Pentacle/Pentagram

[Shy Hawk]

This has always been a question I've had. I've heard that a pentagram and pentacle were the same symbol. I've heard that the pentagram was the 5 pointed star and the pentacle was a 5 pointed star with a circle around it. I've heard that a pentacle was the star inside a circle and a pentagram was an inverted pentacle. WHICH IS CORRECT?!
I've always associated pentagrams as somehow Satanic, and I'm not sure if this is a Christian distortion or not. What is correct terminology? And, are they interchangable?
It may sound silly, but in my reading and conversations this comes up a lot. Also, I find conflicting answers.
Thanks a lot,
Shy Hawk

[Jamie]

You were right, a pentagram is a five pointed star, whilst a pentacle is a five pointed star enclosed in a circle. You were also right in that satanism uses the pentagram. When they use pentagrams however, it will have one point facing downwards, and two facing upwards. You may also notice a pagan wearing this, but it has a totally different meaning to the satanistic version, which means body over soul. It simply means that the pagan in question is in a period of introspection :)

Hope that helped!

[Rima]

Yes, as far as I see it, satanists tend to turn the symbols from other religions upside down - like the cross, and the pentagram...

[Shy Hawk]

Ah, this makes sense, thanks all.
Shy Hawk

[bluecat]

Thinking about this one ... gotta word it right; it's like a lot of stuff attached to it, ya know baggage, that a person should be careful about it. Although there are folks who believe they have the definitive answer there will be three more versions by three more different people. Like we always say in Anthropology research, "If you want 12 different answers, just ask 10 people the same question."

Blue

[Jamie]

Oh of course, I didn't mean to preach at you. That was just my understanding of it :)

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Jamie
Oh of course, I didn't mean to preach at you. That was just my understanding of it :)

No worries Jamie, I was not directing my comments at you, but towards things in general.

Blue :cool:

[Amora]

I always wondered the answer to this one as well and I too have heard 20 different answers!:confused:

[Vinga]

Good question! I asked a friend of mine that has a lot of years behind her in wicca, and she said there is no difference between a pentagram and a pentacle. She said it's just two names for the same thing. I told her that I had always thought the circle was the difference, but she said it wasn't, that both pentagrams and pentacles come with or without the circle.

So I am still as confused as I was before I asked *LOL*.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Rima
Yes, as far as I see it, satanists tend to turn the symbols from other religions upside down - like the cross, and the pentagram...

And some Pagans I know turn the pentagram upside down in order to "draw in" or "invoke" energy. Just because it's upside down doesn't make it wrong or Satanic.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Vinga
Good question! I asked a friend of mine that has a lot of years behind her in wicca, and she said there is no difference between a pentagram and a pentacle.

A pentaGRAM is the geometric shape ~ the five-pointed star. A pentaCLE is the five-pointed star with the circle around it.

[bluecat]

This is one of those things that has been debated as long as I can remember. Mairwen has hit it on the head when she said that just because it was upside down doesn't necessarily make it Satanic or evil.

It has, again thanks to HOLLYWOOD and the news media, been shaded to mean evil no matter which way it is displayed.

There is a version of the pentagram that is inverted with a goat's head superimposed on it, this is supposed to be Satanic in nature.

It all really boils down to the intent of the user. I have really found that some people use it purely for the "shock" value. This is really sad because of the fact that most of us see it as a symbol of what we believe, much like Jewish folks see the Star of David and Christian folks see the Cross of Crucifix. There are other symbols people hold to be sacred or holy, not just these I have mentioned.

I do know that there are those who wear the Cross or Crucifix in an inverted fashion to symbolize their allegience to what they believe is the Devil, I am not sure about the Star of David, bananabrain may be able to shed some light on that.

In short, although you will hear some folks impose "rules" on this symbol of what it means and what it should be called it really makes little or no difference. Those rules show the intent of the user and if they have such a rule, is there a hidden intent somewhere to possible use of it in the reverse postion for a darker intent? Just asking.

Blue:cool:

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by bluecat
There is a version of the pentagram that is inverted with a goat's head superimposed on it, this is supposed to be Satanic in nature.

This isn't necessarily Satanic, either. Most likely, it's meant to represent Baphomet in Scottish Rite Freemasonry.


to symbolize their allegience to what they


8O I really need to get my eyes checked; my dyslexia is acting up badly! I thought that said "symbolize their intellegence"!! :eek:


is there a hidden intent somewhere to possible use of it in the reverse postion for a darker intent?

Using Mr as an example. He will wear his pentacle ring inverted on occasion for shear energetic reasons ~ usually on days he's not "feeling up to par".

As for other people, well, ask them, because who's to say what's going on in someone else's mind? :crazy:

Mari

[bluecat]

This isn't necessarily Satanic, either. Most likely, it's meant to represent Baphomet in Scottish Rite Freemasonry.

I know this Mairwen, however, I also am aware that there are many satanic groups who have adopted this as their symbol. This is mostly because of the influence of the media and the entertainment industry.


I really need to get my eyes checked; my dyslexia is acting up badly! I thought that said "symbolize their intellegence"!!

:eek: Hehehehehehe ... it's nice to know that I am not alone ;).

As far as my remarks for the darker intent, Mr most undoubtedly knows more about the symbolism than many of the folks who go around acting "bad" and is much more responsible in his daily actions!

The darker intent I was speaking of could be anything from simple show; "Look at me, I'm evil!" to really having some sort of intention to do something and not to display to folks that they were not "up to par" as Mr does. :)

Blue :cool:

[Mairwen]

This is mostly because of the influence of the media and the entertainment industry.

That's almost laughable ... I'm going to do this because I saw it on TV. .... :eek: ..... Unfortunately, this happens all too often, in the Craft, as well as elsewhere. Why can't people see that TV is just that ~ Media ~ and nothing more? :(

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Mairwen


That's almost laughable ... I'm going to do this because I saw it on TV. .... :eek: ..... Unfortunately, this happens all too often, in the Craft, as well as elsewhere. Why can't people see that TV is just that ~ Media ~ and nothing more? :(


I know, it's more than almost laughable, it is laughable, when you really think about it. But TV has all kinds of people imitating it. Young kids are getting hurt imitating what they see on the Wrestling shows, one young boy in Florida even got a life sentence for killing a young girl and he said they were just acting out something from a wrestling show. Then there are all if the "IN YOUR FACE" talk shows that seem to breed violence and egg it on, while the host and producers vehemently deny it.

The latest thing is the "Jackass" show, where people are put on TV for doing stupid and dangerous stuff, and people, mostly kids, are imitating them.

I can remember after "The Craft" how many young kids suddenly came out of the woodwork and just declared themselves witches. I was getting letters everyday asking me to teach them the stuff they saw in the movie! ... Makes you want to just scream at someone. ... Then there was the Blair Witch Project, which was a great reason to take Dramamine, but a lousy movie. That movie has spawned a sequel as well as many games.

There are many RPG folks who have delusions and desires of being a witch but can't learn because they want to go straight to the "good stuff", whatever that is, like I don't know what they mean ;).

I often wonder what some of these folks would say if they were told to read Robert Grave's
The White Goddess and be prepared to answer questions? Would they even know where to find the book?

Ah, well. Life goes on, :)

Blue :cool:

Stepping down and giving the soap box a good swift kick!

[Shy Hawk]

I agree with you Bluecat in 99% of the time. However, I will tell you something funny. Or not funny....
I have many witches in my family but, I never got interested in witchcraft till I saw "the Craft". Then I researched it, and found out the truth (and I also found a lot of false information). In the end, I had learned a lot. But, the "Craft" got me really interested.
Now, I know the difference between supernatural and unnatural. I know the principles of magick and when to (and not to) use magick. I also learned that the media made up a lot of things, and played up other ones.
But I agree....in almost every other case I've seen, Wicca and other forms of the craft/Paganism are a passing fad for the younger ones. :rolleyes:
It does bother me, when I see it portrayed falsely. I don't want to underestimate people but, young "Wiccans" sometimes frighten me, because I'm not sure if they even know what Wicca really is, or if they are going by media portrayals.
:eek:
I see this Teenie Bopper Wicca craze, and it scares me. I don't want Pagans to see their beloved religion quickly turn into "the new craze". :eek: :eek:
I want there to be public info available, but maybe we should be a little more careful about who we give access to our BOS/Grimoires. Do you guys think that a BOS should be available to the public online or in a book? Or maybe, only a limited amount...
What do y'all think? Maybe this deserves its own thread...thoughts?
Shy Hawk

[bluecat]

Shy Hawk, you may be a very small exception. You should also pay attention that I did not say this was true in every case, I just stated that these people came out of the woodwork, this was not pointed at one or two people, but towards a great many people in general who have long since forgotten their short infatuous flirtation with witchcraft.

I have found it best not to internalize what people say.

Blue

[Shy Hawk]

I s'pose you're right. Sorry if I took what you said personally. But, anyhow....I know what you mean.
Shy Hawk

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by bluecat
There are many RPG folks who have delusions and desires of being a witch but can't learn because they want to go straight to the "good stuff", whatever that is, like I don't know what they mean ;)

One of my students sez (and I believe her because I know the type) she knows a group of "gamers" who honestly think that the stuff in Mage: The Ascension is real. 8O :confused: :rolleyes: :D :eek: :bad: :crazy: :o ;)

[Elaine]

It is very sad.....Now I know that I am still new to everything around here, but I have a couple things I want to say on the subject.....Being in the media (radio for those who don't know) and having met many times people who work in television...I can account for the fact that people will believe anything the media tells them!!! It's surprising, sometimes, how closely people really do pay attention to the media.....regardless....I mean I've met people that actually take tabloids seriously!!! Some people are just dumb...that's all there is to it!!!

Shoot me if you want, but I own "The Craft" on DVD...(I liked it way before I knew anything about paganism and for the record that is NOT what got me interested in this path!!) and at the end of it there are interviews with the cast and crew and they were interviewing Fairuza Balk (the pasty white chick with the nose piercing) and they were saying that they got most of their info from her because she is Wiccan (or so they said) now...the last time I watched this movie I was still very new to studying my path and even at that point found some things upsetting....

My 2 cents about the tv shows effecting kids.....I agree they do have an effect but for the little ones that are hurting others because of these shows (ie wrestling and "jackass") Where are the parents when these kids are watching these shows.....??? I realize you can't watch your kids all of the time but "Jackass" is on at like 10 or something like that....why aren't the younger kids in bed by then?? I think a lot of blame is being taken off of parents lately for the things their kids are doing!!

Back to the witch issue.....specifically Bluecats comment about The White Goddess ....my response to that is that it wouldn't matter what book it was or even if it was a website....these people aren't like me trying to go down a new path.....these are people who think it's cool and want to get to the "good" stuff, like you said...they don't care about what the beliefs and thoughts are ....they want to be "Cool".....it makes it harder for people like me to find people to talk to because a lot of people don't take me seriously when I have a question cuz they think I'm gonna be one of them!! It's really frustrating to me....

I don't know if any of that made sense....but it was a really good conversation and I wanted to be in on it!!;) I didn't expect it to get this long considering the weekend I've had and how tired I am!!

oh well......:p

[Midnight hunter]

bluecat I know what you mean about some RPG players (not many) actually belive what they play in the games, and Being a RP'er myself (I play lots of AD&D, and RIFTS) genrally I play a user of magic but not always , and me and my friends all know the stuff is only a game and could never be able to emulate it, (make a fireball, raise the dead ect..) I my self never became a Pagan becuse of the games I play or the TV i watch, or movies for that matter, and What I read (lots of High Fantasy). I became a Pagan becuse I have never belived there could ever be one god. Just had to stick up for the majority of Gamers......

[Naillosotarrain]

Actually, there are quite a few gamers out there in fact who do believe that the games they play are real. I know because I am a gamer; and I'm not talking about simple Dungeons and Dragons or RIFTS. I'm talking about Live Action Role Playing (LARP) with White Wolf's: Mind's Eye Theater. The BIG games, such as Mage: The Ascension, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Changeling: The Dreaming, Wraith: The Oblivion, Mummy: The Resurrection, Hunter: The Reckoning, Kindred of the East, and my personal favorite, Vampire: The Masquerade. I know there are quite a few gamers out there who are like that because I've actually known several. Now, this may sound a bit crazy, but the rulebooks for those specific games that I have listed by White Wolf actually hold more truth than you give them credit for, though obviously not all of it is in fact truth. For as I have stated in the History room, you would be surprised at what you can find truth in now a days. You just have to be able to know how to separate fact from fiction, and also when it is appropriate to do so, and when it is not.

As for the BoS, it is exactly as what it means, Secret. To be known and seen by only one person, it's writer, and owner. That is why we call it the Book of Secrets.

As for the Pentagram and the Pentacle, the only difference between the two is simple mathematics. A Pentagram is geometric figure in the shape of a five pointed star, whether upside down or not, it makes no difference. A Pentacle is a Pentagram that has been enclosed by a circle, whether upside down or not, it makes no difference. The only separation between good and evil that they have is solely up to the user/wearer, and their personal use for it.

[Mairwen]

Now that was an excellent post! {{{Nail!!}}}

[Alphyna]

Hi guys! Traditionally, the pentagram has been a 5 pointed star enclosed within a circle, representing the 5 elements, and life cycles. A pentacle is a clay disk which you place upon your altar, usually with a pentagram carved into it.
Not all will agree, but without diversity, who could we debate with?
Blessings, Alphyna