Numinism, your thoughts?

[Agaliha]

I've come across Numinism in the past.

I didn't see anything wrong with it. It seems like I fine path for those who want to honor the Roman pantheon in a non-Religio Romana sort of way. Like anything it's not for everyone.

I don't know if it's claiming to be Reconstructionalist or better/more accurate than Religio Romana, but I was just curious how Recons see the path.

Here's the main site:
http://www.numinism.net/
("Basics" has most of the links)
It has many Neo-Pagan overtones, but personally I don't see anything wrong with that, following the path is a personal choice everyone is free to make.

I found this article:

De Numinibus by: M. Horatius Piscinus (http://web.archive.org/web/20041126111655/http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/numinism.php) (archived version)
Part of the conclusion says:


Numinism is a fallacious modern theory intended to discredit the religio romana as a form of primitive atavistic cult. Its purpose is to promote the religious views of its authors as somehow superior to that of the religio romana.


Which is why I was curious what those practicing Religo Romana thought about it.

[Fiamma]

I don't know enough about Roman religion to be sure, but there are some things that say to me that it might not be as historical as it claims to be. It looks like a very viable belief system for soft polytheists, or those who believe in separate gods, but the idea that all sun goids are one god, all earth goddesses are one goddess etc. It seems quite Joseph Campbell-Mega-Mythical to me.

One of the big questions comes from this page:

http://www.numinism.net/pakupaku/index.php?page=Whatisit


Numinists honor the twin forces of the universe, the yin and the yang, the male and the female, space and time, as the Great Mother and the Heavenly Father. Numinists strive to see divinity in all things and to honor divinity in its many and varied forms. We refer to the Great Mother as Pomona, who tends the fruitful Tree of Life, and to the Heavenly Father as Vertumnus, the god of the changing seasons.

This seems like a very archetypical way of thinking, and in reading over the couple of pages that consist the site, it seems that they mainly focus on these two deities/archetypes. Which is all well and good, but rather outside of my (limited) understanding of Roman religion.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of real information given, and if you click resources, it only takes you to a link to amazon, does not recommend any titles or authors.

If anyone else knows more about this and how/if it jives with the history, please share!


I've come across Numinism in the past.

I didn't see anything wrong with it. It seems like I fine path for those who want to honor the Roman pantheon in a non-Religio Romana sort of way. Like anything it's not for everyone.

I don't know if it's claiming to be Reconstructionalist or better/more accurate than Religio Romana, but I was just curious how Recons see the path.

Here's the main site:
http://www.numinism.net/
("Basics" has most of the links)
It has many Neo-Pagan overtones, but personally I don't see anything wrong with that, following the path is a personal choice everyone is free to make.

I found this article:

De Numinibus by: M. Horatius Piscinus (http://web.archive.org/web/20041126111655/http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/numinism.php) (archived version)
Part of the conclusion says:


Which is why I was curious what those practicing Religo Romana thought about it.

[Philosophia]

I just found a thread on it:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=82873

Also try this:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/numa/

[Agaliha]

One of the big questions comes from this page:
http://www.numinism.net/pakupaku/ind...?page=Whatisit (http://www.numinism.net/pakupaku/index.php?page=Whatisit)


Numinists honor the twin forces of the universe, the yin and the yang, the male and the female, space and time, as the Great Mother and the Heavenly Father. Numinists strive to see divinity in all things and to honor divinity in its many and varied forms. We refer to the Great Mother as Pomona, who tends the fruitful Tree of Life, and to the Heavenly Father as Vertumnus, the god of the changing seasons.



Yeah, that's why I mentioned the Neo-Pagan overtones.
They do list other dieties they that honor: http://www.numinism.net/pakupaku/index.php?page=Romangods
I believe the FAQ says you can honor which ever deities you wish, too.

Here's more on their thinking:

Who or what do Numinists worship?
Numinists believe in the Unity of All. Above all, or at the base of all, there is the ONE. However, since this ONE is beyond all expression in language IT is difficult for humans to comprehend. Therefore, we look to what we can understand. In this world, we see the myriad facets of the ONE at work. The presence of the ONE is felt as a mysterious and magical power called NUMEN. That is what Numinists worship; that mysterious, magical, spiritual power which is the ONE. To understand this power more easily, our ancestors personified it. So, the bottom line here is Numinists worship the personification of Numen in its many forms. These we refer to as Goddesses and Gods; divas and divos. You can call them by Roman names, Greek names, Norse names, Celtic names, Indian names, etc. the Numen remains the same.

I too am unsure if this one force is really comparable to the Roman concept of Numen.

The last part sounds soft polytheist, which as I said, doesn't really bother me...but it makes me wonder why you'd be calling them anything other than Roman names if you're claiming this is a Roman path? I don't see the point in using Indian, Greek, Norse or Celtic names... Unless they're just using the idea of Numen (would is numina more correct grammar?)as inspiration, without claiming it to have any historical linkage?

Oh wait, saw this in the FAQ:

Who or what are the "gods"?
Archetypal energy beings who exist within the collective unconsious realms of the universe and direct the daily workings of the universe. They can be experienced by the human mind and have appeared in the myths and dreams of every society on earth in different disguises and under different names.
http://www.geocities.com/numinism/q_n_a2.htm#q14


So that clears that up.

More about their practices and worship (http://www.numinism.net/pakupaku/index.php?page=Nuministworship).

I found this mentioned @ Sacred-Texts:

Orpheus (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/index.htm)
Myths of the World (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/index.htm)
by Padraic Colum (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/index.htm)
Illustrations by Boris Artzybasheff (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/index.htm)
[1930, copyright not renewed] (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/index.htm)



It is important to separate the Greek and Latin mythologies: Iuppiter, though akin to, is not the same as Zeus; Iuno is not the same as Hera. Minerva is not the same as Athena, Neptune is not the same as Poseidon. "The Romans worshipped not gods, not dei," writes Miss Jane Harrison, "but powers, numina":

These numina were only dim images of activities. They had no attributes, no life histories; in a word, no mythology. We must always remember that mythology, the making of images, is only one and, perhaps, not the greatest factor in religion. Because the Romans were not ikonists, it does not follow that they were a people less religious than the Greeks. The contrary is probably true. A vague something is more awe-inspiring than a known something. 13 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/omw07.htm#fn_12)
Latin (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/omw07.htm)


Hmmm.

Anyway, I don't have enough knowledge of Roman history or religion to make sense of their stance on things...

[Philosophia]

Bix posted this message in the Numinism thread (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=82873):

> I tried looking up more information about Numinism
on the web and there seems to be only the website that
you made available.
Yes it is the only site about Numinism.

> Is this a new movement?
Yes it is a new movement.

>Who actually founded this movement?
I am the author of the Numinism website. If you have
read the site, I hope you came away with the impression that
Numinism is not about a single person, but about the Numinist
community and our desire to be the family of the Divine Parents.
The hope is that Numinism will be governed by Divine
Parents, who represent the "group mind" of the community - and,
therefore, Numinism will have no leader, only facilitators or
moderators for particular activities (called Custodes). I did
initiate Numinism, but, as the process of developing practices
and building community is a group effort, I don't want to
refer to myself as the founder.

> What history is it based on?
The history of Numinisms founding is my personal
search for the most appropriate faith tradition to follow. The
basis of Numinism is the domestic religion of ancient Rome
reinterpreted for the modern world and with regard to contemporary
practices of similar faiths, including Hinduism, Shinto,
Neopaganism, etc.


> When was it founded?
The Numinism site has been online since 1997.

> The festivals on the website seem really close to
the
> Eight Wiccan Sabbats.
Numinism is Neopagan. It is not exactly Wicca and
it's not exactly Reconstructionism. The goal is to present a modern
Roman religion which is similar to how the religion would have
developed without the interference of Christianity. The reasons for
celebrating the same dates as Wicca is that it aligns Numinism with
other Neopagan groups (we have others to celebrate with), it makes
more sense to celebrate universally recognizable dates than to
follow the ancient Roman calendar which may not have relevance to modern practitioners, and it is important to honor the changing seasons as Vertumnus, the God of the Changing Seasons is the Father of the
Numinist Family.

> Is this movement an offshoot of Wicca?
You could see Numinism as an offshoot of Wicca if you
like. There are some similarities. The biggest difference is that
Numinism will focus more on spiritual practice and less on magick.

Take care!
Paul

[Agaliha]

I just found a thread on it:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=82873

Also try this:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/numa/

Thanks :)

The thread before wasn't really about the same question I was asking, but TYRRHENUS post did help clarify some things.



You can call me a Numinist if you like. I follow the Via Romana - the Roman Way, and Numinism is the Religio Romana Principalis - the first Roman religion.
Numinism is one of those uniquely Italic concepts which are simple enough to comprehend yet hard to explain. Much in the same manner that Charles Leland described his Italian witchcraft as "something more than a sorcery, and something less than a faith," I would say that a numen is more than a spirit but less than a god. If that makes any sense.
That geocities article is a curiosity in Roman Recon circles. No one can make sense of it really... Especially the Interlingua. :whatgives I suggest this excellent article (http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/numinism.php) by my fellow sodalis, Marcus Horatius Piscinus. The standard is still The Religion of Numa (http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/numa/) by Jesse Benedict Carter.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1579998&postcount=12


I'm still curious if http://www.numinism.net/ specifically fits with the idea of Numa and all that.

Especially after seeing the conclusion of that other article--

De Numinibus by: M. Horatius Piscinus (http://web.archive.org/web/20041126111655/http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/numinism.php)(archived version)
Part of the conclusion says:

Numinism is a fallacious modern theory intended to discredit the religio romana as a form of primitive atavistic cult. Its purpose is to promote the religious views of its authors as somehow superior to that of the religio romana.
I'm just confused _inabox_

[David19]

I'm not too sure abotu Numinism as I'm not a Roman recon, and I don't know too much about the Roman religion, but on this Nova Roma article on Gods (http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/deities.html), it says:


The concept of numen continued to exist and it was related to any manifestation of the divine. For the Romans, everything in Nature is thought to be inhabited by numina, which explains the big number of deities in the Roman pantheon

I'm not but maybe it's saying everything has a God in it, which is kind of what I believe (I may be totally wrong in interpreting this, though).

[Son of Goddess]

Being a Roman Recon myself I can tell you that Numinism is a modern Neo-Pagan religion that barely has any claims on Roman religion.

The only Roman references Numinism has is the domestic worship of the Lares, using Roman deity names, and Roman holiday names. Everything else is just your basic and standard Neo-Pagan and/or Neo-Wiccan stuff; 8 holidays, two central deities one being male and one female, etc...

In Roman Religion, the Gods are not archetypes but true celestial beings who create, control and maintain the world we live in.

In Roman Religion, Numina aren't exactly spirits, and they surely are not Gods. Numina are basically the essence of something. When you invoke the Gods, the deities being called upon send down numina to be present with the worshippers and also to collect the "energies" of the offerings, prayers, etc... These energies are then sent back to the Gods, whereas the numina remain where they were sent. Usually a Roman altar has something called a "palus stone" which is particularly used to collect the numina that were present.

Numina are kind of like the energy of something, for instance the act of giving birth is full of all kinds of numina that take part and create the operations. One numina causes the baby to scream, one makes the baby's bones grow, one helps the baby swallow milk, etc...

In my opinion, Numina are not spirits and are definitely not Gods. To me, they do not have thought processes but merely just act and do their thing at the appropriate times. Numina can be honored and prayed to in order to persuade them to perform their actions but they are solely capable of those actions alone and nothing more; unlike a deity such as Jupiter who is repsonsible for the sky, the weather, the law, the army, etc...

[C. Iulia Regilia]

Being a Roman Recon myself I can tell you that Numinism is a modern Neo-Pagan religion that barely has any claims on Roman religion.

The only Roman references Numinism has is the domestic worship of the Lares, using Roman deity names, and Roman holiday names. Everything else is just your basic and standard Neo-Pagan and/or Neo-Wiccan stuff; 8 holidays, two central deities one being male and one female, etc...

In Roman Religion, the Gods are not archetypes but true celestial beings who create, control and maintain the world we live in.

In Roman Religion, Numina aren't exactly spirits, and they surely are not Gods. Numina are basically the essence of something. When you invoke the Gods, the deities being called upon send down numina to be present with the worshippers and also to collect the "energies" of the offerings, prayers, etc... These energies are then sent back to the Gods, whereas the numina remain where they were sent. Usually a Roman altar has something called a "palus stone" which is particularly used to collect the numina that were present.

Numina are kind of like the energy of something, for instance the act of giving birth is full of all kinds of numina that take part and create the operations. One numina causes the baby to scream, one makes the baby's bones grow, one helps the baby swallow milk, etc...

In my opinion, Numina are not spirits and are definitely not Gods. To me, they do not have thought processes but merely just act and do their thing at the appropriate times. Numina can be honored and prayed to in order to persuade them to perform their actions but they are solely capable of those actions alone and nothing more; unlike a deity such as Jupiter who is repsonsible for the sky, the weather, the law, the army, etc...

I think they are spirits, probably closest to the Norse Vaeter (I hope I'm spelling that right). The idea is that they are the spirit of whatever land or water or place they inhabit, or the objects they are associated with. I think to suggest that they are not spirits at least to me tends to deny that they have a free will. I don't think they're just a blind force that make no decision. It's an agency of some sort.