The history of Theban script

[Apple]

I have one of those small posters by Amber K that charts Theban script and says it is the alphabet of Witches. It says the origins of the letters are lost in "the mists of antiquity". I've seen the alphabet published in other sources such as Silver Ravenwolf books, Z. Budapest's "Holy Book of Women's Mysteries", and I think in a Scott Cunningham book. Each vary slightly and none specify details about it origins or use in the past. SRW did say that the language was lost and the alphabet was all people knew anymore.

Anyone have clues?

[Fawn]

Can't help with any clues on the history of this script but I do use it but only when I want to intial something its pretty yes, but have you ever written anything that has alot of letters in it? (This isn't the one to use for me)

[Apple]

Actually, I have. I write full journal entries. Ok, well... my ideas get shorter and shorter to save me writing time. It takes a lot of effort... but I've gotten my personal flair for it now, so it runs a bit more casually like regular writing. That quickens it up. If I want it to be really fancy for a title page or something I have a cutsey lil' decorating system with it. I also made some name abreviations, sort of like name symbols to use as shorthand. That works. (hee hee)

[Shy Hawk]

I don't know about history, actually I was wondering this myself. I just don't know. I am trying to learn it. But I would like to know why it was used in the first place, and when, by who....more if possible.
Shy Hawk

[Vinga]

Did a search and found this:

The first published reference to it is in Francis Barrett's The Magus, published at London in 1801. It is reputed to have been invented by Honorius of Thebes, but there is no credible supporting evidence to this fact. Its usage by Traditional Wiccans is based on its usage by the founder of modern Wicca, Gerald Gardner.

[Naillosotarrain]

As for the history of Theban Script, I'm not entirely sure seeing as this is the first I've heard of it. But hang in there, I'm not entirely without my resources. Theban... Think about it for a minute. Does it not sound like something from the Isle of Thebes? Speaking of which, whatever happened to the people of Thebes, the "Thebans"?

[Naillosotarrain]

Hmmm. I seem to be mistaken. Thebes wasn't an island but rather a city in Ancient Greece, and in Ancient Egypt. Some believe that the Theban Script originated in Egypt's Thebes. Upon looking closely at the script I have uncovered something. It is very similar if not identical to a script I have seen before; and if such is the case, then it would explain why no one has been able to trace down its origin. Which would be the same reason no one has ben able to trace down part of my family history past my great grandfather and great grandmother. It's as if they spontaneously appeared, for there is no record whatsoever of any one in that part of my family before them. Now, I know the reason why no one has ever been able to track down my family history on that side of my family, for I have actually done so, though it was not an easy feat. I also believe that this is the same reason why no one has been able to trace down the origin of the Theban Script. My question to you is this, can you tell me the reason why no one has been able to trace down the origin of my family or of the Theban Script?

[Emy]

Well I don't know much about the origins of theban, however I use both theban and seax for magical writing... mostly seax actually =)

I think seax has its origins in the scandinavian runes, but I am not 100% certain...


B*B

[Apple]

Yuck! You mean to say that Theban may have roots in Ceremonial Magic? Sorry if I offend anyone, but that's not my thing. Here I thought I had found some pretty lettering that might not somehow be connected to that stuff. Tough luck, ne?

[Fawn]

Yes actually it did and it is believed to be the "losdt" writing of the world of Altantis. Isn't that neat?
I could not do a whole page in it--it starts looking about the same after awhile to me. (sorry but it does) I do like the seax though and I also use the "witches writing" simple and basic pictures.

[Naillosotarrain]

Lost writing from the world of Atlantis??? No, that is not the origin of the "Theban Script". In order to find the answer to this question, you will need to look somewhere no human has looked before. For the answer you seek, you will need to look for it in a whole new way. You must think of the world as it used to be, not as it is today. For the answer in which you seek does not lie in the pages of history. Here is a hint, the true origin of the "Theban Script" is older than the first human.

[Fawn]

8O Cute but if that was true then who would have invented it???
Yes I stand by source she is rather well known (Doreen Valetine) and I have seen it in other works by other authors also.
Besides if "humans " did not invent it then how would we ever learn to intpret it? ;)

[Naillosotarrain]

As I said, you have to think of the world as it was and not as it is today. Start looking into it metaphysically, not physically.

[Kaylara]

Apple~
Why the concern over Ceremonial Magick?
Most of the tools, practices, etc. in use today come from ceremonial magick... Aliester Crowley and Gerald Gardner were very good friends, and Gerald took a huge amount of the Golden Dawn magickal practices and incorporated it into his new religion. There is very little that you can do or use with out understanding those same concepts that Ceremonial Magick follows. There is also very very little you can do if you want to avoid using anything connected with Ceremonial Magick.

Blessings,
Kaylara

[Krom]

Originally posted by Kaylara
Apple~
Why the concern over Ceremonial Magick?
Most of the tools, practices, etc. in use today come from ceremonial magick... Aliester Crowley and Gerald Gardner were very good friends, and Gerald took a huge amount of the Golden Dawn magickal practices and incorporated it into his new religion.
Blessings,
Kaylara

Actually I believe that they only met one another a few times ( I believe it was 3 times in total). He first met Crowley a year before he died. That was 1946 and Crowley died in 1947. Not a long time to build a friendship. They were not good friends. They were acquaintances and not very good ones. Aliester Crowley, at the time Gardner met him, had nothing to do with the Golden Dawn. He had published the Golden Dawns material during the years of 1909-1913. They were available to anyone by the time Gardner had returned from the Far East.

Blessings
Krom

[Spirahl]

Originally posted by Kaylara
There is very little that you can do or use with out understanding those same concepts that Ceremonial Magick follows. There is also very very little you can do if you want to avoid using anything connected with Ceremonial Magick.



I think very many traditional and GreenWitches would disagree with you on this point.
There was much that could be done, and was done, before the development of Wicca. Wicca incorporated the Ceremonial with folk magic. But there is much that you can do with folk magic alone. Just clarifying, not meaning to get OT here.

In my GreenWitchy way, I have made my on alphabet that I use to keep things from prying eyes, and also because using it makes me concentrate more, therefore putting more energy/ power into what I'm doing.
Kids naturally do this too! I remember making secret alphabets with close friends so we could pass notes in class and not have others understand them!:)

[Alex]

"Yuck! You mean to say that Theban may have roots in Ceremonial Magic? Sorry if I offend anyone, but that's not my thing. Here I thought I had found some pretty lettering that might not somehow be connected to that stuff. Tough luck, ne?"

Actually, Apple, that is quite offensive. I could really care less if Ceremonial Magick is your "thing", but to use the mild expletive "yuck" as a reaction to it is, IMHO, disrespectful to a great many talented and devoted practitioners of the Magickal Arts.

Many elements of Wicca come directly from CM. Gerald B. Gardner was a student of many different kinds of Magick, including Solomonic, Golden Dawn, and OTO.

To respond to your earlier post:

"SRW did say that the language was lost and the alphabet was all people knew anymore. "

SRW is a moron, and this is further proof. Theban was never a language in and of itself. The Theban Alphabet, as far as anyone can tell, is a Magickal cypher. It differs from other Magickal cyphers only in that it corresponds to the Roman Alphabet rather than the Hebrew of Greek.

- Cheers

Alex

[Tarot Collector]

My understanding is that The Theban script is being used as a simple substitution cipher. In other words; "a" = {Theban Character 1} "b"= {Theban Character 2} etc...

Whatever the 'origin' of the Theban script we are merely writing in english, with english spelling, but subsituting characters.

Contrast this situation with Hebrew, or any written languages ancient or modern in which the characters represent sounds of a different spoken language for the most part.

If the Theban script is truely ancient, it would be more interesting to know what sounds the characters represent, what combinations of sounds made words, and what the words conveyed (or meant).

Never-the-less it is "magickal-looking" isn't it?

Something fun to do is to make your own magickal alphabet...
"a" = {a cresent} "b" = {an arrow with wings} etc...


-not an expert-
-Jesse-

[DocJunior25]

Originally posted by Naillosotarrain
As I said, you have to think of the world as it was and not as it is today. Start looking into it metaphysically, not physically.
I have a question are you Implying that it was the language of the gods and goddesses or am I being crazzy here

[aquinnah]

At the risk of appearing completely out of the loop, I must confess that in many years of practicing my eclectic, greenish, celtic-influenced path, I've never heard of Theban script. Can someone tell me where I might find a sample? And since widespread literacy was uncommon until recent times, isn't unlikely that your average village wise woman or healer wrote in any language?

[Dria El]

Here's a jpg I had sitting on my computer. I also have the font if you're interested.

[aquinnah]

Thanks Dria - now that I see it I know I have seen it before, I just didn't know the name for it. Blessings, Aquinnah

[Dria El]

Very welcome! Glad I could be of some help. :)

[Wyrdsister]

I actually voted "No, I don't use any scripts" in the poll, but that's not entirely accurate. I don't use any scripts religiously, at least, not yet. I see myself using Theban and Germanic runes.

Originally posted by Tarot Collector
My understanding is that The Theban script is being used as a simple substitution cipher. In other words; "a" = {Theban Character 1} "b"= {Theban Character 2} etc...

Whatever the 'origin' of the Theban script we are merely writing in english, with english spelling, but subsituting characters. Very good point, Jesse! ;)

Originally posted by Tarot Collector
Something fun to do is to make your own magickal alphabet...
"a" = {a cresent} "b" = {an arrow with wings} etc... This is so neat that you mention this! I used to make up my own alphabets when I was younger. I gave all the characters really complicated names, made-up words that I liked the sound of. :) :) Unfortunately, I think most of that stuff is long gone. *sigh*

Wyrdsister
needing to get in touch with her magickal self

[cyprian]

An older woman who practices magic gave me a copy of the theban script a few years ago and i wrote in my journal with it all the time. But it takes too long so i only use it when i have something that i dont want some one to read. I dont know where she got it but she writes with it in her book of shadows. I also saw the theban scrit in a book but it was called witches writing or something like that. But i had a really bad feeling about that book and i still to this day refuse to open it.

[Raindancer]

I'm sorry, but I feel sceptical of its antiquity as a script, and would like to see some ancient examples to prove me wrong. Knowing Gardner was involved makes me feel more so. Gardner said a lot of things were ancient, but saying it doesn't make it so.

I don't use a special script because I don't feel a need for it If I did want to keep something secret, I wouldn't use a script that anyone with a computer could access.

Still its kind of cool looking. It reminds me of Astrological symbols. Whether or not its ancient really isn't relevant. I'm not Wiccan because I wanted to play some kind of religio-historical re-enactment/Living History game, but because it was who I was. I'm not down on people who like to use it, its kind of cool and I might try it one day for fun, but for me its not terribly relevant.

Like the other day when a couple JWs came to the door and asked me if I believed in evoluton. It seems to be the standard philosophical foot in the door that these kinds of people use. I thought about that afresh, and immediately came to the realization that I really didn't care one way or another how any of this got here.

Its enough for me that it is here, I'm here, and I would like to leave something that my children and their children can appreciate and connect with. How it got here, while being an interesting area of study, I guess, really doesn't bother me, and it certainly doesn't make me want to swallow the bible and their theology.

Likewise, who cares if Theban is ancient or not? Use it if it floats your boat. Or make up your own magickal script. Whatever.... I think its a theatrical part of the Gardnerian CM secrecy thing, but thats just my opinion until someone finds some 3,000 year old samples. If anyone has pictures of any, I would LOVE to see them. Sorry if my comments offend anyone who swears by their antiquity, I just don't think so.

Blessings
Raindancer

[HerbGurl]

Originally posted by Naillosotarrain
Hmmm. I seem to be mistaken. Thebes wasn't an island but rather a city in Ancient Greece, and in Ancient Egypt. Some believe that the Theban Script originated in Egypt's Thebes. Upon looking closely at the script I have uncovered something. It is very similar if not identical to a script I have seen before; and if such is the case, then it would explain why no one has been able to trace down its origin. Which would be the same reason no one has ben able to trace down part of my family history past my great grandfather and great grandmother. It's as if they spontaneously appeared, for there is no record whatsoever of any one in that part of my family before them. Now, I know the reason why no one has ever been able to track down my family history on that side of my family, for I have actually done so, though it was not an easy feat. I also believe that this is the same reason why no one has been able to trace down the origin of the Theban Script. My question to you is this, can you tell me the reason why no one has been able to trace down the origin of my family or of the Theban Script?

I have seen the Theban Alphabet in SRW's books. When I looked up Thebes in the encyclopdia, there were two- the Egyptian Thebes and the Greek Thebes. Which one is the alphabet from?
Blessings,
HerbGurl

[Andromeda]

Originally posted by Tarot Collector


Something fun to do is to make your own magickal alphabet...
"a" = {a cresent} "b" = {an arrow with wings} etc...



A few years ago, I wrote out my own alphabet just for kicks.... I only copied it down once, but it stuck in my brain, I can read and write it just as I would english

[UnSolon]

Almost all of the writing I do for my journal, ceremonial, and BOS (if I can call it that) is done in Runes.

I have been useing, and writing almost exclusivly in runes for my journal and note taking for over a year, and can write and read it very well.

I have several books filled completly with just runes, and I have been studying them for awile, reading every book on them that I come across.

so I voted, "I use other script", havent used thebean before.

Peace

[xjsjaglvr]

I looked at the Theban Script samples and the first thing I noticed was the remarkable match (equivalents)to most letters in Modern English. English is rather a bastard language borrowing from numerous languauges but the letters are primarily from Latin sources(which are Greek and Hebrew supplied). It should be noted that the letters J, U, W, Y, Z were not added until after 1545. So this would have to mean that Theban with equivalents for those letters cannot be older than that. Then there is the matter of the letter X. It has long been known that the letter X is a useless letter. It is a duplicate sound maker, in fact 23 of the 26 letters in our alphabet are duplicators. What this means is that as languages go English is among the most inefficient. In fact it is the worst of all the known languages. Why?, well due to the bastadization I spoke of earlier. This would mean that Theban would be inefficient also, yet as the symbols which make it up do not appear in other alphabets it plainly is not a bastardized alphabet. The trade mark of nearly all alphabets is efficiency of use. All except ours and Theban. This leads me to believe that it was made up using modern English as a base. The other clue to this inefficiency, one which even our language doesn't use is the symbol to mark the end of a sentence, even our period is easier to use than the three symbols Theban uses. Speaking of puncuation, there is no comma, question mark, or other form of puncuation other than the sentence ender in the earliest forms of Theban.
In my opinion it is made up, and not well made up at that.
Jag

[Demeter]

Any real ancient script would have some letters for sounds English doesn't have, and English would have letters for sounds the ancient language didn't have, and either might have single letters where the other would have a diphthong, and so on. The further back you go, the more differences there are. (Ever tried transliterating something into Hebrew, Katakana or the Elder Futhark?) And every real ancient script has surviving texts in the language. How else would we know of the language, the letters, or what sounds they stood for?

Theban is merely a one-for-one substitution cipher for modern English, one which can be broken quite easily at that.

[Apple]

Hey, I've obviously been gone for a while... but I did read all of your answers. Thanks for all your opinions and info.

Just one quick bit to Kaylara and Alex if they ever get back and read this... about the ceremonial bit. Alex, sorry if I offended you. Didn't mean it as you took it. Please forgive?? And Kaylara, I'm aware that Wicca's magic is based on Gardner's (and others's.. that a word?) ceremonial Witchcraft ideas. However, I'm not Wiccan and don't practice anything at all like Wiccan magic. I'm more of the folk/green Witch, so I really do have a lot I can do magically without even having anything to do with ceremonial structures or ideas if I don't want to. :)

[Raevyn]

Ok I must confess, some posts here gave me a headache :D

As to Crowley and Gardner
http://www.paganspath.com/magik/wicca/wicca2.htm
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/g/gardner_gerald_b.html
http://www.geraldgardner.com/index/essays.shtml (off Gardner's own website)

Jag has made some excellent points IMHO (as always)

RainDancer - to some people, while the age of something doesn't prove it's validity, it is still important to some whether it is ancient or where it's origins are. It's not that "new" stuff isn't as valid, it's that some people like to know the difference. For instance, as someone who studies Kemeticism in conjunction with Wicca (among other things) I find the mixing of that ancient culture with modern beliefs to be quite fulfilling - at the same time, I like to know which are ancient, which have evidence and reveal the rituals and myths of the past, and which are modern. It seems to me that an ancient God might be most pleased by those who understand what s/he liked in his/her time of power, as well as now. I suppose the usefulness of that is a subject between me and my deities.

I've used Theban, dragon script, runes, and studied some of Egypt's hieroglyphics, along with other scripts or hieroglyphics, but don't use anything in particular most of the time. I might write out a spell in a relevant language though.

[Ben Gruagach]

There is an article about the history of the Theban Script on the web at
http://www.coven-of-cythrawl.com/Theban_script.htm

There are some other interesting occult scripts or alphabets shown (and TrueType freeware fonts for download) at http://www.geocities.com/nu_isis/fonts.html

Oh, and I also found an essay that discusses Aleister Crowley's influence on Gerald Gardner's first draft of his "book of shadows," which he called "Ye Bok of Ye Art Magical" at http://www.cyprian.org/Articles/CrowleyBAM0.html

People who are interested in learning more about the influences that lead to what we now know as Wicca should really read the current "classic" on the topic -- Ronald Hutton's "The Triumph of the Moon." He goes into a lot of detail about the history leading up to the emergence of Wicca, and Gardner's place in the whole thing.