personal ponderings

[IndigoNightSky]

I was reading a post tonight on a local website. It was written by a Christian who was trying to convert others to her faith. She posed these questions;

1. Who are you depending on when your finances are not meeting your needs?

2. Who are you turning to in times of grief?

3. Who is the person that allows you to bridge the gap of impossible to impossible?

4. What is keeping you from a relationship with Christ?

My answers to these questions and the amazing similarity between them started me thinking about the relationship between myself and the universe.

1. Myself. If I find myself in need of money I find it within myself to work harder, or find a better job. (I wanted to ask her if Jesus was handing out money these days, but I refrained myself)

2. Myself. When I am grieving, I must go within myself to find the strength to persevere.

3. Myself. I have the power within myself to do anything that I need to do.

4. Myself. I accept personal responsibility for all of my actions, and do not need a scapegoat.

As I looked over my answers, I realized that in my version of spirituality that I had replaced Jesus with myself and that god was everything around me. Jesus was the son of god, and I am a daughter of the universe. :shift:

Darn, I think I need some sleep.

[TygerTyger]

1. Myself, money is just a means to an end and not an end in itself.

2. Myself, my family and my friends depending on who I have lost.

3. I don’t quite understand this question as I’ve never achieved anything “impossible”!

4. For a long time the Christian Church, then I realised that Christ preferred to preach outside the temple so as to communicate with as many as possible so now I’ve established my own relationship with him through his teachings (it’s very hard to keep it going though!)

[Brightshores]

Interesting set of questions there....

The answer to Question 1 - myself. I agree -people should take personal responsibility for their own finances. Anyway - didn't Jesus say that it's easier for a camel to fit into the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven? Sounds like that shoots the whole "Prosperity Gospel" theory right down.

2 - Myself and my loved ones
3 - The question doesn't even make sense.

4 - Frankly, I have developed a better understanding of Christ and a deeper respect for his teachings in the years since I left the Christian Church. I see him as part of a wider world spiritual tradition, rather than some isolated guy in the desert 2000 years ago. So - if anything, Christianity impeded my understanding of Christ. It's the whole "God, save me from your followers" thing that I saw on a bumper sticker once.

[Windsmith]

Sounds like she was trying to use the ol' politician's trick of parallel construction questions:

"Do you want better schools for your children?" Most people, especially parents, will answer "yes."
"Do you want affordable healthcare?" Everyone's going to answer yes.
"Do you want safer neighborhoods?" Again, a pretty universal yes.
"Vote for Joe!" No one said that Joe will deliver better schools, affordable healthcare, or safer neighborhoods. But the initial questions establish a pattern in the mind. The human mind likes patterns. So when the shill says "Vote for Joe!" the brain makes the last association and slots Joe into the pattern with the schools, the healthcare, and the neighborhoods.

So the woman is trying (unsuccessfully, IMO) to establish the same pattern; she sets up a series of questions that the reader is probably supposed to answer either "no one" or "myself" and then gives us the whammie: What is keeping you from a relationship with Jesus Christ? The idea is that, after answering the questions, we're supposed to feel awash in a sea of lonliness and despair, and our brain is supposed to slot in "Jesus Christ" as a bright, shinging alternative. It's barely prostelytizing. It's psychology - and poorly executed, at that. Like you point out, IndigoNightSky, Jesus ain't doling out the dough to his followers.

As you realized, for many of us, "myself" is a wonderful answer. Realizing that we have, in large part, control of our own lives and don't have to depend on any deity to do for us, is a liberating and heart-lifting discovery. If I'd found that website, I probably would've sent the woman an email thanking her for strengthening my love for my own religion!

[Tanya]

yep.. one of the reasons I stopped being Christian was because I thought it was infantile to go around as an adult whining to a higher power to give you what you need and groveling like a dog instead of standing up for yourself and saying "I am part of the god/goddess force in the universe. I will provide for myself as such.


I remember being in church once saying the Lord's prayer and found myself thinking,

"Our creator who art everywhere
hallowed be everyhing
thy kingdom IS
thy will is mine
on earth as it IS heaven
I give myself this daily bread
let me forgive my tresspasses
as I forgive those who tresspass against me.
Lead me not. Deliver me not. For I am neither a dog nor a pizza.
For mine is the kingdom and the power and the glory.

Amen.


lol.... and I realized "Why the **** am I sitting here for?" these people want a sugar Daddy... I, am prepared already to be a Mother :crown:


so


1. Who are you depending on when your finances are not meeting your needs?
me, knowing my family and friends are there for me.

2. Who are you turning to in times of grief?
family and friends

3. Who is the person that allows you to bridge the gap of impossible to impossible?
me.
4. What is keeping you from a relationship with Christ?
no one... Jesus is part of all of us... as we all are part of eachother... I have no problem with things Jesus said... as far as a personal relationship.... ummm... he's dead.

[IndigoNightSky]

Lead me not. Deliver me not. For I am neither a dog nor a pizza.

I love it! :veryweird I am defiantly going to have to share that one with my partner.

You know, if more people would realize personal responsibility for their world and their actions.....the world would be a much better place to live.

[Eleisawolf]

1. Who are you depending on when your finances are not meeting your needs?

Myself and hubby normally; frugality and a certain amount of self-sacrifice when things are really tight; and my family and friends--and yes, a little hope for providence or luck--when the need is great enough.


2. Who are you turning to in times of grief?

Heh... family and friends, and the knowledge that grief is a healthy process that we all go through and can come out of.


3. Who is the person that allows you to bridge the gap of impossible to impossible?

Honestly, I assumed she meant impossible to possible. And if something is impossible, that's okay. However, many more things are possible than we think as long as we have the confidence in ourselves to try them. That's what has allowed me to bridge that gap.


4. What is keeping you from a relationship with Christ?

Nothing. I have as much a relationship with Christ as I have with any and every pseudo-historical/mythological character who is designed to inspire contemplation and yet who is incompletely drawn. Two dimensional characters do not allow for much relationship, but what there can be is inner reflection on the meaning of the myth. Christ's myth is ultimately one of rebellion and social upheaval leading to the acceptance of many who were previously outcast by societal strictures of his era.

Windsmith is right--this is a tawdry attempt to lead people with circumstancial evidence. Folks who read this would do well to prepare with a little understanding of what to ignore when it comes to that.

On top of that, so many people are led to believe that they are incompetent to lead their own lives. Many are brought up to think that they have to depend on others for everything. It's a lesson that leads to many a cynic and many a dupe.

It's a shame, really.

Peace

[Eleisawolf]

I remember being in church once saying the Lord's prayer and found myself thinking,

"Our creator who art everywhere
hallowed be everyhing
thy kingdom IS
thy will is mine
on earth as it IS heaven
I give myself this daily bread
let me forgive my tresspasses
as I forgive those who tresspass against me.
Lead me not. Deliver me not. For I am neither a dog nor a pizza.
For mine is the kingdom and the power and the glory.

Amen.

Heh--my husband conducts a church choir in which I sing. It's a good church, with a lot of very open-minded people, but I still haven't really "come out of the broom closet" to most of them. When they say the Nicene Creed, which is the most important prayer in much of Christianity, I turn it into the Pantheist Creed. (http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm)

I believe in the Universe, the union and evolution of all things that are, seen and unseen.

I believe in the messengers who remind us of the unity of all things, who are also of the Universe. For we are all of the same origin. Because we come from the Universe, we are all star stuff. We are one with the Universe. The messengers are human, like us, though they walk different paths. They understand and share What Is, often at their own peril from those who do not understand and prefer the status quo. Sometimes they suffer and are lost, but there are always others who can return to remind us of What Is. When we receive the message, we can create unity and balance where we are.

I believe in the power of community to create unity and balance that lead to a life well lived and that feed the message. I believe in the communion of the minds, and in bringing up the little ones to understand What Is. I look for the cycle of life to continue, and to be present for all that will come.

Amen

Peace

[Diotima]

1. Myself, after that family and society (if I was in serious trouble). I don't believe that Universe is my secret bank- I have the main responsibility of tending my finances so that the ends meet. I must not buy things I can't afford, or take debt irresponsibly.

2. I find peace in knowing that sometimes bad things just happen- it does not mean that I have "sinned" or become a victim of Devil's attack or cosmic injustice. It's just part of life, and like Socrates, I believe it's better to suffer evil than to do evil myself. I often have the power to make good to be born out of evil, if only I can behave virtuously instead of letting my emotions to take control of my actions.
I agree that grief is healthy and appropriate, not something we should try to ward away at all costs.

3. Boy, am I self-centered. But I have to answer "myself" again. I try not to decide beforehand whether or not something is impossible or not. Often, saying that something is "impossible" is just a convenient way of dismissing an idea that is possible but requires hard work. So my motto is to leave making that judgement until afterwards.

4. He is dead, and based on what is written about him, I'm not a fan. Christianity has some good ideas, but I reject many of its "core" teachings.
I'm not fond of the idea that an adult person should spend her time groveling and whining for things from a "higher power" either. I believe Universe made me a being with two hands and a brain for a reason.

[Windsmith]

I believe in the Universe, the union and evolution of all things that are, seen and unseen.

I believe in the messengers who remind us of the unity of all things, who are also of the Universe. For we are all of the same origin. Because we come from the Universe, we are all star stuff. We are one with the Universe. The messengers are human, like us, though they walk different paths. They understand and share What Is, often at their own peril from those who do not understand and prefer the status quo. Sometimes they suffer and are lost, but there are always others who can return to remind us of What Is. When we receive the message, we can create unity and balance where we are.

I believe in the power of community to create unity and balance that lead to a life well lived and that feed the message. I believe in the communion of the minds, and in bringing up the little ones to understand What Is. I look for the cycle of life to continue, and to be present for all that will come.

Amen

PeaceOh, Eleisawolf, what a beautiful creed. I've been struggling for some time to fully articulate what I believe. I mean, I know what I believe, but how to put it into words? I never thought to frame it similarly to the Nicene or some other established creed like this. Brilliant!

[cheddarsox]

Hmmm...coming to the discussion late...it's been a wild week (sprained my back, husband returned from South America, and we're making an offer on a house today...) but tuning in with my own "ponderings".

First, a qualification...I'm going to take a shot at the questions, but my first question back to the poser of the questions is "Why does it have to be a Who?" I think that is a huge assumption, that the Divine, or whatever you want to call the powers that be...is a "who". Because I would always, first and foremost respond "nobody...and then explain."

1. Who are you depending on when your finances are not meeting your needs? Depends on how down and out we get. Mostly, my hubby and I rely on ourselves...working, scrimping, etc. If we really are in dire straights, we will turn to family for help, or take advantage of whatever programs are out there for aid. I've never been homeless, and only a couple of times without food. I would probably beg from strangers if I needed to. When things get really bad...I am reminded that I am mortal, and that many people die daily from lack of basic needs, that that is reality.

2. Who are you turning to in times of grief?

The Universe. I am comforted by how it goes on, always goes on, absorbing any change, reminding me that ultimately I am not lost, no matter what. And of course, I talk to friends, listen to music, etc. I know that nothing will save me from my grief, that it is a part of life, not a punishment or judgement, and I tune out any false promises, no matter the source, and turn to the one thing that never lies..REALITY. Which pretty much says, "yup, you are gonna hurt some, maybe a lot, but that is how it is."

3. Who is the person that allows you to bridge the gap of impossible to impossible?

If I've determined something is really impossible, I move on. It makes more sense to me to deal with What Is, than waste my life chasing phantoms. But I keep my eyes and ears open, because sometimes situations change and what was impossible now is possible. I don't ask anyone to change the nature of the Universe for me. It is pretty awesome, and there are more possibilities within it than I have time or energy to take advantage of. And I've realized that I don't have to have a specific set of experiences to have lived...any experience I have is part of living. I used to disregard a large percentage of my life because it didn't fit some blue print of what life was supposed to be...now I know better and experience What Is.

4. What is keeping you from a relationship with Christ?

Once upon a time, the answer to this question was "he doesn't want to play with me". I had done the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus into my heart, and apparently he said no.

But now...I have a relationship with Christ...as a character, as a person in history who left his thoughts and ideas behind. He has influenced my life, no doubt. He is part of a long list of people I will never meet, but experience through what they left behind, and what others say about them.

What keeps me from having a relationship with him like I have with folks in my daily life...is reality. Christ is long gone, but there are other teachers all around me...human and otherwise.

cheddar