnifies that chance for vulnerability. This is why my mate and I tend to emphasize the need to know one's partner very well before embarking on this sort of path. (In other words, we agree again!)


2. Which brings me to my next point. Despite a growing subcultural acceptance of pain and psychodrama in ritual catharsis and personal lifestyle, the mainstream culture still has great difficulty accepting it. More outlets are convenient, but they certainly don't reduce the legal and social risks in letting the cat out of the bag in the wrong situation. Just because more people are willing to accept it doesn't mean everybody will, or even can. It's not much different from other magic in this respect: sometimes, all you can hope for is that a person who can't understand your practices will trust you know what you're doing, and sometimes they decide you don't and make trouble for you because they feel that you're not one of these self-aware people.

This is true. Even without the non-vanilla aspects, people can get freaked out and panic, and end up painting other participants as crazy, dangerous, etc.


3. As an advocate for personal responsibility, I do agree that people should be held accountable for their actions. As a neopagan, I do feel somewhat responsible for what people do with the information I give them. Medicine comes with warning labels and even claymore mines come with a frightening label: FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY. That's because someone, somewhere, did something stupid. For example, a few months ago somebody who knew very little about machine guns asked me to show him how to clean one. I showed him how to break it down and how to put it back together, but he'd never done this before. One of the pieces that goes back into the weapon has a smaller piece that has to face a certain direction, and if it's not, the piece won't come back out and you've completely screwed up the weapon. This is so important, so critical, and I do it so often, that I completely forgot to mention it. And we were down one weapon as a result. Is it his fault? Of course not. He came to me because he knew I knew what I was doing, and I did not give him the information he needed to succeed. If I were going to teach a kid how to hunt, I'd include the ethics of hunting for food and we would talk about unnecessary suffering and the like. This may not be the same as pointing someone to a 101-level book, like you mentioned, but in my experience a person asking me about how to use pain in ritual isn't just looking for a book. They're asking me because they think I know what I'm talking about, and while I may not be responsible for what they do with the information, I am responsible (if I decide to help them) for giving them as complete an education on the topic as I can. Everything is, after all, connected.

I can see where you're coming from, and I don't think you're wrong. I think for me, since I'm almost entirely self-taught, that I tend to err on the side of personal responsibility, and I figure that there may be a small percentage of casualties from people who didn't quite get it. I think part of it, too, is making sure I don't drive myself crazy worrying about what will happen if, say, somebody gets ahold of one of my books and ends up doing something really dumb supposedly due to something they read. However, I do agree that it is best to give the best information possible; I just tend to be wary of newbies in regards to kink magic. Part of it is being biologically female--again, while I like to believe in the best of people, I have had a couple of incidents where newbies were....well...rude.