ex-occultists who became christians?

[aluokaloo]

you know, I've been thinking lately, everytime we hear about some scared christian who used to be in the occult and is warning others of the so-called dangers of it, alot of us scoff right? and sure, I'm sure alot of those were scams, but some people do get into things by accident , things that i'm sure would frighten even the most experienced occultist? how do we know that back in the day some rebellious teen cast some spell, and ended up summoning a nasty entity that scared the holy crap outta them and they went running back, and decided that the occult was evil and dangerous because of a bad experience? like a child who got seriously mauled by a german shepherd and believed all their life that all german shepherds were dangerous. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge automatically.

[Lyrien]

Whenever I hear someone preaching against the influences of the occult and claim that they were saved from the pits of hell, I think of two reasons.

1. They fell hard core into the Christian beliefs and allowed someone to tell them the 'truth'.

2. They had a bad experience with the occult. (I don't like the use of that word in this discussion) ie: what you explained, or came in contact with one of those 'you must take your clothes off and have sex with me to join my group' kind of people. Or simply read one book and called themselves an expert.

Either way it seems that the individual is lost and in need of direction, but just happened to look in the wrong place. There is nothing, and yet something, wrong with either belief system (any belief system), but when you are unsure of yourself or your beliefs sometimes you'll take someone's word for truth and stop thinking for yourself.

[OnyxStar]

One of my friends was Wiccan for a year or so, and she was really talented (achieved astral projection in like, three months) but when her Mom got upset about it, she went back to Christianity. And now she's "praying for me". I don't understand how you can experience something this amazing and just turn your back on it.
So anyway, those people probably did NOT experience what the occult is all about, just mistakenly dropped in on an orgy.

[Sequoia]

Whenever I hear someone preaching against the influences of the occult and claim that they were saved from the pits of hell, I think of two reasons.

1. They fell hard core into the Christian beliefs and allowed someone to tell them the 'truth'.

2. They had a bad experience with the occult. (I don't like the use of that word in this discussion) ie: what you explained, or came in contact with one of those 'you must take your clothes off and have sex with me to join my group' kind of people. Or simply read one book and called themselves an expert.

Either way it seems that the individual is lost and in need of direction, but just happened to look in the wrong place. There is nothing, and yet something, wrong with either belief system (any belief system), but when you are unsure of yourself or your beliefs sometimes you'll take someone's word for truth and stop thinking for yourself.

That's pretty well said, although I'd like to re-emphasize that there's nothing wrong with Christianity itself, only with the actions of certain worshipers.

But yes, I'd tend to agree with you.

[Pagan Warrior]

Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge automatically.

I won't be so quick to judge them if they won't be so quick to judge me.

[Sequoia]

I won't be so quick to judge them if they won't be so quick to judge me.

Not ALL of them are out to get you, you know.

[Nox_Mortus]

for me it depends on a few things, some people are still claiming they where part of some satanic cult that murdered a bunch of people (yet they didn't go to the cops), no way in hell will I ever take those people seriously, but if it doesn't seem completely wacked out I will at least look into thier claims and consider it.

[aluokaloo]

interesting replies. :)

[Eldawyn]

I haven't personally met many (or any?) people that have had such bad experiences that they "switched back," but I think I would just assume that they didn't find what they were looking for and that Christianity (or whatever religion) offered them something that they needed more.

[Crysiira]

This really puts me in mind of an article I read, it must have been years ago. I was skimming around on the internet when I found a site warning against Paganism.... written by an ex-Wiccan-High-Priest.

I was quite shocked... I mean, in a way, I can't imagine anyone who has spent time exploring Paganism to ever go back to Christianity. But as Eldawyn just said, if it offers them something they need more or like better, then that is their choice. Still... a High Priest? Wow. I guess even clergy can lose their faith and look for something else though. What really shocked me was not so much the switch from one religion to another. It was the way this person just absolutely put down his old religion in every way. Saying it was a big mistake, and he knows that Pagans may think that as long as they're trying to live their lives well they'll go to heaven no matter what they believe in, but they're absolutely wrong and unless they realize this and come to God they'll go to hell whether they believe in hell or not, so on and so forth.

In a way, though, when I think about it, it's not much different than a former Christian who becomes a Pagan and then spends the next few years bashing Christians because they feel resentful towards their old religion. I did it a little myself when I first changed paths. I've learned not to. In a way, this guy is doing the same thing, only he's bashing Pagans instead, and me as a Pagan can barely comprehend this.

I wish I could find that article again so I could link it, but I'm coming up with nothing. Still, though, this makes me realize that not all the instances in which we hear of former Pagans who become Christians are fakes/scams, or even scared kids running back to Christianity after having a bad experience. Sometimes... people just change their minds.

[Djiril]

So anyway, those people probably did NOT experience what the occult is all about, just mistakenly dropped in on an orgy.

Or a Star Wars role-playing session. ;)


As a real witch, I learned about the two sides of "the force." Apparently, so do many "Christian" leaders. When real witches have sabats and esbats and meet as a coven, they greet each other by saying "Blessed be", and when they part, they say "The Force be with you." Both sides of this "Force" are Satan. It is not a good side of the force that overcomes the bad side of the force, but rather it’s the blood of Jesus Christ that destroys both supposed sides of the satanic "Force."
http://www.thunderministries.com/cults/Wiccan.html

[Crysiira]

Or a Star Wars role-playing session. ;)


http://www.thunderministries.com/cults/Wiccan.html


WHAT??????!!!!!!!!

This is the most ridiculous article. Thanks for sharing. It's kind of frightening and funny at the same time. Frightening because people actually do think this way...

[Nocturna]

I think there's some validity to most of what other people have said here. Some people have nasty experiences. Some people just make choices that are bad for them then change their minds.

Problem is that so many of the stories I see have things in them that make me skeptical that the person is being honest. Not all but the majority. Some are the overblown "I murdered a Christian baby every week for a year before I repented" type stories that I don't see how anyone can believe them.

But sometimes even the more subdued stories like the one Crysiira mentioned make me pause because of the way they frame things. When someone who is supposedly an ex-Wiccan High Priest or Priestess makes statements like "they think they'll go to heaven, but they won't" or "they think their witchcraft is acceptable to God but according to Leviticus..." it kind of turns on my b.s. meter. To characterize Wiccan beliefs in those terms makes me think that either:

A) they're writing to impress other Christians and aren't even trying to reach the Pagans the article supposedly targets or

B) they're lying about their background. They've read up on Wicca enough to know something, but they don't know how to describe it without using a Christian framework.

[Zephyrstorm]

There are a lot of good responses here. I've had some wonderful friendships with Christians, who are perfectly comfortable with my beliefs, and who enjoy a bit of theological sparring on occasion.

These sorts of moments are no different than those Christians who have a bad experience at A church of B denomination and decide that all of that denomination must be like that particular church.

I think that the pundits who make it large in certain circles of the Christian media are more prone to find the ones who are lying, simply because the ones who tell stories like the example above make better press. And if the lies make any of them feel a little bad, then they have built in excuses that allow them to feel like they aren't doing anything too bad - maybe even doing a bit of bad in order to prevent a greater evil. bah.

It's scummy, but its just a fact of life - part of the sociological make-up of most human societies is the demonization of "other"-ness.

[Philosophia]

These sorts of moments are no different than those Christians who have a bad experience at A church of B denomination and decide that all of that denomination must be like that particular church.

QFT! _handclapp

I don't view this any differently than Pagans who were former Christians. Everybody spirituality is individual and unique to them. If they feel more comfortable being Christian, then so be it. If they feel resentful to their former paths then thats something they have to go through to find peace within themselves.

Like many, I have Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Atheist friends that have an understanding about other paths but also recognize that our spirituality is our own.

[Pagan Warrior]

Not ALL of them are out to get you, you know.

I never said they were, but if someone comes to me with attitude I'm likely to recirocate. When it comes to religion I maintain the "live and let live" frame of mind.

Give you an example... I use to be a Big Brother through the Big Brothers, Big Sisters organization. I had a little brother whose mother was very christian. I was very honest about my spiritual path which made her uncomfortable. However, she was pleasant and we just didn't talk about religion. However, at one point the kid begins to tell me about why I'm not going to heaven. I took issue with that and it was resolved peacefully.

I don't go looking for a fight about religion but I won't let someone walk all over me either.

[ap Dafydd]

There's nothing inherently incompatible between occultism and Christianity, at least from the occultist point of view, and there are certainly some groups who combine the two (think Dion Fortune, for example). So I tend to think that someone up there on a soapbox ranting about evil Satanists has some sort of alternative agenda.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[darkchild]

Or a Star Wars role-playing session. ;)


http://www.thunderministries.com/cults/Wiccan.html


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


Please, tell me that article is a joke...please?

[OnyxStar]

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


Please, tell me that article is a joke...please?

I really hope so.. but I don't think so.
Here's another article about homosexuals:

Churches, which are of Satan, are now even ordaining homosexuals to be ministers. http://www.thunderministries.net/Homo/homosexuality.htm
Those darn satanic churches teaching the word of god!:(

[elfmage]

Even in the instance of the "ex Wiccan High Priest" mentioned prevoiusly, I'm highly skeptical. Like that man who wrote an extremist anti-Wiccan book (I can't remember his name, but it was disturbingly popular), and claimed that he had also been a High Priest within the Alexandrian (? I think it was that particular tradition) tradition. However, he claimed that he had reached that position within some ludicrously short amount of time - something like 3 months.

When they claim to be ex-clergy who've "seen the light", personally I'd like to find out a little more; were they "clergy" within their ordained tradition of one?

I agree that people often change religions in order to find one that is accomodating to their own beliefs and spiritual needs. In that respect, "occultists" (I don't think this is the right term in this context, by the way, since the practice of magic [i.e. occultism] is not necessarily religious in nature) who become Christian are no different to Christians who become NeoPagans. However, I am always skeptical when converts to/from any religion then go on to harshly criticise the integral beliefs of their old religion. To me, it suggests resentment and immaturity - which in turn suggest that there has been no spiritual growth as a result of changing religions.

Obviously, there are mitigating circumstances (e.g. being raised in a religion as a child, and then rebelling against it - though even then, you'd hope that you could be mature enough to not bother holding some pathetic grudge), but as a general rule I find the above to be true.

[PrincessKLS]

I understand what you are saying, in my early years around age 17, I had some scary experiences. I'm a witch and I believe in ghosts and spirits but they also scare me really bad. And actually I rarely casts spells because the whole idea of evil karma with black magick frightens me. And things that don't seem evil normally would actually be considered black magick in the witchcraft world.

[SphinYote]

...I don't understand how you can experience something this amazing and just turn your back on it.

I think because the mindset relates to other things that seem good but can be really bad.

Drug use? Pleasant, fascinating experiences for some, but the payback is usually hell (not always: there are some cases I grant that they can be used reasonably, but not often).

That has more to do with the physical realm and with tangible problems.

But for many--I can say that for a lot of people here, and a lot of christians, the spirit realm (I'm using that in the broadest manner possible) is just as real, and beliefs are powerful.

The interpretation is very different.

Something that seems pleasant might very well be dangerous, or hide something dangerous. This is true of a lot of things--drugs, in some cases sex (where STDs are an issue). Care is taken, fun is had, but a risk is taken.

Analogously that same mindset occurs in terms of spiritual beliefs.

Wonder turns to fear of deception, belief that one was deceived.

To me that's very understandable.

Yote

[Lahmi]

What an interesting discussion that I missed during my times away from here. :)

No, it wasn't a bad experience that led me away from the magic paths.. those I handled by staying on those paths.
What led me to follow Jesus, was... well... Jesus. :)

Blessings

mark

[Bix]

I haven't been on here in forever...but I've changed quite a bit.

I think there are types of people who are fanatical no matter what religion they choose. They steep themselves so deeply into neopaganism: read all the books, buy stuff for their altar, etc then something happens. They're either scared off or don't find that faith as fulfilling, so they turn their fanaticism back to Christianity. This is how they can hate their old religion.

Though there are others where Christianity just seems to fit them more...and they get more out of it than neopaganism.

[Teresa]

http://www.thunderministries.com/cults/Wiccan.html
Mr Myers must have been on some good drugs back then and his imagination is quite vivid. :giggle::hehehehe::lol: He does well at stretching the truth too !
:bow:

[unit18_nate]

I'm in the "trying to increase their street cred with fanatical christians" camp. I doubt these types of people were even pagans and most were likely high priest/ess of a solitary practice if they were even that. I also don't put it past the fundies to compleatly fabricate this sort of thing on any level. "Bob this week your going to play the part of former occult survivor. I'll set up an interview with the local press. Here's what you need to know to sound credible to the soccor moms."

[Lahmi]

I'm in the "trying to increase their street cred with fanatical christians" camp. I doubt these types of people were even pagans and most were likely high priest/ess of a solitary practice if they were even that. I also don't put it past the fundies to compleatly fabricate this sort of thing on any level. "Bob this week your going to play the part of former occult survivor. I'll set up an interview with the local press. Here's what you need to know to sound credible to the soccor moms."
LOL

thanks, I needed the chuckle. :)

[Bix]

I'm in the "trying to increase their street cred with fanatical christians" camp. I doubt these types of people were even pagans and most were likely high priest/ess of a solitary practice if they were even that. I also don't put it past the fundies to compleatly fabricate this sort of thing on any level. "Bob this week your going to play the part of former occult survivor. I'll set up an interview with the local press. Here's what you need to know to sound credible to the soccor moms."

Sadly I can see people doing this.

[Lahmi]

Sadly I can see people doing this.
you know what's really sad, Bix?
None of the fundies I know would even dream of lying like that, and yet
they get tarred with that brush.
Are there idiots out there that would do so? I believe so.
The issue I have is that in lying like that, they are not following the path of Jesus.

I do find it interesting that many here, while they can see going from christianity
to paganism, seem to have difficulty believing some of us went the other way. :)

ttyl
mark

[Phoenix Blue]

you know what's really sad, Bix?
None of the fundies I know would even dream of lying like that, and yet
they get tarred with that brush.
Are there idiots out there that would do so? I believe so.
The issue I have is that in lying like that, they are not following the path of Jesus.

I do find it interesting that many here, while they can see going from christianity
to paganism, seem to have difficulty believing some of us went the other way. :)

ttyl
mark
Actually, from what I've seen, a lot of the high-profile, ex-occult born-agains are shams. Cu Chulainn (sp?) has posted a series of articles on the Witches' Voice debunking their lies. These folks believe that anything is justifiable in the name of winning souls for Christ, because after all, they're saving people from eternal damnation.

Too many people have lost the message -- instead of following Christ's path, as you do, they worship the man. You'll never get the mainstream churches to admit this, but I think it's a big part of the problem with Christianity as it exists today.

[Lahmi]

I agree with you about a large number of them, Phoenix_Blue.

Fortunately, I know several others who just follow Jesus. :)

mark

[unit18_nate]

I seriously doubt you believe the outrageous claims some of these people make.

I certainly think a person could return to the christian faith after spending time as a pagan but the ones who we hear about are the ones with the outlandish stories. I simply don't believe these people and I think there are only a few rational explinations for them. These stories are always comming from the extreamly radical fundamentalist groups so who's taring who?




you know what's really sad, Bix?
None of the fundies I know would even dream of lying like that, and yet
they get tarred with that brush.
Are there idiots out there that would do so? I believe so.
The issue I have is that in lying like that, they are not following the path of Jesus.

I do find it interesting that many here, while they can see going from christianity
to paganism, seem to have difficulty believing some of us went the other way. :)

ttyl
mark

[Lahmi]

and some of us turned to the christian faith rather than returned to it.

Being a fundy myself, and knowing quite a number of fundies.. no.

There may well be some who call themselves christians who are lying about
what they came out of. I have some on my own private charlatan list.
The thing is, if they are lying about it, then they are not really living the
fundamentals of the Christian faith.
Then there are the ex's that I know and talk to regularly, who just get about
our Lord's business for us and don't seek the spotlight with sensationalistic
garbage.

ttyl
mark

[Bix]

I lot of "Christians" that go around denouncing people seem to be really insecure about themselves.

[David19]

Mr Myers must have been on some good drugs back then and his imagination is quite vivid. :giggle::hehehehe::lol: He does well at stretching the truth too !
:bow:

Very true, apparantly, when the author of that site was a witch, he was in Coven of the Jedi!:


When real witches have sabats and esbats and meet as a coven, they greet each other by saying "Blessed be", and when they part, they say "The Force be with you."

Now, you know what "true" witches, and Wiccans, say!, although, I've got to say, it's probably better than constantly saying "Merry Meet"!.


High level witches believe that there are seven satanic princes and that the seventh, which is assigned to Christians, has no name. In coven meetings, he is called "the nameless one."

Maybe it's the Chaos magic part of me speaking, but, am I the only one who thinks working with these Powers would be quite interesting ;)!.

However, if anyone wants a good site, check out:

The Harry Potter Witchcraft Spellbook (http://web.archive.org/web/20011211181437/www3.aeonflux.net/~io/)

No doubt the author of the other piece would have a fit if he saw it, 'cause, some of the witchcraft that is in Harry Potter comes from Christian sources.

[David19]

Actually, from what I've seen, a lot of the high-profile, ex-occult born-agains are shams. Cu Chulainn (sp?) has posted a series of articles on the Witches' Voice debunking their lies. These folks believe that anything is justifiable in the name of winning souls for Christ, because after all, they're saving people from eternal damnation.

Too many people have lost the message -- instead of following Christ's path, as you do, they worship the man. You'll never get the mainstream churches to admit this, but I think it's a big part of the problem with Christianity as it exists today.

Good points, but, just a question, do you mean Kerr Cuhulain (http://www.witchvox.com/_x.html?c=whs), I googled the name you wrote, but, all I got was the name of a Celtic deity (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=CuChulainn&spell=1).

[Guardian_V]

A few months ago I was at Half Price Books looking in the Occult section and I man dressed in all black approached me and we started talk. He said he had to go and gave me his email address. I emailed him a few times it, and he told me that he used to do witchcraft but found a better way and wanted to share it with me. I thought great some guy wants me to join a cult. He say he is Christian and has a ministry to "help" pagans come to Jesus. He said that when he did witchcraft he would do spells to influence people but they wouldn't work on Christians, and also he never had the peace he was looking for as a Pagan. He send me a link to his site and it was full of Christian Propaganda.

I told him that Witchcraft is about personal transformation not power over others. It is a personal trip not a power one. I told him that I was once a Christian Youth pastor and never found peace until I was Pagan.

After that he never spoke to me again.

[Lahmi]

well, since you're in Ennis, and he was in all black,
I suspect that would have been Randy.. :)

am I right? You'll find he and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things.

for some folks, witchcraft is about power, though.

Be blessed.

mark

[ChristaWitch]

I suspect that the ones - like Bill Schnoebelen (Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie) - who tell highly exaggerated stories about what they did when they were "pagans" are mentally unstable. For instance, Schnoebelen claims to have been a 3rd degree Wiccan High Priest, 33rd(?) degree Mason, high-up in the LDS church, a vampire, a gnostic bishop and a catholic priest, all pretty much concurrently. None of which have been verified by anyone - although Ker Cuhullain's article about him said he had been a bit involved with the Church of all worlds.

The reason they come up with the weird, baby-killing cat-sacrificing stuff? Either they found a coven/group who did so (unlikely) they invented it for $$$ (gets you lots of invites and street cred with some fundies/evangelicals) or are plain mad.

Its perfectly reasonable for someone to join or rejoin Christianity after having been a pagan - and it is even reasonable to expect some of them to be resentful about their former faith and well, evangelical about the benefits of the new. The same way that some pagans Christian-bash. But the exaggerated stories are a bit way out.

[Darth Brooks]

Yeah, but you never hear about ex-Christian Pagans who talk about being involved in "the shadowy world of the church" or ritually sacrificing Pagan children, or having super duper powers from the Lord that they could use to kill people with, which they conveniently lost when they "saw the light" and came to Paganism. Some Pagans have some pretty irrational attitudes toward Christianity, but I haven't come across too many who were that irrational about it.

Although I must confess, it'd be funny to read something like that.

[ChristaWitch]

Heh, that would be a good idea for a parody!