How do we define the "Hellenic Community"? [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Tim

January 15th, 2008, 05:00 PM

Kadynas

January 17th, 2008, 01:10 AM

What I see is:
No visible growth of Hellenismos.
Many of the old web resources are either shut down, or have been abandoned and not updated for years.
Up until '07, when I wrote my books, only two books on modern Hellenismos existed and one has been out of print for years, by an author who turned Christian.
"The Lists" are, for the most part, dormant. Even the most popular Hellenic list on Yahoo, receives less posts in one month than MysticWicks, Mind-N-Magick, or eCauldron receives in one day.
When there is activity, newbies are belittled for "stupid" questions or statements.
The one legal religious organization, outside of Greece, is stagnant, and is unable to attract members or create congregations in any real numbers.
A quick Google of the phrases "Hellenismos," "Hellenic Polytheism," and "Hellenic Paganism" shows more people are talking about Hellenismos outside this so-called Hellenic Community than within.
So, is that all there is to the Hellenic Community, a small clique of "insiders"?

1. Well I guess I'd be considered part of the "growth"... I looked into Hellenismos for a long time before coming to the realization that it really was for me quite recently. :)

2. I'd agree about the old web resources... I hate to see old websites I used to love disappear on me.

3. There were a couple others... Sarah Winter's Kharis and Sannion's Temple of Words, both self-published. And a lot of deity-specific books have been coming out.

4. I think the whole "dormant list" phenomenon may be due in part to some people's preferences. I joined a bunch of the Yahoo groups recently, but it's not my preferred method of internet social interaction. I prefer boards such as this one and Mind-n-Magick over Yahoo's daily digest. I still add to my Yahoo lists when I feel like I have a relevant point, but I like the general setup of a message board better and having sub-forums per category, a quote feature, not having every post repeated 3 times due to people not "clipping" it out when replying, etc. :)

5. I haven't personally experienced too much belittlement... although I did pretty much "come out" as Hellenismos over on your forum, and not some of the other forums where I had lurked watching flame wars for months! :lol:

6. I assume you mean Hellenion? I haven't really formed much of an opinion there quite yet.

7. I see what you mean... somewhere along the way Reconstructionism in general got stereotyped in a negative way, and there's probably not enough of us to disprove the stereotype. (Though one wonders how such a stereotype gets created when there seem to be so few of us! LOL) I wasn't even sure I wanted to call myself one for awhile! I thnk there's a lot of people who love our gods, but maybe a bunch are like I was, afraid they would get called out if they didn't do everything exactly perfect according to so-and-so. And some of the scholarly works on Greek religion are just that: scholarly. The writing style is so dry in some places almost sucks the joy out of reading about the religion!

I know for me personally, Old Stones, New Temples, was the first "spark." That was my first head's up that Hellenismos existed. And then last year I was able to read your books, as well as the ones from Sannion and Sarah Winter. And I think that's what really needs to be done. Yeah there's a lot of scholarly works out there, but what people who may be interested in the religion want to know is about modern practice and the real-life experiences of the people practicing. I think the more you and others like you keep writing, the better things will get. :)

Fiamma

January 17th, 2008, 01:27 AM

"The Lists" are, for the most part, dormant. Even the most popular Hellenic list on Yahoo, receives less posts in one month than MysticWicks, Mind-N-Magick, or eCauldron receives in one day.Hey RM, I gotta tell you...hundreds of unread emails in my inbox disagree with you :-P

When there is activity, newbies are belittled for "stupid" questions or statements.

Honestly, I see very little of this in the places that I frequent- at least without what I consider to be just cause, for whatever that's worth. I know I get a bit er, snarky with people, but I try not to do so with people who are new to things and sincere in their efforts. ...but I have my limits and once certain phrases start flying (usually involving ideas like it doesn't matter as long as it feels right to you and anyhting indicating a willful lack of logic or common sense), then my patience wears veeeeery thin....you've seen me over at m-n-m, and I get a little harsher there than most places, with here at MW being the other big one. (This doesn't count my personal livejournal...once you get there, all bets are off!)

Fiamma

January 17th, 2008, 02:06 AM

I wanted to post this question outside my normal posting areas to try an get an unbiased answer. For some reason I seem to see the world a little different. There are those who seem to define the "Hellenic Community" as a group of Yahoo lists, LJ Communities, a few very specific sites, and a half dozen or so "organizations." If we look at these areas, there is a lot crossover... meaning the same active posters on the Yahoo groups are the same active posters in the LJ communities, are the same people who created the selected sites, are the same people that are running the handful of groups.

What I see is:
No visible growth of Hellenismos.
Many of the old web resources are either shut down, or have been abandoned and not updated for years.
Up until '07, when I wrote my books, only two books on modern Hellenismos existed and one has been out of print for years, by an author who turned Christian.
"The Lists" are, for the most part, dormant. Even the most popular Hellenic list on Yahoo, receives less posts in one month than MysticWicks, Mind-N-Magick, or eCauldron receives in one day.
When there is activity, newbies are belittled for "stupid" questions or statements.
The one legal religious organization, outside of Greece, is stagnant, and is unable to attract members or create congregations in any real numbers.
A quick Google of the phrases "Hellenismos," "Hellenic Polytheism," and "Hellenic Paganism" shows more people are talking about Hellenismos outside this so-called Hellenic Community than within.So, is that all there is to the Hellenic Community, a small clique of "insiders"?

Various thoughts, just writing as it comes to me...

1. Hellenion. Er...well, I tried to contact them about two years ago. when I first became interested in Hellenic recontruction. At the time, I was interested in joining...well, no one ever got back to me and I eventually gave up.

2. I'm a member of ADF. No, it's not Hellenismos. But ADF attracts a decent number of recons. I'm the secretary for ADF's Hellenic kin and I and a couple of others are looking at the possibility of coming up with a Hellenic specific study program.

3. while I've been a little lacking in my efforts, I'm starting to pick up again and plan to do more to encourage more visible Hellenic practice in the Baltimore area. I have an email list (albeit one of the dead ones you've mentioned, in the next week or so I plan to try to start publicizing it more to try to attract people and get some talking going. ) and I've done a few rituals in the last year for Hellenic festivals. They've been ADF format mostly because I've been working them on short notice and trying to keep them familiar at the moment for other participants, but as I'm doing more planning ahead, I intend to meander out of that and into more actual Hellenic ritual. I'm working on an announcement of sorts to distribute in the area to have some sort of Hellenic meetup group- basically "We're going to be at X place at Z time, if you're interested, show up and talk to us." and try to work from there.

4. I definitely want to get a decent website going, but right now don't have the resources (mostly concerned about web design software and a decent computer to work it on, hopefully that will be taken care of within the next few weeks and I can get something running and register me a domain)

5. Have ideas for a book or six...but then I also have ideas for fifty-seven some odd other books and works of poetry and fiction. And unfortunately, some problems with organizing my thoughts for any. What comes first? If I can get my head screwed on straight, I'd really like to do something on contemporary worship of Apollo. (For such a popular god, he is rather lacking for stuff written about him)

Is all this community? I dunno...but it's what I see as my own potential effort to contribute to the growth and upkeep of...whatever it is.

Does it answer your question? No, not really but again, it's what I want to put into it...and it's two in the morning and I'm surrounded by a whole lot of computers and electronic stuff and listening to Christian music :-P

David19

January 17th, 2008, 08:05 PM

I can't actually provide any answers for you, 'cause I'm not a Hellenic recon and also I'm not part of the offline Pagan community (MW is the biggest Pagan community I'm a member of and I love it), but speaking as a Sumerian recon, there's a similar problem, at least if I understood your question right, in that there's various Sumerian recons and Sumerian-influenced Pagans around, but unfortunely, there's not much organisation. Like I'd say the 2 biggest Sumerian recon groups are Temple of Sumer (http://templeofsumer.org/) and Gateways to Babylon (http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/), with various other Sumerian groups, mainly online. I'm a member of the Temple of Sumer and the guy who started it is very cool and very knowledgable, and I think he'd like to get offline too, but from what he's told me, organising Sumerians is hard to do, and what makes it harder is that not all Sumerians are in the same place (e.g. some are in London, some are in New York, other U.S. cities, etc). I'd love to get more organised and be able to worship in offline temples, with other worshippers and to have Sumerian priests (I don't consider myself a priest, and I don't buy the common Neo-Pagan saying that "we're all priests and priestesses", I consider being a priest something you have to be called for, whether it's a Catholic priest, Jewish Rabbi, Hellenic priest, Sumerian priest, Muslim Imram(sp?), etc, although I'm not sure if there's a different view in Hellenismos?). Apparantly, there was an offline group called Twin Rivers Rising, with a guy called Adapa as one of the main people in there, they used to have a site, but it appears to have gone offline now, and I can't even find it on the Internet Archive, and no ones heard from Adapa in ages, so the founder of the Temple of Sumer told me they've either gone completely offline or have dispersed and gone their seperate ways, apparantly, there's a few offline groups in Israel too (not all, but quite a few Sumerian recons do come from Jewish backgrounds).

Personally, I have quite a few ideas for books on modern Sumerian reconstructionism, but also like Fiamma, I have loads of ideas for other books too (although unlike Fiamma, I don't think I would be good at writing something to be published), and I'd love to write or see some books on Ereshkigal, as there don't seem to many at all (compared to say Inanna, who has quite a few books on her), although if I were to write one on Ereshkigal, it would have to wait till I got more in depth in worshipping her, but it's something I'd like to do.

I try and do what I can to help online communities growing and try and come up with ideas, that
maybe will inspire others, but I'd love to see it grow more.

I think what I'd like to do is find any Pagan group who may be Sumerian-influenced, e.g. Wiccans who worship Sumerian Gods, or other Pagans who use Sumerian sources, and try and form some kind of group with them, then build from there.

Anyway, I know that didn't answer your question, so I apologise if I've rambled on :).

David19

January 17th, 2008, 08:13 PM

3. while I've been a little lacking in my efforts, I'm starting to pick up again and plan to do more to encourage more visible Hellenic practice in the Baltimore area. I have an email list (albeit one of the dead ones you've mentioned, in the next week or so I plan to try to start publicizing it more to try to attract people and get some talking going. )

You know, if you want to publicise it more, I'd be happy to advertise it around on a few recon groups I'm on, and one I'm on has quite a few Hellenic recons, also, I wouldn't mind joining (I may not be a Hellenic recon, but I do really like the religion and the Gods, especially Apollo, Hecate and Eros, and a few others).

4. I definitely want to get a decent website going, but right now don't have the resources (mostly concerned about web design software and a decent computer to work it on, hopefully that will be taken care of within the next few weeks and I can get something running and register me a domain)

That's what I want to do too, especially get a website up about Ereshkigal, to publicise her more, I know that those who have heard of her and have had experiences with her do seem to really like her, but there's not that much on her, aside from the Temple of Sumer site and Gateways to Babylon. I'd like to do a modern worshippers perspective (maybe it could even evolve into something like Sannion's Sanctuary, that'd be a great dream for me, to have a Sumerian version as I really like Sannion's site and think he has a great deal of cool articles and stories).

Although to do that, I'd need to actually learn how to make a website!.

5. Have ideas for a book or six...but then I also have ideas for fifty-seven some odd other books and works of poetry and fiction. And unfortunately, some problems with organizing my thoughts for any. What comes first? If I can get my head screwed on straight, I'd really like to do something on contemporary worship of Apollo. (For such a popular god, he is rather lacking for stuff written about him)

From the posts you've written, I do think you'd be a really good writer, and I know if you ever a wrote a book on Apollo, I'd buy it (he's a God I really want to learn more about).

Tim

January 18th, 2008, 08:43 AM

3. There were a couple others... Sarah Winter's Kharis and Sannion's Temple of Words, both self-published. And a lot of deity-specific books have been coming out.
I was considering Sarah Winter's Kharis, but not Sannion's essay list... and a deity-specific book does not necessarily translate into being Hellenismos automatically.

4. I think the whole "dormant list" phenomenon may be due in part to some people's preferences. I joined a bunch of the Yahoo groups recently, but it's not my preferred method of internet social interaction. I prefer boards such as this one and Mind-n-Magick over Yahoo's daily digest. I still add to my Yahoo lists when I feel like I have a relevant point, but I like the general setup of a message board better and having sub-forums per category, a quote feature, not having every post repeated 3 times due to people not "clipping" it out when replying, etc. :)
I can agree with that, but even the Hellenic forums are dormant for the most part... Ta Hiera was absorbed into eCauldron for lack of activity, and The Dadoukhoi Agora forum is completely dead.

Tim

January 18th, 2008, 08:52 AM

Hey RM, I gotta tell you...hundreds of unread emails in my inbox disagree with you :-P
Setting your Yahoo Groups to send individual emails can be a bit deceptive in actually evaluating activity and growth. Look at these groups over the long term, and compare them to other types of groups... specifically a general Pagan forum.

Honestly, I see very little of this in the places that I frequent- at least without what I consider to be just cause, for whatever that's worth. I know I get a bit er, snarky with people, but I try not to do so with people who are new to things and sincere in their efforts.
I can give you one example. On one of the list groups a person posted a comment upset about the "Gods Behaving Badly" book and new television sitcom. She asked for insight, and the response from one of the list owners was "snarky." That response pretty much ended that conversation. I can tell you, if that owner did that on most Pagan forums (or most any forum), he would have been moderated for making an inflammatory post. It was the person's first post from what I could find, and it looks to be their last. It seems they deleted themselves from that particular list.

Tim

January 18th, 2008, 08:58 AM

1. Hellenion. Er...well, I tried to contact them about two years ago. when I first became interested in Hellenic recontruction. At the time, I was interested in joining...well, no one ever got back to me and I eventually gave up.
That's probably a separate issue to what I'm talking about, but it does add to it.

Does it answer your question?
What I'm getting at is there must be a silent majority that is the real Hellenic Community. That the majority stay silent because they see only a handful of people seeming controlling a majority of the conversation.

patch

January 18th, 2008, 11:07 AM

Setting your Yahoo Groups to send individual emails can be a bit deceptive in actually evaluating activity and growth. Look at these groups over the long term, and compare them to other types of groups... specifically a general Pagan forum.

Theres more general pagans than there are hellenic polytheists.

I said to someone the other day (it might've been you actually, are you TJalexander on lj?) I think the community is OK.

While there isn't alot of activity on designated mailing lists, I see lots of hellenic polytheists on general pagan communities like this to know there are still plenty around.
The community hasn't shrunk as such, it's merely dispersed and intergrated with other pagans.

Tim

January 18th, 2008, 12:30 PM

Theres more general pagans than there are hellenic polytheists.

I said to someone the other day (it might've been you actually, are you TJalexander on lj?) I think the community is OK.

While there isn't alot of activity on designated mailing lists, I see lots of hellenic polytheists on general pagan communities like this to know there are still plenty around.
The community hasn't shrunk as such, it's merely dispersed and intergrated with other pagans.

I know you believe that, but I don't know what you are basing that opinion on.

First, I would say zero growth is different than a reduction. While it is true that there are new people claiming the title of Hellenic, it seems to balance out with those who have stopped.

Additionally, the largest, most active Hellenic list averaged less than 10 posts a day in 2007. This is down considerably from previous years. This group averaged over 18 posts a day in 2006, over 19 posts a day in 2005, and more than 22 posts in 2004. The last time posting had been lower was in 2000, the year before Old Stones, New Temples was published. We also must consider that this is with more than 560 members.

We then look at the overall number of websites, and we can see that there has been a considerable drop in the number of Hellenic Polytheist sites. The most recent lost is Sponde.com (Hands-On Hellenism). A quick Google Blog Search shows that the number of "voices" have dwindled to a handful, on top of the loss of web resources.

Beyond the diminished capacity to support growth within the community, the community seems as cliquish as ever. Newbies are shunned unless they show proper awe and reverence to those who consider themselves the end all and be all of the Hellenic Community.

You may believe "the community" is ok, but the reality says different.

patch

January 18th, 2008, 02:28 PM

I believe it for a couple of reasons:
1. I've been a practcicing hellenic polytheist for all of two months. That makes me a newbie pretty much :D No Rude snarky ness as of yet.
2.Because I don't believe that there needs to be activity in designated sites to suggest growth. Wit the advent of generic pagan sites like this, the hellenic community just intergrate with other communities.

Tim

January 18th, 2008, 03:11 PM

1. I've been a practcicing hellenic polytheist for all of two months. That makes me a newbie pretty much :D No Rude snarky ness as of yet.
This probably does cause a big difference in perception.

2.Because I don't believe that there needs to be activity in designated sites to suggest growth. Wit the advent of generic pagan sites like this, the hellenic community just intergrate with other communities.
I agree with that, and is what I was talking about when I said I believe there is a silent majority out there. You may start to notice in time that certain "personalities" when they are talking about "the [Hellenic] community", are really only talking about a select few organizations, individual "leaders", and a handful of websites. Conversations like this one, or on Mind-N-Magick, or in other "non-community" locations are seen as inconsequential and unimportant. "They" talk a good game about inclusiveness... some even to the point of arguing that Hellenismos is indefinable and should be left to personal perception... but when push comes to shove, the clique is all they see.

patch

January 18th, 2008, 03:15 PM

. "They" talk a good game about inclusiveness... some even to the point of arguing that Hellenismos is indefinable and should be left to personal perception... but when push comes to shove, the clique is all they see.

I see your point.

However, I may have misread the above. Do you believe there is only one way of pacticing hellenismos?

Tim

January 18th, 2008, 03:46 PM

I see your point.

However, I may have misread the above. Do you believe there is only one way of pacticing hellenismos?

...only one way of practicing Hellenismos? No, but there are many practices that are not Hellenismos.

patch

January 19th, 2008, 03:54 AM

...only one way of practicing Hellenismos? No, but there are many practices that are not Hellenismos.

How do you mean?

Tim

January 19th, 2008, 07:09 AM

First and foremost, Hellenismos is an orthopraxy. This means that one of the most important aspects is how the religion is practiced. Therefore, if one is using Wiccan style rituals (as an example) that would not be Hellenismos. Additionally, Hellenismos is a reconstruction of the ancient Greek religion in the modern world. The religion is based on the history, culture, traditions, thought, and ethics of ancient Greece. If one finds themselves using something else as the primary basis of their practice, then it is most likely not Hellenismos.

Fiamma

January 19th, 2008, 04:55 PM

Beyond the diminished capacity to support growth within the community, the community seems as cliquish as ever. Newbies are shunned unless they show proper awe and reverence to those who consider themselves the end all and be all of the Hellenic Community.

This has not been my experience, and I am considerably more recent to the Helleninc community than you are. Other than the lack of return of my attempts at communication with Hellenion, I've found people to be generally very open, friendly and helpful. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I just have a special knack for getting in with cliques without even trying (I've been told that in the past) but when I first started seriously looking into reconstructionism after spending some time in ADF, I found the people that I talked to to be very friendly and helpful. Perhaps we are on different email lists, but this is what I see, with a very occasional moment of exception. I've never for a second felt like I should, or seen any indication that I was expected to show any special regard for anyone in the Hellenic community.

I see far more of this amongst the general pagan world as a whole- and by more, I mean proportionally.

As far as your previous comment about setting my email to individual messages being deceptive, well, as has already been pointed out, there are significantly fewer Hellenics than there are pagans at large- I don't really think that it's entirely reasonable to compare such lists to the general pagan lists. As for the drop in posts over the last four, five or more years...I've only been around for about two years so I can't comment too much on trends. I stick mostly to deity-specific lists though I'm on a couple of more general lists. I can only speak for myself, but I'm quiet on several of them- I don't post unless I have something to contribute, and sometimes I may have something to discuss but would prefer not to put it on a specific list because I would rather have the discussion elsewhere....If I want to discuss Apollo, it's probably going to go to the more active of the couple of Apollo-specific lists to which I belong, and after that maybe to one of the more general lists, though I tend to avoid cross-posting because it annoys many people, and a lot of the lists that i'm on contain many of the same people. Additionally, I refrain from giving the list name, but while I am a member of one of the larger lists, I tend to avoid it largely because of my extreme annoyance with one of the more frequent posters who, for as long as I've been on the list, seems to revel in his own extreme ignorance. But that's one list.

The one major exception that I have not addressed as far as snobbery and "more Hellenic than thou" and whatnot is fairly moot anymore, since what I know of it has come from a group that seems to be almost if not completely defunct for some time now, and even when I first happened along the scene, they were well on the outs and even that aside I took one look at them and knew immediately that they were not for me and moved on.

But perhaps that's just me.

Fiamma

January 19th, 2008, 05:17 PM

I can give you one example. On one of the list groups a person posted a comment upset about the "Gods Behaving Badly" book and new television sitcom. She asked for insight, and the response from one of the list owners was "snarky." That response pretty much ended that conversation. I can tell you, if that owner did that on most Pagan forums (or most any forum), he would have been moderated for making an inflammatory post. It was the person's first post from what I could find, and it looks to be their last. It seems they deleted themselves from that particular list.

I can't comment to that particular instance, I don't believe that it occurred on a list of which I am part. But I'm not saying that snarkiness is nonexistent- I can give examples of it myself. I can even give a few where I was one of the snarky ones- there are a few things that short my circuits and I tend to knee-jerk at, and I've also had some instances where I've lost patience when attempting to be friendly and helpful and being told that I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't cast circles and call quarters or Acknowledge Hekate as the High Imperial Witchy Crone Goddess Of All Things Dark And Gloomy.

However, I don't see it on nearly the widespread basis that I'm reading off of what you're saying here. It definitely exists- I admit to being a contributor even, but if I didn't know any better to read what you're saying, to be accepted as Hellenic, one would have to know the handshake, the secret password, submit to a retinal scan and written examination and bow down and kiss the rings on the fingers of (insert name of various community members you're thinking of here).

I just don't see that.

Tim

January 19th, 2008, 07:52 PM

if I didn't know any better to read what you're saying, to be accepted as Hellenic, one would have to know the handshake, the secret password, submit to a retinal scan and written examination and bow down and kiss the rings on the fingers of (insert name of various community members you're thinking of here).

I just don't see that.
That is not how I see the [Hellenic] community as a whole, but that is the perception that I do see being put out there by some... and if you are 'fuego859', then you may have that group email in you inbox.

Tim

January 19th, 2008, 08:04 PM

As far as your previous comment about setting my email to individual messages being deceptive, well, as has already been pointed out, there are significantly fewer Hellenics than there are pagans at large- I don't really think that it's entirely reasonable to compare such lists to the general pagan lists. As for the drop in posts over the last four, five or more years...I've only been around for about two years so I can't comment too much on trends.
I'm talking proportionally as well. A 550+ discussion group receiving less than 10 most a day is the best we have... or at least had... hoping my new site will do a bit better. In addition, out of that 550+ there is only a small handful of regular posters. Maybe I have higher expectations since I run a successful forum. Because of that and the diversity that exists there, I may also have a lower tolerance of inflammatory language. It's one thing to aggressively challenge an idea... or even work to expose a flimflam artist... but its completely different to belittle the comments and questions of an obvious newbie.

Tim

January 19th, 2008, 08:08 PM

The one major exception that I have not addressed as far as snobbery and "more Hellenic than thou" and whatnot is fairly moot anymore, since what I know of it has come from a group that seems to be almost if not completely defunct for some time now, and even when I first happened along the scene, they were well on the outs and even that aside I took one look at them and knew immediately that they were not for me and moved on.
I'm not sure who you are talking about... or maybe I do. Does this group happen to be a former Wiccan coven?

Fiamma

January 19th, 2008, 08:58 PM

I do believe we are thinking of very different groups.

I'm not sure who you are talking about... or maybe I do. Does this group happen to be a former Wiccan coven?

Fiamma

January 19th, 2008, 09:00 PM

That is not how I see the [Hellenic] community as a whole, but that is the perception that I do see being put out there by some... and if you are 'fuego859', then you may have that group email in you inbox.

Okay, I can see it in some though I still don't think to the same extent that you do but to be perfectly honest, a lot of what you've been saying is coming across- at least to me- as how the Hellenic community as a whole receives new folks.

That's my yahoo ID...but I receive my email on a gmail account. If you've found me on the list in question, then I missed it completely. If this is the case, it's probably the list of which I am a member but extremely inactive that I mentioned in a previous post.

Tim

January 19th, 2008, 10:13 PM

Fiamma

January 19th, 2008, 11:27 PM

Let's also go back to the no growth aspect I think is directly caused by these certain individuals. Think about this... I posted my question on a board that I rarely frequent in an attempt to get a neutral opinion (I know you're trying to be objective). Every person that replied to this thread, and is Hellenic, is someone I have had conversations with... so, people I know and know me (to some extend). No growth means that a person making the attempt to know the Hellenic Community easily can be at least aware of most of the people identifying themselves as Hellenic Polytheists. It is a shame we are that small for 15 years of reconstruction.

We really just don't know how many are out there who aren't participating in the web forums and lists- offhand, I personally know at least five or six people in the Baltimore/DC area who are Hellenic recon, or at least Hellenic polytheist with some recon interests who, for any number of reasons- often coming down to not having time, or having limited internet access, don't participate in web forums and lists, but do stuff locally, holding rituals in their home or in places like unitarian churches. I actually was attempting to band together with a few of these folks a while back, but due to distance and my not having a car, and a few other factors, it just wasn't feasible.

I also know for a fact that there are at least a few others with whom I am not personally acquainted. Back when I first posted on witchvox that I was looking for folks, I got emails from as far away as North Carolina., and a couple from southern PA.

Have you considered how many people may be out there that we just don't know about because they keep to themselves, or don't have internet access, or any one of a bajillion other reasons? Or the number of pagans who don't realize that there are other options than vaguely Wicca-flavored Llewellyn Neopaganism who might otherwise be interested? Or however many there are that, for whatever reason, never go to the Hellenic specific forums, but stick to the general pagan ones...or...well, the possibilities are endless. I think there are more out there than we think.

I'm curious, what is/are your specific concerns with regards to community growth? Is it retaining new people who wander in? Actually recruiting new people? Something else? Some combination?

patch

January 20th, 2008, 03:31 AM

Tim

January 20th, 2008, 01:20 PM

We really just don't know how many are out there who aren't participating in the web forums and lists- offhand, I personally know at least five or six people in the Baltimore/DC area who are Hellenic recon, or at least Hellenic polytheist with some recon interests who, for any number of reasons- often coming down to not having time, or having limited internet access, don't participate in web forums and lists, but do stuff locally, holding rituals in their home or in places like unitarian churches. I actually was attempting to band together with a few of these folks a while back, but due to distance and my not having a car, and a few other factors, it just wasn't feasible.

I also know for a fact that there are at least a few others with whom I am not personally acquainted. Back when I first posted on witchvox that I was looking for folks, I got emails from as far away as North Carolina., and a couple from southern PA.

Have you considered how many people may be out there that we just don't know about because they keep to themselves, or don't have internet access, or any one of a bajillion other reasons? Or the number of pagans who don't realize that there are other options than vaguely Wicca-flavored Llewellyn Neopaganism who might otherwise be interested? Or however many there are that, for whatever reason, never go to the Hellenic specific forums, but stick to the general pagan ones...or...well, the possibilities are endless. I think there are more out there than we think.
I have, and have said so much in this thread. The idea that there is a silent majority that no one (or at least the talking heads) takes into consideration when talking about the [Hellenic] community. At some point, the idea that this is proportionate to other groups can be linked to the idea that some do not have time, do not have limited internet access, don't participate in web forums and lists, or any of a long list of benign reasons. There are also those that don't publicly participate because Hellenismos is presented (by some) as a good ole' boys club. It is the good ole' boys club atmosphere that I was talking about in the first post when I asked, how are we defining the Hellenic Community?

I'm curious, what is/are your specific concerns with regards to community growth? Is it retaining new people who wander in? Actually recruiting new people? Something else? Some combination?
The concern is growth and long-term viability. If the lists are going dormant, forums going dead, resources disappearing, legal organizations are stagnating, and nothing is replacing them then at some point, this all becomes a failed religious movement. Sure, you may continue to have a scattering of those identifying themselves as practitioners of Hellenismos or Hellenic Polytheists, but this falls far short of a recognizable religion, movement, and community.

Tim

January 20th, 2008, 01:49 PM

In the past year I've seen growth in the hellenic community. I don't think this growth has to reflected in mailing lists.
We are here talking now. I have a few hellenics I identify myself with, by accident we end up in the same places on the net.
I know that is your perception, I just don't see what you are basing that on.

There are more active hellenics on this board than there are the mailing lists, and so here; my words are more likely to make a differece.
I would agree... and more on Mind-N-Magick and eCauldron as well. In fact, there are more posts regarding Hellenismos and Hellenic Polytheism on Mind-N-Magick in one month than the top Yahoo List or LJ Community. This goes to the good ole' boys network that I described to Fiamma. There are talking heads out there who will insist that what these Hellenic Polytheists are doing is outside "the community" and inconsequential.

Ever heard of nekoroi? They're still pretty active! :)
Yes I have heard of them... and if you know who is running that organization then I would point you to my comment from my original post that states, "There are those who seem to define the 'Hellenic Community' as a group of Yahoo lists, LJ Communities, a few very specific sites, and a half dozen or so 'organizations.' If we look at these areas, there is a lot of crossover... meaning the same active posters on the Yahoo groups are the same active posters in the LJ communities, are the same people who created the selected sites, are the same people that are running the handful of groups."

Finally, I just have to question why you think the 'big guys' in hellenic polytheism are all rude, especially to newbies?
I've seen it, but it's not to all newbies. If the newbie shows proper awe and reverence to those who consider themselves the "leaders" of the Hellenic Community then they are embraced. If a newbie is a follower then they have no problems being embraced by "the community."

Fiamma

January 20th, 2008, 06:20 PM

I've seen it, but it's not to all newbies. If the newbie shows proper awe and reverence to those who consider themselves the "leaders" of the Hellenic Community then they are embraced. If a newbie is a follower then they have no problems being embraced by "the community."

I show awe and reverence to none. If I like what someone's saying and care enough to say so, I do. If not, I don't. The same applies for the names that everyone knows, and the lurker that makes one post a year, and the just getting started new kid that joined an hour ago.

I cna only speak from my own experience, and from what I've seen. Aside from the list that we briefly discussed a few posts back regarding the single incident- which as I said, I largely ignore that list and have considered dropping myself from its membership, but every now and then an interesting discussion comes up- I've seen fairly little of this on the lists to which I pay attention. I can't really say any more than that.

Fiamma

January 20th, 2008, 06:29 PM

Yes I have heard of them... and if you know who is running that organization then I would point you to my comment from my original post that states, "There are those who seem to define the 'Hellenic Community' as a group of Yahoo lists, LJ Communities, a few very specific sites, and a half dozen or so 'organizations.'

Is there anywhere that this discussion exists on the web that I can see it? Not that I don't beleive that it's been said- I do, but I'd be interested in seeing the conversation myself if I can, and who has been on these discussions.

I dunno, maybe I'm just reading all the wrong emails and forums, but I've never seen anyone say that what goes on in general forums is insignificant, or that the Hellenic community is limited to some specific sites, people, lists and groups. I've seen people say that those are the Hellenic community as they're familiar with it, or as they've seen, but not to the point of denying that anyhting else is out there, be it anything at all or anything that counts.

Tim

January 20th, 2008, 07:33 PM

I said that... in my first post, and based on my own experiences. The fact that what is identifiable as the Hellenic community is diminishing is undeniable. Refusing to accept the fact that fewer and fewer resources exist, those that do exist are in fewer and fewer hands, and that there are fewer and fewer public Hellenics does not change the actuality of it. If no one cares or has no worries beyond themselves then I guess its really not worth discussing. I brought this up on another venue about three months ago, and received pretty much the same reaction. No one is willing to see this decline as happening, and no one is willing to look at the root cause. I brought it up again now because of finding out that sponde.com is offline, that one newbie being embarrassed off a list on Yahoo, and becuase of one person's LJ blog posts that seem to imply there is a real community and then there is everyone else.

Fiamma

January 21st, 2008, 08:57 PM

I said that... in my first post, and based on my own experiences.

Yes, I know you've said that. I see it here. I was asking about discussion elsewhere. If it's not available that's fine, but referring me to commentary made within the same thread is like using a word in its own definition.

The fact that what is identifiable as the Hellenic community is diminishing is undeniable. Refusing to accept the fact that fewer and fewer resources exist, those that do exist are in fewer and fewer hands, and that there are fewer and fewer public Hellenics does not change the actuality of it.

I don't flat-out refuse to accept, but I also don't just unquestioningly swallow what I'm told by one person when what is said appears to contradict what I've seen.

If no one cares or has no worries beyond themselves then I guess its really not worth discussing.

I can only speak for myself, but I do care. I listed what I'm trying to do, and what I would like to do in the near future.

I brought this up on another venue about three months ago, and received pretty much the same reaction. No one is willing to see this decline as happening, and no one is willing to look at the root cause.

I can't comment on discussions in which I had no part. I don't know what to tell you. All I know is that a lot of what you describe is completely different from what I've experienced. I understand that it's entirely possible that for whatever reason, my experience is atypical and not a particularly accurate representation of what's actually going on, which is a large part of the reason I asked where else I could read such discussions.

I brought it up again now because of finding out that sponde.com is offline, that one newbie being embarrassed off a list on Yahoo, and becuase of one person's LJ blog posts that seem to imply there is a real community and then there is everyone else.

I don't know what to say that I haven't already. We're going around in circles here. My experience is obviously very different from yours.

In any case, I'm going to stop here because nothing new has been said, and we're getting nowhere. I'm going to keep on doing what I do.

Theres

January 22nd, 2008, 01:52 AM

it seems to0 me that you're basing all your results on the internet.
while i don't doubt that the internet accounts for many people's opinions, i have to wonder whether that includes all Hellenists.

it is fairly obvious that the mainstream Wiccan community is very web-savvy, but i have to wonder if this is true for all Pagan paths. it seems to0 me that the Hellenic path is less ambiguous, and therefore... perhaps... less dependent on group agreement, or (dare i say it?) community?
perhaps the more strictly defined Hellenic path leaves less leeway for discussion. either you believe in eusebia, praxis, et al, or you don't. there aren't a lot of 'eclectic' Hellenists, if you get my point (imo).

so perhaps a strictly internet poll isn't necessarily a valid pov.

(or not).

Tim

January 22nd, 2008, 08:13 AM

Yes, I know you've said that. I see it here. I was asking about discussion elsewhere. If it's not available that's fine, but referring me to commentary made within the same thread is like using a word in its own definition.
Have you ever seen what happens when I point out someone's BS publicly? I'm just not going to deal with that anymore. If you haven't seen those types of comments (more likely your just interpreting them differently) then that's fine.

I don't flat-out refuse to accept, but I also don't just unquestioningly swallow what I'm told by one person when what is said appears to contradict what I've seen.
The diminishing activity is visible. It is not something that need to be just believed because I say so. That sponde.com is gone is nothing that anyone needs to take my work on. That "the lists" are mostly dormant can be seen by their activity. That the one legal organization is not growing is evident.

I can't comment on discussions in which I had no part. I don't know what to tell you. All I know is that a lot of what you describe is completely different from what I've experienced. I understand that it's entirely possible that for whatever reason, my experience is atypical and not a particularly accurate representation of what's actually going on, which is a large part of the reason I asked where else I could read such discussions.
Your perception is your perception, but the reaction seems typical to when I discussed it elsewhere. I'm just not sure why people on the "inside" don't see what I see. A blog search shows few are talking about Hellenismos and Hellenic Polytheism. I search of Google and Yahoo shows few sites specifically dedicated to the topic. Many sites that are still up are sitting on free servers and have not been updated in years... are the creators even still practitioners, or is the site just up because they didn't care to delete it? Its plan to see that most Hellenic forums are dead. Anyone can look at the list of yahoo groups and see little is going on. Anyone can look at the LJ Communities and see even less going on.

Tim

January 22nd, 2008, 08:31 AM

it seems to0 me that you're basing all your results on the internet.
while i don't doubt that the internet accounts for many people's opinions, i have to wonder whether that includes all Hellenists.
No, we've talked about that here... but can we really include a person who only participates in their household religion as part of "the community?" When I compare what is going on in Greece with that is going on here, I see in Greece a real world effort that spilled over onto the net, but in the US I see an online effort that created little real world impact and is slowly suffocating under the weight of its own hubris.

it is fairly obvious that the mainstream Wiccan community is very web-savvy, but i have to wonder if this is true for all Pagan paths. it seems to0 me that the Hellenic path is less ambiguous, and therefore... perhaps... less dependent on group agreement, or (dare i say it?) community?
I would probably disagree with this. The ancient Greek religion is focused on community. On a personal level it revolved around the family, on the large scale it revolved around public worship. The whole religion focused on community at some level. It is an essential aspect to the religion, and would need to be part of any reconstruction.

perhaps the more strictly defined Hellenic path leaves less leeway for discussion. either you believe in eusebia, praxis, et al, or you don't. there aren't a lot of 'eclectic' Hellenists, if you get my point (imo).

so perhaps a strictly internet poll isn't necessarily a valid pov.
Maybe not, but what else is there? How many offline groups do you know? ...and I mean real groups, not 2-3 people in an offline study group. How many groups in the US can gather 30-40-50 Hellenists for a public event?

Kadynas

January 22nd, 2008, 12:38 PM

No, we've talked about that here... but can we really include a person who only participates in their household religion as part of "the community?" When I compare what is going on in Greece with that is going on here, I see in Greece a real world effort that spilled over onto the net, but in the US I see an online effort that created little real world impact and is slowly suffocating under the weight of its own hubris.

I would probably disagree with this. The ancient Greek religion is focused on community. On a personal level it revolved around the family, on the large scale it revolved around public worship. The whole religion focused on community at some level. It is an essential aspect to the religion, and would need to be part of any reconstruction.
Well that's part of the problem right there... Most of us don't have family members that share our beliefs. I'd say most of us were raised in Judeo-Christian religions, even if our families weren't really religiously active. And even the families we create for ourselves don't always end up sharing our beliefs. My husband is an atheist, for example.

On the idea of community within Hellenismos, I try to express that through "community service" to use a generic term. Being active in local and national politics, donating for food and clothing drives, volunteer work, etc.

I would love to have a greater sense of religious community within Hellenismos, but there just aren't any others I know of close to me. There's a few Hellenes 3 hours away in Boston or 2 hours away in New York and that's about as close as they get.

Maybe not, but what else is there? How many offline groups do you know? ...and I mean real groups, not 2-3 people in an offline study group. How many groups in the US can gather 30-40-50 Hellenists for a public event?
Not many... other than message boards & lists, the only online "group" I've joined is Neokoroi. And while they have the goal of one day establishing actual temples, for now I saw joining them as a way I could immediately contribute something to the community: through their newsletter. I'm an artist and a writer and I plan to contribute to some of my work. I was overjoyed to find out there WAS a newsletter specifically for Hellenes! :lol: Right now I think the writers are doing a tremendous service to the community, yourself most definitely included. As a newcomer, reading your books, as well as Drew Campbell's, Sannion's, and Sarah Winter's, helped me to get a real feel for the path beyond just "what I had heard" about it.

I understand the point you're making, and to a large extent I would agree with you. But what do you propose we actually DO about it? Especially on an individual level. I'm definitely open to suggestions. :) I assume if you're bringing up this topic more than once, then you've probably come up with at least a few ideas here & there.

Zephyrstorm

January 22nd, 2008, 02:06 PM

Not sure I should poke my head in here, but here goes:

One of the complaints I'm seeing is the proposal that there are only a few regularly active Hellenes online in the lists and sights and all - if we were to apply that to the general Pagan or Wiccan community, then the same can be seen as true.

If I go to eCauldron, I see several familiar names from sites as diverse as Mystic Wicks, Belief.net and About.com/Pagan. I can also encounter the same folks on Delphi forums and elsewhere. The same folks that I talk to here I see elsewhere. Does that mean that they are the only one's doing things actively? Thank the Gods no.
Does that mean that the Pagan world is diminishing in size? no. (don't know if that's a good thing or not, but it seems to be growing.)

I am not upset to encounter these same individuals around the interwebs, even if I don't agree with their opinions - I simply accept that they have the same right to be active where they will.

Additionally, we have no way of knowing what is going on community wise offline - in Hellenismos, Roman Recon or elsewise. The Asatruar and CR communities, honestly, have a head start on this since they became organized earlier.

The other consideration is that there are going to be times when the population of Hellenes and others declines, and times when it will ascend. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a fact of group dynamics. Same with those who don't understand how to act towards newbies, and those who don't speak up when they could.

*climbs back into her box to hide*

Twinkle

January 22nd, 2008, 07:33 PM

There's no reason to hide!:smileroll:hahugh:

I found it extremely difficult to "gain entry" into the online Hellenic Yahoo Lists...but I think I have to take into account my communication style.

I wasn't a newbie to the religion, and I had formed and well thought out opinions. As with any community, there are ways to interact and feel your way through...and I was assertive, challenging and highly opinionated. None of that fell in my favor, I suppose.

I have to say that I've seen newbies eviscerated, some deservedly so, some...not so much.

I would say that in my experience it is cliquish, with maybe 15 people at the most truly speaking out any subjects...and they are everywhere I happen to venture. There's not much opportunity to meet others of like mind without it becoming quickly adversarial and heated.

I don't want to place blame or anything like that...it's just my observation.

Then again, most Hellenic communities are not Reconstructionist, but Hellenic Polytheist, or even multireligious or eclectic...so this may be where I'm getting some of the conflicts...and why others are not.

Just my thoughts.

Zephyrstorm

January 22nd, 2008, 08:17 PM

Indeed, and the same form of agressive communication is directed by some towards newbies in the general Pagan community too. I've seen not too few young or new Pagans step up and ask a question and immediately find themselves critiqued and demeaned by a few.

Which is sad.
I think its a symptom of internet communication drawbacks - no body language, no vocal tones - makes getting a point across hard sometimes.
:hugz:

Twinkle

January 22nd, 2008, 10:19 PM

In terms of Hellenic Polytheism...we have a problem with defintions, as well.

Hellenic Reconstruction (Hellenismos) and Hellenic Polytheism seemed to be used interchangeably....so a newbie stepping into a Forum with a bunch of reconstructionists may feel that what they are practicing is Hellenismos, when it's actually Hellenic Paganism, Hellenic Polytheism, or even Hellenic Wicca.

This is where you see the biting off of heads with the Recons. And sometimes it is deserved. Iknow that I jumped on someone who claimed they were "somewhat reconstructionist" when it was obvious they had read a couple of myths and declared they were worshipping the "Dark God" Hades.

So...it's all relative.

I don't believe that the Hellenic Community is made up of Recons at this time. And what I am seeing within the community (online) is an Anti-Recon streak...yet they still want to call what they practice Hellenismos. I've heard Hellenic Polytheists saying that Reconstruction is not sane, and that to offer chocolate would be a horrible thing to a Recon. In all actuality, Hellenic Reconstruction is a modern day religion...we have no issues with chocolate, tobacco, or coffee as offerings.

Now...not all communities are like this, and I don't want to imply that they are, but in my experience, the vast majority of them are.

So now we have newbies thinking they are practicing Hellenismos, when they are not. This is not their fault when we have multireligious and eclectic Hellenic Pagans saying that are practitioners of Hellenismos. The Recons like myself are trying to keep the integrity of Hellenic Reconstruction...it's a cesspool of conflict.

And not very pleasant.

Zephyrstorm

January 22nd, 2008, 10:51 PM

Right - When I was feeling out the Celtic Recons some years ago, there were similar discussions occurring. The conclusion that one discussion came to was that there are Reconstructionists, which means building a Modern belief system based upon the Ancient ways - updated so as to not include things like head-hunting, and to allow for new offerings and new traditions which accurately reflect the lore and spirit of the ancient beliefs.
Then there were the Revivalists, who were vastly more rare (and less sensible, in my book), and they were more inclined to take things a bit further, rejecting modern interpretations and traditions (i.e. refusing to offer chocolate to the Gods, etc.)

There was one group in the UK for a while that had built a stone age Briton hamlet and were spending time there living as if they were ancient Britons. I don't know exactly how they were managing it though - was it a weekend excursion or was it their life away from work? I wonder if they're still around.

Fiamma

January 22nd, 2008, 11:51 PM

In all actuality, Hellenic Reconstruction is a modern day religion...we have no issues with chocolate, tobacco, or coffee as offerings.

I gave Hermes a cup of coffee with caramel yesterday :-)

Twinkle

January 23rd, 2008, 07:23 AM

I lit a Caramel Creme candle, a Caramel Bar Candle, and offered him Caramels yesterday!

:lol:

Twinkle

January 23rd, 2008, 07:34 AM

I could be wrong, but what I am seeing is that Hellenic Polytheism is the most vocal group....and there seems to be some misunderstanding that Hellenic Reconstruction is Revivalism.

So...for many who are unaware of what Reconstruction actually is....the only alternative is Hellenic Polytheism....in which some have co-opted the term Hellenismos.

Still others within the community (quite vocal) want to make Hellenismos a blanket term covering Hellenic Paganism, Hellenic Druids, Hellenic Recons, and Hellenic Polytheists.

My fear is that if we do that Hellenismos will become Wiccafied. Scary.

So...if there is a Hellenic Community, then the Recon perspective should not be blasted.

I feel bad, but to me, the Hellenic Community is only a community as long as you are not Recon.

Fiamma

January 23rd, 2008, 08:03 AM

Still others within the community (quite vocal) want to make Hellenismos a blanket term covering Hellenic Paganism, Hellenic Druids, Hellenic Recons, and Hellenic Polytheists.

I don't think we should be just going around redefining words, but I think that all of these can have their place in the "Hellenic community".

Personally, I do not identify as practicing "Hellenismos". My own personal religious practice is somewhat reconstructionist- and I forget who I first heard this particular wording from, it may have been you, Twinkle, but I see reconstruction in the sense not of taking the Hellenic religion as we know it from back in the day and porting it forward to 2008 as it was, but practicing and living the religion as we can best think that it may have become had it survived uninterrupted.

My group religious practice is, of course, not reconstructionist but when holding rituals in honor of Hellenic gods, includes as many appropriate traditional elements as I can be sure to get in there

Tim

January 23rd, 2008, 08:05 AM

I understand the point you're making, and to a large extent I would agree with you. But what do you propose we actually DO about it? Especially on an individual level. I'm definitely open to suggestions. :) I assume if you're bringing up this topic more than once, then you've probably come up with at least a few ideas here & there.
When it comes to the Gods, I always say think big. But, right now, I believe what is needed is more prominent voices... more web resources, more bloggers/writers, more books, more organizations. We need "Kadynas' Online Shire" (I made that up) to be prominent in online searches. We need "Kadynas' Guide to the Gods" selling on Amazon and in Barns & Nobles. We need "Kadynas' Musings on Hellenismos" blog. We need Kadynas' doing outreach to the local Pagan community and other open minded people, and providing education. We need Kadynas' starting a 501(c)(3) non-profit religious organization.

YoungSoulRebel

February 5th, 2008, 11:13 AM

I wanted to post this question outside my normal posting areas to try an get an unbiased answer. For some reason I seem to see the world a little different. There are those who seem to define the "Hellenic Community" as a group of Yahoo lists, LJ Communities, a few very specific sites, and a half dozen or so "organizations." If we look at these areas, there is a lot crossover... meaning the same active posters on the Yahoo groups are the same active posters in the LJ communities, are the same people who created the selected sites, are the same people that are running the handful of groups.

There's a lot of cross-over on Internet fora for any specific Pagan religion that isn't Pop Wicca. That's just how it is. Like it or not, the catch-all "Paganism" is a very small minority in the English-speaking world, and when that minority is "segmented", let's say, things just look smaller and smaller.

What I see is:
No visible growth of Hellenismos.Obviously, you have a definition of "visible growth" that just isn't the same as those who *are* active on these lists and related fora you refer to. The oldest yahoo list pertaining to "the Hellenic community" was created in 1998 or '99 (HellenicPagan). I've only been a part of the on-line Hellenic community for the last year and a half, tops, and considering what an insufferable loudmouth i am, I think that may count as "visible".

Furthermore, cos I *am* on a lot of those e-mail lists, I do see truly new people joining regularly. Maybe not every day or even every week, but I can usually count on seeing one genuinely new person announcing presence every four to eight weeks.

Many of the old web resources are either shut down, or have been abandoned and not updated for years.

Examples?

Up until '07, when I wrote my books, only two books on modern Hellenismos existed and one has been out of print for years, by an author who turned Christian.

So? You speak as if there were dozens of books on Wicca for its first decade or so as a "known" religion. But seriously, there were a couple of other books besides Kharis and the now out-of-print Old Stones, New Temples -- if one is allowed to count collections of devotional hymns -- by the dawn of 2007. And in just the last year, more have been published.

Additionally, why do you care that one author "turned Christian"? At least he didn't "turn" into some evangelizing nincompoop who wants nothing to do with the Hellenic community since -- indeed, he still has friends within the Hellenic community. Since his conversion isn't at all important to whatever point you may be trying to make, the only reason you would bring it up is to essentially poison the well.

"The Lists" are, for the most part, dormant. Even the most popular Hellenic list on Yahoo, receives less posts in one month than MysticWicks, Mind-N-Magick, or eCauldron receives in one day.

Define "popular", in this instance.

Regardless, DUH there are going to be more posts on the fora you named -- they are *generalised* Pagan fora -- not *specialised* single-faith e-mail lists.

When there is activity, newbies are belittled for "stupid" questions or statements.

Define "belittling".

Frankly, some people say things that are just wrong. I'm sure people would get pretty annoyed and pretty fast on BTW fora where new people just wandered in and started quoting wrong information and expected to be taken seriously.

The one legal religious organization, outside of Greece, is stagnant, and is unable to attract members or create congregations in any real numbers.

Define "real numbers". There are at least two Demos I know of that meet regularly, one of which even recently attracted a couple of new members to the org of which you speak.

A quick Google of the phrases "Hellenismos," "Hellenic Polytheism," and "Hellenic Paganism" shows more people are talking about Hellenismos outside this so-called Hellenic Community than within.So, is that all there is to the Hellenic Community, a small clique of "insiders"?

Define "more people". Just doing what you described, *my* calculations make about 50/50.

Was there any real point to this post of yours, or are you just trying to goad people out of boredom?

YoungSoulRebel

February 5th, 2008, 11:22 AM

[/list]Hey RM, I gotta tell you...h

"RM"? To a "Tim"? Where did the "R" come from?

For the love of all that is holy, do NOT tell me you thought that was me. If I'm going to vent, I'll do it under my own name (or my regular handle).

-- RJ

YoungSoulRebel

February 5th, 2008, 11:51 AM

There are talking heads out there who will insist that what these Hellenic Polytheists are doing is outside "the community" and inconsequential.

Source?

There was a discussion about this some time ago, yes, on one of "the lists", and people did consider those who weren't on the lists for an estimated English-speaking "Hellenic community" of approximately 1,500 -- that's many times the active members on these fora you speak of, and nearly three times as many as the population you quoted for the Hellenic_Pagan yahoo group. It's an estimate, so it's not going to be perfect, but it's hardly reflecting as insular an attitude as you're trying to portray.

Kadynas

February 5th, 2008, 01:36 PM

Just thought I'd put in an update... Sponde is back with a new web address.
http://sponde.suneagle.info/

Wasn't sure if everyone knew this yet or not, I just saw it this morning when someone posted a link to an article on the site from my Hellenic Pagan yahoo group. :)

Tim

February 8th, 2008, 08:20 AM

Obviously, you have a definition of "visible growth" that just isn't the same as those who *are* active on these lists and related fora you refer to. The oldest yahoo list pertaining to "the Hellenic community" was created in 1998 or '99 (HellenicPagan). I've only been a part of the on-line Hellenic community for the last year and a half, tops, and considering what an insufferable loudmouth i am, I think that may count as "visible".
Check out the historical trends of the HellenicPagan Yahoo Group.

Furthermore, cos I *am* on a lot of those e-mail lists, I do see truly new people joining regularly. Maybe not every day or even every week, but I can usually count on seeing one genuinely new person announcing presence every four to eight weeks.
New people does not equate with growth if new people do not participate or older participants go dormant.

Examples?
I did provide examples in this discussion, but there is also sites like Druansha's Hellenic Site (http://www.druansha.com/), Demos Oreiadon (http://demos-oreiadon.8m.net/), The Online Temple of Demeter (http://www.templeofdemeter.com/), Zagreus (http://www.zagreus.com/), Eleusis.com (http://www.eleusis.com), and others. I can understand if your perception is shaped from only the last year and a half, but Hellenic reconstructionism is older than your participation.

Additionally, why do you care that one author "turned Christian"? At least he didn't "turn" into some evangelizing nincompoop who wants nothing to do with the Hellenic community since -- indeed, he still has friends within the Hellenic community. Since his conversion isn't at all important to whatever point you may be trying to make, the only reason you would bring it up is to essentially poison the well.
...poison the well? How so? My point is the movement seems to be retracting. The "heyday" was just after Campbell's book. He leaves the movement, and it looses focus and momentum, at least in the US.

Define "popular", in this instance.

Regardless, DUH there are going to be more posts on the fora you named -- they are *generalised* Pagan fora -- not *specialised* single-faith e-mail lists.
We are talking about DUH proportional posts, the ratio of members to posts, the average post count per member, and the monthly post counts based on membership. It's called statistical analysis.

Define "belittling".
Well, Mr. Clinton, belittling comments are comments that serve the propose of making a person feel inferior or stupid. Like if I responded that belittling was a sixth grade word and that I'm not here to be your Language Arts teacher, or if I instructed you to invest in a dictionary before engaging on a forum.

Define "real numbers". There are at least two Demos I know of that meet regularly, one of which even recently attracted a couple of new members to the org of which you speak.
Hellenion reports only one official Demos (3 or more members), and seven Proto-Demos. This is a flat-line number for years. While they do not make membership numbers public, compare their income statements (which they make public as a non-profit) with membership dues, and you can calculate a max number of members in the mid 30s. This is another stagnant number.

Define "more people". Just doing what you described, *my* calculations make about 50/50.
You did not do what I said. The evidence shows more people are talking about Hellenismos outside "Hellenic" circles than within. Finding 50 sites means nothing, which I have no idea what you are including in your list of Hellenic Polytheist sites. You do know sites like theoi.com are not "community" websites. Are you confusing sites on the ancient Greek religion and myth with sites on modern Hellenismos?

YoungSoulRebel

February 13th, 2008, 02:07 AM

New people does not equate with growth if new people do not participate or older participants go dormant.

So...

You're saying that people only count if they're *actively participating on-line*? Then what's the point of counting anything off those lists (which seems to be at least *part* of what you're talking about)? So, basically, YOU are saying that "if it's outside the aforementioned 'clique' then it doesn't count" -- then what the hell are you blubbering on about?

...poison the well? How so? My point is the movement seems to be retracting. The "heyday" was just after Campbell's book. He leaves the movement, and it looses focus and momentum, at least in the US.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

See, I think you know exactly what I'm talking about, here. You're using that as proof of something when, in reality, it's proof of nothing. Focus has not been "lost", as you allege; it may have shifted, but as long as there are people dedicated to the growth of the community (which, by the way, there are), then "focus", as you seem to be defining it here, is never lost. In other words, you only brought up Campbell's conversion to be a prick to those you claim to be "cliquish" and "losing focus" and otherwise prove whatever your mean-spirited objective is.

We are talking about DUH proportional posts, the ratio of members to posts, the average post count per member, and the monthly post counts based on membership. It's called statistical analysis.

So, you're telling me that you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the exact numbers of people on M-N-M and MW who both a) talk about Hellenismos/Hellenic Polytheism AND b) identify as "part of the Hellenic community" AND are not "cross-over from the e-mail lists and LiveJournal? Unless you can, then again, I must say that bringing up the proportionally "higher" activity on the GENERALISED fora of M-N-M and MW MEANS NOTHING to what you're talking about. Unless you can pull exact numbers, prove and subtract any overlap and thus prove "higher" on the general fora, your allegations of "higher actiity" say nothing. DUH a generalised forum is going to have greater activity than a specialised one -- that's just how it works. Hell, RPG.net's "Tangency Open" board gets twenty times the daily activity as "Tangency Other [Non-Gaming] Media". Comparing generalised fora with specialised fora is apples-and-oranges talk.

Well, Mr. Clinton, belittling comments are comments that serve the propose of making a person feel inferior or stupid. Like if I responded that belittling was a sixth grade word and that I'm not here to be your Language Arts teacher, or if I instructed you to invest in a dictionary before engaging on a forum.

Oh, so you CAN'T pull out any examples?

And, by the way:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

and...

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20060405bingo.png

You've already had me mark three squares. Keep it up.

Hellenion reports only one official Demos (3 or more members), and seven Proto-Demos. This is a flat-line number for years. While they do not make membership numbers public, compare their income statements (which they make public as a non-profit) with membership dues, and you can calculate a max number of members in the mid 30s. This is another stagnant number.

And? They've only just recently been able to start advertising. If you were actually a member of Hellenion, then you'd probably know that, cos that also seems to be something that haven't made public -- unless, of course, you're a regular reader of PanGaia.

You did not do what I said.

Actually, I did. You can't just pull numbers out of your arse and claim you said scenario and then insist that somebody who decided to do it themselves didn't just because the data they acquired from such task doesn't match what you claim yours is. Are you just making this up as you go along?

Furthermore, I noticed that you refuse to answer my question about what purpose you're trying to serve here other than being spiteful? If you had some truly constructive criticism to offer (that is, "criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions", as per Webster's New Millennium Dictionary), then maybe I'd understand your whys, but as it stands, you've just made spiteful post after spiteful post about people you very obviously want little or nothing to do with. Why, then, do you feel compelled to waste your time talking about them in such a manner on a forum you at least have some idea most of them are probably not going to read?

-- RJ

Theres

February 13th, 2008, 03:47 PM

wow man, why such a hostile tone? can this really be that personal an issue for you?

Tim was just stating the opinion his research has led him to. it's not one i happen to share, but what the heck.

YoungSoulRebel

February 14th, 2008, 03:06 AM

wow man, why such a hostile tone? can this really be that personal an issue for you?

Tim was just stating the opinion his research has led him to. it's not one i happen to share, but what the heck.

Hostility? Personal? Whatever. If you say so.

But honestly? He's presenting his "opinion" as indisputable fact; that's when it ceases being an opinion and starts being up for debate. And frankly, there are many factors that suggest the truth, the real fact, (at the very least) is quite the contrary.

Tim

March 10th, 2008, 03:01 PM

Hostility? Personal? Whatever. If you say so.

But honestly? He's presenting his "opinion" as indisputable fact; that's when it ceases being an opinion and starts being up for debate. And frankly, there are many factors that suggest the truth, the real fact, (at the very least) is quite the contrary.

I can tell you why it seems so personal for YoungSoulRebel. He is linked to that small clique that wants to consider themselves the true Hellenic Community. This group promotes an improvisational form of Hellenic revival that is more akin to Eclectic Neopaganism in Greek dress, and completely abandons reconstruction. As recons have started to become more vocal again, and began to reaffirm what is and is not Hellenismos, they are met with venom from Neopagans who want to espouse that they are Hellenismos, but want to practice some free-flowing improvisational spirituality.

Twinkle

March 10th, 2008, 03:24 PM

And that's the truth. There would be no issue at all if people would not claim to be practitioners of Hellenic Reconstruction...when what they are truly practicing is Hellenic Polytheism, Hellenic Paganism, or even eclectic neopaganism.

The clinging to a label that doesn't apply is what is causing all the venom. We see it all the time with Wicca. Now it's happening with Hellenismos. People are standing up and making a clear dividing line...and those that want the title...but want to practice what they want...are getting a tad pissy.

So be it. I'd rather have that than have Hellenismos become GreekWicca.

patch

March 11th, 2008, 12:12 PM

I can tell you why it seems so personal for YoungSoulRebel. He is linked to that small clique that wants to consider themselves the true Hellenic Community. This group promotes an improvisational form of Hellenic revival that is more akin to Eclectic Neopaganism in Greek dress, and completely abandons reconstruction. As recons have started to become more vocal again, and began to reaffirm what is and is not Hellenismos, they are met with venom from Neopagans who want to espouse that they are Hellenismos, but want to practice some free-flowing improvisational spirituality.

Woah. double back.
Who are you do define what is and what is not hellenic polytheism? Did the ancient greeks even have a definitive answer?
To clarify, were you accusing youngsoulrebel of being in a particular clique? Does this clique, if they do whatyou accuse them of; identify themselves of sole-ly recon?

If it's the word hellinismos you worry about. I'm a hellenic polytheist with heavy recon leanings.

Tim

March 11th, 2008, 01:30 PM

Woah. double back.
Who are you do define what is and what is not hellenic polytheism? Did the ancient greeks even have a definitive answer?
To clarify, were you accusing youngsoulrebel of being in a particular clique? Does this clique, if they do whatyou accuse them of; identify themselves of sole-ly recon?

If it's the word hellinismos you worry about. I'm a hellenic polytheist with heavy recon leanings.

See... more venom.:boing:

Twinkle

March 11th, 2008, 01:50 PM

Yikes.

Hellenismos is what it is. it cannot be undefined by those that want to practice whatever they want to and still call it Hellenismos.

Kadynas

March 11th, 2008, 11:09 PM

Yikes.

Hellenismos is what it is. it cannot be undefined by those that want to practice whatever they want to and still call it Hellenismos.

So what exactly is it about Neokoroi that you guys seem to consider "not Hellenismos"?
Where specifically are they not being orthopraxic?

Maybe this is something that's been hashed out to death already, but indulge the newbie... ;)

For my part I haven't seen anything there that would be somehow "unworthy" of the label Hellenismos, so I'm not sure what you guys are referring to...

patch

March 12th, 2008, 02:47 AM

See... more venom.:boing:

I take offence to that actually.
Considering I just TOLD you I don't identify under the label 'hellenismos'.
Even so, did you ever stop to think that people who refer to themselves as practicing hellenismos but aren't strict recons do so because they don't understand the meaning of the term? Because there are a lot of labels, and I'm sure people get confused.
In addition, in my own defense. I am NOT an eclectic neopagan. I worship the greek pantheon, I do so in the greek religious format. I don't cast circles, do magic, worship other pantheons alongside or anything of the sort. I'm as close to recon as I can be realistically in my current living conditions. As mentioned above, I take offense to you implying such. In a very petty way that does appear like you are trying to score points.

Are you even a member of neokoroi? Seriously? Because I am and I see members who are strict recon and members who aren't, those who aren't IDENITFY themselves as such.
It's ironic because you have a chip on your shoulder about the hellenic community dying, yet this list grows more and more each day and you don't like it.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 06:31 AM

So what exactly is it about Neokoroi that you guys seem to consider "not Hellenismos"?
Where specifically are they not being orthopraxic?

Maybe this is something that's been hashed out to death already, but indulge the newbie... ;)

For my part I haven't seen anything there that would be somehow "unworthy" of the label Hellenismos, so I'm not sure what you guys are referring to...

You should probably reread that thread. I don't think that statement was ever made.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 06:39 AM

patch

March 12th, 2008, 11:05 AM

...am I even a member of neokoroi? You may take offence, but even this shows the cliquish mentality I'm talking about. Are you even a member of the YSEE? Come on. :zzzzZZZ:

Don't patronise. It dosen't look mature and is out of place in a debate.

That isn't me being cliquiy, thats me trying to work out why you make brash accusations and assumptions if you have no evidence. If you aren't a member, how can you see what goes on and is disscussed?

Kadynas

March 12th, 2008, 12:04 PM

You should probably reread that thread. I don't think that statement was ever made.

So that's not the "clique" you guys were referring to? My bad, seems it was implied by the person you quoted and their signature.
So if not, then who or what group are we actually talking about here?
If you're going to call people out, then call them out... otherwise it's just confusing and people are left to read between the lines and assume. :) And we all know what happens when people assume...

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 12:04 PM

Kadynas:

I never said anything about Neokoroi, nor did I say anything about you not being *worthy* of calling yourself a practitioner of Hellenismos.

I was making a general statement about people wanting to redefine Hellenic Reconstuction to meet their own needs.

I apologize for any confusion.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 12:09 PM

Agaliha

March 12th, 2008, 12:13 PM

I'm saying no one made that statement, and I'm not going to be back into defending a statement I did not make from someone who's intent is to derail the conversation by hijacking the thread.

Yeah, to put this to rest, I searched the thread here for references to Neokoroi and Tim didn't say anything about them.

See here:
http://mysticwicks.com/search.php?searchid=2463472

And it seems that this rather vague post by Twinkle is what started the confusion:
http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3462173&postcount=61

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 12:16 PM

Don't patronise. It dosen't look mature and is out of place in a debate.

That isn't me being cliquiy, thats me trying to work out why you make brash accusations and assumptions if you have no evidence. If you aren't a member, how can you see what goes on and is disscussed?

I have presented evidence, you just refuse to accept it.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that most Hellenic lists and forums are dead. You do not need to be a great mathematician to figure out that since the end of 2004 the HellenicPagan Yahoo Group (the largest and most active online list/forum) has only increased membership by roughly 175 members, and at the same time both total posts to the group, and the average post per member has continued to decline.

It is no great feat to do a search of Google and Yahoo, and see that most websites that talk about Hellenismos and Hellenic Polytheism are not Hellenic sites, or a blog search to see that there are less than a handful of bloggers creating material.

It does not take a brain surgeon to see that the "Improvisational Hellenic Revivalists" (my phrase) are promoting certain sites and groups as the "Hellenic Community," and these sites are all intermingled in some way, are owned and operated by very few (and those few owning several), and that these few sites all cross reference each other... with each of these groups cross pollinating each other with members.

It also is not a stretch to recognize that those who are the most vehemently arguing against what I have had to say, and are unwilling to accept blatantly obvious facts, are each in some way linked to the very clique that I am talking about.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 12:23 PM

So that's not the "clique" you guys were referring to? My bad, seems it was implied by the person you quoted and their signature.
So if not, then who or what group are we actually talking about here?
If you're going to call people out, then call them out... otherwise it's just confusing and people are left to read between the lines and assume. :) And we all know what happens when people assume...

You make a valid point...and you are absolutely right. We should be repudiating actual people, instead of tiptoeing around the elephant in the room.

I'll come out and say it.

My personal opinion is this:

What Sannion has done (or is attempting to do) to Hellenismos is shameful. He has attempted to completely redefine this religion to suit his own needs. His website is deceptive in that it leads the reader to believe it is Recon. If one reads the articles with a practiced eye, we can see that quite a few things he writes are not Reconstructionist. For example, the Hellenismos along with Discordianism article. That's not to say that there aren't *some* good articles on his site...there are. But they are not all Recon...and he makes no distinction as to what is, and what isn't.

What makes this particularly reprehensible is that at one time he was a Reconstructionist. He has since moved on from that and as become multireligious, I daresay even eclectic. Yet he continues to allow people to believe that he is a Hellenic Reconstructionist. He knows better, and he allows that deception to sit out there.

On other threads on here we see how people turn to him as the answer for all things Recon...and the fact is, Sannion is *not* a Hellenic Reconstructionist. He is multireligious...has his own personal pantheon, does not practice in an orthopraxic manner, and he has allowed his own personal gnosis to state to all that he is now an oracle of Dionysus.

None of this is considered Hellenismos...and in fact, the discussion of these sorts of practices has been discussed by ethnic Greeks on the YSEE Forum board. They repudiate these practices as not being consistent with Hellenic belief or practice. Perhaps it would behoove everyone reading this thread to check it out.

People need to ask themselves: Are they devoted to Sannion, or devoted to their Gods? Do you want to worship as Sannion does or do you want to worship orthopraxically? Are you a Recon, or are you a Hellenic Polytheist that wants to worship in a way "that feels right?"

I have been hesitant to speak out, as I know that Sannion has quite a devoted following....and that is the whole problem.

You do not need to have another mortal be a conduit to you and your Gods. All you need to do is practice.

Kadynas

March 12th, 2008, 12:52 PM

Thanks Twinkle for your clarification. :)

Just for the record, I wasn't trying to start a war here, I just wanted to know who and what was being referred to. Tim quoted a post by YSR and said he was part of a specific "clique" that wants to be seen as "the" Hellenic community. Looking at YSR's signature, you see his affiliation with Neokoroi. I pointed it out because I wanted to know whether or not that was the "clique" being referred to, because like Twinkle said, I'd prefer not to deal with unknown elephants. LOL

So Tim, I'm not trying to challenge your position, just to clarify it.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 01:02 PM

You're welcome, Kadynas...and I realize you weren't trying to start a war. The truth of it is, conflict of any kind makes me sick to my stomach. Having said that, some things need to be said regardless of how uncomfortable it makes things.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 01:24 PM

So Tim, I'm not trying to challenge your position, just to clarify it.
Well, if we were to discuss Neokoroi specifically, it does provide a surface appearance of being a Hellenic Reconstructionist (and therefore Hellenismos) organization, but it does have itself intermingled with the "Improvisational Hellenic Revivalists" that I mentioned earlier. Oinokhoe (aka erl_queen, aka Kate, aka Sarah Winter, aka depends on the venue), up until the last month or so, had been organizing and running the show over there. Many of their members and participants (like Oinokhoe, Sannion, YoungSoulRebel, and others) are not practitioners of Hellenismos but, in fact, use a methodology more based personal gnosis or inspiration, and are often "mutlireligious" (read eclectic). While this organization was setup to and seems to attempt to stay focused on traditional worship, this Improvisational Hellenism (read Eclectic Neopaganism) cannot help but seep into their literature. We could nickel and dime each newsletter and article line by line, but the simple question is how can an organization stay Reconstructionist when some of the most influential members are not?

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 01:41 PM

And that's the truth.

No, that's Tim using Appeal to Ridicule, Personal Attack, and Poisoning the Well (with false "information", nonetheless) as a roundabout way of invoking Danth's Law, id est, declaring himself "winner".

The fact is, he's making sweeping generalisations based on nothing but the fact that I'm daring to disagree with him. Fifteen years ago, he was probably the kind of Wiccan who declared anybody who dared to disagree as being "Xtian" -- no matter how long said latter person had been dedicated to Wicca.

There would be no issue at all if people would not claim to be practitioners of Hellenic Reconstruction...when what they are truly practicing is Hellenic Polytheism, Hellenic Paganism, or even eclectic neopaganism.

Pardone moi?

If we're still attacking me here, I can assure you, I have NOTHING to do with Spira -- in fact, one of their members called me a "bigot" a few weeks ago on the KA list for saying "Eclectic Neo-Paganism using the names of the Hellenic Gods is not Hellenismos", and that's two conjunctions and an elipsis short of verbatim. You're probably more than welcome to go join that list and read the archives to see whether or not I'm right -- please, do NOT take my word for it.

But hey, we're not talking about my religious beliefs or practises here. We're talking about cliques -- and you and Tim here are quite obviously proving presence of a "clique" I've nary seen the likes of since leaving high school, shit, ten years ago. OK, OK, nine years ago this November (and with enough credit to graduate early). Hell, I left the Goth scene cos I'm too ****ing old for cliques.

The clinging to a label that doesn't apply is what is causing all the venom. We see it all the time with Wicca. Now it's happening with Hellenismos. People are standing up and making a clear dividing line...and those that want the title...but want to practice what they want...are getting a tad pissy.

So be it. I'd rather have that than have Hellenismos become GreekWicca.

I'm sure many are, like those titmice in Spira. But I also think you're blowing shit out of proportion and tossing about false accusations in an effort to support your friend. More people should regard friendship and friends as something one will vehemently defend. Still, I was socialised by non-Geek parents. We did not fall for the Geek Social Fallacies. Friends can be, and often are, wrong, and a good friend will say "Hold on Bobby, step back for a sec and look at what you're saying here."

To your credit, you're speaking more generally while Tim is making a prsonal attack based on nothing -- even going to my Blog proves nothing more than my penchant for collecting knick-knacks, creating bad neo-primitivist oil paintings, and babbling on like an old lady at a tea house. I don't discuss my religious practises on-line. There's a Maxim of Delphi that has been translated as "Be (religiously) silent" -- this can mean a large number of things, but for now, I simply just don't discuss my religious practises with those who don't need to know. People in group rituals? Totally need to know at least some things. Everybody who clicks a link to my blog? Don't need to know.

But hey, for what it's worth, Burkert's Greek Religion is, like, totally my Bible, dude. I live in tunics and wreaths of bay laurel. My cat's name is Aristotle. My claims of cosplaying as Dr. Teeth? Pure rubblish. I only cosplay as Socrates and Caligula -- as all good Recons should. I'm not even a member of Nova Roma, just Sodalitas Graeciae -- please pardon if that's the wrong Latinisation, there was a crash in my Greek keyboard set. In fact, I'm slowly unlearning English and replacing my first language with Biotic Greek -- only poseur Recons know Attic!

:hehehehe:

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 01:47 PM

No, that's Tim using Appeal to Ridicule, Personal Attack, and Poisoning the Well (with false "information", nonetheless) as a roundabout way of invoking Danth's Law, id est, declaring himself "winner".

Do you know what is poisoning the well? ...stating that easily verifiable facts are false information is poisoning the well. You are the one with unsupportable claims. You are the one poisoning the well.

Where did you come from anyway? Just pop in to hijack the thread?

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 01:52 PM

Actually, YoungSoulRebel, I was pretty much ignoring you...but since you've quoted me, I'll go ahead and respond to you as best I can.

1. If you call "poisoning the well" as Tim stating clear, factual information that can be verified, then I suppose you would be right. The fact that you disagree with him is not really an issue. It's the way you present your arguments that really invalidates your opinion.

2. I'm not really talking about Spira either....so on that we have no issue. And, in terms of cliques...you are relatively new to the religion and the online venues regarding it. I believe you said that in one of your posts, please feel free to clarify if I am wrong. What you *think* you know is one thing. If you actually chose to do what Tim asked you to do to *prove* that what he was saying was correct, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You went into it with righteous indignation and not an open mind as to what the true facts of the matter are.

You came out swinging, and you got a left front right back at you. Don't blame Tim for that.

I think evidence of the responses that we've received from yourself and some of the members here are actually pretty good indicators of what we're talking about. Apparently nothing is blown out of proportion, you are proving that with your over the top remarks to Tim.

Your remarks about Burkert's book, while made in jest, are really an indicator of what you feel about Reconstructionism. That's fine. Just don't claim to be a Recon and all will be well.

It should also be of note that I have quit speaking generally, as this causes confusion. In another thread I say exactly what I mean, and I have explained my reasoning.

You may disagree...in fact, I'm pretty sure you will. That's your choice.

patch

March 12th, 2008, 01:58 PM

Well, if we were to discuss Neokoroi specifically, it does provide a surface appearance of being a Hellenic Reconstructionist (and therefore Hellenismos) organization, but it does have itself intermingled with the "Improvisational Hellenic Revivalists" that I mentioned earlier. Oinokhoe (aka erl_queen, aka Kate, aka Sarah Winter, aka depends on the venue), up until the last month or so, had been organizing and running the show over there. Many of their members and participants (like Oinokhoe, Sannion, YoungSoulRebel, and others) are not practitioners of Hellenismos but, in fact, use a methodology more based personal gnosis or inspiration, and are often "mutlireligious" (read eclectic). While this organization was setup to and seems to attempt to stay focused on traditional worship, this Improvisational Hellenism (read Eclectic Neopaganism) cannot help but seep into their literature. We could nickel and dime each newsletter and article line by line, but the simple question is how can an organization stay Reconstructionist when some of the most influential members are not?

So you wont name the list, but you'll name drop people? Some of which don't actually identify themselves as hellenic recon?
I know oinokhoe dosen't, sannion calls himself greco-egyptian syncretist.

To clarify, what is your problem here?
The fact these people define themselves as hellenic when they aren't strict recon? Or the term hellenismos or 'hellenic recon'? If it is the latter then whilst I understand, you haven't provided evidence to say these people DO claim they are these things, and whether they actually are or not.
If it's the former, I don't get it. People don't have to be strict recon to worship the greek gods.

Also, even if it is clearly defined as such; how do you feel about the use of UPG in reconstructionism then?

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 02:08 PM

Woah. double back.
Who are you do define what is and what is not hellenic polytheism?

Uh, he wrote some books and sells them via lulu.com? Dude, live in the now! LOL!

He has as much right as S. Kate Winter to say what is and is not HP or HR.

Did the ancient greeks even have a definitive answer?

Good question!

But hey, who cares that some of the things that were done in Athens may have been heresy in Sparta or that some of what was practised in Boeotia would never have been considered by an Athenian? Right? The only good answer is Tim's answer and all good Recons should know that!

To clarify, were you accusing youngsoulrebel of being in a particular clique? Does this clique, if they do what you accuse them of; identify themselves of solely recon?

Some do, and some without reason. Some don't and will very earnestly say such. Some did and then stopped. Tim is making broad generalisations and presenting nothing more than logical fallacies and flawed reason to make blanket attacks on a group of people he very obviously wants nothing to do with. He was only on, like, one of the e-mail lists in question just long enough to plug Hellenismos Today and try and defend himself to people who pointed out that they'd never heard of him and thus questioned his presumed "authority" on Hellenismos.

Tim is thus a very bitter man because a few people on a yahoo group did not recognise that he has as much right to self-publish a print-on-demand book as Oinokohe.

I had been meaning to get around to reading his books, even have them on a private LJ-entry marked "Lulu Wish-List -- Books to Get Later", but his behaviour here is as much of a seller, to me, as Anne Rice's temper-tantrum on Amazon.com over bad reader-reviews of Blood Canticle. If he has this kind of an opinion of Hellenistai who aren't over on Mind-N-Magic, id est, who aren't a part of his clique, then why should anybody outside of said clique read his book?

I thought this kind of bull-pucky was for Goths and Satanists.

If it's the word hellinismos you worry about. I'm a hellenic polytheist with heavy recon leanings.

I practise Hellenismos. I may improvise or omit in areas where true Reconstruction of the ancient ways is impossible in this day and age, but I very much practise Hellenismos, and (barring a complete spiritual turn-around to someting that very obviously is not Hellenismos) nothing that Tim and "his clique" say or accuse me of will make me stop practising Hellenismos or stop saying that I do.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 02:08 PM

So you wont name the list, but you'll name drop people? Some of which don't actually identify themselves as hellenic recon?
I know oinokhoe dosen't, sannion calls himself greco-egyptian syncretist.
That would be why I said, "We could nickel and dime each newsletter and article line by line, but the simple question is how can an organization stay Reconstructionist when some of the most influential members are not?" Kadynas' question was if I thought Neokoroi was Hellenismos. This is my response.

To clarify, what is your problem here?
I guess you haven't been following the thread. You should read it.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 02:12 PM

Actually patch, erl_queen identifies as a Hellenic Polytheist and Spirit worker. She feels that Hellenic Polytheism and Hellenismos are interchangeable terms. That can be verified on hellenismos.us, under Tim's blog...Yes Virginia, There is a Zeus.

She wrote it herself.

In regard to Sannion, he has called himself a Syncretist, based on Reconstructionist methodology....which he actually does state that he he is both a Hellenic and Kemetic Reconstructionist. It's on the Neos-Alexandria home page if you'd like to verify that what I'm saying is correct.

Please, please, please....educate yourself before you start going feral.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 02:12 PM

@YoungSoulRebel

Talk about poisoning the well. You can't refute the information I presented so you are going to make personal attacks? Trollish behavior will only have negative consequences for you.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 02:17 PM

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 02:20 PM

Yikes.

Hellenismos is what it is. it cannot be undefined by those that want to practice whatever they want to and still call it Hellenismos.

I would agree with you, except for the fact that you have never one in this thread defined what IS Hellenismos. Instead, you have defined it by what it is not and said "there is (plenty) that is not Hellenismos" and a blanket definition of implying that Hellenismos and Hellenic Reconstructionism are one-in-the-same.

But which practises of ancient Hellas are Hellenismos? Only those of Attica? That excludes a lot of ancient Hellenic Polytheistic practises. If Sparta, Thebes, and other places are permissible Hellenismos, well, that's generally broad -- and that's even when one considers that this broad definition is simply what we already know and can theorise that the ancients absolutely did practise; after all, there are who knows how much in the way of "Lost Practises" that theoritical Orphism is hardly the end-all and be-all of.

Yes, it would be a stretch to adopt the McWiccan model and say "Hellenismos is whatever one wants it to be! omg! kuh-why!" Still, even saying that Hellenismos is strictly Ancient Hellenic Polytheism Reconstructionism is still a rather broad definition.

patch

March 12th, 2008, 02:22 PM

I guess you haven't been following the thread. You should read it.

I have been.
Stop evading questions with belittling comments.
So again, to claify. What is your problem?

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 02:25 PM

I have been.
Stop evading questions with belittling comments.
So again, to claify. What is your problem?

I'm not evading the question. I have been clear through the whole thread what the issue was I wanted to discuss. You and YoungSoulRebel just seems to want to derail and hijack the thread because you don't like the facts of the matter.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 02:26 PM

The thing of it is, Tim....anyone can have an opinion. However; one can have an educated opinion, and therefore, through debate, be able to prove that his opinion is more correct than another.

In the case of who is more right in terms of defining Hellenic Reconstruction...all we have to do is look at history to determine that, and then look at who is practicing what.

It's not *that* hard if one researches for themselves what is orthopraxic, and what is completely made up.

I have been.
Stop evading questions with belittling comments.
So again, to claify. What is your problem?

Honestly patch, that has been gone over on this thread, not once, but reiterated by myself, as well.

The comment was not belittling. It was merely telling you that this has been stated quite clearly, and for you to read it again. You've obviously missed it.

patch

March 12th, 2008, 02:28 PM

I'm not evading the question. I have been clear through the whole thread what the issue was I wanted to discuss. You and YoungSoulRebel just seems to want to derail and hijack the thread because you don't like the facts of the matter.

SO ANSWER THE QUESTION!

I was merely asking for clarification. Please can you condense your problem about cliques, who is and is not recon and who has the right to call themselves term X into one post, so it is easier to understand? Not just for me but for people who may want to join in.

I'd also like to know how contesting your points is classed as hijacking. Is any of it spam, or off topic?

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 02:29 PM

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 02:30 PM

I take offence to that actually.
Considering I just TOLD you I don't identify under the label 'hellenismos'.
Even so, did you ever stop to think that people who refer to themselves as practicing hellenismos but aren't strict recons do so because they don't understand the meaning of the term? Because there are a lot of labels, and I'm sure people get confused.
In addition, in my own defense. I am NOT an eclectic neopagan. I worship the greek pantheon, I do so in the greek religious format. I don't cast circles, do magic, worship other pantheons alongside or anything of the sort. I'm as close to recon as I can be realistically in my current living conditions. As mentioned above, I take offense to you implying such. In a very petty way that does appear like you are trying to score points.

You're right. At least in the sense that it DOES seem that "trying to score points" seems eerily to be exactly what he's doing.

But hey, he wrote a book that's on lulu.com -- he's therefore the authority on everything Hellenismos and is oh-so-obviously being told straight from the Gods of Hellas who is and is not practising the One True Hellenismos as defined by the Book of Tim.

Are you even a member of neokoroi? Seriously? Because I am and I see members who are strict recon and members who aren't, those who aren't IDENITFY themselves as such.
It's ironic because you have a chip on your shoulder about the hellenic community dying, yet this list grows more and more each day and you don't like it.

And he doesn't like it because some members of Neokoroi and other yahoo lists had the audacity to ask him who he was and what his credientials were in writing a book about Hellenismos. I think this was on Hellenismos-L, but damned if I can accurately remember anything further back than Adonia -- but then again, I'm a guy who celebrated Adonia and worships Adonis, so I'm probably not even 25% Recon in Tim's head.

I wish he'd just show us on the doll where we touched him, already. :rotfl:

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 02:32 PM

I would agree with you, except for the fact that you have never one in this thread defined what IS Hellenismos. Instead, you have defined it by what it is not and said "there is (plenty) that is not Hellenismos" and a blanket definition of implying that Hellenismos and Hellenic Reconstructionism are one-in-the-same.

But which practises of ancient Hellas are Hellenismos? Only those of Attica? That excludes a lot of ancient Hellenic Polytheistic practises. If Sparta, Thebes, and other places are permissible Hellenismos, well, that's generally broad -- and that's even when one considers that this broad definition is simply what we already know and can theorise that the ancients absolutely did practise; after all, there are who knows how much in the way of "Lost Practises" that theoritical Orphism is hardly the end-all and be-all of.

Yes, it would be a stretch to adopt the McWiccan model and say "Hellenismos is whatever one wants it to be! omg! kuh-why!" Still, even saying that Hellenismos is strictly Ancient Hellenic Polytheism Reconstructionism is still a rather broad definition.

Ok. For you...one more time I'll say it:

Hellenismos is Hellenic Reconstruction. You'll see it defined that way all over the net, in Old Stones, New Temples, and by the ethnic Greeks of YSEE.

Reconstruction is an orthopraxy. It means that you practice a certain way, you follow Hellenic thought and belief. Personal innovation is a must, but it must be done in a way that is orthopraxic. If it's not orthopraxic, and following Hellenic belief aand thought, then you (the general you) are not practicing Hellenic Reconstruction.

It's really that simple.

So...worshiping only one or two Gods in the pantheon is not Hellenic Reconstruction. Not giving offerings is not Hellenic Reconstruction. Worshiping Gods from different pantheons is not Hellenismos. Allowing personal gnosis to effect practice in such a way that it is no longer orthoprzxic is not Hellenismos.

Personal theologies may differ...practice *must* remain the same.

If you need more clarification, I would be happy to assist you...but I think I've been pretty clear.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 02:33 PM

Are you even a member of the YSEE? Come on. :zzzzZZZ:

I'm not a Neo-Platonist with a sprinkling of "Recon" for flavour, so.... No.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 02:37 PM

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 02:38 PM

I'm not a Neo-Platonist with a sprinkling of "Recon" for flavour, so.... No.

You just make stuff up don't you?

patch

March 12th, 2008, 02:41 PM

My problem is the undefining of Hellenismos. That is my problem.

You have a website don't you?
Make an article defining the word.

Because I find some of the stuff said in this thread about people who wrongly identify themselves as such is a little unfair. Because It isn't a willful ignorane thing. People genuinely don't realise there is a diffence in words.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 02:47 PM

You have a website don't you?
Make an article defining the word.

Because I find some of the stuff said in this thread about people who wrongly identify themselves as such is a little unfair. Because It isn't a willful ignorane thing. People genuinely don't realise there is a diffence in words.

Ha!!! He's written numerous articles regarding that very thing. Check out hellenismos.us. It's all there.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 03:06 PM

What Sannion has done (or is attempting to do) to Hellenismos is shameful. He has attempted to completely redefine this religion to suit his own needs. His website is deceptive in that it leads the reader to believe it is Recon. If one reads the articles with a practiced eye, we can see that quite a few things he writes are not Reconstructionist. For example, the Hellenismos along with Discordianism article. That's not to say that there aren't *some* good articles on his site...there are. But they are not all Recon...and he makes no distinction as to what is, and what isn't.

Then you and I are in agreement.

I have a serious issue with Sannion. While he does have some interesting things to say, even a few insightful ones, most of the time, I take him with a grain of salt. Other times, I end up kill-filing his e-mail because I'm sick of his ego and patronising attitude toward anybody who isn't a by-proxy member of his obvious cult of personality. If one on the Neokoroi list goes back far enough, they'll find a post in a thread about Hellenic death rites where he states, practically verbatim, that he's "dead serious" about starting his own hero cult. This came up mere weeks about deriding Kyrene's screen-name change to "Pythis_Hiera" as "hubristic", I shit you not.

I'm associated with Neokoroi for my own reasons. First and foremost, there are a lot of valuable people in that group, be they Recon or very admittedly not. It is most definitely the most active e-mail list about all flavours of Hellenic Polytheism -- it may not be the most populated, but it's active and many of the active members are truly valuable people.

What makes this particularly reprehensible is that at one time he was a Reconstructionist. He has since moved on from that and as become multireligious, I daresay even eclectic. Yet he continues to allow people to believe that he is a Hellenic Reconstructionist. He knows better, and he allows that deception to sit out there.

I compare him, in private, to Anton LaVey for this and similar reasons. He's charismatic and statistically, the amount of time he spends running his virtual mouth is that where some wisdom is spouted with some regularity, but he's less a spiritual leader than he is a character.

On other threads on here we see how people turn to him as the answer for all things Recon...

Notice how I have never been one of those people.

...and the fact is, Sannion is *not* a Hellenic Reconstructionist. He is multireligious...has his own personal pantheon, does not practice in an orthopraxic manner, and he has allowed his own personal gnosis to state to all that he is now an oracle of Dionysus.

...so tempted to say something here.....

None of this is considered Hellenismos...and in fact, the discussion of these sorts of practices has been discussed by ethnic Greeks on the YSEE Forum board. They repudiate these practices as not being consistent with Hellenic belief or practice. Perhaps it would behoove everyone reading this thread to check it out.

Honestly? The behaviour of "ethnic Greeks" on various yahoo groups, on the occasions that they do pop up, strikes me as pomposity rivalling even Sannion's. Maybe one in the last five or six has not been bringing the attitude of "OMGZ I am Greek and therefore I know EVERYTHING!" -- even though they're recommending salting the earth in ritual when very reputable archaeologists will state with alarming regularity that the ancient Greeks even knew how ridiculous that was. Even when the practises they describe are more similar to the 18th Century Neoplatonism that was "trendy" among European intellectuals of the day and very little like the practises described by even Plutarch. I'd give examples if I wasn't on my way out for a late lunch in ten minutes.

People need to ask themselves: Are they devoted to Sannion, or devoted to their Gods? Do you want to worship as Sannion does or do you want to worship orthopraxically? Are you a Recon, or are you a Hellenic Polytheist that wants to worship in a way "that feels right?"

I have been hesitant to speak out, as I know that Sannion has quite a devoted following....and that is the whole problem.

You do not need to have another mortal be a conduit to you and your Gods. All you need to do is practice.

Well, the accusations of Tim implying that I'm a "devotee of Sannionism" is highly inaccurate, at the very least. And honestly, your comments have seemed to support that baseless accusation. Sannion knows what *I* think of him and he knows it's far from favourable -- unless, of course, he's filled his ego to near-bursting levels of self-deception.

To his credit, though, I will say that on the Neokoroi list, Sannion doesn't claim to be "totally HR" -- he claims he's Hellenic-Kemetic syncretic. Honestly, I don't know enough about ancient Egyptian practises to say if that's even somewhat true, but based on Neokoroi activity, it's at least been about a year since he claimed to be HR in any form. I have only a passing familiarity with how he defines himself on other Hellenic lists, and I haven't really any clue at all what he claims in private e-mails. His website has a few diamonds in the rough, but I've never recommended it to anybody who has asked me for information on Hellenismos, and I think I only sent one person a link on AIM to some essay of his I thought was hilarious.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 03:07 PM

Ha!!! He's written numerous articles regarding that very thing. Check out hellenismos.us. It's all there.

In addition, the word was defined long before I published anything. In fact, as much as YSR would like to disparage my books, I do cite Drew Campbell, Sarah Winters, and Sannion as references when I made the statement Hellenismos is reconstruction.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 03:10 PM

Because It isn't a willful ignorane thing. People genuinely don't realise there is a diffence in words.

I wanted to address this, patch.

I would agree with you that the newbie, who goes on and reads from certain vocal and influential people Hellenic Polytheism that the words are interchangeable, and then goes on to read what these people actually believe and practice are being duped into believing that they are practitioners of Hellenic Reconstruction. I get that.

What I don't get is the venom that we've seen from people that are so devoted to those individuals that they don't look at the facts, and they aren't willing to let go of a label that they are told doesn't apply.

I further don't understand why these influential people continue to perpetuate falsehoods . To me, it seems deliberately deceitful, and a way to undefine Hellenismos to meet *their* needs, and not the Gods.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 03:20 PM

Many of their members and participants (like Oinokhoe, Sannion, YoungSoulRebel, and others) [snip] ...but the simple question is how can an organization stay Reconstructionist when some of the most influential members are not?

I'm influential?

When the hell did this happen?

According to Sannion and Kate, "everybody has [my] e-mail on kill-file" and Todd thinks I'm a "dangerous sociopath" because I had the audacity to tell him in a private e-mail that he should stop humiliating and otherwise bullying people on KA just because he can.

You're very obviously talking out of your backside, Tim.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 03:23 PM

And he doesn't like it because some members of Neokoroi and other yahoo lists had the audacity to ask him who he was and what his credientials were in writing a book about Hellenismos. I think this was on Hellenismos-L, but damned if I can accurately remember anything further back than Adonia -- but then again, I'm a guy who celebrated Adonia and worships Adonis, so I'm probably not even 25% Recon in Tim's head.
Actually, my credibility was not the big issue, though many people felt the need to comment on a book they never read. The big issue was with Kyrene and the guy from Spira, who got pissy because I repeated the definition that Hellenismos is reconstruction. A definition that Kyrene was using on her own websites... and it happened on HellenicPagan. You should probably join Hellenic_Recon.

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 03:25 PM

I'm influential?
No... I said "some of the most." You really like twisting posts, don't you?

David19

March 12th, 2008, 03:27 PM

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 03:28 PM

Tim

March 12th, 2008, 03:30 PM

I'm a bit confused by why people are saying he's not a recon anymore. I know he's moved on from being a strict Hellenic recon, but, as far as I know, he's now Greco-Egyptian recon (http://neosalexandria.org/), it's not putting 2 unrelated things together and it's not eclecticism, as far as I can tell, as the religion was practiced in ancient times in Egypt (by both Greeks and, I think, Egyptians?).

Maybe he's done more that I'm unaware of, though.
What he is doing is not reconstruction. That may have been the intent when he started down that road a few years back, but that is not where he is at now.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 03:32 PM

I'm a bit confused by why people are saying he's not a recon anymore. I know he's moved on from being a strict Hellenic recon, but, as far as I know, he's now Greco-Egyptian recon (http://neosalexandria.org/), it's not putting 2 unrelated things together and it's not eclecticism, as far as I can tell, as the religion was practiced in ancient times in Egypt (by both Greeks and, I think, Egyptians?).

Maybe he's done more that I'm unaware of, though.

Nope. It's Eclecticism at it's finest...or maybe multi religious. It isn't reconstruction.

David19

March 12th, 2008, 03:35 PM

I compare him, in private, to Anton LaVey for this and similar reasons. He's charismatic and statistically, the amount of time he spends running his virtual mouth is that where some wisdom is spouted with some regularity, but he's less a spiritual leader than he is a character.

I think that's a little unfair, 'cause from what I've read, by Anton's own daugther, he drank a lot, violent and physically abusive to his wife, was cruel to his daughter, Zeena's dog, and quite a few other things. Now, I don't know Sannion, but I'm not sure if I'd compare him to that.

David19

March 12th, 2008, 03:40 PM

What he is doing is not reconstruction. That may have been the intent when he started down that road a few years back, but that is not where he is at now.

Nope. It's Eclecticism at it's finest...or maybe multi religious. It isn't reconstruction.

Ok, thanks for telling me, I didn't know some of the other stuff, and I don't know too much about the Greeks in Egypt or how the religion was practiced, so I can't say if he's successfully reconstructed it or not.

Phoenix Blue

March 12th, 2008, 03:53 PM

I wish he'd just show us on the doll where we touched him, already.

ADMIN MODE

Show some respect.

Trollish behavior will only have negative consequences for you.

Yes, it will -- and an admin will take care of that. Report it and move on.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 06:27 PM

Your remarks about Burkert's book, while made in jest, are really an indicator of what you feel about Reconstructionism. That's fine. Just don't claim to be a Recon and all will be well.

On what basis are you giving this advice?

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 06:34 PM

@YoungSoulRebel

Talk about poisoning the well. You can't refute the information I presented so you are going to make personal attacks? Trollish behavior will only have negative consequences for you.

Disagreement is not trolling.

Are you sure that you aren't Sannion? You're starting to sound a lot like him.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 06:40 PM

I have been.
Stop evading questions with belittling comments.
So again, to claify. What is your problem?

Obviously you and I and the all-too-definitive "cliques" -- or... uh... SOMETHING!

Aren't you paying attention! LOL!

I think what you and I and Tim and Twinkle practise is all quite similar, much of it possibly even interchangeable, but you know, you and I aren't part of their clique! We deny four-corner cubic reality! Our religion is WRONG! :rotfl:

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 06:41 PM

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 07:06 PM

Ok. I think that we can all communicate more effectively if we checked our attitudes a bit.

I don't believe I've treated you badly, YSR, and I don't believe that Tim has done anything but be blunt...which is how he is...as are you.

I'm not in a clique, don't want to be in a clique, nor would I claim to be the most learned, the authority, the leader, or the Grand PoohBah of Hellenismos.

What I am is a person that is stating definitively what my issues are and who they are with.

I'm sorry...but you *did* come off as a turd, and frankly, still are.

I'd love to be able to talk with you in a way that didn't have you acting snarky and sarcastic.

I would like to try. It's up to you if you want to continue the conversation it its current vein.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 07:30 PM

SO ANSWER THE QUESTION!

I was merely asking for clarification. Please can you condense your problem about cliques, who is and is not recon and who has the right to call themselves term X into one post, so it is easier to understand? Not just for me but for people who may want to join in.

I'd also like to know how contesting your points is classed as hijacking. Is any of it spam, or off topic?

Well, just for the sake of hij-- sane discussion and returning to the question deceptively posited as the subject of this thread, I feel like offering my own thoughts on the subject:

1) Who is and is not "recon"?
Basically, Reconstructionism (while not a dictionary-defined word, may I point out) is what it sounds like. It is an attempt to re-construct something as a movement, in this case, the polytheistic religious practises of ancient Hellas. This is actually up for a little more debate than it may seem, if only because there is, comparatively, very little in the way of definitive information stating what the ancient Hellenes did and did not do. Much of it was destroyed by the rise of Christiandom and, in reality, it was Islamic people who found, protected, and preserved many ancient Greek writings for purely historical and educational purposes. As a result of much "lost" material, we're pretty much relying on archaeologists to hypothesize and theorise on what "the ancients" did and did not do, in the areas where Plutarch, Herodotus, and some others didn't touch.

How a religious reconstructionist should regard this hypothetical and theoretical information definitely seems to vary between recons -- the beliefs and opinions get more and more harshly divided when theoretical practises are left to "armchair archaeologists" and admitted modern improv. This is where I, personally, take a note from the Asatruar whom I know personally and define "Reconstructionism" as "the practise of Reconstructing and reviving ancient religious practises where possible and making educated attempts at 'filling in the blanks' where not quite as possible" and "Revivalism" as "the practise of simply reviving only practises one knows were definitely practised by an ancient people". I highlighted "educated attempts" because there is a major difference between saying "Hey, we know that This Festival about This Aspect of This Goddess was practised at Spring, but even archaeologists don't have an exact date, yet I and they know that it was a fixed annual festival -- here are some possible dates for celebrating a Neo-[Name of Festival]" from saying "Hey, I have this idea for a fest and my gut tells me to use the name of This One Fest cos it sounds cool, even though I know almost nothing about The One Fest".

There may very well be some people who disagree with me, but as I said, the terms "reconstructionist" and "reconstructionism" aren't even dictionary-defined, so obviously people are free to disagree with each-other where the points start to get murkier.

2) Who does and does not "get to" call their practises Hellenismos?

As best as most people can say, the term "Hellenismos" originated with Emperor Julian to define "the religious practises and culture of pre-Christian Hellas ". Christianity had not been around very long at Julian's time, so obviously there was still hella info on pre-Christian polytheism and culture at that time. All we have now are fragments, comparitively speaking, so if one wants to be a [i]real big stickler about defining "Hellenismos", considering the context of when said term was a neologism, not even Tim and Twinkle are practising "Hellenismos" in that context, they're practising a fragmented version of said, when compared to the "Hellenismos" that Julian knew.

But let's get realistic here. Realistically, even the Christianity practised by modern Orthodox Christians is not even the same Christianity practised by Saul or in Julian's time. Granted, Orthodox Christianity is much closer to said than even modern Catholicism; the point is, living religions, even Orthodox Judaism, grows with the times in manners appropriate to the religion. Hell, even the Amish have refrigerators, some even have cars owned and maintained by the community (no, I was never a Mennonite, but I have studied the Amish religion and culture for quite some time, just because I find their culture fascinating -- check out the documentary The Devil's Playground to see at least some of what I'm talking about with this analogy). Granted, unlike Orthodox Judaism and the Amish, Hellenismos does not have the privilege of an unbroken tradition, so as Hellenistai, those who practise Hellenismos have a lot more legwork in the area of self-education and commitment to practises that have not been those one has grown up with. But to be realistic, I'd say that there is a "percentage" where it can be reasonably said that one is no longer practising what can be justifiably construed as "Hellenismos", in Reconstructionist terms; personally (and other people's opinions may vary) when less than 75% of one's practises aren't somehow "reconstructed" from ancient practises, then one's practises are no longer "Recon" and, since I do agree with Tim and Twinkle in that I feel "Hellenic Polytheism with only some Recon leanings" is not the same as "Hellenismos", I have issue with people calling their practises "Hellenismos" at that point. Still, my own issues aside, I'm sure there are Orthodox Jews who feel Liberal/Reform Judaism is "not truly Judaism" -- similairly, I'm sure there are, let's say, "Reform Hellenic Polytheists with only the vaguest Recon leanings" are going to call their practises "Hellenismos" and, aside from running my mouth on the tubes, hell, even running with my mouth on the tubes, there's nothing I can do to stop them from calling themselves whatever they want to.

3) How do *I* define the "Hellenic Community"?

Hellenic community.... Wow... that's specific. I'd say that there are plenty of Pagans of various stripes that could justofiably be considered part of the "Hellenic community", but that's doesn't mean that what they're practising is Hellenismos" defined as Hellenic Reconstructionism.

Of course, I'll bet you ten dollars that both Tim and Twinkle are going to say that this post here is a "perfect example of hijacking the thread and avoiding the issue". I'll bet you.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 07:45 PM

1) Who is and is not "recon"?
Basically, Reconstructionism (while not a dictionary-defined word, may I point out) is what it sounds like. It is an attempt to re-construct something as a movement, in this case, the polytheistic religious practises of ancient Hellas. This is actually up for a little more debate than it may seem, if only because there is, comparatively, very little in the way of definitive information stating what the ancient Hellenes did and did not do. Much of it was destroyed by the rise of Christiandom and, in reality, it was Islamic people who found, protected, and preserved many ancient Greek writings for purely historical and educational purposes. As a result of much "lost" material, we're pretty much relying on archaeologists to hypothesize and theorise on what "the ancients" did and did not do, in the areas where Plutarch, Herodotus, and some others didn't touch.

That's not really true. The public religion of Ancient Greece has been thoroughly reconstructed. Reconstruction (at least online) has been going on for about 15 years, with some claims that people were practicing orthopraxically since the late 70's. Since I can't prove that...I'll go with what I know...which is the mid 90's. We have gleaned quite a bit of information on the *how* and *why* of practice. There's not a lot more to be done in terms of the public religion but start practicing publicly.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 07:50 PM

How a religious reconstructionist should regard this hypothetical and theoretical information definitely seems to vary between recons -- the beliefs and opinions get more and more harshly divided when theoretical practises are left to "armchair archaeologists" and admitted modern improv. This is where I, personally, take a note from the Asatruar whom I know personally and define "Reconstructionism" as "the practise of Reconstructing and reviving ancient religious practises where possible and making educated attempts at 'filling in the blanks' where not quite as possible" and "Revivalism" as "the practise of simply reviving only practises one knows were definitely practised by an ancient people". I highlighted "educated attempts" because there is a major difference between saying "Hey, we know that This Festival about This Aspect of This Goddess was practised at Spring, but even archaeologists don't have an exact date, yet I and they know that it was a fixed annual festival -- here are some possible dates for celebrating a Neo-[Name of Festival]" from saying "Hey, I have this idea for a fest and my gut tells me to use the name of This One Fest cos it sounds cool, even though I know almost nothing about The One Fest".

On this point we don't disagree. When information is lacking, we make educated comparisons with other cultures. Pulling it out of you butt is a different thing altogether. :)

If it makes sense in terms of Hellenic belief and practice then it's fine to put a modern innovation on it. This would apply with modern worship as well. It's perfectly fine to offer chocolate, or Coca Cola if that's what you like and want to share with the Gods.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 07:59 PM

But let's get realistic here. Realistically, even the Christianity practised by modern Orthodox Christians is not even the same Christianity practised by Saul or in Julian's time. Granted, Orthodox Christianity is much closer to said than even modern Catholicism; the point is, living religions, even Orthodox Judaism, grows with the times in manners appropriate to the religion. Hell, even the Amish have refrigerators, some even have cars owned and maintained by the community (no, I was never a Mennonite, but I have studied the Amish religion and culture for quite some time, just because I find their culture fascinating -- check out the documentary The Devil's Playground to see at least some of what I'm talking about with this analogy). Granted, unlike Orthodox Judaism and the Amish, Hellenismos does not have the privilege of an unbroken tradition, so as Hellenistai, those who practise Hellenismos have a lot more legwork in the area of self-education and commitment to practises that have not been those one has grown up with. But to be realistic, I'd say that there is a "percentage" where it can be reasonably said that one is no longer practising what can be justifiably construed as "Hellenismos", in Reconstructionist terms; personally (and other people's opinions may vary) when less than 75% of one's practises aren't somehow "reconstructed" from ancient practises, then one's practises are no longer "Recon" and, since I do agree with Tim and Twinkle in that I feel "Hellenic Polytheism with only some Recon leanings" is not the same as "Hellenismos", I have issue with people calling their practises "Hellenismos" at that point. Still, my own issues aside, I'm sure there are Orthodox Jews who feel Liberal/Reform Judaism is "not truly Judaism" -- similairly, I'm sure there are, let's say, "Reform Hellenic Polytheists with only the vaguest Recon leanings" are going to call their practises "Hellenismos" and, aside from running my mouth on the tubes, hell, even running with my mouth on the tubes, there's nothing I can do to stop them from calling themselves whatever they want to.

Ok. I have a couple of points that I want to make here:

1. Of course it's not perfect, but we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is *a lot* that we do know. We know Hellenismos is an orthopraxy. We have primary and secondary texts, we have the philosophers. We have archaeological evidence. There is so much that we do know in terms of belief and practice, that I don't think we can say "let's just throw the whole thing out because we're not sure that it's perfect".

2. I'm glad we agree on the use of the term Reconstructionist. You're either a Recon or you're not...Recon leanings, loose Recon, Recon inspired...just another word for Hellenic Polytheist.

3. I think we do have a responsibility to stop people from co-opting the label when it doesn't apply. A case in point is Wicca. Traditional Wiccans thought the same as you...and now Wicca is a generic term that encompasses anything and everything. I don't want Hellenismos to turn into GreekNeo-Wicca.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 08:03 PM

Actually, my credibility was not the big issue, though many people felt the need to comment on a book they never read. The big issue was with Kyrene and the guy from Spira, who got pissy because I repeated the definition that Hellenismos is reconstruction. A definition that Kyrene was using on her own websites... and it happened on HellenicPagan. You should probably join Hellenic_Recon.

Then obviously you and I are only remembering certain bits and pieces here and there -- and honestly, that was so long ago and I've been on so much pain medication for a very painful and near-crippling case of scoliosis (which, in my case, is resultant of a gross case of gynaecomastia and a subtle case of possible hypochondroplasic dwarfism), that I will freely admit that I'm not to be trusted on exacts, especially of on-line veritable flame-wars that took place about a year ago.

Now that you have mentioned it, yes, I do remember that end of the exchange, but I also remember what I brought up here, as well. And honestly? What I was thinking at the time, as well as a few less-vocal people I was conversing with on IM at the time, was "who the smeg is this guy?" People typically don't trust those they have no familiarity with and, as much as I've had issues with Sannion, Kate, and even Kyrene (though, as an aside, Kyrene and I are typically far more likely to get along than I and the former two, especially Sannion), and as much as I see flaw in some of the things they have said in the past and may say in the future, I will also point out that last year, I would have been far more likely to recommend Kharis than Hellenismos Today simply because I'm familiar with the author of the former more than I am with the author of the latter -- I would definitely add a suggestion to read not only Kharis but at least a dozen scholarly texts by reputable archaeologists, cultural anthropologists, and scholarly Hellenophiles. That's just how people work. If you had been an active member of that list for even six months before plugging your book, I'm sure your reception to the news of releasing it on lulu.com would have been at least a little bit warmer.

My opinion on Spira should be evident in other comments. I have no issue with calling their pracises "Hellenic Paganism" and thus implying that they're part of a much larger and more diverse "Hellenic community". But while I'm willing to say I may have considered it "Hellenismos" of some form a year ago, obviously my opinions on said have changed.

Still, I do find some other things stated in this thread to be wrong. I agree that omitting deities is not "Reconstructionism", but I also see historical evidence that at least gives strong evidence to suggest that many people paid cultus to one or two or three Gods or Goddesses in addition to honouring the much larger Hellenic pantheon -- is the idea of modern practitioners following that pattern somehow "not Hellenismos"? If you say it's not, then in all honesty, the archaeological and surviving historical evidence says otherwise.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 08:09 PM

Tim didn't actually plug the book. It was a topic brought up by a member of that group who had seen it on Amazon and asked if anyone had read it.

Tim simply decided to post on the list (which he had been a member on for over a year) to answer any questions about it. He was lambasted by those who never even read a page of it. That would include Kyrene.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 08:11 PM

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 08:27 PM

YSR - have you ever heard of the Church of Thessaly?

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 08:50 PM

:hehehehe:I have to say I'm liking you a lot more than I initially did, YSR.

I can only work off what you say, and quite frankly, your posts smacked of Sannion and Okinohe worship. I am relieved to see that this is not the case.

I am actually looking forward to discussing Hellenismos vs. Hellenic Polytheism isn more detail, but I'm thinking that that actually may need to go on another thread.

Maybe I had a bit of that as recently as last year, but honestly, a lot happens in even a year. I do like Kate tenfold more than Sannion, but I like her -- she's proved insightful, hundreds of times less self-absorbed, and at least a little more personable than her paramour. It was Sannion's comment about "being dead serious about starting his own hero cult" (maybe December of '06? definitely on the Neokoroi yahoo group) that had me write him off as having a spiritually (edit) invalid (/edit) opinion. On occasion, even since then, he says something funny or insightful, but it's never been enough for me to recommend his writing to people. Never. Even before "his own hero cult" commentary, I was getting a feel for a lot of people on the yahoo groups and hardly even mentioned my Neokoroi and Hellenion affiliations to those who didn't already know, just in case I found myself leaving.

But there are a lot of reasons for a person to get involved with Neokoroi. While the members are hardly 100% Recon, there are definitely many vocal/active people involved with that group who are. In addition to being, let's say, "Recon permissive" or arguably "Recon encouraged", unlike Elaion, mysticism and "Recon practises" are encouraged. I'd hesitate to say any of my own "mystical" practises are "Recon" in nature, but I do practise divination through scrying (something that many scholars have traced back to ancient Greece) and when I lived on a chicken and pig farm in the rural Midwest (during high school), I've examined entrails for "signs" or "visions" -- I've never been trained in either practises in definitely ancient Greek manners, but certain debatably "mystic" practises and experiences have always been a prominent part of my spirituality, and Elaion's website has at least suggested in the past (it's been almost a year since I actually checked it out) that encouraging mystic practises is along the lines of being "mentally unstable", and, well, I get enough people accusing me of being some kind of loon without even taking my religious and spiritual practises, beliefs, and experiences into consideration (I've mentioned my "gyanecomastia" in this thread -- let's just say I have a gender-related birth defect that many people, even Pagans, claim is reason enough to question my mental and emotional stability, and to elaborate, let me say that if those of us participating in this thread were to cosplay as historical Hellenic figures from the Alexander film, I'd make a very impassioned plea to get Bagoas).

And, mystical encouragement aside, Recon-friendliness aside, there are some genuinely good and nice people on the Neokoroi and Hellenion lists. My practises and beliefs only have some overlap with theirs (example: there was a recent Neokoroi thread about adapting modern U$ civic holidays "to an Hellenic Recon model"[???] and I was practically savaged for saying [paraphrased] "what's the point?"), but they're still decent people that I have no problem with other people knowing I associate with occasionally on-line.

I've only had two articles submitted to the Neokoroi newsletter, and both are ancient mythos re-written in a modern voice -- still, all important points of the mythoi in question are made, and it is simply the voice which differs (even so, certain mythos simply did not have much in the way of "difinitive points" -- the only one in the tale of Narkissos, for example, is that he stared himself into a flower, most versions claim he was cursed by Aphrodite, but more obscure versions conclude that he was in grief over the loss of his cross-dressing twin sister who looked essentially identical to him). Still, their newsletter is more than Hellenion has to offer these days, and I see how distributing it in my local area can become a starting point for discovering other Hellenic Recons and Recon-leaning Hellenic Polytheists in my area -- after all, community was a huge part of ancient practises. No, it's not perfect, but frankly, I just don't know enough "true Recons", not even on-line, to feel justified in trying to start a "strict Recon" newsletter; so I work with what's available until I either find a Recon publication or find enough Recons to justify starting one -- and even if I did, I'd still probably submit to He Epistole because it has familiarity through longevity and, again, can be a starting point for those seeking Reconstructionism.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 09:00 PM

I understand how you feel....I really do. I think you'd really like the Yahoo Recon group. You can actually speak with people that are Reconstructionists.

I don't have a lot to say about Neokoroi...other than what Tim has already said. If you feel a sense of community and welcom there...far be it from me to turn you away from that.

Truth be told, I think Kate is a very interesting person. I would also agree that she is insightful I don't agree with her calling herself a Hellenic Polytheist (when she feels Hellenismos and Hellenic polytheism are interchangeable terms), especially when she works as an oracle for Gods from different pantheons...and I also have issues with self proclaimed oracles...but that's a different discussion for a different day.

At the end of the day...I think people should believe what they want and practice what they want. I make no judgements on that. What I do feel that *all* of us have a responsibility to do is repudiate that which is false.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 09:07 PM

Nope. It's Eclecticism at it's finest...or maybe multi religious. It isn't reconstruction.

I dunno.... Usually, when I think of "Eclecticism", I think of practises far more "crazy quilted" than Helleni-Kemetic Polytheism with a strong importance placed on UPG (and some debatably "peer-confirmed personal gnosis"). I mean, when one says that one's taste in music are "eclectic" one doesn't typically mean "I like Punk and New Wave and and my own band but nothing else" -- they mean something more along the lines of "I like Country and Jazz and almost everything else".

Again, I'll admit ignorance of Kemetic practises or even "ancient Graeco-Egyptian syncreticism" (in fact, in my studies [which I admit have been limited, as I rarely step outside my apartment and have a very fixed and small income], he's the first person I've ever seen to mention such has "ancient verification"), so I'm extremely hesitant to say what he practises is "Recon" in any stretch of the definition; but I still wouldn't call it "Eclectic" because it's too ... "exclusive" to be so. While many self-proclaimed "Eclectic Wiccans" and such place a lot of importance on UPG, I also see that as the only practise he really has in common with those who self-define as practising some form of Eclectic Paganism.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 09:09 PM

Eclecticism, in the true sense of the word, means pulling from the best. There is no attempt to resolve differences, yet eclectism means shifting your paradigmn and pantheon to be culturally correct in practice.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 09:21 PM

I think that's a little unfair, 'cause from what I've read, by Anton's own daugther, he drank a lot, violent and physically abusive to his wife, was cruel to his daughter, Zeena's dog, and quite a few other things. Now, I don't know Sannion, but I'm not sure if I'd compare him to that.

I thought my comparison was obvious, but let me spell it out again:

Anton LaVey, publicly, was a very charismatic man who, even posthumously has a very apparent cult of personality containing many people who hang on to every word he published as if it were some kind of Divinely inspired brilliance. Yes, I know LaVey described himself as basically Atheistic -- but the way many self-identified "Satanists" conduct themselves is strikingly similar to Catholics who hang on every word the Pope speaks and refusing to believe that any other Christianity is valid Christianity (in fact, even the word "catholic" means "only, absolute"). The way LaVeyan Satanists who are part of the CoS claim that "any other Satanic org is a lesser Satanism" furthers this comparison.

Similarly, Sannion very obviously has a "personality cult" of people who literally hang on to every word he speaks, will "gang up" on anybody he decides is "fair game" , and never seem to question a single word he speaks.

PERSONAL LIVES ASIDE, (ffs) the similarities are striking. I don't know about his personal life any more than I know of LaVey's (frankly, I feel that even LaVey's own daughters aren't any more of a reputable persons to get personal info on LaVey than he was), but his "public persona" and the personality cult surrounding it are strikingly similar.

David19

March 12th, 2008, 09:28 PM

Maybe I had a bit of that as recently as last year, but honestly, a lot happens in even a year. I do like Kate tenfold more than Sannion, but I like her -- she's proved insightful, hundreds of times less self-absorbed, and at least a little more personable than her paramour. It was Sannion's comment about "being dead serious about starting his own hero cult" (maybe December of '06? definitely on the Neokoroi yahoo group) that had me write him off as having a spiritually valid opinion. On occasion, even since then, he says something funny or insightful, but it's never been enough for me to recommend his writing to people. Never. Even before "his own hero cult" commentary, I was getting a feel for a lot of people on the yahoo groups and hardly even mentioned my Neokoroi and Hellenion affiliations to those who didn't already know, just in case I found myself leaving.

My comment might be really unpopular, but I still like Sannion's writings, whether or not he's a recon or what he calls himself doesn't matter, largely, 'cause I'm not a follower of the Hellenic or Kemetic Gods, but I find I can take inspiration from some of his articles, plus I like the fiction he writes (on his site).

He also recently helped me out in learning more about Greco-Egyptian magic, which is something I want to learn more about for awhile.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 09:35 PM

OK. I think that we can all communicate more effectively if we checked our attitudes a bit.

Agreed.

And as is probably obvious, I am in the habit of responding to commentary as I read it. Maybe this is a "bad habit", but if so, obviously it'll take some time to change.

I don't believe I've treated you badly, YSR, and I don't believe that Tim has done anything but be blunt...which is how he is...as are you.

I will agree that you have not, but I definitely feel that Tim has delivered more than a fair share of ad hominem, personal attacks, and baseless accusations against my character. Perhaps this is another "bad habit" but when one decides to "fight dirty" against me, I fight back, similarly. In my experiences, logic only goes so far.

I'm not in a clique, don't want to be in a clique, nor would I claim to be the most learned, the authority, the leader, or the Grand PoohBah of Hellenismos.

What I am is a person that is stating definitively what my issues are and who they are with.

Well, obviously -- and for a time -- it should be apparent that I saw such as otherwise.

But I was also accused of Sannionism, and quite frankly, I find that far more insulting than being accused of participating in any "clique" that Tim may or may not be heading.

I'm sorry...but you *did* come off as a turd, and frankly, still are.

Here, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'd love to be able to talk with you in a way that didn't have you acting snarky and sarcastic.

I would like to try. It's up to you if you want to continue the conversation it its current vein.

Is this evidence enough that I agree with such a suggestion?

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 09:57 PM

That's not really true. The public religion of Ancient Greece has been thoroughly reconstructed.

I will agree -- but to an extent. I don't see people flocking to have festivals where we run people out of town, for starters.

Let's be honest: Some things that we definitely know about just aren't going to be reconstructed, for one reason or another.

Reconstruction (at least online) has been going on for about 15 years, with some claims that people were practicing orthopraxically since the late 70's. Since I can't prove that...I'll go with what I know...which is the mid 90's. We have gleaned quite a bit of information on the *how* and *why* of practice.

But even in Drew Campbell's book, there are things that we now know just weren't done in ancient times. One example that springs to mind is proclaiming "sponde!" with every libation, no exception, and (shit), something about "hekas hekas..." where either his translation was inaccurate or the instance in which he described using it was inaccurate. Even his description of using a "monthly hymn cycle" of the Orphic hymns (this is on the Hellenion website) not only goes beyond those God/Goddess-related Holy Days detailed by Hesiod, but the use of the Orphic hymns in such practises just wasn't an ancient custom -- though to his credit, he admits such.

The "hows and whys of practise" that go back to the mid-1990's, or at least that which has been published in literature "by and for Recons" is steeped in modernism and improvisation.

There's not a lot more to be done in terms of the public religion but start practicing publicly.

The lack of public practise is probably the largest obstacle to overcome, in this. If you ask me, the obstacle in question is only fostered by the Internet.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 10:01 PM

I don't see a problem with modernism as long as it is in line with orthopraxy.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 10:19 PM

Ok. I have a couple of points that I want to make here:

1. Of course it's not perfect, but we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is *a lot* that we do know. We know Hellenismos is an orthopraxy. We have primary and secondary texts, we have the philosophers. We have archaeological evidence. There is so much that we do know in terms of belief and practice, that I don't think we can say "let's just throw the whole thing out because we're not sure that it's perfect".

Well, I never suggested to "throw out the baby with the bathwater". :) Of course, I have seen Roman Recons on LJ claim that there's "no point" in public ritual cos "omg! teh Xtians will complain and blasphemise our Gods!" Uh, hello? That's what restraining orders are for.

2. I'm glad we agree on the use of the term Reconstructionist. You're either a Recon or you're not...Recon leanings, loose Recon, Recon inspired...just another word for Hellenic Polytheist.

I was never debating it in the first place -- so, obviously, I was incredibly puzzled by Tim's accusations against my thoughts, beliefs, and character and what I felt were your implied agreements with him about me. I wouldn't have gotten nasty if Tim didn't just suddenly, several weeks later, pop in and accusing me of being some kind of Sannion Yes-Man or what-not. It was uncalled for. Especially when he all but admits that he's not a part of Neokoroi, therefore has not seen the umpteen times Kate has insisted that she doesn't own Neokoroi and that she feels it's a concept defined by the collective -- I can, though, see how an admitted "outsider" may assume otherwise.

3. I think we do have a responsibility to stop people from co-opting the label when it doesn't apply. A case in point is Wicca. Traditional Wiccans thought the same as you...and now Wicca is a generic term that encompasses anything and everything. I don't want Hellenismos to turn into Greek Neo-Wicca.

Well, let me clarify: I'm actually torn on this point. I can see the pros and cons of both "camps", so to speak. On one hand, I agree with you, but on the other hand, I realise the power of numbers and, frankly, the number of "Recons" just isn't high enough (at least not high enough at this time) to make much of an impact. When I see the numbers getting higher in that respect, I'll make more of an effort to correct people who obviously don't know or believe in such a distinction. Until then, I see a largely uphill battle in an effort to make much impact in terms of "correcting" people -- it's not hopeless, but until the number of Hellenic Recons rises enough to make an impact, it's not going to do much.

Twinkle

March 12th, 2008, 10:19 PM

I have to go to bed now...but YRS...I wanted you to know how much I truly am enjoying talking with you, and I look forward to speaking with you more regarding Hellenismos.

I'm glad we gave each other a chance.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 10:43 PM

Cultus is not an issue, and the home paid homage to gods specific to the home. That's understood.

What should be made clear is that the whole pantheon *was* honored. If one understands Hellenic thought, you cannot worship part of the whole...you must worship the whole.

Agreed, though I do see a bit of misunderstanding coming up in this thread. Deriding the religious practises of others and insinuation of "knowing what Person really practises" has been done. Practises that certain people participating in this thread (OK, me) may not actually do but which can be easily be confused of doing.

As I've said, I choose not to discuss my religious practises publicly. Regardless, I don't need people who've never met me claiming that the on-line evidence of cultus and creating bad art which I have put on-line is somehow "evidence of not practising Hellenismos". While it's obvious now that we're in agreement on this point, when I see what damned well looks like accusations and even mere implications against me I'm not going to just sit back and twiddle my thumbs. I may not pay cultus to Hera, for example, but She is definitely a part of my religious and spiritual practises, and I will react to what I see as insinuations that just because I don't say such on a website I sporadically update, then such is evidence that I don't.

Did I stop making sense anywhere?

And it doesn't just stop with myself. I'm a Socialist, ferchrissakes. :T I don't know what Patch practises that I don't see on-line, for example, but if I saw what I thought were accusations against her character and insinuations of what she "must" or "must not" believe or practise, I may not be her friend, but I'll defend her by pointing out that her accuser simply doesn't know any more about her religious beliefs and practises than what she's made publicly available.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM

YSR - have you ever heard of the Church of Thessaly?

Admittedly, only in passing, on-line, of course. And, basically, if this computer's old enough that (and, as such, gets rebooted constantly), if I'm not immediately reading it and don't think to bookmark it, it's at a high probability of being forgotten about.

I did just find it again, so I'm bookmarking it for later.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 11:10 PM

My comment might be really unpopular, but I still like Sannion's writings, whether or not he's a recon or what he calls himself doesn't matter, largely, 'cause I'm not a follower of the Hellenic or Kemetic Gods, but I find I can take inspiration from some of his articles, plus I like the fiction he writes (on his site).

He also recently helped me out in learning more about Greco-Egyptian magic, which is something I want to learn more about for awhile.

And you're more than welcome to feel that way.

I just wanted to make it absolutely clear, off the yahoo lists, what my opinion of Sannion is. As I said, I do, in fact, find him dishing out occasional insight -- I just don't find it to be very often. He's definitely charismatic enough to turn Hellenismos into a true movement with bells and whistles and news coverage, even, if a) what he practised was Hellenismos and b) he felt inclined to do such. Regardless, I don't (nor do I have to) like him -- and he knows my opinion of him (or at least he has no reason not to). And I'm sure his writings have inspired some people toward Hellenismos.

I don't think he lacks potential to be a good person -- but I definitely do not feel he has been a very good Hellenic Recon, to say the least.

YoungSoulRebel

March 12th, 2008, 11:18 PM

I'm glad we gave each other a chance.

Ditto.

I normally avoid one-liners, but I just wanted to make an exception for this one time.

Kadynas

March 13th, 2008, 12:00 AM

Whew! Glad to see most everyone has kissed and made up for the most part! :)

I guess all I have to add is that I've enjoyed my time on Neokoroi so far... I like getting the different perspectives the members of the group offer, and especially love the newsletter. I see it - like any other yahoo group - as a bunch of different people coming together to share their views on things. Not everyone there claims to be a "full-on Recon" and it's usually quite clear to me who is and who isn't.

When it boils down to discussions of what is Hellenismos, and who can or can't claim the title, I can definitely see the point that noone wants Hellenismos being "watered down"... from the beginner's perspective, looking at this discussion, it seems the real question is what degree of "innovation" is too much. This seems to be the sticking point in most of the debates I've seen thus far.

patch

March 13th, 2008, 02:55 AM

Twinkle

March 13th, 2008, 06:03 AM

For me the answer is pretty clear cut:

If you are no longer in line with Hellenic thought and belief, and not practicing in an orthopraxic manner....then it's no longer Hellenismos.

If Modern Innovation is tested with Hellenic thought, and can be explained how it's orthopraxic, then it's fine.

Hellenismos is not a choke collar (thanks Fiamma)...there is quite a bit of "wiggle" room...but it is still a reconstruction of ancient practice.

It's still an orthopraxy. There are certain things that define the religion, and if you don't believe/aren't practicing in the correct cultural context, then you're no longer practicing Hellenismos.

It's not *bad*, just *different*.

Would you like some examples?

Twinkle

March 13th, 2008, 06:11 AM

Admittedly, only in passing, on-line, of course. And, basically, if this computer's old enough that (and, as such, gets rebooted constantly), if I'm not immediately reading it and don't think to bookmark it, it's at a high probability of being forgotten about.

I did just find it again, so I'm bookmarking it for later.

Let me tell you a little bit about it.

The founders are to initiated Wiccans. They are called a Duarchy that base their worship off two Gods, Hermes and Hekate, specificaly.

Now...they claim to be "the true religion" of Ancient Greece. They also base their whole church on gnosis handed down to the Duarchy from the Gods. The Duarchy promote themselves as the "teachers of the ancient religion of Greece"

1. The Church of Thessaly is a Wiccan coven with a veneer of Hellenism.

2. Basing a whole church on gnosis handed down to an elite few is no longer Hellenismos. See next point.

3. Claiming that it's "the true religion" of ancient Greece is not only insulting, it's plain out wrong.

4. Gnosis doesn't trump practice.

5. There is no leader in Hellenismos. Everyone has equal access to the Gods.

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 06:11 AM

Disagreement is not trolling.

Are you sure that you aren't Sannion? You're starting to sound a lot like him.
I think you need to go back and look. The comment you quoted was in reply to a post that was nothing but a personal attack, and had nothing to do with this disagreement.

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 06:13 AM

Quite the contrary.

I want to be just like you.

[bows dramatically]

What are you, 12?

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 06:37 AM

Then obviously you and I are only remembering certain bits and pieces here and there -- and honestly, that was so long ago and I've been on so much pain medication for a very painful and near-crippling case of scoliosis (which, in my case, is resultant of a gross case of gynaecomastia and a subtle case of possible hypochondroplasic dwarfism), that I will freely admit that I'm not to be trusted on exacts, especially of on-line veritable flame-wars that took place about a year ago.

Now that you have mentioned it, yes, I do remember that end of the exchange, but I also remember what I brought up here, as well. And honestly? What I was thinking at the time, as well as a few less-vocal people I was conversing with on IM at the time, was "who the smeg is this guy?" People typically don't trust those they have no familiarity with and, as much as I've had issues with Sannion, Kate, and even Kyrene (though, as an aside, Kyrene and I are typically far more likely to get along than I and the former two, especially Sannion), and as much as I see flaw in some of the things they have said in the past and may say in the future, I will also point out that last year, I would have been far more likely to recommend Kharis than Hellenismos Today simply because I'm familiar with the author of the former more than I am with the author of the latter -- I would definitely add a suggestion to read not only Kharis but at least a dozen scholarly texts by reputable archaeologists, cultural anthropologists, and scholarly Hellenophiles. That's just how people work. If you had been an active member of that list for even six months before plugging your book, I'm sure your reception to the news of releasing it on lulu.com would have been at least a little bit warmer.

My opinion on Spira should be evident in other comments. I have no issue with calling their pracises "Hellenic Paganism" and thus implying that they're part of a much larger and more diverse "Hellenic community". But while I'm willing to say I may have considered it "Hellenismos" of some form a year ago, obviously my opinions on said have changed.

Still, I do find some other things stated in this thread to be wrong. I agree that omitting deities is not "Reconstructionism", but I also see historical evidence that at least gives strong evidence to suggest that many people paid cultus to one or two or three Gods or Goddesses in addition to honouring the much larger Hellenic pantheon -- is the idea of modern practitioners following that pattern somehow "not Hellenismos"? If you say it's not, then in all honesty, the archaeological and surviving historical evidence says otherwise.

Twinkle already replied to this, but truth be told...

I did not go onto HellenicPagan to plug my book. I had been on the list for years, and received a digest with someone asking if anyone read the book. That question was replied to by 2-3 individuals who felt the need to bash the book without ever reading it. There where even claim that I was not Hellenic. So, I came on to clarify. It when from me being not Hellenic to being a recon elitist.

I never once promoted my books on any Hellenic List or forum. They were not the target audience. I most certainly would not have promoted it on HellenicPagan because I already knew the nature of the list.

I also don't have issue with people "adding" deities to the personal practices. I have a close friend that practices Hellenismos, Asatru, and Buddhism side-by-side. He is also working diligently on collecting as much information as possible on Greco-Buddhism. Practicing a dual-religion is not an issue, and adding deities is not an issue. I also advocate and promote that Hellenists should pay cultus to local nature divinities. I live in Pennsylvania, and there are divinities associated with rivers and mountains that are based the First Nation peoples of this area. That, in my opinion, is most certainly within the spectrum of acceptable practice.

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 06:49 AM

I dunno.... Usually, when I think of "Eclecticism", I think of practises far more "crazy quilted" than Helleni-Kemetic Polytheism with a strong importance placed on UPG (and some debatably "peer-confirmed personal gnosis"). I mean, when one says that one's taste in music are "eclectic" one doesn't typically mean "I like Punk and New Wave and and my own band but nothing else" -- they mean something more along the lines of "I like Country and Jazz and almost everything else".

Again, I'll admit ignorance of Kemetic practises or even "ancient Graeco-Egyptian syncreticism" (in fact, in my studies [which I admit have been limited, as I rarely step outside my apartment and have a very fixed and small income], he's the first person I've ever seen to mention such has "ancient verification"), so I'm extremely hesitant to say what he practises is "Recon" in any stretch of the definition; but I still wouldn't call it "Eclectic" because it's too ... "exclusive" to be so. While many self-proclaimed "Eclectic Wiccans" and such place a lot of importance on UPG, I also see that as the only practise he really has in common with those who self-define as practising some form of Eclectic Paganism.

Eclecticism, in the true sense of the word, means pulling from the best. There is no attempt to resolve differences, yet eclectism means shifting your paradigmn and pantheon to be culturally correct in practice.

Romanticism may be a better description, even though I feel eclecticism does describe what he does, and is a more understood term.

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 07:01 AM

I was never debating it in the first place -- so, obviously, I was incredibly puzzled by Tim's accusations against my thoughts, beliefs, and character and what I felt were your implied agreements with him about me. I wouldn't have gotten nasty if Tim didn't just suddenly, several weeks later, pop in and accusing me of being some kind of Sannion Yes-Man or what-not. It was uncalled for. Especially when he all but admits that he's not a part of Neokoroi, therefore has not seen the umpteen times Kate has insisted that she doesn't own Neokoroi and that she feels it's a concept defined by the collective -- I can, though, see how an admitted "outsider" may assume otherwise.
Frankly, your comments had both of us convinced you were a Sannionite. Heck, at one point, the wording in your posts had us thinking he was writing your replies for you.

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 07:13 AM

As I've said, I choose not to discuss my religious practises publicly. Regardless, I don't need people who've never met me claiming that the on-line evidence of cultus and creating bad art which I have put on-line is somehow "evidence of not practising Hellenismos". While it's obvious now that we're in agreement on this point, when I see what damned well looks like accusations and even mere implications against me I'm not going to just sit back and twiddle my thumbs. I may not pay cultus to Hera, for example, but She is definitely a part of my religious and spiritual practises, and I will react to what I see as insinuations that just because I don't say such on a website I sporadically update, then such is evidence that I don't.

Did I stop making sense anywhere?
First of all, I don't believe I made any specific comments about your website. I made a general comment about the lack of material being created, which is reflective of an overall decline in the "Hellenic Community." You took that personally, but that's on you. And my comments about the "community" and the cliquishness still stands. It is insulated and overall unproductive. What does Hellenion do? Nothing. If Zoe saw this she would give me her "you don't know" rant, but it is the truth... no updates to the site, no sponsored events, no publications (other then that calendar), no press releases, no nothing. Kate and Sannion had been the only ones promoting anything, and it is questionable if either is really Hellenic anymore... and they are definitely not recon, but they are diligent about undefining Hellenismos, and unraveling what it means to be recon.

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 07:21 AM

Tim

March 13th, 2008, 07:26 AM

I've always enjoyed neokoroi. Even the arguments are insightful in some way. Hellenismos or otherwise.

The above about recons raises another question in my mind, just how much give and take; in your opinions, would be 'allowed' from a re-con point of view? When does changes made to suit the modern times becaome so obvious that it stops being re-con?

For me the answer is pretty clear cut:

If you are no longer in line with Hellenic thought and belief, and not practicing in an orthopraxic manner....then it's no longer Hellenismos.

If Modern Innovation is tested with Hellenic thought, and can be explained how it's orthopraxic, then it's fine.

Hellenismos is not a choke collar (thanks Fiamma)...there is quite a bit of "wiggle" room...but it is still a reconstruction of ancient practice.

It's still an orthopraxy. There are certain things that define the religion, and if you don't believe/aren't practicing in the correct cultural context, then you're no longer practicing Hellenismos.

It's not *bad*, just *different*.

Would you like some examples?

I agree with Twinkle. There is a lot of wiggle room for modern adaptation, but it must be adaptation with the intent of making traditional practices doable within the modern world. For instance, casting a circle is not a modern adaptation; it is an unjustified innovation.