What Do You Think Of Jesus Christ ?

[Veritas Et Pietas]

So, what do you think of Jesus ? His teachings, his influence, significance, and so forth. How do you see him ?

For the sake of this discussion, please focus on Jesus himself. Not Christians, specific denominations or churches.

What of hs miracles ?

[Tanya]

well, as an eclectic Wiccan, I know it often surprizes Christians to hear this from me.... I don't deny in the least, Jesus's divinity, and I have the highest regard for his teaching.

Clearly he has had an extremely strong influence and significance on the world scene... alas... I think his teachings have largerly been twisted to serve less divinely inspired interests.

[Bettie]

I think he was someone who was intelligent, charismatic, a good orator and with a great PR team.... ;)

I don't believe he was divine.

[Vigdisdotter]

He was a notable social activist of his time....assuming he actually existed.

[Lemon]

I don't think he was divine, I just think he was a man with good ideas and a voice.

[Fluoxetine]

There was debate that he was Buddhist. From the ages of 5 to his later teens there is no record of who or where he was. It is assumed at that time he was taught Buddhism and went back tothe Israelite/Palestine areas to preach what he knew.

The whole myth of dying on the cross has been the biggest PR information of all time. He was really nailed to a tree between 2 beggars on a cross. But as that is not fitting for a saviour of mankind, they upgraded him and decided a cross was better. So any truth is mixed in with fiction. If we are to take the bible in all it's writings, there would be over 50 chapters and Mary Magdeline would be in there also as a prophet and wife. But PR is PR and the truth rewritten is not as good as what has come to light from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Personally, someone existed. But he may not have been as holy as what we are today.

[Tullip Troll]

I think he was an enlightened Man. Who wanted to make change.

I do not believe him to be a child of God anymore then I or you.

[Xentor]

I like his publicity team. Someone sure knew how to make one single person the most influential human being of the past 2000 years.

[Brightshores]

well, as an eclectic Wiccan, I know it often surprizes Christians to hear this from me.... I don't deny in the least, Jesus's divinity, and I have the highest regard for his teaching.

Clearly he has had an extremely strong influence and significance on the world scene... alas... I think his teachings have largerly been twisted to serve less divinely inspired interests.
I completely agree with Tanya - I have the deepest respect for the teachings of Christ. For me, though - whether he was divine or not is besides the point - he was wise, at least divinely inspired (if not actually divine) and had much to teach the world.

[CoolJ]

He was also quite handsome, if I might say so

[Tullip Troll]

He was also quite handsome, if I might say so

LMAO

[Caitlin.ann]

I think he had a few good things to teach and was a wise person. His followers really have misconstrued his teachings, but I blame that on their almost literal following of the Old Testament as well.

[LostSheep]

I think the way he thought was pretty close to Buddhism in some respects, too.
I think he was a kind of mystic, a prophet if you like, who really did believe that he had been sent by God, or that the spirit that people call "God" for convenience was inside him, because he beleived that it was inside everyone, and that his "mission" was to try to persuade people that the way to change things and to change the way that they got on with each other was to get in touch with the spirit that he thought was in everyone.. i think that's what he meant by "no one comes to God but through me", if indeed he did actually say something like that. By listening to what he was trying to tell them, not that he was the doorkeeper to God's kingdom and the only way to0 get into it was by following the dogma that his followers laid down exactly. I certainly don't think he ever intended to found a new religion that would dictate how people lived their lives, I think he was very much against all kinds of hierarchies and power structures.

[Ælfred]

A Jewish reformer who got the religious authorities cheesed off at him for saying unpopular things. His social teachings may have been relevant to his time and place, but I don't think of him as divine.

[sarabethv]

Well, everything we have on him is from others rather than his own writings. However, from that, I would say he was a concerned and active man who attempted to change his world for the better. Those things reported as actually being said by him show wisdom, tolerance and foresight.

[lizea]

I have thought about this a lot... expecially when I went through confirmation classes (with a Methodist church... many moons ago I was raised Christian) and I honestly don't know what to think. Every record of him has been so horribly misconstrued that I don't know what to take as fact. It is like a fiction book that was based on someones life. Which parts are real, and which parts are purely the authors imagination? I believe he existed, and he must have been a great teacher, but I think he was nothing more than that. Because if he was less than that he wouldn't be the legend he is today. And I don't know... I just don't feel right about most of the things he "did"...

[Chaos Hawk]

A Jewish reformer who got the religious authorities cheesed off at him for saying unpopular things. His social teachings may have been relevant to his time and place, but I don't think of him as divine.


This is pretty much what I think as well. Having had to study Hebrew texts, I can't say that I think his teachings are original at all. I think some of the general ones may be easy to agree with, because lots of other leaders and/or wise people have said basically the same thing.

[wolfjan1]

well, as an eclectic Wiccan, I know it often surprizes Christians to hear this from me.... I don't deny in the least, Jesus's divinity, and I have the highest regard for his teaching.

Clearly he has had an extremely strong influence and significance on the world scene... alas... I think his teachings have largerly been twisted to serve less divinely inspired interests.
I completely believe that he was an enlightened man with good education and good teachings. I am just sorry that they have become so twisted and bastardized and politicized to the degree that they have.

[Cassie]

So, what do you think of Jesus ? His teachings, his influence, significance, and so forth. How do you see him ?


I think there was a historical Jesus but I suspect the Biblical and other Christian accounts of him are based on all sorts of sourses some of which go back to other traditions such as the cult of Dionysis.

I think there is a lot of wisdom and enlightenment in his teachings especially when you include the Gnostic gospels and other accounts which mainstream Christianity do not accept as authoritive. I do also see some parallels with Buddhism.

The influence of Jesus as portrayed through Christianity is world-wide and has been hugely influential in the development of western culture. Great things have been done in his name. And terrible things.

Subjectively I think that the person or persons that the Jesus stories were based on was/were probably more human, more whole, more wise and more approachable than the legend the Christian church promotes.

[Storm_Wolfe]

well, as an eclectic Wiccan, I know it often surprizes Christians to hear this from me.... I don't deny in the least, Jesus's divinity, and I have the highest regard for his teaching.

Clearly he has had an extremely strong influence and significance on the world scene... alas... I think his teachings have largerly been twisted to serve less divinely inspired interests.


I would greatly agree on that the teachings are twisted for their personal use,
one point to bring up as well, if one does not agree with "their" teaching then you are a sinner.

[Tanya]

To clarifiy my afirmation of Jesus's divinity, I would like to add

I believe rocks, hills. mountains, rivers, plants,people and other animals are also divine.

:)

LOL that's where I go from looking like a good Christian to looking like I should be burned for heresy.

:)

[wolfjan1]

Ah, yes, that Divine thing. ALL of nature is divine in its' own way.
What we as humans have done to it in the name of progress is pretty evil. And, yes, I do believe there is evil.
But the basic ten commandments, which were actually Old Testament, the Do no Harm, and the do unto others as you would have them do unto you pretty much covers it. I think Jesus tried to re-teach the ten commandments and was kind and not just tolerant but lived with the needy and the "different."

[Shatril]

First of all I want to state that I believe that we are ALL divine, as in chips off the old God/Spirit. Having said that, Jesus, I believe is the one that has shown us the way to reach our highest potential. I also believe that Buddha, Mohamad, Teresa of Avilla, were living lives that show the way to enlightenment. I call them Ascended Masters, not be cause they rule us, but because they are like school masters, who teach us how to ascend for ourselves. Jesus' teachings, when not bent to others wishes, are good teachings. One must read and interpret these teachings for themselves, and each of us will have a different take on them. This is OK, as we have the meaning that we need at this time, and we may get new insights that will later enhance the original interpretation, and occassionally change it completely. I can't tell you how many times I have read a passage that is familiar to me, and all of a sudden I find myself pounding my third-eye going; "Well of course that is what that means, I'm glad I took the time to go over that one again." I do that with many of the sacred texts.

I want to thank you all for listening to my truth, and appreciate the opportunity to read your truths.

:hugz: Shatril

[Tullip Troll]

With so many manipulations of the Story of Jesus it's really hard for me to decide what kind of a person he was. I think most of what we know of him is what passed through a broken telephone and was conviently mixed up with the stories of other faiths. But skipping all that and just looking at the lessons he taught(even if real histroy were to show he didn't) they are pretty sound teachings. However I first have to filter as much of mans crap out of those interpretations as possible.

History shows that original christianity was almost the same as Buhdism. Not at all what is practised now.

[LadyWinter]

I think Jesus was a very enlightened man who's ideas were ahead of the time he lived in....and pissed off the authorities quite thoroughly.....I like to think of him as a revolutionary.

Winter

[LostSheep]

further to my earlier ramblings, I think the message that he wanted to spread was pretty much the opposite of the monotheism ... i think he saw "God" as everywhere and everything, and what he was trying to encourage people to do was to connect with the spirit that was inside them, if only they could find it... and that was why (well, one of two reasons) he was executed... because he was a threat to the Jewish authorities because he was spreading this subversive message that priests and temples weren't needed, and to the Romans because he was getting a bit too much attention, and if he kept on like this the rabble might begin to question subservience to authority. I don't think the Romans were worried about him for religious reasons, but they saw him as a potential threat to people knowing their place.

[plumedsnake]

Jesus' key message was : Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Repent means to turn around. Most people suggests that this means turning away from sin and doing good things. While that is true he could also have been referring to a practice. We all usually have our attentions turned outwards at the information that our senses present to us. I would suggest that repenting involves reversing the direction of our attention away from sense impressions. If we can do that successfully we will find indeed that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. At hand meaning immediately present. Well many orthodox christians have been following their beliefs for about 2000 years and their lives is still a veritable hell. No kingdom of heaven at hand for them it seems.

If any christian fundies try to get literal on your ass you can always get literal back and remind them that it don't look like they got a kingdom of heaven within reach.

[Tanya]

Other translations are "The kingdom of God is HERE."

I.E. the divine is all around us....in all things, all people... the kindgom of heaven is NOW.

hmmmmmm sound's pretty witchy to me....

[LostSheep]

Yes, that's why i think that his idea of God was almost nearer to pantheism, or panentheism, than monotheism... and that's why he was seen as so subversive.

[Shatril]

Jesus' key message was : Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Repent means to turn around. Most people suggests that this means turning away from sin and doing good things. While that is true he could also have been referring to a practice. We all usually have our attentions turned outwards at the information that our senses present to us. I would suggest that repenting involves reversing the direction of our attention away from sense impressions. If we can do that successfully we will find indeed that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. At hand meaning immediately present. Well many orthodox christians have been following their beliefs for about 2000 years and their lives is still a veritable hell. No kingdom of heaven at hand for them it seems.

If any christian fundies try to get literal on your ass you can always get literal back and remind them that it don't look like they got a kingdom of heaven within reach.

In the same vane, it could mean exactly "Turn Around and look at what is around you for this is the kingdom." I don't think this is the total sum of the kingdom, but it surely is the kingdom.

Just my two cents worth.

[Veritas Et Pietas]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I'm surprised no one mentioned the miracles.

Any thoughts on these events ?

btw, no agenda here, just seeking your thoughts, not your soul ;)

[Cassie]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I'm surprised no one mentioned the miracles.

Any thoughts on these events ?

btw, no agenda here, just seeking your thoughts, not your soul ;)

A lot of us here practice magic and so perhaps the idea of supernatural happenings is not as surprizing or 'miraculous' as it might be in other communities.

I do not doubt that Jesus effected some miricles although I think some of the miricle stories might be symbolic rather than actual; he was gifted in the use of parables.

[Tanya]

as a scientist, Im pretty skeptical of miricles, none seems particularly verifiable and i don't think any are really required to buy into Jesus's divinity.

[Infinite Grey]

Jesus = a figment of Paul's (or someone's) imagination. While there are good moral lessons in the literature of Jesus, there is also a lot of not so nice stuff. For example he promoted slavery and enjoying the status quo. There is also quite a few accounts of his behaviour not included in the standard canonical version of the New Testaments that paint Jesus in a very different light. My Gnostic Apocrypha is a little rusty so I can't recall the book, but in it Jesus is shown to be given to petty revenge, blinding a group of men for giving him wrong directions and then guided them of a cliff.

But I guess those books are largely irrelevant if one chooses to take the tale of Jesus as a mere moral story... the canonical texts reveal the perversion that is the basis of even the story of Jesus. God created the world, animals, plants, fish and twinkies - everything, including sin. If not sin, then the conditions that allow for sin. Since he knows all, he knows that the Humans he is about to create will not measure up to his standards and as a consequence the majority of them will burn forever in place he created to punish the wicked - but he creates humans anyways. 4000 odd years pass and he decides to make it a little easier for these humans to make it into heaven, so he sends a man/son of a god/God made flesh is sent to Earth to die a horrific death at the age of 33 to save us from a situation he created in the first place. While he (Jesus) is down here he tells us to be good to each other, to enjoy being a slave, to feel ashamed of our god-given lusts, to dominate women, to look down on the unbelievers, to avoid learning anything new beyond worshiping God.

So there you go... should we do Muhammad next? At least he wasn't a 33 old virgin (well Jesus was actually getting some Mary booty according to some of the Gnostic Apocrypha) and didn't get nailed to a tree to save us from God. Though he did get it on with a 9 year old. :smileroll

[David19]

Jesus = a figment of Paul's (or someone's) imagination. While there are good moral lessons in the literature of Jesus, there is also a lot of not so nice stuff. For example he promoted slavery and enjoying the status quo. There is also quite a few accounts of his behaviour not included in the standard canonical version of the New Testaments that paint Jesus in a very different light. My Gnostic Apocrypha is a little rusty so I can't recall the book, but in it Jesus is shown to be given to petty revenge, blinding a group of men for giving him wrong directions and then guided them of a cliff.

But I guess those books are largely irrelevant if one chooses to take the tale of Jesus as a mere moral story... the canonical texts reveal the perversion that is the basis of even the story of Jesus. God created the world, animals, plants, fish and twinkies - everything, including sin. If not sin, then the conditions that allow for sin. Since he knows all, he knows that the Humans he is about to create will not measure up to his standards and as a consequence the majority of them will burn forever in place he created to punish the wicked - but he creates humans anyways. 4000 odd years pass and he decides to make it a little easier for these humans to make it into heaven, so he sends a man/son of a god/God made flesh is sent to Earth to die a horrific death at the age of 33 to save us from a situation he created in the first place. While he (Jesus) is down here he tells us to be good to each other, to enjoy being a slave, to feel ashamed of our god-given lusts, to dominate women, to look down on the unbelievers, to avoid learning anything new beyond worshiping God.

So there you go... should we do Muhammad next? At least he wasn't a 33 old virgin (well Jesus was actually getting some Mary booty according to some of the Gnostic Apocrypha) and didn't get nailed to a tree to save us from God. Though he did get it on with a 9 year old. :smileroll

Muhammad was married, so are you sure he was a virgin?.

Plus, in ancient times "virgin" didn't mean the same thing as in our modern western world.

[Infinite Grey]

Muhammad was married, so are you sure he was a virgin?.

Plus, in ancient times "virgin" didn't mean the same thing as in our modern western world.

I said at least he wasn't a virgin ;)

[David19]

I said at least he wasn't a virgin ;)

Ok, got you, I guess that'll teach me to read more carefully (actually, it won't as I have a very short attention span ;)).

But, there's some evidence that suggests Jesus wasn't a virgin either, and I don't just mean his relationship with Mary Magdaline, in the Secret Gospel of Mark, it's hinted that Jesus slept with a young, naked man (I'd love Fred Phelps and Bush to hear that!).

[Shatril]

I don't believe he was divine, simply a Jewish martyr.

I also don't find his teachings anything special. The same teachings can be found throughout many religions and philosophies, even those that predate his supposed existence.

That is an astute observation that you can find the same philosophies in other teachings. It sort of points out the fact that maybe, just maybe, the same energy is at work in ALL religions. A good teaching is a good teaching regardless of the professed faith of the teacher. I listen to them all. I think that Jesus must have had some good teachers in his time, and I'm sure that he added his own wisdom to these teachings as he passed them down.

Shatril

[David19]

To me, I do think there was an historical Jesus, who may have had mystical powers, but I also think of him more as a Jewish social revolutionary. It's interesting, 'cause if you read a lot of the things he said or some Gnostic gospels and writings, it shows that Jesus wanted his followers to realise they had the power in them to do even greater miracles than himself (I haven't read the Bible, but isn't there one bit where he tells one follower that when he has faith, he'll be able to walk on the waters and do even greater miracles than Jesus?).

[LostSheep]

That is an astute observation that you can find the same philosophies in other teachings. It sort of points out the fact that maybe, just maybe, the same energy is at work in ALL religions. A good teaching is a good teaching regardless of the professed faith of the teacher. I listen to them all. I think that Jesus must have had some good teachers in his time, and I'm sure that he added his own wisdom to these teachings as he passed them down.

Shatril

Thats' what i think; maybe it's not that one just borrows ideas fr0m another, perhaps what Jesus really wanted was to promote the idea of there being universal energies, or whatever term you want to give it, and that's why he was seen as a threat by the established hierarchy - that he was telling people that they didn't really need them.

[plumedsnake]

That is an astute observation that you can find the same philosophies in other teachings. It sort of points out the fact that maybe, just maybe, the same energy is at work in ALL religions. A good teaching is a good teaching regardless of the professed faith of the teacher. I listen to them all.

This is where I've found myself coming to loggerheads with many hard polytheists. If the English have a geographical feature called Hills and the French have a geographical feature called Les Collines which sound incredibly like what the English call Hills then I am prone to think that Colline is just the French term for Hill.
We all live in the same world (I hope), and we all have variations of the experience of being human, so I expect that our descriptions of the universes energies will be quite similar. And if the Gods are said to control these energies, or even to be personifications of these energies then I kinda expect all gods to be one, not parcelled off into various pantheonic realms.
Not only is the same energy at work in all Religions, but there is only actually ONE Religion, and all the apparent variety of religions are caused by variations in terminology, and politics. The more one understands how religion works the more obvious it becomes that all religion is based on the same principles. Just like All science is based on the same principles. No one in their right mind can say this is my physics and that is your physics and they are different physics. Or the gravity that pulls me to earth is different from that which pulls you. Religion is based on reality, as physics is too, so ultimately there is only one religion.

[plumedsnake]

I would like to propose an interpretation of the stilling the seas episode in the gospel. Mind you, I say propose an interpretation, not the interpretation. In many myths the seas can be said to represent the unconscious forces of the mind. These elemental forces can be quite unruly for those who haven't mastered them. When they rage we feel that we are not in control of our lives or even of our minds.
One night while the disciples were being tossed from on side to the other by these natural forces, As they tried to exercise some sort of control over the waves, as they struggled desperately, yet hopelessly to steer their course through it, they turned around to discover Christ Asleep in the hull.
'We're going to die and you're is sleeping', they cried to him. He woke up and said to the winds," Peace, Be Still". And just like that peace was restored.
When you find yourself in turmoil and agitation, and everything is upside down, if you can awakening the Sleeping Christ whose command becomes immediate fact he will still those waves and bring peace into your life. Amen.

[plumedsnake]

You are dressing up UPG and your own ideas/beliefs as fact.

Religion and beliefs are more or less subjective while science is grounded on objective principles. Religion can hardly be subject to the scientific method as Gods, spirits, prayer, revelation, personal experiences, etc. are difficult if not impossible to be scientifically observed.

I don't know who or what UPG is/are. I'm not dressing up anything. However, yes, I am presenting it as fact. And I am happy for you to question and test my assertions.

And while on the subject of questioning and testing, this is what happens in science is it not? A belief that is not grounded on objective principles is simply a fallacy. There are many beliefs like this and it is not limited to the sphere of religion. Even science has them. When they are proved wrong, they should be and are discarded unless the 'scientist'/'religionist' has a vested interest in continuing to promote them.

I would imagine that a lot of what you call subjective religion I wouldn't actually call religion at all. I have noted the propensity for fantasy that many people share and even here on mysticwicks where people talk about still working out their religion as if it is something that they can just make up.
I started a thread a while ago on what was religion but it fizzled out. It's here: http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=140186&

For me the effects of religion can be empirically observed. I observe it all the time. revelations become manifestations and that for me is as good as any scientific method. The point being that prognosis's can be made. As with science if you make a prognosis and it doesn't happen then there is something wrong or false. Spirit possession is an observable fact. There are drastic physiological changes in the body when this happens as well as psychological changes. The power of Prayer is something that I can attest to too, but of course you are free to dismiss the results as coincidence. And while divinity is a personal experience a change is observed by everyone who sees the person touched by the divine. Again how they choose to interprete what they observe is up to them.

[David19]

I don't know who or what UPG is/are. I'm not dressing up anything. However, yes, I am presenting it as fact. And I am happy for you to question and test my assertions.

UPG stands for Unverified personal gnosis, it's basically the personal spiritual insights that are relevant for one person (or possibly a group, although I think that's called Shared Personal Gnosis), without being a truth for everyone.

Here's an article on it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unverified_personal_gnosis.

Here's another one by Carol Robe on UPG, http://www.land-of-confusion.org/carol-upg.htm.

Basically, if you worshipped Aphrodite and your personal gnosis said she like chocolate, yet there's no record of chocolate being used in her worship, then that'd be Personal Gnosis - a truth for you, but not everyone.

IMO, it's how myths get made, eventually UPG will turn into shared personal Gnosis, then it will become a myth (e.g. if you were in a group, and your gnosis pointed out that Aphrodite had diposed Zeus as ruler of the Olympians and now rules it, then that could become a myth, etc).



I would imagine that a lot of what you call subjective religion I wouldn't actually call religion at all. I have noted the propensity for fantasy that many people share and even here on mysticwicks where people talk about still working out their religion as if it is something that they can just make up.

Who says that fantasy can't become mythic and therefore be a religion for somebody, afterall, it can be argued that the ancient myths of gods, fairies, demons, magic, etc were the ancient version of "fantasy".

Personally, I believe divinity comes to people in different ways, and that perhaps new gods can reveal themselves through fantasy (whether in novels or the TV).

[Amythyst]

What do you think of Jesus Christ?...


Nice guy, the original flower child, he just got in with a bad crowd.

[plumedsnake]

Thanks David19. I would never have guessed what UPG is. I thought it was some kind of cult. I guessed the Universal part right but then got stuck with the pg part.

I see what you mean about the personal fantasy thing but you must also be aware that we also fantasise a lot of nonsense. If I got a revelation that I could fly and then jumped out the window only to create a morbid mess on the pavement below then my revelation was just plain wrong.

And that is where I find a distinction between my understanding of religion and that of others that I've read. For me it is a very practical affair, so it is either going to work and I will see the result or it will not. My religious practice usually begins with a very practical/material problem that I face. Over the course of the practice the problem is solved and that is that.
I'm not into dressing up and getting all ceremonial and fantastical to satisfy my need for pomposity or ceremony. I'm a very bricks-and-mortar kinda person when it comes to religion and dieties. I find life far too interesting to need to make up more stuff to entertain myself.

I would also differ with you as to how the upg becomes myth because from what I can tell myths are hard wired in the minds of people and in the universe. The same myths occur all around the world in varying guises. They also occur to individuals as dreams. I think it was Jung (or Freud) who said that Dreams are the myths of an individual and Myths are the dreams of a collective. From what I can tell, myths arise of their own accord and appear to have a dynamic all of their own.
Further more if in working with Aphrodite I decide to offer her chocolate, whether she accepted the chocolate or no would become plainly evident in the result of the project i was asking her for help in.

Religious rituals have specific goals they are directed at. Check out this post: http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2973956&postcount=27
And also this post:http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2973957&postcount=28

Plato gives us about as close as we are ever going to get to an eyewitness account of how the ancient Greeks actually practiced their religion. What makes his accounts more interesting is that he also attempts to analyses how the process works.

[blackroseivy]

What do you think of Jesus Christ?...


Nice guy, the original flower child, he just got in with a bad crowd.

It is SO funny that you say this - I keep thinking of him as a very John Lennon-like hippie (ok, how sacrilegious was THAT now?!)... Chewin' that dingo-weed in the desert...

I believe that he was a LOT more ordinary than the religion that grew up around his life could possibly admit. I think that King Arthur is remarkably like him in MANY ways, INCLUDING how the story came about.

[blackroseivy]

I think it was Jung (or Freud) who said that Dreams are the myths of an individual and Myths are the dreams of a collective...

That would have been Jung, PS... (I'd LOVE to see Freud giving voice to a thought like that!!) :smileroll

[David19]

That would have been Jung, PS... (I'd LOVE to see Freud giving voice to a thought like that!!) :smileroll


I would also differ with you as to how the upg becomes myth because from what I can tell myths are hard wired in the minds of people and in the universe. The same myths occur all around the world in varying guises. They also occur to individuals as dreams. I think it was Jung (or Freud) who said that Dreams are the myths of an individual and Myths are the dreams of a collective. From what I can tell, myths arise of their own accord and appear to have a dynamic all of their own.


I'm not sure, but I think it might have been Joseph Campbell who said 'myths are the dreams of the collective, dreams are the myths of the individual'.

But, I know Campbell was influenced a lot by Jung, so maybe they both said it or something?.

[Twinkle]

You are dressing up UPG and your own ideas/beliefs as fact.

Religion and beliefs are more or less subjective while science is grounded on objective principles. Religion can hardly be subject to the scientific method as Gods, spirits, prayer, revelation, personal experiences, etc. are difficult if not impossible to be scientifically observed.


I would agree with dressing up the UPG...but I tend to disagree with you regarding religion and science lining up.

I won't speak for all Hellenic Reconstructionists...but I would venture to say that most of what we reason to be true we test up against what we know of science...keeping in mind that we are limited by what we know theoretically and technologically at this period of time.

Most of the time, what we reason to be true is scientifcally plausible, or actually proven by science.

[plumedsnake]

I would agree with dressing up the UPG...but I tend to disagree with you regarding religion and science lining up.

The way I've been dressing up this UPG, in your opinions, it ought to be looking quite dandy by now. What is so unverified or unverifiable about what I mentioned. Comparisons are made, analogies are observed, truths are unfolded. No madame, UPG is stripped bare and awaiting you in the boudoir, ready and set to fulfill your utmost desires. I personally have no interest in unverifiable experiences and leave you to it.




I won't speak for all Hellenic Reconstructionists...but I would venture to say that most of what we reason to be true we test up against what we know of science...keeping in mind that we are limited by what we know theoretically and technologically at this period of time.

Most of the time, what we reason to be true is scientifcally plausible, or actually proven by science.

I did go to the great trouble of presenting works of Platon as they related to hellenic religion. Considering that the works of Platon are one of the few that exist of someone who was actually an eyewitness to the practice of hellenic religions it does leave me rather astounded that no reconstructionist has taken any interest in what I presented (though I've tried to discuss it with many). It does leave me stroking my chin somewhat, and going,' hmmm'. The pleasures of unverifiable Gnosis are obviously much more preferable.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

I would agree with dressing up the UPG...but I tend to disagree with you regarding religion and science lining up.

I believe religion and science do line up. We already have people here quoting Jung, who was a psychologist. Psychology is a science. I have had an out of body experience. Was it magick or simply a product of the mind? Hmm, people in surgery have oobes, as do kids in the midst of molestation. Sounds fairly probable to me that oobes are simply a function of the mind.

We have people in this thread noting the similarities of myth all across the world. We humans are curious and at some point, it seems every society has asked, "how did everything come into existence?" So every society has creation myths as a result of human curiosity and the human need to understand/explain things.

How many movies have a hero story line? Some man, often weak or maybe powerless, rises up to some threat to all of existence, and saves the world. Isn't this Jesus' story? It's the same plot line for numerous movies, although the details of each story may differ.

To white people who pray to Jesus, he appears as a blue-eyed blonde, much like the pictures of Jesus the Christains have seen. To black people who pray to Jesus, he appears as a black man. Is this coincidence? Or does psychology explain it, ie, our mind creates our reality based on our expectations? The same is true of a woman who goes from man to man, everyone of which are abusive to her. Coincidence? Or does the fact such a woman was abused by her father and she believes all men to be abusive cause her to always seek out and find men who are in fact abusive?

Myths are dream symbols. Dreams come from the subconscious. If a relative dies and, after the funeral, I dream the relative is walking past my bed, is it coincidence? Did the dead relative survive death and still live, or is my dream the method my subconscious is using to help me deal with the fact of the relative's death?

Early in the book "Prometheus Rising,' the author discusses a way to test oneself, by thoroughly convincing oneself that everywhere you go you will find quarters. Is it coincidence when it works? Or did the ritual cause you to pay more attention to the ground and look at the ground when you are out walking, so that you would actually begin to notice how many quarters are strewn around?

Ultimately, I think psychology will explain the importance of myth and the answers will be found in the nature of the subconscious and how it works.

[David19]

I believe religion and science do line up. We already have people here quoting Jung, who was a psychologist. Psychology is a science. I have had an out of body experience. Was it magick or simply a product of the mind? Hmm, people in surgery have oobes, as do kids in the midst of molestation. Sounds fairly probable to me that oobes are simply a function of the mind.

We have people in this thread noting the similarities of myth all across the world. We humans are curious and at some point, it seems every society has asked, "how did everything come into existence?" So every society has creation myths as a result of human curiosity and the human need to understand/explain things.

How many movies have a hero story line? Some man, often weak or maybe powerless, rises up to some threat to all of existence, and saves the world. Isn't this Jesus' story? It's the same plot line for numerous movies, although the details of each story may differ.

To white people who pray to Jesus, he appears as a blue-eyed blonde, much like the pictures of Jesus the Christains have seen. To black people who pray to Jesus, he appears as a black man. Is this coincidence? Or does psychology explain it, ie, our mind creates our reality based on our expectations? The same is true of a woman who goes from man to man, everyone of which are abusive to her. Coincidence? Or does the fact such a woman was abused by her father and she believes all men to be abusive cause her to always seek out and find men who are in fact abusive?

Myths are dream symbols. Dreams come from the subconscious. If a relative dies and, after the funeral, I dream the relative is walking past my bed, is it coincidence? Did the dead relative survive death and still live, or is my dream the method my subconscious is using to help me deal with the fact of the relative's death?

Early in the book "Prometheus Rising,' the author discusses a way to test oneself, by thoroughly convincing oneself that everywhere you go you will find quarters. Is it coincidence when it works? Or did the ritual cause you to pay more attention to the ground and look at the ground when you are out walking, so that you would actually begin to notice how many quarters are strewn around?

Ultimately, I think psychology will explain the importance of myth and the answers will be found in the nature of the subconscious and how it works.

First, I just have to say I've got Prometheus Rising as a PDF, and really like what I'm reading, but I think I do have to disagree that OOBEs/astral projection is just psychological, I think your soul/spirit/conciousness/whateverl does leave your body.

I do think myths are related to dreams, but I don't believe they just come from the subconscious, I think when humans develop myths, the inspiration, the thing that makes it true, comes from that divine spark within all humans.

I also don't think science and religion match up that well (I know some people that say the ancient Greek myth of the universe coming out of the egg is a mythic way of explaining the big bang, but personally, I think if you look for anything hard enough, you'll find proof (e.g. the Christians who'll look for and "find proof" that Revelations prophecy from the Bible is happening today, etc).

But I do really like your post.

BTW, I hope this made some sense, as right now, I am quite tipsy/drunk as I've just returned from a night out from a club in central London.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

First, I just have to say I've got Prometheus Rising as a PDF, and really like what I'm reading,

I just got my copy back from a friend who had it on loan. I am thinking it might be time to read it again.



but I think I do have to disagree that OOBEs/astral projection is just psychological,

I am still a bit undecided on this one. It certainly appears that I have left my body when it is occurring. However, the astral itself appears very dream-like to me, which leaves me wondering if it is in fact related to the dream state.



I do think myths are related to dreams, but I don't believe they just come from the subconscious, I think when humans develop myths, the inspiration, the thing that makes it true, comes from that divine spark within all humans.

I follow a psychological model, so everything I say is heavily biased from that standpoint. Looking back, I am not sure I can say I have ever believed there was any 'divine spark' within me. It's not surprising considering the majority of my work here so far has primarily involved clearing myself of really old garbage. (Which is not to say I am finished with that yet!)



I also don't think science and religion match up that well

I am not that sure they do either. The common threads I find everywhere lead me to believe they eventually will. Of course every bit of that also springs from my own biases.



(I know some people that say the ancient Greek myth of the universe coming out of the egg is a mythic way of explaining the big bang, but personally, I think if you look for anything hard enough, you'll find proof (e.g. the Christians who'll look for and "find proof" that Revelations prophecy from the Bible is happening today, etc).


I couldn't make such leaps either.



But I do really like your post.

I am glad you did. I feel sometimes like I do ramble on so.



BTW, I hope this made some sense, as right now, I am quite tipsy/drunk as I've just returned from a night out from a club in central London.

If you hadn't told me I would never have known the difference. You Brits and your pubs!

[Modesty]

I believe if Jesus existed, then he was a good man and nothing more. In those days he might have been considered to perform miracles and such, but in this day and age, if he were to perform those same things, even the people of the churches would pronounce him a raving lunatic and have him thrown in an insane asylum. The churches would view his miracles as witchcraft. We've come so far with our technology and science has proven so much in the years since Jesus, that they would not think of any of his miracles as "miracles". he would be like the crazy guys we sometimes see out on the street corners yelling out bible verses and preaching about coming events.


So, what do you think of Jesus ? His teachings, his influence, significance, and so forth. How do you see him ?

For the sake of this discussion, please focus on Jesus himself. Not Christians, specific denominations or churches.

What of hs miracles ?

[Cloaked Raven]

To me, Christ was a great guy. I always thought of Him as a gentle, loving soul.

[BearDancing]

I beleive that Jesus was a human like you and I....I beleive he mastered what it is we are all capable of... I believe he was one of few that were masters here on Earth to show us what we are "ALL" capable of, with a connection/direction from God/Godess....Great Spirit...what ever we choose to lable this entity....I beleive he is an Ascended Master now....with many....and is available through prayer/meditation whichever method you use....to help and guide us in a more divine/enlightened/higher level of concoiousness...towards our Soource....I have chosesn Jesus as my mentor.....yet there are many masters to choose from....to help us experience Love with all of its incredible possibilites